New Hampshire Underground

 Robert Saulnier has been arrested for Trespassing on 22 Grenier Field Rd

June 29th 2005 - Londonderry, N.H. - Police arrested Robert Saulnier while he was peacefully protesting on the property. A court date has been scheduled for August 15th 2005.

More details will follow...
Supreme Court Judgment Against the Town of Londonderry

The N.H. Supreme Court has ruled that the Town of Londonderry is responsible for the clean-up at 22 Grenier Field Road and that the Town is neither a holder, nor a qualifying holder of the property. **** Click here **** to read the court's ruling.
My Story

Because of an escrow problem, I fell behind on my property taxes. The town started tax liens in the early 1990s. Because of the escrow money that would not be released by N.F.S. bank, I fell behind each year after these tax liens.

I would go to the town hall with a bank check in-hand for the amount of one year's property taxes. The Town manager at the time was Richard Plante. He would look at the check and say, "It's not enough," and then hand it back to me. In all, over the years, I tried to give the town approximately $28,000 in property tax money.

As I found out later, the town is bound by state law R.S.A. 80:71 regarding partial payments. It says that the town shall take partial payments and apply it to towards the outstanding tax debt. This is the first law among many that the Town has violated, without any regard to State or Federal regulations pertaining to tax deeding.

Each year at tax time they would send me a letter telling me that they were going to deed the property to themselves by a certain date if I didn't pay the whole tax bill. Every year I got the same typed letter, only with a different deeding date. On April 8, 1999 I got a letter just like I had been getting over these years, again I went to the town and tried to give them a bank check for $4,406.00, and they again said no.

Three years went by, and on April 8, 2002 I received a letter from the town telling me that they had deeded my property to themselves in 1999, and that if I came up with $96,000 within 30 days I could have the deed back. This $96,000 sum was grossly inflated due to penalty charges and the 18% interest rate applied to the debt. Had the Town accepted the partial payments that I attempted to give, far less money would have been owed on the property, and it never would have come to this..

Over that 30 day period I tried everything to make some kind of a arrangement with these property taxes. My contacts were, at that point, a new town manager, Dave Caron, and the finance director Susan Hickey. "Absolutely no deals," the town manager told me he wanted the property.

As I started looking through relevant state statutes applying to legal tax deeding, I soon found out that the town the court and its agents managed to break nearly every law in the book to literally steal this property.

Here is a partial list of laws and N.H. RSAs that these so-called "officers of the court" have (so far) gotten away with breaking:

    * RSA 80:71 (Regarding their obligation to accept partial payments)
    * RSA 80:21 (Regarding mandatory notice of sale)
    * RSA 80:29 (Regarding conduct of sale)
    * RSA 80:38 (Regarding tax deeding)
    * RSA 80:89 (Regarding right to re-purchase)

The Town of Londonderry is completely out of control. Something has to stop the tyranny in this County.

Here's an opportunity to support someone who's been beaten up (figuratively) by the government.

This is a new tresspassing charge. It's been reported that the Town is planning on buiilding a new firestation on the property in 2006. What a coincidence...

I've sent an LTE to the union leader about this case which is posted to the LTE thread in "General Discussion"
But I didn't think to mention the court date or urge supporters to be there.  Anyone who can write an LTE detailing that?

I am Robert Saulnier's daughter, and I truly appreciate the creation of this thread.

This entire ordeal has been a nightmare.? The only criminal record that he holds is as a result of 'trespassing' on the property that he owned for over twenty years, and the Town Manager actually had the nerve to hang up an enlarged copy of his driver's license outside of the Town Hall saying "If you see this person call emergency 9-1-1."? This sign was in a locked case for all to see.

Town officials have also claimed in Union Leader interviews that he hadn't paid penny in property taxes for over ten years, which is flatly untrue, given that they refused $28,000 in partial payments - we have copies of the bank checks...?

After having such difficulties with local lawyers, he has decided to go into the court date on August 15th pro se.? The paperwork / evidence against the town is overwhelming, given the amount of statutes that they have violated in the process of confiscating the property illegally.

We're in the process of revamping the website to add in scanned copies of all of the supporting paperwork.? More details will be posted on the site soon.

Thank you for the support!
Anne

Anne...very glad you are here.? Can you tell us when the next two meetings of the Londonderry town council are?? I understand they meet twice a week...and am thinking we could schedule a protest in support of you, for them to see on the way in, and for those driving by to see while the meeting is on.? ?If that is something you want...let us know what you would and wouldn't want us to do. Is the town manager the perpetrator-in-chief here or is it someone else?? ?What is his name?

We could probably get 5 or 10 people with signs and flags to a protest depending on how much notice there is.? Unless you guys have better ideas...? We may be able to set something up for aug 15 too though it could cause them to change the court date.

Quote from: salty on July 04, 2005, 09:29 PM NHFT
I am Robert Saulnier's daughter, and I truly appreciate the creation of this thread.

Anne, thank you!

I had heard no mention of your father until after one of our group staged her own tax protest. If nothing else, I hope we can bring the light of public scrutiny to your situation. Even better would be full restitution of what's been taken from your family. I don't know how you get the time back, nor the years the stress takes from your life, but hopefully we can at least get your land back, and compensation for the house.

Kevin

Welcome, Anne!

Let us know what we can do to help.  At the very least, we could protest outside the courhouse for his trial.

Thank you? :)

I think that protesting outside of the Town meetings would be extremely beneficial.? At the last meeting my father had the mic long enough to state his case, so it would be an excellent follow up.? One of the members of the Town Council actually denied that the property was being considered as a location for the new firehouse (even after the big write up in the paper).? I'll find out from him when the next meetings are.?

The judge at his arraignment seemed to be very willing to hear the details of the case, so we're hoping that protesting outside of the courthouse will not be necessary for this go-around.? If the court date does not go well, then he will probably continue to protest near the property on Grenier Field Road.?

Council meets every two weeks. I'll check the schedule.
Which Councilor is denied that they are considering putting the new firestation on Grenier?

Next Council meeting is 7/21.

They will be touring the existing fire department facilities prior to the meeting.

It was Brian Farmer that denied the 22 Grenier Field Road property was being considered.

salty is welcoming anyone who wants to show up and attend the trial in support of him, but not really wanting a protest because of the likelihood that could change the court date.  I plan to be there unless i hear of a date change.

Court date is 9 a.m. aug 15 monday at the Derry District Courthouse (10 Manning St).  I think that all of the sessions are scheduled for the same time, so I'm not sure what time it will be heard exactly.

Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 14, 2005, 10:03 AM NHFT
salty is welcoming anyone who wants to show up and attend the trial in support of him, but not really wanting a protest because of the likelihood that could change the court date.? I plan to be there unless i hear of a date change.

Court date is 9 a.m. aug 15 monday at the Derry District Courthouse (10 Manning St).? I think that all of the sessions are scheduled for the same time, so I'm not sure what time it will be heard exactly.

I am SO THERE!!!   :o

Okay, I'll try to behave and not protest, but only because they specifically asked for it.  ;)

Merci beaucoup, Mike, for coming out? :)? It was really awesome of you to do that, and we greatly appreciate the support...

Today definitely didn't go as well as we would have hoped.? The Derry District Court is set up with general sessions (everyone is given the same court time).? We were scheduled for 9 a.m., but the docket was pretty full.? We ended up being called just after 3:00 p.m..

Dad's entire defense for the criminal trespassing charge is based upon questioning the ownership of the property.? All of the documentation that we had put together regarding the matter was not accepted by the court because there have been other rulings related to the property in question and the Judge wanted an opportunity to review the judgments before looking at the paperwork.? Thus, we also couldn't ask the witnesses any questions pertaining to ownership and have to wait for the continuance of the trial on Wednesday to find out if it will even be admitted at all.?

It's so frustrating.? I definitely wish I had a law degree.? All and all I think the Judge seemed like a good guy though, so hopefully the evidence will be allowed on Wednesday at 11:00 a.m..? We shall see...? If the ownership issues are not allowed then there's still the question of why he was arrested for protesting on public property.? Otherwise, he will have to spend 72 days in jail.

Here's the info that we attempted to present (including a summary and relevant scanned documents related to how the Town failed to comply with mandatory statutes regarding taxation and foreclosures:

http://www.LondonderryDidThis.com/CourtSummary.zip (it's about 1.78 MB)

The rest of the sessions that we heard definitely give some frightening insight into the system.? There are a lot of tragic cases out there with defendants that waive their constitutional rights for stupid offenses.? One guy was arrested at his home for possession of alcohol because it was found in his blood.? Another received a six month jail sentence for stealing baby formula and diapers (though the latter was a repeat offender and was very accepting of the sentence).

