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New Hampshire Underground => Voluntaryism/Anarchism => Topic started by: ChristianAnarchist on September 18, 2007, 10:59 AM NHFT

Title: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 18, 2007, 10:59 AM NHFT
Hi everyone.  Some of you know me from the freetalklive BBS and I'm fed up with the disgusting pictures and vulgar language the insecure little kids keep posting there so I'm here promoting liberty and my version of Christianity (they go hand in hand in my opinion).

Everything I post is my opinion of life based on my life's experiences and so here is what I posted a couple of years back on the freetalklive BBS under a similar topic heading.  This topic became one of the most "popular" and controversial on that board...

Why would I say that Christian Anarchy is the best sensible answer... Let me count the ways...

1.  Most here believe that we have "inalienable rights" although most don't know why our rights
are inalienable.  The old guys who founded this fiction called USA understood them to be so
because they believed we were CREATED with them (by a Creator).  Remember the common
words that most believe in such "All men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain
inalienable rights, among them are..."  Certainly if you cut out a belief in "the Creator" you gut
the authority for rights in the preceding ideal.  If you cut the Creator, where does the authority
for your creation of rights come from?  Little green men?  The Id?  Do you simply believe they
are "just there"?  Why??  If your rights come from a Creator who is of course great enough to
create you and your rights, then they are truly inalienable due to the fact that someone at least
as "great" as your "Creator" would be needed to destroy them.  Certainly a mere man is not
as great as that which created him so a man would not be "great" enough to destroy what was
"created" by his "creator".

2.  As Christians, the old guys who founded the fiction USA understood the Christian idea that all
men were sinners and none are "good" enough to be entrusted with "ruling" over any other men.
Therefore they tried a "new" idea never before tried in history.  Was it a "republic"?  No, Rome
was a republic as well as others.  The "new" idea was "sovereignty", another idea that came from
Christianity.  All men are Kings and Princes in Christ, Paul said (or at least someone who we have
been led to believe was Paul).  So the "experiment" was to put men in the rightful position as
"creator" of the fiction USA.  As "creators", the fiction USA could have no authority over over
it's creators any more than we can have authority over God.  No authority = anarchy.

3.  The "experiment" has failed miserably as man (the rightful authority over the fiction USA)
has "forgotten" that each one is "over" his "servant" fiction USA and has allowed the fiction
to take on a form and power which is simulating a true entity (which it is not).  Man has
neglected his own Creator which is the rightful authority over him and has forsaken his
stewardship of keeping the fiction USA in line.

4.  Since the fiction USA is no longer within the authority of it's creator man, the fiction ceases
to exist.  It is replaced by REAL MEN who are acting out as if they have some authority from
this "fiction" that allows them to use FORCE over their fellow man.  These real men who use
force are violating the rights of their fellow man.  Most are deceived into believing that the fiction
really exists and gives them some magical power over others.

5.  Since they have no legitimate power, we are already living in anarchy, you just don't know it.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Tom Sawyer on September 18, 2007, 11:28 AM NHFT
Welcome to the forum.  :)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: d_goddard on September 18, 2007, 11:32 AM NHFT
Nice to see you here, Gene :)

I'd kive you a "welcome Home" +1 karma point, but you created The Thread That Will Not Die already ;)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Ogre on September 18, 2007, 11:33 AM NHFT
Now if someone would just tell the masses and the government that we're an anarchy, things would be much more peaceful around here...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Lex on September 18, 2007, 11:43 AM NHFT
I think Pagan Anarchy is the best answer...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: shyfrog on September 18, 2007, 12:00 PM NHFT
nah dude...Mormon Anarchy all the way   :icon_pirat:
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Lasse on September 18, 2007, 12:38 PM NHFT
Oo, uh, nope, sorry. I don't need a hokey religion in order to enjoy, wish for or work towards liberty. Yes, I have inalienable natural rights, they are just there, and I'm not going to let you use that perception of rights as some excuse to proselytize. I live in a country with a state church and 90% membership of that church, if I wanted to believe in eternal damnation and exclusion of homosexuals, hindus, muslims and people I don't like, I would have joined the crowd a long time ago. They ('they' as in government, not parents) tried forcing it on me - compulsory public school attendance with subsequent compulsury prayer, christian ed and church attendance. Hey, guess what, I'm still not biting that whole death cult membership thing.

Welcome, though. I'm sure we agree on at least 80% of the issues. :P
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Braddogg on September 18, 2007, 01:07 PM NHFT
All of that presupposes the existence of a god.  The Founders were wrong: gods do not exist.  And that has been discussed ad nauseum on this thread: http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=6686.0.  If you have something to add to that thread, Gene, go for it :)  If I can be convinced that God exists, I'll happily go back to being a Christian anarchist.

