From the front page of today's Concord Monitor:
Her only housing option: a car
Illness turned her life upside down
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050801/REPOSITORY/508010309/1031
For a month now, Kelly Hersey has lived out of her 2001 Suzuki Vitara. Every night, she drives from one exit of Interstate 93 to another, scared of nodding off at secluded rest stops. During the day, she steals what sleep she can. Despite the summer's searing heat, Hersey, 40, won't turn on the air conditioning. She has to save gas.
Hersey never imagined being homeless. For 21 years, she held a steady job. She raised two kids on her own and paid her bills on time. She loved doing crossword puzzles, watching the Lifetime channel, and cooking every night in her own kitchen.
But two years ago, that all changed. Hersey came down with shingles, a virus that damaged her nerves and causes searing pain to shoot through the face. "She has continuous pain," said Dr. Duncan Coolidge, Hersey's primary care physician at Franklin Regional Hospital. "And there's not much you can do."
Compounding the pain, Hersey also suffers from osteogenesis imperfecta, a genetic disease that dramatically weakens bones, leaving her with five slipped disks and drastic hearing loss. After weeks of rocking in bed with pain, she quit her job.
The $575 monthly government disability check failed to cover Hersey's $650 monthly rent for her apartment in Franklin. The city of Franklin helped pay her rent for four months, and for a while she received state disability benefits. But the bills were piling up, and it soon became clear that without a job, Hersey couldn't stay afloat.
So on July 1, she put her couch and kitchen supplies in storage, and moved into her car. Her back seat holds a lounge chair for stretching out, trash bags full of clothes, and food for Mojo, the long-haired dachshund that is her companion and protector on the road. When Hersey drives, Mojo places his front paws on her shoulder. When she sleeps, he stands on the dashboard, peering out the window. "He just watches to make sure I'm safe," Hersey said.
Hersey's ordeal tells the tale of an overburdened public housing program, skyrocketing rents, and disability benefits that don't come close to approaching the cost of living in Merrimack County.
While she has applied for public housing and Section 8 housing vouchers with every Merrimack County housing authority accepting applications, it may be a year before she receives government subsidized housing. Some housing authorities have such a backlog in applications that they're refusing to accept any more. With a housing voucher, Hersey would pay 30 percent of her income in rent, and the government would subsidize the rest.
"The wait is six months to one year, at least," said John Hoyt, executive director of the Concord Housing Authority. "And quite honestly, there's a preference for Concord residents. She's stuck. I bet I get three to five phone calls a day from people in the same situation."
"Since I arrived in August 2002, the Section 8 program has been cut by a cumulative 37 percent. Public housing has been cut by a cumulative 11 percent," Hoyt added. "I would need 250 housing vouchers to take care of everyone on my current list."
Simultaneously, rental prices have soared. According to the New Hampshire Housing Finance Authority, the median rent for a two-bedroom apartment in Merrimack County increased from $616 a month in 1995 to $946 in 2005. Hersey wasn't even able to find a room in someone else's apartment that she could afford.
"It's unbelievable what rents are here. When I was working, I was making good money: $17 an hour. I could pay my bills. I could raise kids by myself. Now I can't even take care of my dog," she said.
These days, the hours pass slowly for Hersey. "It feels like months. It's getting to me. I want to be able to take a shower. I feel nasty all the time," she said.
Each day is the same: driving from rest stop to rest stop; sneaking into campsites to use the shower; driving to her post office box to make sure nothing has arrived from a housing authority.
In the morning,Hersey uses part of her $149 in monthly food stamps to buy a pint of milk. Cereal has become her staple on the road, and she's been losing weight fast. At night, she buys a roll and cold cuts to share with Mojo.
Hersey misses her kitchen, and having a safe place to store food.But most of all, she misses stretching out at night, surrounded by her own things.
"I want a hot meal. That's nice. But what I really want is my own home. I want to lay my head on a pillow at night. I don't want to think about getting attacked."
She controls the chronic pain in her face with a powerful narcotic medication. She can't sit in one position for too long, and routinely stands up to ease the pain. When she walks, she does so gingerly.
"There are many people living off the fat of the land with feigned illnesses, like back pain," Coolidge said. "Here's someone who's really suffering, and who has been very responsible." According to Coolidge, it would be "extremely difficult" for Hersey to return to work. What she needs, he says, "is a warm, reasonable apartment. She deserves that."
Hersey's kids can't take her in. Her son, 20, lives with his girlfriend's family. And her 22-year-old daughter, who adopted Hersey's three cats, lives in a small apartment with a roommate. She speaks with them each week. She says her son cried when he helped her move out of her apartment. But she says: "I haven't called them too much because I don't want them to know how depressed I am."
Until she finds a home, she finds solace with doctors and nurses at Franklin Regional Hospital. "They just let me know they care. They let me know that I'm worthy. The dietician bought me lunch the other day. That makes me feel like I'm not a nobody." Cynthia Brown, one of the nurses, invites Hersey home to dinner, and hugs her outside the hospital doors.
For strength, Hersey has a spare tire cover with a picture of a bald eagle. Hersey has long collected decorations, blankets: anything she can find with pictures of the soaring birds.
