Everyone tells me to blow you guys off and frankly I can see why but i want to give you all one last chance. Answer the following question succinctly, clearly and precisely:
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
I want to make sure you understand the question:
Not your philosophy. Your GAME PLAN.
Not your goals. Your GAME PLAN.
Not what you'd like to see happen. Your GAME PLAN.
Not your revenge fantasies. Your GAME PLAN.
There are people out there who have game plans that aren't working. You're all taking cheap shots at them and acting superior because their game plans aren't working. But at least they're trying.
How about you guys put your money where your mouths are. DO YOU HAVE A GAME PLAN? Even a bad one?
My only goal is to fuck over politicos.
My goal to get government off my back is: to live free, like the government isn't on my back.
I can't tell you how much it grieves me that you may blow me off because of this. Wait, yes I can: it won't grieve me at all. Blow away.
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
Everyone tells me to blow you guys off and frankly I can see why but i want to give you all one last chance.
One last chance for what? To earn your approval. ::) Crap, Mike beat me to it.
Everyone is active in their own way in what makes them comfortable. We're all individuals and we come together for events when someone organizes something to the extent that each individual is inspired and interested to do so. There is no "game plan" or plan of attack. We are wrenches in the machines of aggressive organizations with game plans and plans of attack. We're inspiring people to move here of their own volition and get active in whatever way they feel passionate about. If you want more info than that, it's available. Follow the forums, this one and FreeKeene.com. Listen to FTL. Not your fucking bitch. Not going to go back over months of activities and summarize and spoon feed it to you. It is a very tired old line that we aren't doing anything because we're not doing what YOU want us to do. If you don't like it, I promise not to force you to participate and I'm not going to troll YOUR forums.
Quote from: dalebert on November 05, 2008, 09:14 AM NHFT
It is a very tired old line that we aren't doing anything because we're not doing what YOU want us to do. If you don't like it, I promise not to force you to participate and I'm not going to troll YOUR forums.
Well said!
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
I've been a libertarian for more than a decade and I have voted in every election as a libertarian (even in 2008). I have been a libertarian "activist" (used the term loosely) for just as long and have been involved in all sorts of libertarian groups. What has the result been? My state of IN has turned more socialist. I have not seen the local party grow at all. I feel I am steps behind where I started 10 years ago.
Now I see the videos coming out of NH from real activists. There are people telling the police that they will not stop filming or recording or that police are not welcome on their property. The activists in NH seem to be making a strong and effective point whereas my efforts here get swept away every election.
I am in the process of growing to understand these things:
The government only has power if people recognize it.
A libertarian government would still be government and there would still be arbitrary lines to draw.
Game plan? I am starting to like civil disobedience.
:clap:
I see another game plan in your post: learning about yourself, growing as a person, finding out what makes you happy.
Quote from: Mike Barskey on November 05, 2008, 10:02 AM NHFT
I see another game plan in your post: learning about yourself, growing as a person, finding out what makes you happy.
I still like all the activism efforts underway and I feel really optimistic about the progress we're making. In a way, we're training police to respect innocent people and get back to being something closer to peace officers by standing up for ourselves when we're not doing anything wrong, and so on. However, let's not forget the things that really matter along the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onK2bzuwRNc
Quote from: Chemist on November 05, 2008, 09:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
I've been a libertarian for more than a decade and I have voted in every election as a libertarian (even in 2008). I have been a libertarian "activist" (used the term loosely) for just as long and have been involved in all sorts of libertarian groups. What has the result been? My state of IN has turned more socialist. I have not seen the local party grow at all. I feel I am steps behind where I started 10 years ago.
Now I see the videos coming out of NH from real activists. There are people telling the police that they will not stop filming or recording or that police are not welcome on their property. The activists in NH seem to be making a strong and effective point whereas my efforts here get swept away every election.
I am in the process of growing to understand these things:
The government only has power if people recognize it.
A libertarian government would still be government and there would still be arbitrary lines to draw.
Game plan? I am starting to like civil disobedience.
Thank you for addressing the question I asked and in an intelligent fashion. This is close to what i was looking for.
I agree that civil disobedience should come into the picture at some point. I'm not quite willing to make it my ENTIRE game plan but I've contemplated it as a component.
Game plan? I am starting to like civil disobedience.
[/quote]
Here here! :broc1:
It sure seems that people over here on this forum are far happier about their choices.
Nothing is as hard to do gracefully as getting down off your high horse. -Frank Jones
How many cares one loses when one decides not to be something but to be someone. -Coco Chanel
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
Everyone tells me to blow you guys off and frankly I can see why but i want to give you all one last chance.
Who is "everyone"?
Is "you guys" everyone on this forum?
We have one last chance to do what?
Quote
Answer the following question succinctly, clearly and precisely:
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
I want to make sure you understand the question:
Not your philosophy. Your GAME PLAN.
Not your goals. Your GAME PLAN.
Not what you'd like to see happen. Your GAME PLAN.
Not your revenge fantasies. Your GAME PLAN.