Definitely not an uplifting day in court?
:(

Quote from: technigirl on August 15, 2005, 04:46 PM NHFT
If the ownership issues are not allowed then there's still the question of why he was arrested for protesting on public property.

Ah, that is the question, isn't it? If it was his property, he couldn't be trespassing. If it was city property, he couldn't be trespassing.

Quote
Definitely not an uplifting day in court?
:(

Hang in there. I wish I could offer more than kind words. You and your family are an inspiration, and I hate to see you being dragged through this.

Kevin

Bienvenue, Anne.  :)

BTW, do you remember the name of the judge?

Nevermind, found it.  It's Justice John J. Coughlin.

It feels great to have been there for Salty.? It was sad to see so many people, at least two-thirds of those in court, being charged with victimless crimes.

One man, as Anne said, was charged with illegal possession of alcohol for having alcohol in his blood while drinking in his own home. :o? Another man was charged with drunk driving for being responsible and sleeping in his car while he was drunk instead of being irresponsible and driving.? :o? He had the keys in the ignition, so they considered that "driving".? He probably just wanted to listen to the radio or use the air conditioner.? 3 or 4 others were charged with possessing a small amount of a plant that the government doesn't like.? 3 others were charged with driving without the government's permission.? Only one-third of those charged had actually stolen anything or hurt anyone.

WMUR and Londonderry Times reporters recognized me.? We explained to WMUR what we were doing but they decided not to cover it at the time - WMUR was in our courtroom for the DHL Heist story.? WMUR showed film on TV tonight from the exact courtroom we were in.? 8)? I want to get a snapshot of this video of the courtroom and the judge for our front page, but some custom video codecs on my computer are spazzing right now and the video looks orange!? Can someone get a snapshot of it?
http://www.thewmurchannel.com/news/4852639/detail.html

Beth from the Portsmouth Herald called twice while I was in court with Salty.? She wanted my comment on a story out of Manchester of a man who was arrested after his car broke down.? The man was a fugitive with an arrest warrant for operating an unlicensed barber shop.? :o

I called her back and said that as long as his customers knew they were buying services from an unlicensed barber shop, then no harm has been done and I would defend him.? However, if he hid this fact from his customers, then I will not defend him, even though I believe he should not need a license to operate.

I spent the day with the Saulniers family and their friend and learned quite a bit about them.? They are very nice, decent people.? I vowed to fast for Salty if and when the time comes.? If he goes to jail for 72 days and I fast for a while and risk death by starvation, I feel it will be worth it.? :)? The town in this matter is an absolute tyrant that appears to have had every intention of taking Salty's home from the very beginning.? ?:-\

Oh yeah, the WMUR reporter's name was Kevin Flynn.

Nevermind, I figured out the video problem.  The new nVidia video drivers do not like hardware video acceleration.

But it doesn't matter because the video is too small and grainy for a snapshot to use on our front page.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 15, 2005, 09:34 PM NHFT
was charged with illegal possession of alcohol for having alcohol in his blood while drinking in his own home.

Crazy...............Shouldn't the State be charged as well?
I mean who sold him the liquor?

Quote from: technigirl on August 15, 2005, 04:46 PM NHFT
It's so frustrating.? I definitely wish I had a law degree.? All and all I think the Judge seemed like a good guy though, so hopefully the evidence will be allowed on Wednesday at 11:00 a.m.

I'll be there on Wednesday at 11am.? Hopefully more Porcupines will join us this time.

If Salty's convicted at Wednesday's trial, he'll be sentenced and arrested on the spot, right?? I need to bring a camera to this one and pre-write a press release for my fast just incase he does not win.? ?:-\

I think he found a relatively reasonable judge for this one and I'm very hopeful of a good or at least mixed outcome for him.? :)

Salty could be in jailed within the next 36 hours for a possible sentence of over 72 DAYS IN JAIL for trespassing on his own property! :o :o :o

I'm starting on the press release right now, just incase he's convicted tomorrow.

LET'S DO THIS!!!

The judge seemed relatively reasonable and allowed Salty to make many procedural mistakes because he was defending himself pro se, but that didn't last long.

The government's methods in court are filthy and disgust me to the core.? They refused to enter into evidence ANYTHING Salty presented, including a copy of an authentic document signed by the Town Manager's attorney, copies of RSAs applicable to the case, and photographic evidence of attempted partial payments!? ?:o :o :o? The prosecution objected and dismissed the letter as "hearsay" because it was not signed by the actual Town Manager.? ?::)? The worst part is that the judge, who seems relatively reasonable for a district judge, upheld that objection and refused to accept the signed document into evidence, calling it "hearsay" in his own words.

However, when it came to the government's evidence, Salty allowed it because he believed it was only fair.? He's trying to be nice and respectful, unlike the state, but it's hard for him because he has a lot of strong emotions in this case.? Perhaps it would be best to have his daughter do the talking for him, if she's up for it.? I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for him.? ?:-\

If the government's dirty methods do not completely reverse on Wednesday, then Derry District Court may be seen as a typical pro-big-government kangaroo court.? It will be sad if Salty loses this case because New Hampshire is the shining beacon of liberty in America today.

It took over 2 and a half hours, but here's the initial draft.? It's really long and will need approval, fact-checking, and a lot of work, but I need to sleep!

Here's the initial draft of a press release we can send out IF Salty loses in court tomorrow.

---

From NHFree.com
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Londonderry man jailed, activist vows to suffer

Derry, NH, August 17, 2005 - A Londonderry man arrested for trespassing on what he believes is his own property was convicted Wednesday and sentenced to 72 days in Rockingham County jail.? Meanwhile, a renowned libertarian activist will fast in order to secure his release.

Robert Saulnier, (age??), was arrested for the second time in July for trespassing on the property at 22 Grenier Field Road.? Once owned by Mr. Saulnier, this property was deeded to the Town of Londonderry in May of 1999 for his alleged failure to pay taxes due on the property.? The property is now the proposed future site of a Town fire station.

Saulnier rejects the Town's story.? He claims, "I temporarily fell behind on my property taxes and tried to make partial payments.? Despite my protests, the Town refused to accept my partial payments in violation of New Hampshire law, specifically RSA 80:71."

"The interest and fees built up until the Town illegally stole my property and paid me nothing in return for it.? Now they're arresting me for 'trespassing' on my own property!"

Saulnier admits he made the mistake of storing cars and spare parts on his neighbor's property while operating his car inspection business, but the Town of Londonderry is not entirely innocent in this matter.? In December, the New Hampshire Supreme Court upheld an earlier Superior Court ruling against the Town and Saulnier.? Londonderry was required to pay for cleanup of a property neighboring 22 Grenier Field Road because the Town failed to comply with State hazardous cleanup laws.

At his trial today in Derry District Court, Saulnier defended himself without an attorney.? He tried to convince Justice John Coughlin that he could not have been trespassing because the property was illegally taken from him.  He claims his prior guilty plea for trespassing on the property was entered "under duress" because he was held for 17 days without bail.

The court refused to accept several items of evidence from Saulnier including a 58-page booklet of legal documents, applicable State laws, and scanned copies of partial property tax payments refused by the Town.? Justice Coughlin even dismissed as "hearsay" a copy of an authentic document signed by the attorney of Londonderry's Town Manager, David Caron.

Saulnier and his family were visibly upset by the trial and conviction.? At one point during the trial, he told the judge, "what this town has done to my family is beyond comprehension."

About a half-dozen activists from the NH Underground (NHFree.com) recently protested in Londonderry in support of Saulnier.? Now Seacoast entrepreneur Michael Fisher, an avowed libertarian activist, will soon begin a fast in support of Saulnier, consuming nothing but water for several days.

Fisher caused a large commotion throughout New England in May after he was arrested for performing an unlicensed manicure in a public protest against licensing laws.? These days, he's protesting against government "theft" of private property.

"Each day, land is stolen by local governments through eminent domain and tax deed, and it's very rare that a family can defend itself against the vast resources of a government," Fisher said.? "It's time for local governments to learn respect for our rights.? I hope my fast will help protect the Saulnier family and others from the tyranny of local governments."

At 5 feet, 11 inches tall and only a little over 115 pounds, Fisher may not live very long without food.

Summary:

What:? Protest against the "theft" of private property by local governments.
How:? By consuming nothing but water for several days.
Why:? Because ownership of property is "an inalienable human right."
When:? The fast begins on Saturday, August 20, 2005.
Who:? Mike Fisher
Where:? The home of Mike Fisher at 7 Lamprey River Park, Newmarket, NH.
Contacts:? Mike Fisher (603) 498-7935, Backup:? Kat Dillon (603) 357-2049


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Damn it. I don't know what will happen first; will I become more of an internet type guy or will the damned phone ring once in a while . . .

