OK here is an idea. What if we were to start blurring the line somewhat between barter and money? What if we were, simply by accepting them, to turn more and more things into currency? I think this could make each of our "dollars" go a bit further for reasons I'll get to in a minute.
Say for example five or six of us (maybe even one of us) were to start accepting wheat pennies, in lots, at their current trade value. Two years ago this was apparently three cents per coin, now if e-bay is any indication it's around thirteen cents per coin. That seems a little shocking but anyway...
Say I am willing to accept wheat pennies at a thirteen cent valuation, for whatever it is you want to buy from me. Well that means that you can now feel comfortable buying wheat pennies at eleven cents from your local coin shop, knowing you'll be able to make a slight profit the next time you buy something from me. That being the case, you no longer need to take a hit for shipping or e-bay fees, or worry about how much of a cut the coin dealers will take when you re-sell. Assuming 5% ebay fees, 5% shipping cost and 5% coin dealer cut....that means wheat pennies now have 15% more value for you than for average people. Factor in my thirteen cent valuation, and it's now clearly worth your while to have wheaties.
If you spend the coins soon you get the quick markup. If the coins end up sitting around for a long time, they probably hold or gain value...unlike Fed notes. Sure you can do this type of thing with precious metals but why not diversify? Then you can perhaps choose to spend whichever acccepted currency is best or most profitible for you at that moment.
The same benefits - and new ones - could apply to other types of "currency." In times of physical crisis other things are used as money...matches, toilet paper, water filters. But if they could be used in normal times as currency, then all of us would feel comfortable owning a lot more of them, right? Because they would be liquid. And we'd have them in quantity the day the spit hit the fan.
For this reason, I think I would like to start accepting some of these kinds of things in lieu of currency and metals. It's just a matter of setting a valuation.
What kind of things would *you* like to be able to spend as though they were currency?
What kind of things would you accept as currency and at what valuation?
What kinds of problems would make this difficult to do, and how would they be overcome?
What other advantages or disadvantages do you see?
There is another interesting one I've just thought of...but one thing at a time.
I like the idea ... and use it a little. The gold and silver seem to work well because they don't spoil easily and you can carry them pretty easy.
I think that what becomes widely accepted as currency depends a lot on which particular shit hits which particular fan.
So having a wide range of alternatives to choose from is a very good idea.
It's even conceivable that circumstances could arise in which gold and silver will be much less valuable than one would ordinarily think. What people value will change when the shit hits the fan. We could all wind up using live chickens as money. Or blank DVD-R's. Or wool. Or ammunition.
Quote from: error on April 06, 2007, 09:49 AM NHFT
I think that what becomes widely accepted as currency depends a lot on which particular shit hits which particular fan.
So having a wide range of alternatives to choose from is a very good idea.
It's even conceivable that circumstances could arise in which gold and silver will be much less valuable than one would ordinarily think. What people value will change when the shit hits the fan. We could all wind up using live chickens as money. Or blank DVD-R's. Or wool. Or ammunition.
Or Hershey bars, toilet paper, pens, paper and stamps.
Quote from: error on April 06, 2007, 09:49 AM NHFT
We could all wind up using live chickens as money. Or ammunition.
That'll be 2 Cocks and a Hen Ma'am.
And 2 eggs are your change.
Have a nice day.
Actually anything that anyone is willing to trade for could become currency. I would like to have a stockpile of cheap liquor and cigarettes. I bet there are alot of people who would accept those as currency. (in a SHTF scenario)
Those of us who heat with oil could use biodiesel as heating fuel. So, if someone wanted to install a biodiesel reactor, he could purchase vegetable oils from others, convert them to fuel, and then trade the fuel for goods and services. Of course, maybe he needs a new boiler, so I install one for him in exchange for 3000 gallons of fuel. Trouble is, I have no place to store 3000 gallons of oil, and he doesn't produce that much at one time. So I agree to accept payments of 100 gallons a month for the next two-and-a-half years.
