New Hampshire Underground

Dear Friends,

I wish to offer a serious warning about one of our own.  Part of being anti-government must include taking personal responsibility and policing our own communities. I have avoided using other people's names in this post, out of respect for those with whom I did not consult prior to posting this and who may not agree with my decision to do so.  But many of them are known to you.  I know this post is long, but I encourage you to read through to the end, to have a better understanding of the number of people who have already been hurt and over such a long period of time.  My goal is to prevent Jim from doing further harm in our community.

You are probably personally acquainted with Jim aka JP, and, like myself, have socialized with him at BBQs, conferences and PorcFest.  You may have found him to be pleasant and charming.  Unfortunately, I believe that he is completely untrustworthy.  I'm not just talking about flakiness, either.  I'm talking about repeated acts of irresponsibility, thoughtlessness, lies, and even theft and fraud.

A year ago, when I was running for the Executive Committee of the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire (LPNH), two different people pulled me aside and quietly encouraged me to run *against* Jim for the position of Secretary.  At that point, I knew Jim had a reputation for flakiness.  However, that was all I knew.  I was hesitant to run against someone I considered to be a friend, as well as a fellow Free Stater.  And I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I chose to run for the position of Treasurer instead, as the current Treasurer had been serving for 5 years and had expressed an interest in stepping down.  I won the position of Treasurer, and Jim won the position of Secretary.  Perhaps if those who had warned me had been more explicit, some or all of the following events could have been avoided.  I am now wondering just how many of us have had bad experiences with this young man, and we've all been keeping it quiet, not realizing the extent of it.  Well, sunshine is the best disinfectant, so allow me to shine some light on some of my experiences with Jim over the past two years. While I have also heard rumors of other peoples' negative experiences, I will leave it to them to share, or not, as they wish.

•   Last year I attended almost all of the LPNH's monthly meetings.  Although Jim was serving on the ExComm at the time, and his presence was necessary to form a quorum, I never once saw him at a meeting.  More than once, I observed then-Chair John B. to say that he had just spoken with Jim, who had assured him that he would be at the meeting.  I inwardly observed that John, and his wife (who was also on the ExComm) had therefore made the 2 hours round-trip drive from Grafton to Concord and were unable to conduct any formal party business.  This hindered the ExComm in such ways as being unable to vote to give party funds to candidates running for office.

•   In April 2006, Jim told me that he had been "fired" as an outreach Liaison for the Free State Project.  He didn't say why. This struck me as very odd, seeing as how the FSP was in great need of volunteers, and I was under the impression that Jim was one of the top recruiters of new members for the FSP.  I inquired about this via email to the Board of Directors of the FSP (on which I was serving at the time).  I never received an explanation as to why Jim had been fired; I was simply told that it was within the rights of the Liaison Coordinator to do so.  I was left to assume that the LC was some kind of meanie and that my friend Jim had been wronged.  I now wonder if information was being withheld in a misguided attempt to protect the guilty (although this is just speculation on my part).

•   In Dec 2006, while serving as First 1000 project manager for the FSP, one of my phone bank volunteers told me that he had spoken by phone with an FSP participant in Massachusetts recruited to the FSP by Jim.  This participant had no recollection of having joined the FSP.

•   On Feb. 15, 2007, Jim suggested to the LPNH ExComm via email that we have a gun raffle to raise funds.  We agreed that it sounded like a good idea.  Jim ordered raffle tickets from an MVP member who owns a print shop, and started selling them at the FSP's Liberty Forum conference.  On Feb. 23, in the LPNH hospitality suite at NHLF, he told me, the Chair and a former ExComm member, in the presence of several other people, that he had already sold enough tickets to cover the cost of the guns being raffled off.  Per Jim's original written budget, the cost of the guns was $825. 

•   In April 2007, the person who printed the raffle tickets contacted me and said that the LPNH had never paid her.  Apparently she had given an invoice to Jim, and he never passed it on.  After giving me a replacement invoice, she was paid (late).

•   Also in April 2007, the LPNH held a convention at St. Anselm's in Manchester.  We provided a buffet lunch to attendees.  We never received an invoice for this lunch, which cost approximately $1000.  I asked Jim repeatedly for any info, as he was the one who had made the arrangements with St. Anselm's.  He never provided me with an invoice, contact name or phone number.  Finally I dug up an email address on the internet and contacted St. A's myself. They got back to me promptly and said they had mailed the invoice to Jim's home address.  At my request, they sent a replacement invoice to the LPNH and were paid (late).

•   On May 2, 2007, Jim sent out an email to a number of LPNH members, at the Chair's request, announcing an emergency meeting of the LPNH on May 4.  Despite the fact that I had a houseguest from the West Coast at the time, I made arrangements to be at the meeting location in Manchester at the announced time.  At least three other LPNH members drove in from other towns.  When we arrived, we were told by a member who lives in the building where our meetings take place that the meeting was cancelled.  Jim never showed up.  Apparently the Chair cancelled the meeting just hours before its start time, told Jim, and Jim made no effort to notify anyone else.  The Chair later apologized for this mishap; Jim never offered any explanations or apologies.

•   On June 9, 2007, a meeting was scheduled and publicly announced for the Hillsborough County LP, of which Jim is the Chair.  After my experience with the emergency meeting on May 4, I made a point of calling Jim two hours prior to the start time of the meeting, to confirm that it was taking place.  He assured me that it was taking place, that he would be there, and that nine people had RSVP'ed.  I drove to Manchester in pouring rain to find only one other LPNH member in attendance.  Jim never showed, never called me, and never offered me a word of explanation or apology.

•   In July 2007, having never received any money from Jim for raffle ticket sales, and in an email discussing various other points of LPNH business, I asked him to bring the money and the stubs to the upcoming LPNH meeting.  He never responded.  Three days later, he resigned his position as Secretary via email, with no advance notice.  He stated in his letter of resignation that he would hand over his ticket stubs and cash to another member of the ExComm. 

