I made a few observations about the police at PF'07, based upon my tolerable employment at a cop shop, and a few people independently asked me to record and expand upon my comments.
Although everyone has their own way of dealing with encounters with the police, my own instincts are to minimize the instances where I am acting from a position of weakness, and maximize the instances where I deal with them in a prepared manner, from a position of strength, and at times and places of my own choosing.
Buy Boston T. Party's "You and the Police." I will try to avoid retyping much of what he has to say here.
While sometimes bordering on impossible, try to be calm, logical and reasonable when dealing with mr LEO. What works most effectively for me is to assume the role of someone who is bored my listening to them ramble on about legal BS that I don't think concerns me. If I adopt a bored mentality, I'm less likely to get drawn into an argument, which they are likely to be trying to provoke you into, and I can remain calm and logical.
Don't believe a word that they say. They lie. They like to lie. They get paid to lie so that they can harass you, fine you, cite you, ticket you, regulate you, detain you, arrest you, and control you. Maybe they're not all that way, but the majority are, and even the good ones are apt to unconsciously adopt some of the "us vs them" mentality since they are surrounded by the rest on a daily basis.
Strike a balance in your interaction with them. Although your main goal should be to get away from them as quickly as possible, if they insist on detaining and questioning you, turn every single question into as complicated and as long a process as you can. NEVER volunteer ANY information, and act like you might as well be from Alpha Centauri because you don't understand anything that they're talking about.
NO, you're not aware of anything - you don't know if your paperwork is in order, you don't know what the speed limit is, you don't know how fast you were going, etc.
NO you don't know what the laws or ordinances or regulations are that they are suggesting exist - and could they please show you a written copy of the "law" that you are alleged to have broke.
Cops will often invent laws out of thin air, improperly apply laws that really exist, or have no idea what the hell they're talking about at all. I like to shove a written copy of any laws that I'm likely to get harassed about in their face and ask, "oh, do you mean THIS law?" They turn white, freeze, stutter, become unsure about their Godlike stature and infallability, etc. You must be a lawyer or someone well connected. Always ask if you are free to go.
If a policeman asks you to exit your vehicle, lock the door behind you. The only "legitimate" reason a cop has to search your car is if you are in it or have access to the interior where a weapon or other threat to their safety is, otherwise they need to articulate probable cause that you've committed a crime - which you should ask to see a written copy of the law they allege you are breaking.
Never physically get in their way or touch them in any manner, but NEVER agree with anything that they want to do or consent to allow them to do anything without LOUD verbal protest. If there is a camera in the patrol car, it is probably recording audio from a mike on the officer. You want your objections to be unmistakable if you are going to deal with the situation in court.
Your objective is to make mr donut man WORK, and they usually don't like to work too hard. You want them to make as many mistakes and abuses of authority as you possibly can. You want to force them to violate as many of your rights as possible by force rather than consent.
Cops usually know what they are lookin FOR, they rarely know what they are looking AT. For instance, they are likely to be looking for evidence of "crimes" but may not know what that evidence actually looks like. A vast majority of cops I personally deal with and observe on a day to day basis are stupid. I mean that in the most literal way possible. I just thought of suggesting that you google GoodSearch "stupid cop," and now I'm really frightened about what such a search might turn up. They can't read well, or comprehend what they read. They can't do math. They don't know what things are when they look at them. Don't ever offer any help whatsoever. If they ask, "what's this?" that means that they don't know, and you're stupider than they are to tell them. Let them search around through that bag of habenero peppers in the back seat, or the botanical samples of Euphobia resinifera, or the clothes you changed out of because they're covered in fiberglass insulation, or wet paint or ink. Let them confiscate that bag of sugar or salt or advil and waste precious time money and resources finding out that it's NOTHING. YOU are the monkeywrench. The more time of theirs that you occupy, the less opportunity that they have to spread tyranny. Wear them out. Try to get away as quickly as possible, but give them things that will occupy their time and resources later, and bury them under mountains of paperwork, administrative mazes, disgruntled bosses, angry bosses who are demanding that they bring your case to closure, irate bosses that are wondering why their office is being swamped with emails and phone calls and why the fax is out of paer and ink AGAIN because the Free Staters never STOP. Screw their relationship with the higher ups and squash their chances for promotion by making them screw up, lose court cases, waste money, publicly embarrass their superiors, undermine their very very precious public credibility, and put them under the media spotlight where they get very bad press.
Most of the cops who come into the Police Supply business that i work at have NO IDEA what they are looking for. They have no idea what gun they carry, what caliber it's chambered in, what holster will fit it, what badge they have, etc. They depend on and expect people like me to do all the mental work FOR them, and that is how the engine of tyranny is kept going. Except that I DON'T help them. I complicate the issue instead of simplify it. I sell them cheap sh*t gear that will wear out or break under stress. I fail to provide unsolicited but helpful information, like maybe you should clean that filthy gun before it jams, or maybe you shouldn't point your gun into your gut while you rack the slide to unload it. Let them learn the hard way. I'm a sales clerk, not a police academy instructor. If they accept the first thing that I shove into their hands, then so be it. The more I have to make them drive back and forth to get it right the better. If I have no choice but to sell them quality gear, I push the most expensive option possible and fail to mention any other less expensive alternatives.
There's a New England joke about some visitors asking "can I get to Springfield down this road?" The New Englander says, "Yep." and the visitors drive off. A few moments later, he adds, "but that's the long way, and you could go the other way and save yourself an hour's drive." I love that joke. I play it on hired mercenaries every day.
Increasingly, LEO's are prior military. They have no real world experience dealing with free citizens in a community. The LEO training academies are very military in their training and tactics. You are a suspect, a danger to them, ready to kill them the first second they look away, surely guilty of SOMETHING, if only they could figure out what it is, after all it us against them. Lots of them are just itching to get out there and play with their paramilitary toys, chase people, beat on people, kill people, confiscate their property, destroy their property, and simply be the unquestionable top dog that is in control of the situation at all times no matter how unreasonable or violent they are. They understand nothing else, they are trained to understand nothing else, and some of them are incapable of understanding nothing else. They are ALWAYS right, the govt and the law is always right, you have no business arguing or opposing them, and they are fully justified in beating the living snot out of you until you submit and "public order" is restored. "You don't have to respect the man, but you HAVE TO respect the BADGE." When you're Tased, they consider it good because, "no one got hurt." This is the way they think.
