http://www.kitco.com/
Now that's what I'M talking about.? 8)
So how bad do you think the economy is going to get in the next few months?
I'd rather have a full tank of fuel oil than an oz of au, right now! ;)
Except that if the dollar collapses (as one day it must and the fuel problems are doing anything to help) ... your au could end up buying a hell of a lot of petrol.
I own a vehicle that gets infinity miles per gallon.
Caleb
And Danforth, if you'd rather have the full tank of fuel than the AU ...
Let's trade.
You give me an ounce of .999 fine gold ...
And I'll give you a full tank of gas.
;D
Caleb
I was referring to my 275 in the basement. The tank in my truck fills for about 5 LS's.
Au: $474.00/oz 8)
Ag: $7.69/oz 8)
Wall Street Wakes Up
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Schiff/oct072005.html
By Peter Schiff
October 7, 2005
In a commentary last week, I compared the recent surge in gold prices to the death of a canary in a coal mine. This week it appears that a few of Wall Street?s miners have reluctantly gotten a whiff of the stench and are now scrambling for the exits. In fact, the first week of the fourth quarter has wiped out all of the gains of the proceeding quarter.
It started on Monday when the Institute of Supply Management (ISM) released the largest monthly increases in prices paid in fifteen years, and the largest back-to-back monthly gain in over fifty years. In the days that followed, numerous companies announced price increases and several Fed officials chimed in with comments acknowledging what should have already been obvious to all; that inflation is not as well contained as they had previously thought.
Making matters worse, on Thursday several European central bankers made similarly hawkish statements, raising the specter of rising interest rates on the other side of the Atlantic as well. Because the U.S. is the world?s largest debtor nation, and therefore a net payer of interest, its economy is more vulnerable to rising interest rates then the economies of creditor nations, which are net earners of interest payments.
In addition to generally weak economic data, such as Wednesday?s ISM data, Thursday?s rising jobless claims, today?s employment report (though the 35,000 decline in September non-farm payrolls was fewer than what had been forecast,) steadily rising interest rates (ten-year treasury yields hit a six month high,) disappointing earnings announcements, a declining dollar and gold prices climbing to yet another eighteen-year high, the week also contained compelling evidence that the air is about to come out of the real estate bubble. Not only did the New York Times report on record insider selling by homebuilders (the housing bubble?s equivalent of internet incubators,) but it also reported that apartment prices in Manhattan declined by 13% in the third quarter, with prices of high-end apartments collapsing a staggering 36%.
On the denial front, most still maintain that when the real estate bubble busts house prices will not decline in the same manner stock prices did when that bubble burst. If such assertions prove correct, it will most likely be because real estate prices collapse even more. The main argument advanced by those so confident that real estate prices will hold steady is that people live in their houses, and will therefore not dump them as investors did stocks. Aside from the fact that in cases of ?investment? and vacation properties homeowners do not reside in their properties, only a small fraction of homeowners need sell to cause prices to collapse. As home values are a function of comparable sales, even if most ride out the decline, those few who do not, in many cases due to foreclosure or other forced sales, will determine prices for the entire market. It also seems the height of folly to deny that prices that have doubled in less than three years could not drop just as significantly in half the time.
Also, when the stock market bubble burst, most investors did not sell either. They simply refused to open their statements, and ?held for the long term.? Yet prices collapse anyway because those few who did sell did so to an every diminishing pool of buyers. While a small number of dot-com ?investors? were able to get out with profits, far fewer homeowners will be so lucky. That is because in the real estate market there are no bids for sellers to hit, and stock market speculators did not have to make mortgage payments on their portfolios.
As Wall Street comes to grips with the realities of higher inflation, and the recessionary implications of the bursting of the real estate bubble, the stagflation scenario is gaining creditability. As all of this unfolds in the ominous month of October, a stock market crash not only seems possible, but a fitting end to Greenspan?s tenure, which may well end on the same note it rang in on. Perhaps the Chairman will not make it out of Dodge after all.
It would be nice for RE prices to come back to earth.
If you are moving to NH .... sell your house and rent in NH. :)
Au: $474.90/oz
Today's high: $479.60. :o
Ag: $7.77/oz
8)
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 10, 2005, 09:46 PM NHFT
Au:? $474.90/oz
? Today's high:? $479.60.? ?:o
Ag:? $7.77/oz
8)
Are you investing in gold or something?
Quote from: TN-FSP on October 12, 2005, 06:12 PM NHFT
Are you investing in gold or something?
That's the sound of the US dollar collapsing. :o
Who doesn't own gold and silver bullion? ???
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 12, 2005, 06:36 PM NHFT
Quote from: TN-FSP on October 12, 2005, 06:12 PM NHFT
Are you investing in gold or something?
That's the sound of the US dollar collapsing. :o
Who doesn't own gold and silver bullion?? ???
Me. I also don't plan on getting any. I don't plan on putting solar collectors on my house or setting my car to run off of cooking oil. I am not interested in farming or a earthship either :)
Bullets, Booze, Batteries and Ciggerittes will be a good means of exchange if there is an "economic collapse".
Quote from: TN-FSP on October 12, 2005, 07:14 PM NHFT
Me. I also don't plan on getting any. I don't plan on putting solar collectors on my house or setting my car to run off of cooking oil. I am not interested in farming or a earthship either :)
I don't envy your chances, should the global shit hit the fan.
Quote from: Incrementalist on October 12, 2005, 09:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: TN-FSP on October 12, 2005, 07:14 PM NHFT
Me.? I also don't plan on getting any.? I don't plan on putting solar collectors on my house or setting my car to run off of cooking oil.? I am not interested in farming or a earthship either? :)?
I don't envy your chances, should the global shit hit the fan.
I think I'll make due. Heck, even at Porcfest, I found myself sleeping outside. I'd be fine sleeping on the ground and showering at truck stops if I needed to.
When the shit hits the fan, showers will loose their importance and stop being available. The problem will be aquiring and protecting food.
I plan on putting solar panels just cuz they are cool.
But I thought many of you are 'anarcho-capitalists' doesn't that mean you believe the free market will solve all the problems?
I didn't know that most of you had 'bunker' ideas. If so.. you had better move north not in the suburbs.
TNFSP you can crash at my place... we have plenty of food. ;D
We are the free market .... there is noone else to magically fix things. I don't have a bunker. My interest in burning used vegetable oil is to save real money now, not because of any collapse.
I would use solar panels if they made sense for us. I like the idea of those earthships, because they would save money and need less energy to be piped into your home.
When we see things like gold going up .... we see inflation.
It's not about doomsday preparation. It's about minimizing risk, avoiding inflation, and protecting my family from the unpredictability of mother nature, the US bubble economy, and the government.
It sounds like a good time to collect books on gardening, forraging, engine repair, and etc. Knowledge when applied properly is worth many times that of gold.
Oh, don't forget a good set of tools[wrench, saws(hack and hatchet types), hammer(claw), screw drivers(flat and phillips), pliers(especially vise grip types and needle nose), and etc(hand drills and so on)] Power tools are okay, but require electricity, hand tools are the best way to do. :)
-- Bridget
I plan on giving away copper jacketed lead. Anybody who steps out of line can get it.
Quote from: sung on October 13, 2005, 01:09 PM NHFT
I hear about buying gold when "TSHTF", but you can't eat precious metals. Or keep warm with them. Sure, you might be able to buy something with them NOW, but I'd rather have a few cases of those freeze dried meals and usefull supplies if something happens.
I can't remember the exact title, but I heard of an herbal medicine guidebook that was published in the 1960s. That would be quite useful in such situations, especially if you have the herbs on hand. :-)
-- Bridget
Books on eating in the wild by Euell Gibbons would be handy, although I had a bad experience with Arrow root once.
You don't have to choose between gold/silver and survival supplies. ?You can buy both. ?We've already gained a significant benefit from owning bullion as the US dollar is dying.
Supplies are my new priority. ?But what to buy?
How do we keep warm in the winter without a fireplace if the power goes out? ? ??? ?Our heater and oil will be worthless. ?We also have no food, water, tools, or anything else for an emergency. ?:o
Do you own some heavy duty sleeping bags?
Those modern kerosene spaceheaters that extinguish themselves if bumped work well and Kero is very safe to store.
Hmmm... a diesel space heater.
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/Paraffin_Diesel_Space_Heaters.html
How can a diesel space heater be "clean burning"? ???
Quote from: katdillon on October 13, 2005, 03:30 PM NHFT
Do you own some heavy duty sleeping bags?
I own one the goes to 45 and two that go to 30 degrees (which may be zipped together). ?However, I plan on getting a couple winter sleeping bags when I move to NH. ?You can get -5 bags for less than $100.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 13, 2005, 03:24 PM NHFT
You don't have to choose between gold/silver and survival supplies. ?You can buy both. ?We've already gained a significant benefit from owning bullion as the US dollar is dying.
Supplies are my new priority. ?But what to buy?
How do we keep warm in the winter without a fireplace if the power goes out? ? ??? ?Our heater and oil will be worthless. ?We also have no food, water, tools, or anything else for an emergency. ?:o
You lived in Utah right?
Be like the mormons.
72 hour kit ( which every house should have)
1 year supply of food.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 13, 2005, 03:51 PM NHFT
Hmmm... a diesel space heater.
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/Paraffin_Diesel_Space_Heaters.html
How can a diesel space heater be "clean burning"?? ???
I was thinking of a free standing kero space heater
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_SessionID=@@@@0899549197.1129238624@@@@&BV_EngineID=cchfaddfmdjjhjjcegecegjdghldghf.0&vertical=SEARS&sid=I0093600050004500085&pid=03275105000
They don't smell bad. We used to take ours outside when starting it and when turning it off, which is when it smells the most.
Google: Kerosene space heaters and you will see some that are vented, also.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 13, 2005, 03:51 PM NHFT
Hmmm... a diesel space heater.
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/Paraffin_Diesel_Space_Heaters.html
How can a diesel space heater be "clean burning"? ???
Diesel/kerosene/fuel oil/jet fuel are all minor variations of the same thing. Cleanliness of the burn depends on complete combustion.
And "Paraffin" is British for "kerosene". It's not paraffin wax, like we use the term.
Kevin
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 13, 2005, 03:19 PM NHFT
Books on eating in the wild by Euell Gibbons would be handy, although I had a bad experience with Arrow root once.
When in doubt, if it tastes funny or bitter then it probably isn't safe to eat.
-- Bridget
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Schiff/oct132005.html
Twice during the last century the Dow lost over 90% of its value relative to gold. If such declines could occur in an America with a strong industrial economy, ample domestic savings, and a favorable balance of payments, imagine what could happen today.
Those guys were living on margin during those times also.
Quote from: russellkanning on October 14, 2005, 02:17 PM NHFT
Those guys were living on margin during those times also.
At least they had a strong, productive economy that added value to the rest of the world.
Our economy is a major drain on the rest of the world. If a depression happens now, it could spell the end for this government.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 14, 2005, 05:01 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on October 14, 2005, 02:17 PM NHFT
Those guys were living on margin during those times also.
At least they had a strong, productive economy that added value to the rest of the world.
Our economy is a major drain on the rest of the world.? If a depression happens now, it could spell the end for this government.
I wouldn't say that we are a drain on the world economy. If we go down the go down with us.