I think we just invented a bank... :)
Joe
Quote from: sandm000 on April 06, 2007, 10:16 AM NHFT
Quote from: error on April 06, 2007, 09:49 AM NHFT
We could all wind up using live chickens as money. Or ammunition.
That'll be 2 Cocks and a Hen Ma'am.
And 2 eggs are your change.
Have a nice day.
Actually anything that anyone is willing to trade for could become currency. I would like to have a stockpile of cheap liquor and cigarettes. I bet there are alot of people who would accept those as currency. (in a SHTF scenario)
I think booze and cigarettes are a great idea too. :)
One thing to remember is that monetary units have to be preservable, so they can be stored for long periods of time, transportable, and easily denominated. This is why metals are used and not chickens. Unless you want poultry meat, you can't just hack half of a chicken off as change 8-).
Quote from: powerpenguin on April 06, 2007, 11:56 AM NHFTOne thing to remember is that monetary units have to be preservable, so they can be stored for long periods of time, transportable, and easily denominated. This is why metals are used and not chickens. Unless you want poultry meat, you can't just hack half of a chicken off as change 8-).
But the farmer down the road from me could issue me an IOU for eggs, which I could collect in increments of a dozen, as needed, over a set length of time, in repayment of a debt...
Joe
Quote from: MaineShark on April 06, 2007, 12:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: powerpenguin on April 06, 2007, 11:56 AM NHFTOne thing to remember is that monetary units have to be preservable, so they can be stored for long periods of time, transportable, and easily denominated. This is why metals are used and not chickens. Unless you want poultry meat, you can't just hack half of a chicken off as change 8-).
But the farmer down the road from me could issue me an IOU for eggs, which I could collect in increments of a dozen, as needed, over a set length of time, in repayment of a debt...
Joe
I second that.
Quote from: error on April 06, 2007, 09:49 AM NHFT
We could all wind up using live chickens as money.
Reminds me of the musical The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.
22LR seems like it would be a good commodity to hold. Relatively inexpensive, widely used, and can be held for a while.
Cigarettes and liquor are phenomenal items for barter and exchange--there's always a demand, and they basically hold their value. Even in situations where the spit isn't hitting the fan, they can be used as items of exchange.
For example, I attended a Rainbow Gathering a few years ago and found that most of the folks selling their items accepted these as currency.
Yeah, it was pretty interesting. People-watching was fascinating, as the event draws people from the fringes of society There's a nice spirit of welcoming and tolerance from most people there. They're also a pretty strong anti-government sentiment exhibited, particularly towards the cops who are patrolling.
And on the topic of alternative currencies; bartering, trading and alternatives like cigarettes are widely used. Cash money is practically discouraged; you hardly ever see money trading hands.
So, we are all in agreement that certain things are valuable in the SHTF. Thus, we need to find something that will motivate us and more people to have them. That something is the secure knowledge that we'll be able to use SHTF posessions as currency, even if the S never hits the F.
Maybe all that is needed is for us to set a valuation for certain items and for a couple of us to accept those items as currency, in normal times, at that price. That gives everyone who trades with us a motivation to buy those things in greater quantity. It gives everyone the opportunity to posess a currency (other than precious metal) which holds or rises in value over time. Some of those items are unlikely to depreciate and can be used, traded immediately, or traded at a profit later if the valuation goes up. I assume we could reset the default valuation from time to time. Meanwhile you've got them lying around for SHTF.
But which items? Every item has its pitfalls and advantages.
Toilet paper is safe to store and easy to set values for, but it's bulky to trade in normal times .
Certain ammo calibers are probably easy to set a value for, but they are harder to store safely and how do you tell if a round of ammo has gone bad?
Coins are more liquid but have no intrinsic use in a physical disaster.
Matches are easy to set a value for, but they require storage precautions to prevent them from becoming a fire hazard. They also probably are pretty bulky to trade and store in normal times. They did become currency apparently during the Bosnian conflict.
Cigarrettes pack a decent value into a small space and weight, they're safe to store. They're easy to value. But there are moral issues, and I understand they get stale. Refrigeration apparently helps.
