New Hampshire Underground

This for is a draft, but good enough for now. Download it at:

www.freewebs.com/ryanm207/sssdesigncontest.doc

-or-

www.freewebs.com/ryanm207/sssdesigncontest.pdf



[/b]


This is a contest to create the design for upcoming Shire Silver medallions. We are planning on eventually issuing in 4 denominations, each in both round and rectangular form, and each with both a listed suggested FRN value reverse and a weight only version reverse. That means we may go with as many as 24 designs! The denominations are:
5 gram (.16 troy ounce) Suggested Trade Value $5
About 7/8 in. round, 3/4 x 1 in. rectangular

10 gram (.32 troy ounce) Suggested Trade Value $10
About 1 1/4 in. round, 1 x 1 1/2 in. rectangular

1/2 troy ounce (15.55g) Suggested Trade Value $15
About 1 1/2 in. round, 1 1/4 x 1 3/4 in. rectangular

1 troy ounce (31.10g) Suggested Trade Value $30
About 2 1/8 in. round, 1 3/4 x 2 1/2 in. rectangular

·   DO assure your design can be rendered as a black and white drawing (no shades of gray or sculpted designs).
·   DO allow space for titles, weight, etc.
·   DO use empty space on the form for explanations, clarification, etc.
·   DO submit any incomplete designs or just any ideas you have.
·   DO submit as many designs as you'd like!
·   DO NOT worry about producing a "final" design, we're looking for ideas here. A rough sketch is just fine.
·   DO NOT use the word "dollar," the "$" sign, or anything that would lead the average person to believe it is US currency.
·   DO NOT use slogans, wording, or symbols found on or similar to government currency or logos.
·   DO NOT use rude or obscene language or images.
·   DO NOT use likenesses or profiles of any living or dead people.

All artwork submitted becomes the property of the Shire Silver group.
We reserve the right to change, alter, or combine designs.

Hand deliver submissions to Ron Helwig or Bill Walker (Kate's Bill),
email to shiresilver@gmail.com or mail to:
Ron Helwig
PO Box 12
Deerfield, NH 03037

All submissions must be received by March 2, 2008.
The winners will be announced and final designs unveiled at PorcFest 2008.
A prize for winners may be announced later, but shouldn't your creation in silver be enough?
Make sure your name is on the back of EVERY submission.

cool

I think the suggested trade value should be close to what it costs to make the medallions.

Quote from: Defender of Liberty on December 20, 2007, 05:58 AM NHFT
I think the suggested trade value should be close to what it costs to make the medallions.

It's pretty close to that already, and subject to change.

Quote from: ReverendRyan on December 20, 2007, 06:04 AM NHFT

Quote from: Defender of Liberty on December 20, 2007, 05:58 AM NHFT
I think the suggested trade value should be close to what it costs to make the medallions.

It's pretty close to that already, and subject to change.

If that's the case, you may want to shop around for a minting company with better rates.  I would think that if you make enough of them, it should cost around $1 per medallion above the cost of the silver to mint them.
How many are you thinking about making?

Quote from: Defender of Liberty on December 20, 2007, 06:59 AM NHFT

Quote from: ReverendRyan on December 20, 2007, 06:04 AM NHFT

Quote from: Defender of Liberty on December 20, 2007, 05:58 AM NHFT
I think the suggested trade value should be close to what it costs to make the medallions.

It's pretty close to that already, and subject to change.

If that's the case, you may want to shop around for a minting company with better rates.  I would think that if you make enough of them, it should cost around $1 per medallion above the cost of the silver to mint them.
How many are you thinking about making?

First, blanks, plus dies, plus press, plus labor, comes out to significantly more than $1. The only exception would be if we raised enough capital to order 500k to 1 million usd at once, mint them overseas, and pray they don't get seized coming in.

Second, there needs to be a buffer between suggested value and spot price. Imagine investing in dies, producing plenty of specie, and having the dollar tank more so that the suggested value is now below spot. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Quote from: Defender of Liberty on December 20, 2007, 06:59 AM NHFT
If that's the case, you may want to shop around for a minting company

Minting companies won't touch this stuff anymore. People have been asking, but since the raid on LD, they are out of that business.

Besides, the WHOLE POINT of Shire Silver is that everyone can and should make their own. Distributed "manufacturing" is the only way to make it survive against the FedGoons onslaught. If you don't have a head, there's no head to cut off (which was always the Achille's Heel of the Liberty Dollar).

We will make a design, and sell dies, and give away instructions as to how to cheaply make your own presses.
We will/do have a site that lists merchants who accept silver in trade (http://shiresilver.com (http://shiresilver.com)).
We will sell accessories to make the use of it easier (counter mats, wallets, "coin" purses, testers, ...)
We have a site for ongoing discussion and organizing (http://shiresilver.org (http://shiresilver.org))

Have a hydraulic car jack? Well then you have the beginnings of a press!
Have a hydraulic wood splitter? Well then you have most of a press!

How strong of a press would one need?  I have a 12 ton hydraulic press.  How much do the blank discs cost and where would we buy them?  Also, why even peg it to the US dollar?  Why not have it's value based on the value of silver plus the minting costs, or based on whatever someone is willing to exchange for it?  They could be used for bartering or they could be sold as collectible items.

Quote from: Ron Helwig on December 20, 2007, 09:37 AM NHFT

Quote from: Defender of Liberty on December 20, 2007, 06:59 AM NHFT
If that's the case, you may want to shop around for a minting company

Minting companies won't touch this stuff anymore. People have been asking, but since the raid on LD, they are out of that business.

Besides, the WHOLE POINT of Shire Silver is that everyone can and should make their own. Distributed "manufacturing" is the only way to make it survive against the FedGoons onslaught. If you don't have a head, there's no head to cut off (which was always the Achille's Heel of the Liberty Dollar).

We will make a design, and sell dies, and give away instructions as to how to cheaply make your own presses.
We will/do have a site that lists merchants who accept silver in trade (http://shiresilver.com (http://shiresilver.com)).
We will sell accessories to make the use of it easier (counter mats, wallets, "coin" purses, testers, ...)
We have a site for ongoing discussion and organizing (http://shiresilver.org (http://shiresilver.org))

Have a hydraulic car jack? Well then you have the beginnings of a press!
Have a hydraulic wood splitter? Well then you have most of a press!

Brilliant.  Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize. 

Another suggestion, do not include a dollar number on the silver.  Two reasons, 1. it was the most controversial part of the liberty dollar, and 2. you will be changing the figure rather often due to US inflation. 

Like it says in the instructions, we are planning on making versions WITH and WITHOUT the MSRP. Then we can let the market decide. There will be a one ounce medallion with a face value, a one ounce medallion without a face value, a 10 gram medallion with a face value, a 10 gram medallion without a face value, etc. We are also (like it says in the instructions) planning on circular medallions and credit card (i.e. rectangular) shaped/sized medallions. Round vs rectangular X ounces vs grams X with vs without face = 8 variations. Add in halfsies (half ounce and 5 grams) and you get 16 variations to choose from.