"For years, I have thought of myself as an eagle," she explained. "I'm strong. I'm a warrior. Yet I'm gorgeous and graceful at the same time. They're what I stand for. I've helped people for most of my life. I raised two children with no help from their father. And I think I did a good job with them. That's what I represent."
"I'm a good person. I don't do drugs or alcohol. Now I don't even smoke. This isn't fair. I've supported myself since I was 17 years old. Now I need help and I can't get it,"Hersey said. "I watch people and wonder where they're going home to. That's what's on my mind. That's all I want, to be able to go home."
My wife and I have decided to take her in. It's not the government's job to do this. Hopefully she'll accept our offer.
Please keep Us informed if Kelly accepts the offer.
Hats Off to You and Your Wife for this gesture and example.
Thank you!
Does anyone on the NH Underground have some extra space where she could store her stuff that she's currently paying monthly storage costs for?
This stuff, is so sad.
If people didn't assume that their would be a government "safty blanket" for them in case of ill health, they'd be more likely to prepaire themselves. (Not saying she did that, but it's in many ways part of our culture now.)
Perhaps she would have had the forsight then, to purchase disability insurence, and perhaps save more of her money before these problems occured.
Medicine wouldn't be nearly so expensive either if the government weren't so involved with it either, so medicle treatment and technology wold be much more advanced then it currently is.
That said, I'm glad you're willing to take her in. This sets a very possitive example of libertarianism.
Tracy
This sad story presents excellent examples of everything that is wrong with relying on government for solutions to personal hardship.
And Mike's offer is the perfect counter-example of everything that is right with private charity.
Instead of tens of thousands of dollars of government assistance to provide food and housing for one person (and the hundreds of thousands it takes to administer those programs), it only takes one family offering a spare room (or even a couch). Churches and private charities have food (usually better and in larger quantities that is available through food stamps).
Thank you, Mike and Amethyst.
Kevin
I?ve very mixed feelings regarding this story.
First off, the fact you are willing to take her in shows you truly are an amazing human being.
I?m appalled though that her two kids wouldn?t take her in. If it were someone in my family you?d better believe I?d be opening the door for them or I?d look to move with them to help cover the costs of an apartment at the very least.
But what bothers me is that this woman?s problems are brought on herself. In the fourth paragraph down it states ?After weeks of rocking in bed with pain, she quit her job.? I feel bad that she had the medical problems that she had but if you are supporting yourself and your family and you up and quit your job what else do you expect to happen? Things get rough. People have to deal with hardships everyday. Some give up as apparently this woman did and others push themselves.
Look at Lance Armstrong. Do you think he had pain in his life? Do you think he had to struggle? Did he quit when it got tough? Life sucks but you have to make a choice on whether you want to work through pain and hardships or eat dog food while living in your car wondering why the government isn?t giving you enough to live on.
I know this sounds cold but it?s a hard fact of life. You can?t sit back and hope for people to be kind hearted enough to take care of you? sometimes you have to push through pain and suffering just to put food on the table.
First off, let me say Mike and Amethyste are terrific! Fine job. This is how help should be given, person to person, not from a faceless bureaucrat.
Secondly, I can't totally condemn the relatives. They are a product of our times, and the public school indoctrination they undoubtedly received. One of the goals of public education is to drive a wedge between family members, so that in periods of difficulty a person will look to the State for aid, rather than depend on the family, or network of friends. This situation worked out as the State wanted it. It achieved its goals, dependence on the State. The State does NOT want to offer help, but merely an APPEARANCE of aid and concern. The State wants her to remain dependent on them. She is in the cogs of the vast bureacracy, which of course offers no cure. A cure is not needed nor wanted.
We're having a hard time contacting Ms. Hersey. I called and e-mailed Mrs. Liebowitz, the reporter. I also called for Cynthia Brown, the nurse at Franklin Regional Hospital, but she's not there right now. I'll try calling again later today.
I can't blame Ms. Hersey for not forseeing these circumstances - even my wife and I do not have disability insurance, but we should definitely reconsider it now.
Well-stated, Alan. The government tears families apart from cradle to grave, destroying the value of family and promoting the victim mentality and dependence on the system. Ms. Hersey is very independent, but not perfectly independent. Neither am I. Perhaps her children should have helped take care of her. I don't know what's really going on here, but hopefully we'll find out soon.
Dear Mike,
Thanks very much for your email and message - I've been out reporting all
day, and just returned to them. I apologize for not getting back to you
sooner. If it's alright with you, I will pass on your number to Kelly, and
then she can be in touch with you directly.
Best, Sarah
Woohoo! :)
I can't really blame the kids either. They're spending soo much money paying for all those people on "WelFare" they probably genuinely feel like they couldn't help her out.
And they also probably feel like they "already gave at the office."
Another sickness caused by the welfare mentality.
TRacy
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 02, 2005, 12:49 PM NHFT
I can't really blame the kids either. They're spending soo much money paying for all those people on "WelFare" they probably genuinely feel like they couldn't help her out.
That is SOOOOOO true!
So much of my money has been taken from me by force I feel like I?m in the same boat. I can?t even take care of my own needs much less help someone else out!