Liquor seems hard to define a value for unless we used only a small numer of liquor types. However it might be good to hold for the fact that it's nonperishable and subject to rising in value (regulation, taxation). Would it be possible to settle on a small number of readily quantifiable liquor types?
Blank DVD-Rs are an interesting idea but I assume they depreciate because of deflation in the computer market.
The wool idea I don't even know enough about to speculate.
Paper sounds viable since it's so consumable. It should be easy to set a value for and trade in packages or boxes. Bulky tho. Limited SHTF applications; I guess you would burn it. Maybe packaged form it word burn slower than kindling.
How about chocolate? How long does it keep?
I think I favor matches and liquor but am not sure....
Looks like ebay prices for wheat pennies are way out of whack compared to coin stores. You can get them intermittantly for 3.6 cents a piece in Nashua but as I mentioned earlier they seem to be selling for 13 cents each on ebay, and I'm just talking unsorted lots here. Guess that provides a markup opportunity. If you sell back to the coin store you'd apparently get about 2.5-3 cents.
Anyway as a first minor step I'm ready for now to start accepting wheat pennies as payment at a 3.8 cent valuation. Who is willing to join me in doing the same? I'll be looking to buy some and spend 'em on those who accept them.
And theoretically, this gives you the means to buy them elsewhere and use them on me at a profit.
I never believe that 'unsorted' claim
I would not use cigarettes, but tobacco. You do have to be careful about it.
For more info see:
http://agingfaq.nocturne.org/aging.php
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on April 08, 2007, 05:01 PM NHFT
I never believe that 'unsorted' claim
i dont either on ebay but i'm just trying to make the point that they are lots in circulated condition.
Tobacco...that is interesting... Wonder how you would sell it though.
Here is another idea: Jim Beam whiskey. After looking around on the net for twenty mintues the best price I found for it was $14.28/liter. That is not a bulk price however. I wonder if it would be possible to make that into a currency and at what valuation. Is there a cheaper, well known whisky or a better price you know of at which it can be obtained? Does trading in whisky as though it were a currency constitute a violation of some law and if so under what circumstances? Does it have to be stored in any special way to prevent it from devaluing? Can its containers survive a fire? How well can it handle outdoor storage conditions?
Bottled whiskey is not affected by time or temperature. It ceases aging once bottled and unless you're in the Arctics it isn't going to freeze. It's not likely to survive a fire, though!
Jim Beam is somewhat expensive, due to the name recognition. Evan Williams is a decent, but very cheap whiskey. State stores sell a 1.75L jug for around $17, on average.
If we want to also support local New Hampshire business, perhaps General John Stark vodka would be in order--the Flaghill vineyard in Lee, NH sells their phenomenal vodka for $25 for a .750ltr bottle. Live Free, or Die!
I wasn't THAT serious about the blank DVD-R thing! :)
I like this idea. I got a little queezy at the "we" setting "the price/value" of things. I'm sure you aren't talking about a government style "We". So long as we have electricity,computers, and networks; we might be able to setup up a sort of 'market' for reaching values of item. What is the backup when SHTF?
Can the Ripple system be employed here? It still have not figured exactly how it works. I'm thinking on the fly here:
we setup 'bank' accounts where say I "deposit" 12 bottles whiskey, 100 oz silver, 10 oz gold and 1000 FRaud papers. I will guarantee that these items are in fact in my possession. Others with in our group will open accounts with 'Items Of Use'tm so our system will have lots of useful items in decentralized storage. Based on this store of items we can trade 'Items Of Use'tm IOUs that can be easily traded. I'm getting a little lost here, I'll post it for other to add to or help put back on track.
In any case, one of the problems of stashing away valuables is removing capital from investment. If, instead of burying gold in my backyard, I loan it to someone who would in turn buy some copper and corn; he could repay me with bottles of whiskey. So to stick this into our system, loans could be made which will be repaid with 'Items Of Use'tm.
