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New Hampshire Underground => Underground Projects => Topic started by: Rocketman on May 23, 2005, 01:08 AM NHFT

Title: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 23, 2005, 01:08 AM NHFT
Hey folks,

Inspired by all this manicure action, I just watched Gandhi with two friends (one of which is Sidney, whom those of you who have met me have also met).  We are pretty inspired at the moment, and are discussing the feasibility of publicly giving a six-pack of our homebrewed beer to an underage Iraq War veteran.  I think if we set it up properly, using a well-written letter to the authorities (ABC?) and a Dada-esque press release, this could be very well received by the public around here, where people are very openly supportive of the troops.  This could really awaken some of the latent anti-government sentiment that lurks among these hills.

We'd really like to hear what you NH folks think.  Thanks in advance.

Matt
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: John on May 23, 2005, 01:19 AM NHFT
I'm all for it!   :)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: AlanM on May 23, 2005, 01:23 AM NHFT
Go for it!
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dreepa on May 23, 2005, 01:48 AM NHFT
Great idea...
You would just have to find a willing underage vet....
Great photo of the cops arresting the vet in fatigues with a beer in his/her hand.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 23, 2005, 02:08 AM NHFT
There are, unfortunately, lots of underage vets in this part of the country.? Some don't have many other options than to join the military, so young people are leaving in droves, and some are coming back.? I don't expect the vet would be arrested, just the person offering him alcohol.? I also just got the idea that it should be done July 2 or 3, ostensibly so the vet will be able to properly celebrate his country's independence.? The person (Sidney) could thank the vet for serving his country and present him with the beer.? He could further state his intention to continue giving homebrews to underage vets -- after what they've been through, they deserve the freedom they're supposed to have been fighting for.

I don't think the vet would be arrested.? I expect the beer would be confiscated and Sidney would go to jail.? I'll look up the penalties tomorrow, I guess.? Gee, they're probably pretty harsh... but imagine the absurdity of jailtime for such an act!

Once the event succeeds, it can then be used to promote the Free State Project.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dreepa on May 23, 2005, 02:14 AM NHFT
Also check the laws between giving free beer and selling it to him.

It is illegal to drink under age so the cop would only be enforcing 50% of the illegal transaction if they didn't arrest the vet.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 23, 2005, 02:46 AM NHFT
My recollection from being under 21 is that cops crack down hard on people who provide alcohol to minors, but not so much on the minors themselves unless they get drunk and run amok.  I knew lots of minors who had their booze confiscated, and a few who were arrested for underage consumption, but I've never heard of an arrest for mere "underage possession" of alcohol.  He wouldn't be drinking the beer until July 4 anyway, and if the cops take it he'd never get the chance...

I hope cops like homebrew.   ;D

But if they did arrest the vet for accepting a six-pack of beer, I presume that would be front page news nationwide.  Wow, I think they'd have better sense than to let that happen.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: John on May 23, 2005, 03:22 AM NHFT
While listening to some music the other day I was struck by the words

" . . . I can join the Army, get killed in a fight, but I can't even get a legal drink tonight . . ."

These "kids" are fighting for what? - Freedom?

I hope the "kid" likes homebrew!  Best of luck.

Thank you for welcoming the "kids" home.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 23, 2005, 06:56 AM NHFT
Actually someone already had about the same idea.....it is a great idea. If you guys could reread all of the civil disobedience literature....it might help in the actual execution of the plan....but I don't see how you can wrong....as long as you do it nonviolently and are willing to serve some jail time for a silly "offense". :)

The more things like this we do the better. I bet you will get a lot of support around there. We have thought of many ways to go against the various drinking laws here also. :)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 23, 2005, 06:57 AM NHFT
I'm very happy to see the civil disobedience idea spreading.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on May 23, 2005, 07:55 AM NHFT

These "kids" are fighting for what? - Freedom?


Er.....Oil.....Nationbuilding.... diversion from real domestic problems....Bush's ego....some freedom for some Iraqui's, maybe....but, not our  freedom.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 23, 2005, 10:05 AM NHFT
BRILLIANT!!!  :)

"They can fight and die for our country, but not drink?"  Nothing proves this point better than civil disobedience!  :)

Remember, the worse they crack down on you, the more effective the event will be.  Just make sure everything is done in full view of the public!  Send the press releases out and the letters to the government at the same time.  Do a lot of research into Gandhi's principles, which are truly the key to a successful event.