Oh well, I'm up to speed on this one so far and for now, and will try to be there on Wed.

Mike, FYI they will not allow a camera beond the entrance. ?I had mine with me when I was there last and they wanted to take and hold it for me.
Instead I went out and put it in my car while in court, so that I could access it realy quickly as that took a NON-VIOLENT freind of mine off to PRISON - on a charge (BTW) wich did not include any prison time. ?GO FIGURE!


The fact that some of this evidence is not being allowed reminds my of a little booklet which I just read (called Treason). ?The booklet talks about how the system is no longer at all in the hands of the people but in complete control of lawyers. ?Government lawyers that is! ?If they don't like what you have to offer, they'll just all agree to through it out.


I think it is not to late to concider a jury trial? ?It is unlikely that they (the government lawyers) can pack the jury with all lawyers.
Maybe this man's fellow citizens can get this right. ?I don't think that this gang of lawyers could - even if they wanted to.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 14, 2005, 11:11 PM NHFT
Okay, I'll try to behave and not protest, but only because they specifically asked for it.? ;)

Same here!

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 15, 2005, 09:34 PM NHFTThe man was a fugitive with an arrest warrant for operating an unlicensed barber shop.? :o

I called her back and said that as long as his customers knew they were buying services from an unlicensed barber shop, then no harm has been done and I would defend him.? However, if he hid this fact from his customers, then I will not defend him, even though I believe he should not need a license to operate.

....if you don't think that licensing or other laws are important ... why would you advertise it? Are you going to list everything? You could be missing licenses that you don't even know about. The barber could be in violation of UN environmental laws .... but he just doesn't care. :D

I don't have a state drivers, city business, state business? and other licenses .... I also don't pay tons of taxes. Should I warn all my customers? ;D

I will come tomorrow if someone can pick me up. I have no vehicle and live a little too far to walk.

Cathleen

Cathleen, where do you live?

My Dad is going to go on a hunger strike if he ends up going to jail.? I am bringing a sign to protest after the case is finished if I feel that the outcome is unfair (perhaps with his dually pick up truck that has the red 21 foot windsock).? If they do not allow the property ownership issues to be brought up, then I am going to try and 'cross examine' the Town Manager (to the best of my ability given that the only legal background I have is watching Law and Order).? I will ask if it is customary to arrest people on public property for exercising their first amendment rights when they are not causing any damage and I?ll try to get in some other fast facts about how he?s been mistreated along the way until I am shut down by the Judge.? There were no signs on the property, and the order that told him that he could not go on the property expired last November...

Mike, my advice for the press release: leave your fast out of it. Talking about Salty's plan to hunger strike is fine, but the way your release is written, it quickly switches from being about Salty, to being about you.

The public automatically associate hunger strikes with publicity stunts. (I know your fast and a hunger strike are not exactly the same, but most people don't.) That kind of red flag means the rest of your message gets ignored.

By journalistic convention, the lead paragraph must only be a single sentence.

Kevin

Quote from: technigirl on August 16, 2005, 09:00 AM NHFTMy Dad is going to go on a hunger strike if he ends up going to jail.
....then I am going to try and 'cross examine' the Town Manager

8)

Hey do whatever you have to do... you shouldn't have to be a trial lawyer to be heard in a courtroom. Throw a mild fit in there .... let them know that you are getting screwed by the town.

I live near the Irving store at Londonderry Tpke and Tsienneto Rd. I am not familiar with the entire situation but will support your property rights and learn something too.

Both John C and Mike F know me.

Cathleen

Quote from: KBCraig on August 16, 2005, 09:17 AM NHFT
Mike, my advice for the press release: leave your fast out of it. Talking about Salty's plan to hunger strike is fine, but the way your release is written, it quickly switches from being about Salty, to being about you.

The public automatically associate hunger strikes with publicity stunts. (I know your fast and a hunger strike are not exactly the same, but most people don't.) That kind of red flag means the rest of your message gets ignored.

By journalistic convention, the lead paragraph must only be a single sentence.

Kevin

Thanks for the advice.? I'll somehow shorten the first paragraph.? I did not know Salty planned a hunger strike, so I was going to fast for him.

What will probably happen is that I will fast for him even if he goes on a hunger strike.? It's a double-whammy.? The only reason it should include information about my fast is because I'm making a significant self-sacrifice in order to bring to Salty any attention the public gives me.? There is a lot of public attention on the NH Underground movement, and if I can bring this attention to Salty's aid, then I must do so.

This is not about me, it's about Robert Saulnier.? There are large barriers to entry into the media spotlight, and since we've already gone over these hurdles, we must use this to our advantage.? There must be zero probability that Salty's imprisonment can be ignored.

But I need to change my quotes to be less confrontational and more nonviolent to avoid as much backlash and anger as possible, and I need to add information about Salty's proposed hunger strike to the press release.

Besides, this is also a way to show the media that we strongly support Saulnier.  It may make towns think twice before taking someone's home.

If we can do a good job getting this into the media spotlight, more families will approach us for help.  We can help them as well, and so on, until the theft of private property in this state is kept to a minimum!  :)

with all due respect, being someone only loosly following the situation. why are the Saulnier's letting this matter be herd in a "police court" (the Derry district court). I wos wondering if they have asked the matter to be herd in the supirior court as NH State Constitution part1 article 6 specificly provides for the right of  jury trial in matters concerning matter of Title to real estate? 
i really wondered if this was brought up to the magistrate at the Derry district court and what wasthe courts reply.

The charge at hand is criminal trespassing because he went onto the property in protest of Town's claim of ownership and the Town manager had him arrested.? ?

Quote from: cathleeninnh on August 16, 2005, 10:20 AM NHFT
I am not familiar with the entire situation but will support your property rights and learn something too.

BTW, Cathleen I forgot to answer earlier, but we can definitely pick you up.? :)

My cell phone number is 603.315.8564.

Anne, can I use that cell number to put you as the primary or secondary press contact?

I also need someone to be a backup press contact.  Kat?  Dave R?  Someone?

Yes, that's the best number for me.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 16, 2005, 02:02 AM NHFT

Robert Saulnier, (age??), was arrested for the second time in July for trespassing on the property at 22 Grenier Field Road.?

He is 66 years old.

Thanks!? Here's the new one so far, just incase he's convicted:

---

From NHFree.com
INITIAL DRAFT COPY - DO NOT RELEASE


Londonderry man and activist will fast because of jail sentence

Derry, NH, August 17, 2005 - A Londonderry man arrested for trespassing on what he believes is his own property was convicted Wednesday and sentenced to 72 days in Rockingham County jail, and now he and a renowned libertarian activist vow to fast in order to secure his release.

Robert Saulnier, 66, was arrested for the second time in July for trespassing on the property at 22 Grenier Field Road.? Once owned by Mr. Saulnier, this property was deeded to the Town of Londonderry in May of 1999 for his alleged failure to pay taxes due on the property.? The property is now the proposed future site of a Town fire station.

Saulnier rejects the Town's story.? Before today's trial, he claimed, "I temporarily fell behind on my property taxes and tried to make partial payments which the Town repeatedly refused in violation of RSA 80:71."

"The interest and fees built up until the Town illegally stole my property and paid me nothing in return for it.? Now they're arresting me for 'trespassing' on my own property!"

While operating his car inspection business, Saulnier admits he made the mistake of continuing to store cars and spare parts on his neighbor's property after it had been sold from the original owner who gave him permission to do so.  The Town of Londonderry, however, is not entirely innocent in this matter.

In December, the NH Supreme Court upheld an earlier Superior Court ruling against the Town and Saulnier.? Londonderry was required to pay for cleanup of a property neighboring 22 Grenier Field Road because the Town failed to comply with State hazardous cleanup laws.

At his trial today in Derry District Court, Saulnier defended himself without an attorney and tried to convince Justice John Coughlin that he could not have been trespassing because it is his land.? He claims his prior guilty plea for trespassing on this land was entered "under duress" because he was held for 17 days without bail after vowing to return to the property if released.

The court refused to accept any items of evidence from Saulnier including a 58-page booklet of legal documents, applicable State laws, and scanned copies of partial property tax payments that were refused by the Town.? Justice Coughlin even dismissed as "hearsay" a copy of an authentic document signed by the attorney of Londonderry's Town Manager, David Caron.

Saulnier and his family were visibly upset by the trial and conviction.? At one point he told the judge, "what this town has done to my family is beyond comprehension."

