I am thinking of starting up a hour based Shire trading system.
Many of us already help each other build houses, move in, fix stuff .... and often we are paid in smiles, thanks, drinks/meals, and future help in return.
I was thinking when someone helps you ... you could issue them Shire Karma Certificates ... or whatever we end up calling them. Residents of the Shire could do work for no $, just the hope that someone in the future will take the Certificates as payment for services later. It would not be backed by any currency or commodity. It would be seeded by those of us that would be willing to work for future return help.
What do you Shire Folk think?
Sounds like a good idea. You could also have it as an 'IOU' for work. So I do 10 hours work for you now...maybe in a year you do ten hours of work for me... And say, some amount of food...or something. Cool idea.
I can see it now - a big smiling Russell face on front
"In Russell We Trust"
He'd have to wear his cardinal outfit.
Cardinal outfit on the 1
Turban on the 5
Star of David on the 10
that really is a tremendous idea.
I wouldn't use something denominated in "hours" or which is meant to represent one hour of labor of any type. I might value roofing more highly than putting up drywall, for instance.
It will be denominated in hours.
You may or may not accept them or spend them.
Quote from: error on June 19, 2008, 02:39 PM NHFT
I wouldn't use something denominated in "hours" or which is meant to represent one hour of labor of any type. I might value roofing more highly than putting up drywall, for instance.
See the info on the Ithaca Hours site (http://ithacahours.com). It's in there somewhere - I'd point you to the exact page if I had it handy (it = how people handle the value variation issue)
Well we already have Shire Silver ... now we can have Shire Hours ... and maybe Shire Coffee Bean Portions
Since everyone will be printing their own money there would have to be some kind of standard for what information should be on the certificate. For example:
Date - It should have the date of when the certificate was created, this would probably be the day someone got paid for their work.
Debtor - The name of the person who created the certificate.
Recipient - Who was the initial recipient of of the certificate.
Work - A word or two describing the work performed. eg, "hung drywall"
Hours - how many hours this certificate is worth.
Then both the debtor and the recipient would sign it.
This way every certificate would be unique so that nobody could photo copy it in mass. If you make 100 copies of a certificate, sooner or later someone will notice you are using the same certificate many times...
Also, by having some kind of original ownership/birth information for the certificate there is any easy way to validate if the certificate is valid: Call up Joe and ask him if so and so hung drywall for them on this date and got paid 6 hours doing it.
The issue that error and jaqeboy brought up regarding hour equivalency of different work is definitely an issue. But I don't think there is any easy way to resolve it.
I guess it would be just like writing a check: date, from whom, to whom, how much and a memo. Then just like you can sign the back of a check and have someone else cash it, you can pass off your certificate to someone else.
When a certificate makes it back to the original creator it will be in their best interest to destroy it (the debt is now gone). So the system will be self-cleaning.
I would trade in silver or coffee beans.
the exit door for this thread is available. :)
yes ... this is not a new currency ... yes this will only work with friends and friends of friends .... yes this will only work with shire folk :)
Interesting idea Lex. I was thinking of having only online, but anyone could make pieces of paper. :)
Quote from: error on June 19, 2008, 06:24 PM NHFT
I would trade in silver or coffee beans.
Someone say coffee beans? I'll be bringing more AltJava to Burning Porcupine!
re the hours equivalency - Look on the Ithaca site. They essentially say that when they started their system, a prevailing wage was $10/hr. in their county, so the Ithaca Hour was informally recognized as worth $10. The idea, of course, is to de-couple the trade certificate from the national currency, though, to be more stable amongst trading partners when the national currency is going through whatever politically-created gyrations it might go through.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 19, 2008, 09:29 PM NHFT
yes ... this is not a new currency ... yes this will only work with friends and friends of friends .... yes this will only work with shire folk :)
Again, referring to Ithaca, they are kind of limited to their fellow Hour enthusiasts, though they don't have to be of the same political persuasion - the users are probably skewed to the same thinking on creating community institutions, though, of course.
Dave Grossack's Universal Trade Hour concept was to create a trade hour that would be usable anywhere and not limited to any one community. He has the project on hold, but he has printed a ton of certificates already and possibly could be convinced to re-start the project.
Lex's notes are kinda like IOU's and the idea of certificates is to make them not tied to any particular origin transaction. The sticky problem, though is how to issue them in a way that everyone perceives as fair. Then I think the governing board of the issuing authority has to operate transparently enough that people can feel confident that they're not flooding the market with the certs for their own gain.
Kevin Innes, who is up here from N.C., says community currencies are sweeping Germany, and I had heard that separately. He has more info on that if we want to tap him for that.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 19, 2008, 09:29 PM NHFT
Interesting idea Lex. I was thinking of having only online, but anyone could make pieces of paper. :)
A good model for online systems is the LETS concept.
If you guys would like me to add Shire-Hours as a unit of exchange (you know where) just let me know many USDs a Shire-Hour should be. The caveat is that the participants have to agree that their labor is worth roughly the same per hour.
Or maybe since inflation's going nuts, I will revamp the trading system and make silver ounces or Shire-Hours the base unit. If there will be Shire Silver and Shire-Hours, and a 1/2 ounce of silver is worth (very roughly) one hour's work, I could set it at a 1:2 ratio and quit mucking with it every time the spot prices change. In other words, screw USD.