I will do everything I can to help this event succeed!  You will be heros nationwide!
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 23, 2005, 10:56 AM NHFT
It looks like this is a Class B or Class A misdemeanor.? Check it out for yourself:
http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/244-00/CHAPTER.HTM
http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/244-00/990.PDF

Here's an initial partial rough draft of a Dada-style PR:

Activist to Sell Alcohol to Iraq War Veterans Under 21

?, Kentucky, May 23, 2005 - Inspired by the movie Gandhi and New Hampshire's "outlaw manicurist," a Kentucky man plans to defy Kentucky's underage drinking laws.? Matt ? of ? has announced that he will sell alcohol to veterans of the Iraq War who are under the age of 21 - the legal drinking age in Kentucky.

"In a free country," he says, "responsible adults are allowed to drink without the government's permission."

"At the age of 18, these men and women can fight and die for our freedom, but they are not allowed to drink until 21," he said.

Selling alcohol to minors is a misdemeanor under KRS Chapter 244.08.

Earlier this month another Gandhi admirer, Mike Fisher of Newmarket, New Hampshire, used the Mahatma's techniques to protest business licensing.? After announcing he would perform an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing offices, he followed through with his promise, earned a brief trip to jail, and received heavy regional media coverage for his point of view.

The plan is for Matt to sell alcohol to a veteran of the Iraq War on Monday, June 20, at noon, in front of the Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC) in Frankfort.

Summary:

What:? Civil disobedience against underage drinking laws.
Where:? Alcoholic Beverage Control, 1003 Twilight Trail, Frankfort, KY? 40601
When:? Monday, June 20 at noon
Who:? Matt ? of ?, KY, supporters from the Free State Project
Why:? To bring attention to the fact that certain adults are not allowed to drink alcohol.
How:? By selling alcohol to a veteran of the Iraq War, and continuing to do so until forced to stop.
Contacts:
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 23, 2005, 11:36 AM NHFT
Mike,

We really appreciate your support.? I've been trying to make sense of these statutes all morning.?

A few corrections:

I don't think there's any reason to sell the beer.? That would turn it into a licensing protest, since it's illegal for us to sell our beer to anyone regardless of age, and that would confuse the issue, which is the age of consent.? Sidney (whom you also met) will be the one giving beer to the vet.? He will make a short statement thanking the vet for his service and present him with the six-pack as a gift.? I will be the friendly neighborhood college professor who helps him refine his approach and sticks up for him in the media.

Also, I'm thinking the event should take place Saturday, July 2, ostensibly so the vet will be able to properly celebrate America's Independence on the 4th.

I think adults who give beer to minors are usually charged with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor," so I'm thinking the local cops might be the ones doing the arresting, not ABC.? This is pretty complicated, so I'll ask a lawyer for some clarification.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 23, 2005, 11:59 AM NHFT
a lawyer will tell you not to do it. :)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 23, 2005, 01:43 PM NHFT
Russell, that isn't what I'm going to ask.   :D

Gandhi himself was a lawyer, so he never needed to ask about the law, but it's awfully useful to know what the applicable laws are and how they are usually enforced.

The question will be "what is likely to happen in response to this action?"  Sidney and the vet (assuming we can find one) should know exactly what the risks are in advance. 
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 23, 2005, 01:46 PM NHFT
You could try writing to Evan Nappen or Tim Condon.  They'd likely give you advice :)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 23, 2005, 02:49 PM NHFT
I was just mentioning how almost everyone will want to talk you out of it. But I met Sidney.....he looks like just the man for alcohol related civil disobedience. ;D
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 23, 2005, 02:50 PM NHFT
I also don't figure that government officials are bound by the law....I expect the worst.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 24, 2005, 12:44 AM NHFT
How's this for a start?

Activist to Give Alcohol to Iraq War Veterans Under 21

?, Kentucky, May 23, 2005 - Inspired by the movie Gandhi and New Hampshire's "outlaw manicurist," a Kentucky man plans to defy Kentucky's underage drinking laws.? Sidney ? of ? has announced that he will give alcohol to a veteran of the Iraq War who is under the age of 21 - the legal drinking age in Kentucky.

"In a free country," he says, "responsible adults are allowed to drink without the government's permission."? "At the age of 18, these men and women can fight and die for our freedom, but they can't drink until 21."

In Kentucky, anyone giving alcohol to minors is guilty of a violation under KRS 244.085.3.? The law states "no person shall aid or assist any person under 21 years of age in purchasing or having delivered or served to him or her any alcoholic beverages."

Sidney plans to give a short speech thanking the veteran for his service, then present him with a six pack of homebrewed beer.? He vows to continue giving away alcohol to Iraq war veterans under age 21 until forced to stop.