I agree with dreepa. There is plenty of reality to productivity here.
Quote from: Dreepa on October 13, 2005, 03:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 13, 2005, 03:24 PM NHFT
You don't have to choose between gold/silver and survival supplies. You can buy both. We've already gained a significant benefit from owning bullion as the US dollar is dying.
Supplies are my new priority. But what to buy?
How do we keep warm in the winter without a fireplace if the power goes out? ??? Our heater and oil will be worthless. We also have no food, water, tools, or anything else for an emergency. :o
You lived in Utah right?
Be like the mormons.
72 hour kit ( which every house should have)
1 year supply of food.
Do you have any information on this? What exactly IS a 72 hour kit? And where do you store food? The only place I store food for a year is in my deep freeze -- and that requires electricity.
Tracy
Quote from: russellkanning on October 15, 2005, 08:14 PM NHFT
I agree with dreepa. There is plenty of reality to productivity here.
Not really. You see, people need things in life. Because of our scam currency, we are draining the resources of the rest of the world for our own benefit. Americans consume everything and produce almost nothing. Without this scam fiat currency, our "house of cards" economy of ultra-consumption will cease to exist.
Our country will enter a severe depression until Americans learn to live indendently, live within their means, and when our manufacturing base returns, which could be many years. The government will also need to leave us alone for our manufacturing base to return, and existing economic restrictions could result in a revolution as these countless regulations grind our collapsed economy to a complete halt.
It will be very ugly, but at least it will reflect true economic reality once the scam dollar collapses.
As far as I'm concerned, it's uglier now in this country than it could ever be.
Quote from: tracysaboe on October 16, 2005, 01:17 AM NHFT
Do you have any information on this? What exactly IS a 72 hour kit? And where do you store food? The only place I store food for a year is in my deep freeze -- and that requires electricity.
Canned food in people's basements. That's all I noticed while living there.
What kind of room is available under your bed; back of your closet(s); behind your furniture/bookshelves;etc.
My grandparents had a pantry where the Mason jars of home grown and canned food was stored.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 14, 2005, 05:01 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on October 14, 2005, 02:17 PM NHFT
Those guys were living on margin during those times also.
At least they had a strong, productive economy that added value to the rest of the world.
Our economy is a major drain on the rest of the world.? If a depression happens now, it could spell the end for this government.
And, the downside is?
Quote from: patmccotter on October 16, 2005, 05:30 AM NHFT
What kind of room is available under your bed; back of your closet(s); behind your furniture/bookshelves;etc.
My grandparents had a pantry where the Mason jars of home grown and canned food was stored.
There is pre-packaged food available, popular before the millenium scare and MRE's that I know nothing about.
A good friend of mine, now deceased, tried to keep a 5 year supply of food. He formed a buying club to buy wholsale lots of organic food. He bought bags of Rice, soy beans, wheat berries, oats and other stuff. He poured it into 1 gallon glass jugs. He had a couple of bottles of Carbon Dioxide with a tube attached. He would insert the tube into the jug to the bottom and introduce the gas until it came out of the top and, then seal the jug.
I've forgotten my definitions of aerobic and anerobic, but, one means to live in oxygen and the other to live without oxygen.
The above protects agaings oxygen living bugs. It worked pretty well, but, occaisional failures occurred. Rotation is important. You want to eat the older stuff and replace it. Some people use dry ice instead of the gas.
The state of the art of preserving food may have improved since I learned this.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 16, 2005, 08:56 AM NHFT
I've forgotten my definitions of aerobic and anerobic, but, one means to live in oxygen and the other to live without oxygen.
The above protects agaings oxygen living bugs. It worked pretty well, but, occaisional failures occurred. Rotation is important. You want to eat the older stuff and replace it. Some people use dry ice instead of the gas.
The state of the art of preserving food may have improved since I learned this.
Aerobic and Anaerobic
Aerobic- with Oxygen
Anaerobic- without Oxygen
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 16, 2005, 08:40 AM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 14, 2005, 05:01 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on October 14, 2005, 02:17 PM NHFT
Those guys were living on margin during those times also.
At least they had a strong, productive economy that added value to the rest of the world.
Our economy is a major drain on the rest of the world.? If a depression happens now, it could spell the end for this government.
And, the downside is?
;D
It's been my belief for the past few years that eventually the Federal government will implode and states or groups of states will secede.
I hope it's peacefull. And I hope it comes sooner then later.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on October 17, 2005, 06:34 PM NHFT
It's been my belief for the past few years that eventually the Federal government will implode and states or groups of states will secede.
I hope it's peacefull. And I hope it comes sooner then later.
Tracy
Tracy, I agree. But things will get worse before they get better, unfortunately.
Unfortuately :-\
Tracy
Think of worsening economic conditions in a positive light instead.
The faster and sooner the correction, the less painful it will be. The longer it drags out, with the government kicking and screaming while trying to stop it from happening, the worse it will be.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 26, 2005, 09:53 PM NHFT
Think of worsening economic conditions in a positive light instead.
The faster and sooner the correction, the less painful it will be.? The longer it drags out, with the government kicking and screaming while trying to stop it from happening, the worse it will be.
except that remember the last long correction ( Great Depression)... we got all sorts of new Govt programs that never went away.
TVA, SS, etc etc etc
Quote from: Dreepa on October 27, 2005, 07:56 AM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 26, 2005, 09:53 PM NHFT
Think of worsening economic conditions in a positive light instead.
The faster and sooner the correction, the less painful it will be.? The longer it drags out, with the government kicking and screaming while trying to stop it from happening, the worse it will be.
except that remember the last long correction ( Great Depression)... we got all sorts of new Govt programs that never went away.
TVA, SS, etc etc etc
Because people allowed them. Also, before the depression started, the Gov didn't have much debt. Can you imagine them paying the National Debt interest while still increasing spending as revenues from taxation plummet? If they don't pay interest on the National Debt, the world economic system will collapse, since it highly values, at present, US debt instruments. The US economic situation is lacking in alternatives. We must be ready for action when this happens.
"Because people allowed them..."
Bread and Circuses, Alan. Half of everyone will always vote for them. That's why a lot of libertarians aren't democrats. Democracy often becomes tyrrany of the dumber half.
Quote from: Eli on October 27, 2005, 08:19 AM NHFT
"Because people allowed them..."
Bread and Circuses, Alan.? Half of everyone will always vote for them.? That's why a lot of libertarians aren't democrats.? Democracy often becomes tyrrany of the dumber half.
Too true. :'(
Quote from: tracysaboe on October 16, 2005, 01:17 AM NHFT
Do you have any information on this? What exactly IS a 72 hour kit? And where do you store food? The only place I store food for a year is in my deep freeze -- and that requires electricity.
Tracy
A 72 hour kit is the things that you would need to live for 72 hours. It should be in a backpack orsomething that you could carry if you had to. We have food for 4 days for 4 people, blankets, change of clothes, candles, matches, flashlight, first aid kit etc.
My wife is going to be helping people prepare them for her church. I can pass on any pamphlets etc.
Think of all the people in LA and FLA who could have used these kits. They are easy to make. Also in NH there may be some days when you can get to the store because of snow etc. I was always amazed that people in CA didn't have this kits... EARTHQUAKES happen.
Mormons also thing people should have longterm storage of food. Not a bad idea... but don't forget to rotate your stock.
Quote from: Eli on October 27, 2005, 08:19 AM NHFT
"Because people allowed them..."
Bread and Circuses, Alan.? Half of everyone will always vote for them.? That's why a lot of libertarians aren't democrats.? Democracy often becomes tyrrany of the dumber half.
Often?
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 27, 2005, 10:06 AM NHFT
Quote from: Eli on October 27, 2005, 08:19 AM NHFT
"Because people allowed them..."
Bread and Circuses, Alan.? Half of everyone will always vote for them.? That's why a lot of libertarians aren't democrats.? Democracy often becomes tyrrany of the dumber half.
Often?
Point taken, Lloyd. ;)
For years, I have thumbed ?my nose at the french (Oh No!) product: Parmalat, you know, milk that lives on the shelf 'till you open it.
A friend put it in my coffee a month or so ago and the coffee tasted just fine. ?I have not tried it with cookies yet, as I don't drink much milk straight these days, but, it would make a good addition to food storage without refridgeration, and, when you need some milk and don't just don't feel like going to the store.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 27, 2005, 10:14 AM NHFT
For years, I have thumbed ?my nose at the french (Oh No!) product: Parmalat, you know, milk that lives on the shelf 'till you open it.
A friend put it in my coffee a month or so ago and the coffee tasted just fine. ?I have not tried it with cookies yet, as I don't drink much milk straight these days, but, it would make a good addition to food storage without refridgeration, and, when you need some milk and don't just don't feel like going to the store.
Yeah when I lived in Russia we used to drink a German version of it. Because the Russia milk was pretty nasty.
We have some in our house.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 27, 2005, 10:06 AM NHFT
Quote from: Eli on October 27, 2005, 08:19 AM NHFT
"Because people allowed them..."
Bread and Circuses, Alan.? Half of everyone will always vote for them.? That's why a lot of libertarians aren't democrats.? Democracy often becomes tyrrany of the dumber half.
Often?
I'm agnostic on everything. I hold out the possibility that it might not work that way. Somehwere. Somewhen.
We'll find a new way of living...we'll find a new way of forgiving....
Kat, you are a bad woman. No broadway!
Tracey, someone posted this site on the avian flu discussion, http://beprepared.com/Default.asp? , they have 'years supplies' and seventy two hour kits. Prices all seam reasonable.
Woo, the prices on the spices are great!
Herbs and spices makes me feel nices.
Well, weed prices are coming back down.....
http://hightimes.com/ht/home/content.php?page=thmq_0905
(http://hightimes.com/images_ht/ht_static/thmqchart.jpg)
CURRENT US PRICE INDEX: $332 (last month: $370)
CURRENT KIND INDEX ($350 + PER OZ.): $469 ($446)
CURRENT MIDS INDEX ($150-349 PER OZ.): $273 ($255)
CURENT SCHWAG INDEX ($1-149 PER OZ.): $87 ($84)
Nah, just makes the brownies taste funny.
Quote from: katdillon on October 27, 2005, 01:23 PM NHFT
Nah, just makes the brownies taste funny.
(http://www.girlscouts.org/images/program/gs_central/what_is_gs/brownie_friendship_circle.jpg)
Holy fuck, you are sick!!!!
Long ago, they created a long-term method of preserving the nutrients in milk.
It's called cheese. ;)
Allow me to recommend this book:
Making Cheese, Butter, and Yogurt
by Phyllis Hobson
(A Storey Country Wisdom Bulletin)
I love these little books. 8)
http://www.storey.com/
Root Cellaring by Mike and Nancy Bubel
Making & Using Dried Foods by Phyllis Hobson
Home Cheese Making by Ricki Carroll
Keeping the Harvest by Nancy Chioffi, Gretchen Mead
Big Book of Preserving the Harvest, The by Carol W. Costenbader
A Guide to Canning, Freezing, Curing, and Smoking Meat, Fish, and Game by Wilbur Eastman
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 27, 2005, 01:49 PM NHFT
Long ago, they created a long-term method of preserving the nutrients in milk.