And for those of you who don't like the MSRP, instead of constantly harping on the fact that some people actually want to make a profit from their product, you might want to start making suggestions as to why someone would actually want to use a currency without a MSRP. I don't mean fanciful wishing that the FRN is going to magically vanish overnight and usher in a new silver utopia where money is produced/marketed/shipped/stored for no cost, but actual helpful suggestions as to how to get the average merchant who doesn't give a damn about silver in the first place to want to use it in preference to the FRN.

Remember that money is a product - it is no different than every other product. It has to be created/manufactured, marketed, shipped, stored, and sold. It is the wish/hope that money is somehow "different" that is the cause of most economic misunderstandings.

Now get to work designing the best obverses (front) and reverses you can!

All of these concerns have been discussed in-depth and at-length already.
They can be discussed at the shire silver website, and hopefully we will have a FAQ so that we don't have to rehash these issues every time someone asks.  RTFM.

The reason there will be so many variations is to empirically determine what's best.  We won't make a centrally-planned, top-down, we-know-better-than-the end-user/consumer/market decision.

We will make as many reasonable variations available and run with whatever works.
Then adapt as the reality of society and the marketplace dictates.

If you want to design and mint your own bits of silver and impose your own personal decisions as self-appointed monetary architect, go for it.  We're trying to find out what works and USE it.  Not decide for everyone else what WE WANT and then overcome unseen difficulties, unintended consequences, and impossible-to-know market forces to try and MAKE it work.

We're going to fire off a money-shotgun and see which pellets penetrate the market the deepest.  Wish us luck and help out, or start a competing business enterprise.  Competition ensures more, better and cheaper.

Quote from: Defender of Liberty on December 20, 2007, 12:01 PM NHFT
How strong of a press would one need?  I have a 12 ton hydraulic press.

You have approximately twelve times as much as you need. My understanding is that one ton is sufficient.

Here is one plan http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/oilpress.html (http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/oilpress.html)

I have one question, and one comment.
If everyone is making their own, how does the market certify silver content?
The comment is...
In parts of the State we've had to deal with Canadian exchange rates that fluctuate. We did this in small single prioprietor businesses because it was worth the market for the hassles. I would think the fluctuation of silver pricing as compared to Can$ would be no different... with more and more businesses slowly making the choice.

Quote from: John Edward Mercier on December 20, 2007, 01:33 PM NHFT
If everyone is making their own, how does the market certify silver content?

That is a very good question, and we are researching answers to it. If anyone has any ideas, please let us know.

I'm pretty sure the Fisch (http://www.fisch.co.za/) won't work for silver - it works for gold because anything more dense than gold is also more expensive than gold. It is frakking cool though.

As an aside, one of the advantages I see with silver over gold is that if a coin is fake, it wouldn't be as big of a loss. On the other hand, that also means that people won't be willing to pay as much for assaying.

Awesome. I'm on it like shit on stinky fish...with flies.

Shire Silver guys :)  could you give me a description of what Shire Silver is for someone who's not familiar with silver or alternative currencies or anything like that?  I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're doing well enough to write it myself.  The description would go in the newspaper along with the contest info.

I love the poetry Puke.
Now I want to know if you can draw. ;D

Quote from: Scott Roth on December 20, 2007, 06:26 PM NHFT
I am really excited about this idea, folks.  This is the kind of thing that can really put our life here in the Free State and the NH Underground Forum on the forefront of liberty activities.  The Liberty Dollar was the catalyst...now we can make it more of a reality here in the Shire.  And be able to thumb our noses at the government at the same time.  Double whammy! 8)

I really don't understand the benefit.  Why are generic silver rounds insufficient?   The Shire Silver idea was discussed at the meeting after the LD raid.  Only two or three people were not in favor of using generic silver rounds that are currently available.  (Not to suggest the popular option is always the best... but currencies are social constructs and their value partly depends on adoption-rate.)

A Shire Silver piece would be novel and collectible.   However, 20%+ seigniorage makes it less attractive as an exchange of value.

There may be a market for smaller silver coins -- where a higher premium above spot is accepted.   

Other than stamping a questionable FRN value, how would a Shire Silver piece compete against other silver rounds near spot?

Quote from: picaro on December 21, 2007, 09:45 AM NHFT
I really don't understand the benefit.  Why are generic silver rounds insufficient?   The Shire Silver idea was discussed at the meeting after the LD raid.  Only two or three people were not in favor of using generic silver rounds that are currently available.  (Not to suggest the popular option is always the best... but currencies are social constructs and their value partly depends on adoption-rate.)

A Shire Silver piece would be novel and collectible.   However, 20%+ seigniorage makes it less attractive as an exchange of value.

There may be a market for smaller silver coins -- where a higher premium above spot is accepted.   

Other than stamping a questionable FRN value, how would a Shire Silver piece compete against other silver rounds near spot?

If "let the market decide" is a good enough idea for most everything else, why not currency as well? We're offering choice, how is that a bad thing?

If "let the market decide" is a good enough idea for most everything else, why not currency as well? We're offering choice, how is that a bad thing?

Because markets are good, it doesn't follow that the kinks have been smoothed out for SS idea.  Solid questions have been asked about the SS idea.  Solid answers would go a long way toward encouraging others to fully support your effort. 

Good luck.

Quote from: picaro on December 21, 2007, 09:45 AM NHFT
I really don't understand the benefit.  Why are generic silver rounds insufficient?   

... but currencies are social constructs and their value partly depends on adoption-rate.)

A Shire Silver piece would be novel and collectible.   However, 20%+ seigniorage makes it less attractive as an exchange of value.

Other than stamping a questionable FRN value, how would a Shire Silver piece compete against other silver rounds near spot?

It's do-it-yourself money.
You learn why money is money, what makes it valuable, how to deal with determining value and authenticating silver and gold pieces, etc.
We need to get people's heads out of the "it's only good or valuable if somebody else made it, and I don't know anything about it" mode.

We learn to make and use and authenticate our own money, and we're a solid stride ahead toward independence and self-reliance.

Bad things are right around America's corner, and what happens to the NH economy when the money supply is cut off?  Are you gonna trade rocks and timber?

Bad things are right around America's corner, and what happens to the NH economy when the money supply is cut off?  Are you gonna trade rocks and timber?

Ok, I'm starting to get it.  Tools to melt down your silverware and jewellery and stamp them into coins would be pretty cool.

Quote from: Ron Helwig on December 20, 2007, 12:36 PM NHFTAnd for those of you who don't like the MSRP, instead of constantly harping on the fact that some people actually want to make a profit from their product, you might want to start making suggestions as to why someone would actually want to use a currency without a MSRP.