Our inalienable rights come from the application of morality, and morality must be based on rationality, logic, and the application of something approximating the scientific method.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Kat Kanning on September 18, 2007, 01:33 PM NHFT
Welcome, I suspect you'll like it here.  :)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: KBCraig on September 18, 2007, 01:34 PM NHFT
Bah. I'm for Cthuluian Anarchy!
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: AlexLibman on September 18, 2007, 01:35 PM NHFT
I know of a few examples of Neo-Tolstoyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolstoyan), Neo-Transcendentalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau), and other Christian movements that can sort of be called pro-Liberty, at least as long as you voluntarily submit to basic Christian values.  Those movements are very small and very rare, probably representing less than 1% of the world's Christian population (unless you include the Alex Jones types, in which case you might get as much as 3%).  At the same time you have movements like Objectivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29), which is nearly 100% pro-Liberty.  Christianity clearly isn't the silver bullet here...

Nonetheless, welcome to the forum!  (Though I mostly just lurk here until I get serious about FSP... someday... maybe... or not...)  Hope you won't abandon the FTL forum entirely, the two complement each-other nicely depending on what mood you're in.  And: best of luck!   :)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: dalebert on September 18, 2007, 01:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on September 18, 2007, 01:34 PM NHFT
Bah. I'm for Cthuluian Anarchy!

2nded.

Hello Cthulhu (http://www.hello-cthulhu.com/)

(http://www.hello-cthulhu.com/images/comics/en/000.gif)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ladyattis on September 18, 2007, 03:16 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 18, 2007, 10:59 AM NHFT
Hi everyone.  Some of you know me from the freetalklive BBS and I'm fed up with the disgusting pictures and vulgar language the insecure little kids keep posting there so I'm here promoting liberty and my version of Christianity (they go hand in hand in my opinion).

Everything I post is my opinion of life based on my life's experiences and so here is what I posted a couple of years back on the freetalklive BBS under a similar topic heading.  This topic became one of the most "popular" and controversial on that board...

Why would I say that Christian Anarchy is the best sensible answer... Let me count the ways...

1.  Most here believe that we have "inalienable rights" although most don't know why our rights
are inalienable.  The old guys who founded this fiction called USA understood them to be so
because they believed we were CREATED with them (by a Creator).  Remember the common
words that most believe in such "All men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain
inalienable rights, among them are..."  Certainly if you cut out a belief in "the Creator" you gut
the authority for rights in the preceding ideal.  If you cut the Creator, where does the authority
for your creation of rights come from?  Little green men?  The Id?  Do you simply believe they
are "just there"?  Why??  If your rights come from a Creator who is of course great enough to
create you and your rights, then they are truly inalienable due to the fact that someone at least
as "great" as your "Creator" would be needed to destroy them.  Certainly a mere man is not
as great as that which created him so a man would not be "great" enough to destroy what was
"created" by his "creator".

2.  As Christians, the old guys who founded the fiction USA understood the Christian idea that all
men were sinners and none are "good" enough to be entrusted with "ruling" over any other men.
Therefore they tried a "new" idea never before tried in history.  Was it a "republic"?  No, Rome
was a republic as well as others.  The "new" idea was "sovereignty", another idea that came from
Christianity.  All men are Kings and Princes in Christ, Paul said (or at least someone who we have
been led to believe was Paul).  So the "experiment" was to put men in the rightful position as
"creator" of the fiction USA.  As "creators", the fiction USA could have no authority over over
it's creators any more than we can have authority over God.  No authority = anarchy.

3.  The "experiment" has failed miserably as man (the rightful authority over the fiction USA)
has "forgotten" that each one is "over" his "servant" fiction USA and has allowed the fiction
to take on a form and power which is simulating a true entity (which it is not).  Man has
neglected his own Creator which is the rightful authority over him and has forsaken his
stewardship of keeping the fiction USA in line.

4.  Since the fiction USA is no longer within the authority of it's creator man, the fiction ceases
to exist.  It is replaced by REAL MEN who are acting out as if they have some authority from
this "fiction" that allows them to use FORCE over their fellow man.  These real men who use
force are violating the rights of their fellow man.  Most are deceived into believing that the fiction
really exists and gives them some magical power over others.

5.  Since they have no legitimate power, we are already living in anarchy, you just don't know it.

Prove God and I might consider it. Otherwise, I'm a die hard Objectivist.

-- Brede
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: toowm on September 18, 2007, 04:01 PM NHFT
Welcome Gene! I have enjoyed your reports on China for FTL. Any chance of moving to the Free State?

I'm a Christian but not an anarchist, so I'm the yang to the previous posters' yin. Hope that doesn't make me a Taoist. ;)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 18, 2007, 04:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: toowm on September 18, 2007, 04:01 PM NHFT
Welcome Gene! I have enjoyed your reports on China for FTL. Any chance of moving to the Free State?

