Dave Ridley mentioned this new currency called "Shire Silver" that people in New Hampshire are going to make, since the Feds raided the Liberty Dollar and took everything away from them.
Anyway, now since we've established that USC Title blah blah blah Section blah blah blah doesn't prohibit alternate curriencies, I want some. And even though I don't live in New Hampshire, I want some anyway. Just make sure you choose a good design, not an ugly design.
So I guess my question is when is the "Shire Silver" going to come out, and when can I get some?
(http://shiresilver.org/sites/shiresilver.org/files/images/sslayout.GIF)
Production has been set back due to unforeseen circumstances, but PM me your real world name, location, and quantity you want, and I'll put you on the preorder list.
Quote from: Luke S on April 07, 2008, 04:24 PM NHFT
So I guess my question is when is the "Shire Silver" going to come out, and when can I get some?
My understanding was that it is/was supposed to be ready in time for PorcFest. I think we're still on track, although I gotta get off my butt and do more work on it.
What's your biggest problem, Ron?
Maybe we can help.
Quote from: ReverendRyan on April 07, 2008, 05:27 PM NHFT
(http://shiresilver.org/sites/shiresilver.org/files/images/sslayout.GIF)
Production has been set back due to unforeseen circumstances, but PM me your real world name, location, and quantity you want, and I'll put you on the preorder list.
Hang on here. These don't look like coins. These look like bars. So is Shire Silver going to be in the form of bars?
Quote from: Luke S on April 08, 2008, 12:03 PM NHFT
Hang on here. These don't look like coins. These look like bars. So is Shire Silver going to be in the form of bars?
Define "coin" and "bar"
i have seen a close replica of the flower/bullet icon with another company before... It is very similar to some tv commercial ad for a pharmaceutical drug.
Quote from: ReverendRyan on April 08, 2008, 12:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: Luke S on April 08, 2008, 12:03 PM NHFT
Hang on here. These don't look like coins. These look like bars. So is Shire Silver going to be in the form of bars?
Define "coin" and "bar"
Well not coin, I meant
circular medallion. By "bar", I meant a square or rectangular shaped object. What I mean to ask is on the Ridley video, the Shire Silver I saw were circular disks. Now on here, the Shire Silver I'm seeing are rectangular and square objects. So I suppose I'm just kind of surprised that Shire Silver is going to be in the form of bars, rather than coins, which is what I saw on the Ridley video.
Also, the two s's stuck together on Shire Silver looks like the symbol for "section".
What Dave showed were entries and suggestions.
good to know.
Now my next question is: are the folks in charge of this going to keep the main stockpile of Shire Silver hidden so the government can't steal it all like they did with the liberty dollar?
Nope, it's an open source currency. We're just establishing some parameters and running the first pieces as a proof of concept. It's mint-on-demand essentially.
LD screwed up by issuing warehouse certificates. I see no warehouse. But it wouldn't be as much of an issue if LD hadn't made the damn things so close to looking like govt currency in the 1st place. Another reason for the shape decision: it screams THIS IS NOT LEGAL TENDER!
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on April 08, 2008, 11:36 AM NHFT
What's your biggest problem, Ron?
Maybe we can help.
The next step is to find someone to manufacture the dies. We will need dies to cut out the shape from sheets, and dies for stamping the image. Bill put a list of potential manufacturers up on the ShireSilver.org site - I just need to get off my butt and see if one of them will make them.
Once we have the dies, we can start building the example presses. You guys might be very helpful in that regard.
Quote from: Luke S on April 08, 2008, 05:56 PM NHFT
Now my next question is: are the folks in charge of this going to keep the main stockpile of Shire Silver hidden so the government can't steal it all like they did with the liberty dollar?
To follow up on Ryan's response, Shire Silver will be voluntary infrastructure. We are planning to provide marketing materials, designs and dies so you can make your own, a web site where people can find merchants they can spend silver with (and on what terms), and stuff like that.
The main idea that started Shire Silver is that while the FedGoons can shut down a centralized organization, they can't shut down dozens or hundreds of backyard/basement mints that aren't listed anywhere.
So if somebody needs change after a purchase, then what happens? Since the smallest unit of Shire Silver I see on here is 10 oz, which is worth something like $200 in USD, that's a hell of a big amount for the smallest unit.
What are you talking about? There are oz units.
Quote from: Luke S on April 09, 2008, 12:51 PM NHFT
So if somebody needs change after a purchase, then what happens? Since the smallest unit of Shire Silver I see on here is 10 oz, which is worth something like $200 in USD, that's a hell of a big amount for the smallest unit.