Here's a quote from the Ithaca Hours site: http://www.ithacahours.org/
QuoteThe main concern a business often has when considering accepting HOURS is what will I do with the HOURS I get from customers or clients? The first thing to note is that you decide what rate of HOURS you will accept for purchases or services. Some member businesses accept 100% HOURS but many limit the HOURS they will accept.
You should calculate a rate of HOURS that is proportional to your ability to put them back into the local economy. In thinking about this you may be surprised to learn that in fact there are many outlets for the use of HOURS. If you look in the Directory you will find many other places you can easily spend HOURS. Or write us for help (info@ithacahours.org).
I think they are a good model to look to, since they have actually been doing it for so long.
Barterer - If you add Shire Hours, I will just use your system. People can give others hours on your ripple system or also issue their own paper.
The integrity will be in the issuing. In the ripple system, I can see who is saying they owe hours. If you hand out certificates, I also know who made them. We would not have a board or a central anything.
I wouldn't need the Shire Hours to be exchangable for anything but somebodys hours of work. But if the system needs to ... why not just use Silver as the base and equate it with one hour of work.
But I am only interested in getting the thing started and having it all payable in the issuing person's hours.
Awesome. I will give any traders currently on the system time to wrap up their business, then convert it to a Shire Hour system. Here is the new homepage message:
Welcome! Ripple.libertybrew.com is about to be simplified into a silver and Shire Hour trading system. You will still be able to chose your primary unit of exchange, and whether or not you allow your account to accept Shire-Hour/Silver conversions. The conversion rate will be 1 Ounce of Shire Silver for Two Shire-Hours of work. Please close out any debts or credits you may have with your trading partner(s) and I will restart the system from scratch once I'm confident that no one has left a significant pile of credit or debt outstanding.
Please do not make any new accounts (that you don't want cleared) until this message has changed and the Shire Hour system is ready.
Also, my header graphic kind of sucks. It is a 500x100 transparent png. If one of you artists (Dalebert, Dylboz?) would like to make a better, perhaps more Tolkienesque one, please do!
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/photorifficuser/logo3.png)
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 20, 2008, 06:31 AM NHFT
... why not just use Silver as the base and equate it with one hour of work....
The inherently cool thing about an hours system is it lets you issue certificates, whether paper or electronic, when no one has any silver or gold or other metal specie. Assume, for example, that the bad guys siezed all your metal money - it could happen, eh?
I just printed found a bunch of Alt Expo notes! Can't wait to see you Jack.
Sounds good Barterer.
Quote from: jaqeboy on June 20, 2008, 08:35 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 20, 2008, 06:31 AM NHFT
... why not just use Silver as the base and equate it with one hour of work....
The inherently cool thing about an hours system is it lets you issue certificates, whether paper or electronic, when no one has any silver or gold or other metal specie. Assume, for example, that the bad guys siezed all your metal money - it could happen, eh?
I was talking about his ripple system, since he might have had some limitations.
I need to give out some Shire Hours for the work done this weekend. These hours are good for my work or anyone olse who will accept them.
Kat was thinking we needed to add the word "karma" to the title. I like the simplicity of Shire Hours ... to match Shire Silver ... but I would like to add karma or positive karma. :)
Speaking of paper receipts, would you guys prefer to be emailed a receipt when you earn or redeem Shire Hours, or should it remain silent? Right now the whole thing's behind SSL (security comparable to when you use a credit card online) and no emails are sent, except to validate a new user. Some people may want paper receipts, but of course that would be clear text sent to you. I can't code well enough to make this user-selectable, so it has to be the same for all -- emails or no emails?
Karma... yes you should give me some ;D But if you're serious, a unit of karma could be added, given a ratio of karma to Ag or karma to Hours.
Looks like I'm going to tackle this Friday after work. Hopefully somebody will do a cool graphic by then. We could also change the stylesheets to something more hobbit-y once the more technical stuff is settled.
I like emails ... so people don't have to keep checking.
I was talking about putting the word Karma into the name ... on your system it would be simpler to call the Shire Hours.
I need to hand out some hours from last weekend.
Also ... just to let people know ... I can currently work for you and get paid in Shire Hours .... to be redeemed later when I need some work done. :)
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 24, 2008, 06:55 AM NHFT
I like emails ... so people don't have to keep checking.
Cool. I will re-enable emails as part of the overhaul. Paper receipts all around :)
The main title will still be part of the header graphic.. currently 500x100 but could be as large as 640x120.
I'd suggest that exchanging promissory notes based on silver, or anything else one might take in exchange for something, would be sufficient for what you guys are discussing. I try to encourage people to consider every transaction a trade. "Purchasing", exclusive of exchanging, is a myth. I assume it's a tool to allow us "spenders" to be measured, and taxed.
Anyone could write a promissory note, or a check, for an amount of silver, in exchange for some sort of services, or an IOU, gift certificate, etc., for the negotiated services. I can't remember all the factors that are necessary for the note to stand on it's own (legally, if that is a concern), but Lex Berezhny covered some of them. As well as a payor, payee, a date, a signature, and the amount of whatever negotiated needs to be listed... as well as something else I'm sure I'm forgetting. These can be endorsed, and exchanged. If they ever got back to the originators hands, s/he could destroy it, or simply exchange it again instead of creating a new one.
Exchanging IOUs, or promissory notes payable with silver, could be negotiated between parties for any service, or hours of labor, and I think it would suffice for what it is you guys are discussing with the Shire Hours concept. Like one of you already pointed out, you might be willing to promise an hour of yard work before you'd be willing to promise 10 minutes of plumbing work, or vice versa.