•   Since Jim's resignation on July 5, he has been asked a minimum of 11 times, by at least five different LPNH members, via a combination of emails and phone calls, to hand over the raffle tickets (both sold and unsold) and the cash he collected.  We made numerous efforts to resolve the matter with him privately.  I internally proposed to the rest of the ExComm the possibility of making long-term repayment arrangements with him for the cash, if for whatever reason he didn't have it in his possession at the present time <cough>, if he would only give us the ticket stubs.  I personally offered to meet him at a time and place convenient for him to retrieve the ticket stubs.  I can't speak for others, but for myself, I continually believed that this was all "youthful irresponsibility" on Jim's part.  He ignored all email communications from both myself and the Chair.  He repeatedly made telephone statements to various individuals of "I will give the stubs and cash to so and so in a day or two", but it never happened. 

•   On September 9, out of a desire to avoid defrauding dozens of people who had bought LPNH raffle tickets from Jim but stood no chance of winning a prize, the LPNH ExComm passed a motion to go public with the fact that Jim had never handed over any of his ticket stubs, and to offer replacement tickets or refunds to the purchasers.  We gave Jim a deadline of two weeks to hand over the ticket stubs, and additional time to hand over the cash. The party Chair informed him of this privately.  Jim did not respond.

•   On 9/25/07, after the two week deadline had passed and as I was preparing to send out the public notices about the raffle, another LPNH member chose to make a last-ditch effort to resolve the matter with Jim privately.  He called Jim at 9:00PM on a weeknight and made arrangements to drive to his home in Amherst to retrieve the ticket stubs and cash.  After he made the drive, Jim failed to hand over any cash, although he did hand over some ticket stubs.  Furthermore, Jim said "Too bad you didn't get here sooner, or I could have gone to the bank."  Once again, Jim had been called at 9:00PM, and had said before this person drove to Amherst that Jim had the cash to give him.

I and the rest of the LPNH ExComm received an email the same night from someone who was told by Jim that he gave the tickets and the cash to the person who drove to Jim's home in Amherst.  Since this directly conflicted with what I had been told by the person who drove to Jim's house, I asked the email writer for verification.  When I questioned this person, they revealed that they, personally, and others that they know, have also had experiences with Jim "withholding owed funds" (direct quote).  If forced to choose between Jim's word and the other LPNH member, they would go with the other person.

The LPNH will honor our obligations to our friends and supporters who bought raffle tickets.  We have purchased a raffle permit, will buy the guns from Riley's as Jim arranged, and will award them to two ticket buyers.  But the only one who raised any funds via this venture was Jim C. Perry.

While I don't intend to press legal charges, I do want to let as many people know about this as possible, so that they can see what kind of man he really is, and keep that in mind when considering whether to do business with him or entrust him with a position of responsibility within their organization.  I received a bulk email from him within the last two months indicating that he has opened some sort of online business; I assume that means he takes payment in advance for goods sold online.  I have also heard that he has formed some sort of organization to support Ron Paul's Presidential campaign.  I don't know whether or not he is soliciting funds in the name of this organization.  It is my hope that no more of my friends and comrades waste their time or lose their money to Jim. 

In Liberty,
Sandy P. aka Friday
LPNH Treasurer

There was an email soliciting donations to buy ad time during the Superbowl and NFC/AFC championships for Ron Paul.  Not sure if it was this guy... but it seemed sketchy.  Unfortunately, I deleted it. :/

I can't even sleep.   >:(  All the wasted time, and the pilfered donations, is bad enough...but to then attempt to lay the blame on someone else....   :puke:

Sad that it had to come to this.

I know it cost you to write this Sandy,
but sometimes people leave you no choice.

Ditto what Pat said. Bravo to you, Sandy. Not for making JP's business public, but for staying quiet about it for so long.

But at least the money went to a good cause (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=10979.msg187975#msg187975).  ;)

We gave JP money for flags he was selling.  He never gave us flags or money back, despite me asking for them.

Thanks for letting us know this, Sandy.

sorry for not warning you guys enough .... JP has not paid rent to 2 people we know and took money for a campaign that he never finished and didn't pay people back ...
I thought everyone knew ... and I had him on ignore on this forum and in person. :(
I guess next time I see him I will ask him for money so I can give it back to you guys.

I think shunning is much better than legal action.

Wow...just...wow.

QuoteI think shunning is much better than legal action.

Yea, sometime's there's nothing quite like a good ol' fashioned shunning.

Other times there's nothing like a good ol' fashioned tarring and feathering...

Friday,
I applaud you for taking the time (which must have been substantial) and energy to post a very well documented account of events as you know them and for not mentioning names when you didn't have permission. While it is unfortunate that this situation is much more than flakiness (as I had often thought as well), it is better for people to know the facts so that they will not get burned in the future.

Thanks,
Dawn

He sounds like an agent provocateur to me.

Ostracize!   >:D

The Talented Mr Ripley

Wow, what an asshole. On the one hand, this guy sounds like a typical irresponsible prick. On the paranoid hand, this sounds like some sort of intentional attempt at disruption of the movement. The raffle fraud and then running for office as a freestater and just dropping out sounds like someone is trying to make us all look bad as publicly as possible.

Quote from: RattyDog on September 27, 2007, 07:51 AM NHFT
Stealing is wrong. How very very sad for him that he could steal from an organization that is really trying to make a difference in the world....how empty he must feel inside to be so callous.

We should all go get the money from him together.

Sounds like a good idea. We should try to get some of our open carriers to help out, perhaps. >:D

Quote from: Kat Kanning on September 27, 2007, 08:16 AM NHFT
I think shunning is much better than legal action.

Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Quote from: FTL_Ian on September 27, 2007, 09:59 AM NHFT
He sounds like an agent provocateur to me.

Ostracize!   >:D

Precisely.

Quote from: Bald Eagle on September 27, 2007, 10:01 AM NHFT
The Talented Mr Ripley

That was a GREAT movie! I have it on DVD.  :icon_pirat: Who wants to watch it sometime at Porc Manor? I've only seen it about half a dozen times or so.

Quote from: Kat Kanning on September 27, 2007, 08:16 AM NHFT
I think shunning is much better than legal action.