The first units produced will be 1 troy ounce (~31.1 gram) and 10 gram (~.32 troy oz).
And you wouldn't "pay" or "purchase" with them, it's a barter form. If, for example, you agree with someone that your 1 oz is worth about $30 and the item or service you want is worth $20, you can trade that ounce for said product or service and a 10 dollar bill.
Of course, this will eventually be a moot point, as if successful, larger and smaller pieces can be produced, and historically 1/8 oz of silver is small enough to handle nearly all day-to-day transactions. Or if the market demands it, 1/4 oz copper can be used as pocket change.
QuoteOr if the market demands it, 1/4 oz copper can be used as pocket change.
There are these things called silver dimes... for that matter, there's still all the silver coins we need. Why make new ones when the coin shops are full of old?
I've been told that bars as opposed to rounds are less preferable because they're more easily tampered with. I'm assuming this is probably more of an issue in the realm of 100 oz bars as opposed to partial 10gm - 5 oz bars. I own no silver at this moment, but REALLY want to start buying small amounts soon. I see that bars are "cheaper" (in a USD/XAU transaction) for similar weights over rounds.
Will Shire Silver have any information for those still thinking in terms of USD (or those thinking in silver but not having done transactions) on how to handle silver? For instance, most stores have those little markers that change color on fake bills. For the liberty minded, we know to measure the weight and know certain branding that's trustworthy, but for someone handling silver for the sole purpose of getting a discount (i.e. I've seen several retailers offer 5% off a purchase price with payment in silver over USD) are there any SS resources to test purity of a round or bar?
While I know this may ALSO be part of the idea, are there (going to be) resources for using non-SS branded silver? For those willing to accept it as payment for private debts, the lack of SS branding may turn people off from accepting generic rounds or bars (Pan am, for isntance) and I can't see how that would be much better than a retailer refusing to accept any form of payment that isn't branded "US Government". The goal is to teach people to understand money, and see silver as money, but there are many people who may be willing to trade that simply can't look past branding.
Quote from: ReverendRyan on April 09, 2008, 01:31 PM NHFT
Quote from: Luke S on April 09, 2008, 12:51 PM NHFT
So if somebody needs change after a purchase, then what happens? Since the smallest unit of Shire Silver I see on here is 10 oz, which is worth something like $200 in USD, that's a hell of a big amount for the smallest unit.
The first units produced will be 1 troy ounce (~31.1 gram) and 10 gram (~.32 troy oz).
And you wouldn't "pay" or "purchase" with them, it's a barter form. If, for example, you agree with someone that your 1 oz is worth about $30 and the item or service you want is worth $20, you can trade that ounce for said product or service and a 10 dollar bill.
Of course, this will eventually be a moot point, as if successful, larger and smaller pieces can be produced, and historically 1/8 oz of silver is small enough to handle nearly all day-to-day transactions. Or if the market demands it, 1/4 oz copper can be used as pocket change.
Yeah, you're right. The smallest unit is 10g, not 10 oz. Sorry I misread.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on April 09, 2008, 01:50 PM NHFT
I've been told that bars as opposed to rounds are less preferable because they're more easily tampered with. I'm assuming this is probably more of an issue in the realm of 100 oz bars as opposed to partial 10gm - 5 oz bars.
These aren't bars in that sense. I guess you could call them rectangular rounds.
Quote
Will Shire Silver have any information for those still thinking in terms of USD (or those thinking in silver but not having done transactions) on how to handle silver?
The website that's being worked on will have both the market value of the metal and the suggested trade value of the piece, and pertinent information.
Quote
For instance, most stores have those little markers that change color on fake bills.
They don't work. It's just an iodine pen. One of the biggest wide-spread scams today.
Quote
For the liberty minded, we know to measure the weight and know certain branding that's trustworthy, but for someone handling silver for the sole purpose of getting a discount (i.e. I've seen several retailers offer 5% off a purchase price with payment in silver over USD) are there any SS resources to test purity of a round or bar?
That would be up to the person accepting it. One of the purposes behind a unique design is to be easily recognizeable and a trusted medium of exchange.
Quote
While I know this may ALSO be part of the idea, are there (going to be) resources for using non-SS branded silver? For those willing to accept it as payment for private debts, the lack of SS branding may turn people off from accepting generic rounds or bars (Pan am, for isntance) and I can't see how that would be much better than a retailer refusing to accept any form of payment that isn't branded "US Government". The goal is to teach people to understand money, and see silver as money, but there are many people who may be willing to trade that simply can't look past branding.