I found the eLiberty Dollar service to be very useful, while it lasted. I'm not entirely sure what Shire Silver will become, but I'd love to see that type of service available again.
A friend of mine read my post, and simplified my point a bit...
All we need is the ability to contract, and a sound medium of exchange, like silver, or silver backed currency. The "Hours" is a better then FRNs, but inferior to what we'd have with barter, and real currency.
Quote from: LotharSNL on June 25, 2008, 02:54 AM NHFT
All we need is the ability to contract, and a sound medium of exchange, like silver, or silver backed currency. The "Hours" is a better then FRNs, but inferior to what we'd have with barter, and real currency.
Sounds like a good idea ... and another thread.
I will be doing this Shire Hours idea. You can do something like Shire Silver IOU's or something. :)
It all seems like complications on the simple concept of exchanging precious metals. I have a hard time understanding why people want to complicate something that's pretty simple. *shrug*
The Shire Hours don't have anything to do with metals. :dontknow:
Thank you. I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. What I was describing is relevant to what you're talking about, though. If your goal is to specifically create that type of currency, then what I mentioned isn't relevant, except I guess to encourage the use of some sort of email/text option of exchange.
If you wanted something to facilitate the type of exchange you described without specifically being a labor based currency, my point was that there is no need to create anything to exchange what we already have, whether it be Shire Silver, or anything else. "Shire Hours" would be another option of currency, such as a Liberty Dollar, or presumably Shire Silver, certainly all of which would be favorable to FRNs. I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 25, 2008, 05:55 AM NHFT
Quote from: LotharSNL on June 25, 2008, 02:54 AM NHFT
All we need is the ability to contract, and a sound medium of exchange, like silver, or silver backed currency. The "Hours" is a better then FRNs, but inferior to what we'd have with barter, and real currency.
Sounds like a good idea ... and another thread.
I will be doing this Shire Hours idea. You can do something like Shire Silver IOU's or something. :)
Shire Silver hasn't happened yet. Some people use silver and gold to exchange, which is simple and time tested. The Shire Hours concept is just that ... hours. It will not make sense to some people, but will be cool for others. It doesn't envolve anything but doing hours of work without any immediate exchange. It is a fairly unique Shire thang. 8)
Quote from: dalebert on June 25, 2008, 07:19 AM NHFT
It all seems like complications on the simple concept of exchanging precious metals. I have a hard time understanding why people want to complicate something that's pretty simple. *shrug*
I totally agree. I use silver already for some things. I even think already circulating gold and silver are great instead of making new stuph.
Shire Hours are for when you don't have any gold or silver, but you need or have hours. :D
Quote from: LotharSNL on June 25, 2008, 12:42 AM NHFT
I'd suggest that exchanging promissory notes based on silver, or anything else one might take in exchange for something, would be sufficient for what you guys are discussing. I try to encourage people to consider every transaction a trade. "Purchasing", exclusive of exchanging, is a myth. I assume it's a tool to allow us "spenders" to be measured, and taxed.
..
Exchanging IOUs, or promissory notes payable with silver, could be negotiated between parties for any service, or hours of labor, and I think it would suffice for what it is you guys are discussing with the Shire Hours concept. Like one of you already pointed out, you might be willing to promise an hour of yard work before you'd be willing to promise 10 minutes of plumbing work, or vice versa.
I found the eLiberty Dollar service to be very useful, while it lasted. I'm not entirely sure what Shire Silver will become, but I'd love to see that type of service available again.
Ripple will be "Shire Silver ready" in the sense that users will have the option to trade primarily in hours, or primarily in silver, and whether or not they will allow conversions at the rate of 2 Shire Hours per Oz. Silver. So either means of exchange can be left out if a user wants to keep it simple. The 2:1 ratio will not change, unlike before when the spot prices of metals would change and users would see the total (USD) value in their account change. Having only two units, and keeping them at a fixed ratio should make for less confusion and more confidence in the system. :)
cool
Update: Dylboz has agreed to do the new title graphic for the Shire Hour :wav: Ripple system!
Also, no more mandatory encryption (with the webfaction certificate) but you can still use https:// if you want to.
This is looking good so far.. I'm thinking beta tests Saturday afternoon, but will let you know if I hit any snags.
I was testing it today and got this error:
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 26, 2008, 06:07 AM NHFT
I was testing it today and got this error:
Yep, I would expect that, since I just changed the password on the mailserver and did not inform ripple of that.. will fix later. Guess I didn't need the warning about new accounts after all.
Meanwhile, I got it hooked up to www.shirehours.com so will change the homepage message to inform everyone of the move!
Edit: Ok I fixed the email thing, but remember, all accounts will be wiped out when I clear the database this weekend. Also, there are references to "libertybrew" and "ripple.libertybrew" all over the place, including those emails.. I need to comb through everything and make it consistent. Once I have everything debugged, I'll close ripple.libertybrew and make a thread announcing that shirehours.com is open for business.
cool
I have some hours to give out.
Hey, would you guys like to post the info on Shire Silver on one of the AltExpo.org pages?
I envision in the alternative money category that there would be 2 branches: paper and metal, and then within each branch would be all the various paper systems, then all the various metal-based systems. It seems like there should be a 3rd category for exchange/clearing systems, like barter systems, LETS and Ripple systems.
