Is it possible to buy LDs at below-face without becoming an Associate? In other words, are there any LD Associates out there willing to negotiate a deal on buying LDs on behalf of a non-Associate, and splitting the difference in some manner?
There are Liberties available at Liberty Auctions.
http://www.liberty-auctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=101200
Mike
Hm. Those are "digital" liberty dollars, so we're adding one conversion to the process. Additionally, that is 1. one auction for 2. one batch of 2,000 digital LDs - I had a different mix of LDs in mind. Lastly, that auction appears to be the only one for LD-related stuff on that site.
Thanks, but that's not what I was looking for.
I'll send you a PM with some ideas penguin.
People often offer the hard currency for a good discount on Liberty-Auctions as well. You'll see various certificates as well, but not very often.
Penguin - I've been thinking about possibly becoming an 'associate' so I may be able to work with you on that in the future.
I bought $20 worth of Liberty Dollars at the Forum and I'm very intrigued by them. But I have a question and maybe I'm too dumb to understand the info on libertydollar.org (http://www.libertydollar.org) - Silver went from a $10 base to a $20 base. So how exactly did people profit from this? It looks like if you had a $10 certificate at the $10 base you could redeem it for $20 at the $20 base? What if you had coins? A $10 coin could be redeemed for $20?
I thought I had a basic understanding of economics. Maybe not! :-\
Any form of currency has got to be better than the Federal Reserve Notes we currently use...
From what I've read on LD's site, when they "moved up" to the $20 valuation, all $10 certificates could be sent in to be exchanged for $20 certificates free of charge, while the $10 silver pieces needed to be sent back to be "reminted" for a limited-time fee of $1.50 per piece. The actual inherant value of the notes didn't change, but the value of our fiat US dollars declined to the pre-established mark which triggered a re-evaluation of the LD/USD exchange rate/face value.
This is a basic "problem" when dealing with multiple curencies: their value fluctuates relative to eachother. This *is* actually an issue with USDs and goods in US stores, but isn't usually obvious due to either inertia or gov't subsidies.
Penguins is correct. The "profit" comes from two places:
1: Getting LDs at a discount/spending at face value (If people choose. It says "NEGOTIABLE" on there for a reason!)
2: A move-up, at least for a period of time. Check this example: Silver spot price is 18.50 and the "base" is $20. The price goes over $20 for 45+ days, and the base then moves up to $50. Until the spot price hits the same differential (in that case $46.25), the spot:face value ratio is higher than when you bought it originally, meaning that you're getting more buying power for your bullion. Does this make sense? Put more simply, you get more benefit from the old base to the midpoint then you do from the midpoint to the next base.
I became a Liberty Associate when silver was around 7.50-8 spot, Liberties for LA's was pretty close to face($10). The best 'profit' came in eALD where ,at the move-up, your account doubled and there was no redemption charges. Of course, the only thing that changed was the face($20) you still have the same number of silver ounces. The real benefit was the discount at which you bought ALDs. Prior to move-up $9.95/ALD, which is 50% of the $20 face ALD. After the move up the associate discount returned to 20% ($16). After move-up lots of deals were available priced a bit over spot which had reached $11-$15.
Quote from: penguins4me on February 24, 2007, 06:59 AM NHFT
Is it possible to buy LDs at below-face without becoming an Associate? In other words, are there any LD Associates out there willing to negotiate a deal on buying LDs on behalf of a non-Associate, and splitting the difference in some manner?
I started the ALDNBG(American Liberty Dollar National Buyers Group) about five years ago and placed a huge order on behalf of dozens of Redemption Centers and individuals... You can read an old newsletter about it here(http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20021025.htm). I'd have to look back at my paperwork to know an exact number but I believe we put around $30K face(at the $10USD base) into circulation... And... Just to make you cry... We paid $5.32 per piece... Don't you wish you knew then what you know now!
So after it was so hugely successful and everyone knew that all the RCs and others would then be buying incredible amounts that way...