I'm a Christian but not an anarchist, so I'm the yang to the previous posters' yin. Hope that doesn't make me a Taoist. ;)

I joined the FSP quite some time ago but it will be several years until we are free from our obligations here...

Looking forward to it...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 18, 2007, 05:39 PM NHFT
I agree.
How did you come to these conclusions? I was completely blown away by Tolstoy's book and it has changed my views on many things.

So how should we then live? :)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: TylerM on September 18, 2007, 06:41 PM NHFT
I'm a Christian, and an Anarchist, but not a "Christian anarchist" by the definition I think you mean. I do believe that the state was, if anything else, a punishment from God (granted upon the Israelites) and not what he intended for us, it's just taken us ten thousand years to really begin to figure this out. I notice the flag in your icon has a red half contrasting the black, which is sending yellow (or gold, you might say) lights off in my head.

In your idea of Christian anarchy, are you an advocate for communal property, and communities based of the joint ownership of the means of production? If not, change that red to gold and alleviate my fears. =P

Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: KBCraig on September 18, 2007, 06:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: alaska on September 18, 2007, 06:25 PM NHFT
This thread should be in the "Endless debate and whining" section.

Maybe Kat will create the "Endless bitching and moaning" section just for you.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 18, 2007, 06:53 PM NHFT
I use the ignore button. :)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: grasshopper on September 18, 2007, 08:51 PM NHFT
   My head hurts, I've got food on my shirt, I like buiskuts n gravy, I know God created us, I have itchy feet.....
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 18, 2007, 09:49 PM NHFT
Quote from: TylerM on September 18, 2007, 06:41 PM NHFT
I'm a Christian, and an Anarchist, but not a "Christian anarchist" by the definition I think you mean. I do believe that the state was, if anything else, a punishment from God (granted upon the Israelites) and not what he intended for us, it's just taken us ten thousand years to really begin to figure this out. I notice the flag in your icon has a red half contrasting the black, which is sending yellow (or gold, you might say) lights off in my head.

In your idea of Christian anarchy, are you an advocate for communal property, and communities based of the joint ownership of the means of production? If not, change that red to gold and alleviate my fears. =P


I'm not sure what definition you are referring to.  My personal definition is slightly different than the definition I found online through a search (check my sig for a link to my blog and that definition).  I differ in that I do not accept the total pacifist ideology.  I recognize the right of self-defense to protect one from an aggressor.   I do not believe in communal property and the flag is simply the black/red "anarchist" flag with the cross imposed on it.  For one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: EthanAllen on September 18, 2007, 09:59 PM NHFT
QuoteFor one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...

Communal property ownership based on consensus is legitimate authority!
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ThePug on September 19, 2007, 12:40 AM NHFT
What do you have to say to "pragmatic" libertarians, who hold the opinion just based on a belief that a free society would work better for everyone? I'm not saying I'm one of those, but there are plenty of them out there. People who don't really give a hoot about the philosophical justifications, nor where exactly the definition of a "right" or "liberty" comes from.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: SnowDog on September 19, 2007, 02:24 AM NHFT
And I'm the Atheist, Minarchist, Objectivist from Houston, TX...

It seems to me that if you can get enough people to agree to establish some sort of organized anarchy, (or kritarchy, as is defined in the wikipedia), then you won't have to worry about your minarchy becoming overbearing. Also, if you successfully work out all the domestic problems with anarchy, you still have to establish some sort of organized military to protect society from all the powerful, antagonistic, states from around the world.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 07:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 18, 2007, 09:59 PM NHFT
QuoteFor one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...

Communal property ownership based on consensus is legitimate authority!

And exactly how would one obtain "consensus" from a community of anarchists anyway??  And if one did manage to do so, then there would not be any problem with it as I would have "consented"...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 19, 2007, 07:43 AM NHFT
so .... I guess you are here to debate with people .... do you think that is the best way to change people's minds.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 08:21 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 19, 2007, 07:43 AM NHFT
so .... I guess you are here to debate with people .... do you think that is the best way to change people's minds.

Is this not a forum for debate?  Certainly my mind has been changed through debate so it's logical for me to assume that other's would as well (perhaps I'm unique in this regard...)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Kat Kanning on September 19, 2007, 08:33 AM NHFT
It's more a forum for activism, but if you want to debate, you'll be tolerated.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Lasse on September 19, 2007, 08:35 AM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 18, 2007, 09:49 PM NHFT
Quote from: TylerM on September 18, 2007, 06:41 PM NHFT
I'm a Christian, and an Anarchist, but not a "Christian anarchist" by the definition I think you mean. I do believe that the state was, if anything else, a punishment from God (granted upon the Israelites) and not what he intended for us, it's just taken us ten thousand years to really begin to figure this out. I notice the flag in your icon has a red half contrasting the black, which is sending yellow (or gold, you might say) lights off in my head.