Like a scene out of a movie, Saulnier said that if convicted he will begin a fast for several days, consuming nothing but water and salt.? About six libertarian activists from the NH Underground (NHFree.com) recently protested in Londonderry to support him, and now one of them, Seacoast entrepreneur Michael Fisher, will also fast in support of Saulnier.? Weighing under 120 pounds, Fisher will not live very long without food.

Fisher caused a commotion throughout New England in May after he was arrested for performing an unlicensed manicure in a public protest against licensing laws.? These days, he and other NHFree.com activists are protesting against government "theft" of private property.

"I hope some day that local governments will learn respect for our rights," Fisher said of the fasts.? "The situation in this country is very grim.? Each day, land is stolen by local governments through eminent domain and tax deed, and it's very rare that a family can defend itself against the vast resources of a government."

Summary:

What:? Protest against the "theft" of private property by local governments.
How:? By consuming nothing but water for several days.
Why:? Because ownership of property is "an inalienable human right."
When:? Robert Saulnier's fast begins immediately.? Mike Fisher's fast begins on Saturday, August 20.
Who:? Robert Saulnier and Mike Fisher.
Where:? Rockingham County Jail and the home of Mike Fisher at 7 Lamprey River Park, Newmarket, NH.
Contacts:? Anne Saulnier (603) 315-8564, Mike Fisher (603) 498-7935, Backup:? ? ? ?


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I hope it's okay that I added your quote to our front page.? ?:)

I wonder what we should do if Salty wins this case.   ???

Nice quote :)  you can put whatever you like on the wiki.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 16, 2005, 03:26 PM NHFT
I hope it's okay that I added your quote to our front page.? ?:)

I wonder what we should do if Salty wins this case.? ????

Party?

Very interesting developments.  Dada Orwell, where are you?  No one has checked in from NH since prior to Porcfest!  We'd love to give you guys some coverage.  You should know by now you can call in anytime!

In regards to this case, I must recommend some material for the sake of keeping the right perspective:

Marc Sanders'
http://adventuresinlegalland.com

We had this guy on the show, and I think his approach is brilliant.  It either forces judges to throw out cases, or reveal themselves for the violent, anti-social people they really are.

There's enough free material on his site to give you a good idea of what this is all about.

I like this one:
http://www.adventuresinlegalland.com/Christian_nation.html

Marc also has an interesting blog:
http://thereisnostate.blogspot.com/

Hope this is helpful, though I realize it's last minute.

Quote from: technigirl on August 16, 2005, 01:58 PM NHFT
The charge at hand is criminal trespassing because he went onto the property in protest of Town's claim of ownership and the Town manager had him arrested.? ?

well it sounds like the title to realestate is in question. did you tell the district court magistrate (the judge) you wanted a jury trial??

You will not believe this.? Actually, you probably will.

sigh

The Town of Newmarket is currently trying to force someone to sell their property.  This person refuses to sell, and they're looking for help to stop the Town from stealing their property.? This is breaking news from an inside source.

What's worse?? Several of my friends in Town have voiced support for it regardless of the current environment of hostility toward eminent domain.

I can't let this happen in my own backyard.? ?:(

I know who it is and I'm going to call them tomorrow and offer my support.? Then, if this person says it's okay, I'll publicly announce this to everyone, including the media, and we'll attack it from the eminent domain angle.? That should put a stop to it.

I forgot to mention one thing.

The Town is trying to steal this property for public use so it may be extremely difficult to stop it from happening. :-\

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 16, 2005, 09:57 PM NHFT
I forgot to mention one thing.

The Town is trying to steal this property for public use so it may be extremely difficult to stop it from happening. :-\

NH Constitution:

[Art.] 12. [Protection and Taxation Reciprocal.] Every member of the community has a right to be protected by it, in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property; he is therefore bound to contribute his share in the expense of such protection, and to yield his personal service when necessary. But no part of a man's property shall be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. Nor are the inhabitants of this state controllable by any other laws than those to which they, or their representative body, have given their consent.

Quote from: GT on August 16, 2005, 10:00 PM NHFT
But no part of a man's property shall be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people.

"Representative body" = Town Council.

If 3 people on the Town Council vote for it, or if it's put on the ballot and approved, then this person's property is gone.

Anne!  I almost forgot!  Salty MUST approve of the quotes and facts contained in the press release before tomorrow's trial!

Please have him take a look at it if you can ASAP!

That's terrible! ?>:( ?Has the Town indicated specifically what the public use will be for the property?

Regarding the request for a jury trial:

There was supposed to be a trial on the Plea of Title Recognizance at the Superior Court in 2003. ?The Town of Londonderry subsequently put in a Motion for Entry of Judgement to the Superior Court to render the trial for the Plea of Title moot because he didn't pay the non-voluntary "rent" that was requested by the Town while the matter of ownership was being decided. ?The Judge granted the Town's motion because he defied the court order, and then his motion for reconsideration and motion for a jury trial were both denied.

If that makes no sense, then here is a direct link to relevant paperwork:

http://www.londonderrydidthis.com/documents/LandlordTenantPackage.pdf
http://www.londonderrydidthis.com/documents.aspx

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 16, 2005, 10:04 PM NHFT
Anne!? I almost forgot!? Salty MUST approve of the quotes and facts contained in the press release before tomorrow's trial!

Please have him take a look at it if you can ASAP!

He read the press release and says that everything looks good, but asked if it could be mentioned that he encroached on the neighbor's property because he was first given permission from the previous owner.? This may be a bit of a run-on, but:

"While operating his car inspection business, Saulnier admits he made the mistake of continuting to store cars and spare parts on his neighbor's property after it had been sold from the original owner who gave him permission to do so.? The Town of Londonderry, however, is not entirely innocent in this matter."

Great!  That has been changed so I assume it is approved!  :)

It looks good.?

I hope that the court will allow the information in and we don't have to post it :)

A few tips for Salty about fasting:

-In my fasts, I only consume water and salt, like Gandhi did.

-Sleep as much as possible while fasting. ?Yes, you literally sleep and lay down constantly for days or weeks while fasting.

-Do NOT work at all or do anything that will use up your energy while fasting. ?If you do any work at all, your fast may kill you.

-When breaking a fast, start with a small amount of diluted fruit juice and work your way slowly up from there.

-Remember that you are suffering for a greater cause and the pain will be converted to love, hope, and good will toward others. ?Do not fast with anger or negative emotions as the result will be negative. ?This means a hostile hunger strike is much less effective than a purely nonviolent fast. ?Choose to be nonviolent toward the heart of others, like Gandhi was. ?Always remember the greater cause for which you are risking your life and keep it at the front of your mind.

-Be completely honest about your fast.

-In a prolonged fast, after the first few days you can take the option of loosening up and digesting compacted material in your intestines by drinking a lot of water.

-I am not liable for your death or injury by giving you this information. ?;)

Just my opinion!

Quote from: technigirl on August 16, 2005, 10:33 PM NHFT
It looks good.?

I hope that the court will allow the information in and we don't have to post it :)

Thanks.? I hope so too.

If they don't allow the evidence and subsequently convict him, I've been told that even more people may be fasting.

Anyways, I'm going to sleep now.  See you tomorrow morning!  :) :)

Quote from: GT on August 16, 2005, 10:00 PM NHFT

NH Constitution:

[Art.] 12. [Protection and Taxation Reciprocal.] Every member of the community has a right to be protected by it, in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property; he is therefore bound to contribute his share in the expense of such protection, and to yield his personal service when necessary. But no part of a man's property shall be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. Nor are the inhabitants of this state controllable by any other laws than those to which they, or their representative body, have given their consent.

Wow.  What an awesome article.  It validates what http://adventuresinlegalland.com says.  Stop consenting to bad laws!

It's 90 minutes until the trial.  Cross your fingers for Salty.   :o

Quote from: technigirl on August 16, 2005, 10:05 PM NHFT
That's terrible! ?>:( ?Has the Town indicated specifically what the public use will be for the property?

The Town of Newmarket is trying to steal this person's land and business to build a parking garage.   ::)  :(

Thanks to Anne's hard work and coutroom composure, Robert Saulnier is a free man tonight. Everyone is eating, thank goodness.

Cathleen

WoooHOOOOH!

By "free man", does that mean acquitted, or convicted but received no jail? C'mon, we know everyone is celebrating, but give us some scoop!

Good work, Anne. And congratultions, Salty!

Kevin

$1000 fine. $900 suspended.

He was found guilty but the judge let him off with a slap on the wrist (a $100 fine). ?This is probably due to Anne's composure. ?Justice Coughlin personally complemented Anne on the great job she did of defending her father! ?:) :)

I'll let her start off telling the story. ?:)

Oh, and to hear that Anne did a realy great job, doesn't quite capture what she did. ?You realy had to see her in action! ?VERY, VERY IMPRESIVE.