Earlier this month another Gandhi admirer, Mike Fisher of Newmarket, New Hampshire, used the Mahatma's techniques to protest business licensing.? After announcing he would perform an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing offices, he followed through with his promise, earned a brief trip to jail, and received heavy regional media coverage for his point of view.

The plan is for Sidney to give alcohol to a veteran of the Iraq War on Saturday, July 2, at noon, in front of the Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC) in Frankfort.? Sidney said, "this will give the veteran a chance to properly celebrate America's Independence on the 4th."

Summary:

What:? Civil disobedience against underage drinking laws.
Where:? Alcoholic Beverage Control, 1003 Twilight Trail, Frankfort, KY? 40601
When:? Saturday, July 2, at noon
Who:? Sidney ? of ?, Matt ? of ?, supporters from the Free State Project (www.freestateproject.org).
Why:? To bring attention to the fact adults ages 18-20 are not allowed to possess or drink alcohol.
How:? By giving alcohol to veterans of the Iraq War under age 21, and continuing to do so until forced to stop.
Contacts:
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 24, 2005, 12:47 AM NHFT
The law is pretty clear in this case.  Giving alcohol to minors is a "violation".  In other words, it's like a traffic ticket.

However, if you do as this press release says and promise to refuse to stop, then force must be used to stop you from breaking the law.  This means they'll arrest you and jail you for a day unless you bail yourself out.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 24, 2005, 01:00 AM NHFT
The ABC will not arrest you for this, but that is irrelevant.  They are the ruling authority over alcohol enforcement in Kentucky, and in my opinion, this is the perfect place to do this!  :)

This event is not very risky.  There are only two things I can see happening:  either they try to ignore you and are forced to arrest you eventually, or they arrest you immediately.  There were several complex variables in my event, and there are also several in Russell's event, but there are none that I can see in yours.

As long as you can find a willing Iraq veteran under 21 that is willing to go to jail for a day or two for his freedom to drink alcohol, your event will be a success.

Of course, you will need to find a way to get the press' attention before the event in order to publicize it, and writing a letter to the ABC is probably the best way to do it.  If they try to sue you to prevent this from happening, it is even more likely that your impact will be greater than anticipated.  This is what happened to me!

This will definitely be a success if you can find two people willing to absorb the suffering necessary to carry it out!  :)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 24, 2005, 01:25 AM NHFT
As long as you can find a willing Iraq veteran under 21 that is willing to go to jail for a day or two for his freedom to drink alcohol, your event will be a success.
Shouldn't be too hard.  He'd be a hero among his peers.

Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 24, 2005, 05:25 AM NHFT
Do it in front on a bATF building :)  That'll get their attention! They'll probably kill you, though...
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dave Ridley on May 24, 2005, 11:00 AM NHFT
Awesome... can you get me in touch with the guy who's doing this drinking age protest so I can write a press release about him ?  PM me whatever info you think I should have for contacting him.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: j_freeman on May 24, 2005, 01:51 PM NHFT
Great idea, rocketman. Hope this act of civil disobedience goes as good as the licensing one in NH. I feel like doing a little bit of civil disobedience myself, so exciting. :D
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 24, 2005, 03:30 PM NHFT
Great idea, rocketman. Hope this act of civil disobedience goes as good as the licensing one in NH. I feel like doing a little bit of civil disobedience myself, so exciting. :D
Give us your idea and we will tell you "Go for it!" and everyone else can say "you don't want to get in trouble" ;)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dave Ridley on May 24, 2005, 05:39 PM NHFT
whoop never mind about the press release I see mike has it under control...good writing mike!
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 24, 2005, 05:42 PM NHFT
We're working on finding an underage vet who is willing -- I don't think it will take long.

To be clear: it's Sidney's idea, and his action.? I'm just supporting him, and I'll follow up with LTE's urging a new debate over the drinking age law and the erosion of liberty in general.

Another angle is that Sidney is a bartender, so he spends his working hours serving beverages, but wouldn't be allowed to serve an underage vet.? As for location, we figured he'd just do it on the steps of the Floyd County Courthouse in Prestonsburg (a small town -- 3000 folks).? If the tv cameras are rolling, I imagine the cops would have to arrest him.? The letters will state his intention of continuing to periodically reward underage vets with six-packs. ?Frankfort is a two hour drive, and I'm not sure traveling is necessary.? I agree that letters should be sent to ABC and perhaps other authorities, as well as press releases to all media well in advance of the event.