The flipside is that they are trained and conditioned to follow orders, and they are bound by official rules of conduct. This is why you need to make them run through as much of that maze as possible. The more rules that they have to follow, the faster they have to meet deadlines, and the more tired and overworked they are, the more likely they will make mistakes in favor of the citizens and the more likely they will break one rule too many or too big of a rule and get fired. Which means that they now might harbor ill feelings toward the Dept that fired them. And that Department will look bad, they will have to find and train someone else, they will have to sort through and figure out all the paperwork on the guy's desk, some of it might be lost, never filed, improperly filed, due process will not be adhered to, he will not be able to appear in court for any tickets that the guy gave out, etc. Why not use the system against itself? Officers are AFRAID to do something wrong - because they may get in trouble from their superiors.
I found out that when most people get arrested, they are only "detained" in handcuffs until they are brought to the police station where there is some sort of warrant or other paperwork issued for their arrest. Cops may not be willing to arrest you if you put them on very shaky legal ground.
Cops may be required to pay for some of their own gear. They may only be issued gear and badges when they first get the job, and then anything that they have to replace is out of their pocket. Every time they get in or out of a car, they stretch and strain sewn seams on belt loops. Holsters for flashlights, cuffs, pepper spray, etc are usually about $15 apiece. Flashlights typically go for $75-100. Most are REALLY bright and operate on lithium batteries. Don't forget to have that mirror carefully positioned in the passenger's seat. They burn out batteries A LOT. They seem to burn out faster when used for longer continuous amounts of time than when used for shorter periods on more numerous occasions. 123A cells are not cheap. Neither are the xenon bulbs that burn out when dropped, bumped, or submitted to thermal shock when turned on in the cold.
Cops buy oodles of "shirt stays" and "collar stays" to keep their shirts tucked in and their collars straight since they are required to maintain a neat and professional appearance. Jelly donuts, ink, bleach, and any corrosive chemicals that eat through cloth will cost them money. It would be a shame if they constantly came in contact with grease monkeys or other professionals that transferred sulfate salts to their clothes. Arresting a bench jeweler wearing a t-shirt soaked in "jeweler's pickling salts" could cost them a uniform.
Cops lose things in struggles all the time. The more they take things on and off their belts, the more likely it is that they will misplace it, or put it down somewhere and drive away without it. Their shiny patent leather gear is expensive, uncommon, and wears out quickly. Basketweave is a pain to order and takes ages to arrive.
Cop cars are filled with tons of expensive electronic gear and other stuff. Chloride ion is the universal corrodant. It would be detrimental over the long term to be shoved into the back of a cop car carrying anything that might release volatile and corrosive chloride over time.
Cops spend tons of money replacing worn out jackboots. Soles are only oil-resistant if they are specifically manufactured that way. Lots of things that eat through cloth also eat through leather.
Cops like to sit in hidden spots and set up speed traps. Spots like this are likely to accumulate materials like nails, broken glass, rusty sheet metal, thin plywood over deep holes, sharp pieces of hollow metal tubing, puddles of battery acid or paint, shingles with upward pointing roofing nails, etc.
Sodium silicate and acidic solutions of fluoride salts really frost glass quite effectively and irreversibly. Smeared or corroding paint makes a car look slovenly and unprofessional. That robotic bird that just shit on the speed-trap car might be filled with something neat like paint stripper, oxalic acid, etc. I'll bet a big blob of tar hung from a branch at night might melt and drip as the sun melted it. Gotta get that cleaned up.
The more that cops have to deal with in their personal life, the less time they have to show up to court, show up to testify for more BS laws that the police chief wants, the more stress they have at work and the more likely they are to snap back at partners, coworkers, or bosses. The more crap they have to keep track of in their own lives, the less likely they will be able to remember details of your case, or have the energy to spend on hunting you for sport. File civil suits against them, write them letters directing them to contact your attorney. Invite them by mail to voluntarily fill out paperwork for all kinds of things like the IRS does to millions of citizens. Write informative letters detailing their exploits to the media. Complicate and confuse their lives.
a certain someone I know likes to put certain kinds of cinder blocks in front of certain well known and often used speedtrap 'rest areas". . . . someone did get their ass out of a cruiser to move it, but someone put them back.
no it wasn't me but it was a good idea.
Cops carry all sorts of crap with them on or off duty.
While some of us carry many of the same things for the same reasons, there are things you can look for that may hint that someone is a cop or informant or agent provacateur. COINTELPRO used these people to divide and conquer social activist groups in the past and I have no reason to believe that they've gone away or changed tactics.
Guns, knives clipped into pockets, and wallets that have odd badge-shaped impressions in them. Badge wallets have suede leaflets in them separating the badge from the rest of the contents. Look for that edge of (usually blue) seude. Short haircut. Cop knowledge - get them talking about the police, the law, procedures, etc. Attitude - they think they are right and better than the rest of us. There are things that personally drive them nuts, so get THEM to talk to you about certain topics. Authoritarians usually can't put on a very libertarian act for long without slipping somewhere. Start talking in cop code - a baton, knightstick, tonfa is referred to as a PR24. Learn "10-codes." Learn some administrative lingo that they deal with day in and day out and casually slip it into the conversation. Look for "blue line" stickers, buttons, pins, wrist bands, etc. Some idiots carry LEO "challenge coins" Look at their keys - do they have on for handcuffs or did they forget to take it off the keychain? Maybe their belt has wear spots on the finish from holsters, cuffs, baton carriers, etc. Lots of citizens are taught to stand sideways and shoot (Weaver stance) in order to minimize themselves as targets. Cops are taught to present the front of their ballistic vests (Isosceles stance) and minimize presentation of the seam along the side. Cops seem to love wearing "5.11 tactical gear", Magnum or UnderArmour shirts, and boots made by companies such as Bates, Magnum, Thorogood, 5.11, and SWAT Original. 5.11 makes special jackets with pockets and hidden channels for wearing a wire. I own one if you want to see what it looks like up close. Look for cargo pants, EMT pants, pants with special little pockets, velcro strips, pocket dividers, epaulets, or little pockets in the sleeves or slits in the breast pocket for pens. Look for cop gear catalogs, cop magazines and newspapers, etc. Look for things used to maintain uniforms cop gear or or patrol cars like shoe shine, "edge dressing", shirt stays, collar stays, hat presses, seat-organizers, aluminum notepad holders, tactical gear cleaner, etc. "Hey, why don't we (you) do [something illegal]." Always a great reason to suspect someone is a fed or agent provacateur. If you're going to do something, just shut up and do it, and then shut up. And then keep shutting up. Feds like to lead a little conspiracy and then screw all the other consiprators. Somehow that's not entrapment.