I have a 240+ year old historic property I?ve been trying very hard to restore and unfortunately since I?ve been trying to do all the work myself have found I am unable to keep up with the tests of time? One of the two barns on my property just had one of the major beams snap clean in half so I?m doing everything I can to find ways to keep it standing long enough to save the money to have it restored. Since a third to a half of my paycheck is taken from me by force and I know time is running low if I wish to save my barn I have to resort to looking for government grants for historic restorations. I?m stuck resorting to begging the government for some of my own money back so I can take care of my property? which once I do restore it they?ll turn around and tax me MORE on in property taxes for keeping it up anyway.
Ms. Hersey called!
She said her faith in the human race has been restored as several families and businesses called her in the last two days with offers. At least 5 families in Franklin have offered to help her out in some way! She has also received calls from restaurants offering free gift certificates for food!
I love this place! :)
She will weigh her options and give me a call back if she needs anything.
I wonder how many more people are in her situation that need our help but don't make the news...
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 02, 2005, 04:20 PM NHFT
I wonder how many more people are in her situation that need our help but don't make the news...
I hear there are over 1000 homeless people in Manchester. That is almost 1% of the population.
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/crimreport/pressrelease.html
20 Meanest Cities:
...
20. Manchester, New Hampshire
Quote
Advocate Cindy Carlson reports police enforce laws arbitrarily against homeless people in Manchester. For example, people found publicly urinating might be cited for a sex offense?like indecent exposure. Homeless people commonly receive citations for sleeping in public/or park curfew violations, public lounging and storage of property on public property. These laws, Carlson states, are enforced strictly against homeless people because people who do not appear homeless will not be cited for lounging or public storage. Police also regularly check ID?s and search bags of homeless people.
There is a downtown bus station (now called a "welcome center") that has an overhang roof. On bad weather days many of the homeless people gather there on park benches. These benches have now been removed. Ironically, the park is named Veterans Park.
Consistent harassment of people in encampments pushes the camps further into the woods, making it difficult for service providers to reach those in need. A new criminal justice block grant, the "Weed-and-Seed" program, seeks to "weed out" the "bad" people by tearing down underbrush and trees camouflaging homeless encampments.
Carlson notes that sweeps occur every time there is an event at the Verizon Civic Center, which is located only a few blocks from major homeless service providers. Police move people along, and former havens by the river are now being cleaned up as a new walkway is being put in. A cemetery where many homeless people stayed is now refurbished, making this haven off limits as well.
NEW HAMPSHIRE COALITION TO END HOMELESSNESS
http://www.charityadvantage.com/NHCEH/Home.asp
Coalition meetings are held the first Friday of every month from 9:30-11:00 a.m.
The August 5th Coalition meeting will be held at The Salvation Army, 58 Clinton Street, Concord, NH 03301.
Thanks for the info, mr. president!
Quote from: lildog on August 02, 2005, 09:05 AM NHFT
I?ve very mixed feelings regarding this story.?
First off, the fact you are willing to take her in shows you truly are an amazing human being.
I?m appalled though that her two kids wouldn?t take her in.? If it were someone in my family you?d better believe I?d be opening the door for them or I?d look to move with them to help cover the costs of an apartment at the very least.
But what bothers me is that this woman?s problems are brought on herself.? In the fourth paragraph down it states ?After weeks of rocking in bed with pain, she quit her job.?? I feel bad that she had the medical problems that she had but if you are supporting yourself and your family and you up and quit your job what else do you expect to happen?? Things get rough.? People have to deal with hardships everyday.? Some give up as apparently this woman did and others push themselves.
Look at Lance Armstrong.? Do you think he had pain in his life?? Do you think he had to struggle?? Did he quit when it got tough?? Life sucks but you have to make a choice on whether you want to work through pain and hardships or eat dog food while living in your car wondering why the government isn?t giving you enough to live on.
I know this sounds cold but it?s a hard fact of life.? You can?t sit back and hope for people to be kind hearted enough to take care of you? sometimes you have to push through pain and suffering just to put food on the table.
This is going to sound harsh but I have to say it:
I had headaches that were very debilitating. Whenever I would cough, sneeze or bend over I would get excruciating pain. If I had not found the right doctor I would not have been able to continue in my job. The word is "ability" not "desire" to work.
And yes, Lance did quit when it got tough. He had to. He could not ride professionally while going through cancer therapy. He got better and was then able to ride again.
My headaches were able to be controlled with medication. The pain subsided and I did not have to quit.
Shingles is a disease that does not go away. The pain stays. It does not diminish with time. There is no cure for it.
Until you have walked in Kelly's pain or similar do not criticize.
OK, rant over.
Mike and Amethyste, thanks for your hearts in this.
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/crimreport/pressrelease.html
20 Meanest Cities:
...
20. Manchester, New Hampshire
Quote
There is a downtown bus station (now called a "welcome center") that has an overhang roof. On bad weather days many of the homeless people gather there on park benches. These benches have now been removed. Ironically, the park is named Veterans Park.
Why is that ironic? Oh, I get it... the
myth damn lie of the homeless veteran is rearing its head once again.
Kevin
This could actually be very good publicity for the NH Underground.
Perhaps, some of those in New Hampshire could volentere to some of these charities in opening up their homes to some people.
And those of us outside NH, could try and donate money to some of those individuals doing that, to help with expenses incured by doing that a little bit, perhaps?