Congratulations Anne & Salty!

BTW, I think that both of the prosecuters aslo complimented Anne.

Quote from: John on August 17, 2005, 03:11 PM NHFT
BTW, I think that both of the prosecuters aslo complimented Anne.

Yes, they did.

Okay I'll let Anne tell the story about the trial today, but here's some more info about what happened afterward.

The Union Leader reporter left.  Londonderry Times reporter John Robinson stayed and talked with us for an hour in order to gain a complete understanding of the facts and our arguments.  There was a lot of back and forth between us, and some of it was not pretty, but we agreed on a few points.

We all agreed that the Town, under the old Town Manager, illegally refused Bob's partial property tax payments.

Even the new Town manager was quoted by the Londonderry Times reporter as saying that refusing partial property tax payments is illegal.  Unfortunately, the old Town Manager cannot be questioned on this because he's dead.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 17, 2005, 05:32 PM NHFTUnfortunately, the old Town Manager cannot be questioned on this because he's dead.

the only good kind of bureaucrat >:D

Thank you, everyone, for the kind words and for taking the time to come out to the Court House today! ?:)

It went somewhat better than expected after Monday, even though the final finding was guilty. ?Here?s the long-winded play-by-play: ?

In November 2003 Dad pleaded nolo to a criminal trespassing charge for going onto the property. ?The judge was obligated to take judicial notice of this previous case (also heard in Derry District Court). ?Because of the fact that Dad did not contest the original trespassing it was therefore equivalent to admitting that he did not own the property at the time. ?Thus, at the beginning of the trial, Judge Coughlin indicated that we would not be able to bring up any ownership evidence that occurred before November of 2003 (which, I suppose does make sense).

Our last hope with allowing questions of ownership was by mentioning a Supreme Court ruling in December of 2004 that stated that the Town was neither a holder nor a qualifying holder in a case regarding the property. ?The Judge called a recess so that he could review the rulings and ultimately found that it the sequence of events occurred prior to November 2004 and could not be brought up as a defense here. ?That meant no talk regarding partial payments, constructive notice, or tax deeding.

So, Plan B (or maybe Plan C at that point) was to just get past the criminal trespassing charge. ?I called Dad as a witness and showed him a picture of the property prior to November 2004. ?This picture shows the house on the property with a chain in front and a big no trespassing sign. ?I asked if that was the state of the property when he pleaded nolo to entering on the property last November. ? I then showed another picture that shows the present state of the property, with the house removed and no signs or barriers in sight. ?

The court order that stated he was not allowed on the property from the first criminal trespassing charge expired in November of 2004, and no other notice was sent to him indicating that he was not allowed on the property. ?No signs were on the property to indicate that it was off limits to the public. ?No structure currently exists on the property. ?So, even if he were not the true owner of the property (as was his state of mind when he entered onto it), he was still a citizen exercising his first amendment right on public property just like anybody else. ?

The Town Prosecutor, Kevin Coyle, asked if Dad thought that all public property was open to the public (Police Stations, Town Halls, Fire Stations, etc.). ?When Dad said, ?Well, yeah?? he asked, ?Even if the building is closed?? ?Dad answered, ?No, of course not, that?s a completely different story.? ?He then reiterated that there was no structure to enter on the property (it is now just an empty lot).

The Town Manager, Dave Caron, was re-called to the stand and he admitted that the Town of Londonderry was a local government, put in place to serve the public (?among other things?), and that land owned by Town would thus be public property. ?He also stated on re-direct that is was mandatory to get a permit to use public land like the Town Common. ?

John Robinson from the Londonderry Times who stayed to talk to us aptly pointed out later that many a Frisbee game occurs sans permit without backlash from the Town? ;)

I fumbled a bit through the closing statement and tried to get the point across that state of mind is crucial in proving a criminal trespassing charge and that Dad ?knew? in his mind at the time that he owned the property and felt he had every right in the world to be there. ?If not, then the land was still owned by an entity that exists solely to serve the public and he should be able to exercise his first amendment right on public property.

Judge Coughlin ultimately found that Dad went onto the property knowing that he had no right to do so.

I'm grateful that Judge Coughlin was lenient in allowing me a multitude of procedural errors and that the Town Prosecutor was reasonable on the sentence request. ?They asked for $1,000 with $800 of it suspended for 2 years and the judge granted $1,000 with $900 of it suspended for 2 years.

Quote from: russellkanning on August 17, 2005, 06:38 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 17, 2005, 05:32 PM NHFTUnfortunately, the old Town Manager cannot be questioned on this because he's dead.

the only good kind of bureaucrat >:D

Russell, that is a very violent comment.  Even if you were kidding, that's a terrible joke in my opinion.   :(

Quote from: technigirl on August 17, 2005, 06:58 PM NHFT
Thank you, everyone, for the kind words and for taking the time to come out to the Court House today! ?:)

You're welcome!  Thanks for having us.  :)  I only wish I could have done more to help.

This is not over yet.  I'm sure a lawsuit is around the corner, depending on what Salty wants to do.  His desire to refuse to compromise is quite understandable.

Hmmm... should we do a new press release about today's result?  Or should we wait until he sues the Town?

Girl. ?You did not fumble!
You made the issues very, very clear.

I'm sure your Mom and Dad are as-proud-as-can-be with what you did today.
You, also, should stand very proud tonight!

I am so happy to see a young person with such fortitude to stand calm-and-composed through this injustice.
YOU ROCK! ?(But, they could not rock you.)

(Hey, and You even kept a smile on throughout most of this - and that is more important than you may know.) ? :-* ?:-*

technigirl, Your Dad said somthing about the light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnle looking like a freight-train? . . .

Well, it seems to me that you-all put the brakes on that, and the freight-train was brought to a halt.



If Salty desides to move that train back a bit, you can be SURE that some of us will be there to help push. (It is not going to be easy to push this beast back - but it aint gonna move back on it's own.)

I sure hope that you-all are resting very well tonight.  You-all quite deserve it!

i can be back up press contact if need be and list my usual number if you like.  great job on all this guys!  sorry i couldn't make it on mon.

Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 17, 2005, 09:43 PM NHFT
i!? sorry i couldn't make it on mon.

Dave!   read excerpts of a concert review below.
Lloyd
_____________

REVIEWS
`Warped' Thrives: Good Music, Low Price

August 17, 2005

By SHERYL HUNTER, SPECIAL TO THE COURANT
Massive traffic jams and fields of ankle-deep mud did little to dull the enthusiasm of an estimated 20,000 kids who packed the Three County Fairgrounds in Northampton, Mass., Monday to enjoy the traveling punk-rock circus known as the Vans Warped Tour.
_____________

Inside the venue wasn't the only place where it was tough to get around. Many concertgoers missed the early sets by bands such as MxPx as traffic was backed up 10 miles in both directions on I-91.
______________
Traffic jams on the highway and in town remained throughout the day and led to the closing of three northbound exits.

From me to Londonderry Times, sent around 8/11

--

Dear folks at the Times:

Thanks for your July 28 article regarding our small protest in support of Robert
"Salty" Saulnier on July 21st.  I appreciated John Roberts' reasonably
accurate snapshot of the situation at the beginning of the little demonstration,
but here is some additional detail.

Our total turnout was actually six; two more NHfree.com folks showed up to support
Salty after John had to go into the meeting.   Three out of the six were from Londonderry.

Though we had questions and concerns about both sides of this conflict, the central
question remains:  Is it *ever* right for any town to evict someone from their land
for failing to pay taxes?   When most tax dollars go not toward protecting us but
toward inefficient government schooling?   

I think most of us came away feeling more sympathetic with Salty than we were before,
and if I'm able I will certainly be at his trial August 15 to support him in whatever
minor way I'm able.   As a rule, when you take a man's property and then try to
put him in jail for "trespassing" on it, something is not right.

I'm not absolutely certain on this, but I believe it's not a two year probation for any offense, but just a two year suspension of the fine as long as he doesn't go back on 22 Grenier Field Rd.? That was my understanding.?

The first nolo pleading was a one year probation for any offense at all.?

well if they drag him in for anything else .... we can go crazy over that 8)

Quote from: technigirl on August 18, 2005, 10:20 AM NHFT
I'm not absolutely certain on this, but I believe it's not a two year probation for any offense, but just a two year suspension of the fine as long as he doesn't go back on 22 Grenier Field Rd.? That was my understanding.?

The first nolo pleading was a one year probation for any offense at all.?

This is as I understood it.  I did not hear anything about probation.

If there is anything in writing about probation, I don't think it would be the same sentence which the judge issued in open court.