To avoid re-minting as the dollar slides.

I don't see many stores embossing prices on items (at least, items of any significant value).  They use stickers, so they can adjust the price.  I don't see why this product would be any different.  About the only items you see in stores that have the MSRP permanently attached are novelty items at convenience stores, since the turnover is so high and there's no major cost in changing the artwork when they print the next lot of boxes.

Also, on a practical matter, how can it include the MSRP (eg, $15) without using "$" or "dollar"?

Joe

"Redeemable for X Federal Reserve Notes?"

Quote from: Bald Eagle on December 21, 2007, 03:56 PM NHFT"Redeemable for X Federal Reserve Notes?"

I'd watch that sort of wording, if you think that even a "$" could be trouble.  After all, who is guaranteeing that it will be redeemed?

Joe

OK once again, it's not "redeemable for" but "suggested trade value."  If it makes it easier for people to get used to the idea of using metals, isn't that a good thing? And that's only one option. If you don't like the idea then you don't have to use those, use weight only instead, but don't try to enforce your preference on the consumer, that's what we're trying to fight against in the first place.

The great SubGenius prophet Ivan Stang likes to say, "If you don't like it, go start your own damn religion!" If you don't like the way this one will be done, then by all means, start your own damn currency and we can LET THE MARKET DECIDE.

Quote from: MaineShark on December 21, 2007, 03:29 PM NHFT
Also, on a practical matter, how can it include the MSRP (eg, $15) without using "$" or "dollar"?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_%28typography%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_%28typography%29)

Quote from: ReverendRyan on December 20, 2007, 12:43 AM NHFT
·   DO NOT use the word "dollar," the "$" sign, or anything that would lead the average person to believe it is US currency.
·   DO NOT use slogans, wording, or symbols found on or similar to government currency or logos.

I'd suggest also avoiding cute rephrasings like the LD folks did with "Trust in God."

And, even though it's New Hampshire's most recognizable feature, remember the Old Man of the Mountain is on the state quarter.

Quote from: ReverendRyan on December 20, 2007, 12:43 AM NHFT·   DO NOT use likenesses or profiles of any living or dead people.

What's the rationale for not using likenesses of dead people?

If you want to create your own currency, you ought to give it a name other than "dollar". I would suggest "granite". One granite could equal a tenth of an ounce of silver, so a silver round would be 10 Granites. Instead of using a dollar sign, you could use a capital "G" with two lines through it.

Caleb

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on December 21, 2007, 10:56 PM NHFT
What's the rationale for not using likenesses of dead people?

The idea is to make it as easily distinguishable from govt. currency as possible. Dies are also much cheaper and easier with a single level die (like a gaming token) rather than fully sculpted, and portraits don't come out very good with them. These are only guidelines, though. Submit whatever you want.

Quote from: Caleb on December 22, 2007, 01:27 AM NHFT
If you want to create your own currency, you ought to give it a name other than "dollar". I would suggest "granite". One granite could equal a tenth of an ounce of silver, so a silver round would be 10 Granites. Instead of using a dollar sign, you could use a capital "G" with two lines through it.

Caleb

For the time being, we're using the term "shire" even if just for a placeholder until a better name comes along.

By the way, this type of discussion should probably move to www.shiresilver.org

Quote from: Caleb on December 22, 2007, 01:27 AM NHFT
If you want to create your own currency, you ought to give it a name other than "dollar". I would suggest "granite". One granite could equal a tenth of an ounce of silver, so a silver round would be 10 Granites. Instead of using a dollar sign, you could use a capital "G" with two lines through it.

Brilliant.
(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3663/granitegb4.png)

I like the hypatia

Why not start with "Shire Silver" and expand to "Granite Gold"?

I just liked the idea of the "G" monetary symbol.  :)

Perhaps Shire Silver could be a double "S" of some kind.

Best of both worlds: 2 G's rotated and superimposed, forming an S.

(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8607/currency1vz6.png)

I liked Optima.

So no one is interested in explaining Shire Silver?

Quote from: Kat Kanning on December 22, 2007, 11:29 AM NHFT
I liked Optima.

So no one is interested in explaining Shire Silver?

Sorry, but we're a bit busy. Is there a deadline?

Nope, was just trying to get it up on the website as soon as possible for ya guys :)

Quote from: Caleb on December 22, 2007, 01:27 AM NHFT
If you want to create your own currency, you ought to give it a name other than "dollar". I would suggest "granite". One granite could equal a tenth of an ounce of silver, so a silver round would be 10 Granites. Instead of using a dollar sign, you could use a capital "G" with two lines through it.

Caleb

Isn't the unit of measure grams?  Why invent a fake system of currency?  Just put .999 fine silver (or Ag) X grams.  With a slight modification to the idea of a "Granite" you have this (http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3782/aggramszv7.jpg) which you could use for grams Ag, non?

Also how is this a contest if there is no prize?

Quoteyour design in silver should be enough

If you were going to give me 1 of each design that wins, yes.  If I have to then buy one, what is the point of spending my time working for you, without recompense?

That being said, I've already got at least one idea. And to get it out of my head will almost be its own reward.

Quote from: sandm000 on December 24, 2007, 07:25 AM NHFT
Isn't the unit of measure grams?  Why invent a fake system of currency?  Just put .999 fine silver (or Ag) X grams.  With a slight modification to the idea of a "Granite" you have this (http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3782/aggramszv7.jpg) which you could use for grams Ag, non?

I like that one too.

Quote from: sandm000 on December 24, 2007, 07:31 AM NHFT
Also how is this a contest if there is no prize?

There is no prize yet. It just means we haven't decided yet what the prize will be.

I like that AG combo idea - kinda reminds me of the anarchy symbol as well.  :brave:

Quote from: Kat Kanning on December 24, 2007, 05:57 AM NHFT
Nope, was just trying to get it up on the website as soon as possible for ya guys :)

OK, I'll see if I can find some time to work on it. We need that sort of "copy" for the Shire Silver websites as well.

Obverse:
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/4702/design1lu9.jpg)(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8188/design2ye5.jpg)(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5341/design3bb9.jpg)(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/4857/design4vb4.jpg)
Reverse:
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5681/back1xz0.jpg)(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3572/back2ut5.jpg)(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1607/back3xy3.jpg)(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6483/back4bo2.jpg)

obviously the elvish isn't mine, nor do I haver permission to use it.  I just thought it would be neat to make.

Why settle for only 0.999 fine? Can't we do better than that?

Isn't it better to use .999 fine silver if you actually want it to circulate?

Last one for today:
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4773/design5ax6.jpg)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9776/back5aq7.jpg)

If you have any ideas and can't seem to render them into being, post them here.  I'll help out if I can. 

It would be great to have a point of sale system that could handle hard currency, canadian$ etc, calculate change in ferns.

