:soapbox: I don't understand why many folks here want to tear down the Libertarian Party. The LP has embodied very pure principles. At least if candidates are not elected then at least your neighbors hopefully are introduced to another viewpoint that in its essence is respected by thinkers; and you have taken a good stand.
The work performed in the defense of individual rights as carried by the LP, and that I would posit, is what brought so many of us together in our social network. Liberty as a social policy is almost impossible to achieve and any progress is so fragile. I think this blog membership here needs to a lot more careful. What is the great result when you throw away the LP?
I came to the FS and have been mystified that the LP is abandoned by the prevailing group of so many on this board. Now I see in our numbers it is possible to resurrect the LP in it's framework of purity, but instead less thought out alternatives are propped up and doomed to fail.
Are we competing to be more absurd and nihilistic with joking about the Kindergarten Party? This appears proposed as a serious idea but no mention of who or what will be the Kindegarten Teacher, or wait, what about the Pirates party, that is really great. Why turn to TV cult personalities such as Jessie Ventura? So easy but ineffective and probably destructive.
If ideas like this cannot be debated here this blog is no better than bad religion.
I haven't moved yet so take my opinion for what it is/not worth but I prefer to direct my energy into self-improvement, education and black/grey market trading (ie agorism). I just find it to be more productive and satisfying than politics.
Purity and politics are opposites and can not exist together.
Wanting to have power over people so that they can be free is also a contradiction.
The Libertarian Party is self defeating, it may gain power but then it will wield power over people. It has no hope of obtaining it's goals.
PattyLee, this board isn't representative of FSP members or movers. There are plenty of folks, including FSP movers, who are trying to restore the LPNH.
On the other hand, it's easy to understand the disillusionment. If NH, the state celebrated as closest to libertarian, can make hard-core FSP early movers throw up their hands and exclaim "Why bother?!?", I don't know that the LP has much future anywhere.
2 words describe why the LP is worthless: Bob Barr
Quote from: thinkliberty on December 22, 2009, 10:30 AM NHFT
2 words describe why the LP is worthless: Bob Barr
I got two better: Mike Gravel
QuoteOK, you guys. Are you against the principles of the LP
If the LP had, and kept, principle, I wouldn't be against them. They lost principle in the drive to be elected. Nobody who considered themselves an original Libertarian would ACCEPT being elected. Anybody who claims to be since then FAILS.
Quoteyou lost focus on what you should be active for?
I'm younger than you.
The Libertarian, for all of my life, has lacked principle. You can debate Lloyd, you chat with other people about "what has been lost" but that arguement fails on me.
The Libertarian Party has NEVER stood for principle in my lifetime. And you know what, I'm just fine with that.
In Elementry School, I was tought to touch type. I wasn't taught cursive. Comparing to people a few years older than me, and a few years younger, I realize I'm on the divide..
The Internet has ALWAYS, as far as I know, been a more effective engine for honesty than the LP.
The internet has ALWAYS, been a more principled platform for non-interference with other people's lives.
The FSP has ALWAYS created more effective means to show why individual liberties are more important than X (X = X = Constitutions. X= Freedom. X = Anything the LP might toss out to confuse opponents to getting elected)
The LP was a great idea 40 years ago. Today, we have the internet. Today, we have a network of activists here in NH who are working towards Liberty without central direction.
We don't NEED the LP, and given their state, we shouldn't WANT them.
We, us activists, have evolved beyond the need for the LP.
Have you?
I witnessed the funeral for the LP.
I saw a man weep bitterly for its passing.
I didn't know the deceased very well at all.
Year after year people invested time, money and (most costly) enthusiasm... 30 years worth, not much was acheived...
Those resources spent to make a feature film... it would still have value.
What are the reasons folks will continue to fund the organization each election cycle?
Another question to consider is "Who wins even when a candidate loses?"
The people seeking power get to be in charge, even if it is only a small group.
Participation in the political contests has been a huge waste of resources... The "salesmen" keep dusting off and shining up the same crap and trying to sell it ever four years.
I got tired of being treated like a rube.
I'm not sure why my name was invoked here. I've never been a member of the National LP. I was excited about its formation because I thought that small 'l' libertarian philosophy would 'trickle down' into the mainstream through political debates and media coverage. I worked on the formation of the CT LP for the same reason.
I was mistaken. Say what you want about the media being left or right. The one thing the media does and has done consistently, for more than 35 years, is ignore the Libertarian Parties.
I (actually used to say that an LP presidential candidate would have to get arrested to get any media coverage. That idea went south when Badnarik got arrested.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 23, 2009, 06:54 AM NHFT
I'm not sure why my name was invoked here.
Careful research has determined it is all your fault! ;D
The eleventh commandment? Thou shalt not invoke the name of Lloyd in vain. :-X
He didn't invoke it in vain. He invoked it in Grafton. Lincoln didn't die in vain either.