Oops, I mean Shire Hours... ;D
watchit Jacqyboy .... we might have to invent Shire Smackdowns for those that slip up
Quote from: jaqeboy on June 26, 2008, 04:19 PM NHFT
Hey, would you guys like to post the info on Shire Silver on one of the AltExpo.org pages?
Sure! I have not studied Altexpo.org yet, but definitely will give it a look this evening. I think the main reasons ripple.libertybrew fell into disuse was lack of exposure, as well as being too complicated (trying to integrate gold, silver, and USD when the value of all three fluctuate greatly). As soon as the site is ready to launch, I'll look to you and Altexpo to help get the word out. Thanks!
OK, well here's the basics on the AltExpo concept, which is definitely not fleshed out yet: We started out offering a page to each presenter to post info on his topic at an AltExpo event. Conceptually, that grew to the idea of cataloging and indexing all the alternatives to mainstream stuff that's available in New-Hampshire. Then if that was your choice of paths, ie, "I want to get out of the corrupted mainstream, where do I go for food, medical care, alt. money, etc.?" AltExpo.org would be the place to go.
It's being set up as a co-operatively-created site, ie, if you are to be the guiding guru on a particular topic, you get authorship of that page and can run with it (as long as you keep it clean and don't openly advocate anything illegal). I guess there could even be competing gurus and let the readership market decide. On your page, you can just copy and paste stuff in, link to other pages, create a whole new thing for the AltExpo pages, etc.
There are also internal blogs, fora, and a host of other features, some of which are not turned on yet. The look and functionality of the site are in development and evolving, but it'll stay live the whole time and will change all the time. So, your input would be appreciated!
Just go to the site and create a username and you get sent the usual welcome email with a starter password and a link to go change it to one of your choosing. Then if you are going to take on a topic, the IT staff here set you up with a page where you'll have sole authorship and we give you an @AltExpo.org email (forwarded) account. We'll try to keep up with the indexing, etc. Meanwhile, I have to clear out all the robot signups and send out a welcome email to all signed-up site members.
Jump on in - extremely low traffic right now (never sent out a mass emailing yet) & new pages of info being slowly added.
Cool, thanks for the explanation. :) I made an account on Altexpo and will add a Shire Hours page when it's time to attract people to the site.
In concept :)
Quote from: Friday on June 27, 2008, 12:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 19, 2008, 05:48 PM NHFT
Well we already have Shire Silver ...
We do?
Yea ... the phrase
That is part of the reason I want to set up something that has only hours ... to be different than other ideas. I also don't want to wait until it is perfect ... otherwise we might never do it. I am only waiting for Barterer to give out my first Shire Hours. If that takes too long, I will have to give them out here soon. :)
Considering all I did in G-town was bogart bugspray and burgers, I'm thinking I'm not getting any Shire Hours. :icon_pirat:
you might already owe some ;)
Naw. After I posted that, I remembered that I supplied a whole box of sparklers, a bag of cookies, and a bunch of corn on the cob (nutritious *and* entertaining :D ). I'm even steven. 8)
oh yea ... don't tell anyone what we did with the cobs
the Free Town Project doesn't exist and nobody talks about the mini corn cobs
(http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2008/03/funny-pictures-orange-cat-eats-corn1.jpg)
OMG... that exact photo was discussed at FBPWPWSSC. Who's been talking? I thought what happens in Grafton stays in Grafton. >:(
Quote from: Friday on June 27, 2008, 08:58 PM NHFT
OMG... that exact photo was discussed at FBPWPWSSC. Who's been talking? I thought what happens in Grafton stays in Grafton. >:(
(http://www.infowars.net/pictures/dec07/201207sat.jpg)
And for closer work
(http://unitedcats.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/cat_satellite.jpg)
good work patk .... we also need to throw people off the scent
Quote from: Barterer on June 22, 2008, 09:21 PM NHFT
Speaking of paper receipts, would you guys prefer to be emailed a receipt when you earn or redeem Shire Hours, or should it remain silent? Right now the whole thing's behind SSL (security comparable to when you use a credit card online) and no emails are sent, except to validate a new user. Some people may want paper receipts, but of course that would be clear text sent to you. I can't code well enough to make this user-selectable, so it has to be the same for all -- emails or no emails?
For those who do want security would it be possible to use pgp / gnupg for the outgoing mail?
Quote from: 41mag on June 28, 2008, 03:42 PM NHFT
For those who do want security would it be possible to use pgp / gnupg for the outgoing mail?
That would be more difficult than just shutting them off, which I can do.. for everybody or nobody. As a gnupg fan myself, I made that very suggestion to the developers months ago, and it is cued up as a development "ticket." I'll check for new updates and keep Shire Hours current, but I'm not holding my breath for the pgp thing.
Hey, barterer,
Are you monitoring this thread? After all the workshops and meetings this weekend I've got some feedback for ya.
Jaqeboy
I didn't know there was a thread for this. How do we seek work? I might offer my laboring shire hours for food if I cannot find a job right away when I move up.
Quote from: jaqeboy on December 15, 2008, 09:10 PM NHFT
Hey, barterer,
Are you monitoring this thread? After all the workshops and meetings this weekend I've got some feedback for ya.
Jaqeboy
Hey Jack, I hear ya. Let me know if there are other mods beyond the ones we did yesterday.