Quote from: sandm000 on December 24, 2007, 07:25 AM NHFT

Quote from: Caleb on December 22, 2007, 01:27 AM NHFT
If you want to create your own currency, you ought to give it a name other than "dollar". I would suggest "granite". One granite could equal a tenth of an ounce of silver, so a silver round would be 10 Granites. Instead of using a dollar sign, you could use a capital "G" with two lines through it.

Caleb

Isn't the unit of measure grams?  Why invent a fake system of currency?  Just put .999 fine silver (or Ag) X grams.  With a slight modification to the idea of a "Granite" you have this (http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3782/aggramszv7.jpg) which you could use for grams Ag, non?

I like it, and the idea of just using "grams" as the names. Most currency "names" as we understand them nowadays were originally units of weight (e.g., the British pound, the Greek drachma), mathematical divisions thereof (e.g., the cent), or the place of origin (e.g., the thaler). That the weight-based names have been so thoroughly disconnected from the real unit of weight, so as to become a proper noun, is merely a result of inflation, debasement, seigneurage, and other government meddling in the value of the currency.

(http://www.politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/Lloyd-Shire-Silver-1.jpg)

 ;D 8)

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2007, 03:39 PM NHFT
(http://www.politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/Lloyd-Shire-Silver-1.jpg)

I'll take twenty.

Wait, does that mean Lloyd is a zombie or a vampire or some other variation of neither living nor dead?   ;D

Cause, ReverendRyan says:
·   DO NOT use likenesses or profiles of any living or dead people.

(I was forced to explain my kidding of the Tom and the Lloyd.)  :(

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2007, 03:39 PM NHFT
(http://www.politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/Lloyd-Shire-Silver-1.jpg)

People would start referring to it as the 'chin'

I was going to suggest a shire coin with Ivan on it.  We could call i the 'Ivan'

So now I got to follow rules...  ;D

I will except payment in Lloyds  8)

Got two Lloyds?   Gimme one and I'll scratch my signature on the other one.

All across the Shire merchants will be heard to say "Who is Lloyd?"

Aye, ya look like a man what's got two Lloyds ta rub togather.   ;D

Quote from: Lloyd  Danforth on December 29, 2007, 04:39 PM NHFT
Got two Lloyds?   Gimme one and I'll scratch my signature on the other one.

See we are already creating rare collectables.  8)

Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on December 29, 2007, 04:42 PM NHFT
Aye, ya look like a man what's got two Lloyds ta rub togather.   ;D

And disturbing imagery.  ;D

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2007, 04:42 PM NHFT

Quote from: Lloyd  Danforth on December 29, 2007, 04:39 PM NHFT
Got two Lloyds?   Gimme one and I'll scratch my signature on the other one.

See we are already creating rare collectables.  8)

I'm only gonna scratch my signature on a limited number* of Lloyds.

















*To be determined at a future date.

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on December 26, 2007, 05:47 PM NHFT

Quote from: sandm000 on December 24, 2007, 07:25 AM NHFT

Quote from: Caleb on December 22, 2007, 01:27 AM NHFT
If you want to create your own currency, you ought to give it a name other than "dollar". I would suggest "granite". One granite could equal a tenth of an ounce of silver, so a silver round would be 10 Granites. Instead of using a dollar sign, you could use a capital "G" with two lines through it.

Caleb

Isn't the unit of measure grams?  Why invent a fake system of currency?  Just put .999 fine silver (or Ag) X grams.  With a slight modification to the idea of a "Granite" you have this (http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3782/aggramszv7.jpg) which you could use for grams Ag, non?

I like it, and the idea of just using "grams" as the names. Most currency "names" as we understand them nowadays were originally units of weight (e.g., the British pound, the Greek drachma), mathematical divisions thereof (e.g., the cent), or the place of origin (e.g., the thaler). That the weight-based names have been so thoroughly disconnected from the real unit of weight, so as to become a proper noun, is merely a result of inflation, debasement, seigneurage, and other government meddling in the value of the currency.

IMO... Shire would be a more appropriate 'name'.
1 Shire could equal 1 Troy ounce of silver... or some smaller denomination. Like 100 Shires equal 1 Troy ounce of silver.

In one of these other threads, I remember mentioning (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12056.msg206299#msg206299) the gAu (grams of gold) currency unit from Vernor Vinge's novels as a potential name. I just realized that such a nomenclature would result in silver coinage being called a "gAg". Probably not such a good idea...

LOL @ Lloyd rounds  ;D

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on December 30, 2007, 01:18 PM NHFT
In one of these other threads, I remember mentioning (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12056.msg206299#msg206299) the gAu (grams of gold) currency unit from Vernor Vinge's novels as a potential name. I just realized that such a nomenclature would result in silver coinage being called a "gAg". Probably not such a good idea...

Aug/Agg works better, IMHO.

I could swear I saw a list of acronyms for currencies that included gold and silver grams, but lately all the lists I see only show ounces (XAU/XAG).

One of the things we have talked about quite a bit is to get away from "naming" the currency. One of the problems with the current monetary system is that we call the primary unit a "dollar" and not "ounce of silver". Once people started thinking about their money as dollars and not ounces of silver, it was much easier to debase the dollar.

That being said, I do like Shire Silver as a brand name. "You can trust that a Shire Silver 10 Gram Token is just that - 10 grams of pure silver!"

tom that is the funniest thing i've seen on NH free all year !

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Quote from: Ron Helwig on December 31, 2007, 09:05 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on December 30, 2007, 01:18 PM NHFT
In one of these other threads, I remember mentioning (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12056.msg206299#msg206299) the gAu (grams of gold) currency unit from Vernor Vinge's novels as a potential name. I just realized that such a nomenclature would result in silver coinage being called a "gAg". Probably not such a good idea...

Aug/Agg works better, IMHO.

I could swear I saw a list of acronyms for currencies that included gold and silver grams, but lately all the lists I see only show ounces (XAU/XAG).

One of the things we have talked about quite a bit is to get away from "naming" the currency. One of the problems with the current monetary system is that we call the primary unit a "dollar" and not "ounce of silver". Once people started thinking about their money as dollars and not ounces of silver, it was much easier to debase the dollar.

That being said, I do like Shire Silver as a brand name. "You can trust that a Shire Silver 10 Gram Token is just that - 10 grams of pure silver!"

Those names are the ISO currency codes, and as far as I know XAU and XAG are the only ones for those respective metals. The denomination is in Troy ounces because that's customary, I guess. ISO codes are usually <country-code><first-letter>, for example USD, CAD, CNY, and so on. The one exception is the Euro (EUR), presumably because EUE would look stupid. The X* codes are all "private-range" codes that represent no country, and precious metals are always X<atomic-symbol>.