This is all basic economics. I guess the idea is to get rid of the part that is based on FRaud money. So, in our system of placing values on 'Items Of Use'tm FRauds need to be seen for what the are; a poor store of value.
I'm hope someone can grab a piece of a thought out of this little ramble :blush:
Oh, and while gold and silver might not have IMMEDIATE intrinsic value during a disaster scenario, it remains true that they do have value and will be intrinsically useful again. Even disasters don't last forever. So gold and silver are good bets going in. Aside from that, I wouldn't begin to speculate on what else might become money.
Quote from: error on April 09, 2007, 08:21 AM NHFT
Oh, and while gold and silver might not have IMMEDIATE intrinsic value during a disaster scenario, it remains true that they do have value and will be intrinsically useful again.
for me same goes anything that isn't usable by me ..... in a disaster what use do I have for cigs and booze? After a while I could sell them to others, but that would not be that much sooner than gold. :)
maybe you need to look at more expensive things that are worth storing :)
Yeah, I can't see much benefit in circulating necessities. When the need arises, I want stuff on hand. So, I would only circulate excess stuff. If only excess stuff circulates, then it isn't all that valuable, is it?
Cathleen
I think one tends to store more of things that one can easily and profitably circulate. That is why most of us "store" thousands of FRNs (in banks). I would store thousands of matches in fire resistant containers if I thought I could use them like FRNs. They would likely not depreciate, and would remain a tradable and intrinsicly useful asset in a physical or monetary crisis. FRNs might not.
Maybe we should look at this from the other end. Is there anyone here who would accept John Stark vodka as payment, at a valuation of $25 per .750 bottle? I know I would accept it, but would want to examine the prevailing prices first to set a valuation.
I like the idea of an alternate currency being something that was locally produced.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 09, 2007, 12:58 PM NHFT
I like the idea of an alternate currency being something that was locally produced.
$40 FRN per gallon of NH maple syrup! :)
I'd accept General John Stark for currency. One other neat thing about buying it directly from the producer in Lee, is that when you buy something like 10 bottles they throw in one for free. If buying enough quantity they'll take 25% off the total, too.
When we had the alt expo at the Liberty Forum, I bought all the wines, vodka and soda pop there; something like $250 worth and they knocked off 25% because I bought so much. It's a pretty cool place to visit, too FYI http://flaghill.com/
Arright...after poking around the Net to see the price ranges I am also willing to accept John Stark vodka as payment. For now I'd accept Insurgent's valuation of $25 per .750 liter bottle.
I'd welcome more information about the pricing and might revalue if I learn that it can be bought a lot more cheaply somewhere without having to buy a ton of it. There is not that much info on the internet about it.
One thing to keep in mind: These would probably be worth a lot if flaghill ever went out of business.
Who else is willing to join me and Insurgent in accepting this local treasure as a currency?
Oh also I learned today that matches appear to be worth roughly 1/4 of a penny.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 06, 2007, 09:00 AM NHFT
OK here is an idea. What if we were to start blurring the line somewhat between barter and money?
*cough* www.ripple.libertybrew.com *cough*
Also, someone
seriously needs to design, and mint some FSP coins. If no one jumps on that soon, I just might. Put a porcupine on one side and a Lauren Canario head on the other. Forget stamping a USD equivalent on your coins like libertydollars, and don't use any formulas or ties to USD at all. Just indicate the weight and purity of the silver in each coin (do 1/2 and 1oz. pieces of 3-nine-fine silver) and pass them among people who understand its value. That's an idea I intend to carry out, but I mention it now because I'd be
thrilled if something like that happened sooner than I can manage.
Here's an alternative currency I've been using very successfully:
http://bookmooch.com
All it is is really a method for keeping score on the trades. You get fractions of points for offering books, points for sending books and as feedback, lose points for taking books. It's very simple. This type of system could be used for anything - trading, exchaging work, etc. I think it's cool that they allow you to donate your points to charity if you wish.