You question was not very succinct, but let me ask "the anarchist" what his game plan is ....
he says he will make an announcement tonight ... he has a big grin on his face and a funny mustache :V_mask_50:
You expect to come here blasting people and then get an "intelligent response"? ::)
http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=1362.0
Quote from: BikerBill on the NHLA forum
Quote from: J'raxis 270145
I wish the anti-political people (like Ian) would lay off the mocking and denigration of political activism.
However, considering how thoroughly the political "game plan" got thrashed last night, it's hardly time to start demanding that the other side—who's actually been more successful at what they're trying to accomplish—start emulating us, with long-term strategies, so-called game plans, and such.
It's a disheartening defensive pattern of "tribalist" behavior from both factions, no doubt. And yeah, (good natured) gloating can be motivational, and even empirically justified sometimes. But I've seen many examples of downright verbal cruelty and contempt going both ways (as if the other is somehow the most heinous of their myriad enemies), and it really sickens me. I think there's certainly room -- and potential success -- enough for both (all?). Preferably at least working peacefully, even if we can never hope for mostly cooperatively.
On the other hand, didn't I see someone's figures somewhere that 59% of the liberty candidates got themselves elected? Is that accurate? If so, is that not really amazing in these seemingly overly troubled statist-leaning times, and justifiable cause for celebration? Is there another state that can claim such a relative success? I assume we'll have even more running in 2 years, and more 2 years after that. What if we can maintain that batting average? What if in, say, 4 years, we have 300 running, and still get at least 59%? What could a caucus of 170 do...?
The fact that you ask what "the anarchist game plan" is shows serious ignorance about anarchists.
Quote from: Puke on November 05, 2008, 03:26 PM NHFT
The fact that you ask what "the anarchist game plan" is shows serious ignorance about anarchists.
I don't believe in anarchism. I believe fully in government... so long as it's me, free to do the governing. ;)
First, this is not a game.
Second, what is this about a game plan? Why is a "game plan" even required? And who would follow whom?
We are free people. We need no leaders and our plans are our own. Why would everybody need to follow exactly the same plan?
The lack of a game plan IS the game plan ;D
Quote from: dalebert on November 05, 2008, 10:35 AM NHFT
Quote from: Mike Barskey on November 05, 2008, 10:02 AM NHFT
I see another game plan in your post: learning about yourself, growing as a person, finding out what makes you happy.
I still like all the activism efforts underway and I feel really optimistic about the progress we're making. In a way, we're training police to respect innocent people and get back to being something closer to peace officers by standing up for ourselves when we're not doing anything wrong, and so on. However, let's not forget the things that really matter along the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onK2bzuwRNc
thank you so much for posting that video -
Quote from: Lumpy on November 05, 2008, 05:13 PM NHFT
Quote from: Puke on November 05, 2008, 03:26 PM NHFT
The fact that you ask what "the anarchist game plan" is shows serious ignorance about anarchists.
I don't believe in anarchism. I believe fully in government... so long as it's me, free to do the governing. ;)
while reading, at first, I was :pissedoff: :pissedoff:, but then I :clap:
Quote from: AntonLee on November 05, 2008, 07:36 PM NHFTQuote from: Lumpy on November 05, 2008, 05:13 PM NHFTQuote from: Puke on November 05, 2008, 03:26 PM NHFTThe fact that you ask what "the anarchist game plan" is shows serious ignorance about anarchists.
I don't believe in anarchism. I believe fully in government... so long as it's me, free to do the governing. ;)
while reading, at first, I was :pissedoff: :pissedoff:, but then I :clap:
Heh. Anarchy is the lack of a State, not the lack of a government.
If we are neighbors, and we get together and agree how we'll manage our shared road, we've created a government. But since none of us are pointing guns at each others' heads and engaging in coercion, saying "you must pay for the road according to my rules, not ones that we've unanimously agreed to," that government is not a State.
Wherever there are multiple people, there will be government. There doesn't have to be a State, though...
Joe
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
Everyone tells me to blow you guys off
I think you misunderstood them. What really happened, was they read what you wrote and told you, "Blow me!"
Quote from: BagOfEyebrows on November 05, 2008, 05:58 PM NHFT
thank you so much for posting that video -
Gladly. I think one of the most important parts of freedom is being proactive in your own life and in following your personal passions. Sometimes the rest can become too much of a distraction if you let it.
We went through a thorough game plan last night on Bonfire Night ... if you were not here to participate, we cannot inform you about our gameplan
Quote from: Russell Kanning on November 06, 2008, 05:33 AM NHFT
We went through a thorough game plan last night on Bonfire Night ... if you were not here to participate, we cannot inform you about our gameplan
LOL! Damn. Now you guys are going to move on without me.
When I see this subject title, "What is the anarchist game plan", all I can think of is some foosball, maybe a little DDR, followed by spankings and then the oral sex! Naughty, naughty Zoot, for lighting the grail-shaped beacon!