I certainly understand the reluctance to use the corrupt justice system. I think what he's pointing out though, is that the very same legal system may go after them if they don't follow certain legal guidelines that they agreed to when incorporating, which may include going after the thief with the legal system. Ugh.
:-\

As the LPNH serves its members and they are the victims, here, they could be polled.

From the LPNH Statement of Principles:

QuoteProperty: The only economic system compatible with the protection of individual human rights is the free market; therefore, the fundamental right of individuals to own property and to enjoy the rewards of their just earnings should not be compromised.

And...

QuoteGovernment's only role is to help individuals defend themselves from force and fraud.

So it would seem that filing a lawsuit for the funds would be within the principles of the LPNH.

From the RSAs:

Quote637:4 Theft by Deception. –
    I. A person commits theft if he obtains or exercises control over property of another by deception and with a purpose to deprive him thereof.
II. For the purposes of this section, deception occurs when a person purposely:
    (e) Misrepresents to or misleads any person, in any manner, so as to make that person believe that the person on whose behalf a solicitation or sales promotion is being conducted is a charitable trust or that the proceeds of such solicitation or sales promotion shall be used for charitable purposes, if such is not the fact.

It's a felony if the value involved is over $500.

Quote from: Friday on September 26, 2007, 10:37 PM NHFT
A year ago, when I was running for the Executive Committee of the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire (LPNH), two different people pulled me aside and quietly encouraged me to run *against* Jim for the position of Secretary.  At that point, I knew Jim had a reputation for flakiness.

For the record, I believe I was one of those people.  While I still like Jim as a person, his flakiness (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=1346.msg19600#msg19600) is legendary (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=5747.msg100357#msg100357) at this point.... and Friday does a good job of listing the latest woes.

Friday, I wish you hadn't had to write this letter... I wish that I'd been wrong about it 2 years ago as linked above... or that JP would grow up already and take some personal responsibility.  Two years later, he's now over 21, so any possible excuses as to his not yet being an full adult have expired.   Sadly, I think he's lost his chance to change with many... I could list a few other instances I'm aware of, involving a myriad of folks and situations, but I won't, because the trend is clear and has been for some time - more fuel on the fire won't make a difference.

That said, I don't see the value in pursuing legal action against him, because the greater harm is caused, not healed, in doing so.  LPNH doesn't need the bad press, and restitution is unlikely...  JP has now burnt bridges with the Democrats (as Rearden alludes to... JP could have been easily elected as a State Rep in Concord, but flaked out the day of the primary, moving that same day intentionally), and the Libertarians... His website (which I host, BTW, paid in advance but I will not renew the arrangement due to his behavior with the LPNH) links (http://jimcperry.com/links.html) to neither, but only to the Republicans and Ron Paul.  He's also creating new orgs, like Jews for Ron Paul (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/015451.html), so I think the best answer is going to be a shunning.  Let those who associate with him know the facts, and let them judge for themselves if they want to deal with him.  No force or threats are needed, IMHO.  If people had merely shunned him in the past, he wouldn't have been elected to an LPNH spot in the first place.

Damn now this really sucks.

I have to admit Seth was right about something.

Quote from: SethCohn on September 27, 2007, 05:18 PM NHFT
That said, I don't see the value in pursuing legal action against him, because the greater harm is caused, not healed, in doing so.  LPNH doesn't need the bad press, and restitution is unlikely...

I would also advise against filing a lawsuit if you won't get any money out of it anyway, but from what mvpel and GraniteForge point out, there are criminal charges here that the LPNH, as a nonprofit, may be required to pursue, lest the contributors to the raffle be able to hold the LPNH responsible for the fraud.

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 10:02 AM NHFT
Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Up to eight now...

Quote from: GraniteForge on September 27, 2007, 12:58 AM NHFT

Quote from: Friday on September 27, 2007, 12:03 AM NHFT
I can't even sleep.   >:(  All the wasted time, and the pilfered donations, is bad enough...but to then attempt to lay the blame on someone else....   :puke:

By reading this, I am guessing that any monies I spent for these tickets was fraudulantly obtained.

I'm not sure I follow you.  If you mean you're asking about money you spent purchasing raffle tickets, then yes, you were defrauded by Jim.  However, the LPNH can and will cover the cost of the raffle prizes regardless.  Your tickets will be included in the random drawing, and if your ticket is selected, you'll win a gun.  Sorry if I was unclear on that point.

Quote
I further read that you have no intent to seek redress.  While this might be the best choice from your personal world view, I submit to your attention that if you are, in fact, a fiduciary of the corporation that backed the (now, apparantly fraudulant) sales of tickets, you have an obligation - both personal and corporate - to distance yourself from the individual that you claim acted in an unauthorized manner, to mitigate damages done, and to make your corporation whole (in finance and in reputation).

I suggest you consult your corporate attorney, and initiate appropriate action against the offending individual.

No intent to seek redress?  I thought my post was long enough as is, so I didn't include all the gory details, but I have been "seeking redress" for several months now.  Considering how many other people to whom Jim apparently owes money, including hospitals (who I am quite sure can afford more lawyers than the LPNH can), I strongly suspect it would be counterproductive for me to pursue this via an attorney and the court system.  However, I appreciate the advice, and I will look into it.  If I have some sort of legal obligation to the LPNH membership to pursue this through the court system, then...  :coffee:

Thank you so much to all of you for the moral support and kind words.  I feel so icky about this whole thing.  And Rearden and Russell, I knew nothing about either of those incidents you cite, so I guess it was for the best to get this all out in the open. 

And yes, Seth, you were right.  God I hate it when that happens.  :BangHead:

This is very unfortunate. Before I fled Minnesota for New Hampshire, the LPMN underwent a similar fraud situation with their Treasurer, but the monetary damages were much more significant. It took months of hard work by a new volunteer Treasurer to sort through the mess, and police did eventually get involved.

Quote from: SethCohn on September 27, 2007, 05:18 PM NHFT
he's now over 21, so any possible excuses as to his not yet being an full adult have expired.