Often times these guys have NO IDEA how obvious the fact that they are a cop is. Other times, they are disheveled illiterate idiots with more tattoos than some gang members - or they ARE recruited "former" gang members, and you can't tell the difference between them and anyone else. Ever wonder why they don't like photographers at gun shows? Because there are 9 zillion undercover cops and feds in the crowd.
Like I said, many of these things can apply to "gear heads," gun guys, or especially ME, but I figured that I'd just put it out there as an FYI. Don't be paranoid, but don't be stupid. If there's something that your gut says isn't quite right - especially just for that first instant - write it down, don't forget it, and get your antennae up and out. The price of Liberty is indeed eternal vigilance. Know thine enemy.
a cop came up to me on the beach, plain clothed, but he still had the look, the pressed baseball cap, the fresh facial hair, the build and the vest underneath. He asked me flat out if I could find some weed for him. I asked him if he was a cop, and he said "oh god no son, just looking for some herbals"
So I took a chance. . . I started saying louder and louder if he was a cop and all of a sudden he was "do you know that outing an undercover police officer is a crime?"
So I walked down the strip telling everyone and pointing at him. I figured at the very least he switched over to busting people pissing on the beach after everything is closed. But the question is, is this truly a crime? I can't in a free world like the USA go down the street and inform others that there is in fact a police officer in the area? Or is it one of those laws that has come of age because police found it "difficult" to be undercover? Perhaps they shouldn't be so blatant, or at the very least arrest themselves for outing an undercover cop.
plus, I was listening to my iPod, not high nor smoking-- he didn't even ask me what was in my cup (water).
Some very good posts, Bald Eagle.
You & the police takes a very common-sense approach to dealing with police. I've refused consent to search my vehicle many times, and apparently many people just do whatever the cops want. The officers often have seemed surprised that someone would assert their rights without acting like a jerk (though I've also been a jerk to the cops before too :icon_pirat: )
Quotea certain someone I know likes to put certain kinds of cinder blocks in front of certain well known and often used speedtrap 'rest areas". . . . someone did get their ass out of a cruiser to move it, but someone put them back.
That's funny. Onetime I saw a
bunch of nails on one of those "authorized personnel only" areas that only cops can use to turn around. I about died laughing! I'm sure the nails would serve their purpose, but I was thinking that maybe if someone welded and bent 2 nails together and cut the heads off you would have a 4-sided object that would definitely flatten tires.
Gotta love civil dis like that!
Signal to noise ratio.
It's a lot easier to notice a faint 1-lumen in the zero-lumen darkness, it's a lot harder to notice the difference between a 199 and a 200-lumen light.
Cops and feds look for things they imagine in their authoritarian statist fantasies are "CRIMES."
They increasingly rely on technology brought to them by people paid with stolen tax dollars to develop better, more efficient gadgets to detect evidence of these purported crimes.
Imagine what would happen if every dollar that passed through your hands became tainted with "explosives residue" from gunpowder, Nu-Skin wound protectant, fertilizer, amyl nitrate inhalants, nitroglycerine heart meds, alkyl nitrites in things like air fresheners. http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs07/708/ (http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs07/708/)
Or if oregano were distributed far and wide onto surfaces that became quite hot. I've also noticed that starch from pasta boil-over can have a peculiar characteristic herbal aroma. Or if real ditch-weed were ground up, released illegally into the air via helium balloons, and popped mid-air where lots of drug dogs hang out. Like at the drug dog bar, or the drug dog mall. Thiols and mercaptans are sulfur compounds used to add odor to things like natural gas. The only problem is that although the threshold concentration for olfactory detection of these chemicals is very low, they have the property of neutralizing your sense of smell over a period of time if continually exposed. Probably also a bad thing for drug dogs.
Drug dogs are trained to look for drugs, but it's done by providing toys and treats as rewards. I like to drive around on Sundfays with dog snacks and treats in my car, and give my freedom-loving friends pet toys as gifts. It's also fun to spray things like coon urine or other fun hunting products out the window while driving as it gives the dogs' sensitive noses a special treat that will drive them WILD! Cops love when protesters get arrested and shoved in the back of a cop car carrying little ziplock bags of coon urine! I hate it whn those things open accidentally.
Lots of drug tests and other chemical tests give false positives for other common over the counter drugs like Benadryl or things like poppy seed rolls, bagels, or salad dressing. Most drug tests go through a preliminary "screen" and then if there is a potentially positive result, there is more advanced and expensive testing. Every urine sample should light up the screen like a christmas tree and then be proven later and more expensively to the system to be a false positive. It would be a shame if a testing lab got whalloped with a chemical leak or contamination. All those "green leafy" substances, or white powdery substances might be rife with things that clog up the works during sample prep or damage million-dollar tandem liquid-chromatography mass-spectrographs. Large quantities of fluoride (some insect and rat poisons, fluoride supplements) is always fun to put into expensive equipment or glass vessels. Gelling agents drive lab technicians crazy. Metamucil, pectin, starches, microcrystalline or modified cellulose, gelatin, aluminum salts (Dr. Scholl's aisle), etc. make dissolving and filtering a sample FUN! Ever try getting that stuff to go into or out of a sample syringe? I'll betcha some sodium silicate (deck waterproofing, and lots of other applications) would make an expensive ground-glass syringe lock up tighter than Monica Lewinski's lips.
Cops look for certain smells and precursor chemicals when looking for The Dreaded Meth Lab! Dun-dun-dah! :o ::). Amines are used in the manufacture of meth, and are just chemically modified ammonia. Methylamine in particular is not only used to make meth, but is released by bacteria from rotting fish. Toss a dead mackeral or a bucket of chum into or near ever shack in the woods and let them sort it all out on a wild goose chase.
Anthranilic acid is was used to make Methaqualone (QuaaludeTM) when people still knew what that was. Any grape-flavored food is chock full of methyl anthranilate.
Mass transit centers have big utility boxes that suck in and filter air, and then testing is done for anthrax spores, radioactive materials, nerve agents, etc. Cultivating mushrooms with millions of spores is a fun and profitable hobby that I think lots of people in NH woul enjoy. And we like to go camping and use Coleman lantern with those mantles that contain thorium oxide. And we like to enjoy healthy diets with potassium supplements and salt-substitutes. Oddly enough a large percentage of all-natural potassium is naturally radioactive. None of that non-radioactive synthetic stuff for us back-to-nature types!