Bernard had to change the model(went from "one tier" to "two tier"...used to be just Redemption Centers but now it's Liberty Associates and RCOs) so we couldn't do the bulk purchases ourselves anymore...
I don't think it was necessarily a bad thing to change the model... But if it had remained the same I would have expected to have put 3 to 5 million in circulation by now...perhaps more...
And that's happened anyways...just with more of the "margin" going back to Bernard and his staff...
I was doing it as a promotional gig and wasn't making a dime on the deal...
But I did get the huge satisfaction of knowing I was getting big amounts into circulation!
So good luck!
I'm in the market for some LDs. The first one who speaks up and can make the April MVP meeting gets my business.
Cathleen
Quote from: cathleeninnh on March 29, 2007, 07:59 AM NHFTI'm in the market for some LDs. The first one who speaks up and can make the April MVP meeting gets my business.
Denise and I will be there. How much do you want, and what denominations?
Joe
Whoa, I have to say there were too many penguins in this thread for me to pay attention to the topic! ;D
...............I felt like I was in Antarctica! :laughing6:
Quote from: raineyrocks on March 30, 2007, 07:59 AM NHFT
Whoa, I have to say there were too many penguins in this thread for me to pay attention to the topic! ;D
True I get powerpenguin and penquins4me mixed up all the time.
buying before the switch up worked well for me in 05. i really made a better killing that way than with any other investment i've ever made. i wish I'd bought more. i suspect it will work out ok for those who do the same preceding the next switchover.
i've found in my world demand for LD's is higher than for silver bullion over the last six months btw. Too bad since I'm low on them now.
There's a good deal on $2,000 eLD right now over here: http://www.liberty-auctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=101241. I've bought from the seller there before and he's honest and prompt, albeit a little strange.... Ask him about his magic cancer cure involving blueberries. 8-)
BTW, the LD is more in demand because it is used as a form of currency, not bullion. Though the LD is *based* on silver and gold, you're dealing with an entirely different demand model.
Indeed. When the :shithitsthefan: it's the LD I expect to see a lot of people spending in their daily transactions. I'd expect to see bullion far less often, and/or for larger transactions.
I've read about Liberty Dollars but I just don't understand anything about them. Do you get coins or a piece of paper? I've read about all kinds of different prices for them, I'm totally confused, can anyone simplify the info for me, please?
If you're an associate, you get LDs cheaper. The price varies. One day you may spend $.93 per dollar, the next $.95. You can get coins or paper. A $20 coin is 1 ounce of silver. A $20 note is basically a receipt for 1 ounce of silver that you can redeem anytime you want. Unlike the government dollars, these are backed by silver (and I believe gold as well). So for every $20 in paper you have, there is 1 ounce of silver stored in a vault, waiting for you to claim it.
Personally I'd just go all coin and at the Liberty Forum the hotel restaurant was accepting coins but not dollars. I don't know if other places only accept one form over the other. And then there are e-liberty dollars, but that's tomorrows' lesson! ;)
Also, check out www.libertydollar.org (http://www.libertydollar.org)
Quote from: raineyrocks on March 31, 2007, 10:05 PM NHFT
I've read about Liberty Dollars but I just don't understand anything about them. Do you get coins or a piece of paper? I've read about all kinds of different prices for them, I'm totally confused, can anyone simplify the info for me, please?
If it is too confusing, you can just live without them.
Quote from: Quantrill on April 01, 2007, 01:37 AM NHFT
If you're an associate, you get LDs cheaper. The price varies. One day you may spend $.93 per dollar, the next $.95. You can get coins or paper. A $20 coin is 1 ounce of silver. A $20 note is basically a receipt for 1 ounce of silver that you can redeem anytime you want. Unlike the government dollars, these are backed by silver (and I believe gold as well). So for every $20 in paper you have, there is 1 ounce of silver stored in a vault, waiting for you to claim it.