Quote from: Josh on November 05, 2008, 05:35 PM NHFT
The lack of a game plan IS the game plan ;D
Dude I can't believe you gave them our entire plan. hee hee
sometimes dale frightens me
The strategy of anarchists has always been "dual power" or "counter-economics/counter-institutions". Essentially to build the new society in the shell of the old. Agorism (radical, untaxed black markets) is a dual power strategy from left-libertarianism. Mutualism is another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power)
Dual power is a method of struggle for the revolutionary transformation of society. It presupposes a pre-existing, fundamentally flawed social order. Within that society, those who envision a different future create alternative institutions (AIs) that embody their vision. AIs are places for experimentation with new social forms as well as places for liberation for those who are oppressed within the larger society. As AIs spread and diversify, they take on more and more of the functions of a larger social system: creating over time an "alternative social infrastructure" that fulfills economic, political, social, and cultural needs. In addition to their direct functions, AIs demonstrate the viability of new ways of organizing society, and attract interest to the ideals behind them.
As the ideological monopoly of dominant institutions is broken and people increasingly rely on AIs, those who benefited from existing arrangements may seek to dismantle their upstart competitors. At the same time, those who seek fundamental changes in society or who find the alternative ways of organizing it valuable may seek to enlarge and strengthen the alternative infrastructure. Counter institutions (XIs) are created both to defend the AIs and to promote their growth. These work to challenge and attack the status quo while creating, defending, and securing space for opposition and alternative institutions. They do this with everything from political protests, to direct appropriation (of plantations, government buildings, factories, etc.) for the use of alternative institutions, to civil disobedience or armed resistance. The line between AIs and XIs is seldom entirely clear as many alternative institutions are also self-promoting or defending. Together the AIs and XIs form an alternative source of power in society which is "necessarily autonomous from, and competitive with, the dominant system, seeking to encroach upon the latter's domain, and, eventually, to replace it."
During the process of building the alternative institutions and the ideology that supports them, the advantage of dual power is the creation of real, and not merely political, momentum towards the revolutionary transformation of society. Actual changes are ongoing, rather than postponed to a revolutionary moment, so needs unmet by the pre-existing order are being met during the struggle and no sector of society is told that its concerns can only be dealt with after victory is achieved. That is, creation of AIs and the political space for them has intrinsic benefits, apart from the advancement of the revolutionary project. Over the course of building AIs, the society at large is empowered, committed to change, and skilled in running society. Simultaneously, the credibility of a revolutionary vision is increased immensely by putting it into practice and by refining and improving it over time. It is also conceivable that factional splits between revolutionaries and reformers (and all the shades in between) could be reduced by having a common project that both find useful. Those forces that would be sent to suppress a revolutionary movement find themselves confronting people who have taken control over their own lives, rather than armed cadre attempting to impose a vision on the country, potentially obviating military conflict or at least reducing its severity. Successful dual power rebellions end with the acceptance of the new social forms by much of the populace and the realization by the old rulers that they are no longer capable of using their systems of force against the revolutionary movement. This can occur because noncooperation has crippled the old structures of power, because too few people remain loyal to the old rulers to enforce their will, or because the rulers themselves undergo an ideological conversion. At this point, there is not general confusion. The disappearance of old leaders and structures of power is accommodated by the expansion of the alternative system. The alleged "necessity" for a revolutionary vanguard to guide the revolutionary impulse is shown to have no basis: because the people have already learned how to govern their own affairs, they need no tutelage from above. The possibility of co-option is minimized: "When the people recognize their true power, it cannot be taken away by rhetoric or [...] imposition."
Dual power is a strategy, rather than an ideology, and it could plausibly be used to advance a variety of forms of social change. However, the advantages of the strategy make it most compatible with perspectives that emphasize the exercise of power at the community level, that seek to make the revolutionary movement accountable to the people, that see the capability to revision and transform society as common rather than rare, and that seek decentralized forms of power. Call this version of the strategy grassroots dual power, the bottom-up transformation and replacement of the mechanisms of society.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on November 06, 2008, 06:57 AM NHFT
sometimes dale frightens me
Quote from: dalebert on November 06, 2008, 05:57 AM NHFT
followed by spankings and then the oral sex! Naughty, naughty Zoot, for lighting the grail-shaped beacon!
Not to worry Russell it is only a Monty Python line... :D
QuoteEveryone tells me to blow you guys off and frankly I can see why but i want to give you all one last chance. Answer the following question succinctly, clearly and precisely:
What is the Anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
QuoteAn oxymoron (plural oxymorons or, more rarely, oxymora) is a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms. Oxymoron is a loanword from Greek oxy ("sharp" or "pointed") and moros ("dull"). Thus the word oxymoron is itself an oxymoron.
Is this you?
Quote from: Puke on November 05, 2008, 03:26 PM NHFT
The fact that you ask what "the anarchist game plan" is shows serious ignorance about anarchists.
WELL SAID
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
Everyone tells me to blow you guys off and frankly I can see why but i want to give you all one last chance. Answer the following question succinctly, clearly and precisely:
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
I want to make sure you understand the question:
Not your philosophy. Your GAME PLAN.