The court officer did come out into the hallway (afterwards) to inform Mr. Saulnier that the judge hadn't made one point clear: being sentenced to pay $100 meens that Mr. Saulnier would actualy be paying (I think he said) $120.
Government math  . . . ?

Today's Derry/Londonderry edition of the Union Leader says, "Coughlin sentenced Saulnier to a $1,000 fine, with $900 suspended as long as he doesn't set foot on the property for two years."

Quote from: John on August 18, 2005, 01:27 PM NHFT
The court officer did come out into the hallway (afterwards) to inform Mr. Saulnier that the judge hadn't made one point clear: being sentenced to pay $100 means that Mr. Saulnier would actualy be paying (I think he said) $120.
Government math? . . . ?

Yep, on the receipt it was listed as "Tax" and the total fine was $120.

Didn't he think the ordeal was taxing enough on Salty?   ???

Quote from: russellkanning on August 18, 2005, 12:36 PM NHFT
well if they drag him in for anything else .... we can go crazy over that 8)

Exactly.   ;)

This is on the front page now.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 18, 2005, 04:11 PM NHFT
This is on the front page now.

thank you

... we are starting to get more contributors, which is 8)

Quote from: John on August 18, 2005, 01:40 PM NHFT
Today's Derry/Londonderry edition of the Union Leader says, "Coughlin sentenced Saulnier to a $1,000 fine, with $900 suspended as long as he doesn't set foot on the property for two years."

But isn't it his property?

Tracy

THANK YOU, Cathleen and John, for coming to support Salty and his family on Wednesday.  This means a lot to me and I'm sure to them as well.

And though we lost this one, we are learning everything we can to continue to help this family, and we'll keep watching for more families to help.  Whenever someone is victimized by the government, we will be there.  This should lead to countless allies in our journey.  :)

Here's another soon-to-be victim of the government.  We should keep an eye on this one:

Shop's flaws left to linger 
Violations noted, but unenforced 
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050819/REPOSITORY/508190307/1031

After Rowe called, Woodward, the city planner, wrote an e-mail to Rice, Walker and others: "Bottom line, (AAMCO) should not be working and certainly should not be open for business if indeed they are."

On a more serious note, with all of this talk about fasting, it brings up the issue of death.

I'm constantly reminded of the inevitability of death when working for liberty through self-suffering.  I live only for liberty, love, honesty, nonviolence, and volunteerism, and for no other reason.  Death is an old familiar feeling to me, and I look forward to being with my sister who committed suicide 8 years ago.  I want to use every ounce of my being to bring this terrible system to a complete hault, even if it means my death right here and now.

Maybe this is just melodramatic, and maybe it's not that hard to win liberty.  But I really don't see how it could be easy, or the world never would have come to be this way.

Quote from: wholetthedogin? on August 19, 2005, 08:11 PM NHFT
Dude, find yourself a good dawg.? Your wife will thank you.? Dey are warm, cuddly, loyal and would defend yu til der death.

Two dogs are good enough!  I don't need another dog.

Or is this just some cryptic language I don't understand?

Mike....um....you're like talking to a dog, you know?

Quote from: katdillon on August 20, 2005, 07:18 PM NHFT
Mike....um....you're like talking to a dog, you know?

woof, woof  ;)

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 19, 2005, 03:34 PM NHFT
On a more serious note, with all of this talk about fasting, it brings up the issue of death.

I'm constantly reminded of the inevitability of death when working for liberty through self-suffering.? I live only for liberty, love, honesty, nonviolence, and volunteerism, and for no other reason.? Death is an old familiar feeling to me, and I look forward to being with my sister who committed suicide 8 years ago.? I want to use every ounce of my being to bring this terrible system to a complete hault, even if it means my death right here and now.

Maybe this is just melodramatic, and maybe it's not that hard to win liberty.? But I really don't see how it could be easy, or the world never would have come to be this way.

OK Mike, this is almost too much to try and respond to while I'm running on almost nothing but several breif (15 min. or so) "power naps" (mostly in my car) (Oh, and food) during that past 30 hours . . . (And this is without the assistance of drugs by the way.)
I chose to keep going because being with Liberty-oriented freinds today was more important to me than to earn 12 hours pay - wich I would be doing right now, had I slept.

From the time I left work at about 5:00 AM (after about 13 hours there) 'till now, I have been doing things which one of my brothers would be doing if he was still with us.

Because you guys & gals were going to be in Summersworth at noon, I went directly from work to the seacoast. ?I though I would get pictures of the sunrise today. ?The sun cracked a small smile on the horizon at Hampton Beach - and only for less than a minute - hours after I had taken my first photos of the day - photos of a young man (in a clowd of steam) cleaning the sidewalk in front of his place of employment.

Hours later, I met a man playing his guitar on the wall . . .and we talked for quite some time . . . we talked about what Freedom realy meens . . . And, he says he will say hello here at NHfree.com . . . I think he actualy will.

Some folks would say that we had very "grey skys" today.
I, once again, saw the Silver Skys of New Hampshire!

As I said in Somersworth today, what we are doing sometimes has VERY little ripples.

I thought I was going right home when I left Somersworth, but then (after miles of Seacoast traffic) I felt like returning to Hampton Beach.

Under the SILVER SKYS of NEW HAMPSHIRE, folks were still having fun on the beach . . . and then, the sun came out breifly again for those who held out hope!

KEEP HOPE ALIVE!

Mike thanks so much for everything you have been doing to help Salty & co. ; it's fun to see how your credibility is soaring based on your readiness to take action but your refusal to compromise your ideals. 

Here's an idea...if you do civil dis again (or even if you just fast), you could shave your head, wear round spectacles and wear a loincloth!  That would triple the news coverage , it would be so visual!  I don't think any of the rest of us have the clout to do this but you could pull it off.   

I've got a good idea....Dada can shave his head for the cause....oh, wait....

Quote from: katdillon on August 21, 2005, 04:40 PM NHFT
I've got a good idea....Dada can shave his head for the cause....oh, wait....

he could go with the outfit though

We could start a Buy-Dada-a-Diaper Fund.

Mike Fisher considered it a loss.
It sure is better than jail time. The big problem has already happened they took his house :o

Something tells me sung is bitter.  But why? ???

Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 21, 2005, 03:53 PM NHFT
Mike thanks so much for everything you have been doing to help Salty & co. ; it's fun to see how your credibility is soaring based on your readiness to take action but your refusal to compromise your ideals.?

Here's an idea...if you do civil dis again (or even if you just fast), you could shave your head, wear round spectacles and wear a loincloth!? That would triple the news coverage , it would be so visual!? I don't think any of the rest of us have the clout to do this but you could pull it off.? ?

ROFLMAO!!!

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 19, 2005, 02:57 PM NHFTAnd though we lost this one...

Quote from: sung on August 24, 2005, 10:16 AM NHFT
You people make me sick. You think paying "only" $100 and "suspending" everything else is a victory? What sorry, sorry people.

Hey dude who said "Victory"?  Have you ever faced a local tyrany and come out better than you thought you might?  Have you ever stood up and taken the fight to them?
Have you ever seen a young person (with no legal training, BTW) stand up and defend her dad?

I hope you're not too sick over this.  Sometimes it is nessessary to first stop the bleeding before moving forward.

We learn by doing, we help where we can, we stand with our friends.  We/I look foward to your expert wisdom.  We/I look forward to some of your positive input!
Please let us all know now we can do things better.

I have an idea about how I would have done things - but hey, you know what, I was not the one facing these jerks.  I wasn't the one facing jail-time!  I wasn't the one who had to stand up in court and take action.  Hey, to put it plainly, it wasn't my ass on the line!

Dude, when you are ready to take action let us know.  That's what we are about here - action.
Wanna debate?  Some of us are tired of the debating.  That's why we are hitting the ground . . . see you on the street?

HAVE A FREE DAY!

QuoteConstitutionality of Takings by Municipal Tax Deeds
By: Andrea L. Sennott, Esq.

As you may be aware, there have been recent changes in the law regarding a municipality's ability to take land by tax deed. This opinion is issued in light of the Supreme Court's recent decision in Thomas Tool Services, Inc. v. Town of Croydon. I have attached a copy of that decision for your reference. You will note that the Croydon case pertains to a property that was taken by the Town of Croydon in 1992, by tax deed, pursuant to RSA 80:76m the alternative tax lien procedure. The Court was faxed with the narrow issues of whether or not the alternative tax lien procedure violated the takings clause of the New Hampshire Constitution. The "Takings clause" provides that "no part of a man's property shall be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his consent, or that of the representative body of the people". This provision further requires just compensation in the event of a taking.