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 02, 2005, 07:36 PM NHFT
This could actually be very good publicity for the NH Underground.
Perhaps, some of those in New Hampshire could volentere to some of these charities in opening up their homes to some people.
And those of us outside NH, could try and donate money to some of those individuals doing that, to help with expenses incured by doing that a little bit, perhaps?
Tracy
Good Thoughts Tracy!
Perhaps the Underground could create an affiliated 'entity' to accomplish these very things!
All that are interested and able will become a part of it.
It seems it may have already begun...as many positive/forward motion things will with Us...as a serendipity-like natural follow-up of actions like Mike and Amethyst's !
Why do people hold something against president? He's actually very helpful most of the time regardless of his past. ;)
There must be some way to find more people like Kelly and help them out, people that are normally very responsible but are only down on their luck and need a temporary hand up.
Hmmmm... time for some googling!
Interesting info:
New Hampshire's Homeless Shelters
http://www.gtii.com/members/lannin/shelters/nh.htm
The Homeless Hotline
http://www.nhhelpline.org/homeless.cfm
"These specialists help homeless persons locate emergency shelter during periods of crisis..."
This is one I wouldn't mind helping with. Perhaps we could sign on as an emergency shelter for families in our community or for responsible people or children who are temporarily down on their luck due to sickness or similar circumstances. For example, if someone's home or apartment burns down in Newmarket, they'd have a place to stay temporarily. This sounds like an ideal way for us to help out. I feel like we need to plug in to existing solutions as much as possible to avoid creating redundant organizations.
I am planning to look into Somebody Cares. It is a national faith based organization that tries to help those who fall between the cracks of the system. There is a Merrimack Valley Chapter. They claim to exist on donations and volunteers with a little help from United Way.
Cathleen
That's a good idea. I wonder if they require that you are a specific religion to help out. If so, I wonder if there is a similar organization that would allow an atheist to help.
Quote from: freedominnh on August 04, 2005, 12:19 PM NHFTThere will never be affordable housing in New Hampshire because of the price of land. What is considered affordable is outrageous.
Affordable is a very subjective term. When a community has an average income of $60,000+ affordable there will be a far different animal then it would be in a community with an average income of $30,000.
My wife and I made decent money while living in CT but because we were so close to NY City the homes in our price range were crap. Once we moved to NH we were able to find a far better home for the same price range we were looking at in CT. Unfortunately people on our road have been paying ridiculous prices for land and homes driving the value of ours up and thus driving up the taxes along with it.
A two acre plot with NOTHING on it just sold for $200,000 and a smaller ranch home with half the land I have and nothing but a large shed on the property sold for over $100,000 more then I paid for my house just 5 years ago. And from talking to the people who purchased in both cases they feel as though they got good deals.
Quote from: freedominnh on August 04, 2005, 12:19 PM NHFT
The waiting list in most counties is well over 1200.? There will never be affordable housing in New Hampshire because of the price of land.? What is considered affordable is outrageous.
It could be much worse. In the Burlington, VT area it is very hard for anyone but the poor and rich to find housing. The Democrats and Progressives have screwed up the area so much that the middle class can hardly even find a house in the area.
At least the middle class can afford to live in NH. Yes, a pro-freedom system works much better than an anti-freedom system.
I think one of the huge problems, is that a person is required to have a social security number to get a "legitimate" job. Many homeless people don't have such things.
Tracy
Remember the story about the homeless shelter in Denver, Colorado that provides a hand up instead of a handout? They take someone in, reform them, and help them lift themselves out of poverty.
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http://colorado.indymedia.org/newswire/display/5956/index.php
In Denver, Colorado, for example, Step 13 is a program founded by four homeless men.
"Step 13 works to solve the problems of the addicted homeless through a program of tough love, sobriety, and work," wrote Andy Bane for the Independent Institute (1991).
To participate in Step 13, clients are required to take antabuse (a drug that makes you nauseous if you drink alcohol); work, actively seek work, or attend school; attend drug and alcohol education meetings; and pay monthly rent to stay at Step 13 facilities.
"You can't hold their hands," explained Step 13 Executive Director Robert Cote. "You've got to rebuild them from the ground up by making them do what they're capable of doing: sobering up and working. This is the only way to help them to turn their lives around."
In Washington, DC, the Gospel Rescue Ministries operates from a converted crack house in Chinatown.
"Relying on volunteers and private contributions -- not government money -- the ministry operates a 150-man shelter, soup kitchen, food bank, and drug treatment center," wrote Michael Tanner, the director of health and welfare studies at the Cato Institute (July 1, 1997). "The ministry addresses its clients' needs for more than food and shelter: it provides education, job placement assistance, and spiritual advice."
Like Step 13, the Gospel Rescue Ministries doesn't allow clients to get something for nothing. So, to stay at its shelter, homeless men must pay $3.00 a night or perform one hour of work.
The Gospel Rescue Ministries puts government programs to shame: About two-thirds of the addicts completing its drug treatment program remain drug free, reported Tanner.
"But a government-run drug treatment center just three blocks away has only a 10% success rate, although it spends nearly 20 times as much per client," he wrote.
But government programs, which offer no-questions-asked food and shelter, don't just cost more and succeed less -- they actually seem to encourage homelessness, charged psychiatrist Lawrence Schiff. How? By making it easier to be homeless.