Quote from: Organjic on December 16, 2008, 04:25 AM NHFT
How do we seek work? I might offer my laboring shire hours for food if I cannot find a job right away when I move up.
I think the "trading post" area of this board would be the best place to start.
Quote from: Organjic on December 16, 2008, 04:25 AM NHFT
I didn't know there was a thread for this. How do we seek work? I might offer my laboring shire hours for food if I cannot find a job right away when I move up.
This is one of my feedback items from the workshops, too. Some people suggested we needed a directory of who would accept Shire Hours and who would pay in Shire. My first-pass answer was that the money system is separate from the employment and merchant system and it might not be appropriate to mix them. I assumed there weren't any modules built into the Ripple Pay open software that could just be "switched on" to add that sort of feature (noting who are users of the system). I also noted that the fact that all the users are not noted might be a security feature.
There was talk of forming Community Action Networks (CAN), ie Bristol CAN, that would help promote community currencies and possibly publish such a directory, with an online, frequently-updated, version, which could include various search tools, etc. The local CAN would serve the function of promoting the local involvement and encouraging in-network trading to promote mutual support, etc. I'll keep in touch with Kevin Innes on this as the proposal for that model is developed.
We will be starting some online list for discussion of use of Alt. Currencies and comparing notes between different systems and locales.
One other feedback item:
Some people didn't want to sign up, saying "Well, I don't really live near here, so I wouldn't be doing any business with you people over here."
So, my 2 answers were:
1. You can still sign up on Shire Hours and promote it locally where you live.
2. Maybe John could/would create another customization (Boston Hours, for example) for your local area and we could possibly link up together for inter-networking (where have I heard that word before?)
Which is the better answer?
The points raised in your last two posts call for different solutions, that's for sure. For things like CANs, ads or directories, everyone can see everyone else's listings. So if all the listings for all areas were dumped into one massive pile, it would soon become cluttered with listings mostly out-of-area and useless to any given user. Craigslist has solved this elegantly by assigning a subdomain to each city, e.g. austin.craigslist.org and boston.craigslist.org. So if say, the "trading post" area of this board got too crowded, the solution would be to divvy it up, one child board per area.
For the other situation, where you have many users out of range of each other, I'd say #1 is the better answer. The onus is on the users to form their own local connections, and the system works just the same in any locality. Also, ShireHours will never get cluttered by useless connections because unconnected members are invisible to each other. For example, I'm only connected (directly) to 10 other users, so it looks nice and tidy for me.. if I didn't administer it, I wouldn't see the other 51. So I don't think the system needs further division by area.
Back to the 1st question though, it would be easy to set up something like bbs.shirehours.com with sub-forums specific to each area. I'd have done that already, except that boards are a dime a dozen these days, and I figure people don't want yet another forum. But you're the people-person :) so let me know if you think a board would be popular, and if so, what areas should have their own section. Hmm.. network.shirehours.com has a nice professional ring to it.
Quote from: Barterer on December 16, 2008, 06:27 PM NHFTHmm.. network.shirehours.com has a nice professional ring to it.
Barterer and Jack, this is ultima-cool!
Quote from: Lumpy on December 16, 2008, 06:38 PM NHFT
Quote from: Barterer on December 16, 2008, 06:27 PM NHFTHmm.. network.shirehours.com has a nice professional ring to it.
Barterer and Jack, this is ultima-cool!
Yeah, Lumpy, I'm going to extend you some credit in Shire Hours to set up a connection with you. Look for the email.
Hey, you and Aubie staying warm over the hill over 'dere?
we also need some sort of way of letting people know we are willing to connect with them
I can't send out invites to everyone
Quote from: jaqeboy on December 17, 2008, 12:17 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lumpy on December 16, 2008, 06:38 PM NHFT
Quote from: Barterer on December 16, 2008, 06:27 PM NHFTHmm.. network.shirehours.com has a nice professional ring to it.
Barterer and Jack, this is ultima-cool!
Yeah, Lumpy, I'm going to extend you some credit in Shire Hours to set up a connection with you. Look for the email.
Hey, you and Aubie staying warm over the hill over 'dere?
Gracias Jack!
I got the email but am having a hard time figuring the thing out. I have chronic PBS (Pea Brain Syndrome).
Quote from: Russell Kanning on December 22, 2008, 06:38 AM NHFT
we also need some sort of way of letting people know we are willing to connect with them
I can't send out invites to everyone
You can do a mass invite, but of course you have to know all their email addresses. Log in, see the box below
"First, enter the email addresses of people you would like to connect to:"
-----------
guy1@hisdomain.com [enter]
someotherdude@gmailorwherever.com [enter]
...
-----------
Then hit the [next] button to send all the invites at once.
Quote from: Lumpy on December 24, 2008, 02:16 PM NHFT
Gracias Jack!
I got the email but am having a hard time figuring the thing out. I have chronic PBS (Pea Brain Syndrome).
It's not you, many others find it confusing. Jack and I are working almost every day to make the messages clearer and generally simplify things. The main thing to remember is that shire hours are a form of IOUs. So you have to give someone a credit limit for them to "pay" you shire hours or ounces of silver. I changed it so that the value for your partner's limit is filled in by default with the limit he gave you. But you still have to hit [save changes] to accept it.
Quote from: Alex Free Market on December 26, 2008, 03:39 PM NHFT
The FSP's Anarcho Jesse has come up with his own little currency system, Anarcho Jesse Labor Notes. I suspect most of you guys know about this already, though.
