is this ever a good idea? i was thinking of asking a gun nut i know if he wants to go to "church" in deerfield. problem is, he's a very typical neo-con mccain guy. do you think bringing people like this is a good idea, or do you think it might just cause a lot of awkwardness?
Neocons, libertarians and guns? Hrm...
Without knowing about your friend or the church, I'd say if you think he's a standup guy most of the time, he'd probably be fair to bring along. I mean, unless you're routinely hanging out with beligerant, disruptive people it should probably be okay. Perhaps "warning" him that the folks there might have different opinions might not be amiss, and might even make he ask questions rather than opening his mouth and saying something stupid assuming that everyone who uses firearms is a neocon themselves.
There's no reasons respectful people can't chat and enjoy themselves. If you think it would turn not respectful, that's probably a good reason to uninvite the guy, not because he's a neocon.
You can't convince people about liberty if you don't interact with them though. :)
Quote from: Jared on October 10, 2008, 04:35 PM NHFT
is this ever a good idea? i was thinking of asking a gun nut i know if he wants to go to "church" in deerfield. problem is, he's a very typical neo-con mccain guy. do you think bringing people like this is a good idea, or do you think it might just cause a lot of awkwardness?
Sure, bring him along. But what Kevin says is right on. A reminder that not everyone who is a gun fan is necessarily a neo-con is probably a good idea if you know he is outspoken on his views. We're all pretty laid back at church so I doubt it would be an issue.
Quote from: Kevin Dean
Without knowing about your friend or the church
He's talking about the private range owned by Ron Helwig and it has been dubbed "church" because it's held on Sunday's.
QuoteHe's talking about the private range owned by Ron Helwig and it has been dubbed "church" because it's held on Sunday's.
The first thing that pops into my mind when I see "Deerfield" is Ron's range. :) I'm just not sure of the atmosphere. I'd be weary of a neocon in, say, Keene's Social Sunday, but I don't know the atmosphere of the event, that's all. It's possible it's almost entirely "apolitical" for lack of a better word. That's all.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on October 10, 2008, 06:03 PM NHFT
The first thing that pops into my mind when I see "Deerfield" is Ron's range. :) I'm just not sure of the atmosphere. I'd be weary of a neocon in, say, Keene's Social Sunday, but I don't know the atmosphere of the event, that's all. It's possible it's almost entirely "apolitical" for lack of a better word. That's all.
From the way you posted it, saying "the church" I didn't know if you knew that's what he was talking about.
Oh, just wait until he runs into The Right Sir Reverend Ryan.
There's discussion about a Cheshire Church, I'm well versed (no pun intended.... kinda).
Quote from: error on October 10, 2008, 06:24 PM NHFT
Oh, just wait until he runs into The Right Sir Reverend Ryan.
Is Jared's friend coming on the day of the Pink Pistol shoot? :D
ok so here's the thing. this person happens to be my father. i love him, but he's a neo-con. i guess my biggest concern is that if i bring him, do you think people will be good and not talk shop with him?
What's the worst that could happen?... >:D
Quote from: Jared on October 10, 2008, 08:30 PM NHFT
ok so here's the thing. this person happens to be my father. i love him, but he's a neo-con. i guess my biggest concern is that if i bring him, do you think people will be good and not talk shop with him?
Not talk guns at church?!
Quote from: error on October 10, 2008, 09:08 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 10, 2008, 08:30 PM NHFT
ok so here's the thing. this person happens to be my father. i love him, but he's a neo-con. i guess my biggest concern is that if i bring him, do you think people will be good and not talk shop with him?
Not talk guns at church?!
by "shop" i mean politics, activism, cd, etc..
Quote from: Jared on October 10, 2008, 08:30 PM NHFT
ok so here's the thing. this person happens to be my father. i love him, but he's a neo-con. i guess my biggest concern is that if i bring him, do you think people will be good and not talk shop with him?
Bring him along, I'm sure he'll be fine and everyone will be fine with him. I'll most likely be there, so it'll be good to meet you guys.
As for the "gun nuts" I know, they are mostly scared of standing up and being counted as an independant or a person that is against the expansion of government into our lives. If a lot of them see people the thing like they "secretly" do, they might vcome around and get involved.