It's called cheese. ;)
gag.... :-X
http://www.pcrm.org/health/Info_on_Veg_Diets/milk.html
Quote
Milk: No Longer Recommended or Required
A substantial body of scientific evidence raises concerns about health risks from cow?s milk products. These problems relate to the proteins, sugar, fat, and contaminants in dairy products, and the inadequacy of whole cow?s milk for infant nutrition.
Health risks from milk consumption are greatest for infants less than one year of age, in whom whole cow?s milk can contribute to deficiencies in several nutrients, including iron, essential fatty acids, and vitamin E. The American Academy of Pediatrics1 recommends that infants under one year of age not receive whole cow?s milk.
Cow?s milk products are very low in iron,2 containing only about one-tenth of a milligram (mg) per eight-ounce serving. To get the U.S. Recommended Daily Allowance of 15 mg of iron, an infant would have to drink more than 31 quarts of milk per day. Milk can also cause blood loss from the intestinal tract, which, over time, reduces the body?s iron stores. Researchers speculate that the blood loss may be a reaction to proteins present in milk.3 Pasteurization does not eliminate the problem. Researchers from the University of Iowa recently wrote in the Journal of Pediatrics that ?in a large proportion of infants, the feeding of cow milk causes a substantial increase of hemoglobin loss. Some infants are exquisitely sensitive to cow milk and can lose large quantities of blood.?3
Although concerns are greatest for children in the first year of life, there are also health concerns related to milk use among older children and some problems associated with cow?s milk formulas.
Milk Proteins and Diabetes
Several reports link insulin-dependent diabetes to a specific protein in dairy products. This form of diabetes usually begins in childhood. It is a leading cause of blindness and contributes to heart disease, kidney damage, and amputations due to poor circulation.
Studies of various countries show a strong correlation between the use of dairy products and the incidence of diabetes.4 A recent report in the New England Journal of Medicine5 adds substantial support to the long-standing theory that cow?s milk proteins stimulate the production of the antibodies6 which, in turn, destroy the insulin-producing pancreatic cells.7 In the new report, researchers from Canada and Finland found high levels of antibodies to a specific portion of a cow?s milk protein, called bovine serum albumin, in 100 percent of the 142 diabetic children they studied at the time the disease was diagnosed. Non-diabetic children may have such antibodies, but only at much lower levels. Evidence suggests that the combination of a genetic predisposition and cow?s milk exposure is the major cause of the childhood form of diabetes, although there is no way of determining which children are genetically predisposed. Antibodies can apparently form in response to even small quantities of milk products, including infant formulas.
Pancreatic cell destruction occurs gradually, especially after infections, which cause the cellular proteins to be exposed to the damage of antibodies. Diabetes becomes evident when 80 to 90 percent of the insulin-producing beta cells are destroyed.
Milk proteins are also among the most common causes of food allergies. Often, the cause of the symptoms is not recognized for substantial periods of time.
Milk Sugar and Health Problems
Many people, particularly those of Asian and African ancestry, are unable to digest the milk sugar, lactose. The result is diarrhea and gas. For those who can digest lactose, its breakdown products are two simple sugars: glucose and galactose. Galactose has been implicated in ovarian cancer8 and cataracts.9,10 Nursing children have active enzymes that break down galactose. As we age, many of us lose much of this capacity.
Fat Content
Whole milk, cheese, cream, butter, ice cream, sour cream, and all other dairy products aside from skim and non-fat products contain significant amounts of saturated fat, as well as cholesterol, contributing to cardiovascular diseases and certain forms of cancer. The early changes of heart disease have been documented in American teenagers. While children do need a certain amount of fat in their diets, there is no nutritional requirement for cow?s milk fat. On the contrary, cow?s milk is high in saturated fats, but low in the essential fatty acid linoleic acid.
Contaminants
Milk contains frequent contaminants, from pesticides to drugs. About one-third of milk products have been shown to be contaminated with antibiotic traces. The vitamin D content of milk has been poorly regulated. Recent testing of 42 milk samples found only 12 percent within the expected range of vitamin D content. Testing of ten samples of infant formula revealed seven with more than twice the vitamin D content reported on the label, one of which had more than four times the label amount.11 Vitamin D is toxic in overdose.12
Osteoporosis
Dairy products offer a false sense of security to those concerned about osteoporosis. In countries where dairy products are not generally consumed, there is actually less osteoporosis than in the United States. Studies have shown little effect of dairy products on osteoporosis.13 The Harvard Nurses? Health Study followed 78,000 women for a 12-year period and found that milk did not protect against bone fractures. Indeed, those who drank three glasses of milk per day had more fractures than those who rarely drank milk.14
There are many good sources of calcium. Kale, broccoli, and other green leafy vegetables contain calcium that is readily absorbed by the body. A recent report in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that calcium absorbability was actually higher for kale than for milk, and concluded that ?greens such as kale can be considered to be at least as good as milk in terms of their calcium absorbability.?15 Beans are also rich in calcium. Fortified orange juice supplies large amounts of calcium in a palatable form.16
Calcium is only one of many factors that affect the bone. Other factors include hormones, phosphorus, boron, exercise, smoking, alcohol, and drugs.17-20 Protein is also important in calcium balance. Diets that are rich in protein, particularly animal proteins, encourage calcium loss.21-23
Recommendations
There is no nutritional requirement for dairy products, and there are serious problems that can result from the proteins, sugar, fat, and contaminants in milk products. Therefore, the following recommendations are offered:
1. Breast-feeding is the preferred method of infant feeding. As recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics, whole cow?s milk should not be given to infants under one year of age.
2. Parents should be alerted to the potential risks to their children from cow?s milk use.
3. Cow?s milk should not be required or recommended in government guidelines.
4. Government programs, such as school lunch programs and the WIC program, should be consistent with these recommendations.
References
1. American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Nutrition. The use of whole cow?s milk in infancy. Pediatrics 1992;89:1105-9.
2. Pennington JAT, Church HN. Food values of portions commonly used. New York, Harper and Row, 1989.
3. Ziegler EE, Fomon SJ, Nelson SE, et al. Cow milk feeding in infancy: further observations on blood loss from the gastrointestinal tract. J Pediatr 1990;116:11-8.
4. Scott FW. Cow milk and insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus: is there a relationship? Am J CLin Nutr 1990;51:489-91.
5. Karjalainen J, Martin JM, Knip M, et al. A bovine albumin peptide as a possible trigger of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. N Engl J Med 1992;327:302-7.
6. Roberton DM, Paganelli R, Dinwiddie R, Levinsky RJ. Milk antigen absorption in the preterm and term neonate. Arch Dis Child 1982;57:369-72.
7. Bruining GJ, Molenaar J, Tuk CW, Lindeman J, Bruining HA, Marner B. Clinical time-course and characteristics of islet cell cytoplasmatic antibodies in childhood diabetes. Diabetologia 1984;26:24-29.
8. Cramer DW, Willett WC, Bell DA, et al. Galactose consumption and metabolism in relation to the risk of ovarian cancer. Lancet 1989;2:66-71.
9. Simoons FJ. A geographic approach to senile cataracts: possible links with milk consumption, lactase activity, and galactose metabolism. Digestive Diseases and Sciences 1982;27:257-64.
10. Couet C, Jan P, Debry G. Lactose and cataract in humans: a review. J Am Coll Nutr 1991;10:79-86.
11. Holick MF, Shao Q, Liu WW, Chen TC. The vitamin D content of fortified milk and infant formula. New Engl J Med 1992;326:1178-81.
12. Jacobus CH, Holick MF, Shao Q, et al. Hypervitaminosis D associated with drinking milk. New Engl J Med 1992;326:1173-7.
13. Riggs BL, Wahner HW, Melton J, Richelson LS, Judd HL, O?Fallon M. Dietary calcium intake and rates on bone loss in women. J Clin Invest 1987;80:979-82.
14. Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Milk, dietary calcium, and bone fractures in women: a 12-year prospective study. Am J Publ Health 1997;87:992-7.
15. Heaney RP, Weaver CM. Calcium absorption from kale. Am J Clin Nutr 1990;51:656-7.
16. Nicar MJ, Pak CYC. Calcium bioavailability from calcium carbonate and calcium citrate. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985;61:391-3.
17. Dawson-Hughes B. Calcium supplementation and bone loss: a review of controlled clinical trials. Am J Clin Nutr 1991;54:274S-80S.
18. Mazess RB, Barden HS. Bone density in premenopausal women: effects of age, dietary intake, physical activity, smoking, and birth control pills. Am J Clin Nutr 1991;53:132-42.
19. Nelson ME, Fisher EC, Dilmanian FA, Dallal GE, Evans WJ. A 1-y walking program and increased dietary calcium in postmenopausal women: efect on bone. Am J Clin Nutr 1991;53:1304-11.
20. Nielsen FH, Hunt CD, Mullen LM, Hunt JR. Effect of dietary boron on mineral, estrogen, and testosterone metabolism in postmenopausal women. FASEB J 1987;1:394-7.
21. Zemel MB. Role of the sulfur-containing amino acids in protein-induced hypercalciuria in men. J Nutr 1981;111:545.
22. Hegsted M. Urinary calcium and calcium balance in young men as affected by level of protein and phosphorus intake. J Nutr 1981;111:553.
23. Marsh AG, Sanchez TV, Mickelsen O, Keiser J, Mayor G. Cortical bone density of adult lacto-ovo-vegetarian and omnivorous women. J Am Dietetic Asso 1980;76:148-51.
11/16/98
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 27, 2005, 01:57 PM NHFT
http://www.storey.com/
Root Cellaring? by Mike and Nancy Bubel
Making & Using Dried Foods? by Phyllis Hobson
Home Cheese Making? by Ricki Carroll
Keeping the Harvest? by Nancy Chioffi, Gretchen Mead
Big Book of Preserving the Harvest, The? by Carol W. Costenbader
A Guide to Canning, Freezing, Curing, and Smoking Meat, Fish, and Game? by Wilbur Eastman
Mike, Thanks for the link. This is a cool site. Some real nifty books. Also a source for wholesale books for the future bookstore/coffee shoppe.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 27, 2005, 01:49 PM NHFT
Long ago, they created a long-term method of preserving the nutrients in milk.
It's called cheese.? ?;)
Mike I doubt that people will put cheese in their coffee. ;D
Quote from: katdillon on October 27, 2005, 01:23 PM NHFT
Nah, just makes the brownies taste funny.
And, it makes you want more!
Quote from: president on October 27, 2005, 02:35 PM NHFT
http://www.pcrm.org/health/Info_on_Veg_Diets/milk.html
But....but, what would I put in my coffee?
Ew, coffee. :P
Quote from: Dreepa on October 28, 2005, 07:20 AM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 27, 2005, 01:49 PM NHFT
Long ago, they created a long-term method of preserving the nutrients in milk.
It's called cheese.? ?;)
Mike I doubt that people will put cheese in their coffee.? ;D
Although, sometimes this happens when you didn't know the milk went sour!
Tea! Ewww! :P
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 28, 2005, 07:42 AM NHFT
But....but, what would I put in my coffee?
(http://www.silkissoy.com/shared/images/products/433d53732002ct.jpeg)
I like my sugar with coffee and soy milk.