An d of course, Cannabis sativa grows wild EVERYWHERE and does not discriminate between hydroponic labs, gardens, or the lawns on police stations, courts, or officers' homes.
The point is, the more things that are EVERYWHERE, the harder it is to show that it is somewhere in particular, or that ONLY you exhibit traces of it. Like cocaine on FRN's.
Speaking of FRN's, that little pen that "detects counterfeits" is just a felt-tipped pen with iodine solution instead of ink. FRN's use specially purified paper with all of the starch removed, so the iodine remains yellowish, whereas regular paper has its natural starch that reacts with the iodine and turns it that dark purple color. Now if all of your FRN's got sprayed with laundry starch, a lot more people would have a lot less faith in FRN's. You could even stamp them all with something like "The Liberty Dollar isn't FAKE!"
Quote from: Quantrill on July 01, 2007, 06:31 PM NHFT
I'm sure the nails would serve their purpose, but I was thinking that maybe if someone welded and bent 2 nails together and cut the heads off you would have a 4-sided object that would definitely flatten tires.
Cops bring objects and devices back to the station and they eventually get analyzed and recorded into a database. Do some research into protests like WTO and you'll see what I'm talking about. I think there might me some mention of this by the cops in some of the Alex Jones Police State videos.
Anyone has a valid reason for buying and transporting nails. A "reasonable man" could not construe a bag of nails as evidence of criminal intent. Caltrops are unusual, require undue labor, leave forensic evidence, and are hard to explain.
Plausible deniability.
At the risk of defending small time thuggery ...
I don't think we necessarily need to adopt the same "us vs them" attitude with the cops here in NH. As far as cops go, most of the small town cops here seem pretty easygoing. There are far too many cops here in Keene, but even though I've been pulled over way too many times, they've never been rude to me, or even given me a ticket. Some of them have been downright helpful.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I guess I'm just saying that you have to adapt your actions to your circumstances. If the cops in your little town seem pretty easygoing, then why not try to win them over to your cause. You may just get them to turn their heads to what you do, so long as you're not hurting anyone. If you're in LA ... sure, avoid them like the plague. But maybe Marlborough, NH requires a little different strategy.
Great thread, Bald Eagle. Thanks for being a monkeywrench and for sharing your experiences, etc.
Quote from: Caleb on July 01, 2007, 07:27 PM NHFT
But maybe Marlborough, NH requires a little different strategy.
Yeah, if a state trooper pulls you over there you might get shot dead. :o
Quote from: Quantrill on July 01, 2007, 06:31 PM NHFT
I was thinking that maybe if someone welded and bent 2 nails together and cut the heads off you would have a 4-sided object that would definitely flatten tires.
The Romans thought so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop
Quote from: Hollywood on July 01, 2007, 07:38 PM NHFT
Great thread, Bald Eagle. Thanks for being a monkeywrench and for sharing your experiences, etc.
Quote from: Caleb on July 01, 2007, 07:27 PM NHFT
But maybe Marlborough, NH requires a little different strategy.
Yeah, if a state trooper pulls you over there you might get shot dead. :o
touche. ;D
Although, once again, that was the state troopers, not the local marlborough boys.
Those easygoing, downright helpful police in Keene did arrest Russell for doing nothing wrong...
Sure ... but I bet they turn their heads when he drives by from now on ...
Quote from: Caleb on July 01, 2007, 07:27 PM NHFT
touche. ;D
Although, once again, that was the state troopers, not the local marlborough boys.
;D You're right. I just couldn't resist commenting since you mentioned Marlborough.
You have more experience driving around that area than anyone I know, and I'm glad your experiences with the local cops have been relatively good.
Sure Caleb, I've (amazingly) got a number of people here in VA who are cops or ex cops that I get along very well with, some I've gotten interested in the FSP, and some are actually defenders of liberty - as far as cops are allowed to be...
It's the dedicated evil mobs of rogue thugs who live every second of their petty useless lives to screw everyone else over that I dedicated these ideas for created a rocky road for tyranny to travel on. If there are good guys who want to be Peace Officers more than they want to be LEO's or mercenaries or informants or thugs with a badge, then I'm very interested in organizing community events such as "Get to know your community servants." That way we know who they are, they know who we are, and it's harder to treat someone as sub-human when you know them personally.
Christian teachings and ethics aside, some people are vicious reprehensible disgusting pieces of feces whose evil should be resisted every step of the way.
Furthermore, I believe that much of the true evil in the system - the evil GENIUS of Satan if you will, is based upon what Ayn Rand's concept of true evil is. Imagine a huge boulder or avalanche or volcanic lava flow coming off the top of a mountain to crush a town below. That is the epitome of evil. It will destroy good - the life God gave us and everything in that life, and everything we used that life to work for, and nothing can stop it. We can argue and reason and use irrefutable logic, and beg and plead for mercy, and show we've led good, principled, pious lives, and it will not sway, contact, communicate with, or touch the oncoming destructive force. Criminals are subject to persuasion. Rogue legislators and agents of the state can be persuaded through peaceful means. But The Engine of the State has a crushing, unthinking momentum of it's own that even few of its own cogs have the power to influence. People's lives and futures are crushed and destroyed in unthinkable manners because of a set of rules. Those rules are implemented by men and machines. You can love those men as your enemies, Caleb, but I should think that you'd have no real issues with disabling the machines and throwing sand into the gears.
If someone manufactured a Real ID for you, would you not crush it's RFID chip with a hammer and burn it? If you received the Mark of the Beast in your right hand or your forehead, would you not remove it? Did not Christ himself drive out the money changers and turn over their tables? He didn't play nice with them and hold a sign in Aramaic politely asking the usurous profiteers to leave his Father's house, he did what a man of sense ought to do and kicked the scumbags the hell out.
If I have legitimate business in the IRS office, and purposefully save up a green, juicy fart from the depths of my bowels to let loose once inside, am I initiating force or violence against the agents of tyranny? I'll bet that I'm making it an unpleasant working environment for them though.
I left chemistry because I hated the environment. Let's make tyrants and petty thugs hate their working environment and offer them lucrative, pleasant free-market alternatives. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Is it any wonder we have a bunch of spoiled above-the-law brats abusing us like slaves on a plantation? We've got an amazing carrot to offer people - we need to apply the stick to overcome inertia and resistance. It's irresponsible to not use a method that may reverse the path to bloody revolution. There are people out there who will not shy away from bloody revolution if pushed to it and offered no other choice. We're here now, and can work to prevent that. Our ounce of prevention, however bitter the medicine may be, is worth more than a pound of what the cure will be if tyranny rules.