Personally I'd just go all coin and at the Liberty Forum the hotel restaurant was accepting coins but not dollars. I don't know if other places only accept one form over the other. And then there are e-liberty dollars, but that's tomorrows' lesson! ;)
Also, check out www.libertydollar.org (http://www.libertydollar.org)
Thanks Quantrill! :) I did read libertydollar.org and it confused me even more. :-\ Here's where my confusion comes in; let's say an ounce of silver is worth $160, so I can actually get 1 liberty dollar that's an ounce of silver for just $20? Also who is it that's backing the paper with coinage?
I don't have any paper notes, but there should be a phone # and URL on the back on where to redeem the paper. I'm assuming the folks at libertydollar.org are backing it but I do not know for sure. That's why I prefer coins cuz then I know that I actually have silver in my possession.
Currently silver is $13.42 an ounce. So your $20 (or a little less if you're an associate) gets you 1 ounce. You'll always be paying more for the coin than silver is worth (because this is Capitalism and they need to make a profit ;)). But it's easier to trade than so-called junk silver, and everybody knows exactly how much silver you have. The coins are only worth what people are willing to pay you for them (like baseball cards for instance. no real value, but some cards sell for $$$$).
So you spent $20 and have an ounce of silver that today is worth $13.42 as a piece of silver. That $20 bill you had is worth nothing (cuz it's backed by basically nothing). Both currencies you can spend as $20 and at least the LDs have some value as silver as well. To me that's why it seems a good idea to go for LDs.
Of course you can't use them everywhere so I wouldn't put all my savings in LDs. Hope this helps!
Wow, that helps me tons! Thanks Quantrill! :D I agree with you I'd rather have the coin too instead of a piece of paper.
Quote from: raineyrocks on April 01, 2007, 11:46 AM NHFT
I agree with you I'd rather have the coin too instead of a piece of paper.
Not to nag, BUT, don't call the Liberty a coin. Big brother owns the word and gets a little grumpy when you call something with real value a coin. Call it a Liberty, a silver, a silver round, or a medallion.
FYI there is a new Liberty Dollar forum starting.
http://www.libertydollarforums.org/ (http://www.libertydollarforums.org/)
The Yahoo list is, well, on Yahoo. :-\
Quote from: IthacaLA on April 01, 2007, 01:54 PM NHFT
Quote from: raineyrocks on April 01, 2007, 11:46 AM NHFT
I agree with you I'd rather have the coin too instead of a piece of paper.
Not to nag, BUT, don't call the Liberty a coin. Big brother owns the word and gets a little grumpy when you call something with real value a coin. Call it a Liberty, a silver, a silver round, or a medallion.
I use the term "piece" myself. We all know very well what it is, but 1984 was 23 years ago 8-) I just redeemed $250 of me eLD for specie and notes in various denominations. I got some friends and relatives interested, so I'm going to leverage the discounts I have by giving it to them at 10% off or so.
I'll accept LD warehouse receipts the same as ounces of silver to which they are claim.
So I'm a little confused as to how using these things works, say if you wanted to pay the pizza man with LDs, what would you say to him? Would you hand him them and see what he did, or what? How would you explain "this is functionally worth $13.42, but I'm giving it to you as $20" to him?
This is functionally worth about 60 cents, but I'm giving it to you as $20.
(http://www.tinotopia.com/log/archive/images/20-specimen.jpg)
Great example, error! :D I, too, prefer actual silver pieces (as opposed to such things as LD deposit certificates, etc.), but the issue is "whom do you trust?" By using paper dollars/FRNs, as error so eloquently stated, you're trusting that a piece of paper which supposedly cost sixty cents to produce will be honored at the face value of twenty dollars... which I suppose it is, but what I consider "twenty dollars" is not actually what "twenty dollars" is, due to constant inflation, as that "twenty dollars" is worth less and less as time goes on.
Quote from: raineyrocksWhoa, I have to say there were too many penguins in this thread for me to pay attention to the topic!