In the Croydon case, the property owner had purchased property in 1983 for approximately $65,000.00. In 1995, the Town took the property of $370.26 of unpaid taxes. Although the exact value of the property at the time of the tax deed is unknown, it is clear that the property was worth substantially more than the amount of the outstanding taxes. The plaintiff challenged the alternative tax lien procedure on the grounds that the tax deed was a taking, and the owner was not justly compensated. The Court found as follows:
Assuming that the property is worth substantially more that the $370.26 that the defendant paid for it, the defendant has realized an enormous surplus. While we do not condone delinquent taxpayers, the amount of surplus the defendant realized results in an absurdly harsh penalty. We therefore hold that the statutory alternative tax procedure is unconstitutional.

Although the Court did find the alternative tax lien procedure of RSA 80:58-87 to be unconstitutional, this may not prevent a municipality from taking property by tax deed pursuant to the current statutes. AS you know, in 1998, the tax deeding procedure was amended by the New Hampshire Legislature, with the addition of RSA 80:88. NH RSA 80:88 limits the amount of money a municipality may recover as proceeds from the sale of a property that was acquired by tax deed. A municipality may only retain the back taxes, interest, costs, and a fifteen (15%) percent penalty. All excess proceeds shall be paid to the Superior Court by way of an interpleader action. At this point, all other lien holders and the former owner have the opportunity to recover the funds as found appropriate by the Court.

In addition to the provisions pertaining to excess proceeds detailed above, the Legislature added Section 80:89 which provides that prior to selling a property acquired by tax deed, the former owner must receive a notice of the impending sale and must be given the opportunity to repurchase the property.

If a municipality were to take property by tax deed and proceed to sell the property, we do not believe the taking would be considered unconstitutional, under the Croydon case, so long as the municipality followed the procedures laid out in RSA 80:89 and 80:90. However, if a municipality takes the property and intends to retain it, this may be considered an unconstitutional taking, since the Town would have received an enormous surplus, similar to Croydon.

In order to alleviate this problem, I recommend that a municipality have an appraisal done at the time of any taking. The municipality should then send a notice to the property owner, indicating that the municipality will reimburse the appraised value of the property, less the outstanding taxes, interest, costs, fifteen percent (15%) statutory penalty, and satisfaction of any mortgages or liens on the property. The municipality should also inform the owner that so long as he does not accept the funds offered by the municipality, RSA? 80:89 allows a former owner up to three years to repurchase the property.

If this procedure is followed, it is my opinion that the taking would not be considered unconstitutional under the Croydon decision.

www.dtclawyers.com/Articles/Constitutionality.pdf (http://www.dtclawyers.com/Articles/Constitutionality.pdf)

This may explain why the town doesn't want it on the record that the property is being taken for public use.

But it does depend on property title status.? I'm bothered that there is no clear statement of what the property's status was in regard to liens during the 90s.? An escrow account is mentioned with multiple attempts to pay taxes from the escrow account, and something about a bank, so that suggests that a bank or mortgage lender had a lien on the property.? Has that lien been cleared?? By whom with what money?? What was the property assessed at by the town?? (and what was the adjustment to market at that time)? What was the assessed value of the property at the time of eviction?

I recall a mention of the town asking for quit claim to be signed.? That suggests they were offering to pay the balance of the property tax?

Seems to me that one thing needed is to understand what has been recorded for the property in the past 15 years at least and probably all the way back to the original title transfer.? If there was a bank mortgage that was sold and repackaged, etc., the trail of liens might be difficult to sort out in terms of finding out who held the note.

For the past two years or so, I've gotten fed up with the mostly junk mail, phone calls, and I've been short of cash and income to itemize and deduct the property tax payment, so I'm behind and a lien has been placed on my property.? I haven't exactly been checking on things to make sure I know exactly my risk exposure, but I do have an idea where I stand and I'm not going to say "the tyranical state took my property" if I don't arrange something before the state prescribed grace period is up.? (You can say I coulda/shoulda/woulda done something to avoid being in hock to the state, but I haven't/didn't.)

Quote from: sung on August 26, 2005, 08:02 PM NHFT

Quote from: John on August 25, 2005, 11:12 PM NHFT
Dude, when you are ready to take action let us know.? That's what we are about here - action.
Wanna debate?? Some of us are tired of the debating.? That's why we are hitting the ground . . . see you on the street?

Sure, I'd love to help and all that. But I've had several FSP members threaten me with various things for attempting to implement my "extreme" libertarian ideas in a real life situation.

:shrug:

What did they do, threaten to put it on your permenet record?

Quote from: sung on August 26, 2005, 08:02 PM NHFT

Quote from: John on August 25, 2005, 11:12 PM NHFT
Dude, when you are ready to take action let us know.? That's what we are about here - action.
Wanna debate?? Some of us are tired of the debating.? That's why we are hitting the ground . . . see you on the street?

Sure, I'd love to help and all that. But I've had several FSP members threaten me with various things for attempting to implement my "extreme" libertarian ideas in a real life situation.

:shrug:

Oh, it must be Zack Bass.

sung,
The FSP has nothing to do with you - nor me - once we are here. ?Nor should they!

Are you here? ?
What "extreem" positions do you take?
I will not nessesarily agree with you, but we are open and honest here on the "underground".
We have no secrets.
State your case.

Since we are getting toward "debate" and away from the topic of this tread, let's start a new thread for you. ?Let's call it "sung's solutions."

Quote from: sung on August 26, 2005, 08:02 PM NHFTSure, I'd love to help and all that. But I've had several FSP members threaten me with various things for attempting to implement my "extreme" libertarian ideas in a real life situation.

what are you trying to do? .....who is threatening? what?
maybe just don't listen to them

Quote from: russellkanning on August 27, 2005, 08:09 AM NHFT

Quote from: sung on August 26, 2005, 08:02 PM NHFTSure, I'd love to help and all that. But I've had several FSP members threaten me with various things for attempting to implement my "extreme" libertarian ideas in a real life situation.

what are you trying to do? .....who is threatening? what?
maybe just don't listen to them

Maybe Russell is the most practicle man among us - - -  "maybe just don't listen to them"

Here's an idea for a publicity stunt that could help Salty or others like him.

We could hold a "Counter-Trial" for Salty.  We would make it a real event, consider all evidence, and come to real conclusions without the State's dirty courtroom tricks getting in the way.  We could even invite Salty's family and other witnesses.  We would accept all photographic evidence, receipts, and laws to determine the true ownership of the property.

This idea comes from the counter-trial publicity stunt that was used successfully in Germany by the Communists to attack the policies of the Nazis.   ::)

Wikipedia quote:

"Counter-trial" Organized by the German Communist Party

During the summer of 1933, a counter-trial was organized in London by a group of lawyers, democrats and other anti-Nazi propagandists under the aegis of German Communist ?migr?s. The Chairman of the "Counter-trial" was the Labour politician Sir Stafford Cripps, but the chief organizer behind the "counter-trial" was KPD's propaganda chief Willi M?nzenberg. The counter-trial lasted one week and ended with the conclusion the defendants were innocent, and the true initiators of the fire are found amid the leading NSDAP elite. G?ring was found guilty at the counter-trial. The counter-trial served as a workshop during which all possible scenarios were tested and all speeches of the defendants were prepared. The "Counter-trial" was an enormously successful publicity stunt for the German Communists.

What about a non-governmental trial of some sitting government official?  If so, who would be a good candidate?  I favor Lynch since he would not benefit from free publicity like a more obsure politician would.   

However I definitely don't have the patience to make something like this happen myself. 

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 06, 2005, 11:54 PM NHFT
This idea comes from the counter-trial publicity stunt that was used successfully in Germany by the Communists to attack the policies of the Nazis.   ::)

Wikipedia quote:
"Counter-trial" Organized by the German Communist Party
  During the summer of 1933... G?ring was found guilty at the counter-trial. The counter-trial served as a workshop during which all possible scenarios were tested and all speeches of the defendants were prepared. The "Counter-trial" was an enormously successful publicity stunt for the German Communists.

Interesting theory.  And as a result of this "publicity stunt that was used successfully in Germany", how did the German Communists fare relative to the German Nazis during the next decade or so?

Quote from: zackbass on September 12, 2005, 12:58 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 06, 2005, 11:54 PM NHFT
This idea comes from the counter-trial publicity stunt that was used successfully in Germany by the Communists to attack the policies of the Nazis.   ::)

Wikipedia quote:
"Counter-trial" Organized by the German Communist Party
  During the summer of 1933... G?ring was found guilty at the counter-trial. The counter-trial served as a workshop during which all possible scenarios were tested and all speeches of the defendants were prepared. The "Counter-trial" was an enormously successful publicity stunt for the German Communists.