If I have legitimate business in the IRS office, and purposefully save up a green, juicy fart from the depths of my bowels to let loose once inside, am I initiating force or violence against the agents of tyranny? I'll bet that I'm making it an unpleasant working environment for them though.
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Good points, bald eagle.
Evil should always be resisted. Nonviolently of course.
I just wanted to make the points that I think you have clarified: We need to take the situation into account and see to what extent we can win over those who might be so inclined.
My experience has been this: Almost every large city police corp is thoroughly corrupt. Probably anything over 100,000 people in the city and you're going to have a corrupt police corp. In Indianapolis, (where I came from), they like to break in people's houses in the dead of night and shoot them dead. The thought seems to be that anything that would give the owner of the home notice of what is happening endangers the lives of the officers. Of course, when you frighten homeowners, many times very bad things happen, and people have been shot dead for doing the natural thing and trying to defend themselves against what they can only assume is a burglary or worse.
In Greenwood, IN, one moronic officer decided to attempt to pull my wife over in an unmarked (civilian) car by chasing us and flashing his brights at us. At that time, I was still resisting evil by force. We thought some crazy guy was chasing us (in retrospect, he was some crazy guy, he just happened to have a badge), so I directed my wife to pull over in a restaurant parking lot, and I told her to run inside the restaurant, while I would charge the guy and hit him in the face as hard as I could. I got out of the car and bolted toward him. He also got out and pulled a gun on me and said, "Freeze! Police!" I put my hands up and told him, "You better be glad you're a cop. You were about two seconds away from getting a fist to your jaw." He told me, "You were about one second away from getting shot." When we reported him to the police chief, he told me, "Huh? That's certainly out of character for him. He passed his most recent psychological profile with flying colors." As best as I can tell, nothing was ever done to discipline him for chasing us through the streets in a civilian car.
In smaller towns, it's a crapshoot. They have smaller departments, so each department takes on a life of its own. In Owensboro, KY, the police like to pull over pretty young girls, and then let them out of the tickets if they will perform sexual favors. But I don't think that's happening here.
So I don't have a whole lot of respect for LEO's in general.
But I tend to doubt that we will ever have pure anarchy in my lifetime. About the best that we can hope for is officers simply looking the other way because they like us, and don't want to hurt us. The "us vs them" attitude is not going to help that. If they take it with us ... sure, clog them up and waste their time so they can't hurt other people. But if they don't take that attitude, you're probably better off trying to win them over.
That's right kids, my Nom de Guerre is Bald Eagle and I'm here to make fighting for Liberty FUN!
Not to be confused with the song by The Mentors, we can start The 4 F Club.
Farters Fighting For Freedom.
Quote from: Caleb on July 01, 2007, 07:27 PM NHFT
At the risk of defending small time thuggery ...
I don't think we necessarily need to adopt the same "us vs them" attitude with the cops here in NH. As far as cops go, most of the small town cops here seem pretty easygoing. There are far too many cops here in Keene, but even though I've been pulled over way too many times, they've never been rude to me, or even given me a ticket. Some of them have been downright helpful.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I guess I'm just saying that you have to adapt your actions to your circumstances. If the cops in your little town seem pretty easygoing, then why not try to win them over to your cause. You may just get them to turn their heads to what you do, so long as you're not hurting anyone. If you're in LA ... sure, avoid them like the plague. But maybe Marlborough, NH requires a little different strategy.
I should have prefaced my point by saying I lived in the commonwealth. . . whoops, a certain commonwealth. And by I, I mean someone. haha
That's why I like to talk with you, Caleb - I think we agree on a lot of things, and the things that we don't we don't get into a pissing match over.
I'll be happy to watch you peacfully protest from 400 yards away, get your skull shattered by someone in an army of overzealous nazis looking to make a name for themselves, and then blow his waste of grey matter from between his ears that are unable to hear and out from in back of his eyes that are unable to see.
150 grains of gilding-metal jacketed lead, travelling at over 2800 feet per second (over 1900 MPH) and spinning at over 200,000 RPM is sure to momentarily get the thug's attention with over 85,000 foot-pounds of energy and teach him a lesson about Liberty that will last him the rest of his life. Before anyone even hears the sound of the shot.
When you come out of your coma, we can continue to debate Christian love vs Tough love. You can introduce them to Christ your way, and I can back you up with mine.
Like I've said before, I'm more than willing to play the nonviolent noncooperation game and be one of many water droplets in the Second Wave. But the fascist shark that draws first blood on My People will face the wrath of the Third Wave - armed with "rods of iron".
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should
smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he
treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING
OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud
voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come
and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 19:18
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the
flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on
them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and
great.
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their
armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the
horse, and against his army.
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that
wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had
received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon
the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls
were filled with their flesh.
Quote from: Bald Eagle on July 01, 2007, 09:21 PM NHFT
I'll be happy to watch you peacfully protest from 400 yards away, get your skull shattered by someone in an army of overzealous nazis looking to make a name for themselves, and then blow his waste of grey matter from between his ears that are unable to hear and out from in back of his eyes that are unable to see.
150 grains of gilding-metal jacketed lead, travelling at over 2800 feet per second (over 1900 MPH) and spinning at over 200,000 RPM is sure to momentarily get the thug's attention with over 85,000 foot-pounds of energy and teach him a lesson about Liberty that will last him the rest of his life. Before anyone even hears the sound of the shot.
I think you'll find yet another happy home over at our new forum (http://www.nhteaparty.org/) as well.
Well, I'm not so naive as to believe that pacifism will always be the safest route. :) Actually, Jesus said that true Christians would be persecuted until he returned. I'm just thankful that they aren't still boiling us in oil. Or at least, there is a moratorium on the oil-boilings. :o (who knows when they'll take it up again.)
Self-defense is the natural thing, and truth be told, is probably the best way to stay alive.
I've got worked up before on this issue, but I try to maintain the viewpoint that if I see a person attacking another person, and that person defending himself ... why on earth would I condemn the smaller act of violence over the larger one? The person attacking is the main problem.
And I like talking with you, because you've got very creative ideas; and while I know that you will defend yourself, you don't seem to have a violent heart, because almost all of your ideas are nonviolent. :) So keep them coming!
Quote from: Caleb on July 01, 2007, 09:34 PM NHFT
The person attacking is the main problem.
And I like talking with you, because you've got very creative ideas; and while I know that you will defend yourself, you don't seem to have a violent heart, because almost all of your ideas are nonviolent. :) So keep them coming!