Let the market decide. A more unified design and familiarity is just a means to an end, in my opinion.
Quote from: ReverendRyan on April 09, 2008, 03:01 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kevin Dean on April 09, 2008, 01:50 PM NHFT
For instance, most stores have those little markers that change color on fake bills.
They don't work. It's just an iodine pen. One of the biggest wide-spread scams today.
If you wanna have some fun, and you're patient, spray some of your big bills with a bit of starch. Those pens will identify it as counterfeit.
Quote from: 'dalebert'If you wanna have some fun, and you're patient, spray some of your big bills with a bit of starch. Those pens will identify it as counterfeit.
Makes a TON of sense now. :) I use iodine to test for starch conversion when I'm brewing. Light bulb. :)
Quote from: 'ReverendRyan'These aren't bars in that sense. I guess you could call them rectangular rounds.
So when I hear "bars" I should think "large quantity" and less "shape"? So a 1 ounce "rectangular round" is accepted by you guys as readily as a 1 ounce round... round is. If I can get confirmation on that you guys will have just reduced my premium. :) I'm looking to buy a few ounces in the next few days and the cost above spot is noticeably higher for rounds.
Quote from: 'ReverendRyan'They don't work. It's just an iodine pen. One of the biggest wide-spread scams today.
Okay, so as someone who has no experience handling silver, is the only way to assess the value of silver "on-the-spot" is to accept only from sellers I believe have an acceptable level of trust and only accept brands of silver with a mark/name I trust? That makes sense, really, if there's no practical way to quickly assess the fineness of a piece. The iodine pen thing, plus a few other things, makes me believe that (with as much as can be said of a FRN) the bill I'm being handed isn't counterfeit. I'm now aware that some of those measures are worthless tests (the point is to educate!) and there's ALWAYS some risk in doing business. I'm just wondering as a novice what tools are at my disposal other than "common sense" I suppose. :P
Quote from: 'ReverendRyan'Let the market decide. A more unified design and familiarity is just a means to an end, in my opinion.
I'm all for competition. I suppose I'm essentially asking the opposite - how can we encourage competition. As I see it, the SS brand is designed to be an assurance of quality, to provide a sense of familiarity and a few other things. The goal of all "alternative currency" systems is to get people to think about the money they use. Part of the confusion I initially had over the Liberty Dollar (and part of why I see it as a ripoff, honestly) is the emphasis on "this currency is an alternative" rather than "this piece is silver, which holds value because it's silver. This specific piece is marked in a way to be easily assessed in comparison to the USD, but it's value comes from being silver". I don't see how the idea of educating people about money is being accomplished if you're just trading one brand (the USD) for another (SS) and counting on brand recognition alone to be the alternative.
Fast forward a bit to when the SS IS an establish brand of competing currency. Someone has a stock of silver bullion (in many various imprints other than SS) and due to SS's established brand and underlying message of education and independence wants to have this bullion reminted as SS rounds. Is this process something that the "open source currency" nature would address (i.e. home refinement and reminting) or is this something to be addressed later, possibly in the form of an entreprenuer offering bullion "buyback" in exchange for SS rounds? I know nothing of silver really, so my questions come from the assumption that if it's feasible to IMPRINT silver at home, it might also be possible to refine it from home too. I hope that makes sense...
Right now there are kits to test if it is silver but no the purity of the silver.
I'm still trying to find something that will tell you the purity of the silver.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on April 09, 2008, 04:23 PM NHFT
So when I hear "bars" I should think "large quantity" and less "shape"? So a 1 ounce "rectangular round" is accepted by you guys as readily as a 1 ounce round... round is.
Correct.
Quote
Okay, so as someone who has no experience handling silver, is the only way to assess the value of silver "on-the-spot" is to accept only from sellers I believe have an acceptable level of trust and only accept brands of silver with a mark/name I trust? That makes sense, really, if there's no practical way to quickly assess the fineness of a piece.
Pretty much. People who deal in silver a lot can tell fineness by the sound (think tuning fork).
Quote
Fast forward a bit to when the SS IS an establish brand of competing currency. Someone has a stock of silver bullion (in many various imprints other than SS) and due to SS's established brand and underlying message of education and independence wants to have this bullion reminted as SS rounds. Is this process something that the "open source currency" nature would address (i.e. home refinement and reminting) or is this something to be addressed later, possibly in the form of an entreprenuer offering bullion "buyback" in exchange for SS rounds?