Quote from: president on October 28, 2005, 08:55 AM NHFT
Paraphrase; Cows milk is low in iron.
Eating some cow will take care of that!
Nope, breastmilk and formula for infants. I don't waste cow on a blender!
Quote from: president on October 28, 2005, 08:55 AM NHFT
my sugar with coffee and soy milk.
So THAT'S why you're so feminine! :o
"Mmmm... phytoestrogens. *drool*"
-president
Coffee smells and tastes like foot and ass. :P
Some exotic coffee beans are literally pre-digested. :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_luwak
BBBLLLLLUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! *throws up on everyone*
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 28, 2005, 02:56 PM NHFT
Quote from: president on October 28, 2005, 08:55 AM NHFT
my sugar with coffee and soy milk.
So THAT'S why you're so feminine!
My writing style is feminine?
You, of all people, shouldn't go around calling people feminie. I think you are the only guy manicurist I have ever heard of.
(http://underground.soulawakenings.com/show_image.php?id=574)
Why don't you go put some conditioner in your hair?
Do you really believe you don't look like a pot head?
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 28, 2005, 02:58 PM NHFT
Coffee smells and tastes like foot and ass.
Do you have a lot of experience tasting foot and ass?
Jeez, president, you lack a sense of humor. ;D
Quote from: president on October 28, 2005, 03:13 PM NHFT
You, of all people, shouldn't go around calling people feminie. I think you are the only guy manicurist I have ever heard of.
Why don't you go put some conditioner in your hair?
Do you really believe you don't look like a pot head?
What? That wasn't me! *fleeing with guilt*
Man, the Foster's reporter looking through the business signs is as creepy as hell. I remember him. He is creepy. :o
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 26, 2005, 09:53 PM NHFT
Think of worsening economic conditions in a positive light instead.
The faster and sooner the correction, the less painful it will be. The longer it drags out, with the government kicking and screaming while trying to stop it from happening, the worse it will be.
Agreed. But it will sitll be painful, even if it happens now.
The stock market died Thursday on a report of falling durable goods orders from US manufacturers. Then on Friday, the market recovered from those losses because of another report of an increase in the GDP. ::)
Our manufacturing base is gone and we run a flimsy service economy because of the power of the US dollar as a global reserve currency backed by our absolutely predominant military.
But people cannot connect the dots because they're too busy consuming everything in sight. :-X
Yes, Precious will thank you for the gift.
4:21 PM 11/16/2005
Gold: $478.80
Silver: $8.01
:)
Up 2% in a few hours...
Wow.
Make that $481.90!!! :o
Unbelievable!
I graduated high school in 1981, so we ordered our class rings in our junior year, the fall of 1979. You know what happened by January 1980... gold was $850, and there was a lot of worry that we'd never get our rings. Eventually we did, but I think it wasn't until we started our senior year.
$486
Holy cow!
Au: $493.10 :o
Ag: $8.14
This is out of control!!!
The value of ALL of our US-dollar-denominated assets just decreased by 4.8% in a matter of DAYS. :o
Luckily, most of us own REAL money. ;D
My bullion is up 20% since I bought it less than a year ago.
Stop rubbing it in. ;)
8)
LOL
I like to keep all my liquid assets in paper with dead presidents pictures. ;)
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 13, 2005, 07:33 AM NHFT
When the shit hits the fan, showers will loose their importance and stop being available.? The problem will be aquiring and protecting food.
hey if you guys are going thru end of the world mode here is a resource that will help you; throw it on your laptop and then after a disaster you can keyword search it for info on water treatment, first aid info etc. Sure it's better to already know but this will help fill in the cracks without you needing internet access or constant electricity.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dadaorwell/disaster.htm
Quote from: DadaOrwell on November 22, 2005, 08:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 13, 2005, 07:33 AM NHFT
When the shit hits the fan, showers will loose their importance and stop being available.? The problem will be aquiring and protecting food.
hey if you guys are going thru end of the world mode here is a resource that will help you; throw it on your laptop and then after a disaster you can keyword search it for info on water treatment, first aid info etc.? ?Sure it's better to already know but this will help fill in the cracks without you needing internet access or constant electricity.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dadaorwell/disaster.htm
:o :o :o
It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it. And I feel fine.
Is there anyplace that gives close to numismatic value when you sell a gold coin? I have some US gold coins I got when I had a higher paying job than I do now (haven't been able to buy any since but have held them). I went to sell one and nomatter that the "red book" value of the coin in that condition was a (couple hundred more than its metal value in this case as it was circulated), the dealer's best offer was slightly less than the current price of gold.
I don't mind a dealer turning some profit, but trying to buy it for less than the metal value when there is clearly some additional coin collector value strikes me as a bit shady.
You need to find a collector. They will be willing to pay close to book value. The dealer is out to make a profit.
The value of the US dollar has plummeted almost 50% in the past 4 years.
Austrian economists on the New Hampshire Underground should send out a press release warning of a possible imminent economic collapse because of the currency, housing market, regulatory environment, lack of an industrial base, rampant consumption, and record household debts.
If we're wrong on the timing, oh well.? The collapse will happen eventually in any case.? This economy is simply unsustainable.
According to Austrian economics, this prediction is accurate.? If the collapse happens soon after our prediction, the boost to our credibility will be unprecedented.? ?:o
We cannot stay silent, then claim "we told you so!" after the fact.? ;)
Average people don't look at those that pointed out the insanity as knowledgable ..... even when they are right.
That is true, however, Austrian economists make predictions that come true, and news stations want to interview them to find out how they knew.
I predict that over the next 50 years Gold/Silver/Oil/Wheat/Cattle will go up in value vs. the $ ;D
The pressure put on the system by the retiring baby boomers will most likely tip the scales against the economy, causing it to implode. Or perhaps China will decide to stop buying treasury notes. Who will pick up the slack?
Quote from: russellkanning on November 27, 2005, 03:58 PM NHFT
I predict that over the next 50 years Gold/Silver/Oil/Wheat/Cattle will go up in value vs. the $ ;D
How do you know this? Are you a genius? A Svengali? I just can't imagine how you figured that out. ;D
Quote from: DadaOrwell on November 22, 2005, 08:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 13, 2005, 07:33 AM NHFT
When the shit hits the fan, showers will loose their importance and stop being available.? The problem will be aquiring and protecting food.
hey if you guys are going thru end of the world mode here is a resource that will help you; throw it on your laptop and then after a disaster you can keyword search it for info on water treatment, first aid info etc.? ?Sure it's better to already know but this will help fill in the cracks without you needing internet access or constant electricity.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dadaorwell/disaster.htm
Dada this is a great idea!!!!!!!!
Silver 8.35
sigh...
Though burned repeatedly, technology investors will never learn.? ?::)
;D
It is hard to know how much Google is worth, but the current price seems too high.
Quote from: russellkanning on November 29, 2005, 09:59 AM NHFT
It is hard to know how much Google is worth, but the current price seems too high.
Stock is worth whatever a willing buyer will pay. A fool and his money are soon parted.
Quote from: katdillon on November 29, 2005, 06:15 AM NHFT
Silver 8.35
Damn I was going to buy silver from Phoenix at 8.02.
Au: $502.70
Ag: $8.54
>:D
Au: $509.10
Ag: $8.61
Uhh guys... the economy is collapsing.
Ok, chicken little.
Any word on the sky?
I am more concerned with that.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 05, 2005, 03:01 PM NHFT
Au:? $509.10
Ag:? $8.61
Uhh guys... the economy is collapsing.
I here what you are saying about I'm not excited that metals are up. Luckly, one of my main stocks hit a new 52 week high, so all is not lost...
Quote from: president on December 05, 2005, 03:08 PM NHFT
Ok, chicken little.
Any word on the sky?
I am more concerned with that.
Add up all the USD currency you've made during the past 5 years.
Now cut that number in HALF. That's how much real money you've earned.
Try not to cry when you think about it.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 05, 2005, 03:48 PM NHFT
Add up all the USD currency you've made during the past 5 years.
Now cut that number in HALF. That's how much real money you've earned.
Only if you want to exchange it for gold, and only right now.
Buying gold now would be foolish. When prices go up, you hold what you've got. And if you're speculating, you bail out at what you hope to be the peak. But I don't think anyone arguing for gold as "real money" is speculating, hoping to get more FRNs in return.
Kevin
Maybe $ are collapsing. I don't have a lot of those, so I don't feel it very much. ;D
I also don't have much $.
I have invested in metal. Copper jacketed lead and brass.
And good slide rulers for trajectory analysis since calculators require batteries. >:D
-- Bridget
Quote from: ladyattis on December 05, 2005, 10:30 PM NHFT
And good slide rulers for trajectory analysis since calculators require batteries. >:D
-- Bridget
Charts-n-darts, baby! ;D
I had a mortar section chief who could do a manual hipshoot faster than anyone could enter it into the BUCS. I loved watching those 4.2 inch loogies aaaaalll the way up, then aaaaalll the way down, then *boom*.
Quote from: ladyattis on December 05, 2005, 10:30 PM NHFT
And good slide rulers for trajectory analysis since calculators require batteries.? >:D
-- Bridget
I've got my potatoes!
[attachment deleted by admin]
another good article about real estate in Vegas
http://www.lewrockwell.com/french/french39.html
Quote from: russellkanning on December 06, 2005, 01:22 PM NHFT
another good article about real estate in Vegas
http://www.lewrockwell.com/french/french39.html
Further solidifies my resolve to never go there. Rather like New Orleans and Katrina.
Kevin
Amazing, considering how gaming has expanded around the country and you no longer have to go to Vegas to gamble.
I visit the indians in Eastern CT a couple times a year and play Roulette. Not the game with the best odds, but, I enjoy it. Over about 5 years I'm up about 200 bucks. I've learned how to control a third of the wheel with something close to the minumum bet and it, usually, allows me to stay at the table for quite a while for very little money. On the few occaisions I left without my $40 stake, I figure I got entertainment and scotch for my money and the days I broke even, gotfree entertainment and free scotch.
Don't know nuth'in about vice.
Quote from: The Baron on December 06, 2005, 11:45 AM NHFT
I'm looking at this FuKing.
http://www.otherpower.com/fuking.html
I'v got an old gas farm engine and have heard of the Lister, but, didn't know anyone was making a simple diesel. I sent away for the CD.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 06, 2005, 05:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: The Baron on December 06, 2005, 11:45 AM NHFT
I'm looking at this FuKing.
http://www.otherpower.com/fuking.html
I'v got an old gas farm engine and have heard of the Lister, but, didn't know anyone was making a simple diesel. I sent away for the CD.
There are some good alternative power links there, and lots of interesting reading. Looks like a fun bunch of guys to hang around with!
This really belongs over on the "Burning waste oil" thread, since these little wonder seem to run just fine on anything you feed them.
Kevin
Au: $514.90
Ag: $8.78
;D
it just keeps going.
Uhhh... guys. Don't look now.
The sky is falling. :o
Au: $518.10
Ag: $8.81
2001:
(http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au2001.gif)
2002:
(http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au2002.gif)
2003:
(http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au2003.gif)
2004:
(http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au2004.gif)
2005:
(http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au2005.gif)
Hmmm... no observable trend here. ::)
Except that the US dollar has devalued by 52% since 2001. :o
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 10:49 PM NHFT
And yet exchange rates have pretty much stayed the same.