Right-O. We all just want to be left alone so that we can be free to visit each other and party while making tons of money pushing the envelope with new ideas, technologies, and efficient services.
I just like to remind myself and others that it's not the fall of our Nation that's going to kill us, it's the sudden stop at the end. There's got to be an end somewhere, some line that isn't in the sand - it's in bedrock. Government shall not do this, otherwise all bets are off, all contracts explicit, implicit, or implied are null and void, and it's shit-kicking time.
I'd be happy with simply throwing all of the fascist thugs and the cheerleaders of evil into a big cage and watching them fight amongst themselves as they tried to blame each other. Any score on the Nolan Chart that's North of Authoritarian gets you out, and into a rehabilitation program. :icon_pirat:
I just think it's silly that people make such a big friggin stink about "violence." Parents spank their kids, kids beat the snot out of each other over stupid stuff and then get over it, drunk guys get into bar brawls and once it's out of their systems they're back at the bar buying beers for each other. Like it or not, we're animals, and we kick and scratch and peck and butt heads and lock horns. Sometimes there are other "more civil" ways, but smacking someone on the head kind of gets their attention in a special way and sometimes literally knocks some sense into them.
"Most civilization is based on cowardice. It's so easy to civilize by teaching cowardice. You water down the standards which would lead to bravery. You restrain the will. You regulate the appetites. You fence in the horizons. You make a law for every movement. You deny the existence of chaos. You teach even the children to breathe slowly. You tame. " - Frank Herbert, Dune
"With all the artillery, ships and manpower in the military, our commanders often forget that ideas can be the greatest weapon of all." - a Cogitor
I plan on being one dangerous MF'ing weapon. :icon_pirat:
You are definitely welcome to come over and hang out any time you want. Even if you do piss all over MaineShark's karma. ::) The clash between our approaches is sure to be enlightening.
"To know a thing well, know its limits. Only when pushed beyond its tolerances will true nature be seen. Do not depend only on theory if your life is at stake."
Quote from: Bald Eagle on July 02, 2007, 12:07 AM NHFT
You are definitely welcome to come over and hang out any time you want. Even if you do piss all over MaineShark's karma. ::)
Caleb, are you my ping-pong opponent in the battle over Maine Shark's karma?
Kevin
Quote from: Bald Eagle on July 02, 2007, 12:07 AM NHFTThere's got to be an end somewhere, some line that isn't in the sand - it's in bedrock. Government shall not do this, otherwise all bets are off, all contracts explicit, implicit, or implied are null and void, and it's shit-kicking time.
Perhaps an attempt, either successful or unsuccessful depending on one's level of cantankerousness, to repeal the Second Amendment.
Quote from: mvpel on July 02, 2007, 10:11 AM NHFT
Quote from: Bald Eagle on July 02, 2007, 12:07 AM NHFTThere's got to be an end somewhere, some line that isn't in the sand - it's in bedrock. Government shall not do this, otherwise all bets are off, all contracts explicit, implicit, or implied are null and void, and it's shit-kicking time.
Perhaps an attempt, either successful or unsuccessful depending on one's level of cantankerousness, to repeal the Second Amendment.
They've already done that. Nobody lifted a finger.
Quote from: error on July 02, 2007, 10:49 AM NHFTThey've already done that. Nobody lifted a finger.
I'm thinking of a more open attempt as some left-wing pundits have proposed, instead of the death by a thousand cuts we've suffered for the past seven decades.
I agree completely with the right of self defense.
But I view it like this. I am one man. There are about 30 keene law enforcers, maybe several hundred state police, a national guard, and the us military. in a state of 1.3 million people, only Carl drega, Liko Kenny, and the Browns, and a few others that have actually lived free or died.
Most submit to arrest because most believe in the long run they will be better off alive than dead, to fight another day. I believe in the nonviolent route to challenge the gov't for pragmatic reasons. The gov't mafia is bigger, better armed, ect. You have a God given right to defend your property and your life. But with the gov't mafia, there are better ways to do it then throwing rocks at the hornets nest.
I'm going to use the example of licence plates to illustrate this, because in this method, the strategy works. http://goingtojail.embassyofheaven.com/ I believe it was Dadaorwell that came up with the concept of 'Ignore me or Arrest me.' When enforcing the thousands of laws on the books, the individual enforcer has to decide to ignore it or arrest the nonviolent resister. The last time they arrested Russel. I believe they will likely harass or arrest him for not having a licence at least once or twice more. After that, they are more likely to simply ignore him.
This strategy only works if 1. the inmate is essentially uncooperative, and 2. the inmate has outside support. (it reminds the police that they are being watched.)
The goal, is to get the police to not want to enforce their own laws. It isn't to make them afraid of us, or angry at us. The easiest way to get someone to stop beating you is to make them not want to beat you. To threaten violence or to scare them works for a while, but it only triggers anger and retaliation. Dr. King was very worried about the outbrakes of violence for this reason. The nonviolent approach has a better longer lasting legacy. I doubt the police have any real bitterness towards Russel. The law and order types may grunt that he 'got away with breaking the law', but there should be no real violence.
I have an nhfree bumper sticker on the back of my car specifically so they know, that I have friends.
It is dangerous to paint all cops with a broad brush especially since we are the minority. :)
Quote from: KBCraig on July 02, 2007, 01:31 AM NHFT
Quote from: Bald Eagle on July 02, 2007, 12:07 AM NHFT
You are definitely welcome to come over and hang out any time you want. Even if you do piss all over MaineShark's karma. ::)
Caleb, are you my ping-pong opponent in the battle over Maine Shark's karma?
Kevin
no. to my knowledge I've never smited maineshark. I don't know who your opponent is, but the logical suspects would be the non-violent crowd and the 9/11 truthers. I know I fit both categories ... but it wasn't me. I smite people only if they become government apologists. Like the moron who says that Monier is doing a good job.
Quote from: Caleb on July 02, 2007, 07:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on July 02, 2007, 01:31 AM NHFT
Quote from: Bald Eagle on July 02, 2007, 12:07 AM NHFT
You are definitely welcome to come over and hang out any time you want. Even if you do piss all over MaineShark's karma. ::)
Caleb, are you my ping-pong opponent in the battle over Maine Shark's karma?
Kevin
no. to my knowledge I've never smited maineshark. I don't know who your opponent is, but the logical suspects would be the non-violent crowd and the 9/11 truthers. I know I fit both categories ... but it wasn't me. I smite people only if they become government apologists. Like the moron who says that Monier is doing a good job.
