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New Hampshire Underground => Voluntary Schooling => Quotes => Topic started by: E-ville on September 23, 2007, 04:53 PM NHFT

Title: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: E-ville on September 23, 2007, 04:53 PM NHFT
This list has some of the best quotes I've seen.. and many many quotes..
http://www.vagabox.com/vagabox01.html
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: Insurgent on September 23, 2007, 05:42 PM NHFT
What a great find!  :D
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: Pat K on September 23, 2007, 06:04 PM NHFT
If child molestation is actually your concern, how come we don't see Bradley tanks knocking down Catholic churches?
~ Bill Hicks, 1993, referencing the Waco siege


I miss Bill Hicks.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: Quantrill on September 24, 2007, 09:33 AM NHFT
Excellent link!
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: alphaniner on September 24, 2007, 11:42 AM NHFT
Bleah.  Little more than a bunch of atheist clap-trap.  At least be honest about the contents of your linkys.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: Lasse on September 24, 2007, 01:00 PM NHFT
Bleah.  Little more than a bunch of atheist clap-trap.  At least be honest about the contents of your linkys.
Organised religion, the church, and the belief that the Invisible Man in the Sky owns you, your soul and your life isn't 'establishment'? I'd say the description is pretty honest.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: CNHT on September 24, 2007, 08:00 PM NHFT
Bleah.  Little more than a bunch of atheist clap-trap.  At least be honest about the contents of your linkys.

...with a touch of one-worldism thrown in. You must attack everyone's 'god' in order to make the 'state' everyone's only god.
It always amazes me that those who would be such vigorous apologists for muslims would on the other hand find the need to attack christians with such vigor.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: alphaniner on September 24, 2007, 10:52 PM NHFT
Organised religion, the church, and the belief that the Invisible Man in the Sky owns you, your soul and your life isn't 'establishment'? I'd say the description is pretty honest.

It is the devoted single-mindedness to the notion that faith and 'god-belief' are the root of our problems that I find disturbing.  The twin altars of science and reason have become an 'establishment' in their own right, claiming to have - or rather to be - the solution to these problems.  Paraphrasing the Secular Humanist quote of the year from several years back: 'faith is a virus like smallpox and should be dealt with as such.'  As I said, bleah (being the onomatopoeia associated with :P in case there was any confusion).
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: CNHT on September 24, 2007, 11:01 PM NHFT
Secular humanism? Well if you want there to be less government you should be encouraging religious entities since charity is their role, or should be. (Not that the UUs follow this)

Secular humanism is just another tool of the leftists.

You don't have be religious to see that it is destructively pro-statist.

Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: alphaniner on September 24, 2007, 11:12 PM NHFT
Not that the UUs follow this

What's a UU?  Unitarian-Universalist?  Dunno much about them.

Quote
Secular humanism is just another tool of the leftists.

You don't have be religious to see that it is destructively pro-statist.

Can't really vouch for this, don't know that much about them either.  However I consider them to be just generally destructive, and that is enough for me.


Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: CNHT on September 24, 2007, 11:22 PM NHFT
Not that the UUs follow this

What's a UU?  Unitarian-Universalist?  Dunno much about them.


Well read this website and you will see they are really just the 'religious left' political arm of the United Nations.
http://www.uunashua.org/socres/

Apparently the NH Faithful Democracy site has been lapsed...but that used to be a mini-UN, demanding more taxes to do the work their 'church' can't afford.
It should be the other way around!

Quote
Secular humanism is just another tool of the leftists.

You don't have be religious to see that it is destructively pro-statist.

Can't really vouch for this, don't know that much about them either.  However I consider them to be just generally destructive, and that is enough for me.


In the US we are supposed to have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it. So long as the government doesn't make any formal religion.
However, the state seems to want to be your religion more and more. We don't hear about it but religion is *usually* used for giving people hope, for the good. We only hear about the bad, such as in the case with Muslims.

Just look at Dr Paul. Two of his brothers are ministers, and he is VERY religious, but he never imposes that on anyone personally or in politics. But I'm sure his being a man of faith is what makes him such a man of conscious as well.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: alphaniner on September 25, 2007, 12:08 AM NHFT
In the US we are supposed to have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it. So long as the government doesn't make any formal religion. However, the state seems to want to be your religion more and more. We don't hear about it but religion is *usually* used for giving people hope, for the good. We only hear about the bad, such as in the case with Muslims

Just look at Dr Paul. Two of his brothers are ministers, and he is VERY religious, but he never imposes that on anyone personally or in politics. But I'm sure his being a man of faith is what makes him such a man of conscious** as well.