Both. But hopefully the end result is eventually it reinforces the idea of metals as money, and people get more comfortable with using generic silver.
Quote from: porcupine kate on April 09, 2008, 05:41 PM NHFT
Right now there are kits to test if it is silver but no the purity of the silver.
I'm still trying to find something that will tell you the purity of the silver.
What about a touchstone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone)
Quote from: toowm on April 09, 2008, 08:00 PM NHFT
Quote from: porcupine kate on April 09, 2008, 05:41 PM NHFT
Right now there are kits to test if it is silver but no the purity of the silver.
I'm still trying to find something that will tell you the purity of the silver.
What about a touchstone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone)
Destructive, and inaccurate.
Verification of metals will always go back to Archimedes' solution: weight and volume.
Unless any alloyed metal's density is identical or very close to the precious metal, lack of purity will be apparent.
I still maintain that folks are spending excessive amounts of thought on the ways to spot counterfeit silver. The fact is, in the small denominations (or weights, if you prefer) the Shire Silver pieces aren't going to be economically counterfeitable in a manner that would still produce the easily recognizable bell-tone when dropped on a hard surface. Thus, any lesser metal used, or significant amount of lesser metal alloyed with silver to reduce the silver content would effect the sound in a noticeable fashion. Additionally, any efforts at "clipping" any worthwhile amount of silver would noticeably change the size and weight of the pieces. Therefore, any significant counterfeiting or debasing operation would actually be extremely expensive, and not at all cost effective--it'd cost more than you'd get from the clipping or counterfeiting.
At most, all you'd need to find counterfeits or clipped pieces is one known good Shire Silver piece to compare size and weight, and bounce the suspect piece on a hard surface.
Now, as there are some ideas running around for the next stages of the currency--e.g. the gold pieces, the wire-impregnated cards, etc., there may be some issues with those--but I submit that current thought needs to be spent on getting the initial minting done--not on the long-term and future products.
Quote from: ancapagency on April 10, 2008, 05:45 AM NHFT
I still maintain that folks are spending excessive amounts of thought on the ways to spot counterfeit silver.
I don't. I think the concern about diluted and/or counterfeit silver is an extremely valid concern, and I'm both glad and impressed that so many people are bringing it up. A big part of the reason why the Roman Empire fell was because they used gold as a currency, and there were people who clandestinely made gold coins with a diluted percentage of gold in them, causing a lot of inflation.
When stuff like Shire Silver replaces the FRN's throughout much of America, and I truly believe that one day it will, a major issue is going to be how are we going to keep what happened to the Roman Empire regarding this issue from happening to us.
Quote from: Luke S on April 10, 2008, 10:53 AM NHFT
I don't. I think the concern about diluted and/or counterfeit silver is an extremely valid concern, and I'm both glad and impressed that so many people are bringing it up. A big part of the reason why the Roman Empire fell was because they used gold as a currency, and there were people who clandestinely made gold coins with a diluted percentage of gold in them, causing a lot of inflation.
Please read my entire post before replying.
I fully understand that counterfeiting is a problem that will eventually have to be dealt with--see the case in which I mentioned that in the same post. The fact is that it IS NOT a problem in the present and near future Shire Silver case, and expending vast amounts of time and thought and breath and electrons discussing it at this point merely pushes the day Shire Silver is produced, released, and circulated off further. It is better to get out a good and useful product now, than to spend forever working to develop a theoretical perfect product many years from now (or never).
In order to get anything done, as dissatisfying as it may be, you must be willing to accept a certain amount of imperfection in the short-term.
Quote from: 'ancapagency'I still maintain that folks are spending excessive amounts of thought on the ways to spot counterfeit silver.
I'm not focusing on counterfeiting per se. I ask because I'm not used to circulation silver or gold and I'd like to know more about how to protect myself as a buyer and seller. I also think that at least addressing these things from an informative perspective (not so much as a design of SS perspective) is important to educating people about their money. I have these questions and I'm already "on board" so to speak, I'm sure they'll arise from someone new.
Quote from: 'ancapagency'The fact is, in the small denominations (or weights, if you prefer) the Shire Silver pieces aren't going to be economically counterfeitable in a manner that would still produce the easily recognizable bell-tone when dropped on a hard surface.
This is kind of what I mean - this is something that you as an exchanger of silver understands but someone who's entire dealings with "money" are paper notes. There's always a lot of information that we take for granted (I do it ALL the time when discussing computers with other people) that may be of importance to others.