Not sure if it really worked out for him, but I applaud his ingenuity and entrepeneurship, and hope more people come up with these kinds of things,
I received one and I spent it with Jesse - satisfied customer of the AJLN's.
Here's a good article that just came out that ought to make people more comfortable using Shire Hours. Everybody's doing it, according to Time Magazine!
Alternative Currencies Grow in Popularity (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1865467,00.html)
By Judith D. Schwartz Sunday, Dec. 14, 2008
Most of us take for granted that those rectangular green slips of paper we keep in our wallets are inviolable: the physical embodiment of value. But alternative forms of money have a long history and appear to be growing in popularity. It's not merely barter or primitive means of exchange like seashells or beads. Beneath the financial radar, in hip U.S. towns or South African townships, in shops, markets and even banks, people throughout the world are exchanging goods and services via thousands of currency types that look nothing like official tender.
...
Also, of possible interest...
a new Yahoo group for discussion of alternative currencies, meant for discussion of how to start one, implement/promote it locally and make it work, ie, preferably not used for endless arguments and whining ;)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ALTCURRENCIES/
A new social networking group set up by Tom Kennedy of Ottawa (speaker at AltExpo #0) for "Usury-Free Creatives": http://usuryfreecreatives.ning.com/
I know Catherine Austin Fitts (http://solari.com/) was also promoting local currencies - I'll look for info on her Solari Circles (http://www.solariactionnetwork.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=62) to see how that works and see if that's a place for use of Shire Hours.
Barterer, this talk on barter might be of interest - haven't seen the whole thing yet:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5455605137215634518&ei=v6EjScWsBIeQrAKwoJ3dAw&q=Catherine%2BAustin%2BFitts
Catherine Austin Fitts speaking at an IRTA Barter Convention, 9 Oct 08 - key word: "disintermediation"
(International Reciprocal Trade Association (http://www.irta.com/))
It's all heavy background up until about 42:30
"...networks of trust..." at 50:42
"...alternative currencies..." at 52:25
"...shift to local..." at 1:06:45
"...reduce your dependency on large organizations..." at 1:07:12
"...the good news is you're the leader - the bad news is you're the leader..." at 1:12:00
"...this financial system is fundamentally fraudulent - I want out..." at 1:17:53
She talks about a widespread "culture of fraud" (the central banking/warfare model) and how our goal should be to get back to honest dealings...
Interesting stuff!
Thanks for the links, Jack. I think I will join the yahoo group and try to watch the video soon. In trying to balance reading/absorbing and working, I have to dump a forum or news source for each new one.
so ... what are the latest changes to the shirehours website?
I just finished a transaction with Jaqe.
I think some new people know how it works after yesterdays presentation at the altexpo.
Anyone want to post that they are part of the system here and I can try to connect with you? I don't know how many people are part of the system.
I'd like to see a logo on people's avatar or signature or website that they accept Shire Hours. Something like this:
we could put a small version of that in our sigs
Smaller version might look like:
i cant see it
How 'bout now?
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on March 08, 2009, 11:03 PM NHFT
How 'bout now?
I just hijacked Aubern's user account and altered her picture in support of your idea to use that in our pics. How is this one? (see profile pic).
>:D
Kurt
Quote from: research101 on March 08, 2009, 11:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on March 08, 2009, 11:03 PM NHFT
How 'bout now?
I just hijacked Aubern's user account and altered her picture in support of your idea to use that in our pics. How is this one? (see profile pic).
>:D
Kurt
I'm everywhere! I'm everywhere! >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
I need my picture to be bigger and have one of those shirehours swirls with the words on it
.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on March 09, 2009, 07:05 AM NHFT
.
I used a 52 inch high def TV with a microscope but I saw that Lloyd.
Avatars are too small to get the words in.
perfect thanks
I like the look
I signed up the other day.
what email address did you use to sign up. I want to set up a connection with you, RR.
Lauren, could you insert one of those little doobies on my avatar, the guy with the megaphone. There's a good blank space in the lower right corner...
Quote from: jaqeboy on March 09, 2009, 09:36 PM NHFT
Lauren, could you insert one of those little doobies on my avatar, the guy with the megaphone. There's a good blank space in the lower right corner...
Kinda like this?
Yeah, but I'm going to need new glasses to read that text ;)
Thanks, Tackle!
Quote from: jaqeboy on March 09, 2009, 10:12 PM NHFT
Yeah, but I'm going to need new glasses to read that text ;)
Yeah, that logo may need a few more improvements. Maybe just the swirl and no coin.
I am using the same email here and in the ShireHours system.
Me too.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 19, 2008, 05:48 PM NHFT
Well we already have Shire Silver ... now we can have Shire Hours ... and maybe Shire Coffee Bean Portions
And shire License plates...
Yes.. this is really me this time. I'm not hijacked anymore...
That there plate ain't registered prahperly lady! I'm gunna fine ewe sum sheriush hours !!!
thatsa even betta there mista..... ;)
Quote from: Russell Kanning on March 08, 2009, 09:07 AM NHFT
so ... what are the latest changes to the shirehours website?