Naw, now he can legally use the excuse that he was drunk!

Quote from: Insurgent on September 27, 2007, 07:32 PM NHFT
This is very unfortunate. Before I fled Minnesota for New Hampshire, the LPMN underwent a similar fraud situation with their Treasurer, but the monetary damages were much more significant. It took months of hard work by a new volunteer Treasurer to sort through the mess, and police did eventually get involved.

I've often wondered why an organization would leave their entire financial situation in the hands of a single officer. Why not have one of the other officers review the ledgers and balance statements periodically?

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 08:31 PM NHFT

Quote from: Insurgent on September 27, 2007, 07:32 PM NHFT
This is very unfortunate. Before I fled Minnesota for New Hampshire, the LPMN underwent a similar fraud situation with their Treasurer, but the monetary damages were much more significant. It took months of hard work by a new volunteer Treasurer to sort through the mess, and police did eventually get involved.

I've often wondered why an organization would leave their entire financial situation in the hands of a single officer. Why not have one of the other officers review the ledgers and balance statements periodically?

That was part of the fix we put in afterwards, at least as long as I was chair. (I was the state chair during the unfortunate criminal incident) Rex, the replacement treasurer, worked miracles. I just wish we could get him to move here.

Quote from: Ron Helwig on September 27, 2007, 09:08 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 08:31 PM NHFT

Quote from: Insurgent on September 27, 2007, 07:32 PM NHFT
This is very unfortunate. Before I fled Minnesota for New Hampshire, the LPMN underwent a similar fraud situation with their Treasurer, but the monetary damages were much more significant. It took months of hard work by a new volunteer Treasurer to sort through the mess, and police did eventually get involved.

I've often wondered why an organization would leave their entire financial situation in the hands of a single officer. Why not have one of the other officers review the ledgers and balance statements periodically?

That was part of the fix we put in afterwards, at least as long as I was chair. (I was the state chair during the unfortunate criminal incident) Rex, the replacement treasurer, worked miracles. I just wish we could get him to move here.

Nice.

This should be standard for every corporation. The template that is usually used when incorporating is to have a president, vice president, secretary, and treasurer. A "vice treasurer" or expectation that the secretary or president vet the treasurer's work should be standard, not an innovation that some people implement after learning a hard lesson.

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 06:14 PM NHFT

Quote from: SethCohn on September 27, 2007, 05:18 PM NHFT
That said, I don't see the value in pursuing legal action against him, because the greater harm is caused, not healed, in doing so.  LPNH doesn't need the bad press, and restitution is unlikely...

I would also advise against filing a lawsuit if you won't get any money out of it anyway, but from what mvpel and GraniteForge point out, there are criminal charges here that the LPNH, as a nonprofit, may be required to pursue, lest the contributors to the raffle be able to hold the LPNH responsible for the fraud.

The raffle was likely against the law to begin with folks.  A lawsuit would be a joke and hurt all parties more.

You can sue someone till you are blue in the face, but if he doesn't have the money, it really doesn't matter.  Legal violence isn't going to solve the problem.  Frauds should be shunned.  Sunshine is the best disinfectant. 

On a personal note, I really like J.P., and am very saddened that this has happened.   :'( :'( :'(

Quote from: Scott Roth on September 28, 2007, 12:42 AM NHFT
Hey, he owes alot of people quite a bit of money...is that the problem?

There is a distinct difference between just "owing a lot of people money" and having actually stolen the money from them. Everyone falls on hard times - and sometimes people aren't able to pay debts when they said they would. That, I believe, people can accept. Blatantly defrauding people who consider you a friend and are often already tolerating more than necessary trying to help you is just unacceptable.

For the record, I was the printer of the raffle tickets. I gave Jim the invoice and he told me on numerous occassions that he had given it to the treasurer and she would write em a check at the next meeting. Meetings would come, meetings would go - and never a check. When I finally contacted Sandy directly, she got me the check pronto. Jim had never given her the invoice. We're talking months of waiting here.

What irks me is, I'm a small business and I am often scrambling to collect my A/R in order to pay what I need to operate. Each week, I put paying Jim ahead of paying myself. All those months that I was believing his lies about the check, I was making sure that HE got paid though! Looking back at my "Jim experience", I think Jim figured the purpose of my business was to provide him with a paycheck. I trusted him - even though so many people warned me about his flakiness - figuring he just needed an opportunity to get ahead. I won't go into details here, but based on my experience, I am sure that all of what Sandy said is true and that many others have be duped by Jim and, like myself, opted to write it off as a life lesson and a bad decisions, and kept it quiet to not cause Jim any embarrassment.

Sandy - good for you for stepping up and doing what more of us probably should have been more diligent about.

Quote from: Keith and Stuff on September 27, 2007, 11:18 PM NHFT
The raffle was likely against the law to begin with folks.  A lawsuit would be a joke and hurt all parties more.

That's not what the City of Concord told us when they took our money and issued us a raffle permit.

Quote from: Scott Roth on September 28, 2007, 12:42 AM NHFT
Hey, he owes alot of people quite a bit of money...is that the problem?

Yes

Quote from: mvpel on September 27, 2007, 03:22 PM NHFT
From the RSAs:

Quote637:4 Theft by Deception. –
    I. A person commits theft if he obtains or exercises control over property of another by deception and with a purpose to deprive him thereof.
II. For the purposes of this section, deception occurs when a person purposely:
    (e) Misrepresents to or misleads any person, in any manner, so as to make that person believe that the person on whose behalf a solicitation or sales promotion is being conducted is a charitable trust or that the proceeds of such solicitation or sales promotion shall be used for charitable purposes, if such is not the fact.

It's a felony if the value involved is over $500.

Couldn't this be used as leverage? Send him an official letter explaining that you will press charges (not sue) because if he doesn't pay this money back, he's commited a felony.