Quote from: 'Luke S'I don't. I think the concern about diluted and/or counterfeit silver is an extremely valid concern
Quote from: 'ancapagency'I fully understand that counterfeiting is a problem that will eventually have to be dealt with
I'm not concerned with being passed counterfeit silver or gold. I trust that the VAST majority of people are going to do business with me honestly and in the rare cases they don't I have protections against them. What I am more concerned about, if the distinction shall be made, is not understanding my currency. I'm more concerned that "I don't know if this is fake" than I am about actually being passed something that's fake. I'm asking for answers, not solutions, if that makes sense. As far as I understand it, the goal of SS is to introduce silver as barter medium AND educate, which is why I think SS should include this kind of information.
Quote from: 'ancapagency'In order to get anything done, as dissatisfying as it may be, you must be willing to accept a certain amount of imperfection in the short-term.
I agree in one aspect and have to disagree in another. I'm a member of MANY Free Software projects. A consistent thing I've seen is "Get a working program and then document it". This works well as a goal decision, until you take a step back and understand that computer programs (like economies) are ALWAYS shifting to deal with new things. There is no such thing as a "working program" and because of that, there's always crappy documentation. :) The cause of this is simple - people who WRITE programs understand how to use them. People who use them know how to answer their own questions about the software and don't need documentation. The difference between those projects and THIS one, frankly, is that computer programs aren't ALWAYS written to be popular but the use of silver becomes more valuable the more popular it is. Universal acceptance is a VERY strong value for a currency and without answering the questions that people (like myself, honestly) have you reduce the chances that they'll accept it and use it daily thus reducing the value of it.
That is my only point and counterfeiting was only one aspect of that. I didn't mean to hone in on counterfeiting specifically.
QuoteA big part of the reason why the Roman Empire fell was because they used gold as a currency, and there were people who clandestinely made gold coins with a diluted percentage of gold in them, causing a lot of inflation.
Are you sure? There was a big inflation under Diocletian using silver-wash copper coins, but everybody knew they were of little value... they were just forced to take them.
Gold is very hard to counterfeit economically... pretty much impossible now that we have scales (you can use uranium and lead, but that's not cheap ::)). It is theoretically possible to counterfeit silver by using tungsten and lead, but the profit is small, the required scale huge, and it's still pretty easy to discover with electronics (eddy currents).
more power to someone that is going to take the time, MONEY, silver, and equipment to crank out a shire coin!
Quote from: telomerase on April 09, 2008, 01:45 PM NHFT
QuoteOr if the market demands it, 1/4 oz copper can be used as pocket change.
There are these things called silver dimes... for that matter, there's still all the silver coins we need. Why make new ones when the coin shops are full of old?
Plus they're perfect for doing business with the fourteen-fingered extra-terrestrials.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on April 10, 2008, 12:21 PM NHFT
...I ask because I'm not used to circulation silver or gold and I'd like to know more about how to protect myself as a buyer and seller...
This:
Quote from: ancapagency on April 10, 2008, 05:45 AM NHFT
...At most, all you'd need to find counterfeits or clipped pieces is one known good Shire Silver piece to compare size and weight, and bounce the suspect piece on a hard surface...
Quote from: zaphar on April 11, 2008, 12:13 AM NHFT
I remember seeing this tool for checking certain coins, it uses the weight and volume tests. If I remember correctly, it has a slot cut into it which you slide the coin through and a depression in which you place the coin flat. There's a ridge on the bottom side that allows the device to act as a crude scale when placed on a flat surface. Apparently one side is counter weighted so that when the specific coin is placed in the depression on the other side the device will balance out.
Its called the "Fisch". More discussion here: http://shiresilver.org/forum/testing_systems
It doesn't balance, but tips over when the coin weighs enough.
It works for gold, but not silver; because everything that's more dense than gold is more expensive than gold, but that doesn't hold true for silver.
Hey guys, I have more questions about Shire Silver.
Is it theoretically possible for somebody who wasn't supposed to be one of the Shire Silver minters to start minting Shire Silver pieces and going to stores that accepted Shire Silver and using them?
Is it theoretically possible for people in other states besides New Hampshire to get ahold of Shire Silver pieces and start using Shire Silver amongst themselves in those states as well?
Would you guys approve of it if that happened? Or disapprove of it?
What about that guy who suggested that copper rounds be used to supplement Shire Silver if the market demands it? What ever became of that suggestion?