Because the US dollar is the world's reserve currency.? US dollar currency fluctuations affect everyone who allows the US dollar within their borders, which is every country.
Once every country stops accepting US dollars as "money", their economies will be much stronger.
This is the only country that could ever get away with this complete scam.
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 10:55 PM NHFT
So, what year will China pwn us?
China already 0wns us. We just haven't realized it yet.
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 10:55 PM NHFT
So, what year will China pwn us?
When they are prepared to invade Taiwan. They hold all the chips.
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 11:00 PM NHFT
I bet 75% the things in this room are made or have parts that are made there.
How many Administrative Assistants can this country support?
Name anyone you know who creates any products of value at an affordable price.
Almost everyone I know is in the service industry, or actually provides a service.
Even all the employees and contractors I know at Timberland create
nothing. 92% of Timberland products are made by independent manufacturers in China. The other 8% are made in the Dominican Republic.
I think some food and novelty products are still made in the US. Useless crap like promotional items. Everything else we make is unaffordable or complete garbage.
What would you say... we DO here? ???
;D
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 07, 2005, 11:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 11:00 PM NHFT
I bet 75% the things in this room are made or have parts that are made there.
How many Administrative Assistants can this country support?
Name anyone you know who creates any products of value at an affordable price.
Almost everyone I know is in the service industry, or actually provides a service.
Even all the employees and contractors I know at Timberland create nothing.? 92% of Timberland products are made by independent manufacturers in China.? The other 8% are made in the Dominican Republic.
I think some food and novelty products are still made in the US.? Useless crap like promotional items.? Everything else we make is unaffordable or complete garbage.
They make Honda Civics in America, although, mine was made north of the border. ?They also made water in America, I like water.
Plus, they make sheep in America, but you trying to ruin that. ?Sure, one of the few things make in America, and you are trying to end it.
Thanks a lot ;D
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 07, 2005, 11:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 11:00 PM NHFT
I bet 75% the things in this room are made or have parts that are made there.
How many Administrative Assistants can this country support?
Name anyone you know who creates any products of value at an affordable price.
Almost everyone I know is in the service industry, or actually provides a service.
Even all the employees and contractors I know at Timberland create nothing.? 92% of Timberland products are made by independent manufacturers in China.? The other 8% are made in the Dominican Republic.
I think some food and novelty products are still made in the US.? Useless crap like promotional items.? Everything else we make is unaffordable or complete garbage.
You exaggerate a bit Mike, but the trend is in that direction. Lumber, automobiles, trucks, mining equipment, airplanes, semi-conductor chips, among other things, are still manufactured here.
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 11:08 PM NHFT
Even my underwear is Made in Canada.
Mine is made by Ian. ;D
Fruit of
The
Loom
Quote from: AlanM on December 07, 2005, 11:09 PM NHFT
You exaggerate a bit Mike, but the trend is in that direction. Lumber, automobiles, trucks, mining equipment, airplanes, semi-conductor chips, among other things, are still manufactured here.
Lumber is expensive.
American automobiles are the laughing stock of the world, and rightly so.
Mining equipment and airplanes? Who can afford that? Wealthy businessmen, perhaps.
Semi-conductor chips? Maybe a few companies still make them here, but they're learning their lessons and outsourcing rapidly.
I'm not exaggerating, Alan.
Out of all the equipment and supplies in my office, the only things made in America are... myself, the phonebook... ummm... some stickers, some software, two Intel processors, 3 lightbulbs, some candy... umm... some homemade signs, a small shelf I created, a fire extinguisher, maybe one old chair.... some books, batteries, and various household cleaning chemicals.
That is a very tiny fraction of the value of everything in the room. :o
We're screwed.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 07, 2005, 11:41 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on December 07, 2005, 11:09 PM NHFT
You exaggerate a bit Mike, but the trend is in that direction. Lumber, automobiles, trucks, mining equipment, airplanes, semi-conductor chips, among other things, are still manufactured here.
Lumber is expensive.
American automobiles are the laughing stock of the world, and rightly so.
Mining equipment and airplanes?? Who can afford that?? Wealthy businessmen, perhaps.
Semi-conductor chips?? Maybe a few companies still make them here, but they're learning their lessons and outsourcing rapidly.
I'm not exaggerating, Alan.
Out of all the equipment and supplies in my office, the only things made in America are...? myself, the phonebook... ummm... some stickers, some software, two Intel processors, 3 lightbulbs, some candy... umm... some homemade signs, a small shelf I created, a fire extinguisher, maybe one old chair.... some books, batteries, and various household cleaning chemicals.
That is a very tiny fraction of the value of everything in the room.? ?:o
What about the floors (American carpets?) walls, paneling (most likely American), ceilings (drywall by Americans). Your furniture might have been made in America.
As I said, I agree with you, the trend is bad.
Quote from: AlanM on December 07, 2005, 11:52 PM NHFT
What about the floors (American carpets?) walls, paneling (most likely American), ceilings (drywall by Americans). Your furniture might have been made in America.
As I said, I agree with you, the trend is bad.
I think our home was manufactured in America 25 years ago, so the room itself might be made in America.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 08, 2005, 12:13 AM NHFT
I think our home was manufactured in America 25 years ago, so the room itself might be made in America.
How is it bad to not produce many things in America? I call it progress. I am glad that I, as an American, am helping to increase the standard of living in the 3rd world.
Quote from: The Baron on December 08, 2005, 12:24 AM NHFT
Those who went to college and accrued hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and now can't find a job.
There is a job for everyone in America. Also, I cannot imagine anything about anyone that would actually get hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for college.
So, Mike... start making affordable quality stuff that everyone wants.
Simple, wot? ;D
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 10:49 PM NHFT
And yet exchange rates have pretty much stayed the same.
I think they all print money.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 07, 2005, 09:27 PM NHFT
Uhhh... guys. Don't look now.
The sky is falling. :o
Why is the sky falling? Just because gold is going up compared to dollars, doesn't mean disaster from above.
Do we laugh at Switzerland because they import things or mostly do "service" industry work? Is Hong Kong screwed because it imports all it's food and most of it's stuff is manufactured in the rest of the world?
They make ball bearings in Keene.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 07, 2005, 11:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 11:00 PM NHFT
I bet 75% the things in this room are made or have parts that are made there.
How many Administrative Assistants can this country support?
Name anyone you know who creates any products of value at an affordable price.
Almost everyone I know is in the service industry, or actually provides a service.
Even all the employees and contractors I know at Timberland create nothing.? 92% of Timberland products are made by independent manufacturers in China.? The other 8% are made in the Dominican Republic.
I think some food and novelty products are still made in the US.? Useless crap like promotional items.? Everything else we make is unaffordable or complete garbage.
I make nice, reasonably priced toys and picnic tables. Everything else I do is service oriented, except for what I build for people.
Novelties are, technically, Ice Cream items.
People are comparing us to China and saying we are screwed. Why not compare ourselves to other import dependant countries?
Quote from: AlanM on December 07, 2005, 10:59 PM NHFT
Quote from: The Baron on December 07, 2005, 10:55 PM NHFT
So, what year will China pwn us?
When they are prepared to invade Taiwan. They hold all the chips.
If they do this and we take the side of Taiwan (ClusterFuck!), the claim of Free Market Economists that countries that trade don't go to war will be void!
Quote from: russellkanning on December 08, 2005, 03:20 AM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on December 07, 2005, 09:27 PM NHFT
Uhhh... guys. Don't look now.
The sky is falling. :o
Why is the sky falling? Just because gold is going up compared to dollars, doesn't mean disaster from above.
This has happened before
Gee, I wish I could stay up all night and play with you guys in real time ;D
I wake up in the middle of the night and stoke the fire post some jibberish then off to bed again. :)
Quote from: The Baron on December 08, 2005, 07:52 AM NHFT
More than $100k if you want non-state sponsored schooling.
I have never heard of anyone getting into that much debt for school if the loans are non-state sponsored.
Quote from: The Baron on December 08, 2005, 07:52 AM NHFT
Quote from: TN-FSP on December 08, 2005, 12:26 AM NHFT
There is a job for everyone in America.
You're forgetting about a large portion of the population there, sonny.
What portion of the population would that be?
$520.70
$8.92
$s are falling
Au: $525.40
Ag: $8.96
:o
Quote from: The Baron on December 09, 2005, 12:03 PM NHFT
Dude, it's time to get into prospecting!
I don't know if they still do it, but. up to the early 1970's people were taking small amounts of gold from the Swift River area of eastern Maine.
Ag: $8.99
Au: $526.30
Pt: $995.00
;D
I've seen the goldprospectors.org TV show. It mostly looks like one of those "got nothing better to do" hobbies, because participants are lucky to break even.
Kevin
Whoops! I meant Western Maine, near fryeburg.
That is what all the good prospectors do ..... misguide (Lloyd) and downplay the return (KB) ;)
I have panned all over NE and have found absolutely no good place to get gold or silver and I have not found a single diamond in my garden .... even if I dig down a foot or 2. ;D
Au:? $537.90
Ag:? $9.20
What the...? :o? ??? :o
Dec 12 last NY silver is $8.71.
London fix is $9.2250
Ohh! These silver coins are almost woth what I paid for them!
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 13, 2005, 07:40 AM NHFT
Ohh! These silver coins are almost woth what I paid for them!
Oh, you must be a wothy person now ;)
Is that bad? :)
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 13, 2005, 07:40 AM NHFT
Ohh! These silver coins are almost worth what I paid for them!
If they're $10 Liberty Dollars, you can take them to an RCO and trade them in for $20 Liberty Dollars (with a small reminting fee, I think it's $2 FRN until the end of January).
In other words, if you have a one-ounce Silver Liberty marked as $10, you give it and two $ in Federal Reserve Notes to an RCO, and he'll give you a one-ounce Silver Liberty marked as $20.
I'm not an RCO, but I'd be willing to do that myself, once I've done mine. New Hampshire has an RCO North East of Concord (you can look it up...)
That's a pain in the u-no-what. Why can't it say "1 oz silver- whatever that is worth to ya"?
Cathleen
Quote from: cathleeninnh on December 14, 2005, 08:40 AM NHFT
That's a pain in the u-no-what. Why can't it say "1 oz silver- whatever that is worth to ya"?
Because the sheeple can't understand a commodity based currency.
They only understand the numbers printed on it.
The sheeple will never trade in Liberty dollars. At most, some will collect out of curiosity. I think anyone who sees a benefit to trading with them could easily get used to thinking in ounces or grams or whatever.
Cathleen
There is a guy who comes to the MVP meetings.
I am looking into getting 1 oz of silver. I am going to trade them for whatever the cost of silver is plus the minting fee.
It will probably say 'KEEP NH FREE' or something like that.
I will probably order them in Jan/Feb. I won't make any money on them unless I sell about 500 ozs.
Look here for details!
8)
I like to use silver ounces
Quote from: rhelwig on December 14, 2005, 06:57 AM NHFT
In other words, if you have a one-ounce Silver Liberty marked as $10, you give it and two $ in Federal Reserve Notes to an RCO, and he'll give you a one-ounce Silver Liberty marked as $20.