"The greater the monetary value of the benefits ... the larger the number of people willing to consider homelessness as a viable option," he said. Since the homeless can get free accommodations at government shelters (along with free food and medical care), he said, they are "subsidized not to obtain the skills to make the sacrifices necessary to obtain [their own] housing."
Only privately run charity programs -- like Step 13 and the Gospel Rescue Ministries -- seem willing to do the hard work to actually help indigent individuals battle their personal demons and permanently lift themselves from helplessness and homelessness.
---
Hmmm... they force the homeless to go to school and take drugs? ::) That's how the government grinds up children's minds and molds them to fit into society over the course of 12 years, and it works quite well.
I'm sure we can come up with a more libertarian idea that will work.
Quote"The ministry addresses its clients' needs for more than food and shelter: it provides education, job placement assistance, and spiritual advice." The Gospel Rescue Ministries doesn't allow clients to get something for nothing. So, to stay at its shelter, homeless men must pay $3.00 a night or perform one hour of work.
How about that type of help? Make people pay rent, provide them with learning materials, etc.
This is a completely different idea than I was thinking of originally because New Hampshire's homeless problem is so small. Before moving here, I lived in Vermont for 3 years, most of that time in Burlington, and its homeless problem is unbelievable. Every single day there are homeless people picking through your garbage, hiding in your yard, hiding their belongings in your trees. There are homeless people all over the place. A professor wrote a paper online (I can't find it right now) about Vermont's severe and increasing problems of homelessness and poverty in comparison to New Hampshire and if I remember correctly, his conclusion was that the changes were caused by the political differences between the two states.
The most important and effective thing we can do to reduce homelessness is obviously to keep New Hampshire as free as possible. But the problem of temporary housing during emergencies will always exist, and I'd like to at least help out by providing that type of shelter for 1 to 2 people.
However, when I was in jail, I gained first hand experience of New Hampshire's homeless problem. Some people in jail with me were homeless drug addicts. One homeless man turned himself in to PC (protective custody) because he almost drank himself to death the night of May 9th. :(
There must be something we can do to voluntarily solve the problem. I really like the Gospel Rescue Ministries model.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 05, 2005, 01:27 AM NHFT
The Gospel Rescue Ministries puts government programs to shame: About two-thirds of the addicts completing its drug treatment program remain drug free, reported Tanner.
"But a government-run drug treatment center just three blocks away has only a 10% success rate, although it spends nearly 20 times as much per client," he wrote.
Bingo.
This article was at the Lp.org website a while back too.
Tracy
This is the type of thing we could do for people. This amazes me. :)
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=1579.0
Speaking of doing things for others has anyone heard about the lawsuit against ABC and that show they have where they rebuild people?s homes over a week (I forget the show but its quite fun to watch)?
Anyway, there was a family, which was in the process of adopting 3 ?children? who were orphaned (they ranged from I believe 14 to 21). This family was chosen for the house make over (that might be the show title, extreme home makeover) and after a week presented an amazing house with huge rooms built for each kid. Not long after getting the house the family decided they just couldn?t adopt the three kids and the kids were sent back to where they came from (most likely either a foster home or orphanage). So now the three kids are suing as they were the reason this family was given the large home from ABC and now they are left out in the streets.
Quote from: lildog on August 17, 2005, 02:38 PM NHFT
Anyway, there was a family, which was in the process of adopting 3 ?children? who were orphaned (they ranged from I believe 14 to 21).? This family was chosen for the house make over (that might be the show title, extreme home makeover) and after a week presented an amazing house with huge rooms built for each kid.? Not long after getting the house the family decided they just couldn?t adopt the three kids and the kids were sent back to where they came from (most likely either a foster home or orphanage).? So now the three kids are suing as they were the reason this family was given the large home from ABC and now they are left out in the streets.
If that family does not adopt 3 other children, then they've exploited private charity for personal gain and should be publicly exposed as Scumbags of the Year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8973501/
http://www.tv.com/story/story.html&story_id=532
Quote from: KBCraig on August 17, 2005, 05:37 PM NHFT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8973501/
http://www.tv.com/story/story.html&story_id=532
I can understand why they're suing the family for kicking them out.
But I can't understand why they'd sue ABC for not giving enough. ABC has done more good through this show than these people could ever comprehend.
I wonder if California has "theft by deception" statutes? Many states do, and people can be criminally prosecuted for soliciting donations to a fake charity.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 17, 2005, 06:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on August 17, 2005, 05:37 PM NHFT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8973501/
http://www.tv.com/story/story.html&story_id=532
I can understand why they're suing the family for kicking them out.
But I can't understand why they'd sue ABC for not giving enough. ABC has done more good through this show than these people could ever comprehend.
If anything I would think ABC would sue the family as well.
It's sad to say but its gotten to a point where those trying to do something nice for people need to have contingency contracts.
Quote from: AlanM on August 02, 2005, 09:54 AM NHFT
First off, let me say Mike and Amethyste are terrific! Fine job. This is how help should be given, person to person, not from a faceless bureaucrat.