Quote from: 'Luke S'Is it theoretically possible for somebody who wasn't supposed to be one of the Shire Silver minters to start minting Shire Silver pieces and going to stores that accepted Shire Silver and using them?
Technically, no. The aim of Shire Silver is to be decentralized and allow ANYONE to do it if they wish. It's "open source" currency. If you're not familiar with open source, basically it's a software development system designed to take the burden off of a single producer and allow anyone who's interested in the process to tak the code, tweak it to their desire and share those changes with other. The reason it's
technically not possible for someone "who's not supposed to" mint Shire Silver is because it's designed to allow everyone to mint it.
Quote from: 'Luke S'Is it theoretically possible for people in other states besides New Hampshire to get ahold of Shire Silver pieces and start using Shire Silver amongst themselves in those states as well?
Money can be spent anywhere there is demand for it. :) If you find an actual economy willing to trade with silver, more power to you. :)
Quote from: 'Luke S'Would you guys approve of it if that happened? Or disapprove of it?
The idea is to empower people do do both of those things.
Quote from: 'Luke S'What about that guy who suggested that copper rounds be used to supplement Shire Silver if the market demands it?
I don't think that's the aim if SS but there's no reason it couldn't happen. The simple truth is copper is not really all that valuable and taking the time to mint pieces of it wouldn't really pay off in the long run since a small silver piece can cover most exchanges. With the fact that silver is such a hedge against inflation the small "change" could be written off as exchange premium or "discount" considering that the same piece over time will have more purchasing power over the USD.
In short, if the market demands it, it'll happen. But for the time being, since silver use is essentially confined to altermarkets transactions aren't typically so exact to require "change" in other metals. You can add FRN's into the exchange to make up the loss if need be. Long term, there will be systems in place (banks) that would issue certificated or debit cards that could handle fractional ounce transactions so that you could be more specific with an impersonal seller (like paying the phone bill) but none of that is the current aim of SS.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on May 12, 2008, 12:44 PM NHFT
Quote from: 'Luke S'Is it theoretically possible for somebody who wasn't supposed to be one of the Shire Silver minters to start minting Shire Silver pieces and going to stores that accepted Shire Silver and using them?
Technically, no. The aim of Shire Silver is to be decentralized and allow ANYONE to do it if they wish. It's "open source" currency. If you're not familiar with open source, basically it's a software development system designed to take the burden off of a single producer and allow anyone who's interested in the process to tak the code, tweak it to their desire and share those changes with other. The reason it's technically not possible for someone "who's not supposed to" mint Shire Silver is because it's designed to allow everyone to mint it.
Quote from: 'Luke S'Is it theoretically possible for people in other states besides New Hampshire to get ahold of Shire Silver pieces and start using Shire Silver amongst themselves in those states as well?
Money can be spent anywhere there is demand for it. :) If you find an actual economy willing to trade with silver, more power to you. :)
Quote from: 'Luke S'Would you guys approve of it if that happened? Or disapprove of it?
The idea is to empower people do do both of those things.
Quote from: 'Luke S'What about that guy who suggested that copper rounds be used to supplement Shire Silver if the market demands it?
I don't think that's the aim if SS but there's no reason it couldn't happen. The simple truth is copper is not really all that valuable and taking the time to mint pieces of it wouldn't really pay off in the long run since a small silver piece can cover most exchanges. With the fact that silver is such a hedge against inflation the small "change" could be written off as exchange premium or "discount" considering that the same piece over time will have more purchasing power over the USD.
In short, if the market demands it, it'll happen. But for the time being, since silver use is essentially confined to altermarkets transactions aren't typically so exact to require "change" in other metals. You can add FRN's into the exchange to make up the loss if need be. Long term, there will be systems in place (banks) that would issue certificated or debit cards that could handle fractional ounce transactions so that you could be more specific with an impersonal seller (like paying the phone bill) but none of that is the current aim of SS.
Good answers!
BTW, I have been thinking about seeing if I can make a 10 gram copper piece, but I'm not sure its worth it. 10 grams is about 1/3rd of an ounce, so it would be a good size.
Another aspect of Shire Silver is to help market the use of silver as money, as well as trying to make it easier. I intend for the shiresilver.com website to list merchants who accept silver, and at what terms (face, spot, spot plus x%, 30DMA, 30DMA plus x%, etc). I personally like the 30DMA idea - it reduces fluctuations while allowing it to change.
30DMA?