I can say, as perhaps the youngest here at age 17, that the LP is a good idea, at least in principle, but I fear that any significant gains made by them will just dilute those principles and make them more "mainstream" and "watered down", make it more into a small government Republican party. Though I am quite disillusioned by politics at this point I will probably vote for the LP next election.
But I believe the nonpolitical and civil disobedience aspect of the NH liberty movement is a lot more productive and effective at achieving its goals, it is also much less susceptible to corruption and perversion of principle.
Personally, having been very involved in politics when I thought politics could fix things, I think the LP really just isn't going to make it. Too many people that are not involved honestly believe that the LP exists for the "long-haired hippies" and to legalize drugs for the majority to ever vote LP (again, from what I've seen). Its existed for decades now and isn't making any significant progress. So if you're the type to believe in working within the system, I don't think the LP is going to be the solution, there's just too many negative connotations with too many people.
So if you're convinced on working within the system, well, I don't know the vehicle you can use.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on December 23, 2009, 03:51 AM NHFT
I witnessed the funeral for the LP.
I saw a man weep bitterly for its passing.
I didn't know the deceased very well at all.
And speaking as the man who weeped bitterly, the LP nationally is a mess, and not fixable easily, the LPNH is a mess due to good-intentioned people who don't want to build a political party.
I've given up on LP reforming, I tried and failed. I'm planning a new party... join me (and others)!
The above bit of politics was brought to you by the letters L, P and the number 5.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled NH Underground already in progress.
Quote from: PattyLee loves dogs on December 22, 2009, 09:05 AM NHFT
..I don't understand why many folks here want to tear down the Libertarian Party. The LP has embodied very pure principles.
It's probably because most libertarians here now perceive the opposite: that the LP has betrayed pure principles (which was predicted by those libertarians that opposed the creation of a party named "Libertarian" at the outset, since that embodied a contradiction.)
Libertarians are opposed to parties getting control of governments to tell other people what to do. Libertarians are in favor of freedom of people from oppressive state institutions, not joining in with oppressive state institutions to make them more efficient, businesslike (common conservative refrain).
Quote from: PattyLee loves dogs on December 22, 2009, 09:05 AM NHFT
At least if candidates are not elected then at least your neighbors hopefully are introduced to another viewpoint that in its essence is respected by thinkers; and you have taken a good stand.
Well-intentioned though this comment is, it's one argument for the party that was propounded in the early 70's when the debate about "whether libertarians should have a party" raged. For lack of a better term, it's the "educational effect" argument. It went like this basically: "We know we'll never get anyone elected, but we'll use the platform it provides us to get the message about freedom out, since we'll get coverage because we're a political party running candidates for election." The obvious contradiction in this is that if you're teaching people, you're teaching them an anti-libertarian message, hence confusing people about your principles. You're teaching, in effect that "You acknowledge it's okay for the state to have power over us, for us to vote by majority on who has power over us, and that we must accept the results if some oppressive fascist gains power over us in the majoritarian selection process. You teach that "We must stay between the lines, we must play by the state's rules, we must beg from the state the right to be a player in the game (elections), etc., etc." I won't bore you with more.
This argument against a "Libertarian" party was intellectually won in the early 70's and a radical caucus was formed to disband the party, but couldn't defeat the unprincipled "reformers" that carried the day in that vote. The RC walked out and the LP went on to completely dilute the libertarian message, pollute the very meaning of the word libertarian in usage and to waste the time, money and energies of "libertarians" for the next 2 generations. The LP was seen by the libertarians as an attack by the state on the freedom movement, since it would have this predictable result in diverting efforts into a black hole, while disillusioning the activists involved into thinking they were "doing" something.
See the pamphlet: "Our Enemy, the Party" (http://bradspangler.com/blog/archives/1073) for more on the opinion of libertarians re the "Libertarian" Party.
Quote from: PattyLee loves dogs on December 22, 2009, 09:05 AM NHFT
The work performed in the defense of individual rights as carried by the LP, and that I would posit, is what brought so many of us together in our social network.
I am glad that a lot of us found each other, but your statement presumes that no other efforts would have brought us together.
I agree that many have met and networked through meeting each other at LP events. Many have moved on because they finally caught on to the anti-libertarian and wasteful nature of the LP and retained their friendship ties.
What is needed is other ways for us to find each other and network. Many different approaches are taken, and, if you percieve this to be a real need and a real boon to the movement, you should seek out other approaches or innovate on how to accomplish this social agglomeration effect in a way that's consistent with your libertarian principles.
Quote from: PattyLee loves dogs on December 22, 2009, 09:05 AM NHFT
Liberty as a social policy is almost impossible to achieve and any progress is so fragile. I think this blog membership here needs to a lot more careful. What is the great result when you throw away the LP?
A return to principled actions.
Quote from: PattyLee loves dogs on December 22, 2009, 09:05 AM NHFT
I came to the FS and have been mystified that the LP is abandoned by the prevailing group of so many on this board. Now I see in our numbers it is possible to resurrect the LP in it's framework of purity, but instead less thought out alternatives are propped up and doomed to fail.