In your idea of Christian anarchy, are you an advocate for communal property, and communities based of the joint ownership of the means of production? If not, change that red to gold and alleviate my fears. =P


I'm not sure what definition you are referring to.  My personal definition is slightly different than the definition I found online through a search (check my sig for a link to my blog and that definition).  I differ in that I do not accept the total pacifist ideology.  I recognize the right of self-defense to protect one from an aggressor.   I do not believe in communal property and the flag is simply the black/red "anarchist" flag with the cross imposed on it.  For one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...
They're referring to your 'anarchist flag', it's not a generic anarchist flag, that's the all-black one. The gold/black variant is the an-cap/property rights anarchist type, while your red/black is the communist-anarchist version. If you don't agree with EthanAllen and his crowd, who say that property rights are an aggression, you should change that flag to a gold/black flag with a cross on it. ;)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Ogre on September 19, 2007, 08:38 AM NHFT
Damn, there's rules for flags, too?  What is this, gang colors?   :icon_pirat:  Guess I'll just stick with my Gadsden Flag.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 08:50 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 18, 2007, 05:39 PM NHFT
I agree.
How did you come to these conclusions? I was completely blown away by Tolstoy's book and it has changed my views on many things.

So how should we then live? :)

I have never read Tolstoy's book.  My greatest influence was from "An Essay On The Trial By Jury" by Lysander Spooner.  I was a strong "constitutionalist" but something just didn't seem right.  I had been in and out of "Christianity" and saw several problems there too but they all stemmed from what men did with their "religion" and certainly could not be blamed on God.  I came to the realization that I was an "anarchist" towards men yet still believed that Christ was our salvation.  I picked "Christian Anarchist" out of the blue and when I did a search on metacrawler I found that others had already used that term. 
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 09:01 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lasse on September 19, 2007, 08:35 AM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 18, 2007, 09:49 PM NHFT
Quote from: TylerM on September 18, 2007, 06:41 PM NHFT
I'm a Christian, and an Anarchist, but not a "Christian anarchist" by the definition I think you mean. I do believe that the state was, if anything else, a punishment from God (granted upon the Israelites) and not what he intended for us, it's just taken us ten thousand years to really begin to figure this out. I notice the flag in your icon has a red half contrasting the black, which is sending yellow (or gold, you might say) lights off in my head.

In your idea of Christian anarchy, are you an advocate for communal property, and communities based of the joint ownership of the means of production? If not, change that red to gold and alleviate my fears. =P


I'm not sure what definition you are referring to.  My personal definition is slightly different than the definition I found online through a search (check my sig for a link to my blog and that definition).  I differ in that I do not accept the total pacifist ideology.  I recognize the right of self-defense to protect one from an aggressor.   I do not believe in communal property and the flag is simply the black/red "anarchist" flag with the cross imposed on it.  For one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...
They're referring to your 'anarchist flag', it's not a generic anarchist flag, that's the all-black one. The gold/black variant is the an-cap/property rights anarchist type, while your red/black is the communist-anarchist version. If you don't agree with EthanAllen and his crowd, who say that property rights are an aggression, you should change that flag to a gold/black flag with a cross on it. ;)

I looked at wikipedia and some other sources and could not find any reference to a gold/black flag.  I may simply revise it to a black flag with a white cross...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: dalebert on September 19, 2007, 01:12 PM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 18, 2007, 09:59 PM NHFT
QuoteFor one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...
Communal property ownership based on consensus is legitimate authority!

Doh! Christian Anarchist! Now look what you did! You said the bad words that summon the bad person. It's like saying "Voldemoort"! He has little demons monitoring the board that call to him when you say such things!

You're new so I forgive you.  ;)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: toowm on September 19, 2007, 01:15 PM NHFT
I thought "He who must not be named" was Seth.

D'Oh

My bad
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Kat Kanning on September 19, 2007, 02:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: toowm on September 19, 2007, 01:15 PM NHFT
I thought "He who must not be named" was Seth.

D'Oh

My bad

you're right.  Now they've both been summoned.   :o
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: error on September 19, 2007, 08:20 PM NHFT
Maybe this thread really does belong in Endless Debate and Whining.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 08:28 PM NHFT
Error why do I see some of your old posts as "guest" (which means the account is deleted or closed) but now see you posting under the same name with many posts in your history?  Is it possible to delete an account and then open another with the same name??
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: EthanAllen on September 19, 2007, 09:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 07:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 18, 2007, 09:59 PM NHFT
QuoteFor one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...