Mike, I appreciate your help with the press release.? Once the plan is finalized, we'll do a final version and distribute it.? We've got plenty of time to refine the approach. ?What's the best timetable for sending out the letters and press releases? ?Should anybody other than ABC get a letter, or can they be expected to pass the word along to other authorities who would consider themselves relevant?

Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: libertyhound on May 24, 2005, 06:01 PM NHFT
Hey Guys,

Sid here. I am glad you are all supporting our disobedience. This is a great idea i feel and perfect fot his area. although most people won't get it i think it might actually wake a few people up around here. I am employed as a bartender so i am not sure what this is gonna do to my job. Maybe my boss will be all about it as it could turn into publicity for the bar. I am gonna talk to him about it this week and see what is said. If i lose my job its no biggie and it might actually drive the point home even more. Hell if the ABC would beat me with a big stick it would be great but i doubt that happening. i think this is to be planned for just before july 4th. great timing there i think. Keep throwing support and ideas our way. Thanks for everything guys and i will see you at porc fest!!!!
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 24, 2005, 06:05 PM NHFT
"Libertyhound"...... yeah, that's fitting  ;D
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 24, 2005, 06:21 PM NHFT
You rock, Sid!
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 24, 2005, 07:36 PM NHFT
This is a much better idea than mine.......can you imagine people buying a beer for the young vet that just came home? :D
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dreepa on May 24, 2005, 07:47 PM NHFT
I see that you have two beer choices.

Anchor Steam's Liberty Ale
or
Samuel Adams.

The beer must fit the occasion.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 24, 2005, 07:48 PM NHFT
Maybe those can work for everyone else....these guys have their own brew to give away in Kentucky 8)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dreepa on May 24, 2005, 07:57 PM NHFT
Even Better.

Maybe make some labels that call it 'Vet's Privilege' or something to that effect.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 24, 2005, 07:58 PM NHFT
That is good. 8)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 24, 2005, 11:31 PM NHFT
We're working on finding an underage vet who is willing -- I don't think it will take long.

Check local liberty groups first.  Work quickly though!


To be clear: it's Sidney's idea, and his action.? I'm just supporting him, and I'll follow up with LTE's urging a new debate over the drinking age law and the erosion of liberty in general.

In order for the event to be a success, you must be able to bring at least ten or twenty supporters.  We aimed for 50 at the manicure event and about 27 showed up, with significant publicity.  Spam ALL pro-liberty groups in your state about this until you are absolutely positive at least a dozen people will be there.  If you do not know someone by first name and if you don't have their promise to show up, just assume they aren't coming.

Networking is the key here.  You need to be at every meeting of every pro-liberty group you can find in that area.  When they see the huge sacrifice you're making, and the huge success that has been found through these means, they WILL support you.  "Even a stupid manicure licensing event worked!  See for yourself on NHFree.com!"


Another angle is that Sidney is a bartender, so he spends his working hours serving beverages, but wouldn't be allowed to serve an underage vet.? As for location, we figured he'd just do it on the steps of the Floyd County Courthouse in Prestonsburg (a small town -- 3000 folks).? If the tv cameras are rolling, I imagine the cops would have to arrest him.? The letters will state his intention of continuing to periodically reward underage vets with six-packs. ?Frankfort is a two hour drive, and I'm not sure traveling is necessary.

You must travel to a central location to pull off your event.  If this is done in your own town, the statewide support will be weak, especially if your town is in the middle of nowhere.  You need supporters to show up, you need to make the event symbolic, and you MUST create a reaction from the government.  I do not see a better location than in front of the ABC.  You're basically walking up to the system itself and slapping it in the face.  If I had done my event in Newmarket, nobody would have noticed.


I agree that letters should be sent to ABC and perhaps other authorities, as well as press releases to all media well in advance of the event.

Mike, I appreciate your help with the press release.? Once the plan is finalized, we'll do a final version and distribute it.? We've got plenty of time to refine the approach. ?What's the best timetable for sending out the letters and press releases? ?Should anybody other than ABC get a letter, or can they be expected to pass the word along to other authorities who would consider themselves relevant?

Release everything about 3 weeks in advance.  Work your butt off to get at least a small local paper to recognize your event, then call newspapers, TV stations, and radio stations around the state and point them to the story.  Any time the media coverage escalates to another level, tell all the media outlets about it.  I started with one brand new local newsletter with no reputation or circulation, and told the media about our "planned coverage", and that helped escalate it to the next level.  Get any official response you can.  If necessary, have a friend call the bureaucrats in charge and ask for a statement for the press.  The media tried to ignore me, but when the Attorney General's lawsuit was filed, I could no longer be ignored.  You must have an official response of some type.  If they ignore you, you may lose any promise of coverage.