Not your goals. Your GAME PLAN.
Not what you'd like to see happen. Your GAME PLAN.
Not your revenge fantasies. Your GAME PLAN.
There are people out there who have game plans that aren't working. You're all taking cheap shots at them and acting superior because their game plans aren't working. But at least they're trying.
How about you guys put your money where your mouths are. DO YOU HAVE A GAME PLAN? Even a bad one?
You seriously think I am going to answer this, inquisition? the way YOU want me too? I am sorry that "your game plan" on election night didn't go as smoothly as you clearly wanted it too, judging by the way you come here to bash us, then bash your own politicos over on the NHLA forum, you know, the ones you called "nerds".
Question- What is YOUR GAME PLAN when the gov't raises taxes, further reduces the right to defend yourself, controls via ownership the mainstream media than it already does, has Another war to stifle criticism, attempts to control the internet, and does so all 100% completely legally?
Are ya gonna shoot em'? Yeah right. the last thing we need is more shoot em' up fantasies and mental masturbation.
Are ya gonna out politic the professional politicians?
Or are you gonna start slowly challenging directly the system that allows all the crap in the first place. We are already doing that.
You see, you dyed in the wool politicos have no alternative in the worst case scenario except a blind faith in a massive revelution that never seems to come. Politics is never favorable for political minorities. Yet you can't seem to learn from virtually 200 years of political history.
Dr. King helped lead the largest and most successful pushback against the police state in American history, yet people tell me that I live in a fantasy world when I tell them nonviolent resistance can work. You have no alternative so you come to our forum and challenge us because you cannot conceive of a plan different than the one you have written in your playbook, you know, the plan that unfolded on election day,...or didn't.
Quote from: BillKauffman on November 06, 2008, 07:18 AM NHFT
...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power)
Dual power is a method of struggle for the revolutionary transformation of society. It presupposes a pre-existing, fundamentally flawed social order. Within that society, those who envision a different future create alternative institutions (AIs) that embody their vision. AIs are places for experimentation with new social forms as well as places for liberation for those who are oppressed within the larger society. As AIs spread and diversify, they take on more and more of the functions of a larger social system: creating over time an "alternative social infrastructure" that fulfills economic, political, social, and cultural needs. In addition to their direct functions, AIs demonstrate the viability of new ways of organizing society, and attract interest to the ideals behind them.
...
What's the deal with that guy who wanted to have some sort of Expo for all the Alternatives and did he ever get those volunteers needed to flesh out the concept, man the events, take tickets at the door and especially someone with some web design savvy for their clunky site?
Thanks for finding this and posting it, Bill. I've been trying to say this clearly and succinctly for quite a few years now! I'll stop trying and just copy and paste this text in...
See also, Konkin, New Libertarian Manifesto (http://www.agorism.info/NewLibertarianManifesto.pdf)
Quote from: BillKauffman on November 06, 2008, 07:18 AM NHFT
The strategy of anarchists has always been "dual power" or "counter-economics/counter-institutions". Essentially to build the new society in the shell of the old. Agorism (radical, untaxed black markets) is a dual power strategy from left-libertarianism. Mutualism is another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power)
Dual power is a method of struggle for the revolutionary transformation of society. It presupposes a pre-existing, fundamentally flawed social order. Within that society, those who envision a different future create alternative institutions (AIs) that embody their vision. AIs are places for experimentation with new social forms as well as places for liberation for those who are oppressed within the larger society. As AIs spread and diversify, they take on more and more of the functions of a larger social system: creating over time an "alternative social infrastructure" that fulfills economic, political, social, and cultural needs. In addition to their direct functions, AIs demonstrate the viability of new ways of organizing society, and attract interest to the ideals behind them.
As the ideological monopoly of dominant institutions is broken and people increasingly rely on AIs, those who benefited from existing arrangements may seek to dismantle their upstart competitors. At the same time, those who seek fundamental changes in society or who find the alternative ways of organizing it valuable may seek to enlarge and strengthen the alternative infrastructure. Counter institutions (XIs) are created both to defend the AIs and to promote their growth. These work to challenge and attack the status quo while creating, defending, and securing space for opposition and alternative institutions. They do this with everything from political protests, to direct appropriation (of plantations, government buildings, factories, etc.) for the use of alternative institutions, to civil disobedience or armed resistance. The line between AIs and XIs is seldom entirely clear as many alternative institutions are also self-promoting or defending. Together the AIs and XIs form an alternative source of power in society which is "necessarily autonomous from, and competitive with, the dominant system, seeking to encroach upon the latter's domain, and, eventually, to replace it."