Quote from: Barterer on April 10, 2007, 12:29 AM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 06, 2007, 09:00 AM NHFT
OK here is an idea. What if we were to start blurring the line somewhat between barter and money?
*cough* www.ripple.libertybrew.com *cough*
Also, someone seriously needs to design, and mint some FSP coins. If no one jumps on that soon, I just might. Put a porcupine on one side and a Lauren Canario head on the other. Forget stamping a USD equivalent on your coins like libertydollars, and don't use any formulas or ties to USD at all. Just indicate the weight and purity of the silver in each coin (do 1/2 and 1oz. pieces of 3-nine-fine silver) and pass them among people who understand its value. That's an idea I intend to carry out, but I mention it now because I'd be thrilled if something like that happened sooner than I can manage.
Hello barterer
This place has dies for sale (http://www.militarychallengecoins.com/challenge_coin_prices2.html) like for $500 apiece.
So all you need to do is put together the money for ~$500 worth of die fees (per side) in addition to enough money for the silver rounds you stamp to not be excessively priced (<$1 over spot per coin, :. more than 1000 1oz silver rounds.) and then you can do it.
See here (http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=2626.0) for the previous attempt at getting some money for silver together.
Quote from: Barterer on April 10, 2007, 12:29 AM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 06, 2007, 09:00 AM NHFT
OK here is an idea. What if we were to start blurring the line somewhat between barter and money?
*cough* www.ripple.libertybrew.com *cough*
Also, someone seriously needs to design, and mint some FSP coins. If no one jumps on that soon, I just might. Put a porcupine on one side and a Lauren Canario head on the other. Forget stamping a USD equivalent on your coins like libertydollars, and don't use any formulas or ties to USD at all. Just indicate the weight and purity of the silver in each coin (do 1/2 and 1oz. pieces of 3-nine-fine silver) and pass them among people who understand its value. That's an idea I intend to carry out, but I mention it now because I'd be thrilled if something like that happened sooner than I can manage.
B... I looked into that and have a bunch of into.
I was going to have 1 silver oz porc and an outline of a porcupine.
You need to do about 1000 oz to make it break even in the beginning.
I am still interested in doing this but it will have to wait until my new roof goes on.
What about 1 of the oldest currencies in the world - salt? Not practicle as a currency today but depending on what disaster manifests at any given time in the future it could be very valuable.
Anyone watch Jericho?
Quote from: SpeedPhreak on April 10, 2007, 01:42 PM NHFT
Anyone watch Jericho?
No, but I have it sitting here. Thanks for reminding me.
Incandescent lightbulbs, except they are so delicate.
Thanks for the info, Dreepa and Sandm000. I will look into those leads. In order to mint coins of a particular design, what method do you think is most viable?
1. punch own blanks from silver rolled to an exact thickness, strike coins, remelt scrap, roll, repeat
2. buy ready-made blanks and strike them (I have not seen those anywhere, but they should be available on request)
3. buy minted rounds and over-stamp them (would probably make a double image unless stamped very heavily)
4. just have a company mint a design for you
I was thinking of buying a fly press, dies and ready-weighed blanks, and just cranking them out. In order to get by with a fairly small press (http://www.oldworldanvils.com/flypresses/flypress6.html), I'd probably heat the blanks, but I'd hate to mess up the tempering of the $500 dies.
I know a little about manufacturing things. Punching out the blanks would be the most difficult process. I would try to start with ready made. I'm guessing that the temperature at which silver softens is too low to effect the temper or hardness of the dies.
Coins are made with control measures that might be hard for you to maintain, but, who cares if they aren't perfect? As long as they all look and weigh the same, they will be a 'Bart' and people will use them.
I would like to see coins made in smaller weights than mentioned here, like, 1/4 & 1/10 oz.
Quote from: Barterer on April 10, 2007, 11:07 PM NHFT
Thanks for the info, Dreepa and Sandm000. I will look into those leads. In order to mint coins of a particular design, what method do you think is most viable?
4. just have a company mint a design for you
I was looking at this option.