However, the fact that my event had significant coverage was more than enough for Russell's press release to be pursued because some members of the media are now regularly keeping in touch with me and asking what's next.  If you successfully piggy-back off my event's success in the media, you'll have media coverage.  This will be a self-sustaining process that nobody will be able to stop!  :)

Treat the media like gold.  Do not bribe them, but thank them at every opportunity like your world revolves around them.  Ask them what they need to know and give it to them.  Ask how you can help, and do it.  Call and e-mail the media every time an article is published, positive or not, and thank them graciously for the coverage.

You could send a letter to the ABC and the state Attorney General's office.  That should guarantee a response.  ;)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 24, 2005, 11:32 PM NHFT
Russell, are you listening to this stuff?  ;)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: libertyhound on May 25, 2005, 12:03 AM NHFT
First, thanks for your continued interest in this matter, Mike.? I don't think taking this show on the road to the capital is really what we need to do.? You have to understand how powerful the "Clannish" mentality in this area is.? I can get many more supporters here at home than I could at the capital.? As far as liberty goups in this state, well, they are almost nonexistent. The only one I know of is in its very early stages. That would be our local chapter of the Free State Project and its whopping 3 members. We will be there waving the gadsden, which I intend to have tattooed on my back by then. Most of the harsh anti government thought in this area hides in the hollows between these mountains and is rarely publicly voiced. I think our location is part of our strength and I would like to do this in my hometown.? I was raised here and if there is anything I can do for this place before I leave for NH, it is put it on the map for a few weeks with something like this. I also hope to generate a little curiosity in the area so Matt and I can "spread the good word" of freedom.?

We'll have everything ready for release three weeks in advance of the event.  We thought we had a vet, but it turns out he just turned 21, so back to work on that...
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 25, 2005, 12:08 AM NHFT
Yeah, there ain't no liberty groups in this area, nor any in Frankfort.? Instead we have liberty front porches in liberty "hollers."? I don't think attendance will be a problem if we can find a local vet to honor.?

Also, we'll have a website up and running by the time our press releases go out, and I expect that will help the cause.? Tomorrow is writing day for me.? ?:)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 25, 2005, 12:12 AM NHFT
First, thanks for your continued interest in this matter, Mike.? I don't think taking this show on the road to the capital is really what we need to do.? You have to understand how powerful the "Clannish" mentality in this area is.? I can get many more supporters here at home than I could at the capital.? As far as liberty goups in this state, well, they are almost nonexistent. The only one I know of is in its very early stages. That would be our local chapter of the Free State Project and its whopping 3 members. We will be there waving the gadsden, which I intend to have tattooed on my back by then. Most of the harsh anti government thought in this area hides in the hollows between these mountains and is rarely publicly voiced. I think our location is part of our strength and I would like to do this in my hometown.? I was raised here and if there is anything I can do for this place before I leave for NH, it is put it on the map for a few weeks with something like this. I also hope to generate a little curiosity in the area so Matt and I can "spread the good word" of freedom.?

We'll have everything ready for release three weeks in advance of the event.? We thought we had a vet, but it turns out he just turned 21, so back to work on that...

That's a great sentiment! ?We are all learning in this process, so definitely do what you feel is right! ?Thanks for considering my opinion!

I'm only talking about what worked for me in general and following my advice is not necessary. ?What's really important is to get the media to show up, as well as some supporters.

Another thing that worked for me was to put all of my attention into the event during the weeks leading up to it. ?There is little room for slacking off! ?;) ?You're going to suffer. ?Suffer for a reason! ?Make it count! ?:)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 25, 2005, 12:15 AM NHFT
We will be there waving the gadsden, which I intend to have tattooed on my back by then.

WOOHOO!!!

NICE!   8)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dreepa on May 25, 2005, 12:28 AM NHFT
May Mike's Manicure
June Russell ' I just want to fly'
July  Vets just wants a beer.

What's in store for August?  Protest a month is happening... wait until it is 'protest per week.'   >:D
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 25, 2005, 12:35 AM NHFT
May Mike's Manicure
June Russell ' I just want to fly'
July? Vets just wants a beer.