:clap:

**I think you mean conscience. ;)
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: Braddogg on September 25, 2007, 12:22 AM NHFT
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ... we need believing people."
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: E-ville on September 25, 2007, 12:48 AM NHFT
There is a very fine line between religion and government, there similarities are numerous.. But nont the less i could care less if you belive in a god or don't, as long as you a moral being that doesn't tread on other peoples  freedom and there freedome to believe in what they want or what they don't want.

Freedom is a double edged sword , if you want freedom you must allow others to have there freedom and accept this as fact.. the moment you try to lessen someones freedom, you are them allowing your freedoms to be infringed.  Every thing has a yin and a yang, when you look at these you must look at the whole, not the part.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: dalebert on September 25, 2007, 10:37 AM NHFT
It is the devoted single-mindedness to the notion that faith and 'god-belief' are the root of our problems that I find disturbing.  The twin altars of science and reason have become an 'establishment' in their own right, claiming to have - or rather to be - the solution to these problems.

The root of the problem is tyranny, and both religion and government are guilty of it. Religion and violence are actually very similar in the respect that they both put a stop to reason. When I get tired of debating you and punch you in the face, I have declared that I am right and you are wrong- end of discussion. The same goes when someone gets their morality out of a book. If you're not using your reasoning abilities to their fullest extent, then you are more inclined to make poor decisions, potentially very harmful decisions, and that is the inherent evil. Any belief based on faith is a rejection of reason.

Science and reason are absolutely worthy of being pursued as solutions to problems. No one has a monopoly on them. There is certainly poor science and poor reason, and those are often propped up by establishments, but that doesn't mean we should stop exploring, experimenting, putting our heads together, and trying to learn more about the world around us and our social interactions in order to solve problems. Good science and good reason acknowledge that they are not perfect and there is always more to learn.

I respect a person's RIGHT to believe in anything and to promote that belief without force. That does not mean I respect the belief itself. I consider certain beliefs to be irrational and therefore evil to some extent depending on how much it distorts one's ability to reason. I am much less inclined to argue with a religious person when they respect my rights because they seem a lot more reasonable than your typical evangelical. However, I do reserve the right to attempt to persuade. To give an example, I know of an anarchist and Christian who believes in living for others and that if he does so, God is going to look out for him. So he doesn't put much effort into preparing for a rainy day, or even many days.  :-\ But magical things aren't going to happen to solve his problems. This person's irrational beliefs are very possibly going to cause harm to him and those who care about him. I've been reluctant to debate his religious beliefs because he doesn't push them on me, but now I find myself reconsidering.

And just because secular humanism is bad doesn't mean religion is good. The government attacks religion because it's a challenge to its power, but that's because organized religion is a power in it's own right. The government sides with the weaker religions right now because it undermines the more powerful ones, just as it once sided with Saddam and Bin Laden. It was expediant at the time. Organized religion, like government, has caused tremendous harm throughout history. You can't say religion must be right because it challenges the power of government. That's like saying America was right to invade Iraq because Saddam was a tyrant. No, two power-abusers were just struggling for authority.

People need to accept that others don't share their beliefs and even think those beliefs are irrational and are sometimes going to take advantage of their freedom of speech to say so. We have good reason for choosing to take advantage of that right sometimes. Make your case against such statements instead of emotional reactions and ad hominem attacks.

To be fair, I've also seen over-reactions from the other side as well when their beliefs are challenged, like in the Christian Anarchy thread. Yes, there are also obnoxiously evangelical atheists.  :o

EDIT: Removed the "ad hominem attacks". On 2nd thought, that was over-reaching. Being generally dismissive is more like it.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 25, 2007, 10:54 AM NHFT
Organised religion, the church, and the belief that the Invisible Man in the Sky owns you, your soul and your life isn't 'establishment'? I'd say the description is pretty honest.

It is the devoted single-mindedness to the notion that faith and 'god-belief' are the root of our problems that I find disturbing. 

If you look at history, you’ll see that the rise of organized faith and the State go hand-in-hand. The earliest states were predicated upon their god-beliefs; the high priest and the king were one and the same, and the beliefs was used to justify his power.

The twin altars of science and reason have become an 'establishment' in their own right, claiming to have - or rather to be - the solution to these problems.

This is true, but doesn’t refute the above; in fact, it augments it. Blind faith in the authority of science and the proclamations of experts (i.e., the high priests of science) is just as bad as blind faith in the authority of a nonexistent diety. See, it’s that blind, trusting faith in authority that is the root of many of our problems.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 25, 2007, 11:09 AM NHFT
Secular humanism? Well if you want there to be less government you should be encouraging religious entities since charity is their role, or should be. (Not that the UUs follow this)

Secular humanism is just another tool of the leftists.