Sorry for the late reply, I just got back to Austin and caught some ZZZs.. suffice to say
DAMN UNITED AIRLINES SUCKS!! so I'm a day late an a dollar short, BUT:
network.shirehours.com is up and running. New members can be accepted by me or Zaman (and I bet you can guess who Za
MAN is ;) ) who is also an administrator and can create new boards.. the first of which will be a "suggestion box" to determine the overall structure of the forum. I'm thinking the boards should be first by trade, then by geographical area. Concerning the public and private areas, maybe ads should go in a publicly viewable area, while the working out of deals, vendor ratings and such should be members only.
I need to fix a minor bug concerning the table of intermediaries given when a chain is necessary. It does not give the whole list (as I erroneously said in the presentation) only the trusted friend on your end of the chain is given. Actually, for privacy it's better that way, so maybe I'll just change it to say "Account" rather than "Account
S"
A dedicated SSL certificate will be rented, thanks to Dave's kind donation, and upon his return email I'll acknowledge him by name on the homepage.. which needs updating, now that AltExpo #3 is past and needs to be trumpeted as a rousing success!! Also will link the network from the homepage.
Also high on the priority list is for me to offer out @shirehours email accounts. If I can get just 50 such addresses going for a nominal fee of say, 2 bucks a year, that would keep the SSL cert, domain registration and host paid for.
Why don't I have any of this accomplished yet? Because I got home to a dead internet connection and have to sneak a dialup connection from the office.. sorry for being incommunicado but will get this stuff done soon.
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on March 08, 2009, 10:14 PM NHFT
I'd like to see a logo on people's avatar or signature or website that they accept Shire Hours. Something like this:
HaHa that's perfect!! I'm gonna put that on my avatar shortly.
Quote from: Barterer on March 10, 2009, 07:05 PM NHFT
...offer out @shirehours email accounts. If I can get just 50 such addresses going for a nominal fee of say, 2 bucks a year, that would keep the SSL cert, domain registration and host paid for.
...
Can I pay in Shire Hours??
Quote from: jaqeboy on March 11, 2009, 12:20 AM NHFT
Quote from: Barterer on March 10, 2009, 07:05 PM NHFT
...offer out @shirehours email accounts. If I can get just 50 such addresses going for a nominal fee of say, 2 bucks a year, that would keep the SSL cert, domain registration and host paid for.
...
Can I pay in Shire Hours??
;)
Quote from: Barterer on March 10, 2009, 07:05 PM NHFT
I need to fix a minor bug concerning the table of intermediaries given when a chain is necessary. It does not give the whole list (as I erroneously said in the presentation) only the trusted friend on your end of the chain is given. Actually, for privacy it's better that way, so maybe I'll just change it to say "Account" rather than "AccountS"
I think this is better for privacy of all concerned. You only really
need to know the ones that you've set up accounts with, not the intermediaries... so, you shouldn't be giving out any info that's not needed!
PS: my account email address is shirehours@ijaq.net. I'd love to set up accounts with more people - I don't have enough yet!
Quote from: Barterer on March 10, 2009, 07:05 PM NHFT
Sorry for the late reply, I just got back to Austin and caught some ZZZs.. suffice to say DAMN UNITED AIRLINES SUCKS!!
I don't fly on airlines with no profit motive ... who also fly their planes into sides of buildings.
Quote from: jaqeboy on March 11, 2009, 01:19 AM NHFT
Quote from: Barterer on March 10, 2009, 07:05 PM NHFT
I need to fix a minor bug concerning the table of intermediaries given when a chain is necessary. It does not give the whole list (as I erroneously said in the presentation) only the trusted friend on your end of the chain is given. Actually, for privacy it's better that way, so maybe I'll just change it to say "Account" rather than "AccountS"
I think this is better for privacy of all concerned. You only really need to know the ones that you've set up accounts with, not the intermediaries... so, you shouldn't be giving out any info that's not needed!
I agree.
Quote from: jaqeboy on March 11, 2009, 12:20 AM NHFT
Can I pay in Shire Hours??
Sure, just as soon as we find a domain registrar and certificate authority that will take them! One day my friend, one day. :icon_pirat:
Hopefully my home internet connection will be back up this evening so I can connect on my computer with all the goodies (FTP client, server login shell, etc.) and get
some little thing done...
Ha ha! Cute swirls in your avatar, Barterer.
Has it been discussed how shire hours can be used as change in silver transactions.
I think this could be an extremely useful benefit.
good point, Freeman. It seems perfect for all the odd, small change amounts. Since it's set up with an exchange rate in there from Shire Hours to silver ounces already, that makes it a natural. It never refers to dollars at all and tries to get us back to thinking in terms of something relatively stable (metal commodity: silver).
Is there any shire hour specific literature? If not I think that there needs to be a tri-fold made before the liberty forum. I'm thinking about making it.
Quote from: freeman4liberty on October 22, 2009, 09:22 PM NHFT
Is there any shire hour specific literature? If not I think that there needs to be a tri-fold made before the liberty forum. I'm thinking about making it.
You should talk to barterer, the developer of Shire Hours. I haven't seen him on here lately and haven't talked to him either. He came to Liberty Forum the last time to present at AltExpo on Shire Hours. I bet he'd love to get something out there. I'll talk to him to see if he's coming up again. You can just write him at barterer@shirehours.com, too.
An AP story about time banks that is very popular on yahoo right now.
`Banks' allow members to pay with time, not cash
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100603/ap_on_re_us/us_banking_time (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100603/ap_on_re_us/us_banking_time)
QuoteScores of time banks are being started in hard-hit communities around the nation — and thousands of devotees are helping each other survive tough financial times.