What's in store for August?? Protest a month is happening... wait until it is 'protest per week.'? ?>:D

August:  Mass burning of national IDs (passports and social security cards) at state capitals nationwide.  Kat's idea.  ;)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 25, 2005, 02:13 AM NHFT
Shit, I paid good money for that passport.  (I got it via the rush option.)  There's no way I'm setting that on fire.  On top of that, I've already burned my SS card.  Phooey!
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 25, 2005, 07:31 AM NHFT
Russell, are you listening to this stuff?? ;)
I am in seclusion. ;)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 25, 2005, 07:43 AM NHFT
Mike, I don't think the amount of supporters who attend matters that much.  None of the media mentioned it.  I think yours would have been fine with you and "victim".  ;D
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 25, 2005, 07:59 AM NHFT
Here's a place you could start to locate a guy to give the beer to:

V F W Post 5839
(606) 886-9428     
3106 S Lake Dr
Prestonsburg, KY

I bet you anything that all the men in the VFW will support your cause.  They might even show up for it!  I'm guessing that if there aren't any Iraq vets in there, they can connect you with some.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dave Ridley on May 25, 2005, 09:21 AM NHFT
Regarding the tatoo-- wow!

Here is the partical sketch of the NH-centric press release I've started regarding this KY event:

Please help me fill in the blanks...and correct mistakes.

---


NH outlaw manicurist inspires similar protest in KY

First it was an illegal manicure in Concord, then a plan to try and fly out of Manchester Airport without I.D.  Now a third piece of libertarian civil disobedience is in the works...inspired by the first.

Sidney   ____, a Kentucky bartender, says he will hand a sixpack of his hombrewed beer to an underage Iraq War veteran shortly before Independence Day.

"In a free country," he says, "responsible adults are allowed to drink without the government's permission.  At the age of 18, these men and women can fight and die for our freedom, but they can't drink until 21."

What do these three acts of rebellion have in common?  Each defies unjust laws. All follow the "Ghandi model" of peaceful resistance.  And all are being "perpetrated" by members of the Free State Project (www.FreeStateProject.org), a New Hampshire-based movement aimed at drawing freeedom lovers to the Granite State.  Though currently a resident of _____, Sidney is (one of the 6,500 "Free Staters" who have promised to move here?) Three hundred and sixty are already here.

If jailed , ____ will likely be the fifth Free Stater arrested for refusing on principle to comply with some government edict.   In 2003, FSP member Tim Condon refused to stop handing out literature about the Free State Project in front of a Florida convention center.  Authorities booked him, but charges were later dropped.  In 2004, Manchester construction worker and FSP member Joel Rauch refused to stop soliciting signatures for a Libertarian candidate in front of a Nashua post office.  He also went to jail briefly but won in court.   This May, Free Stater Mike Fisher of Newmarket - who runs a computer repair shop - announced he would appear in front of the state licensing offices and perform unlicensed manicures "until they force me to stop."  He kept the promise, earned a one-night stay in the pokey and received heavy regional publicity for his view that "in a free country you do not need permission from the government to start a business.   On June 11, Russell Kanning of Keene will likely suffer arrest as well when he approaches a TSA checkpoint at the Manchester Airport with a ticket but no I.D.  He will refuse to cooperate with the I.D. requirement and continue peaceful efforts to board his flight until arrested or allowed on the plane.  Sidney's act of resistance will occurr on ___.

What:  Civil disobedience against underage drinking laws.
Where: ?
When:  Saturday, July 2, at noon
Who:  Sidney ? of ?, Matt ? of ?, supporters from the Free State Project (www.freestateproject.org).
Why:  To bring attention to the fact adults ages 18-20 are not allowed to possess or drink alcohol.
How:  By giving alcohol to a veteran of the Iraq War under age 21, and continuing to do so until forced to stop.
Contacts:

Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dave Ridley on May 25, 2005, 09:26 AM NHFT
At mike's protest, one thing we were really happy to have had was a video camera and one of our own people recording most of the stuff that happened.

Hopefully you can do the same and at some point that will be useful when documentaries are made about this stuff.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on May 25, 2005, 03:31 PM NHFT
That looks great, Dada.? And yes, we will definitely find somebody with a video camera.

We've penciled in Monday, June 6 as the day to send out press releases and launch the website, which I've been working on today.? We want to have all our ducks in a row before alerting the media, I think.? Not ready to answer any questions just yet...

I'll be leaving tomorrow to visit my family and friends in WV for a week or so, but I'll continue researching and writing copy for the website.? Sidney has a friend who will do the website code, and we will definitely have it up, edited, and ready for action by June 6.? Sid figures that if he's going to jail for this, we might as well do everything possible to ensure the maximum positive response possible.?

Sid's working today on finding a willing vet.? Kat, thanks for the VFW tip.

