Here's what I'm thinking on an ID card burning:
Sometime toward the end of June or better yet, the 4th of July, we stage an ID card burning event. I'd be promoting it across the country with all the groups/people I can find who are pissed off to the max about the Real ID act. There would hopefully be burnings across the country, and we'd be sending a clear message to Washington that we're not going to put up with this crap.
Questions:
What would be the best locale for this?
Would we want arrests for this one?
If so, what would be getting us arrested?
I would wait until we, actually, have Federally enforced I.D. for this.
Something else to consider. In a world where government isn't running every aspect of our lives, one's reputation will determine if others will deal with you. In many instances, you are going to have to prove you are who you say you are.
Even in the early days of the U.S., people carried papers, discribing them, written by the minister, judge, or, someone authority type, from where they came, when they traveled. Failure to have these papers made it difficult to get accepted in a new town.
Unanimous Treason (http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_constitution&Number=293640495&page=&view=&sb=&o=&part=1&vc=1&t=0)
Got some discussion on this going on here.
Why wait until it's a done deal? Why not oppose it now while there's some chance of stopping it?
Having papers is one thing, having a national database with all your info, available on RFID readable at a distance, given over to foreign governments....is that what you want?
Quote from: katdillon on May 24, 2005, 07:44 AM NHFT
Unanimous Treason (http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_constitution&Number=293640495&page=&view=&sb=&o=&part=1&vc=1&t=0)
Got some discussion on this going on here.
Why wait until it's a done deal?? Why not oppose it now while there's some chance of stopping it?
Having papers is one thing, having a national database with all your info, available on RFID readable at a distance, given over to foreign governments....is that what you want?
Of course not.
Then burn some Giant representations of National ID cards. Burn lots of them!
I'm working on one now, for a print add.
But, burning pieces of ID, like driver's licenses, that people commonly accept, is, not only, low visability, but, people who may understand the dangers of a National ID, might not get it.
We could each make a giant representation of a National ID card on posterboard, with our pictures on them and take turns burning them.
Quote from: katdillon on May 24, 2005, 04:44 AM NHFT
Here's what I'm thinking on an ID card burning:
Sometime toward the end of June or better yet, the 4th of July, we stage an ID card burning event.? I'd be promoting it across the country with all the groups/people I can find who are pissed off to the max about the Real ID act.? There would hopefully be burnings across the country, and we'd be sending a clear message to Washington that we're not going to put up with this crap.? ?
Questions:
What would be the best locale for this??
Would we want arrests for this one??
If so, what would be getting us arrested?
To create a government response, civil disobedience events could be organized around the country to break ID-related laws.
-Burn passports (government property).
-Burn social security cards (government property).
-I can't think of anything else.? ????? ;)
This is a truly brilliant idea, Kat, especially considering what people are saying about Real ID on the net!!!
In my opinion, FORGET waiting for yet another form of federal ID to be implemented! Real ID is the legal framework for a Hitleresque National ID card that MUST be stopped before it is fully implemented!
Burning other forms of national IDs would be an ideal way to protest against this!
I like the idea of burning a big social security card. Will be much more symbolic and easier for the TV cameras to capture.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 25, 2005, 01:15 AM NHFT
I like the idea of burning a big social security card.? Will be much more symbolic and easier for the TV cameras to capture.
Good idea, but a symbolic social security card is not government property and there will be no arrest for this.
Could do both to make it more visual. A big SS card bonfire with real ones thrown in.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 25, 2005, 09:31 AM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 25, 2005, 01:15 AM NHFT
I like the idea of burning a big social security card.? Will be much more symbolic and easier for the TV cameras to capture.
Good idea, but a symbolic social security card is not government property and there will be no arrest for this.
I don't understand the added value of getting arrested. If the media shows up and covers the event in a positive light isn't that just as valuable? If 100 citizen show up to help/view the protest that would be even better.
Quote from: katdillon on May 25, 2005, 09:35 AM NHFT
Could do both to make it more visual. A big SS card bonfire with real ones thrown in.
*nods*
Quote from: GDouglas on May 25, 2005, 10:06 AM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 25, 2005, 09:31 AM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 25, 2005, 01:15 AM NHFT
I like the idea of burning a big social security card.? Will be much more symbolic and easier for the TV cameras to capture.
Good idea, but a symbolic social security card is not government property and there will be no arrest for this.
I don't understand the added value of getting arrested. If the media shows up and covers the event in a positive light isn't that just as valuable? If 100 citizen show up to help/view the protest that would be even better.
The difference between a protest and a civil disobedience is the difference between mediocre and extreme media coverage. ;)
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 25, 2005, 11:39 AM NHFTThe difference between a protest and a civil disobedience is the difference between mediocre and extreme media coverage.? ;)
I think it also shows the evil of the law better if someone is punished while hurting noone.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 25, 2005, 11:39 AM NHFT
Quote from: GDouglas on May 25, 2005, 10:06 AM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 25, 2005, 09:31 AM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 25, 2005, 01:15 AM NHFT
I like the idea of burning a big social security card.? Will be much more symbolic and easier for the TV cameras to capture.
Good idea, but a symbolic social security card is not government property and there will be no arrest for this.