"Even though we were planning to do something small and simple, it takes a lot of money, time and effort. Through time banking, I got a lot of help," said Villacreses, who belongs to Community Exchange, a 10-year-old time bank in Allentown, where 500 members offer everything from electrical work to tai chi.
As the economy recovers amid stubbornly high unemployment, newer banks with names like "Back On Track" have joined Community Exchange in offering an alternative to cash. Time Banks USA, an advocacy group in Washington, says interest in time banking has surged: About 115 now operate nationwide, with 100 more in early stages of development. Membership fluctuates but is believed to total more than 15,000.
This website is down right now but will likely be back up when the story becomes less popular, www.timebanks.org/ (http://www.timebanks.org/)
It has a forum and even a directory.
"Time banks" sound like a great idea, but when I see the words "Social Justice," proposals to control me are just over the hill. As to time banks--thanx, but no thanx!
i want my social justice!
i want it now!
Quote from: Sam A. Robrin on June 03, 2010, 06:54 PM NHFT
"Time banks" sound like a great idea...
Yeah, time banks seem very, very similar to Shire Hours except for the system is nationally know and used by 1000s of people and effort isn't put into separating it from the government. So if you are in a time bank system, the government may be able to figure out if you didn't pay income taxes on the barter.
I guess the Shire Hours is just a free market take on the time bank system. Unfortunately, it hasn't really taken off like the regular time bank system has.
The biggest and most active "time bank" that I know of nearby is in Portland, Maine. They usually have a presence at Common Ground Fair in the fall. They have changed their name, though, to an "hour exchange", because "bank" is one of those words that has a legal meaning that's touchy.
Hour Exchange Portland (http://www.hourexchangeportland.org/)
The guy I've talked to about it (Terry, a board member, I believe) told me about the need to make the name change to eliminate the word "bank".
Not sure if they (HEP) have an office or if the record-keeping is done at someone's home, or what, but I think an essential difference between them and Shire Hours is that SH is completely computerized and it is on a central server. Ryan Fugger, the developer of Ripple Pay, which Shire Hours is an implementation of, is working on a de-centralized peer-to-peer version. I don't know the status of that, but if we can get barterer back on board this forum, he'd know the answer to that.
The Shire Hours system does not refer at any point to a national currency, but is essentially pegged to silver, 1SH = 0.5 ozAg.
The success of any of these grassroots systems is going to depend on the promotional effort put into it. John B. (barterer) is still out-of-state, so isn't able to promote SH in person here, though he did give a presentation of it at Liberty Forum '09 in Nashua. I've promoted it at an AltExpo community currency all-day workshop in Bristol back in early '09, as well. With the joint effort of a bunch of us, we can make the system more usable by recruiting and training more folks in the use of the system. There was talk of a series of YouTube training videos, and with the addition of links to YT vids, that could be even more workable. These vids could be linked to the FAQ section of the Shire Hours site.
There was a presentationn at AltExpo#5 at Liberty Forum '10 and there will be another talk at AltExpo#6 at PorcFest upcoming about Shire Hours, so be sure to check that out if you're interested. The schedule will be online in a week and a printed schedule will be in each PorcFest info packet.
Quote from: jaqeboy on June 10, 2010, 01:10 PM NHFT
...The success of any of these grassroots systems is going to depend on the promotional effort put into it...
PS: Portland Hour Exchange did have a moneybags sugar daddy to help finance promotional efforts and they did have a community of co-opers that they overlaid over (existing mailing list). We could learn a lot from them and we could have them in to speak some time.
Here's Darren's talk on Shire Hours at AltExpo#6 at PorcFest'010:
Time Money - Shire Hours (part 1) Porcfest 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=128oazeyC_Y#ws)
Our first video uploaded to the AltExpo YouTube channel! Many more to come in the following couple of weeks!
(Thanks again, Puke, for the awesome artwork, which we use extensively still!)
--- much later ---
Y'all still using ShireHours? Not much bandwidth is getting consumed. I guess I'll shut er down if it is going unused.. probably got overshadowed by Bitcoin, eh? ;)
maybe
I have not used the site in a long time
Know anyone who might want the domain? I'd rather hand it over to someone in "the liberty community" than let it go to a domain squatter who'd just put a fake search engine on it.
it seems that any of us that might be using shire hours don't need a system to keep track of them, since we are not using them anonymously our with 3rd parties.
That's cool. Had a good run. 8)
I changed the homepage to read:
=======
ShireHours.com will close in mid to late July 2012.
Shire hours has fallen into disuse and is far exceeded in sophistication (and membership) by Bitcoin. That would be a good system to move your business to.
Ryan Fugger has put together a great project page with a video that explains how the Ripple system works. If you wish to continue using this type of system, simply establish an account at Ripplepay.com.
Thanks,
Barterer
========
thanks for the help
Wait! - you still there, Barterer? I didn't see these messages...
Quote from: Barterer on June 05, 2012, 05:20 PM NHFT
That's cool. Had a good run. 8)
I changed the homepage to read:
=======
ShireHours.com will close in mid to late July 2012.
...
Well, huh... A guy last night at the Quill was all excited when I told him that we had a system called Shire Hours! He loves the Time Banking concept. Not sure anyone really wants to revive a project like this...
I think a lot of us left here are probably more familiar with nap hour, not that there's anything wrong with making agreements for trading labor.
and I always like the hour and silver combo