I quite agree about getting away from names and back to widely used units of weight or mass, and I posted to that effect earlier. ;D This is also a good reason to push for grams, a universally recognized and used unit of mass, instead of Troy ounces, a bizarre and archaic unit only used to measure precious metals.

Quote from: DadaOrwell on December 31, 2007, 10:35 AM NHFT
tom that is the funniest thing i've seen on NH free all year !

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Wow, Dave laughed at something on here!

Quote from: Ron Helwig on December 31, 2007, 09:05 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on December 30, 2007, 01:18 PM NHFT
In one of these other threads, I remember mentioning (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12056.msg206299#msg206299) the gAu (grams of gold) currency unit from Vernor Vinge's novels as a potential name. I just realized that such a nomenclature would result in silver coinage being called a "gAg". Probably not such a good idea...

Aug/Agg works better, IMHO.

I could swear I saw a list of acronyms for currencies that included gold and silver grams, but lately all the lists I see only show ounces (XAU/XAG).

AUG & AGG, as used by e-gold: http://e-gold.com/currentexchange.html

Quote from: jaqeboy on December 31, 2007, 04:58 PM NHFT

Quote from: Ron Helwig on December 31, 2007, 09:05 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on December 30, 2007, 01:18 PM NHFT
In one of these other threads, I remember mentioning (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12056.msg206299#msg206299) the gAu (grams of gold) currency unit from Vernor Vinge's novels as a potential name. I just realized that such a nomenclature would result in silver coinage being called a "gAg". Probably not such a good idea...

Aug/Agg works better, IMHO.

I could swear I saw a list of acronyms for currencies that included gold and silver grams, but lately all the lists I see only show ounces (XAU/XAG).

AUG & AGG, as used by e-gold: http://e-gold.com/currentexchange.html

They're gonna be screwed if Australia or Antigua ever begin using a currency starting with a G.

Tony Hargis began using gmAu back when he wrote In Gold I Trust in about 1973, and continuing on through using it for accounts in his gold bank in L.A.

Some links to info on Anthony L. Hargis:
The Crime of... (http://www.illuminati-news.com/anthony-hargis-2.htm)
Anthony L. Hargis & Co. - A Case Study in the Present Danger (http://philosborn.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=26478)
Operator of Warehouse Bank Sent to Jail (http://www.quatloos.com/warehouse_bank_operator.htm)
FEDERAL JUDGE FREEZES EIGHT BANK ACCOUNTS IN THREE STATES IN SHUTDOWN OF TAX EVASION SCHEME; Computers, Customer Funds, Bank Records Also Seized (http://0225.0145.01.040/tax/txdv04562.htm)
book by Tony: Law v. Freedom (http://www.bean-d.com/for-sale/LawVFreedom_Hargis.htm)
Mention of Hargis' Liberty Dollar on forum thread (http://www.solohq.org/Forum/NewsDiscussions/1903.shtml)

Probly some lessons to be learned here as well as in the NotHaus Liberty Dollar case.

AUg's and AGg's.... Auggies and Aggies.  I like it.

Instead of being gAu ("gaw") and gAg ("gag") why not pronounce it gAu (gah-yewz) and gAg (gah-jeez).  I like to preserve the word order.  One wouldn't say I have 10 gold grams to sell (unless you were talking about 10 individual coins) you would say I have 10 grams gold to sell.

The xXx format does look a bit better, the camelCaps helping to plainly show it's two words abbreviated. "gAg" is just too easy for someone to mispronounce, either accidentally or otherwise.

I've got a radical idea, why not call them "gold" and "silver"?

Quote from: ReverendRyan on January 02, 2008, 07:01 PM NHFT
I've got a radical idea, why not call them "gold" and "silver"?

Sure. But, denominated in what unit? Troy ounces? Standard ounces? Grams? Grains? &c.. Let's assume grams: So now it's "grams of gold" and "grams of silver"—so how do we abbreviate it, since for practical purposes there needs to be a short way of writing a currency's name (e.g., USD, $, EUR, £, &c.). That's where this "Aug" vs. "gAu" vs. "G" vs. &c. debate is coming in.

Wow, this is fantastic.. how did I miss this thread?  Whatever the results of the contest, I will be ordering some of these coin uh, rounds.

Here are my 2 cents concerning designs:
Go with grams as a base unit, not ounces.  It is a smaller, easier to manage unit for small purchases.. as opposed to making the base unit ounces, then subdividing that into tenths, cents, quarters or whatever.

I know this has already been pretty much decided, but I'd leave the MSRP/suggested value completely out of it.. for reasons already mentioned (USD inflation/minting changes, confusion with US currency etc.) Don't give the government an excuse for a LibertyDollar-style confiscation from anyone, small as their stockpile may be.  Even among anti-government types, there was this whole debate at the FTL bbs on whether or not LibertyDollars was a scam, simply because they had to change their USD/Oz.Ag conversion periodically.

just a few tips to designers (still mulling over ideas on my own, love the idea).

I'd avoid using names like Aggies and Auggies, just because they sound too similar. For the best ease of use, you want something that can be easily differentiated. Nobody confused dollars and cents.

I do think having the weight on them is the best bet, because that can most easily be converted into competing currencies, like the US or Canadian Dollar. Having a named currency (Shires, Granites) that corresponds to a weight also works but would require more explanation to uninitiated.

Testing:

I think the sound may be able to be used as an easy way to test them quickly, although I don't know much about it. Maybe the testing kit could be a tuning fork and one of those tuning gizmos?

I think vending machines use a system involving a magnet, though I could be wrong. Anyone know how this works, if its transferable?

The easiest method may be to keep one silver coin known to be pure, and simply compare it to the suspect, volume and weight wise

One other idea: Old coins had a hole in the middle so you could string multiple coins together. Would that make backyard production too difficult? if not, it might be a useful idea.

Call them Porcs

1oz. = a porc

1/2 porc

1/4 porc

1/8 porc

We should cut the Porc into seven parts.  That way the fractionally challenged wouldn't have to relate 1/2 Porc = 4/8 Porc.
It would always be 3/7 Porc = three pieces of a divided Porc, 4/7 Porc = 4 pieces of a divided
Porc.

Ounce of gold is a porc
Ounce of silver is a quill
Ounce of copper is... [?]

Quote from: yonder on January 14, 2008, 07:38 PM NHFT
Ounce of gold is a porc
Ounce of silver is a quill
Ounce of copper is... [?]

...a soft underbelly!



Oops! I think I was just channeling Blackie. :o

Quote from: Ron Helwig on December 22, 2007, 11:57 AM NHFT

Quote from: Kat Kanning on December 22, 2007, 11:29 AM NHFT
I liked Optima.

So no one is interested in explaining Shire Silver?

Sorry, but we're a bit busy. Is there a deadline?

It was just a long deadline.  If you'd like something in the February issue, I'd need it by the 20th.