Quote from: dalebert on September 28, 2007, 08:33 AM NHFT

Quote from: mvpel on September 27, 2007, 03:22 PM NHFT
From the RSAs:

Quote637:4 Theft by Deception. –
    I. A person commits theft if he obtains or exercises control over property of another by deception and with a purpose to deprive him thereof.
II. For the purposes of this section, deception occurs when a person purposely:
    (e) Misrepresents to or misleads any person, in any manner, so as to make that person believe that the person on whose behalf a solicitation or sales promotion is being conducted is a charitable trust or that the proceeds of such solicitation or sales promotion shall be used for charitable purposes, if such is not the fact.

It's a felony if the value involved is over $500.

Couldn't this be used as leverage? Send him an official letter explaining that you will press charges (not sue) because if he doesn't pay this money back, he's commited a felony.

To prove "deception," you'd probably have to prove that he intentionally defrauded the LPNH.  Knowing JP, I don't think he meant to keep the money.  It just happened that way...  ::)

If there was money available to have avoided getting in this position, he would have supplied it.  At his age, 23, I believe, had I been in this position, I would have pleaded to wealthier (smarter, more responsible) family members.  I'm guessing he is tapped out there, too.
If all of you had the history some of us have had with Jim, you would just say "Drop it!" and go with the shunning. 

This situation reminds me of our former adoption agency - the coordinator in Russia was either too proud or too embarrassed to admit that the wheels were falling off and smoke was pouring out, and just kept telling us and the US coordinator what he thought we wanted to hear.  Yes, sure, no problem, next week, Monday, after the holidays, blah blah blah.

Wow, I would sure hate to be in Jim's shoes right now.

He conducted himself irresponsibly, and got exactly what he deserved.  He has been exposed and now faces shunning by the very folks who supported him the most.  This is true justice, and a far better deterrent of irresponsible behavior than anything the State can dish out.  Who wouldn't think twice about conducting themselves irresponsibly toward members of this group, after observing what has happened to this individual?

Imagine a world where consumer protection companies provide honor ratings on individuals, similar to the more narrowly tailored credit ratings provided by credit bureaus, and businesses/individuals provide highly effective enforcement of responsible conduct through relentless ostracization of irresponsible individuals.  In other words, imagine what we are witnessing here, only on a universal scale.  No initiation of force, just withholding of values.  This is the sheer beauty of the free market justice system.

Sandy, you certainly did the right thing by exposing this individual at the right time.  In doing so, you provided a shining example of how well the free market works when the State is not involved.

Quote from: srqrebel on September 28, 2007, 09:22 AM NHFTImagine a world where consumer protection companies provide honor ratings on individuals, similar to the more narrowly tailored credit ratings provided by credit bureaus, and businesses/individuals provide highly effective enforcement of responsible conduct through relentless ostracization of irresponsible individuals.  In other words, imagine what we are witnessing here, only on a universal scale.  No initiation of force, just withholding of values.  This is the sheer beauty of the free market justice system.

Sounds like a great idea for a website, if you could figure out how to prevent abuse by petty and vindictive people, of which there are no shortage in the world unfortunately.

Quote from: mvpel on September 28, 2007, 09:34 AM NHFT

Quote from: srqrebel on September 28, 2007, 09:22 AM NHFTImagine a world where consumer protection companies provide honor ratings on individuals, similar to the more narrowly tailored credit ratings provided by credit bureaus, and businesses/individuals provide highly effective enforcement of responsible conduct through relentless ostracization of irresponsible individuals.  In other words, imagine what we are witnessing here, only on a universal scale.  No initiation of force, just withholding of values.  This is the sheer beauty of the free market justice system.

Sounds like a great idea for a website, if you could figure out how to prevent abuse by petty and vindictive people, of which there are no shortage in the world unfortunately.

You are right, there is no shortage of petty and vindictive people in the current ineffective State-based system.  In a free market system there is a powerful incentive to be honorable -- especially when you know that conducting an unfounded attack will quickly backfire and permanently damage your reputation and ability to conduct business.

How does Ebay do it?  Such individuals are swiftly exposed, because that is exactly what such a system is designed to do.

On this forum, petty and vindictive people are quickly exposed as trolls.  Have you ever noticed how the trolls' attempts at destroying the karma ratings of well liked forum participants tends to backfire?

Seems to work pretty well for the credit bureaus, too.  They have a procedure for identifying and removing erroneous information.

Applying that objection to the present case, who would even desire to smear Sandy for exposing JP for who he is? JP himself?  How far would he get?  Speaking for myself, I have no personal experience with either Sandy or JP, but judging by the huge weight of evidence from others supporting Sandy's characterization of JP, and lack of counter-evidence, there is no question in my mind who I would trust.  Even if someone tried to conduct a smear campaign on Sandy.

I happen to have a lot of faith in the goodness of mankind, while recognizing the the corrupting influences of the State.  Let me just say this, if petty and vindictive individuals outnumbered honorable ones, human civilization could not thrive under any system.

There have been three or four different threads about creating a social networking site for freestaters. If any of these sites ever come to fruition, I would definitely like to see a reputation system implemented in it.

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 10:02 AM NHFT
Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Up to fourteen now...

Quote from: srqrebel on September 28, 2007, 10:29 AM NHFT
I happen to have a lot of faith in the goodness of mankind, while recognizing the the corrupting influences of the State.  Let me just say this, if petty and vindictive individuals outnumbered honorable ones, human civilization could not thrive under any system.

That reminds me of something Robert Heinlein wrote back in 1952 for a radio audience. Here is part of it.  "I believe in my fellow citizens. Our headlines are splashed with crime, yet for every criminal there are 10,000 honest decent kindly men. If it were not so, no child would live to grow up, business could not go on from day to day. Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries --but it is a force stronger than crime."
It is a bit dated now, but I still enjoy it.  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/thisibelieve.html (http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/thisibelieve.html)

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 28, 2007, 10:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 10:02 AM NHFT
Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Up to fourteen now...

I'm an old school jp ignorer :)

Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 28, 2007, 12:56 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 28, 2007, 10:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 10:02 AM NHFT
Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Up to fourteen now...