If I take a FRN marked $1, and write $20 on it with a sharpie, how many LDs will he give me?
>:D
Quote from: KBCraig on December 14, 2005, 02:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: rhelwig on December 14, 2005, 06:57 AM NHFT
In other words, if you have a one-ounce Silver Liberty marked as $10, you give it and two $ in Federal Reserve Notes to an RCO, and he'll give you a one-ounce Silver Liberty marked as $20.
If I take a FRN marked $1, and write $20 on it with a sharpie, how many LDs will he give me?
>:D
;D
I really wish Bernard would start minting LDs with no $ amount on them.
They wouldn't have to change the current system, just implement an additional one that functions entirely on value of silver, rather than pegging it to the price of FRNs.
And he should mint fractional coins, also. 1/2, 1/4, 1/10 and 1/20 ounce.
How do you balance your till at the end of the day?
Anyone else here remember "wooden nickels" or "green stamps?" Little promotional pieces accepted by a group of cooperating local merchants as a form of discount?
Why not look at the Liberty Dollars as just that sort of device, a way to keep money circulating in the local economy among local businesses instead of being shipped off to Toronto Dominion bank, with the added benefit of intrinsic value that wooden nickels or green stamps never had?
The idea is to provide an easy, simple way to get silver into circulation, and if you have to look up the "spot" price, which is the per-ounce price of a 500 ounce ingot in New York and which has only peripheral relationship to the value of the minted silver piece on your hand, then that defeats the purpose of easy, simple introduction to circulation.
Quote from: The Baron on December 15, 2005, 12:15 PM NHFTThen how are you going to scam people into accepting them?
How is it a scam?
I trade my goods for their goods.
It is a voluntary, mutual exchange.
I have a couple 1/2 ounce (denominated as $5) Silver Liberties. Also have a couple 1/20th ounce Silver Liberties marked as $1 (because it's not economically possible to coin 1/10th ounce as if it were $1).
Why were pennies made of copper originally? Because the cost of coining prohibited making them out of silver (even as an alloy to make the size useable).
Bernard and Norfed might want to look into minting copper liberties.
Also, for those who don't want their money denominated in dollars, you can get the https://www.phoenixdollar.com/ (https://www.phoenixdollar.com/) .
I don't know where I found this:
http://www.eh.net/hmit/
Quote from: rhelwig on December 15, 2005, 06:41 PM NHFT
Also, for those who don't want their money denominated in dollars, you can get the https://www.phoenixdollar.com/ (https://www.phoenixdollar.com/) .
I am working on get porc dollars. ;D
Quote from: rhelwig on December 15, 2005, 06:41 PM NHFTAlso, for those who don't want their money denominated in dollars, you can get the https://www.phoenixdollar.com/ (https://www.phoenixdollar.com/) .
I don't like Phoenix Dollars for a couple reasons.
One, they have a hotline to call that only checks the SPOT price of silver, and that is considered the current value.
This means if you want to exchange recently purchased silver rounds, you are going to lose out due to the minting fee you paid.
Second, the rounds STILL have a denomination on them. When people see "10 Phoenix Dollars" they are going to think that's $10.
Convincing them that it is worth more than $10 will be difficult.
Third, a transaction fee of 1% is charged with every use. Thank you, but I get enough taxes from the government already.
Fourth, I can't for the life of me figure out how to purchase the damn rounds, and they dont even have a picture of the obverse and reverse large enough to see the coin in detail. The only thing I could find a place to purchase was the bullion bars.
So let the rest of us enjoy them ..... you don't need to use them with us.
Quote from: Gabo on December 17, 2005, 12:47 PM NHFT
I don't like Phoenix Dollars for a couple reasons.
I am not going to be exchanging them as $10 I am going to say here is an ounce of silver. Do you want it? It will sell at the going rate.
Nothing to do with the company at all. Still working out some of the logistics on this.
Quote from: Dreepa on December 18, 2005, 11:16 AM NHFTI am not going to be exchanging them as $10 I am going to say here is an ounce of silver.
I don't understand why they would make a currency that is supposed to go by its weight in silver, but then mark it saying "10 Phoenix Dollars".
Well the good news is that it will say 1oz silver on the rounds I am trying to get.
Also
KEEP
NEW HAMPSHIRE
FREE
Quote from: AlanM on November 27, 2005, 03:59 PM NHFT
The pressure put on the system by the retiring baby boomers will most likely tip the scales against the economy, causing it to implode. Or perhaps China will decide to stop buying treasury notes. Who will pick up the slack?
Eventually Mid East country's will stop selling their oil for dollars too. In fact Saddam was planning on selling his oil for Euro's before we invaded him. It's another bit foot that will hit our economy eventually.
Cool! I got an old dollar bill, and thought it looked funny. It's a silver certificate, "One dollar in silver payable to the bearer on demand." :D
Better take that to the bank and demand your silver!
I have one from the 1930's that does not have 'In God We Trust' on it. Probably because of the silver backing it.
Gold's back below $500.
Gold 528
Silver 9.01
buy buy buy
Buy what?
Rodney Dangerfield voice "ok then .... Sell"
Are those my only choices?
Quote from: katdillon on January 03, 2006, 12:36 PM NHFT
Are those my only choices?
Hold. Silver, gold, or in your case, Russell and/or Kira. ;)
Now there's an option I like!
Quote from: katdillon on January 03, 2006, 11:54 AM NHFT
Gold 528
Silver 9.01
Wow... Oil is inching up as well!
Nymex Crude Future:
62.45 http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/
I feel like the $s in my wallet are going down. :(
Quote from: russellkanning on January 04, 2006, 07:14 AM NHFT
I feel like the $s in my wallet are going down. :(
They are. At a rate of about 10% per year at the current time. :o
Eliminating my dollar-denominated assets is beginning to sound like a good idea.
Quote from: Michael Fisher on January 04, 2006, 06:34 AM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on January 03, 2006, 11:54 AM NHFT
Gold 528
Silver 9.01
Wow...? Oil is inching up as well!
Nymex Crude Future:? 62.45
http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/
This was in large part because of the Russiua/Ukraine natural gas "disagreement."
Au: $545.80
Ag: $9.17
8)
What inflation? ???
Au: $556.50
Ag: $9.09
25-year high.
Rumors that China will further devalue the Yuan from the USD but the main reason they're holding back is because it will destroy our economy.
What economy? We make nothing!
Gold 623.10
Quote from: Michael Fisher on January 13, 2006, 04:56 PM NHFT
What economy? We make nothing!
Most of the food I ate today was grown in this country. :)
...... wait a minute .... who is "we" Mike?
Does it really matter what country your stuff is made in?
Quote from: katdillon on January 13, 2006, 05:25 PM NHFT
Gold 623.10
Gold doesn't trade on the weekends, silly. ;)
Quote from: russellkanning on January 13, 2006, 05:31 PM NHFT
Quote from: Michael Fisher on January 13, 2006, 04:56 PM NHFT
What economy?? We make nothing!
Most of the food I ate today was grown in this country. :)
...... wait a minute .... who is "we" Mike?
Does it really matter what country your stuff is made in?
Yes it does, unfortunately.
We have to ask ourselves where the valuable stuff we see around us comes from, who's making it, and what hard work we've done to earn it from them. The American workforce does not add a lot of value to the rest of the world. We are a massive drain on the global economy.
The reason we get away with it is because the US dollar is the world's reserve currency - bureaucrats type digits in a computer and new money suddenly exists. When the world realizes this, they'll dump our currency, our economy will collapse, and the rest of the world will be much more wealthy than it is now. They will be able to use what they make rather than selling it to the US for fake money. :o
Right, it is backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States government." ::)
I think land, tools and property are more valuable than gold.
You can't eat gold, use it to power your car, keep yourself warm in winter, etc.
I remember when I was growing up in Ukraine my grandma would always stock pile stuff, never money. We had cartons of soap, clothes of all sorts and lots of fabric for making clothes, candles, cans of food. My grandma grew vegetables on our balcony (we lived in an apartment building).
In a sense to me gold is just as valuable as fiat currency. Gold is just a metal just like fiat money is just paper.
So unless you own a microprocessor fabrication plant I don't think gold is a good investment. Buy land.
I believe the ideal form of currency would be some sort of capsulated energy that could be easily used for tons of things.
You could simply take out your energy wallet, hook it up to someone else's, and transfer over joules to buy whatever you wanted.
The ideal currency is, Money, preferably, made of or backed by something of inherent and universally accepted value, to limit inflation.
Energy is a commodity. Trading commodity for commodity is limiting and a step backwards.
A person living in NYC or boston in an apartment building, using public transportation has no use for energy in their wallett. They could trade some of it to their landlord for the heat and air conditioning and some to the transportation agency, but, not all. It would have to be convertablie to something else.
Stick with money.
Plus with hydrogen power you can make energy basically out of water. All you need is some sun to power the converter and some water to produce the hydrogen. And you have high quality energy at your finger tips.
Make your own hydrogen car for $80
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=/product=849/action=av/vid=44444
That is really neat. 8)
Mixing solar and hydrogen makes sense. While you are away the system soaks up sun to create the power to convert the water to hydrogen. :)
Quote from: AlanM on January 16, 2006, 09:19 AM NHFT
That is really neat. 8)
Mixing solar and hydrogen makes sense. While you are away the system soaks up sun to create the power to convert the water to hydrogen. :)
Also, as far as I understand hydrogen would store energy MUCH better then any battery could if you were to just convert the suns energy into electricity and put it in a car battery or something the energy would slowly leak. And hydrogen is just a gas, so as long as you can contain it, it should be all good. (hydrogen does explode big time though, so you probably woudl want to keep it as far away from the house as possible ;) )
Quote from: eukreign on January 16, 2006, 09:26 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on January 16, 2006, 09:19 AM NHFT
That is really neat.? 8)
Mixing solar and hydrogen makes sense. While you are away the system soaks up sun to create the power to convert the water to hydrogen.? :)
Also, as far as I understand hydrogen would store energy MUCH better then any battery could if you were to just convert the suns energy into electricity and put it in a car battery or something the energy would slowly leak. And hydrogen is just a gas, so as long as you can contain it, it should be all good. (hydrogen does explode big time though, so you probably woudl want to keep it as far away from the house as possible? ;) )
You could use the hydrogen to power a generator for your house power, too. Solar power generally works backwards with the weather, not enough when you really need it. Being able to store the suns power by converting it to hydrogen makes it available WHEN you need it.
Quote from: AlanM on January 16, 2006, 09:29 AM NHFT
Quote from: eukreign on January 16, 2006, 09:26 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on January 16, 2006, 09:19 AM NHFT
That is really neat. 8)
Mixing solar and hydrogen makes sense. While you are away the system soaks up sun to create the power to convert the water to hydrogen. :)
Also, as far as I understand hydrogen would store energy MUCH better then any battery could if you were to just convert the suns energy into electricity and put it in a car battery or something the energy would slowly leak. And hydrogen is just a gas, so as long as you can contain it, it should be all good. (hydrogen does explode big time though, so you probably woudl want to keep it as far away from the house as possible ;) )
You could use the hydrogen to power a generator for your house power, too. Solar power generally works backwards with the weather, not enough when you really need it. Being able to store the suns power by converting it to hydrogen makes it available WHEN you need it.