Sorry - I needed a new nondescript nickname and my muse seemed to have taken a no-notice leave of absence... :P
Oh, I understand the logic behind using them. I don't understand how you convince people who've never heard of them to take them.
Quote from: YixilTesiphon on April 01, 2007, 11:49 PM NHFT
Oh, I understand the logic behind using them. I don't understand how you convince people who've never heard of them to take them.
You get actual silver into people's hands first. Once they're comfortable with it (and perhaps have more of it than they think they know what to do with) then people might be more accepting of warehouse receipts.
Quote from: error on April 01, 2007, 09:31 PM NHFT
This is functionally worth about 60 cents, but I'm giving it to you as $20.
(http://www.tinotopia.com/log/archive/images/20-specimen.jpg)
It might be intrinsically worth about $0.60, but
functionally it's worth $20. That is, it's worth "$20" as the rest of the world understands it: twenty U.S. dollars in FRNs.
Give that bill to the pizza guy, and he can deposit in his bank, or trade it for $20 worth of gasoline, or groceries, or movie tickets, or marijuana, or whatever.
But give him a Liberty Dollar marked "$20", and he can't deposit in his bank. His being able to trade it for gasoline, groceries, etc., depends on convincing the recipient that the shiny silver piece is worth "$20" as he's accustomed to understanding it. And when he finds out that the intrinsic silver value --"intrinsic value" being a big selling point for the LD-- is less than $15, he's probably going to be pissed off.
I have no problem trading silver pieces, whether LDs, junk silver, NW Mint rounds, or any other pieces of silver, based on their silver value. But stamping "$20" on one, when a short time ago the same piece was stamped "$10", serves, at the very least, to accommodate fraud, if not outright encourage it.
An ounce of silver is an ounce of silver, and said ounce isn't automatically worth "$
x" as most people understand it.
Kevin
I'm sure KBCraig is already aware of the reasoning behind stamping a face value on a silver piece: convenience. The value of silver pieces in USDs fluctuates wildly, and if the face value of the piece is less than the inherant value, then people will hoard the pieces instead of spending them. Again, case in point: pre-1965 US coins are 90% silver, and are worth *much* more than their face value - they are never used at face value except due to accidents or ignorance.
Someone with an LD is trusting NORFED/whomever for ~$5 over the inherant value of the $20 silver piece they hold. Compare that to trusting the US gov't for $19.40 over the inherant value of the paper piece supposedly costing sixty cents to make.
Also worthy of note: the worth of a LD is "going up" over time, as noted by the changing face values. The worth of a USD is going down over time, as noted by the need for more USDs to buy the same item at a later time.
The only thing I can see going for the USD at present is massive inertia. Oh, yes, and the ease of exchange. In amounts smaller than $10,000, $3,000, or whatever amounts the terr'ists are favoring today.
Quote from: IthacaLA on April 01, 2007, 01:54 PM NHFT
Not to nag, BUT, don't call the Liberty a coin. Big brother owns the word and gets a little grumpy when you call something with real value a coin. Call it a Liberty, a silver, a silver round, or a medallion.
Please do not nag. We can get that anyplace.
It might be useful info that the evil government punishes those that use the work "coin", but why not let each of us decide how to deal with them. :)
A coin is anything made by the manufacturing process known as coining.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on April 02, 2007, 06:52 AM NHFT
A coin is anything made by the manufacturing process known as coining.
Article I
Section 8
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
Quote from: penguins4me on April 01, 2007, 11:33 PM NHFT
Quote from: raineyrocksWhoa, I have to say there were too many penguins in this thread for me to pay attention to the topic!
Sorry - I needed a new nondescript nickname and my muse seemed to have taken a no-notice leave of absence... :P
I was just joking, it's fine!
Quote from: Dreepa on April 02, 2007, 07:58 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on April 02, 2007, 06:52 AM NHFT
A coin is anything made by the manufacturing process known as coining.
Article I
Section 8
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face. It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"
Quote from: Dreepa on April 02, 2007, 07:58 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on April 02, 2007, 06:52 AM NHFT
A coin is anything made by the manufacturing process known as coining.