Communal property ownership based on consensus is legitimate authority!

And exactly how would one obtain "consensus" from a community of anarchists anyway??  And if one did manage to do so, then there would not be any problem with it as I would have "consented"...

There is the rub - huh?

In the civic republican tradition, which is older than the classical liberal tradition, individual freedom could only be attained by practicing virtuous behavior within small-scale, face-to-face, deliberative bodies of the whole so the greatest chance for total consensus could be attempted.

As the body of the whole got bigger it was purposely subdivided. Humans can only intimately know a couple hundred people at a time.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 20, 2007, 09:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 19, 2007, 09:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 07:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 18, 2007, 09:59 PM NHFT
QuoteFor one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...

Communal property ownership based on consensus is legitimate authority!

And exactly how would one obtain "consensus" from a community of anarchists anyway??  And if one did manage to do so, then there would not be any problem with it as I would have "consented"...

There is the rub - huh?

In the civic republican tradition, which is older than the classical liberal tradition, individual freedom could only be attained by practicing virtuous behavior within small-scale, face-to-face, deliberative bodies of the whole so the greatest chance for total consensus could be attempted.

As the body of the whole got bigger it was purposely subdivided. Humans can only intimately know a couple hundred people at a time.

Which is why I make the argument that the greatest evil in the history of mankind is "government".  Only with those believers in "government" can one be tricked into thinking they have some kind of "authority" to kill and maim on a scale of millions.  The holocaust, killing fields, firebombing of Dresden, and untold atrocities throughout history were only possible because normal people who knew that murder was wrong, were fooled into thinking that some mysterious non-entity called "government" gave them "authority" to do murder...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: EthanAllen on September 20, 2007, 09:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 20, 2007, 09:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 19, 2007, 09:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 07:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 18, 2007, 09:59 PM NHFT
QuoteFor one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...

Communal property ownership based on consensus is legitimate authority!

And exactly how would one obtain "consensus" from a community of anarchists anyway??  And if one did manage to do so, then there would not be any problem with it as I would have "consented"...

There is the rub - huh?

In the civic republican tradition, which is older than the classical liberal tradition, individual freedom could only be attained by practicing virtuous behavior within small-scale, face-to-face, deliberative bodies of the whole so the greatest chance for total consensus could be attempted.

As the body of the whole got bigger it was purposely subdivided. Humans can only intimately know a couple hundred people at a time.

Which is why I make the argument that the greatest evil in the history of mankind is "government".  Only with those believers in "government" can one be tricked into thinking they have some kind of "authority" to kill and maim on a scale of millions.  The holocaust, killing fields, firebombing of Dresden, and untold atrocities throughout history were only possible because normal people who knew that murder was wrong, were fooled into thinking that some mysterious non-entity called "government" gave them "authority" to do murder...

You are confusing governance as legitimate authority with the state.

They are not the same.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 20, 2007, 09:58 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 08:28 PM NHFT
Error why do I see some of your old posts as "guest" (which means the account is deleted or closed) but now see you posting under the same name with many posts in your history?  Is it possible to delete an account and then open another with the same name??

It is.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 21, 2007, 07:20 AM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 20, 2007, 09:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 20, 2007, 09:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 19, 2007, 09:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 19, 2007, 07:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 18, 2007, 09:59 PM NHFT
QuoteFor one to believe in communal property, one would have to accept some "authority" that exists in order to enforce that communal ownership...

Communal property ownership based on consensus is legitimate authority!

And exactly how would one obtain "consensus" from a community of anarchists anyway??  And if one did manage to do so, then there would not be any problem with it as I would have "consented"...

There is the rub - huh?

In the civic republican tradition, which is older than the classical liberal tradition, individual freedom could only be attained by practicing virtuous behavior within small-scale, face-to-face, deliberative bodies of the whole so the greatest chance for total consensus could be attempted.

As the body of the whole got bigger it was purposely subdivided. Humans can only intimately know a couple hundred people at a time.

Which is why I make the argument that the greatest evil in the history of mankind is "government".  Only with those believers in "government" can one be tricked into thinking they have some kind of "authority" to kill and maim on a scale of millions.  The holocaust, killing fields, firebombing of Dresden, and untold atrocities throughout history were only possible because normal people who knew that murder was wrong, were fooled into thinking that some mysterious non-entity called "government" gave them "authority" to do murder...

You are confusing governance as legitimate authority with the state.

They are not the same.

Both are fictions and do not exist...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: EthanAllen on September 21, 2007, 12:12 PM NHFT
QuoteBoth are fictions and do not exist...

See just how fictitious they are by not paying your property taxes in NH.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: sandm000 on September 21, 2007, 12:33 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on September 18, 2007, 01:34 PM NHFT
Bah. I'm for Cthuluian Anarchy!