During the process of building the alternative institutions and the ideology that supports them, the advantage of dual power is the creation of real, and not merely political, momentum towards the revolutionary transformation of society. Actual changes are ongoing, rather than postponed to a revolutionary moment, so needs unmet by the pre-existing order are being met during the struggle and no sector of society is told that its concerns can only be dealt with after victory is achieved. That is, creation of AIs and the political space for them has intrinsic benefits, apart from the advancement of the revolutionary project. Over the course of building AIs, the society at large is empowered, committed to change, and skilled in running society. Simultaneously, the credibility of a revolutionary vision is increased immensely by putting it into practice and by refining and improving it over time. It is also conceivable that factional splits between revolutionaries and reformers (and all the shades in between) could be reduced by having a common project that both find useful. Those forces that would be sent to suppress a revolutionary movement find themselves confronting people who have taken control over their own lives, rather than armed cadre attempting to impose a vision on the country, potentially obviating military conflict or at least reducing its severity. Successful dual power rebellions end with the acceptance of the new social forms by much of the populace and the realization by the old rulers that they are no longer capable of using their systems of force against the revolutionary movement. This can occur because noncooperation has crippled the old structures of power, because too few people remain loyal to the old rulers to enforce their will, or because the rulers themselves undergo an ideological conversion. At this point, there is not general confusion. The disappearance of old leaders and structures of power is accommodated by the expansion of the alternative system. The alleged "necessity" for a revolutionary vanguard to guide the revolutionary impulse is shown to have no basis: because the people have already learned how to govern their own affairs, they need no tutelage from above. The possibility of co-option is minimized: "When the people recognize their true power, it cannot be taken away by rhetoric or [...] imposition."
Dual power is a strategy, rather than an ideology, and it could plausibly be used to advance a variety of forms of social change. However, the advantages of the strategy make it most compatible with perspectives that emphasize the exercise of power at the community level, that seek to make the revolutionary movement accountable to the people, that see the capability to revision and transform society as common rather than rare, and that seek decentralized forms of power. Call this version of the strategy grassroots dual power, the bottom-up transformation and replacement of the mechanisms of society.
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
I don't know if I qualify as an anarchist, but I agree with the dual-power strategy referenced by Bill. I suppose that makes me an agorist. Anyway, I'll try to address Neil's question.
Let me first say that I don't put down the efforts of those working within the political system. There's room for all kinds: those running for office, those practicing civil disobedience, and agorists. Agorism (at least the kind I favor) is distinct from civil disobedience in that you do things because you actually want to do those things, rather than to draw attention to bad laws. And despite widespread belief to the contrary, I think agorism ultimately will have a political effect. As more and more people use gray/black markets, the white markets will be less and less respected.
The key to effective agorism is anonymity. I don't think Konkin emphasizes this point enough. The state's power to regulate your commerce comes from knowledge of who you are and where you live. What we need is an alternative infrastructure that lets people buy and sell things without identifying themselves. The infrastructure must enforce contracts fairly for both parties. Below I will outline such an infrastructure involving 6 special roles: ambassador, relayer, courier, broker, escrow agent and arbitrator. These 6 classes of people volunteer to provide certain supporting services at low cost, so that there can be a free and competitive market for everything else.
So my "game plan" goes like this: I'll present this proposal for an agorism infrastructure at Alternative Expo, maybe at an MVP meeting, or any place where closet agorists might be lurking. I'll try to find people who are interested in working on it. We'll meet separately and hash out the details. Then we'll try to find ambassadors to get it started.
Here's a summary of each role:
------
ambassador: This is one of three classes of people whose identities are known (the other two being relayer and courier). In fact, this person is trusted because of who he is. He's widely known and widely respected within libertarian circles. In our porcupine community, Varrin Swearingen and Irena Goddard might be good candidates. An ambassador's main job is to recommend brokers without identifying them. He chooses several people that he thinks would be good brokers, and gets them to set up email addresses that don't indicate who they are. The ambassador then posts the list of email addresses on his website. In essence, he is saying "Here are some email addresses. I'm not going to tell you the names of the people who own these email addresses, or where they live. But I assure you, I have known these people for years, and they are trustworthy folks. Any one of them will treat your contract with the utmost care and discretion." Actually, the lists from all the ambassadors are combined into one big list of brokers and randomly shuffled. Each ambassador posts the entire list on his website. He knows that his recommended brokers are on the list somewhere, but ideally he doesn't know which specific ones.
An ambassador also chooses relayers and couriers. As before, the lists from all the ambassadors are combined. The resulting list of relayers and couriers is not published, but made available to all the brokers.
The ambassador's job is a one-time job. Once he has chosen brokers, relayers and couriers, his job is done, and he does not charge for this service. Buyers and sellers have no need to contact the ambassador directly. They just pick a broker from the list of email addresses.
relayer: A relayer's job is to convey a package of unknown contents from one person to another, without knowing the identity of either one. In fact, the relayer takes active steps to avoid even accidentally learning any information about either party that might be used to identify them. The transfers are done by mail or by carrier (e.g., Fedex), depending on what level of service the parties want, and how much they're willing to spend. Typically the sender includes cash payment for the relayer service along with his package.