You don't have be religious to see that it is destructively pro-statist.

I tend to think of all organized religions as being the tools of someone seeking power. Either they were outright invented by the power-hungry, or they were quickly taken over by such people and turned to their purposes.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: alphaniner on September 25, 2007, 11:30 AM NHFT
Organised religion, the church, and the belief that the Invisible Man in the Sky owns you, your soul and your life isn't 'establishment'? I'd say the description is pretty honest.

It is the devoted single-mindedness to the notion that faith and 'god-belief' are the root of our problems that I find disturbing. 

If you look at history, you’ll see that the rise of organized faith and the State go hand-in-hand. The earliest states were predicated upon their god-beliefs; the high priest and the king were one and the same, and the beliefs was used to justify his power.

The twin altars of science and reason have become an 'establishment' in their own right, claiming to have - or rather to be - the solution to these problems.

This is true, but doesn’t refute the above; in fact, it augments it. Blind faith in the authority of science and the proclamations of experts (i.e., the high priests of science) is just as bad as blind faith in the authority of a nonexistent diety. See, it’s that blind, trusting faith in authority that is the root of many of our problems.

I pretty much agree on all accounts.  The problem is, it is all too common for the life and liberty affirming qualities of faith, belief, etc. to be lost in the hubbub.  I have no love for organized religion, but I nevertheless have a great deal of respect for many of its adherents who I have known in my life.  Some of them have been clergy, and I would beat the crap out of anyone who suggested they should be 'strangled with the entrails of [insert contemporary authority figure here].'
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 25, 2007, 12:51 PM NHFT
Organised religion, the church, and the belief that the Invisible Man in the Sky owns you, your soul and your life isn't 'establishment'? I'd say the description is pretty honest.

It is the devoted single-mindedness to the notion that faith and 'god-belief' are the root of our problems that I find disturbing. 

If you look at history, you’ll see that the rise of organized faith and the State go hand-in-hand. The earliest states were predicated upon their god-beliefs; the high priest and the king were one and the same, and the beliefs was used to justify his power.

The twin altars of science and reason have become an 'establishment' in their own right, claiming to have - or rather to be - the solution to these problems.

This is true, but doesn’t refute the above; in fact, it augments it. Blind faith in the authority of science and the proclamations of experts (i.e., the high priests of science) is just as bad as blind faith in the authority of a nonexistent diety. See, it’s that blind, trusting faith in authority that is the root of many of our problems.

I pretty much agree on all accounts.  The problem is, it is all too common for the life and liberty affirming qualities of faith, belief, etc. to be lost in the hubbub.

I think that’s because, in practice, such aspects of any given religion are so infrequently displayed, and in general, the people who make the most noise about their religion are the least likely to display such values. The Falwells and Bin Ladens of the world steal the limelight from the the adherents of whom you speak.

Additionally, many of the positive values held by religions are only ostensibly positive—under the surface, they’re often nothing more than justifications for controlling people or amassing power to the leaders of the religion. Exaltation of poverty and simple living is a clever way of justifying the establishment’s hold on all the wealth and its desire to keep its subjects poor. Sexual mores serve to control the population. Self-denial—not just sexual restrictions here, but also things on diet, creature comforts, and so on—leads to psychological frustration, which leads to zealousness and aggressiveness, which gives the establishment hordes of eager young warriors willing to fight and die for them. Pro-life beliefs are used to control women. A person having learned to be humble and submissive is much less likely to rise up against a tyrant than someone who is prideful and arrogant. And so on.

This isn’t to say that anyone who promotes such values is really just engaged in a cynical attempt to control people. Some people genuinely believe in these values. (Ron Paul, for example, seems to me to be someone who genuinely—and consistently, which is rare!—believes in the Christian life ethic.) But again, the few good people are outweighed and drowned out by the bad.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: alphaniner on September 25, 2007, 02:00 PM NHFT
Additionally, many of the positive values held by religions are only ostensibly positive—under the surface, they’re often nothing more than justifications for controlling people or amassing power to the leaders of the religion. Exaltation of poverty and simple living is a clever way of justifying the establishment’s hold on all the wealth and its desire to keep its subjects poor. Sexual mores serve to control the population. Self-denial—not just sexual restrictions here, but also things on diet, creature comforts, and so on—leads to psychological frustration, which leads to zealousness and aggressiveness, which gives the establishment hordes of eager young warriors willing to fight and die for them. Pro-life beliefs are used to control women. A person having learned to be humble and submissive is much less likely to rise up against a tyrant than someone who is prideful and arrogant. And so on.