And the exhaust from your generator is just steam!
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on January 16, 2006, 07:05 AM NHFTEnergy is a commodity. Trading commodity for commodity is limiting and a step backwards.
Whether it is used as the actual currency, or whether it is the backing, I believe energy is the most useful thing to use.
QuoteA person living in NYC or boston in an apartment building, using public transportation has no use for energy in their wallett. They could trade some of it to their landlord for the heat and air conditioning and some to the transportation agency, but, not all. It would have to be convertablie to something else.
One thing is for sure.
Energy is a HELL of a lot more useful than gold or silver is. And where do you get off saying the person has no use for the energy?
Energy will power their AC system, their television, their computer, and nearly anything else they use in life.
Energy is the most precise measure of a person's labor, so it makes sense that it should be the basis for a currency.
Quote from: Gabo on January 16, 2006, 11:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on January 16, 2006, 07:05 AM NHFTEnergy is a commodity. Trading commodity for commodity is limiting and a step backwards.
Whether it is used as the actual currency, or whether it is the backing, I believe energy is the most useful thing to use.
Energy doesn't make sense for use as a currency because it can be created (thus causing inflation).
What happens to the economy when they finally figure out cold fusion, or hot fusion for that matter?
What happens when we get government off the backs of the nuclear power plants and power becomes cheaper?
How do you carry it? Would you drive around with an 18-wheeler carrying a big battery?
Gold's most useful quality, with respect to currency, is the stability of the amount of it out there.
Once they figure out Cold Fusion (BTW a theoretical impossibility. At least at this point.) and figure out how to build replicators and atomic nanno-machines (which doesn't violate any theoretical laws of physics) it just means that the poorest person on the planet will be easily 10 times wealthier then the richest person is now.
It's possible that we will reach a day when everything is so cheep that all of a person's needs would be provided for on less then $1/year (in todays cheaop worthless inflated dollars)
A person would be able to work menial labor for 1 year save all of his money except the basic expenses and then retire and be set for life.
Now that's a few years away but w/ the current advances in nannotechnology it 3 or 4 years from now all of our lives could be considerably wealthier.
So if energy inflates a lot it probably wouldn't inflate near as much as the products that energy is used to make. And if individuals still prefer gold (of course if replicators are invented gold really wouldn't be worth much either.)
People will figure out for themselves what medium of exchange they want to use.
Tracy
Quote from: eukreign on January 16, 2006, 09:12 AM NHFT
Plus with hydrogen power you can make energy basically out of water. All you need is some sun to power the converter and some water to produce the hydrogen. And you have high quality energy at your finger tips.
Make your own hydrogen car for $80
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=/product=849/action=av/vid=44444
That's still a pretty expensive way to power a real car. But with the price of gas skyrocketing 60% a year or more . . . . It won't be long before it's worth it.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on January 17, 2006, 01:43 PM NHFT
Quote from: eukreign on January 16, 2006, 09:12 AM NHFT
Plus with hydrogen power you can make energy basically out of water. All you need is some sun to power the converter and some water to produce the hydrogen. And you have high quality energy at your finger tips.
Make your own hydrogen car for $80
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=/product=849/action=av/vid=44444
That's still a pretty expensive way to power a real car. But with the price of gas skyrocketing 60% a year or more . . . . It won't be long before it's worth it.
Tracy
I wasn't necessarily thinking of power a car. That would be just too much work to do yourself. What may be practical is to power the heating in your home or other simple lower power things around the house.
$570.40!!!
Remember it fell back down to $540 or so, when the interest rates went up. But it's back up now and very stable.
We'll see $600 before the end of the month (FEB).
Tracy
Quote from: rhelwig on January 16, 2006, 07:05 PM NHFTEnergy doesn't make sense for use as a currency because it can be created (thus causing inflation).
And gold is inflated when it is dug out of the ground and minted. That is the same thing.
The difference is that energy is useful in ALL situations, whereas gold is only valuable because people think it is pretty.
QuoteWhat happens to the economy when they finally figure out cold fusion, or hot fusion for that matter?
What happens when we get government off the backs of the nuclear power plants and power becomes cheaper?
What happens? We all become wealthy and better off.
The more energy we can create, the more prosperous our society becomes.
This is called "progress", something mankind achieves when government doesn't suck it all away.
QuoteHow do you carry it? Would you drive around with an 18-wheeler carrying a big battery?
I am speaking theoretically.
The use of energy as a currency would not be practical until it can be easily stored and exchanged.
QuoteGold's most useful quality, with respect to currency, is the stability of the amount of it out there.
The amount of gold is always increasing, and the demand for it fluctuates continually.
Energy is much different.
It is easily consumed to create any types of products or services, and the demand for it is insatiable.
Quote from: tracysaboe on February 01, 2006, 11:15 PM NHFT
$570.40!!!
Remember it fell back down to $540 or so, when the interest rates went up. But it's back up now and very stable.
We'll see $600 before the end of the month (FEB).
Tracy
Our economy is dead! :o
I guess I am not that worried. :)
Apparently governments are selling their gold stashes to try and obvuskate the inflation indicators. In other words, the supply of Gold is inflating too. Which means inflation is really a lot worse then what the price of Gold indicator says it is. (And it indicates it's bad.)
So inflation, instead of bad, must be really bad!
(Yes, really bad is a technical term :D
Tracy
I just invested in some gold. Diamonds, too. And roses and chocolate.
Today is our 4th anniversary. The return on the gold and diamonds is definitely worth it. ;D
:love3:
Kevin
Quote from: KBCraig on February 14, 2006, 04:57 PM NHFT
I just invested in some gold. Diamonds, too. And roses and chocolate.
Today is our 4th anniversary. The return on the gold and diamonds is definitely worth it. ;D
:love3:
Kevin
Ain't it though?
Happy 4th!
Au: $586.30
Ag: $11.61
:o
Perhaps consequentialists are not wrong, but they're simply ignoring the big picture. In the short term, statism seems to work to those who do not know any better.
But in the long term, these are the practical effects.
Quote from: TN-FSP on October 12, 2005, 07:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 12, 2005, 06:36 PM NHFT
Quote from: TN-FSP on October 12, 2005, 06:12 PM NHFT
Are you investing in gold or something?
That's the sound of the US dollar collapsing. :o
Who doesn't own gold and silver bullion? ???
Me. I also don't plan on getting any. I don't plan on putting solar collectors on my house or setting my car to run off of cooking oil. I am not interested in farming or a earthship either :)
OK. I was wrong and I did get a little silver but much later ::)
Gold $597
Silver $12.04
Quote from: katdillon on April 06, 2006, 06:14 AM NHFT
Gold $597
Silver $12.04
Woohoo! Goodbye, US government. *waves*
Au: $599.20
Ag: $12.75
This is insane!
So how many months do you think it will be before the US' final economic disaster?
I say less than a year. I've been wrong before.
Quote from: Michael Fisher on April 10, 2006, 09:04 PM NHFT
Au: $599.20
Ag: $12.75
This is insane!
So how many months do you think it will be before the US' final economic disaster?
I say less than a year. I've been wrong before.
No. It is not insane. Gold got to over $800 before (over $3,000 in today's money) and silver was over $50 (several 100 in today's money) and they economy did not fall apart.
Quote from: TN-FSP on April 10, 2006, 09:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: Michael Fisher on April 10, 2006, 09:04 PM NHFT
Au: $599.20
Ag: $12.75
This is insane!
So how many months do you think it will be before the US' final economic disaster?
I say less than a year. I've been wrong before.
No. It is not insane. Gold got to over $800 before (over $3,000 in today's money) and silver was over $50 (several 100 in today's money) and they economy did not fall apart.
If gold goes to $3000 I will be so rich that I will not care if the economy falls apart. Interest rates went to 20%. Our economy and housing bubble can't handle that today. The government needs 2.5 billion dollars a day to finance our debt. Thats not being financed by Americans because our savings rate is 0. When the government and the consumers borrow from the future , the thing about the future is it eventually gets here. I don't know if we are at the breaking point but I am watching closer now.
Quote from: TN-FSP on April 10, 2006, 09:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: Michael Fisher on April 10, 2006, 09:04 PM NHFT
Au: $599.20
Ag: $12.75
This is insane!
So how many months do you think it will be before the US' final economic disaster?
I say less than a year. I've been wrong before.
No. It is not insane. Gold got to over $800 before (over $3,000 in today's money) and silver was over $50 (several 100 in today's money) and they economy did not fall apart.
There were different factors that time though. See for several decades individuals had not even been allowed to legally own gold for some time + currency had been inflating rapidly even though "officially" gold was worth $47 an once or whatever. When Nixon went off the silver standard and it became legal to own gold again the market quickly corrected to that rediculously high gold price. But it was a bubble cause by a government caused gold opposite-of-bubble prior. The market quickly corrected once things became more liberalized and wage and price controls went away. Mining companies quickly started searching for gold and gradually the price of gold came back down -- that doesn't mean that there wasn't a lot of inflation.
We don't have that same distorsion that we did that time. If gold got up to $800/oz it would be for real this time -- as opposed to a bubble caused by previous distortions like it was the last time.
Tracy
GOLD
614.50
+18.20
+3.05%
SILVER
13.37
+0.48
+3.72%
PLATINUM
1094.00
+23.00
+2.15%
PALLADIUM
356.00
+12.00
+3.49%
What a day...
8)
Quote from: DC on April 11, 2006, 01:58 AM NHFT
If gold goes to $3000 I will be so rich that I will not care if the economy falls apart. Interest rates went to 20%. Our economy and housing bubble can't handle that today. The government needs 2.5 billion dollars a day to finance our debt. Thats not being financed by Americans because our savings rate is 0. When the government and the consumers borrow from the future , the thing about the future is it eventually gets here. I don't know if we are at the breaking point but I am watching closer now.
you might want to cash some of that in for FRNs when it happens, so after they deflate you'll be rich in legal tender too 8)
I'd want to trade it for goods, land...that sort of thing.
I bought one lousy ounce of gold for $504 . . . in the form of 10 1/10th ounce $5 gold eagles some infomercial was selling for $48 each + $24 s/h.
Was fairly surprised when 10 2006 versions showed up actually. The company sells "rare" gold coins, after I ordered the 10 eagles, they wanted to throw in a rare 1oz coin for only $1481. I declined, and the sales rep was not happy about that. Now I just have to suffer a lifetime of junk mail for my savings.
Do you guys think Platinum & Paladium are legit as sound metals holdings? I've heared different things from different people, but those I consider to be reliable experts either ignore these two options or write them off as being too risky. If you own one of these two elements, why? How has it worked out for you?
Thanks.
Quote from: powerpenguin on April 20, 2006, 09:13 PM NHFT
Do you guys think Platinum & Paladium are legit as sound metals holdings? I've heared different things from different people, but those I consider to be reliable experts either ignore these two options or write them off as being too risky. If you own one of these two elements, why? How has it worked out for you?
Thanks.
I know Paladium, it's sister metal is way over bought, IMHO. My metal is doing very well.
How do you decide what makes it "sound". Don't people have to want or need it?
Gold $635
Silver $13.09
Au: $678.70
Ag: $13.90
Now it's starting to lose its shock value.
If we get completely out of debt and learn to create most of what we need to live, as independent living requires, we should come out on top of the great collapse.