Oh, and FTL_Ian: one of us will definitely call your show June 6 to discuss the plan.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dreepa on May 25, 2005, 03:33 PM NHFT
Maybe sell teeshirts on the site.

'Jailed for saluting a vet'

All proceeds go to paying Sid's fine.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 25, 2005, 04:58 PM NHFT
Oh, and FTL_Ian: one of us will definitely call your show June 6 to discuss the plan.

I can dig it.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 26, 2005, 11:29 PM NHFT
Be careful when looking for an Iraq War veteran under 21.  Even asking for someone to break the law is itself illegal, though I can't remember what this type of "crime" is called.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 27, 2005, 11:12 PM NHFT
If it takes a while to find an underage veteran, you can simply push back the date a few weeks.

But do not give up!  :)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 28, 2005, 07:23 AM NHFT
Hey if you can't find a vet.....just go for special deals for 20 year olds........you could build up quite a business.......we have selective prohabition right now. :)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 28, 2005, 10:05 PM NHFT
Another thought:

It doesn't have to be a veteran.  It can be a new recruit or any troop.  It should be extremely easy to find someone in the Army under 21.  I just ran into a guy who's an 18 year old new recruit at the tattoo shop a few weeks ago.  Try to find someone you know and can trust.  You don't want them to back out when the pressure is on, and it WILL be on.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 28, 2005, 10:32 PM NHFT
What, did you think they'd get honors and medals for it?? ?::)? It's just a violation, not even a misdemeanor, to give alcohol to someone under 21.? It should not be more than a simple violation to receive and possess the alcohol.

Like I said, it would need to be someone you can trust, someone who can take it.

Or you could look for someone 18-20 is planning to sign up for the military but hasn't yet.

Or it could be anyone 18-20 who is a respectable person in the community that will make people realize that he is a responsible adult.? It's not entirely necessary to use patriotism against the government, though it could be more effective.  I would personally avoid using patriotism at all, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 29, 2005, 12:34 AM NHFT
Thanks for the research.

Yes, breaking the law results in suffering.

That's the whole point.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on May 29, 2005, 10:57 AM NHFT
You should know the consequences of what you are encouraging people to do.

It's the outlaw's responsibility to know the consequences.  That much is obvious.  Do not assume that responsibility is mine in any case but for my own event.

That said, thanks for the research.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: KBCraig on June 02, 2005, 07:17 PM NHFT
Entirely apropos to the proposed action of giving a beer to a veteran under 21, these two articles appeared today:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158455,00.html

Lowering the Drinking Age for Soldiers
Thursday, June 02, 2005
By Linda Vester

If a soldier is old enough to go to Iraq and shoot bad guys, should he/she be allowed to drink? That's the question right now in Wisconsin, where a state lawmaker is lobbying to get the drinking age for local soldiers lowered from 21 to 19.


And,

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158417,00.html

Should the Drinking Age Be Lowered to 19 for Those Serving in the Military?
Thursday, June 02, 2005

This is a partial transcript of "The Big Story With John Gibson," June 1, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

JOHN GIBSON, HOST: They are old enough to risk their lives for our country, but when it comes to cracking open a cold one, they are still not allowed. One Wisconsin lawmaker wants to change that. He's fighting now to lower the drinking age from 21 to 19 for those who are serving in the military.

Joining us now is the man behind this, Rep. Mark Pettis, R-Wis., and Jim Copple, director of the International Institute for Alcohol Awareness.


I see an excellent opportunity to raise more awareness here.

Kevin
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Michael Fisher on June 02, 2005, 10:01 PM NHFT
I'm trying to put Sidney and Matt in touch with the reporter from the Concord Monitor, but Sidney's e-mail isn't working!

Help?!

Sidney?  Matt?  Are you here???
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dreepa on June 03, 2005, 01:34 AM NHFT
I was just talking about this issue with a soldier returning from Iraq at the airport.
I gave him this website and said that there are groups trying to fight it.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: John on June 05, 2005, 06:18 AM NHFT
http://latimes.com/includes/ramirez/ramirez_20050528.gif
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on June 05, 2005, 07:59 AM NHFT
Entirely apropos to the proposed action of giving a beer to a veteran under 21, these two articles appeared today:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158455,00.html

Lowering the Drinking Age for Soldiers
Thursday, June 02, 2005
By Linda Vester

If a soldier is old enough to go to Iraq and shoot bad guys, should he/she be allowed to drink? That's the question right now in Wisconsin, where a state lawmaker is lobbying to get the drinking age for local soldiers lowered from 21 to 19.