I have a friend who's grand parents came from Russia and were Jewish. There they learned to put up with a lot of crap and when they came to this country, they continued to keep to themselves. This is a big factor in people getting involved.
You can not change peoples minds and sometimes I leave my friends company and go home and read when politics come up. They are hostle to Me because they don't want to be put on a "list" and be looked at by the man. They like their prisons just fine.
Bring your Dad, and also have him read this forum and se some Ridley reports.
Quote from: grasshopper on October 15, 2008, 07:50 AM NHFT
As for the "gun nuts" I know, they are mostly scared of standing up and being counted as an independent or a person that is against the expansion of government into our lives.
{snip}
Quote from: grasshopper on October 15, 2008, 07:50 AM NHFT
... a friend who's grand parents came from Russia and were Jewish. There they learned to put up with a lot of crap...
{snip}
Quote from: grasshopper on October 15, 2008, 07:50 AM NHFT
... they don't want to be put on a "list" and be looked at by the man.
This is just my personal view and hopefully it can help some gain a little "insight".
People here are pretty politically savvy and knowledgeable... knowing about a lot of the Executive Orders that have been made and the egregious parts of many of the laws and regulations that have been foisted on the unsuspecting public both on the Federal and State levels. There have been people arrested for merely asking questions of the "authorities" and speaking their minds. While the actions of some brave people here in the area of nonviolent civil disobedience has gotten them arrested, I'm not talking about them. The arrests I'm talking about ended with the people being charged with felonies as "domestic terrorists" by the Feds. With only the pretense of a trial, people have been convicted and stripped of their rights
legally (but not
lawfully) under the provisions of the PATRIOT I & II Acts. The general population either does not care, does not believe, or does not know the nature of the laws that have been pushed through in the last 7 years. When your Rights can be stripped from you for even appearing to be against the power elite, those who wish to retain their gun ownership
may have learned to at least
act like they're part of the "mainstream team". Is it any wonder that people who have looked at the current governmental landscape and people who have previously lived under similar governmental political landscapes have quickly adapted to the situation? I know people who survived Germany in the 30s & 40s. I have heard a lot of firsthand stories of what it was like. The climate, the attitude, the political landscape... Just a few years ago, one such person was telling me that it felt like Germany in 1933. Last week this same person told me that it felt like 1936 Germany, but just as the German people didn't see it happening, we just can't seem to see it happening. In the same conversation, I saw the attitude change of these people. They've gone from being openly opposed to the way things are going to only speaking about the situation within the right group of people and even then their tones have become more... hmmmmm... "cautious". They understand that this is serious business and that it can mean life or death.
Quote from: grasshopper on October 15, 2008, 07:50 AM NHFT
They like their prisons just fine.
I wouldn't be so quick to "assume" that is true.
Civil Disobedience, public protests, and bringing attention to issues & problems is the right way to go for some people, but it may not (more correctly "is not") the way to go for everyone. Many people have many reasons for supporting the causes of freedom from "behind the scenes". Some people may not be able to afford spending time in jail for civil disobedience. Still others may feel that their support is better conducted "covertly" or through other methods.
Personally, I feel it is unjust to be overly critical of them and their reasons for not using the same methods you do or being openly against the "system" as you are or not being openly supportive of the civil disobedience and methods you or others employ. It may or may not mean they are on your side. You may never know. Hopefully... in some way... at least privately... you can find out.
For those who speak out, our place on the cattle cars is already reserved. It is easy to say or write things such as "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees" when making comments on the Internet or in a barroom, but I would bet that when it comes to the life or death situation against the jackbooted authorities, many who talk with a lot of bravado will sell out their "compatriots" in a nanosecond. People may think that their actions will confirm their resolve, but how many will
truly take the choice of being "taken out by the chemical sheds and shot" rather than rat out others?
Sometimes, it is simply best to keep your associations with other like-minded people... private.
I don't know, this may be a tangent but...
I'm not exactly sure where my "line in the sand" is, but I'm absolutely sure of one thing. If I ever felt afraid to exercise I right that is CLEARLY documented by the govenrment people, that would certainly be it.