I don't understand the added value of getting arrested. If the media shows up and covers the event in a positive light isn't that just as valuable? If 100 citizen show up to help/view the protest that would be even better.
The difference between a protest and a civil disobedience is the difference between mediocre and extreme media coverage.? ;)
There are more factors than either of these to explain what attracts media attention.
If Russell's event is as successful as I hope it will be, the media coverage could be unprecedented in the history of the libertarian movement.
We should have plans and press releases prepared for the National ID Rebellion civil disobedience event to be announced during the peak of his press coverage. We can pass the press release along to everyone we speak to.
The event could be simple to organize. For example:
On Independence Day, at noon, (not adjusted for time zones so the coverage will be continuous throughout the day) social security cards and passports will be burned illegally at state capitals and town halls across the country.
Or it could be at the capitol building in Concord and only towns across New Hampshire. It depends on the success of Russell's event.
Listen, I hate the idea of REAL ID as much as any of you,
but there is NO nationally mandated ID yet. The New Hampshire legislature may yet vote not to comply with the federal requirements. The law is not a mandate, and states still have a choice.
People don't have to get arrested every time we make a point. We should be happy that there are still legal ways to protest in this country.
I would also ask why we should use illegal means as a first resort in communicating our ideas. There is an appropriate time and place for such action, but the state has not yet decided to go along with this.
I like Russell's protest because our right to travel is already overly restricted, but you do not yet need to submit to a federal ID database to deal with the federal government.
If REAL ID becomes a reality, everyone could use a passport to deal with the Feds. I believe that the feds would obtain less info through such documents.
Let's not lose credibility in the eyes of the establishment, while this battle is still being waged in the legislature. It would seem more apropriate to use illegal means of defiance IF this law is adopted.
Quote from: citizen_142002 on June 07, 2005, 10:52 PM NHFT
but there is NO nationally mandated ID yet. The New Hampshire legislature may yet vote not to comply with the federal requirements. The law is not a mandate, and states still have a choice.
Yes, and we should be active to draw NH's attention to making the right choice, and refusing the ID, thereby severing most (all?) federal ties. It would be a huge step towards Liberty.
QuotePeople don't have to get arrested every time we make a point.
No, people don't
have to get arrested, but the press coverage is sure heavier when arrests happen. Most protests don't generate that much coverage.
QuoteWe should be happy that there are still legal ways to protest in this country.
I would also ask why we should use illegal means as a first resort in communicating our ideas.
Simple. The laws are bad. They deserve to be broken. It's our duty as good Americans to break unjust laws. Then fight them in court via Jury Nullification. Our positions are honorable, and principled.
QuoteThere is an appropriate time and place for such action, but the state has not yet decided to go along with this.
Again, we need to ensure they do not.
QuoteLet's not lose credibility in the eyes of the establishment, while this battle is still being waged in the legislature. It would seem more apropriate to use illegal means of defiance IF this law is adopted.
It's only awaiting Georgie Boy's signature, and if you know Georgie, you know he
loves to sign bills.
Quote from: citizen_142002 on June 07, 2005, 10:52 PM NHFT
If REAL ID becomes a reality, everyone could use a passport to deal with the Feds.
The Feds took away my passport a couple of years ago. Some of us don't want to use any ID.
I will Never, ever, carry a Fucking National ID Card!
That's the attitude! :)
The Federal laws ARE bad, but New Hampshire's government can still not follow them. We do need to make a point to the state, but if we use civil disobiedience now, then what leverage do we have in the future.
We ought to tell Concord that they should not comply with REAL ID, and IF they do, then we will not obey this new and unjust law. Don't use every resource that you have at once. If and when New Hampshire complies with REAL ID, then I will be glad to take part in some civil disobiedience myself.
Your goals are admirable, but it is unrealistic to think that New Hampshire will sever most federal ties over an ID act that is not yet in force, especially when it can choose to not cooperate with just this act.
I'm dicussing tactics here, not ideals. Live Free or Die.
well put.
Someone needs to call in the 8pm hour tonight when we're on in NH and give us the lowdown... please do not call during the 7p hour!
I have to say I am in agreement. First try to keep the legistlators on our side, hopefully the NH Reps and Senators will join with other states in refusing to follow a national ID act. That does't mean do nothing, but flooding them with e-mails, letter, phone calls, and petitions maybe the first step. Make sure their is a good showing of people when the matter is heard on the floor to sign the sheet against it and perhaps those that are inclinded or have the know how can speak.
Oh, course if all else fails and the powers that be don't take the appropriate stand on this matter than acts of civil disobedience would be in order.
As an inclusive Porc, I see a blend of 'street theater' and working within the system to get the message to the people and NH's government.
these are the guys I don't trust with RFID here (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=2540)
From today's Monadnock Shopper
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I'm new to New Hampshire ... can anyone tell me what the process is for putting a referendum on the ballot? Maybe we could get a NH referendum to condemn the national id and have NH opt out of it, as well as sending a strongly worded rebuke to the feds.
Caleb
On the state level, there's no way to do that. You find a sympathetic representative and ask him to promote your bill.
With 400 of 'em, you're bound to find a sympathizer!