I really didn't think it was you, but Bald Eagle's comment made me wonder. I knew if it had been you, you'd have smited him for 7k at a whack, instead of one point at at time. ;)
I don't think it's anyone who even comments regularly, but they sure are determined. Maine Shark's last post was over a week ago. During that time, I've applauded him 6-12 times every single day (just like I've been doing for a couple of months now), but the Karma Bandit manages to offset it, one by one, until it's back down to -5.
I just wish the cowardly stalker would speak up and debate.
QuoteIf I have legitimate business in the IRS office, and purposefully save up a green, juicy fart from the depths of my bowels to let loose once inside, am I initiating force or violence against the agents of tyranny? I'll bet that I'm making it an unpleasant working environment for them though.
I know of a vegetarian chili recipe that should be banned as biological warfare.
David, you described my point of view perfectly. I can't think of anything to add.
KB, I give joe karma at least once a day. I try to do it more than that...
On the note of dealing with the police, I had a little fun tonight. Went out on my bike and did a little copwatch. Observed three police actions. Made sure to be noticed. At one point, I sat down on the sidewalk and sipped from a water bottle, while the cop kept looking over at me, like "what are you doing." Everything went pretty routine, no arrests or anything and they didn't rough anybody up.
Quote from: Caleb on July 04, 2007, 12:12 AM NHFT
On the note of dealing with the police, I had a little fun tonight. Went out on my bike and did a little copwatch. Observed three police actions. Made sure to be noticed. At one point, I sat down on the sidewalk and sipped from a water bottle, while the cop kept looking over at me, like "what are you doing." Everything went pretty routine, no arrests or anything and they didn't rough anybody up.
Cool! Did you take pictures? That would really frustrate them! I guess you can't videotape due to wiretapping laws. :(
Did you get the cops' names and/or badge numbers? Whatever happened to the copwatch database?
Quote from: KBCraig on July 02, 2007, 07:52 PM NHFT
I don't think it's anyone who even comments regularly, but they sure are determined. Maine Shark's last post was over a week ago. During that time, I've applauded him 6-12 times every single day (just like I've been doing for a couple of months now), but the Karma Bandit manages to offset it, one by one, until it's back down to -5.
I just wish the cowardly stalker would speak up and debate.
I smite comments I really disagree with .... I am sure I have done it it maineshark .... I currently have him on ignore, which shuts off my smiting.
Maybe he just has many smitable comments sitting out there.
Quote from: Quantrill on July 04, 2007, 09:01 AM NHFT
Cool! Did you take pictures? That would really frustrate them! I guess you can't videotape due to wiretapping laws. :(
Did you get the cops' names and/or badge numbers? Whatever happened to the copwatch database?
Seems like as long as they know they are being recorded, it would be okay.
Julia and I did a copwatch with a video camera on Main Street in Keene, and the cop didn't say a damn thing to us.
Plus, I thought media could record them.
I just learned about Copwatch and watched several of the videos.
I was blown away at how many cops disliked being filmed. It speaks volumes.
What happened to all those nice friendly cops in the old days?
Have you noticed almost of all them wear black or very dark blue clothes?
They used to wear the light blue shirts.
I noticed how many cops had no badge or name on their shirt and how many others refused to give their name or badge number. This is friggin getting bad..these goons are are public servants yet they treat us with disrespect and bully us. These damn goons team up and position themselves to stop an observer from filming. They shoved innocent people. They threatened and harssed innocent people. AND they are compiling a list of the Copwatchers and labeling them anti gov-extremists. They are arrogant and rude and should be shitcanned.
This has to be stopped. Copwatch is a great asset. I will be buying a camcorder this week.
Kola
altho i wouldn't personally advocate all of the things you are advocating in your article, bill...
this fits in very well with the idea that we need to build peacable shields around ourselves and around each other, shields that don't rely on the law, the lawmakers or the law enforcers.
I'm just here to generate ideas.
Ain't my problem or responsibility if someone thinks any of my ideas are good.
I'd like to see more people say, "Well, that's really dancing right up along the line, but if we did ... THIS ... then it would have the same effect, be totally legal and completely nonviolent.
After reading Roycerson's little story, I don't feel like anyone has made any case against grinding down the machinery the police use to oppress and harass regular people. They never pay a price, ever.
Corporate Avenger http://www.corporateavenger.info/fisom.html (http://www.corporateavenger.info/fisom.html) has some lyrics that describe the situation quite well:
Quote
I don't cry when the police die, cuz they probably deserved it
Run around with a badge and a gun, and they Goddamned fuck with everyone
Enforce rules made by fools, violence and fear their tools
They dress to oppress, with the laws they arrest, and they leave us powerless
We have created a reality based on fear where the terrorist the gangster and the police
can take away you freedom, your sense of security at any time
Will I cry the next time some fat drooling fascist pulls his back muscles hauling little Lauren Canario to a transport vehicle for relocation to an isolation and "rehabilitation" facility?
Do I cry when some drunk, speeding nazi wraps his patrol car or motorcyle around a tree or a telephone pole? They seem to do that down here all the time. That's one less piece of human feces I have to worry about.
Do I waste a minute of my time giving consideration to the poor wife and children the SS officer left behind, when the PBA calls me to raise money to help? Are you kidding? On some psycho chick who's world view is so messed up that she married a COP? She reproduced with it? She raised them in a household with a COP as an ever present authority figure? You might as well ask me to give money to support weaponizing anthrax or to a home for child molesters that like to make snuff films.
You want to make these people not want to enforce their own laws.
First of all, they are not "their own" laws. They don't give a damn whose laws they are, they're simply the brainwashed enforcers who think anything they are told is "right" and they are more than happy to grind you under their jackboot.
Second, look at what Russel and Lauren DO. They themselves become in their own person a monkeywrench. They use up time and money and resources and fuel and a host of other things that the people dealing with them could be using elsewhere. I'm simply saying that their push could be more effective if applied with a lever.
Pick out any single incident, and break it down from start to finish into a chain of small events. Then consider how every single small event could be used against the agents of tyranny.
1. cops get called.
2. cops get dispatched.
3. cops drive to house
4. cops walk out to porch
5. cops grab Lauren
6. cops drag Lauren back to National Socialist Workers Party vehicle
7. cops drive Lauren to internment camp
8. cops process Lauren like a piece of offensive filth
9. cops lock up Lauren
Every one of these things can be used to send a message to stop bothering the free people of NH.