I'm an old school jp ignorer :)

How old school are you ?
Did you not accept his letters in the mail?
Did you refuse delivery buy the Pony Express?
Did you not take those scroll notes he tried to slip to you?
Or did you refuse the effort of lifting one of those heavy
chipped out stone tablets?

Quote from: Pat K on September 28, 2007, 02:05 PM NHFT

Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 28, 2007, 12:56 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 28, 2007, 10:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 10:02 AM NHFT
Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Up to fourteen now...

I'm an old school jp ignorer :)

How old school are you ?
Did you not accept his letters in the mail?
Did you refuse delivery buy the Pony Express?
Did you not take those scroll notes he tried to slip to you?
Or did you refuse the effort of lifting one of those heavy
chipped out stone tablets?

He first ignored him using 'runes'

Quote from: Lloyd  Danforth on September 28, 2007, 04:00 PM NHFT

Quote from: Pat K on September 28, 2007, 02:05 PM NHFT

Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 28, 2007, 12:56 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 28, 2007, 10:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 10:02 AM NHFT
Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Up to fourteen now...

I'm an old school jp ignorer :)

How old school are you ?
Did you not accept his letters in the mail?
Did you refuse delivery buy the Pony Express?
Did you not take those scroll notes he tried to slip to you?
Or did you refuse the effort of lifting one of those heavy
chipped out stone tablets?

He first ignored him using 'runes'

;D

GraniteForge is correct. I am sorry but you may have a legal responsibility to "turn him in" even if you don't want to. Please consult an attorney and you may also need to contact the LP (national) if you are an affiliate or subsidiary.

"A board of directors also has certain legal obligations, known as duties. While the details may vary from state to state, here are some common legal responsibilities for members of non-profit boards:

    * Take reasonable care when making decisions for the organization (called "duty of care")
    * Act in the best interest of the organization (called "duty of loyalty")
    * Act in accordance with the organization's mission (called "duty of obedience")
    * Stand aside when there is a conflict of interest (called "recusal")"

the below article is NH specific

http://doj.nh.gov/publications/nameofcharity.html

Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 28, 2007, 12:56 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 28, 2007, 10:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 10:02 AM NHFT
Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Up to fourteen now...

I'm an old school jp ignorer :)

Yea, Russell started doing it before it was cool.

Quote from: Rochelle on September 29, 2007, 04:31 AM NHFT

Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 28, 2007, 12:56 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 28, 2007, 10:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 27, 2007, 10:02 AM NHFT
Looks like he took off from the forum here on 2007-09-07. If y'all want to shun him on the forum, single click:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=ignore;u=102

Up to fourteen now...

I'm an old school jp ignorer :)

Yea, Russell started doing it before it was cool.

Yes, Russell is the "Ignorer," just as W. is the "Decider."  I vastly prefer the "Ignorer."

You do not need another reputation system. Such an electronic system is a great danger to privacy. We've already created a ZAP-based system that should work well in situations such as this.

We really need a tuath. Now you know why.


Tuath Bylaws (http://www1.freewebs.com/freedomfriendstuath/bylaws.htm)

Purpose

The founders of this tuath have concluded, through the many terrible and treacherous lessons of history, that the only legitimate contract is one entered into absolutely voluntarily by all parties involved.

Each founder of this tuath has agreed that it is only acceptable to live by the Zero Aggression Principle. Further, as we have come to know and trust each other, we have learned the incredible benefits of openly expressing this shared principle between each other.

These likeminded individuals have earned each other's trust, strengthened each other's honorable reputations, amicably resolved conflicts between one another, and voluntarily worked together to help and protect each other in times of need.

We therefore created this tuath, or "community", to enable anyone to express their shared belief in the Zero Aggression Principle, to seek an honorable reputation and politely solve conflicts among friends, and to voluntarily help fellow members in need.


Members

Anyone can sign a member contract, a pledge to all members of the tuath, which must have the signatures of the new member and an existing member as a witness of the pledge. Membership is immediate upon making this pledge.

After this contract is signed by both people it should be sent to the administrator to add to the filing cabinet.


Board

The board, consisting of 3 members, collectively owns the tuath as well as all contracts, records, and property of the tuath. Two board members constitute a majority, and majority decisions are binding on the board and the tuath.


Administrator

The administrator keeps records of member contracts in a filing cabinet and must sign the following contract of confidentiality that will be kept by the board members:

"I pledge to the members of the board to keep all contracts and their contents completely confidential."

The administrator's only duties are:

Member Contracts:
-Add new member contracts to the filing cabinet;
-Replace contracts for members who renew to update their contact information;
-Remove contracts of those who send a signed and witnessed request to leave the tuath;
-Remove contracts of those who are banished by a board of arbitrators of this tuath; and
-Keep the filing cabinet and protect it from any possible threat.

Arbitration Trial Records:
-Manage and protect arbitration trial and judgement records in the filing cabinet.


Arbitration

Initiation:

Arbitration can be initiated to seek restitution for a wrongdoing or to seek banishment of a specific member.

If members cannot amicably solve a conflict between themselves, they are urged to work with other members to mediate the conflict. Rejection of mediation is likely to harm one or both members' reputations.

As a last resort, arbitration can be initiated against any member for a violation of the Zero Aggression Principle. The member convicted must pay each arbitrator at least 5 ounces of silver for each day of their attendance at the trial.

After the administrator receives a signed, witnessed request to start arbitration, the trial begins. Using a random number generator, he selects five arbitrators to oversee the trial. Arbitrators are sought until five members agree to the task.

The board can simplify arbitrator selection by separating the tuath into chapters, if desired.

No member, prosecution or defense, may seek new arbitrators for his trial, though he can always ask an arbitrator to recuse himself from the trial for good reason. Arbitrators may leave a trial at will and carry no obligations.

Trial:

Both members and all arbitrators should attend the trial, though a trial can be held without one of the two members in the case. Arbitrators determine the rules, procedures, schedule, burden of proof, and judgements of the trial, as well as the restitution and trial fees owed by either party.

Restitution Judgements:

Corporal punishment is not allowed under these bylaws.