Lloyd, I was looking at 1/2 ozes as well. 1/10 the they told me costs (currently) to mint as the 'value'.
Also remember it would take about 1000 to break even on this. I was thinking of having it done for LF07 and then Porcfest... maybe I will do it in the fall for LF08.
What are some other things you would like to be able to use for currency?
SpeedPhreak's idea about using salt does sound interesting. Does salt have any limits on its shelf life? If it is backed by ancient history that is a notch in salt's favor. Bosnian friends told me it commanded huge prices where they lived during the war and they were in probably the safest city in central Bosnia.
Yes it's cheap now, but again the point is to use it as currency *while* it's cheap so that you have more on hand if the lights go out, as well as a wider range of currencies you can use when you want to buy something.
I'd accept it but as always would want to research a valuation first.
Question about vodka: At what temp does it freeze? To what extent if any does it pose a fire hazard while stored and bottled?
Lloyd's light bulb idea has potential but I heard incans are about to go obsolete. And the new cheap replacements, since they are new, should get cheaper over the next few years. On the other hand if incans become rarer they might later command some sort of additional value.
Incandescent bulbs aren't about to go obsolete. They're about to be outlawed. (So only outlaws will have incandescent bulbs?!) You can be sure a black market will arise for these.
salt is basically a rock - it wont ever go bad. it is essential to life & that is why it is so valuable. It will preserve food/kill microbes - no refridgeration? pack it in salt & it will be good for months even years if you salt in a cold environment - ie kill & butcher an elk in the dead of winter... salt cure it - all outside. The cold preserves the meat until the salt has time to do its work.
obviously right now w/salt fields & mines operating at full capacity you can buy 50lb bags for like $10 or less. Depending on the scenario of if/when the shtf, salt will (as it once was) be worth its weight in gold.
vodka/alcohol should store just fine as long as it is not exposed to flame as any leaking vapors could ignite. I was a bartender for several years & actually had problems lighting anything under 100proof (at sea level 80proof usually lights fairly easy). You had to preheat the alcohol to get enough vapors for sustained flame. If you used 151 or everclear (about 95% alcohol) it would ignite instantly. As far as freezing - assuming an 80proof vodka you would have to get it to about -200 or more F. Pure alcohol/ethanol won't freeze until -117C. So your bottle of vodka couldn't really be frozen w/a regular or even commercial freezer... dry ice or liquid N would probably do it though.
No need to freeze alcohol - especially higher proof booze. It should never go bad. Even lower proof - schnapps, wine, beer. Will keep for a very long time (hundreds of years) if stored properly (airtight, dark, cool) - wine/mead that has been bottled for over a century has been found to be in perfect condition.
Wow, interesting information SpeedPhreak, thanks! :) Now, that's what I call thinking outside of the box! ;D
Yep, that's all correct. While vodka and other spirits won't freeze, wine and beer will--I know this from unfortunate personal experience! :blush:
Mmmm, mead-money ;-) Honey-money would also be quite deeelicious, and convertable into the alternate mead form of currency... heheh
Quote from: SpeedPhreak on April 17, 2007, 10:14 AM NHFT
No need to freeze alcohol - especially higher proof booze. It should never go bad. Even lower proof - schnapps, wine, beer. Will keep for a very long time (hundreds of years) if stored properly (airtight, dark, cool) - wine/mead that has been bottled for over a century has been found to be in perfect condition.
And likely to skyrocket in price because of the massive bee de-population that's been happening lately!
I hadn't thought of honey as a potential currency.
It has a limited shelf life crystalizes however, correct? Is there a way to store it so it doesnt crystalize?
I don't know about the crystalization Dada - but honey can't really go bad either. Pots of honey that are perfectly fine have been found in egyptian tombs (over 3000 yrs old).
If it does crystalize - I believe you can reconstitute it by gently heating it in a double boiler.
Comestibles as currency seems like something that would be short-term only. I'm not sure I'd bet on it.