(http://www.richgentlemenhide.com/images/misc/cthulhu2008.gif)

If he's such an anarchist, why is he running for president?

(http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/images/cthulhu_sticker2.jpg)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 21, 2007, 12:54 PM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 21, 2007, 12:12 PM NHFT
QuoteBoth are fictions and do not exist...

See just how fictitious they are by not paying your property taxes in NH.

You are making the very common mistake of confusing REAL MEN with GUNS for a fiction called USA (or NH or whatever).  The men with guns certainly do believe there is an Easter Bunny named "XYZ" who grants them authority to kill for them, but their belief is unfounded.  "Beneath this mask there is more than flesh.  Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy.  And ideas are bulletproof."  The idea that the USA exists, when applied with enough zeal, will allow men to do things that are against their own personal moral code...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 21, 2007, 04:17 PM NHFT
Indeed, belief in God and belief in "government" are very similar.  Both are religions.  This clarifies the old adage of not speaking of politics and religion - they are in actually both "religions".  The "existence of a Creator" is quite independent of any "religion".  Religion is a attempt by men to understand the Creator.  We can debate the existence of a "Creator" all we want, but His existence is not dependent on whether we believe in Him or not...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Braddogg on September 21, 2007, 04:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 21, 2007, 04:17 PM NHFT
Indeed, belief in God and belief in "government" are very similar.  Both are religions.  This clarifies the old adage of not speaking of politics and religion - they are in actually both "religions".  The "existence of a Creator" is quite independent of any "religion".  Religion is a attempt by men to understand the Creator.  We can debate the existence of a "Creator" all we want, but His existence is not dependent on whether we believe in Him or not...

Aren't you trying to understand "the Creator" . . . ?
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 21, 2007, 09:03 PM NHFT
Quote from: RattyDog on September 21, 2007, 06:03 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 21, 2007, 04:17 PM NHFT
Indeed, belief in God and belief in "government" are very similar.  Both are religions.  This clarifies the old adage of not speaking of politics and religion - they are in actually both "religions".  The "existence of a Creator" is quite independent of any "religion".  Religion is a attempt by men to understand the Creator.  We can debate the existence of a "Creator" all we want, but His existence is not dependent on whether we believe in Him or not...

Dude, what are you smoking, man?

I didn't say anything about believing in god... the point of my reply to you, is that whether or not god is exists, a lot of "fucking up" and killing has gone down "in his name". His is existance is a moot point, it won't undo the crusades, it won't bring back the millions of people who have died in his name, it won't do anything to restore the respect that was lost for females and femenine culture as a result of the stupid men who have ruled the church for so long and it won't "unbrainwash" the millions of people throughout the world who have fallen victim to an evil church, ruled by very rich evil men, with very evil schemes...it won't change anything.  It's like you discussing the validitiy of the gov't in the same thread as discussing the most effective method of overcoming our situation as citizens with fewer rights every day....whether or not the gov't is a valid entity and exists, is beside the point, what are we going to do to fix the problem? Debating about whether the central gov't is a valid entity, on this board, is stupid, we all know that they are thieves and thugs...so, what are you here to talk about? Or are you just here to talk? If so, fine, but be clear. If you are trying to *do* something, make that clear to....so, what are you trying to *do*?

What are you trying to *do*??

You did state that the "idea" that God exists caused "X".  I pointed out to you that "religion" and the greatest "religion" of all (the "belief" in "government") is the cause of all the death and destruction.  The Crusades was because of a belief in a "government" that had been granted a special "mission from God" to kill people.  Of course God did not grant any such "mission" and if He had, he wouldn't have granted it to a "fiction" government to carry out His will. 

So I guess what I'm trying to *do* is, for one, try to straighten out some crooked thinking...
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: YixilTesiphon on September 21, 2007, 09:27 PM NHFT
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/yixil/0000rb7p.jpg)

I hate this thread.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 21, 2007, 10:34 PM NHFT
Any thread phrased in the form of "$philosophy is the best answer" is just an invitation to pointless—and ultimately vicious—debating and flaming, and should probably just be deleted.

No good can come of this.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 22, 2007, 01:23 AM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 21, 2007, 10:34 PM NHFT
Any thread phrased in the form of "$philosophy is the best answer" is just an invitation to pointless—and ultimately vicious—debating and flaming, and should probably just be deleted.

No good can come of this.
you could make yourself a forum ... and then delete these sorts of threads.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: dalebert on September 22, 2007, 08:02 AM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 21, 2007, 10:34 PM NHFT
Any thread phrased in the form of "$philosophy is the best answer" is just an invitation to pointless—and ultimately vicious—debating and flaming, and should probably just be deleted.