30 day moving average. Take the average price of silver over the last 30 days, moving each day to the last 30 days.
30 DMA (from a quick google search) is 30 day moving average. I'm assuming it calculated based on spot prices over a 30 day period and then averages them.
The benefits is that you'd have a month-long period of consistent prices. I'm not sure I really like that idea, but I suppose it's not signifigantly worse than any other method.
My personal opinion is a bit more "flexible". I'm strongly considering a business idea that will allow me to conduct daily, common business and accept silver. I've been playing with the idea of using spot prices (at last close of market) as the baseline for transaction and then give a reasonable discount for conducting the transaction in silver. It would give incentive for using the silver over FRN but it would also bring signifigantly more silver my way in the early stages before the demand for FRN drops. It hedges against devaluation and inflation unless my plan is offbase. :P
I expect in the beginning it would be infrequent enough that the customers wouldn't mind the lack of fixed-prices but over time I'd probably move to simple spot... Man I need rest.
I'm not sure any of that is really a good idea. on one hand, its practical to have a conversion rate on the price of silver, but on the other hand, then everyone will think of silver as a fluctuating bill of dollars, basically a dollar backed currency. If the dollar goes down, the value of your silver changes too.
prices in silver will respond to inflation in the dollar because the value of silver will change immediately, but the prices on the goods will not. Financial markets clear much much faster than goods markets. Therefor the 10 dollar cup of coffee will be wroth 20 dollars for weeks but might change in silver since we're still looking at dollars as the base.
The better approach would be to simply have two prices (think of books that have the US price and the CA price on them). One ounce of silver for a cup of coffee (or whatever price) independent of how the dollar price is doing. It may not be practical until Shire Silver becomes popular, and will not easily lend itself to a table on a website, but I think overall it is a better policy, since it does not link silver to the dollar and can be used to emphasize it as a form of "universal barter" rather than "alternative currency", which may be more effective legally, seeing how the liberty dollar went.
Of course, whatever each company wants to do is fine, so long as it works for them, and it may just be that some stores are listed as "independent silver prices" or something. But I think it would be better to encourage having that over something else.
Quote from: 'jcchriste'I'm not sure any of that is really a good idea. on one hand, its practical to have a conversion rate on the price of silver, but on the other hand, then everyone will think of silver as a fluctuating bill of dollars, basically a dollar backed currency.
Understood, but to a certain extent this is why I LIKE the idea. I'm sure in New Hampshire (being on the Canadian border) you'll rummage through a pocketfull of US coin and find some Canadian pennies. I'm even sure that cashiers don't really hesitate to toss them in the penny tray and count it as "one cent". This is how it was in Michigan. In Kentucky, however, cashiers actually returned Canadian pennies since they weren't familiar with them.
Before I held silver I thought in terms of USD worth of silver (and to a certain extent still do) because everything I knew about money was based on the USD. This is a frame of reference a lot of people simply can't break and a price based on the conversion rate would introduce people to the idea that silver holds value without requiring them to take a leap of faith. I do specifically mean this for the early stages and not as a long term solution. At some point, when it's viable, I'd like to begin operating soley on silver with a premium charged for accepting FRN but realistically I don't see that happening short-term.
Quote from: 'jcchriste'prices in silver will respond to inflation in the dollar because the value of silver will change immediately, but the prices on the goods will not. Financial markets clear much much faster than goods markets.
Understood, but I really ask myself why this has to be. My business (sorry for being too vague, I'm still evaluating aspects of it and don't want to give too many details) will require I have a constant supply but NOT a stock pile of certain goods. This means I'll be paying market price each in short intervals and I can assure you from past experience that the goods do indeed fluctuate weekly. Buy steaks in bulk for a restaurant, for instance, and you'll see that the goods price (to the restaurant) fluctuates rapidly. It doesn't fluctuate to the CONSUMER becase many many many retailers are still in the "paper menu" paradigm. There's no real reason that a restaurant needs to take the loss to profit in the fluctuations of good prices except "it's usually done that way".
Granted, having set prices is a good thing. It's the reason every fast food chain has a dollar menu. I'm not arguing against that aspect. But the idea that prices are static, and not indicative of the market, is not set in stone.
Quote from: 'jcchriste'he better approach would be to simply have two prices (think of books that have the US price and the CA price on them). One ounce of silver for a cup of coffee (or whatever price) independent of how the dollar price is doing.