The right to drive a car without a license isn't documented, so while there might be an ethical issue there, there's probably not much legal one. The right to carry a firearm, however, is VERY clearly documented. The right to speak freely is also. If someone is afraid to exercise that, I very honestly believe that's already past the point of no return, the point where I couldn't possibly loose more. I think there's some level of valid criticism of someone who professes to defend freedom and liberty and then doesn't respond when there are very clear encroachments upon liberty, much in the same way I criticize pacifists for putting so much emphasis on human life that they'd not use defensive force to protect a human life.
I think your post kind of epitomized grasshopper's post though. I understand the very real fear of being disappeared for no reason, but I think there's a fatal flaw in that logic. If people are being disappeared when what their do is clearly protected by law, it means law has no weight at ALL and "towing the line" is no protection at all.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on October 15, 2008, 03:15 PM NHFTI understand the very real fear of being disappeared for no reason, but I think there's a fatal flaw in that logic. If people are being disappeared when what their do is clearly protected by law, it means law has no weight at ALL and "towing the line" is no protection at all.
Don't get me wrong... I'm a strong believer in the axiom that if you
think it's time to bury your guns, it is
definitely time to start using them! (Just to clarify, I'm not saying that it is time to start digging OR loading...)
I was just trying to point out that different people, who have similar goals and beliefs, can chose different methods for accomplishing those goals. As you point out, some believe that not getting a driver's license or registering a vehicle or following other governmental laws (that are sometimes outrageous), that those are things which
you feel probably don't present any legal issues. You point out that the Right to carry a firearm and the Right to free speech are "VERY clearly documented", so those being violated is past the point of no return.
Well... with over 22,000 "gun control" laws on the books and since both "Campaign Finance Reform"
and "The USA PATRIOT ACT" have very strong provisions which
limit free speech...
And given that the courts hold all the cards, can and
have arrested, charged and jailed "violators" of those provisions... I fully agree that we have reached a point where "the rule of law" has no weight at ALL and "towing the line" is no protection.
But my point was and is that the "line in the sand" is different for different people under different circumstances (and even living in different places or at different times). Evidently, your "line in the sand" isn't at a place where you believe that now is the time to be worried about those 1st and 2nd Amendment Rights.
I haven't heard anyone advocate anything other than the nonviolent protests that we all know about, but I do know of people who are very afraid...
very afraid of the government and who just do "what they're supposed to do". I think it is extremely brave for those on these forums who have been arrested for their civil disobedience... and we've heard a little about some horrors in the jail system which makes their bravery even more extraordinary; however, as I spoke of previously, I know people who have lived through seeing family and friends enter a "judicial system" to never be heard from again. You (not "you" Kevin, the general "you") say it can't happen here... I say it can and has. There are people who have been picked up, sent out of country and imprisoned for years already... here... in
this country... for the "suspicion" of being "associated" with "terrorists". This is known because some of them have finally been released... after loosing years of their freedom for no crime. Fortunately, they didn't end up in a concentration camp where the ovens are in operation, but do we really know that such a thing isn't and hasn't been happening? Are we
really certain that the news outlets aren't simply feeding us the news and views that the power elite
want us to have? Perhaps even in the case of the "opposing" point of view?
I spoke recently to a woman who grew up in 1930s Germany. She told me that they never heard about the camps, that the news was all either pro-Nazi propaganda or the "opposition" that was controlled by the Nazi's... and that the atrocities weren't told to or reported about to the general population. She only learned of them, basically, after the fact. As I said previously, there were others who lived in Germany present during that conversation with her. Those that
did know about the camps and the atrocities said that they only knew because people they knew were effected... friends, family, someone down the street... As I also wrote previously, I harbor no delusion that most folks who "talk a good game" would "dime out" any one of us if the need were to arise in a jackbooted thug "visit" that was a life or death situation.
So, I guess the question then becomes... where exactly
is that "line in the sand" that no one seems to feel has been crossed yet? <- (Rhetorical... not really expecting an answer and not directed as a question to you Kevin...)