All five arbitrators must agree unanimously on all decisions or the prosecution will fail. Restitution judgements against each member are created in the form of a document listing the complaint, decision, restitution amounts, and a pledge signed by all arbitrators verifying their unanimous agreement.

Restitution judgements for a victim of aggression may be sold, in part or in full, to any other member for any price by signing an agreement to that effect. A member may do this to avoid the pain of collection.

Did Jim ever join your Tuath?

If JP can be a gay-mennonite-jew ... then I guess I can be the "Ignorer".
I didn't go back to tablets, but I do have to ignore each of his new personalities online. I just delete his spam political emails about the LP or Ron Paul.

Last night Jim made contact with me for the first time in months... not to make arrangements to repay any of the money owed, or just to apologize, but to say that he has received three threats of physical force about this.  He requests that the threats of physical force/death threats (direct quote) stop.  So... exerting Herculean strength to not insert an emoticon right about now...

I would appreciate it if no one would threaten Jim with physical force up to and including death over this incident.  I figure that no one person could have been ripped off more than, say, 20 dollars from buying raffle tickets?  That hardly seems worth a death threat.  Also, it probably just gives him an excuse to feel victimized, rather than guilty.  So please knock it off.  Thanks.

If I remember correctly he threatened to sue people for revealing his behavior in the past.

Perhaps his reporting of the "threats" is a ploy to make him look like the victim.

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on September 30, 2007, 09:39 AM NHFT
If I remember correctly he threatened to sue people for revealing his behavior in the past.

Thanks for the info.  Another thing of which I was not aware. 
:coffee:

I assume from what I read here and elsewhere that Jim owes much more than $20 to many people.

I can't abide by anyone threatening him with violence and also would recommend they stop.

People who have problems getting along with others in a responsible way (repaying personal loans or favors, being entrusted with an organization's money etc) can simply be avoided if necessary to protect oneself.

There are lots of people in the world who for one reason or another, do not act responsibly with the property of others. Some of us, when confronted with people who are always 'takers' and never 'givers' will consider it a lesson learned and move on to those who know how to reciprocate.

people will follow through on their threats against jp, just like jp follows through on his commitments

Quote from: GraniteForge on September 30, 2007, 01:39 PM NHFT
No matter what you do, I am amazed that you are going forward with the raffle.  The integrity of the process has evaporated.  The trust that ticket buyers place in the group selling the tickets has been breached.  Your reluctance to do the right thing makes the whole process even more suspect.  No matter who wins now, its going to have the stink of a scam. 

What?  Where's the scam? 

Quote from: GraniteForge on September 30, 2007, 01:39 PM NHFT

Quote from: Friday on September 30, 2007, 09:19 AM NHFT
Last night Jim made contact with me for the first time in months... not to make arrangements to repay any of the money owed, or just to apologize, but to say that he has received three threats of physical force about this.  He requests that the threats of physical force/death threats (direct quote) stop.  So... exerting Herculean strength to not insert an emoticon right about now...

I would appreciate it if no one would threaten Jim with physical force up to and including death over this incident.  I figure that no one person could have been ripped off more than, say, 20 dollars from buying raffle tickets?  That hardly seems worth a death threat.  Also, it probably just gives him an excuse to feel victimized, rather than guilty.  So please knock it off.  Thanks.

I would guess he's lying about the threats, but since he's already living in a criminal world, he ought to just threaten them right back.

The problem here is that you aren't getting that its not him who has ripped off NH's gun owners, its you.  He is your agent.  He collected monies for your benifit.   Either he acted on your behalf, in which case you are definitely on the hook, or he acted without your knowledge, in which case you are a victim.  In either case, the fact that he was doing this out in public means that you can't just hide this away and handle it internally.  I am confident that your attorney will tell you that you have a legal duty to bring this to the attention of the authorities for investigation.

No matter what you do, I am amazed that you are going forward with the raffle.  The integrity of the process has evaporated.  The trust that ticket buyers place in the group selling the tickets has been breached.  Your reluctance to do the right thing makes the whole process even more suspect.  No matter who wins now, its going to have the stink of a scam. 

I don't know what your problem is.  I already said that the LPNH collected the tickets sold by Jim, just not the cash. I said that we will be awarding two guns to two ticket buyers, just like we promised.  And I said I will fulfill all of my obligations as treasurer.

Quote from: Friday on September 30, 2007, 09:19 AM NHFT
Last night Jim made contact with me for the first time in months... not to make arrangements to repay any of the money owed, or just to apologize, but to say that he has received three threats of physical force about this.  He requests that the threats of physical force/death threats (direct quote) stop. 

I need to correct myself here.  Jim sent me two emails last night, but I overlooked the first one and had only read the second one (about the threats) when I posted this.  He is now acknowledging to the ExComm that he owes the LPNH money; apologizes for "dropping the ball"; and says he will bring the money he owes to the LPNH convention on Oct. 27th.

Quote from: Friday on September 30, 2007, 07:10 PM NHFTI already said that the LPNH collected the tickets sold by Jim, just not the cash.

I guess it wasn't clear to everyone that you have verified that you collected every last one of the tickets he sold, as I was unclear on that as well.

And indeed, given that you're not the one making threats, then it would seem that he's making his request of the wrong person.

Can you check that you have my 3 tickets: 2001, 2002, 2003

Quote from: alaska on September 30, 2007, 07:57 PM NHFTSure he is.

It suggests, at least, that he's already spent the money, otherwise one would think he'd bring the money to the LPNH sooner than four weeks from now.

Quote from: ny2nh on October 01, 2007, 10:27 AM NHFT
Can you check that you have my 3 tickets: 2001, 2002, 2003

Yep, I have your tickets.  :)

Anyone else who is concerned can IM or email me with your ticket numbers and I will check for you.

Quote from: Lloyd  Danforth on September 30, 2007, 06:27 AM NHFT
Did Jim ever join your Tuath?

I do not believe Jim ever joined, but the tuath would have been more likely to recover the cash from him and prevent most of this damage in the first place (after an initial incident).