Other items of high value would be iodine, perhaps packaged in "to treat X gallons of water" ampuoles, potassium salts, nitrates, pure vitamins, and other top-of-the-industrialized-nation pyramid. Rifle brass, powder, primers, bullets. Specialized metal alloys.
I'd be into accepting tech-grade and above chemicals stored in sealed containers. It's nice to have pre-formulated chemical products, but WTSHTF, I want the constituent chemical components so I can decide what product I want to make as the need arises rather than have to store a zillion bottles of ACME X, Y and Z. Things like lye, pure soap sans Alex Jones, SDS, concentrated acids, pH indicators, dessicants, dichromate salts, etc.
I'd really like to set up an old-school Chemist's shop with while-you-wait compounding services for the majority of products people would want. SO much money is wasted buying that stuff for retail prices when it costs the company 2 cents to manufacture it.
Medications, antibiotics, medical supplies, tools and electronic equipment.
Wire. Nails and other hardware. Whiskey tobacco and chocolate, yes, but purified ethanol above all. Batteries.
Storage space. :D
hmmm interesting bald...
Quote from: Bald Eagle on June 11, 2007, 10:34 PM NHFT
Other items of high value would be iodine, perhaps packaged in "to treat X gallons of water" ampuoles, potassium salts, nitrates, pure vitamins, and other top-of-the-industrialized-nation pyramid. Rifle brass, powder, primers, bullets. Specialized metal alloys.
I'd be into accepting tech-grade and above chemicals stored in sealed containers. It's nice to have pre-formulated chemical products, but WTSHTF, I want the constituent chemical components so I can decide what product I want to make as the need arises rather than have to store a zillion bottles of ACME X, Y and Z. Things like lye, pure soap sans Alex Jones, SDS, concentrated acids, pH indicators, dessicants, dichromate salts, etc.
I'd really like to set up an old-school Chemist's shop with while-you-wait compounding services for the majority of products people would want. SO much money is wasted buying that stuff for retail prices when it costs the company 2 cents to manufacture it.
Medications, antibiotics, medical supplies, tools and electronic equipment.
Wire. Nails and other hardware. Whiskey tobacco and chocolate, yes, but purified ethanol above all. Batteries.
Storage space. :D
Now that's what I would want some whiskey, (I would like some bud as a chaser but oh well), tobacco and chocolate! :D
I don't get manicures so I don't need the nails. ;D
Practical stuff that will always necessary is very useful for barter in a shtf scenario. Bald Eagle hit on some of them.
Cigarettes were the preferred barter item in post war germany. A pack could be broken down into smaller units, and they remained somewhat valuable no matter what happened. It is true they get old, but if they start losing value they will be smoke off rather than traded.
A generator and lots of fuel will probably be more useful than salt for preservation of food to power refrigerator. And with canning and dry foods, (both can be done at home) in a disaster we may not need refrigeration. I have a power inverter for my car. It is not very powerful, but can charge up my cell with a normal cord, and run other power equipment.
>> I have a power inverter for my car. >>
those are wonderful even in normal times.
in hard times a single inverter converts your vehicle into a generator. i got one from radio shack in 2002 that works great still
I would be cautious about using cigarettes as currency in this day and age. The problem is that the number of people who have a need for cigarettes is dropping. Also, there is the brand issue. It is not like pot (or like cigarettes once were), where there are only a few types and people will smoke what you have. Now, smokers are very particular about what they smoke.
I used to know a buttlegger (one who engages in arbitrage of low tax cigarettes), and he would generally buy about 300 cartons of 20 brands to keep his customers happy, and still had a hard time proportioning his purchases in order to run out of everything at the same time, and make another trip.
Of course, if it's a teotwawki situation, smokers (myself included) will smoke what they can get and thank you for it.
BTW, my father tells me that they used to grow tobacco in Connecticut, which surprised me. I thought Connecticut was too far north. If they can do it, we can do it!
They still grow tobacco in CT and further north into Mass. All of it is cigar tobacco and most of that is cigar wrapper.
The cigars I've enjoyed most all have Connecticut shade-grown wrappers.