Long term I think that's the best way to do things. Short term, however, there are premiums involved in the exchange so to pay the same electric bill with my profits, I'd need to actully bring in MORE silver than FRNs to cover the cost of the exchange to FRN. This, however, creates incentive to use FRN which is opposite of what I want to do. Short term I think it's best to provide incentive to trade in silver because the number of people willing to deal in FRNs is still astronomical. As silver is established and the incentive is less important, stable, fiat-agnostic prices would emerge in silver (I buy in ounces but I like the idea of grams better...)
As long as the market is mixed, i.e. some are trading in FRNs and some in silver, then you should be able to make use of either. As more merchants start accepting silver, you will have more use for the silver you receive in trade. Like you said, you'll need FRNs to pay your electric bill but you'll almost certainly get enough FRNs for that. The portion of silver you receive, should to a large extent, be proportional to it's degree of acceptance, perhaps a little higher due to having more FSP customers who want to patronize you for accepting silver. However, you have to think of those customers as customers you might not otherwise have at all. Getting silver is certainly better than not getting that business at all, even if you can't freely spend it everywhere or have to convert it or just want to put it away for hard times, right?
Obviously a merchant can decide what works best for him/her but I think it makes sense to have prices set in silver rather than constantly exchanging based on the FRN price. To a large extent though not exclusively, the fluctuation in silver price in FRNs is tied to the unstableness of FRNs. Seeing a separate price in silver could help people to see that silver is more stable. As the other price is inflating, they will have to pay more and more FRNs while the price in silver would tend to stay the same, giving an incentive to pay in silver.
I was already planning to accept silver at my table at Porcfest and I think I said at spot value. After giving a little thought to it, I realized that I'd be charging people a premium to trade silver if I accept rounds at spot. Rounds are worth a little more than spot. Then I was thinking, why do I want to discourage any customers? It's a common and effective marketing practice to offer a discount to a certain group of people. It's good advertising and people like the feeling of getting a lower price than "normal". As long as you have a profit margin figured in even with the discount price, it can be a good plan. So I'm thinking I will more likely take my FRN price and round it down a bit to an even silver round price or something like that, essentially giving a small discount to people trading silver. If someone is considering buying something, that little extra incentive might be all it takes to get them off the fence to make an impulse purchase that they might not otherwise have made at all.
Quote from: 'dalebert'As more merchants start accepting silver, you will have more use for the silver you receive in trade. Like you said, you'll need FRNs to pay your electric bill but you'll almost certainly get enough FRNs for that.
Yeah, that's true. I suppose I bobbled by endpoints there... There's no way in hell I'd be taking in so much silver that I couldn't pay the electric bill in FRNs unless silver is widly accepted... in which case I may be able to pay that bill in silver. :P
Quote from: 'dalebert'The portion of silver you receive, should to a large extent, be proportional to it's degree of acceptance, perhaps a little higher due to having more FSP customers who want to patronize you for accepting silver.
That's true, but at the same time, very little comes from this small agorist economy unless the pace of the movers (in my distribution area) is enough to be injecting more wealth into the agorist economy OR unless the economy itself is going "mainstream". All the FSPers accepting silver means very little if it's not inspiring others to accept silver too. Your points are fair, I'm just trying to see how I'd personally encourage others to learn more about money.
(http://www.calamitiesofnature.com/archive/76.jpg) (http://www.calamitiesofnature.com/archive/index.php?comic=76)
Oh wow. I just realized this one is also called "Funny Money".
http://anarchyinyourhead.com/2007/11/24/funny-money/
That reminds me of Zimbabwe's inflation, between the time that you order and pay for your sandwich inflation has caused the price to go up 3-4% which can be a problem while grocery shopping. People have to carry bales of cash around.
PS anybody know where I can buy bales of Zimbabwean cash? At less than the government (Zimbabwe's) rates?
What do you guys go by to figure out a good price on an ounce of silver? Like, what's the appropriate spot on a round vs. a 10 oz, and etc.?
I've toyed with the idea of using metals as my base of pricing. One wedding shoot = half ounce of gold. It's about what I'm charging now, but puts an actual value on it.
Quote from: dalebert on June 06, 2008, 05:56 PM NHFT
What do you guys go by to figure out a good price on an ounce of silver? Like, what's the appropriate spot on a round vs. a 10 oz, and etc.?
http://www.kitco.com/market/
I guess they are going with the Lloyd
http://shiresilver.com/
8) ;D
Sorry about taking so long, but I've been busy with stuff like trying to come up with money to pay the mortgage.
I should be able to get back to working on it some next week.