I've been involved in libertarian causes and efforts for almost thirty years... perhaps the biggest obstacle to advancing the cause are libertarians themselves. They often annoy me and I'm their ally. The real test for me is if I can explain the situation to a non kool-aid drinking friend or relative. Some, such as Lauren or Russell's imprisonment, gained sympathy and moved people toward our cause. Others I can't even figure out myself what the fuck they are doing.
Typically (but not always) a single male with no one that depends on him for support. Has all the answers, although 2 years ago the answers were different.
Examples of
"libertarian flash"
When talking to someone that is concerned for what will happen to poor children... "Fuck em let em starve!"
"I'm purer than thou." He says with a smug smirk on his face, as he prepares to file his 1040 form.
They can't seem to find enough evil in the world to attempt to correct... "Hey you minarchist ally, let me show you how you are evil." As he drives away you can see the fading Ron Paul sticker on his car.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 17, 2009, 09:32 AM NHFT
When talking to someone that is concerned for what will happen to poor children... "Fuck em let em starve!"
Not disagreeing with your rant here, but this particular response I see as part of a progression in "thinking". We, epecially those of us who went thru public school, were bombarded with such pro-government, "oh, it's for the children" muck, that I think we tend to over-react to the other extreme in an attempt to break the conditioning. Does that make sense? Doesn't make it a good thing to do, but maybe understandable in some small way.
Kool-Aid quenches thirst and has enriched vitamins. When people drink it their lives are improved by their thirst being quenched and they'll waste away without vitamins
Why do you want people to die?
Unsarcastically, though, I commiserate with a lot of what you said. So many flashers seem to totally forget the fact that they themselves had to take their own walk to Canossa to sort out their own contradictory beliefs; and likely still have some to sort. Being called evil (or minarchist or statist, which is just a epithet in some circles) didn't help them at that time, but for some reason it'll help the person they're calling evil.
As opposed to...
I see a future where the money that the government won't be forcibly taking from people will be available to help truly needy kids. etc.
Instead some people decide to show their flash by taking the diametrically opposed position.
I know that my family has drifted away and I suspect it is the same for others.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 17, 2009, 10:34 AM NHFT
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 17, 2009, 09:32 AM NHFT
When talking to someone that is concerned for what will happen to poor children... "Fuck em let em starve!"
Not disagreeing with your rant here, but this particular response I see as part of a progression in "thinking". We, epecially those of us who went thru public school, were bombarded with such pro-government, "oh, it's for the children" muck, that I think we tend to over-react to the other extreme in an attempt to break the conditioning. Does that make sense? Doesn't make it a good thing to do, but maybe understandable in some small way.
Quote from: Praeteridiot on November 17, 2009, 10:38 AM NHFT
Unsarcastically, though, I commiserate with a lot of what you said. So many flashers seem to totally forget the fact that they themselves had to take their own walk to Canossa to sort out their own contradictory beliefs; and likely still have some to sort. Being called evil (or minarchist or statist, which is just a epithet in some circles) didn't help them at that time, but for some reason it'll help the person they're calling evil.
:)
I have seen an orthodoxy develop...
I assume some of it is just that people often, when they first get into a new idea, can be annoying with their presentation... I know I have been guilty of that.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 17, 2009, 10:34 AM NHFT
We, epecially those of us who went thru public school, were bombarded with such pro-government, "oh, it's for the children" muck, that I think we tend to over-react to the other extreme in an attempt to break the conditioning. Does that make sense? Doesn't make it a good thing to do, but maybe understandable in some small way.
In addition Kat... You are someone that tries to positively influence the world around you. You have more action than words, and are attempting to live the change you would like to see. :)
I wouldn't be involved if not for you and Russell's efforts.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 17, 2009, 09:32 AM NHFT
I've been involved in libertarian causes and efforts for almost thirty years... perhaps the biggest obstacle to advancing the cause are libertarians themselves. They often annoy me and I'm their ally. The real test for me is if I can explain the situation to a non kool-aid drinking friend or relative. Some, such as Lauren or Russell's imprisonment, gained sympathy and moved people toward our cause. Others I can't even figure out myself what the fuck they are doing.
Typically (but not always) a single male with no one that depends on him for support. Has all the answers, although 2 years ago the answers were different.
Examples of
"libertarian flash"
When talking to someone that is concerned for what will happen to poor children... "Fuck em let em starve!"
"I'm purer than thou." He says with a smug smirk on his face, as he prepares to file his 1040 form.
They can't seem to find enough evil in the world to attempt to correct... "Hey you minarchist ally, let me show you how you are evil." As he drives away you can see the fading Ron Paul sticker on his car.
I'm guilty of pretty much all of this. I don't remember ever telling people who are concerned with poor kids to "let them starve" but I have often questioned what those people have done themselves for poor kids that do exist under the current paradigm.
I do consider the position I take to be the most peaceful, and I often become frustrated with the 'peace and love' statist friends who play the grateful dead, wear tyedye and preach peace and collect their government checks and slap Obama stickers on their cars. I'm often on the forums, speaking my mind, and in the context of the discussions I'm positive I come across abrasive to others. I have tried to work on this or to keep quiet. Sometimes things really get to me and it shows. I often point out in libertarian circles the problems I have with the philosophy of minarchy, even though I was once a minarchist and a statist. Of course, this is tied to the internet. I can't remember ever being anything but cordial to minarchist allies/friends. I can't say the same about statists. Lately I've been trying to point out behaviors that are evil as opposed to the people. I've realized that it's the behavior I have a problem with, and I'm not the best at trying to express my opinion in a manner as to successfully persuade them to my side.