As an example of the economy route, the sender sends his envelope to the relayer by regular mail. The relayer presumes that any return address is bogus. The receiver sends a self-addressed stamped envelope to the relayer, with the address label covered by an opaque tape that peels off easily. The relayer transfers the item from the sender's envelope to the receiver's envelope, goes to a mailbox, averts his eyes, peels off the opaque tape, and drops the envelope into the mailbox.
courier: A courier does the same thing as a relayer, except that instead of relying on mail or Fedex, he physically meets with the sender to pick up the package, and then physically meets with the receiver to deliver it. This would be appropriate for packages larger than the mailing limit (13 ounces I believe). One person may volunteer to serve as either relayer or courier.
broker: The broker is the first point of contact for a buyer or seller. His job is to match up buyers with sellers, also recommending escrow agents, arbitrators, relayers and couriers as needed. The broker does not provide a catalog of items for sale. Instead, the buyer must tell the broker what he wants, and the broker will pass this information on to other brokers. Each broker notifies any sellers who have registered to hear about requests to buy that item.
Once the buyer and a prospective seller have reached an agreement on the terms of the contract, the buyer's broker and the seller's broker together choose an escrow agent and an arbitrator. Each of these should be somebody that one broker or the other knows personally. For a contract that requires a relayer or courier (as many will), the brokers choose someone from the list provided by the ambassadors.
escrow agent: An escrow agent holds money from the buyer (purchase price), and frequently money from the seller (performance bond). In some cases payment is made via a digital currency (e.g., pecunix). In other cases, payment is in cash or physical gold or silver, sent via relayer or courier. Also, when the contract calls for delivery of physical merchandise, that merchandise is typically sent (via relayer or courier) first to the escrow agent, who verifies that it is genuine via tests spelled out in the contract. Buyer and seller can witness the tests via webcam.
arbitrator: An arbitrator's job is to resolve any contract-related dispute between the buyer and the seller. He doesn't need to do anything unless and until a dispute arises. The arbitration fee is paid by the loser, so each party has an incentive to concede a valid claim, and not to make a frivolous claim. The escrow agent enforces the ruling of the arbitrator.
------
Keep in mind that the identities of ambassadors are known, and the identities of relayers and couriers are likely to become known over time. Hence, their roles are strictly limited so as to be as legal and politically correct as possible. If they are questioned by the authorities, they simply tell the truth, which is that they don't know very much. IANAL, but I think the role of ambassador is legally safe. The roles of relayer and courier are a bit iffy, but they can minimize their legal risk by not advertising their services to the general public, and only accepting jobs referred by brokers. Also, they should charge very reasonable fees.
Quote from: svillee on November 09, 2008, 06:49 PM NHFT
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
...
The key to effective agorism is anonymity. I don't think Konkin emphasizes this point enough. The state's power to regulate your commerce comes from knowledge of who you are and where you live. What we need is an alternative infrastructure that lets people buy and sell things without identifying themselves.
...
Sam had a book planned called Countereconomics; A Primer, but like a lot of projects go, this was in the works for a while along with a lot of other projects. He passed away before producing this book. :'(
The Manifesto contains a master strategy without a detailed implementation - I guess that's up to the people who want to be free now.
Steve, WOW! This is a masterfully-crafted set of tactics you've laid out! Gonna sleep on it and test it out mentally in a few case studies to see how this would work out.
Gee, I was kinda hoping he would answer. I guess inquisitions only go one way.
Quote from: David on November 08, 2008, 01:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
Everyone tells me to blow you guys off and frankly I can see why but i want to give you all one last chance. Answer the following question succinctly, clearly and precisely:
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
I want to make sure you understand the question:
Not your philosophy. Your GAME PLAN.
Not your goals. Your GAME PLAN.
Not what you'd like to see happen. Your GAME PLAN.
Not your revenge fantasies. Your GAME PLAN.
There are people out there who have game plans that aren't working. You're all taking cheap shots at them and acting superior because their game plans aren't working. But at least they're trying.
How about you guys put your money where your mouths are. DO YOU HAVE A GAME PLAN? Even a bad one?
You seriously think I am going to answer this, inquisition? the way YOU want me too? I am sorry that "your game plan" on election night didn't go as smoothly as you clearly wanted it too, judging by the way you come here to bash us, then bash your own politicos over on the NHLA forum, you know, the ones you called "nerds". (edited; it isn't just all us anarchists taking cheap shots and acting all superior)
Question- What is YOUR GAME PLAN when the gov't raises taxes, further reduces the right to defend yourself, controls via ownership the mainstream media than it already does, has Another war to stifle criticism, attempts to control the internet, and does so all 100% completely legally?
Are ya gonna shoot em'? Yeah right. the last thing we need is more shoot em' up fantasies and mental masturbation.
Are ya gonna out politic the professional politicians?
Or are you gonna start slowly challenging directly the system that allows all the crap in the first place. We are already doing that.
You see, you dyed in the wool politicos have no alternative in the worst case scenario except a blind faith in a massive revelution that never seems to come. Politics is never favorable for political minorities. Yet you can't seem to learn from virtually 200 years of political history.