Secondly, I can't totally condemn the relatives. They are a product of our times, and the public school indoctrination they undoubtedly received. One of the goals of public education is to drive a wedge between family members, so that in periods of difficulty a person will look to the State for aid, rather than depend on the family, or network of friends. This situation worked out as the State wanted it. It achieved its goals, dependence on the State. The State does NOT want to offer help, but merely an APPEARANCE of aid and concern. The State wants her to remain dependent on them. She is in the cogs of the vast bureacracy, which of course offers no cure. A cure is not needed nor wanted.
Agree on your first sentence, but the idea of letting these relatives off the hook because they went to public school seems ridiculous to me. I was educated in the public school system, and wouldn't let my mother or anyone I loved spend a single night in a vehicle for lack of a better place to sleep. I don't think I know anyone who would, and if they did, it would be their own failing and not the fault of the government (unless you figure it's time to hand over conscience and morality to a third party).
You're right. It's understandable that a publicly educated child would not care about her parents.
But it's not excusable. There is no excuse for it.
I didn't say I excused it. Just said I didn't TOTALLY condemn them. This is a case where, if I knew them, I would speak to them about their lack of caring for their Mother, giving them a chance to change their ways. If they didn't I would shun them.
Exactly.
I agree, Alan. I don't totally condemn the relatives. Many, many family members love and care for their relatives in need. They often spend countless hours and days standing in lines in government offices, filling out forms and such to get Mom into substandard housing or healthcare at taxpayer expense. The system beginning with socialization at government schools is very damaging to families and their future lives. Very sad.
Cathleen
OK guys... educate me on this one. What is it about the public school system that encourages one to desert his/her family in a time of need? I get the whole "reliance on the state" bit, but in what way does that even come close to drilling out basic human decency?
What it drills out is personal responsibility. People spend years paying into a poor performing system and to reject the state's "help" in favor of self reliance is a lot to ask of over-burdened and uninformed
relatives.
Many people are caught unaware in a time of need. Unaware that what we have have been told is a safty net has huge holes in it. It takes knowledge of these shortcomings years in advance of Mom's old age in order to plan and save for the needs ahead. We have been encouraged to make our lives independent of our parents but not independent of the state. We are led to believe our taxes are our parents insurance. The family and community stucture is weakened and traditional charitable resources have been sapped out of the economy.
Obedience is the key to a successful government school. Creativity and uncontrolled exploration must be kept to a minimum. Nonconformity interferes with the master plan and is not tolerated. Bucking the system is bred out of you.
Cathleen
What government schools teach best is: The government is the answer to all our problems.
Government schools tear apart the structure and nature of the family in my opinion. It is a dictatorship for children.
http://www.childadvocate.org/
Quote from: cathleeninnh on August 24, 2005, 12:57 PM NHFT
What it drills out is personal responsibility. People spend years paying into a poor performing system and to reject the state's "help" in favor of self reliance is a lot to ask of over-burdened and uninformed
relatives.
Many people are caught unaware in a time of need. Unaware that what we have have been told is a safty net has huge holes in it. It takes knowledge of these shortcomings years in advance of Mom's old age in order to plan and save for the needs ahead. We have been encouraged to make our lives independent of our parents but not independent of the state. We are led to believe our taxes are our parents insurance. The family and community stucture is weakened and traditional charitable resources have been sapped out of the economy.
Obedience is the key to a successful government school. Creativity and uncontrolled exploration must be kept to a minimum. Nonconformity interferes with the master plan and is not tolerated. Bucking the system is bred out of you.
Cathleen
Sorry, but I'm still not buying it. I fail to see how ANY of it gets you close to leaving mom out in the car. If I squint and stretch and ignore my personal experience with public schools, I can see how it leads to her being there in the first place, and I can understand frustration over paying into a system that doesn't work, but at some point wouldn't you, unless you were a complete waste of sperm, see that mom's sleeping in the car and it's your job to do something about it? Heck, Mike made the offer to help. He presumably pays into the broken system too, and didn't use this as a reason not to help. Rail against the public school system all you want, but I think the blame for this one belongs with the kids and not the system.
Quote from: Mark on August 24, 2005, 05:41 PM NHFT
Sorry, but I'm still not buying it.? I fail to see how ANY of it gets you close to leaving mom out in the car. If I squint and stretch and ignore my personal experience with public schools, I can see how it leads to her being there in the first place, and I can understand frustration over paying into a system that doesn't work, but at some point wouldn't you, unless you were a complete waste of sperm, see that mom's sleeping in the car and it's your job to do something about it? Heck, Mike made the offer to help. He presumably pays into the broken system too, and didn't use this as a reason not to help. Rail against the public school system all you want, but I think the blame for this one belongs with the kids and not the system.
What about what the parents taught the kids?
Quote from: patmccotter on August 24, 2005, 07:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: Mark on August 24, 2005, 05:41 PM NHFT
Sorry, but I'm still not buying it. I fail to see how ANY of it gets you close to leaving mom out in the car. If I squint and stretch and ignore my personal experience with public schools, I can see how it leads to her being there in the first place, and I can understand frustration over paying into a system that doesn't work, but at some point wouldn't you, unless you were a complete waste of sperm, see that mom's sleeping in the car and it's your job to do something about it? Heck, Mike made the offer to help. He presumably pays into the broken system too, and didn't use this as a reason not to help. Rail against the public school system all you want, but I think the blame for this one belongs with the kids and not the system.