Interesting theory.  And as a result of this "publicity stunt that was used successfully in Germany", how did the German Communists fare relative to the German Nazis during the next decade or so?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany

Quote
Soon after the appointment of Hitler as Chancellor, the Reichstag was set on fire. The Nazis publicly blamed the fire on Communist agitators (though many historians believe that the Nazis themselves set the fire). They used the fire as a pretext to introduce laws enabling suppression of political parties. The Enabling Act, which legally gave Hitler dictatorial control of Germany, was passed by a Reichstag session held after the Communist deputies had been arrested and jailed.

The KPD was brutally suppressed by the Nazis ? known Communists were sent to concentration camps and systematically killed during the Holocaust. Many German Communists ended up dead (Ernst Th?lmann, Werner Seelenbinder), in exile (Walter Ulbricht), or were imprisoned (Erich Honecker).

Seems like a good model to follow.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 17, 2005, 08:41 PM NHFT

Quote from: russellkanning on August 17, 2005, 06:38 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 17, 2005, 05:32 PM NHFTUnfortunately, the old Town Manager cannot be questioned on this because he's dead.

the only good kind of bureaucrat >:D

Russell, that is a very violent comment.  Even if you were kidding, that's a terrible joke in my opinion.   :(

The only good bureaucrat is a dead bureaucrat.  No joke.
For those of you who are patient, that is not a violent comment.

Quote

In a mature society, "civil servant" is semantically equal to "civil master."   --  Lazarus Long
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

A bureaucrat who, simply, stops being a bureaucrat, left alive, is acceptable.

When you guys talk about bureaucrats, do you only mean government bureaucrats?

I think the FSP now has more bureaucracy than FEMA.
(http://www.freestateproject.org/about/orgchart.png)

That sure is a lot of bureaucrats for a bus.

you don't even get points for an original post .... Kat already posted that chart .....

although it is scary ...... how can it compare to fema the fsp is all volunteer and what does fema spend? billions? :o

where on the chart do they have fsp trolls? they must have a whole division :P

Quote from: president on September 12, 2005, 02:30 PM NHFT

When you guys talk about bureaucrats, do you only mean government bureaucrats?

Natcherly.  Government is Force.

Quote from: russellkanning on September 12, 2005, 02:56 PM NHFT
where on the chart do they have fsp trolls? they must have a whole division :P

Indeed.

Quote from: russellkanning on September 12, 2005, 02:56 PM NHFT
where on the chart do they have fsp trolls? they must have a whole division

Project Tracking. Under the leadershit of Jason P. Sorens  ;)

Why didn't they put Seth in charge of trolls?  He handles them well.

Quote from: katdillon on September 12, 2005, 04:27 PM NHFT
Why didn't they put Seth in charge of trolls?  He handles them well.

He has too much secret stuff on his plate.

LOL!

Quote from: president on September 12, 2005, 01:18 PM NHFT

Quote from: zackbass on September 12, 2005, 12:58 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 06, 2005, 11:54 PM NHFT
This idea comes from the counter-trial publicity stunt that was used successfully in Germany by the Communists to attack the policies of the Nazis.? ?::)

Wikipedia quote:
"Counter-trial" Organized by the German Communist Party
? During the summer of 1933... G?ring was found guilty at the counter-trial. The counter-trial served as a workshop during which all possible scenarios were tested and all speeches of the defendants were prepared. The "Counter-trial" was an enormously successful publicity stunt for the German Communists.

Interesting theory.? And as a result of this "publicity stunt that was used successfully in Germany", how did the German Communists fare relative to the German Nazis during the next decade or so?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany

Quote
Soon after the appointment of Hitler as Chancellor, the Reichstag was set on fire. The Nazis publicly blamed the fire on Communist agitators (though many historians believe that the Nazis themselves set the fire). They used the fire as a pretext to introduce laws enabling suppression of political parties. The Enabling Act, which legally gave Hitler dictatorial control of Germany, was passed by a Reichstag session held after the Communist deputies had been arrested and jailed.

The KPD was brutally suppressed by the Nazis ? known Communists were sent to concentration camps and systematically killed during the Holocaust. Many German Communists ended up dead (Ernst Th?lmann, Werner Seelenbinder), in exile (Walter Ulbricht), or were imprisoned (Erich Honecker).

Seems like a good model to follow.

The counter-trial was BEFORE Hitler became dictator of Germany.? As soon as that happened, everyone should have picked up their guns and ammo and marched down main street in open defiance of him.

There is great potential value in a counter-trial.? Can you imagine the positive publicity?

Ignore that it was done by communists.? What is wrong with a counter-trial as a publicity stunt?

I think March 23, 1933(Hitler Becomes Dictator of Germany) came before the summer of 1933  ::)

Quote from: russellkanning on September 12, 2005, 02:55 PM NHFT
although it is scary ...... how can it compare to fema the fsp is all volunteer and what does fema spend? billions?

When I use the term "bureaucrat" I don't just mean ones from government.

How can it compare?
The FSP  can't get anything done just like FEMA can't get anything done.
To many layers and rules.
Bureaucracy doesn't work.

Have you looked at that org chart?
The VP doesn't do anything?
Amanda Reports to herself.
It even has a dotted line to the FSP Board.

I like when the FSP drew the org chart like this, when the VP had a job:
(http://www4.freestateproject.org/about/multimedia/images/orgchart-big.gif)

Hey, Kat, how long where you on the FSP Board?

Quote from: president on September 12, 2005, 04:52 PM NHFT
I think March 23, 1933(Hitler Becomes Dictator of Germany) came before the summer of 1933? ::)

The Enabling Act was passed in 1934.  That is what made the Chancellor a dictator.  Then Hindenburg died on August 2, 1933 and that made Hitler the Fuhrer.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 12, 2005, 09:12 PM NHFT

Quote from: president on September 12, 2005, 04:52 PM NHFT
I think March 23, 1933(Hitler Becomes Dictator of Germany) came before the summer of 1933  ::)

The Enabling Act was passed in 1934.  That is what made the Chancellor a dictator.

Do you think I just made the March 23, 1933 date up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act

Quote from: president on September 12, 2005, 10:54 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 12, 2005, 09:12 PM NHFT

Quote from: president on September 12, 2005, 04:52 PM NHFT
I think March 23, 1933(Hitler Becomes Dictator of Germany) came before the summer of 1933? ::)

The Enabling Act was passed in 1934.? That is what made the Chancellor a dictator.

Do you think I just made the March 23, 1933 date up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act

Hmm... my source had the wrong year on it.  As a matter of fact, even the Wiki entry on Nazi Germany quotes the wrong year for the Enabling Act.  In any case, Hitler was made Fuhrer on August 2, 1933.

And what is it that trolls do?  ::)

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 12, 2005, 11:15 PM NHFT

the Wiki entry on Nazi Germany quotes the wrong year for the Enabling Act.

Fixed.  Gee, that was easy... almost too easy... surprising there aren't more errors.

Quote from: president on September 12, 2005, 09:05 PM NHFT

Too many layers and rules.
Bureaucracy doesn't work.

Does too.  You just try subdividing your Private Property in Grafton into 1/4-acre lots and see how far you get.

Bureaucracy and internal poltics is why the LP is little more than a plaything.

I was on the board for a couple months.

Let's hold a counter-trial for Robert Saulnier.   :)

John also sent photos from Salty's day at Derry District Court:

http://www.soulawakenings.com/underground/tikiwiki/tiki-browse_gallery.php?galleryId=36

Quote from: freedominnh on December 08, 2005, 07:27 AM NHFT
All pictures appear to be vicinity of Derry Courthouse.? Not a Londonderry shot except resident Robert Saulnier.

The last few photos were in downtown Londonderry, I believe.

Quote from: freedominnh on December 08, 2005, 07:27 AM NHFT
All pictures appear to be vicinity of Derry Courthouse.? Not a Londonderry shot except resident Robert Saulnier.

The first 7 pics are at DDC . . . The reporter at DDC is (me thinks) from Londonderry.

The others are technigirl's photos by Londonderry Town Hall.

Quote from: John on December 09, 2005, 08:05 AM NHFT

Quote from: freedominnh on December 08, 2005, 07:27 AM NHFT
All pictures appear to be vicinity of Derry Courthouse.? Not a Londonderry shot except resident Robert Saulnier.

The first 7 pics are at DDC . . . The reporter at DDC is (me thinks) from Londonderry.

The others are technigirl's photos by Londonderry Town Hall.

The Reporter is John Robinson from the Londonderry Times. FYI Robinson is also running for State Rep his is a big supporter of state funded public education. He esitmates the state should pay approx. 8,000 per student.