Are we competing to be more absurd and nihilistic with joking about the Kindergarten Party? This appears proposed as a serious idea but no mention of who or what will be the Kindegarten Teacher, or wait, what about the Pirates party, that is really great. Why turn to TV cult personalities such as Jessie Ventura? So easy but ineffective and probably destructive.
If ideas like this cannot be debated here this blog is no better than bad religion.
The consensus (well, the decision of the owners) of this forum was to stop allowing our pro-freedom principles to be opposed actively on this board by the anti-principles of those in favor of parliamentary politics "for liberty". It confused and contradicted the pro-freedom messages.
I'm with you in having disdain for those who spend their energies with joke "parties" - There ARE many here among us who feel that life is but a joke (Dylan). I suppose it serves as a self-entertainment purpose for them, perhaps a release from the difficult realities out there.
PS: The Pirate Party in Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party) (3rd largest party there) have actually gotten people elected to Parliament; Jesse Ventura has created a show that has gotten the highest ratings ever for TruTV (formerly Court TV), "Conspiracy Theory" (http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/). Both greater successes than the LP.
I prefer parties with lots of beer and women, and the LP was sorely lacking in both. ;D
I appreciate the thoughtful and the funny comments concerning the plight of the Libertarian Party. Your time and patience to explain these matters to me is appreciated. This input is helpful as I am reevaluating my goals and use of my energies as we approach the New Year. Abandonment of the electoral process is understandable within the context of Libertarianism. I am at this moment considering this. I just have to ponder the consequences of this path if more of us take it.
Certainly it is tragic to plunder one's life in pursuit of illusions but on the other hand, among such committed activists can hope for libertarian policy be realized within our lifetime? Hopefully, our activists do find their unfettered individualism and may not have to endure so much derision and jail. Just how to achieve more liberty? Just by civil disobedience and protest?
I agree that a lot of time, Libertarian Party work was a monumental waste of time. Also there were cases of unscrupulous individuals who abused their standing in the LP for their own gain but these problems could have been remedied without abandonment.
Having a space to vote on the ballot was an affirmation of my conviction, winning was not my expectation. Providing a Libertarian alternative position to counter the established destructive policies was often appreciated. Educational results were achieved.
There could not exist a more practical but virtuous code to base one's life than that which is signed to become a member of the LP: non-initiation of force or fraud to achieve political, or social goals.
Should the LP be credited for the growth and influence of liberty awareness? For those of us brought through public and parochial schools there would have been no place to entertain these ideas. The internet has been an opportunity for a major expansion of awareness but is this enough for people who have no foundation to weigh ideas?
Despite the design of the branches of government to serve as a check and balance in defense of liberty, the individual has not been protected from an over arching state. Bills violating individual liberty and property rights are passed yielding to favor special interests. Courts frequently abdicate their intended role as a check and balance protecting the individual against imperious legislation.
The last defense of the individual against, the juror citizen is currently defended by one of many Libertarian ideas, FIJA .
The Institute for Justice I am sure was inspired by the LP now defends those abused by the state; example includes eminent domain abuse. IJ is compelling the courts to serve their intended role in defense of the individual, case by case.
There are any contributions to my own growth which I learned about through engagement with the LP: Other libertarian spin offs were of important influence such as the publication "Reason" produced by the Reason Foundation.
Activists who reject politics may not be able to appreciate those liberty and free state candidates and representatives working within the current system, like (R) State Rep. Jenn Coffey. These representatives could be accepted by libertarians. I don't believe that these representatives (politicians) have been acting wrong and in fact have advanced your causes within their influence. They receive a paltry salary for their long hours of work and having to go to Concord to vote "NO" so much.
I am watching the work of Ron Paul and the candidacy of Rand Paul. If Ron was not in office, there would be little counter to big government solutions; and there may be some hope from his bill which passed to audit the Federal Reserve. I am grateful for his involvement. I would aspire to be like him. I do not believe he deserves the derisive attitudes that all politicians are bad.
I hope that with the New Year our growth in activism will not be at such great expense to our selves especially with out some eventual hoped for results. If no one from our side votes, the other side wins and with civil disobedience predictably will be violence for self defense or by riot. Ghandi will not help here as violence was instigated by his crowd to achieve his goals; the movie about him failed to portray this.
Thanks Donnely for link to the New Libertarian Manifesto.
Quote from: SethCohn on December 23, 2009, 09:54 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on December 23, 2009, 03:51 AM NHFT
I witnessed the funeral for the LP.
I saw a man weep bitterly for its passing.
I didn't know the deceased very well at all.
And speaking as the man who weeped bitterly, the LP nationally is a mess, and not fixable easily, the LPNH is a mess due to good-intentioned people who don't want to build a political party.
I've given up on LP reforming, I tried and failed. I'm planning a new party... join me (and others)!
The above bit of politics was brought to you by the letters L, P and the number 5.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled NH Underground already in progress.
The Seth Party?