Quote from: yonder on January 14, 2008, 07:38 PM NHFTOunce of gold is a porc
Ounce of silver is a quill

I'm liking that.

Or make a ounce of gold a "Granite," an ounce of silver a "Porc" and an ounce of copper a "Quill."

Abbreviate "Granite" to "GT" to avoid "grams"

Joe

Quote from: jcchriste on January 14, 2008, 02:17 PM NHFT
...
Testing:

I think the sound may be able to be used as an easy way to test them quickly, although I don't know much about it. Maybe the testing kit could be a tuning fork and one of those tuning gizmos?

I think vending machines use a system involving a magnet, though I could be wrong. Anyone know how this works, if its transferable?

The easiest method may be to keep one silver coin known to be pure, and simply compare it to the suspect, volume and weight wise

I have heard that beyond using sizing gates, some coin-accepter mechanisms use a bouncing stage where the coin has to bounce the right distance to fall into the next chute... Sounds like a Rube Goldberg contraption  :) but maybe it's what is needed.

Thinking.... hmmm.

You could find the manufacturers on the internets, but not sure if they are secretive about their methods and mechanisms. Might be some info available in a patent search.

Just a reminder...

The whole reason we need this Shire Silver project in the first place is that the Founding Fathers "named" the currency. By calling it a "dollar", they (probably unintentionally) got people to stop thinking in terms of ounces of silver and start thinking of "dollars" as something in and of itself. That allowed the definition of the currency to be changed, thus debasing the currency.

In other words, I am vehemently opposed to calling them anything other than "{measurement} of {element}" or "{element} {measurement}s".

plus you're the guy fronting the money for the project.

(Also, after the design is picked you can nickname the coin whatever you want.  Gold Eagles, Silver Libertys, Gold Maple Leaf, and others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_coin#Bullion_coins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_coin#Bullion_coins))

Can people buy shares in your die?

Quote from: sandm000 on January 15, 2008, 09:05 AM NHFT
Can people buy shares in your die?

The idea is that you can buy your own die set, and produce your own!

Massively distributed currency generation is the only way I can think of to return control of the money to the people. The Liberty Dollar case certainly points out that you don't want a centralized system with a "head" that can be cut off. IMHO, Shire Silver only exists to facilitate the distributed production and promotion of silver as a currency.

My thinking is that once we have a design, we will create a test die set. Then we will try various methods out, determining what can be used for pressing/minting the pieces. Then we start making and selling the dies and instructions for the various presses. Build your own press, make your own money!

Quote from: Ron Helwig on January 15, 2008, 08:56 AM NHFT
Just a reminder...

The whole reason we need this Shire Silver project in the first place is that the Founding Fathers "named" the currency. By calling it a "dollar", they (probably unintentionally) got people to stop thinking in terms of ounces of silver and start thinking of "dollars" as something in and of itself. That allowed the definition of the currency to be changed, thus debasing the currency.

In other words, I am vehemently opposed to calling them anything other than "{measurement} of {element}" or "{element} {measurement}s".

Exactly. This is also a reason, I think, to move away from Troy ounces, because it's already an obscure, archaic unit that's not used for anything else.

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on January 15, 2008, 02:39 PM NHFT

Quote from: Ron Helwig on January 15, 2008, 08:56 AM NHFT
Just a reminder...

The whole reason we need this Shire Silver project in the first place is that the Founding Fathers "named" the currency. By calling it a "dollar", they (probably unintentionally) got people to stop thinking in terms of ounces of silver and start thinking of "dollars" as something in and of itself. That allowed the definition of the currency to be changed, thus debasing the currency.

In other words, I am vehemently opposed to calling them anything other than "{measurement} of {element}" or "{element} {measurement}s".

Exactly. This is also a reason, I think, to move away from Troy ounces, because it's already an obscure, archaic unit that's not used for anything else.

So we should use grams right? Not the other type of Ounce, because the avoirdupois system is just as archaic, right? Besides 30 grams is a bit more than a avoirdupois oz and a bit less than a troy oz, plus it's a multiple of ten, which for some reason seems to be easier to use than 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc etc. when subdividing the unit for mathematical purposes.

As someone who buys a lot of silver already I would like to throw in my 2 cents since you are still in the designing phase. There are lots of coins on the market already and many people are already familiar with 1 oz of silver or gold and likewise with the fractionals. To start over with grams will confuse the masses basically. My suggeastion would be to stick with the OZ designation and also 1/10, 1/4, 1/2. Its just going to be easier IMO.. Also you can get coins made like you are doing. Theres a couple of places that will do it. APMEX is one of them. Theres a gold and silver forum that I am also a part of and they had custom coins made for themselves last year. You paid for the dies and then they made all you wanted. The more you order the cheaper it was I believe. They ordered 3000 oz of silver coins and paid a buck over spot. You pick the day you will lock in the price and go from there.

Heres a couple photos of some coins I have, just generic rounds.

Last photo

Quote from: sandm000 on January 15, 2008, 02:55 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on January 15, 2008, 02:39 PM NHFT

Quote from: Ron Helwig on January 15, 2008, 08:56 AM NHFT
Just a reminder...

The whole reason we need this Shire Silver project in the first place is that the Founding Fathers "named" the currency. By calling it a "dollar", they (probably unintentionally) got people to stop thinking in terms of ounces of silver and start thinking of "dollars" as something in and of itself. That allowed the definition of the currency to be changed, thus debasing the currency.

In other words, I am vehemently opposed to calling them anything other than "{measurement} of {element}" or "{element} {measurement}s".

Exactly. This is also a reason, I think, to move away from Troy ounces, because it's already an obscure, archaic unit that's not used for anything else.

So we should use grams right? Not the other type of Ounce, because the avoirdupois system is just as archaic, right? Besides 30 grams is a bit more than a avoirdupois oz and a bit less than a troy oz, plus it's a multiple of ten, which for some reason seems to be easier to use than 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc etc. when subdividing the unit for mathematical purposes.

I would prefer grams. The Avoirdupois ounce isn't archaic; it's in current, wide use now as a "standard" weight in the U.S., but it'd just cause confusion with people thinking it was the Troy ounce.

The current system in place for gold is 1 oz 1/2 oz 1/4 oz 1/10oz and 1/20 oz. Currently i can take the spot price of gold and figure out the value of each size pretty fast and in my head. Since the spot price is dont in oz it makes sence to keep the denominations that way. If you price these in grams then you need to take the spot price and divide by 31.1034768 and then multiply by the number of grams. Just my opinion of course.
If people are going to accept payment in metal instead of or in addition to frn's then that system is already in place really. At apmex.com you can buy gold in oz's or grams and the bars come with assay cards to gaurentee purity. Silver can also be had in any denomination from 1oz to 1000 oz bars. I havent seen any silver priced in grams so that would be a new thing.