Being in debt works well when the money gets devalued. :)
But I do like the idea of no debt and not holding dollars. I do like to trade with other people to get what I need. I don't have to live independently.
Quote from: russellkanning on May 05, 2006, 08:11 AM NHFT
Being in debt works well when the money gets devalued. :)
But I do like the idea of no debt and not holding dollars. I do like to trade with other people to get what I need. I don't have to live independently.
Interdependant.
Having no debt is a great thing... freedom. beholden to no one.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
Copper is even up to about $3.43/lb. now, making collecting of pre-1982 pennies economical. Not to mention wiring and pipes.
Copper price last 5 years. Wow.
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Quote from: Pat McCotter on May 05, 2006, 09:38 AM NHFT
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
Do not borrow unless absolutely necessary:
"The rich rules over the poor,
And the borrower becomes the lender's slave."
-Proverbs 22:7
"The LORD will make you abound in prosperity, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your beast and in the produce of your ground, in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give you.
"The LORD will open for you His good storehouse, the heavens, to give rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hand; and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow."
-Deuteronomy 28:11-12
[Then, if you do not follow these commandments...]
"A people whom you do not know shall eat up the produce of your ground and all your labors, and you will never be anything but oppressed and crushed continually.
"The alien who is among you shall rise above you higher and higher, but you will go down lower and lower.
"He shall lend to you, but you will not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you will be the tail."
-Deuteronomy 28:33, 43-44
On avoiding long-term debt:
"At the end of every seven years, you shall grant a remission of debts."
-Deuteronomy 15:1
Avoid surety:
"My son, if you have become surety for your neighbor,
Have given a pledge for a stranger,
If you have been snared with the words of your mouth,
Have been caught with the words of your mouth,
Do this then, my son, and deliver yourself;
Since you have come into the hand of your neighbor,
Go, humble yourself, and importune your neighbor."
-Proverbs 6:1-3
"Take his garment when he becomes surety for a stranger;
and for foreigners, hold him in pledge."
-Proverbs 20:16
Quote from: Michael Fisher on May 07, 2006, 11:00 PM NHFT
"The alien who is among you shall rise above you higher and higher, but you will go down lower and lower.
Is this talking about Tunga?
Quote from: Dreepa on May 08, 2006, 07:29 AM NHFT
Quote from: Michael Fisher on May 07, 2006, 11:00 PM NHFT
"The alien who is among you shall rise above you higher and higher, but you will go down lower and lower.
Is this talking about Tunga?
Probably. I think Tunga was pretty high yesterday!
;D
"Heaven let your light shine down." - Collective Soul - Shine
Gold $562
Silver $9.61
Both have taken a huge dive today.
Yeah that's insane. The bigger they are the harder they fall I guess. Anyone have any info on what the central banks are doing right now? There was some disturbance in the ETF world, especially in London (Fractional reserve frauds?!)... Also, I highly doubt it, but what if the FR is actually "having" to stoop down to the level of having to do something about inflation for once, at least just long enough to put the wool back over people's eyes. Given their history that is next to impossible, but stranger things have happened I guess. The indicator: Have prices changed at all for anyone here in terms of consumer goods? I haven't been buying things very much lately (need better work :(), so I'm no expert at this moment.
Everytime the fed raises interest rates (something much needed) Gold and heavy mettles take a dive -- but they clime back up pretty quickly.
Tracy
Ok, I'm going to be the newbie dumb bunny that doesn't really understand how all this works. Can someone explain?
I should say going into this that I don't trust or have money in the stock market, I put all excess funds into paying off the mortgage, and we try to buy a couple of ounces of silver (mostly one ounce numismatic coins) every month. I don't scrutinize silver prices because I am holding silver for the very long haul...the only way I'd cash the coins in would be to buy food in some Mad Max future I don't even want to contemplate.
I can understand people switching their holdings from stocks to precious metals when it looks like the stock market is going to tank. I can understand people investing in precious metals instead of the stock market or banks when they think the value of their regular paper dollars is going to tank. I'm pretty clear that when a lot of people want to buy something (ie move investments to precious metals) the price goes up. Sometimes alot.
What I don't understand is why the stock market is going down (erasing all the gains for 2006 to date) AND the price of precious metals is going down (the demand for precious metals is less so that price dives?). So where is all that money going? Why are precious metals going down?
It is possible the Barclay's Bank has bought all the gold and silver they plan to buy for those 2 funds they began. I forget what they are called. It was a huge amount they were purchasing over time.
Aluminum, copper, lead, nickel, zinc, palladium, platinum and rhodium are all down. They all peaked about the 10th or 11th of May.
The stock market hasn't really "tanked". Precious metals gain strongly in a time of crisis. We're not their yet.
So right now, they fluctuate based on varying demand. Institutional investors control a lot of that. Also, there's a lot of trading on the currency markets now, which means that people will dump their precious metals if another currency seems to be gaining steam (relative to the metals). This is all day to day transactions.
Gold currently trading at around $610, and I would love to have some solar collectors on my roof!
$812/1oz
(http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au00-pres.gif)
This crash is happening as slowly as a galaxy being swallowed by a black hole. On the other hand, now the stock market looks like it is ready to go bye-bye.
Repent now if you're still invested in the U.S. Otherwise, grab some popcorn and watch the fireworks.
Why did foreign markets fair that well?
That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes, an aeroplane and Lenny Bruce is not afraid.
Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn - world serves its own needs, dummy serve your own needs.
Feed it off an aux speak, grunt, no, strength, Ladder start to clatter with fear fight down height.
Wire in a fire, representing seven games, a government for hire and a combat site.
Left of west and coming in a hurry with the furies breathing down your neck.
Team by team reporters baffled, trumped, tethered cropped.
Look at that low playing! Fine, then.
Uh oh, overflow, population, common food, but it'll do.
Save yourself, serve yourself.
World serves its own needs, listen to your heart bleed dummy with the rapture and the revered and the right, right.
You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright light, feeling pretty psyched.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
Six o'clock - TV hour. Don't get caught in foreign towers.
Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself churn.
Locking in, uniforming, book burning, blood letting.
Every motive escalate. Automotive incinerate.
Light a candle, light a votive. Step down, step down.
Watch your heel crush, crushed, uh-oh, this means no fear cavalier.
Renegade steer clear!
A tournament, tournament, a tournament of lies.
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
The other night I dreamt of knives, continental drift divide.
Mountains sit in a line, Leonard Bernstein. Leonid Brezhnev, Lenny Bruce and Lester Bangs.
Birthday party, cheesecake, jelly bean, boom!
You symbiotic, patriotic, slam book neck, right? Right.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it. can't I have some time alone?
It's the end of the world as we know it can't I have some time alone? and I feel fine...fine...
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it. can't I have some time alone?
It's the end of the world as we know it can't I have some time alone? and I feel fine...fine...
Politicians and the Fed avoid the impending economic meltdown yet again by debasing the U.S. dollar yet further.
I am constantly astounded by the extent to which today's dominant worldview differs from reality, and by the willingness of the world to trust and follow the U.S. economy like lemmings.
I pray that dawn will come soon, and the light of truth will reveal this nightmare of lies.
Can't make the heavily in debt middle class constituents unhappy.
remember the good old days when you could buy some gold for $500?
Quote from: Russell Kanning on February 21, 2008, 06:46 PM NHFT
remember the good old days when you could buy some gold for $500?
Good old days? Hell, that was last year or two! It's really going downhill fast now.
I think the FED is out of the picture, the core CPI jumped... so lowering rates is rather risky going forward.
Quote from: error on February 21, 2008, 06:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on February 21, 2008, 06:46 PM NHFT
remember the good old days when you could buy some gold for $500?
Good old days? Hell, that was last year or two! It's really going downhill fast now.
that was part of the joke .... just like how fast gas has gone up
The two are intertwined somewhat. Middle Eastern countries and Russia tend to place high value on gold.
Gas and gold have stayed the same. Both are priced in dollars, and it's the dollar that has tanked.
Priced in dollars means nothing... they aren't directly connected.
I see this argument repeatedly, but it doesn't hold water. If it did everything priced in US$ would go up, and viewed from a foreign currency the price of gold and oil has still risen.
The debasing of the US$ through 'soft money' (credit) is only one part of the equation.
When you see a gold/oil chart they diverge several years ago. Even comparing oil priced in each currency shows dramatic differences.
Gold $997.5 :o
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSWEN447620080313?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews
U.S. gold futures rallied to a record high of $1,000 an ounce on Thursday, fueled by a combination of a weakening dollar, strong investment demand and inflation fears due to rising crude oil prices.
At 8:27 a.m. EDT, the active contract for April delivery was up $17.30 or 1.7 percent at $997.70 an ounce. Just minutes earlier, it had hit an all-time high of $1,000 on the COMEX division of the New York Mercantile Exchange.
Gold over $1000, believers in the Fed are asked to please panic in an orderly fashion toward the exits.
;D ;D ;D
I realize that I may be a junkie about commodities. (Looking at charts on a Sunday afternoon? Go outside or something!)
Anyway, is anyone else watching this? This is not a curve which bodes well for the equities and bond markets on Monday.
Got Gold?
There might be blood on wall street today.
Gold Hits Fresh Record Highs at $1,030
Not news now, but Sunday evening the investment window on my monitor flashed the news the Fed has cut the discount rate a quarter point. But I think the real news was Friday night after the markets closed on the Bear Stearns buyout offer.
None of this is real news.
Wait til gold hits $10K...lol.
Gold $1495
Silver $43.25
my the $ has fallen these last few years
No!......No!.....Gold & Silver have just, magically gone up!
It's the speculators! It's the hoarders! Confiscate all the gold and silver!
Gold $1502
Silver 44.46 :o
Quote from: Kat Kanning on April 20, 2011, 04:16 AM NHFT
Gold $1502
Silver 44.46 :o
I think I told people it was stupid to buy silver at $15/oz. :-\
Silver up over $46 today.
I wonder if the Liberty Dollar guys were still mintin' ...... would it say $50 or $100?
It's at $46.56 now, so I guess it'd have to mint at more than $50.
Silver $47.80
Gold $1526
Wow.
Ya can't eat it though. I hope folks buying it can use it for buying food and stufh.
Gold has been highly desired for centuries. Can't imagine that changing.
Gold $1535
Silver 49.30
| | Gold | | Silver |
04/27/2010 | | $1,152.25 | | $18.16 |
04/27/2011 | | $1,527.30 | | $47.70 |
% Change | | 32.55% | | 162.67% |
Gold Bid: 1,605.10 Ask: 1,606.10
Silver Bid: 40.60 Ask: 40.65
my how the mighty dollar has fallen
Quote from: Pat McCotter on July 18, 2011, 05:18 PM NHFT
Gold Bid: 1,605.10 Ask: 1,606.10
Silver Bid: 40.60 Ask: 40.65
It's crazy, considering the title of this thread. I wish I'd bought a bunch of $470 gold just 6 years ago. At the time, I considered it a ridiculous price, probably an artificial peak caused by panic.
Duh. :-[
Clicking back to the first page made me wonder where Michael Fisher and Caleb (the commie clown) are now.
Caleb got married in LA ..... Mike was going to school to become a jail chaplain