Dr. King helped lead the largest and most successful pushback against the police state in American history, yet people tell me that I live in a fantasy world when I tell them nonviolent resistance can work. You have no alternative so you come to our forum and challenge us because you cannot conceive of a plan different than the one you have written in your playbook, you know, the plan that unfolded on election day,...or didn't.
Bumping svillee's post. Relevant to discussion we had today. Also relevant to person asking about Coherent Strategy.
I have a plan for you.
Spend all of your time, from now until the next election, getting anyone who is eligible to register to vote to actually register. Then when the election comes around WITHHOLD YOUR VOTE and your CONSENT! When the election results are tallied and it is confirmed that the majority of those eligible to vote have withheld their consent, send a QUO WARRANTO and a REMONSTRANCE to all governments claiming jurisdiction over you that they do not have legitimacy under their own definition of a DEMOCRACY and that you will no longer recognize their authority.
Yawn.
that doesn't sound like an anarchist's game plan
Stop that it's silly.
And now for something completely different.
Pardon me, but do you have any cheese for sale?
No, but I have some mustard.
Quote from: svillee on November 09, 2008, 06:49 PM NHFT
Quote from: rowland on November 05, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT
What is the anarchist game plan to get government off our backs?
I don't know if I qualify as an anarchist, but I agree with the dual-power strategy referenced by Bill. I suppose that makes me an agorist. Anyway, I'll try to address Neil's question.
Let me first say that I don't put down the efforts of those working within the political system. There's room for all kinds: those running for office, those practicing civil disobedience, and agorists. Agorism (at least the kind I favor) is distinct from civil disobedience in that you do things because you actually want to do those things, rather than to draw attention to bad laws. And despite widespread belief to the contrary, I think agorism ultimately will have a political effect. As more and more people use gray/black markets, the white markets will be less and less respected.
The key to effective agorism is anonymity. I don't think Konkin emphasizes this point enough. The state's power to regulate your commerce comes from knowledge of who you are and where you live. What we need is an alternative infrastructure that lets people buy and sell things without identifying themselves. The infrastructure must enforce contracts fairly for both parties. Below I will outline such an infrastructure involving 6 special roles: ambassador, relayer, courier, broker, escrow agent and arbitrator. These 6 classes of people volunteer to provide certain supporting services at low cost, so that there can be a free and competitive market for everything else.
So my "game plan" goes like this: I'll present this proposal for an agorism infrastructure at Alternative Expo, maybe at an MVP meeting, or any place where closet agorists might be lurking. I'll try to find people who are interested in working on it. We'll meet separately and hash out the details. Then we'll try to find ambassadors to get it started.
Here's a summary of each role:
------
ambassador: This is one of three classes of people whose identities are known (the other two being relayer and courier). In fact, this person is trusted because of who he is. He's widely known and widely respected within libertarian circles. In our porcupine community, Varrin Swearingen and Irena Goddard might be good candidates. An ambassador's main job is to recommend brokers without identifying them. He chooses several people that he thinks would be good brokers, and gets them to set up email addresses that don't indicate who they are. The ambassador then posts the list of email addresses on his website. In essence, he is saying "Here are some email addresses. I'm not going to tell you the names of the people who own these email addresses, or where they live. But I assure you, I have known these people for years, and they are trustworthy folks. Any one of them will treat your contract with the utmost care and discretion." Actually, the lists from all the ambassadors are combined into one big list of brokers and randomly shuffled. Each ambassador posts the entire list on his website. He knows that his recommended brokers are on the list somewhere, but ideally he doesn't know which specific ones.
An ambassador also chooses relayers and couriers. As before, the lists from all the ambassadors are combined. The resulting list of relayers and couriers is not published, but made available to all the brokers.
The ambassador's job is a one-time job. Once he has chosen brokers, relayers and couriers, his job is done, and he does not charge for this service. Buyers and sellers have no need to contact the ambassador directly. They just pick a broker from the list of email addresses.
relayer: A relayer's job is to convey a package of unknown contents from one person to another, without knowing the identity of either one. In fact, the relayer takes active steps to avoid even accidentally learning any information about either party that might be used to identify them. The transfers are done by mail or by carrier (e.g., Fedex), depending on what level of service the parties want, and how much they're willing to spend. Typically the sender includes cash payment for the relayer service along with his package.
As an example of the economy route, the sender sends his envelope to the relayer by regular mail. The relayer presumes that any return address is bogus. The receiver sends a self-addressed stamped envelope to the relayer, with the address label covered by an opaque tape that peels off easily. The relayer transfers the item from the sender's envelope to the receiver's envelope, goes to a mailbox, averts his eyes, peels off the opaque tape, and drops the envelope into the mailbox.
courier: A courier does the same thing as a relayer, except that instead of relying on mail or Fedex, he physically meets with the sender to pick up the package, and then physically meets with the receiver to deliver it. This would be appropriate for packages larger than the mailing limit (13 ounces I believe). One person may volunteer to serve as either relayer or courier.
broker: The broker is the first point of contact for a buyer or seller. His job is to match up buyers with sellers, also recommending escrow agents, arbitrators, relayers and couriers as needed. The broker does not provide a catalog of items for sale. Instead, the buyer must tell the broker what he wants, and the broker will pass this information on to other brokers. Each broker notifies any sellers who have registered to hear about requests to buy that item.