I like the idea and in all honesty I was going to do something similar. I decided not to because I just dont see why people would want to buy from me versus the sources that are already available. Many times i can already buy silver below spot and gold right around spot at bulliondirect as well.

Don't like math?
Check gold price in grams here http://goldprice.org/gold-price-per-gram.html (http://goldprice.org/gold-price-per-gram.html)

I dont mind the math I just think its going to be confusing. Most people associate 1 oz having 28 grams in it. If i go to pay someone with a 1 oz gold coin that is a troy oz they will all need to be aware that it contains 31+ grm and not 28. If you are also making a coin that is 28 grams then your dealing with 2 different metal standards. The confusion will cost some people money and because of that they will be hesitant to use the system. Again, its just my opinion and is meaningless in the scheme of things if I am the only person using a different system. If this is a localised system just for people here then its probably fine. If you want it to take off nationwide I would see complications with it. IMO the world standard is already set up. why deviate from that?

Quote from: cigarlover on January 16, 2008, 09:18 AM NHFT
If you are also making a coin that is 28 grams
...
IMO the world standard is already set up. why deviate from that?

Why would anyone make a 28 gram piece? I was figuring on a 10 gram piece. That should come out to about $10, currently.

Yes, the world standard is grams/metric. Anything we can do to get the U.S. away from the royal system is a good thing!  :)

I don't necessarily agree with Ron on moving away from the Imperial system.  As Fahrenheit makes way too much sense (Temps in the last 12 months have been between 0 and 100 degrees) It's like a percentage scale, where celsius is we would have seen -18 to 40 degrees celsius.  I don't know when to put on a T shirt,  30 will always sound cold to me.  Plus Everyone has a foot and it's a good estimate of a foot (with the shoe on)  Also from the center of the chest to the tip of the outstretched middle finger is about a yard (or a meter, I'll concede this point)  Hand held foods are closer to a pound than to a Kilogram.

I think that the Imperial system is more human than the Metric system.  However the Metric system does lend itself more readily to mathematical adjustment.  Which is why the money should be in grams.
A ten g, twenty g (or 25 if you prefer) & 50g piece would probably be fine for every day use, however so many people are used to a 1 oz piece I've been suggesting the use of a 30 g piece as it's slightly smaller than a Troy ounce, but slightly larger than an avordupois oz.  And if you weigh a coin before accepting it (with a scale built into your register for just that purpose) You won't have to worry about accepting one oz for the other, or mistaking a 30g coin for a troy oz coin.

Maybe I just get confused easily :) 10gr for 10$ obviously we are discussing silver. Vrs 1oz for about 15.50 today. 10 gr is aprox 1/3 of an oz or about 5.15 aprox worth of silver. If I am the owner of a restaurant and I have a choice, and the bill is 20.00 then I could take 20 frn or aprox 40 grm of silver? Is that the idea?
I do like the idea I just tend to put it into practical use and try it out in my mind first I guess. As you mentioned in the other thread you would want to set the price once a week on a Sunday or whatever day you choose. How would that work out i the real world though?
Silver is very volatile and in the long run I do see it going higher but that may not always be the case.
If we took last week as an example, silver was on a 2 week run and would be worth more over the last couple of weeks. If it turns around this week and moves down considerably then that could be a big hit for a business. So if you are setting the price on Sunday are you the market maker so to speak and will gaurentee that price for the week? You then hedge your bets based on a certain volume and take short positions on the comex?  As a potential business owner that would be my main concern. If I do 10k a week in silver transactions and silver loses 5-10% for the week I would like to know I am safe for the week and could cash those in at the price that was set last sunday. This would be especially true in the summer months when silver traditionally doesnt do so well.
Maybe all of this was covered already, I will need to go back through the threads and see. Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand the whole concept.

The dollar is really volatile as well. You're calling silver volatile because it's dollar value fluctuates but you must realize that's based on poor assumptions. What businesses should be asking is why they aren't adjusting the dollar price of their goods every day.

I agree but thats the system we live in and until I can pay my rent or mortgage in silver or gold, its the system we are stuck with. Also even a metal system will have a floating value. Always did. Even when silver was currency in the 1800.s there was inflation from having to many in circulation. There's a reason why only congress had the power to coin money, and that was to prevent anyone from going out in their backyard(Assuming they had gold or silver in their backyard) and just dig up some silver and start coining and flooding the market with silver or gold.
What your suggesting here is that people do exactly that. I for one would be very leary about taking money from anyone who is coining it themselves in their garage. Nothing personal of course but when someone walks into my store with their own money how am I to know that what they are handing me is gaurenteed .999fine without doing an assay with a refiner? I would have a lot more confidence accpeting sunshine or prospector rounds than I would over taking whatever generics someone is making in their garage. Which of course begs the question, why this system over just using what is already in place?

If I go in to make a major purchase with 100 ozs or more who is going to take the time to weigh each one or test each one or scrutinize each one. If everyone is stmping their own money it leaves a lot of room for dishonest people to make up some funny money and slip it in here and there. This is the reason you do need one central location similar to the LD. Thats also why currently people pay a premium for englegard rounds or actual coins from the US or other countries mints. Its the gaurentee that they are real and authentic.

http://www.david-laserscanner.com/ (http://www.david-laserscanner.com/)

This guy developed a 3D laser scanner for $200 (I'm sure there are cheaper versions out there). In seconds you would have the volume of the coin in question. Couple with a counter scale and bam instant ID of the coin.  Actually, you could probably use the Scanner Scale http://cgi.ebay.com/Refurbished-Fujitsu-9900-Scanner-Scale_W0QQitemZ260033233362QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Refurbished-Fujitsu-9900-Scanner-Scale_W0QQitemZ260033233362QQcmdZViewItem) you have that scans barcodes and weighs produces do the job for you. Instant coin valuation.

Also why would you take a large number of little coins to pay for a car?  Wouldn't you get a small number of larger gold coins? So you would only need 20 coins at most.  I guess you could pay in 10g silver pieces, but it would be like paying for dinner in pennies, somebody might reject the money on the basis that they don't want to count it.

Quote from: dalebert on January 16, 2008, 12:44 PM NHFT
The dollar is really volatile as well. You're calling silver volatile because it's dollar value fluctuates but you must realize that's based on poor assumptions. What businesses should be asking is why they aren't adjusting the dollar price of their goods every day.

We do. But its according to re-stocking and margin. Such that fast selling items will low margins tend to fluctuate more. Gasoline is an easy example.

We had a great Shire Silver meeting last night. I'm hoping Bill posts the notes at http://shiresilver.org (http://shiresilver.org) soon.

So no Shire Silver Contest in the Feb. newspaper?

Quote from: Kat Kanning on January 24, 2008, 08:34 AM NHFT
So no Shire Silver Contest in the Feb. newspaper?

I just reminded Ryan, who is pretty much in charge of the contest. He should be able to get something to you today.