What about what the parents taught the kids?
Another excellent point that speaks against blaming this on the government, or even claiming that the government created the environment in which such a choice would be made.
As an aside (posting it in this thread because I figure this is where it started), what's with these Karma points, anyway? I kinda figured a poster would get nicked for being disrespectful/rude/etc. but I'm going up and down and up and down, and from what I can tell all I've done is disagree with some ideas that were posted by some regulars. If someone's offended, I'd sure love to know why.
Quote from: Mark on August 24, 2005, 07:29 PM NHFTAs an aside (posting it in this thread because I figure this is where it started), what's with these Karma points, anyway? I kinda figured a poster would get nicked for being disrespectful/rude/etc. but I'm going up and down and up and down, and from what I can tell all I've done is disagree with some ideas that were posted by some regulars. If someone's offended, I'd sure love to know why.
who knows why it goes up and down ....... sometimes when a new poster disagrees .....they look disagreeable ..... with good behavior you might survive ;)
Sometimes you might get smote just for furtive whispering and gleeful laughter. >:D
Mark,
Suggest you read "Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. It is available to read online at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
One of the points he makes, is that schools are designed to break down the family structure.
Quote from: AlanM on August 24, 2005, 10:09 PM NHFT
Mark,
Suggest you read "Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. It is available to read online at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
One of the points he makes, is that schools are designed to break down the family structure.
Alan,
I will check it out. However, to the original point that the kids are merely "products of the system," it's unthinkable to me that anyone I associate with (mostly publicly schooled) would consider doing this to a parent. I understand that many of you have issues with the public school system, but I think this one's a little simpler than a successful government conspiracy to destroy our families. Maybe the kids are broke too. Maybe the mom abused them and they've separated themselves from her. Maybe they've never been taught about compassion and charity (a job of the family whether the kid's in a city school or not, IMHO). Maybe they're just jerks.
Quote from: Mark on August 25, 2005, 07:11 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on August 24, 2005, 10:09 PM NHFT
Mark,
Suggest you read "Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. It is available to read online at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
One of the points he makes, is that schools are designed to break down the family structure.
Alan,
I will check it out. However, to the original point that the kids are merely "products of the system," it's unthinkable to me that anyone I associate with (mostly publicly schooled) would consider doing this to a parent. I understand that many of you have issues with the public school system, but I think this one's a little simpler than a successful government conspiracy to destroy our families. Maybe the kids are broke too. Maybe the mom abused them and they've separated themselves from her. Maybe they've never been taught about compassion and charity (a job of the family whether the kid's in a city school or not, IMHO). Maybe they're just jerks.
Maybe they are one of the above. My point in not totally condemning them lies in my belief that a given number of students in public schools swallow the indoctrination completely. It takes a strong will to resist twelve or more years of continued indoctrination. Some swallow some parts of it, others succumb to other parts of it.
Mark, the whole purpose of government education -- From Socraties utopian "Republic" to Prussia's State-School system, to current day is to sever the bounds between parant and child. The State is to take the place of the parent. And it actually works quite well.
The problem with government schools, isn't so much that they don't work. It's that
Quotethey're doing exactly what they were designed to do very well
.
I also think the "I gave at the office" mentality is a bit part of it too though. "I already paid my takes for my mom to get taken care of, and now she wants more?" Plus, if the weren't paying all those taxes they'd have more income to be charitible to begin with.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 26, 2005, 04:02 AM NHFT
Mark, the whole purpose of government education -- From Socraties utopian "Republic" to Prussia's State-School system, to current day is to sever the bounds between parant and child. The State is to take the place of the parent. And it actually works quite well.
The problem with government schools, isn't so much that they don't work. It's thatQuotethey're doing exactly what they were designed to do very well
.
I also think the "I gave at the office" mentality is a bit part of it too though. "I already paid my takes for my mom to get taken care of, and now she wants more?" Plus, if the weren't paying all those taxes they'd have more income to be charitible to begin with.
Tracy
I went through the public school system, AND I "gave at the office." I still wouldn't let my mother scrounge out an existence sleeping in the back of a car. Maybe I'm just extraordinary.
Or... Maybe not. I have no idea how Mike and his wife were educated, but I presume they "gave at the office" as well. Still, they felt compelled to help another person who needed it.
And yet her kids didn't feel so compelled. Maybe they just went to a "better" school?
Mark, you are comparing apples to oranges. Libertarians have a belief in self-responsibility, which is discouraged by authority figures. Cops tell us to depend on them for our safety, not, God forbid, defend ourselves. Teachers tell us to depend on them to teach our kids, do not attempt this on yopur own. Politicians tell us to depend on them to cure all ills of society, don't think you as an individual can solve problems.
Quote from: AlanM on August 29, 2005, 09:26 AM NHFT
Mark, you are comparing apples to oranges.
I'm not comparing apples to anything. I'm disputing the ideas that a). the public school system is set up to tear down the family structure and that b). people who pay taxes are less likely to support someone in need.
QuoteLibertarians have a belief in self-responsibility, which is discouraged by authority figures.
Me too, which is why at the end of the day, my choices are mine alone and are not a product of government policies.
QuoteCops tell us to depend on them for our safety, not, God forbid, defend ourselves.