I'm a single male with all kinds of answers and no one to rely on me yet. I fit your description. I understand how it can be counter-productive to the efforts of others who are doing what they can. I speak online and have done little to act on my beliefs. The people around me have become understanding of the fact that I'm "confused" "crazy" "insane" and "evil"
I appreciate your post because it is one of the many things lately that has gotten me to stop and think about what I say and do before I "flash" or to just keep quiet.
Hanging out with people that understand your tension over these things is one of the good things about connecting here.
Humility is a rare and admirable trait. 8) My only real flaw is my modesty. ;D
I agree that some libertarians enjoy riling up the masses rather than persuading them. Sometimes though it is almost irresistible to do so. I was talking to a nun the other day and she was a huge Obama supporter, so I asked her why. She said "because he is a Democrat." I replied that that was insufficient reason to like someone, what was it about him specifically that she liked. She said something about he inspired her. I then rattled off a number of the promises he had made that I actually would have liked him to keep such as end the war, transparency etc. none of which he had done so I asked for an instance of anything that he had done that was admirable. She started in on healthcare; being a doctor, I explained how the plan would make things far worse and how the free-market solutions were much better, how government has screwed up everything it ever did. She had no cogent reply and started yelling "You're an anarchist, you're an anarchist" as if that was the worst possible thing a person could be. I said, "actually, I am more of a minarchist, and proud of it."
Interesting reaction!
Quote from: jerryswife on November 18, 2009, 09:27 AM NHFT
She had no cogent reply and started yelling "You're an anarchist, you're an anarchist" as if that was the worst possible thing a person could be. I said, "actually, I am more of a minarchist, and proud of it."
Maybe she meant You're the Anti-Christ! ;D
You left out the "macho"!
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:6ViaaT8U8py_uM:http://olympia.fortunecity.com/stonecold/443/savage.jpg)
It's Libertarian Macho Flash!!
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 17, 2009, 09:32 AM NHFT... perhaps the biggest obstacle to advancing the cause are libertarians themselves. They often annoy me and I'm their ally.
Very interesting, Tom. I've also been noticing this for a very long time and have lately been mentioning it. We must be on the same wavelength because I have been thinking about starting a similar thread. My thread might have been a bit more inclusive however.
I think that the libertarian "macho" flash thing is just the tip of the iceberg. It sits there out in the open --- on display even --- but, the problem is much, much, bigger.
The problem is so big that I sometimes wonder if it can be overcome. I know it can be.
I think there is only one way and I think you know that way. It is "Closer to the Heart."
kat flashed me today
i have been accused of being a libertarian
macho
and that a do libertarian macho flashing
i also am considered not to be a libertarian by others
not macho enough or just a wimp
:)
i even have and might do more soon ..... cooperating with the evil government
hey roger ..... if you are not ready to name names .... then anton, me and the boys at the lib, macho, flash group are going to write you a very sternly worded letter
;D
I have a hard time feeling menaced by the Cardinal... I think that is one of his attributes.
A certain purity of motive makes a big difference in my opinion. So seem to be more focused on attention seeking for ego purposes...
I agree Roger.
It seems like people are more interested in showing off to others in the freedom movement to get social credibility than really trying to work on changing things for the better. We have seen the libertarian macho flash, the good activist who steals and mooches off of others, the attention whores all screaming look at me and the Internet hypocrite who alienates people with the do as I say not how I live. These people are all slowing us down and hurting the image of all the good people are doing. When the public only sees the poorly executed antics of the movement they miss all the good stuff going on.
I wish more people lived by the principles they spout off.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 17, 2009, 09:32 AM NHFT
Others I can't even figure out myself what the fuck they are doing.
Glad I'm not the only one. :dontknow:
When I saw the subject line and author, I thought the topic was going to be lawncare in Vermont.
I cannot help but think that the flash has something to do with men establishing a pecking order among themselves. I've seen similar behavior happen whenever males spend too much time together. It often manifests physically, such as wrestling each other or by establishing an order of who can do "pain pranks" (punches, nipple twists, etc.) on who.
When this order cannot be established physically, it manifests in other, sometimes strange behavior. I think it is primarily established through insulting each other and pyschological abuse. In this arena, a clever, funny, and insulting person has an edge.
Among intellectual circles, I think it tends to manifest through debate and attempts to be intellectually dominant. Libertarians try to out-quote each other or otherwise show off how hard-core they are.
I have been guilty of participating in all three types of sparring (physical, pyschological, and intellectual) in an attempt to be as high as possible in the pecking order among a group. I am not proud of it, but it is difficult not to participate in it, especially when you have little choice to exit the group (such as being stuck with others at high school) and you see the total abuse suffered by the person on the bottom of the pecking order.
I think you're onto something, Jacobus. I think a big part of the evolution of mankind is getting past these baser instincts for better methods of social interaction.