1. If all of the lines are busy, or the person answering has hearing damage, or the phone equipment at the station is damaged or in disrepair, then it's harder to call the cops.
2. If there is civil disobedience going on everywhere, or there are cops on wild goose chases, or the 911 dispatch system got nailed by hackers, then it's going to be a lot harder for the bloodthirsty mercenaries to be sent in against a peaceful activist.
3. It's harder to reach the person whose head you want to slam into the concrete if your car doesn't operate very well, if your eyesight is bad, if you lost your glasses, if you get a flat tire, if you seize the engine up because you ran out of oil, or if you die in a car accident.
4. Walking seems easy unless it's up a steep incline and you have a bad heart, if you're stepping on construction debris with rusty nails, if you have to wade through vines, thorns, nettles, gopher holes, manure piles, etc. The crummy boots I sold you might catastrophically fail. Wild dogs might attack you in packs, who knows. You might mess up your fancy-ass uniform on the plants that were sprayed down with green permanent fabric ink or laundry bleach or scratch up your shiny prom-date leather gear and then get a dressing-down from the chief, and then have to pay to replace it all. I'd probably lose the order, be astonishingly ignorant about what was in stock, slow in incompetent when looking for what you wanted, accidentally transpose number and order the wrong replacement gear, etc.
5. You can grab someone, but you might be caught red-handed on security cameras, by activists with camcorders, by the activist's attorney who was dropping by to see how their favorite client was doing, etc. The local gang might set off a tear gas grenade in the abandoned lot next door. Lauren might have some nasty highly contagious disease like cholera or bird flu or plague. A-choo.
6. It's harder to drag someone back to the paddywagon when they're heavy, chained to a pole, you're fat and out of shape, there's carbon monoxide in the air (we were just getting ready to have some shrimp on the barby), you've contracted lathyrism, you fall through rotting floorboards on the deck, or the paddywagon isn't there when you get back. You might contract lung cancer, emphysema, muscular dystrophy, tendonitis, gout, arthritis, rheumatism, poor bowel and bladder control, Crohn's disease, migraines, or any number of conditions that make it hard for you to go out shoving people around for fun. You might split the ass open on your uniform and have it wind up on national TV or most certainly YouTube. Curse Scooby Doo and those those Damned kids!
7. Now you've got to get to the station or the jail. You might have gotten a flat tire while you were out playing bully. Gas might have leaked out of that rust hole in the gas tank. There might be black enamel paint of the windshield, a chain from the rear axle to a telephone pole, or thermite may have burned through the hood, the engine block, and into the pavement. Lauren might convert 90% of her body weight into gassy explosive diarrhea while s(h)itting in the back of the car. Scooby Doo and those those Damned kids may have erected a roadblock or a detour to nowhere.
8. Lauren has no ID and will not speak. Hundreds of activists from around the nation call the station and only refer to the innocent victim of tyranny as "THX 1138." Trash and zillions of bent nails accumulate in the parking lot and the road to your facility, slowing vehicular traffic to a standstill, creating the expense of replacing tires and hiring someone to clean it all up. Lauren is wearing color-changing contacts, and has synthetic fingertips bonded over her fingerprints. The features highlighted in the fake fingerprints are arranged to spell out fuckyoupig when digitized.
9. It's harder to lock people up when people are so frustrated that they're quitting, there isn't funding, the jail is overcrowded, you're out of handcuffs because they broke AGAIN, and the ones you sent off for repair aren't back yet or the guy who sent them back just shoved them into a corner in the back of the stockroom and didn't call you, or your cuff key broke off in the shackles, ....
It should be an uphill battle every step of the way.
Now, do you want to get up and go back to work THERE, after that damn new guy who just moved up from VA bought a dog that barks and kept you up all night?
I'll bet we could hire a lot of EX-cops into the private sector... 8)
There's just so many ways to be peceful, nonviolent, and extremely noncooperative.
the thing about the police, is regardless of who a police officer is as a person, I find what they do for a living extremely disturbing and offensive.
I'm sick of living in a country with secret police.
They aren't secret, they're right out there in the open cuffing and stuffing someone for open carry in the open carry state of Virginia:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255107 - July 19, 2007
Norfolk passed an ILLEGAL 'no guns' ordinance a few months ago (no, I am NOT kidding) and ENFORCED that illegal ordinance against a VCDL member!
Chet Szymecki arrived at Sail Virginia 2007 with his family. Chet was approached by a black female Norfolk Sheriff's officer and was asked if he was a police officer.
Chet responded, "No."
The officer then stated that Chet must leave the festival area immediately since he was not permitted to carry a firearm there. At the same time another Sheriff's deputy closed in, and one more hung back a few feet.
Within a few seconds two groups of officers from the Norfolk Police Department approached.
The primary group had 5-6 officers, and from the look on a Lieutenant's face Chet could tell that things were quickly becoming exponentially worse.
The Lieutenant came within inches of Chet and in a very condescending tone of voice stated that Chet had two choices: leave the park or go to jail.
While appearing to be as non-confrontational as possible (one hand holding his waffle cake and the other feeding his mouth) Chet began to reply that this must be a simple misunderstanding since he is
permitted to carry.
Chet was cut off and, as the Lieutenant leaned in to intimidate him, the Lieutenant raised his voice and just about shouted that Chet had only two choices: leave immediately or be arrested.
Chet was still in shock and once again began to speak. Not waiting to hear what Chet had to say, the Lieutenant immediately told the other officers to arrest Chet!
In the following seconds Chet had hands all over him. One officer was tugging at Chet's pistol, having much difficulty removing it. Chet was worried about an accidental discharge with his family being literally feet away.
Other officers were pulling Chet's arms around his back and cuffing him. Chet offered no resistance.
Chet's wife began to speak and she was immediately pushed back by a black female Sheriff's deputy!
Chet's children were just about panicking watching their law-abiding father being stripped of his dignity while their mother was being forced back and being told that she may be arrested if she failed to comply.
Chet's wife attempted to record the scene on her cellular phone and was told she would be arrested if she did not secure her phone immediately!!!
... continued at link ...
Wow mvpel, another sickening story. The SS Nazi Police are starting to call everything "private property" and that constitutional laws do not apply.
Kola
we need a place where there could be a crowd there, to stop this sort of thing from happening. . . . a simple crowd surrounding the police, yelling and screaming might armed with video cameras might stop this sort of thing. . . but it has to happen every time!
if they think they can get away with it, then they will. . . because no one is there to stop them.
hence, the point of copwatch. ;)
there was a crowd this time ... but I am sure people backed off from the police