How, specifically? In my city, the cops arm citizens with info on securing homes and cars, having emergency plans, preventing crime, etc., and do nothing at all to discourage self-defense.
QuoteTeachers tell us to depend on them to teach our kids, do not attempt this on yopur own.
I can't speak for the teachers you may have had, but parental involvement is heavily encouraged at my son's school. It always was at my schools, too. In fact, one of my mother's biggest complaints is that parents aren't involved enough anymore. She's been a fourth-grade teacher for 30+ years, by the way, and I've never caught her plotting about how to usurp parental authority. I'm willing to allow for the possibility that she might just be doing her job wrong, though.
Quote
Politicians tell us to depend on them to cure all ills of society, don't think you as an individual can solve problems.
Hey, we agree on something, at least... :D
Quote from: Mark on August 29, 2005, 11:48 AM NHFT
I'm not comparing apples to anything. I'm disputing the ideas that a). the public school system is set up to tear down the family structure and that b). people who pay taxes are less likely to support someone in need.
I do not believe public schools were created for the purpose of destroying the family structure. But that is still their result.
You may be misunderstanding our point of view. We didn't say the children were blameless. They carry absolute responsibility for their actions. We're only saying that government schools are also responsible for contributing to the children's irresponsibility.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 29, 2005, 12:37 PM NHFT
Quote from: Mark on August 29, 2005, 11:48 AM NHFT
I'm not comparing apples to anything. I'm disputing the ideas that a). the public school system is set up to tear down the family structure and that b). people who pay taxes are less likely to support someone in need.
I do not believe public schools were created for the purpose of destroying the family structure. But that is still their result.
You may be misunderstanding our point of view. We didn't say the children were blameless. They carry absolute responsibility for their actions. We're only saying that government schools are also responsible for contributing to the children's irresponsibility.
I don't think I'm misunderstanding. I'm disagreeing with the notion that any government agency shares any portion of the blame for my moral failings.
Quote from: Mark on August 29, 2005, 01:01 PM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 29, 2005, 12:37 PM NHFT
Quote from: Mark on August 29, 2005, 11:48 AM NHFT
I'm not comparing apples to anything. I'm disputing the ideas that a). the public school system is set up to tear down the family structure and that b). people who pay taxes are less likely to support someone in need.
I do not believe public schools were created for the purpose of destroying the family structure.? But that is still their result.
You may be misunderstanding our point of view.? We didn't say the children were blameless.? They carry absolute responsibility for their actions.? We're only saying that government schools are also responsible for contributing to the children's irresponsibility.
I don't think I'm misunderstanding. I'm disagreeing with the notion that any government agency shares any portion of the blame for my moral failings.
That's exactly what I'm saying. The children are 100% responsible. Government schools help create irresponsible children, but each individual is morally responsible for breaking free from this indoctrination and taking 100% responsibility for their actions. Children would exhibit far more responsibility if it weren't for government schools, but the blame still lies 100% with the children.
Even libertarians should not blame government schools for their irresponsibility, but we should still do our best to realize the cause of irresponsibility in our generation and seek to put an end to it.
Mike,
Do you feel the government deserves some of the credit for your offer to help this woman? After all, the government has created a system where we all give and give and give to support those in need. Perhaps the example set by the government was so influential on you that you felt a responsibility to step in and help.
What do you think?
Sarcasm is the second cousin of anger. Are you angry at me for some reason?
Is it really that hard to agree that growing up in a dictatorship has a negative effect on children's responsibility while still applying full personal responsibility to all individuals?
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 29, 2005, 03:07 PM NHFT
Sarcasm is the second cousin of anger. Are you angry at me for some reason?
Is it really that hard to agree that growing up in a dictatorship has a negative effect on children's responsibility while still applying full personal responsibility to all individuals?
That wasn't anger at all. It was a gentle ribbing to get you to see another point of view. At least, that's what it was intended to be, and I'm sorry if it came off as anything else.
I'm a firm believer in teaching kids responsibility at home, at school, when I'm coaching them on the ball field, or wherever else they may be. And I do agree with you that schools sometimes fail at accomplishing this. Where I disagree is when the conversation turns to, "Oh, well... what can we expect from town-educated kids... they're just doing what The Man wants them to do."
I see it as primarily MY job to provide moral/ethical/spiritual/etc. guidance while they're young, and THEIR job to take this guidance and shape their own decisions when they're grown. I'm not going to credit the schools when I succeed, or blame them when I fail.
Quote from: Mark on August 29, 2005, 03:35 PM NHFT
Where I disagree is when the conversation turns to, "Oh, well... what can we expect from town-educated kids... they're just doing what The Man wants them to do."
Yeah, I agree. That's a little too extreme for me to believe as well.
QuoteI do not believe public schools were created for the purpose of destroying the family structure.
Mike, this is one of the stated goals of those who created the educational system used today. Their purpose is to separate the child from the parent as much as they can, in as many ways as they can.
The same attitude I was trying to point out here:
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=1686.0
Quote from: katdillon on August 30, 2005, 04:12 AM NHFT
The same attitude I was trying to point out here:
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=1686.0
That's a university, though. The "kids" are adults, and should learn to work out their problems like adults.
By the way, I had a chance to visit Keene again today. It's really quite a nice town. :)