While I agree that these things are very often - perhaps even more often than not - used as a means of control, I disagree that they are as you say "only ostensibly positive."  Let me put that another way.  Exaltation of poverty and utter self-denial are certainly deleterious beliefs.  In my experience, however, most people just don't ascribe to these extremes.  More often than not, I think an 'appeal to self-control' is misconstrued as promotion of self-denial; and exaltation of poverty is misconstrued from rebuking the exaltation of wealth.  Furthermore, sexual mores are in my opinion far more positive - both to the individual and to society at large - than sexual abandon.  And an appreciation for the 'simple things' in life is - again in my opinion - an essential trait for a well-adjusted human being.  I'm not even gonna touch the pro-life bit, because nothing good could come from discussing it.

This isn’t to say that anyone who promotes such values is really just engaged in a cynical attempt to control people. Some people genuinely believe in these values. (Ron Paul, for example, seems to me to be someone who genuinely—and consistently, which is rare!—believes in the Christian life ethic.) But again, the few good people are outweighed and drowned out by the bad.

Those in power aside, my experience leads me to the opposite conclusion.  Maybe I'm naive or simple-minded, but I think the 'bad' are far outweighed by the 'good' (or, at least, the... 'morally mediocre').  The latter are certainly often drowned out, however, I think this is more due to a few key errors in judgment than an overall 'badness.'  And even among those in power and seeking power, that very power is usually their first and only concern.  Everything and everyone they touch are tools - means to an end - and should not be considered sullied merely due to their contact.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: CNHT on September 25, 2007, 04:36 PM NHFT
In the US we are supposed to have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it. So long as the government doesn't make any formal religion. However, the state seems to want to be your religion more and more. We don't hear about it but religion is *usually* used for giving people hope, for the good. We only hear about the bad, such as in the case with Muslims

Just look at Dr Paul. Two of his brothers are ministers, and he is VERY religious, but he never imposes that on anyone personally or in politics. But I'm sure his being a man of faith is what makes him such a man of conscious** as well.

:clap:

**I think you mean conscience. ;)

Yes, slip of the fingers...I'm so freakin' busy... <sigh>
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on September 25, 2007, 06:10 PM NHFT
Additionally, many of the positive values held by religions are only ostensibly positive—under the surface, they’re often nothing more than justifications for controlling people or amassing power to the leaders of the religion. Exaltation of poverty and simple living is a clever way of justifying the establishment’s hold on all the wealth and its desire to keep its subjects poor. Sexual mores serve to control the population. Self-denial—not just sexual restrictions here, but also things on diet, creature comforts, and so on—leads to psychological frustration, which leads to zealousness and aggressiveness, which gives the establishment hordes of eager young warriors willing to fight and die for them. Pro-life beliefs are used to control women. A person having learned to be humble and submissive is much less likely to rise up against a tyrant than someone who is prideful and arrogant. And so on.

While I agree that these things are very often - perhaps even more often than not - used as a means of control, I disagree that they are as you say "only ostensibly positive."  Let me put that another way.  Exaltation of poverty and utter self-denial are certainly deleterious beliefs.  In my experience, however, most people just don't ascribe to these extremes.

That’s certainly true. But if you read the actual religious texts that back Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism—and I’m sure there are others; these are just the ones I know off the top of my head—it’s the extreme that is in fact pushed by the religion. And it’s the extremist forms of these religions that are pushed by the power-seekers, not the moderate versions.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: PattyLee loves dogs on February 23, 2010, 10:41 PM NHFT
I am not religious but appreciated "Chaucers Tales" read many years ago, I do not recall very well. I was impressed with the characters described according to their position in the church hierarchy. The lowest position priest embodied the true ideals. The characters became worse and more corrupt as they ascended in the church authority. The point was not to revile the ideal of the church but instead to revile the authority.

The vestige of appreciation I have for a church has to do with that spirit expressed by the lowliest, the individual farthest away from authority.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on February 24, 2010, 07:50 AM NHFT
...aspiring to work his way up the ranks.
Title: Re: Huge list of great quotes about establisment
Post by: Mike Barskey on February 26, 2010, 11:46 AM NHFT
Here's a list of my favorite quotes (http://mike.barskey.net/Mike_Barskey/Quotes.html): http://mike.barskey.net/Mike_Barskey/Quotes.html (http://mike.barskey.net/Mike_Barskey/Quotes.html)