Article I
Section 8
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
I said 'coin'. Nothing about money.
Originally, it was the same thing. There were no 'bills of credit' ;0
Quote from: penguins4me on April 02, 2007, 04:52 AM NHFTAlso worthy of note: the worth of a LD is "going up" over time, as noted by the changing face values. The worth of a USD is going down over time, as noted by the need for more USDs to buy the same item at a later time.
The LD's are not changing in value. An ounce of silver will buy, today, approximately what an ounce of silver bought a hundred years ago. Similar, to use an example, an ounce of gold would buy a pretty decent men's suit a hundred years ago; oddly enough, an ounce of gold will do the same thing, today.
The only thing changing in value in that equation are the FRN's, and that's what the changing face value on the LD's represents.
However, as several people have posted, accepting silver at significantly above face value is still silly. Not that I might not pay for the convenience of using LD's, since they
are a widely-recognized (at least, as widely as such things are) form of alternative currency. But I would only use them for small transactions. At any larger transaction, the added cost of the LD versus the spot price of silver gets too high.
Joe
Quote from: raineyrocks on March 30, 2007, 07:59 AM NHFT
Whoa, I have to say there were too many penguins in this thread for me to pay attention to the topic! ;D
Well, I guess its good that penguinsscareme (http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?action=profile;u=973) didn't join in, then!
He's your "Buddy with a Truck! (http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=6821.msg118207#msg118207)"
Quote from: MaineShark on April 03, 2007, 04:15 PM NHFT
The LD's are not changing in value. An ounce of silver will buy, today, approximately what an ounce of silver bought a hundred years ago. Similar, to use an example, an ounce of gold would buy a pretty decent men's suit a hundred years ago; oddly enough, an ounce of gold will do the same thing, today.
This isn't entirely true. Spot prices fluctuate regardless of the rate of inflation on any given day (which is presumably constant more or less). We can say, however, that it maintains its value over the long haul, based on monetary and industrial demand. Conversely, fiat currency is a certain failure.
Quote
The only thing changing in value in that equation are the FRN's, and that's what the changing face value on the LD's represents.
However, as several people have posted, accepting silver at significantly above face value is still silly. Not that I might not pay for the convenience of using LD's, since they are a widely-recognized (at least, as widely as such things are) form of alternative currency. But I would only use them for small transactions. At any larger transaction, the added cost of the LD versus the spot price of silver gets too high.
Joe
Fair enough, but as you said, only a super-minority of educated, freedom minded individuals (like 0.000001% of the population) is going to go for that. They don't know what's going on, and don't want to deal with the weight, keeping up with spot prices, lack of banking storage, etc. In this way, the Fed is not a monopoly de jure, but rather de facto, as they make it *soo easy* to play their game, and quite annoying not to, for most people.
Quote from: powerpenguin on April 03, 2007, 06:28 PM NHFTThis isn't entirely true. Spot prices fluctuate regardless of the rate of inflation on any given day (which is presumably constant more or less). We can say, however, that it maintains its value over the long haul, based on monetary and industrial demand. Conversely, fiat currency is a certain failure.
Spot price is not the same as value. Spot price is a result of trading on the currency markets, and does not reflect the value of metals in useful sizes.
Spot price is an indicator of value, but not directly equal to value.
Quote from: powerpenguin on April 03, 2007, 06:28 PM NHFTFair enough, but as you said, only a super-minority of educated, freedom minded individuals (like 0.000001% of the population) is going to go for that. They don't know what's going on, and don't want to deal with the weight, keeping up with spot prices, lack of banking storage, etc. In this way, the Fed is not a monopoly de jure, but rather de facto, as they make it *soo easy* to play their game, and quite annoying not to, for most people.
There's no need to know the spot price and whatnot. Just learn to think in ounces... I will often give people prices in "this much FRN's, or this many ounces of silver," or somesuch, and let them decide...
Joe