Once the buyer and a prospective seller have reached an agreement on the terms of the contract, the buyer's broker and the seller's broker together choose an escrow agent and an arbitrator. Each of these should be somebody that one broker or the other knows personally. For a contract that requires a relayer or courier (as many will), the brokers choose someone from the list provided by the ambassadors.
escrow agent: An escrow agent holds money from the buyer (purchase price), and frequently money from the seller (performance bond). In some cases payment is made via a digital currency (e.g., pecunix). In other cases, payment is in cash or physical gold or silver, sent via relayer or courier. Also, when the contract calls for delivery of physical merchandise, that merchandise is typically sent (via relayer or courier) first to the escrow agent, who verifies that it is genuine via tests spelled out in the contract. Buyer and seller can witness the tests via webcam.
arbitrator: An arbitrator's job is to resolve any contract-related dispute between the buyer and the seller. He doesn't need to do anything unless and until a dispute arises. The arbitration fee is paid by the loser, so each party has an incentive to concede a valid claim, and not to make a frivolous claim. The escrow agent enforces the ruling of the arbitrator.
------
Keep in mind that the identities of ambassadors are known, and the identities of relayers and couriers are likely to become known over time. Hence, their roles are strictly limited so as to be as legal and politically correct as possible. If they are questioned by the authorities, they simply tell the truth, which is that they don't know very much. IANAL, but I think the role of ambassador is legally safe. The roles of relayer and courier are a bit iffy, but they can minimize their legal risk by not advertising their services to the general public, and only accepting jobs referred by brokers. Also, they should charge very reasonable fees.
This reminds me of the hawala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala) system - extended to include all products rather than just money.
Conspiracy is the charge...
I deal with people I trust personally... trying to structure something on a larger scale is where the danger lies. In fact "lack of trust" is the main reason I have pulled back from participating on a wider scale. I have lost faith in many players judgement regarding "new players".
"Organizing" the commerce/agorism seems a bit weird to me. Good luck getting the prominent players in the FSP to take any of the risks associated. Black market means making deals over a handshake and putting your safety in another persons hands... I don't give that away easily.
The game plan yesterday was Settlers of Catan. Luthor won. Beginner's luck. Pfft. :)
My game plan is to have fun, while demonstrating how awful and unnecessary the government is.
I don't think bureaucratic meetings or lining up like cattle to be out voted by the american Taliban is fun or effective.
If you think voting is fun and effective, then good luck with that. It has not worked in 200 years. I don't think it will work the next time you try it or ever. It's a plan that is defective by design.
If you think voting will be effective, you need to answer why it will work this time, when it has not work for the last 200+ times it's been done.
If voting accomplished any serious change, it would be outlawed.
psssssssssssssssst
Hey come here I will share a secret with ya.
While were changing the world slow, one ready mind at a time.
The ONLY way to get it peacefully done.
This "game plan" makes sure that while we do
the world does not change us.
That we don't become apathetic and give up.
That we don't blame our friends when politicians
do what politicians do.
That we don't become angry, bitter and violent.
This is going to be a long haul, and while working
for liberty in a voluntarily fashion we are most importantly
SAVING OURSELVES.
So that liberty can be saved.
Try it ya might like it.
patk must be on vacation, since he has time for clear thinking and typing :D
Quote from: thinkliberty on January 10, 2010, 10:01 AM NHFTIf you think voting will be effective, you need to answer why it will work this time, when it has not work for the last 200+ times it's been done.
As with all actions, it comes down to intent.
if your intent is to vote for someone who will save you, you're probably barking up the wrong tree. And, if you're voting
for someone, then your intent is to consent to the system.
However, if you cast votes "tactically," using their system against itself, as part of an overall plan that includes more than just voting, it can be effective. The majority of the public lives within that system, and understands the world through its symbols. The outcome of an election communicates information in a language that they understand.
Plus, there's the flip side of things, where getting some total nutjob elected can help to shake the public's faith in the system. Because Statism is an artificial system of control, and subject to its own irrational rules, its position is quite precarious, in the grand scheme of things. Statists have to be careful not to push too far, too fast, or the veneer they hold up to blind the public (including themselves) will wear thin and allow reality to show through. If some nut who
will push too far, too fast gets in, it can wake some folks up to reality. Bush and Obama have been doing an excellent job of it.
The key factor is that anarchists don't exist within that system; we are not bound by its rules and ways of perceiving the world. That allows us to use it against itself. We can cause it to make a mockery of itself, and occasionally do such a good job of it that someone wakes up. It doesn't take a large percentage of the population to effect change, unless one insists on a war, which I don't. When using tactics like this, it only takes a few percent just saying "no" to cause their system to topple under its own power. Another ten or fifteen years, and enough should be doing that, that Statism becomes little more than a bad joke.
Joe