Quote from: Ron Helwig on January 21, 2008, 11:33 AM NHFT
We had a great Shire Silver meeting last night. I'm hoping Bill posts the notes at http://shiresilver.org (http://shiresilver.org) soon.

Well Heaven's to Betsy, I just might.
Of course, it would be helpful if I, oh I don't know, got an email asking me to do that - instead of happening across this post buried in a thread at random...   ::)

Secretary Bill has a 'tude!

Maybe he's tired of being chased around his desk.

It's a big desk with lots 'o obstacles.
And I have to carry all that hair behind me.  And the guns.
I might knock over my coffee.   :icon_pirat:

Jay suggested a Carl Drega coin.

Porcupine on one side, and the Liberty Bell on the other and "In Freedom We Trust" as the inscription..  8)

Deadline ended Sunday, press release forthcoming.....

Can we expect to see that release here?

http://shiresilver.org/sites/shiresilver.org/files/sspressrel031008.pdf (http://shiresilver.org/sites/shiresilver.org/files/sspressrel031008.pdf)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CONTACT:
Ryan Marvin
shiresilver@gmail.com

Ron Helwig
ron@ronhelwig.com


Shire Silver Announces Initial Bullion Design

Manchester, NH, March 10, 2008 - The Shire Silver team is proud to announce the final design for the first run of a locally produced, open source precious metal exchange bullion.

(http://shiresilver.org/sites/shiresilver.org/files/images/sslayout.GIF)

Purpose

The purpose of the Shire Silver project is to produce a metal bullion that is easy for anyone to produce, easy to exchange, easily recognizable, and easily distinguishable from any government-issued currency or bullion.

Denomination

The project will use two base units in parallel: the fractional troy ounce and the decimal gram. Initially, 1 ounce and 10 gram pieces will be produced. These will be followed with 1/2 oz, 1/4 oz, 20 gram, and 50 gram.

When demand rises, 1/8 oz, 5 oz, 5 gram, and 100 gram units may be produced. If and when there is demand for units outside that range, a copper or gold base (other precious) metals will be used, with appropriate changes to the design of the specimen.

Shape

The shape of the bullion will be a rounded square for those denominated in metric weight, and a rounded rectangle for those in troy weight. This both helps distinguish troy from metric specie and makes them even more easily distinguishable from any government-issued currency.

Complexity of Design

All text and graphics are rendered so that they can be struck with a two-level die (foreground and background only) as opposed to multi-level or sculpted dies. This provides for less expensive die manufacture and a more uniform detail quality when produced with home-based or hobbyist equipment.

Text

The text on the obverse will consist of the name "Shire Silver", descriptors of the weight and metal content, the website address, and the motto "Defending Traditional Value."

Symbols

The textual symbol to be used for Shire Silver will be the section symbol (Unicode U+00A7) intersected by two horizontal strokes. The section symbol, in addition to being a doubling of the letter "S", is associated in the western world with justice and wealth. The horizontal strokes have been used in symbols in the bullion trade for centuries as a symbol of stability and fairness.

The main graphic image consists of 12 spitzer bullets fanned out into the shape of a flower. It symbolizes the inseverable relationship between peace and a willingness to defend one's self from all aggression, regardless of the direction from which it originates. Adequate space is provided to the upper right of this image for applying a mint mark when appropriate.

Reverse

No imagery was chosen for the reverse. It was decided to use this space to emphasize that the intrinsic value of the piece derives not from the people who minted it or from the words or images on it, but rather from the metal from which it is composed. As such, the reverse depicts the chemical properties of silver as depicted on the periodic table.

Contributors to Final Design

IA, RH, RJ, KM, RM, BW.

ABOUT SHIRE SILVER

Shire Silver is a volunteer project working to produce an inflation-proof metal bullion for voluntary exchange that is easy for anyone to produce, easy to exchange, easily recognizable, and easily distinguishable from any government-issued currency or bullion. More information is available at www.shiresilver.com
-END-

 8)

Have you chosen a die supplier yet?  Did you find a source for the correct size and shape of specie?

Quote from: Eli on March 10, 2008, 02:56 PM NHFT
Have you chosen a die supplier yet?  Did you find a source for the correct size and shape of specie?

Us, and us. Next question?

I'm glad you went with this design.   I showed it to someone and they suggested there could be a problem with metal flow out in the corners.

I was hoping to put something in the paper .... that press release looks like the calculations for making the coins ... I don't get it.

What exactly do you want for the paper?

Something that is interesting to normal people. :)

Quote from: ReverendRyan on March 10, 2008, 03:01 PM NHFT

Quote from: Eli on March 10, 2008, 02:56 PM NHFT
Have you chosen a die supplier yet?  Did you find a source for the correct size and shape of specie?

Us, and us. Next question?

When can I get some?   :)

Well, first you find a willing lady....

Quote from: 41mag on March 10, 2008, 06:58 PM NHFT

Quote from: ReverendRyan on March 10, 2008, 03:01 PM NHFT

Quote from: Eli on March 10, 2008, 02:56 PM NHFT
Have you chosen a die supplier yet?  Did you find a source for the correct size and shape of specie?

Us, and us. Next question?

When can I get some?   :)

Our target date is Porcfest, but I can't guarantee that. I can put you on the list, though. PM me with what and how much you want and we can contact you directly when they're ready for purchase.

Quote from: Kat Kanning on March 10, 2008, 06:59 PM NHFT
Well, first you find a willing lady....

(http://images.google.com/url?q=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5197MXZSXYL._AA280_.jpg&usg=AFQjCNHq27zdw1Lr0j1mDkkGNqlFRGbsVA)

Your target is porcfest for dies and blanks?  Or pressed coins?

Quote from: Eli on March 13, 2008, 08:13 AM NHFT
Your target is porcfest for dies and blanks?  Or pressed coins?

Die + Blank = Product

Quote from: ReverendRyan on March 13, 2008, 02:01 PM NHFT

Quote from: Eli on March 13, 2008, 08:13 AM NHFT
Your target is porcfest for dies and blanks?  Or pressed coins?

Die + Blank = Product

Might need a press and de-bug of process and re-work of dies, annealing and cleaning of blank. I've heard "All you gotta do is..." a lot from non-practicing (wannabe manufacturing engineers) spectators before. That's not "all you gotta do"... but it'll be good to see it get started anywho. Would it were all you gotta do is throw the dies and blanks in a box and shake 'em up and you get coins!

Is there a ball park price range? So I know how much to sock away?

I recommend a demonstration to remove fears about efficacy. It would make a fun event at Porcfest.

Quote from: dalebert on March 14, 2008, 09:53 AM NHFT
I recommend a demonstration to remove fears about efficacy. It would make a fun event at Porcfest.

That has always been part of the plan, if it can be done. (It should be doable, but you never know)