And,

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158417,00.html

Should the Drinking Age Be Lowered to 19 for Those Serving in the Military?
Thursday, June 02, 2005

This is a partial transcript of "The Big Story With John Gibson," June 1, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

JOHN GIBSON, HOST: They are old enough to risk their lives for our country, but when it comes to cracking open a cold one, they are still not allowed. One Wisconsin lawmaker wants to change that. He's fighting now to lower the drinking age from 21 to 19 for those who are serving in the military.

Joining us now is the man behind this, Rep. Mark Pettis, R-Wis., and Jim Copple, director of the International Institute for Alcohol Awareness.


I see an excellent opportunity to raise more awareness here.

Kevin


Oooooo, special  citizens, with special rights, now, there is an issue!

Actually, on military bases, I doubt they enforce minumum age laws.  When I was in Basic Training at Ft. Dix, we went to the Beer gardens and drank (real beer, not,3.2) and were never asked for ID.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: John on June 05, 2005, 08:09 AM NHFT
Well I think that times may have changed that sort of thing.
Just a guess.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: KBCraig on June 05, 2005, 11:10 AM NHFT
Actually, on military bases, I doubt they enforce minumum age laws.  When I was in Basic Training at Ft. Dix, we went to the Beer gardens and drank (real beer, not,3.2) and were never asked for ID.

Trust me, times have changed. When I first started Army training, the drinking age on base was 18, but if you were in the Army, you were presumed to be of age (very few made it to active duty at age 17, although it was possible). Soda machines in the barracks usually had one or two brands of beer in addition to Coke and Pepsi.

When I started active duty in 1986, DoD ordered all military bases to raise their drinking age to that of the surrounding state. At the same time, all states were coerced to raise their drinking age to 21, or lose their highway funding. Unlike the "G.I. dives" just off post, you can bet that the drinking age was rigorously enforced on base.

And so, our 17-20 year old soldiers who would previously drink at the EM club and walk back to their barracks, were now heading downtown where their age wouldn't be so carefully scrutinized. The number of DUIs shot up. Gee, I wonder why?

I understand your "special citizens with special rights" argument; obviously we wouldn't want to stop there. The point of the exercise, just like filing and buffing Kat's nails, is to use an extreme and sympathetic example to urge change. If it's silly to deny a drink to a veteran who has spent two years in combat, it's also silly to deny it to his classmate who is on active duty, but hasn't gone overseas yet. And to their classmate who joined the National Guard to help pay for college. And to their classmate who is taking the ROTC scholarship and is pre-med. And to their other classmates who are married, working, and raising children, but haven't hit the magic age of 21.

Kevin
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: libertyhound on June 05, 2005, 11:35 PM NHFT
ok guys sorry about all the not being on here. Its been crazy round these here parts. Matt has skipped town for a few weeks and i have been both busy and lazy. I am still searching for a willing vet for this aqtion and am getting a few leads here and there but nothing concrete so far. I dunno about my email it should be working. Try and of these lol    sidneycline@hotmail.com, sidneycline@yahoo.com, bubathemagicelf@hotmail.com or gods_own_prototype@msn.com if none of these work i am dead :)
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: John on June 06, 2005, 01:04 AM NHFT
I think you're living.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Rocketman on June 09, 2005, 03:37 PM NHFT
Sorry to all concerned for not making the penciled-in June 6 deadline.  My short visit to WV turned into an interesting business opportunity that it's taking all of my time to pursue (make money=move to NH!).

However, I have finally returned to KY for a couple days, and I just had lunch with Sid.  No vet yet, and he's gonna try a few other avenues.  If he doesn't find somebody right away, I suppose the event will be postponed until the right person is located.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: Dave Ridley on June 09, 2005, 10:39 PM NHFT
Maybe I can make a press release of some kind indicating that you are looking for a vet to do this.... 

or maybe i could write an LTE to one or more KY papers listing your contact info?
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience Idea -- Feedback Wanted
Post by: KBCraig on June 10, 2005, 01:42 AM NHFT
Maybe I can make a press release of some kind indicating that you are looking for a vet to do this.... 

or maybe i could write an LTE to one or more KY papers listing your contact info?

Ft. Knox area:
Elizabethtown News-Enterprise (http://www.newsenterpriseonline.com/)
Frankfort State-Journal (http://www.state-journal.com/)

Ft. Campbell area:
Hopkinsville (KY) New Era (http://www.kentuckynewera.com/)
Clarksville (TN) Leaf Chronicle (http://www.theleafchronicle.com/)
Nashville Tennessean (http://www.tennessean.com/)