Probably a bit of an over-reaction, but this board does have a section for debate threads. There's nothing wrong with this thread, per se. It's just in the wrong section. Perhaps a moderator could assist.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 22, 2007, 11:15 AM NHFT
Quote from: dalebert on September 22, 2007, 08:02 AM NHFT
Probably a bit of an over-reaction, but this board does have a section for debate threads. There's nothing wrong with this thread, per se. It's just in the wrong section. Perhaps a moderator could assist.

Maybe. I was just thinking, when I saw YixilTesiphon's post, that this was going to begin devolving into a flamewar à la Fark.com's religion threads.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Dreepa on September 22, 2007, 01:11 PM NHFT
Wow seems that people are jumping pretty harsh on CA.

I am granting everyone's wishes and moving this thread.

Welcome CA.... I think that CA is fine.... what steps would you do to create it?
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Lindsey on September 22, 2007, 10:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 22, 2007, 11:15 AM NHFT
Quote from: dalebert on September 22, 2007, 08:02 AM NHFT
Probably a bit of an over-reaction, but this board does have a section for debate threads. There's nothing wrong with this thread, per se. It's just in the wrong section. Perhaps a moderator could assist.

Maybe. I was just thinking, when I saw YixilTesiphon's post, that this was going to begin devolving into a flamewar à la Fark.com's religion threads.

Funny how you should mention that.  Yixil got that picture from me, after I saw it in a TotalFark Discussion thread.   ;D
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 23, 2007, 07:33 AM NHFT
Quote from: Dreepa on September 22, 2007, 01:11 PM NHFT
Wow seems that people are jumping pretty harsh on CA.

I am granting everyone's wishes and moving this thread.
I didn't wish it. :)
It is funny how crazy people get in these threads.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 23, 2007, 08:45 AM NHFT
Goodbye.  I thought that at least at NHFree I might find some true "freedom" minded people (or at least moderators) who could provide a place for discussion on this topic (but I guess so called "freedom" minded people do not "tolerate" any discussion against their grain).  I have been to China about 9 times in the last 14 years and quite frankly feel that there's more "tolerance" there than here in the "land of the free" (hah!!)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Kat Kanning on September 23, 2007, 09:11 AM NHFT
Dang, we lost another debatatarian.  :( 
What will we do now??
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Dreepa on September 23, 2007, 10:12 AM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on September 23, 2007, 09:11 AM NHFT
Dang, we lost another debatatarian.  :( 
What will we do now??
Thick skin eh?
Didn't take him long.

I am sure he can debate over in the FSP forum. ;)
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Rosie the Riveter on September 23, 2007, 10:19 AM NHFT
debatatarian! 

:biglaugh:
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Braddogg on September 23, 2007, 11:21 AM NHFT
He's not even a NH-based debatatarian!
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: dalebert on September 23, 2007, 11:45 AM NHFT
OK, some people didn't like him preaching his religion. Surprise, surprise. He should be used to that and it shouldn't necessarily stop him trying. Other than that, his thread was just moved into the appropriate place on the forum. Over-reaction on both sides, it seems to me.
*shrug*
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Lindsey on September 23, 2007, 02:20 PM NHFT
Quote from: ChristianAnarchist on September 23, 2007, 08:45 AM NHFT
Goodbye.  I thought that at least at NHFree I might find some true "freedom" minded people (or at least moderators) who could provide a place for discussion on this topic (but I guess so called "freedom" minded people do not "tolerate" any discussion against their grain).  I have been to China about 9 times in the last 14 years and quite frankly feel that there's more "tolerance" there than here in the "land of the free" (hah!!)

Oh wah.  Cry me a river, Justin Timberlake style.  There's not a lack of tolerance here.  There's a lack of tact on your part.  There are too many philosophical suggestions, theories, ideas, whatevers in this world to suggest that one is the only answer, the best answer, or the one thing that will save us all.  That's a good majority of the reason that CA's stuff was not very well-received over at FTL, and here as well.  Implying that our beliefs are wrong at the first impression is not the way to get on most people's good side.   :P
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Barterer on September 23, 2007, 02:57 PM NHFT
Lindsey is right.  The reason people treated him harshly (besides the fact that he wanted to start another religious debate) is because of his behavior on the FTL boards.  He already did the exact same thread over there, and it went for 100+ pages..  during which, several members took the bait and led him patiently by the hand, in logical little baby steps, all the way from point A to point B..  showing exactly how and where we was wrong. 

Being an obtuse, undebatable  debatarian, CA would always slink away with one of his soft, SNL-church-lady type insults. After he pissed off several people that way, he switched to bragging about how long the thread went, and whining about insults from those who ran out of patience with him. 

When he showed up here, I kind of wanted to say something, but bit my fingers instead, thinking he might have changed after all that.  Instead he stamped his foot and went off in a hissy again.  Boo Hoo.

Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: shyfrog on September 23, 2007, 04:27 PM NHFT
oh wow...look at all the fun I missed o.O
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 23, 2007, 05:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: Barterer on September 23, 2007, 02:57 PM NHFT
Lindsey is right.  The reason people treated him harshly (besides the fact that he wanted to start another religious debate) is because of his behavior on the FTL boards.  He already did the exact same thread over there, and it went for 100+ pages..  during which, several members took the bait and led him patiently by the hand, in logical little baby steps, all the way from point A to point B..  showing exactly how and where we was wrong. 

Being an obtuse, undebatable  debatarian, CA would always slink away with one of his soft, SNL-church-lady type insults. After he pissed off several people that way, he switched to bragging about how long the thread went, and whining about insults from those who ran out of patience with him. 

When he showed up here, I kind of wanted to say something, but bit my fingers instead, thinking he might have changed after all that.  Instead he stamped his foot and went off in a hissy again.  Boo Hoo.

I didn't even know about his posting on the FTL boards; I've an account there but don't post, nor read it much.

I have absolutely nothing against him being a Christian Anarchist, honestly—and I'm an atheist—nor even him thinking it's the "best answer" and that he's right and everyone else is wrong. Whatever works, as long as people observe the NAP/ZAP principle. I'm simply becoming very intolerant of the masterdebater types that suck up everyone's time and energy, especially after Malum Prohibitum's complete meltdown and the continuing Bill G. saga.

I've seen forums become inundated with trolls to the point where they're unusable, and all the good people leave (anyone here ever used to go to Kuro5hin.org?), and it's not a pretty sight.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Dreepa on September 23, 2007, 06:27 PM NHFT
What J said.
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Lindsey on September 23, 2007, 07:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: Barterer on September 23, 2007, 02:57 PM NHFT
Lindsey is right.  The reason people treated him harshly (besides the fact that he wanted to start another religious debate) is because of his behavior on the FTL boards.  He already did the exact same thread over there, and it went for 100+ pages..  during which, several members took the bait and led him patiently by the hand, in logical little baby steps, all the way from point A to point B..  showing exactly how and where we was wrong. 

Being an obtuse, undebatable  debatarian, CA would always slink away with one of his soft, SNL-church-lady type insults. After he pissed off several people that way, he switched to bragging about how long the thread went, and whining about insults from those who ran out of patience with him. 

When he showed up here, I kind of wanted to say something, but bit my fingers instead, thinking he might have changed after all that.  Instead he stamped his foot and went off in a hissy again.  Boo Hoo.



He actually got to a point where he created a thread specifically to respond to all of the other threads, so he wouldn't have to click "reply" so many times.  He did snap out of it, and post his few responses in the appropriate forum, I believe.  But all that was left recently was his epic (failure) of a thread, and a couple of others devoted to automobile-related interests. 

I almost locked this thread over at FTL when it became a huge clusterfuck.  All in all, CA was a pretty good caller to FTL, and occasionally had something of interest to say.  But as I mentioned before, when the only thing you have to say is "Listen to me because my ideas are right and yours aren't", I'm not going to want to hear what you have to say.  He obviously had not mastered the skill of tactful debate. 

We as free thinkers are very tolerant of new and different ideas.  I support CA's right to believe in what ever he chooses, but I will vehemently disagree if I please as well. 

I'm actually surprised that he deleted his account here.  He still lurks over at FTL, which is cool.  They always seem to come back.   :bdance2:

Also...I don't know why I picked the dancing banana smiley.  I just thought it was badass. 
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: dalebert on September 24, 2007, 07:23 AM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 23, 2007, 05:39 PM NHFT
I've seen forums become inundated with trolls to the point where they're unusable, and all the good people leave (anyone here ever used to go to Kuro5hin.org?), and it's not a pretty sight.

e.g. FTL
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Rochelle on September 24, 2007, 07:36 AM NHFT
Christian anarchy is the best answer....















.......for christian anarchists.

How the hell do you do the dancing banana and other moving smilies I keep finding? I'm getting jealous!
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: dalebert on September 24, 2007, 07:47 AM NHFT
Quote from: Rochelle on September 24, 2007, 07:36 AM NHFT
How the hell do you do the dancing banana and other moving smilies I keep finding? I'm getting jealous!

See the little link next to the smiley's that says "more"?
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: Rochelle on September 24, 2007, 10:39 AM NHFT
whoa!
Wow!

They meant more didn't they?

Thanks, Dale, I feel empowered!  :thanks:
Title: Re: Christian Anarchy is the best answer...
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 24, 2007, 10:43 AM NHFT
That "Here, I'll help you to shut the fuck up" animation Dale has ought to be scaled and to be added to that smiley list, for use on future trolls.