A tuath is a de-facto voluntarist reputation-management system. For example, libertarian political organizations can simply refuse to endorse candidates that are not in good standing in the tuath. This weeds out known thieves and fraudsters without any effort while also giving them a second chance to make things right by paying restitution to their victims.

Establish your reputation, protect yourself and your assets, and utilize the only proven alternative to government. Join the tuath.

Did I mention it's free?

What are you waiting for?

Jim has made full payment to the LPNH for his raffle tickets.   :Dollar_-_Silver:

Quote from: Friday on October 15, 2007, 12:44 PM NHFT
Jim has made full payment to the LPNH for his raffle tickets.   :Dollar_-_Silver:

This is wonderful!! Score!

Great news.

Has he made any efforts yet to make amends for everything else people in this thread brought up?

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 15, 2007, 01:27 PM NHFT
Great news.

Has he made any efforts yet to make amends for everything else people in this thread brought up?

I've abandoned any thoughts that I might ever recoup any of my losses...since it's been over 2 years now.

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 15, 2007, 01:27 PM NHFT
Great news.

Has he made any efforts yet to make amends for everything else people in this thread brought up?

No idea.  He hasn't offered any explanation for why it took 8 months to hand over the LPNH money, aside from the aforementioned "I dropped the ball" remark.

Well, at least he's coming around to doing the right thing a bit at a time. Has he seen this thread?

Shunning works :)

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 15, 2007, 03:11 PM NHFT
Well, at least he's coming around to doing the right thing a bit at a time. Has he seen this thread?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the answer is yes.

I find it interesting that he paid this as it probably isn't going to fix things on the whole.

Well, it was the right thing to do....I mean, he would have to be delusional to think it would "fix" everything...so maybe he just really wanted to do right, you know?

Yes, I find it encouraging. I never planned on shunning him anyway as it seemed unlikely we would meet and, if we did, ignoring him would be awkward.

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 15, 2007, 03:11 PM NHFT
Well, at least he's coming around to doing the right thing a bit at a time. Has he seen this thread?

I'm glad he came around.  And I appreciate his efforts to fix things.

I do wish to warn people, however, that I have had experience in the past where Jim has "come around", and begun to act in a more responsible fashion, and he 1. falls back into his old habits and 2. he seems to think a couple of months of "changed" behaviour makes up for years of irresponsibility.  You don't claim a reputation overnight, you earn one, and like anything you earn, the hours invested reflect the strength and consistancy (or amount) of that which you earn.  It will take time and energy for him to fix his reputation among us.  Especially time.

I am all for supporting him if he changes his behaviour, pays what is due to those he owes, and becomes a self-responsible individual.  I do like Jim, he's a good kid, and his intentions are usually good. 

However, it will take a good long time of him being a self-responsible individual before I will trust him with responsibility for anything or anyone else. 

I personally can't shun him, as I've known him since he was 16 years old and somehow despite my youth I've been his big sister ever since - but I personally do not trust him with money, and I respect anyone else's distrust of him.

I realize this is a late post on this thread, and I could add my own commentary to the list of "things Jim has done to offend", but beating a dead horse doesn't solve anything. 

Time will tell.  And supporting his good behaviours may help him, and for some of us, selectively shunning him in activities we disapprove of (I will not loan him money, for example) will, in the long run, teach him better than a lawsuit would.

I'd love to say "he's young, he'll get over it" but hey - I'm youngER, and I often find his behaviour appalling.

-Avens

Quote from: Avens O'Brien on October 15, 2007, 10:24 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 15, 2007, 03:11 PM NHFT
Well, at least he's coming around to doing the right thing a bit at a time. Has he seen this thread?

I'm glad he came around.  And I appreciate his efforts to fix things.

I do wish to warn people, however, that I have had experience in the past where Jim has "come around", and begun to act in a more responsible fashion, and he 1. falls back into his old habits and 2. he seems to think a couple of months of "changed" behaviour makes up for years of irresponsibility.  You don't claim a reputation overnight, you earn one, and like anything you earn, the hours invested reflect the strength and consistancy (or amount) of that which you earn.  It will take time and energy for him to fix his reputation among us.  Especially time.

I am all for supporting him if he changes his behaviour, pays what is due to those he owes, and becomes a self-responsible individual.  I do like Jim, he's a good kid, and his intentions are usually good. 

However, it will take a good long time of him being a self-responsible individual before I will trust him with responsibility for anything or anyone else. 

I personally can't shun him, as I've known him since he was 16 years old and somehow despite my youth I've been his big sister ever since - but I personally do not trust him with money, and I respect anyone else's distrust of him.

I realize this is a late post on this thread, and I could add my own commentary to the list of "things Jim has done to offend", but beating a dead horse doesn't solve anything. 

Time will tell.  And supporting his good behaviours may help him, and for some of us, selectively shunning him in activities we disapprove of (I will not loan him money, for example) will, in the long run, teach him better than a lawsuit would.

I'd love to say "he's young, he'll get over it" but hey - I'm youngER, and I often find his behaviour appalling.

-Avens

Thanks for that, Avens

Yes, thanks, Avens.  You probably know him better than anyone here, so I put a lot of weight behind your opinion.

I've never said anything to anyone about this but I figured if he was doing this on a regular basis someone else would finally bring it up.
I hadn't planned on it.

The amount of money I lent him is probably viewed as a drop in the bucket to most people. I think I only reminded him of it once, when I got angry about something else he did.

I am not the type who should ever lend money because I don't have the balls to ask for it back...

Quote from: Friday on October 15, 2007, 10:47 PM NHFT
Yes, thanks, Avens.  You probably know him better than anyone here, so I put a lot of weight behind your opinion.

Also, personally, shunning him completely doesn't allow him to make amends if he wants to, and I like to make sure people have such an opportunity (I'm big on the never sticking people in no-win situations if I can help it).

Ultimately, I want Jim to get his act together, do well, and be successful in many ways, because 1. the more successful he is the less he'll be mooching off of/owing others, and 2. the more successful he is, the more likely he is to be in a position to repay what he owes in kharma, if you know what I mean.

I don't have to make this whole getting-his-act-together thing easier for him, nor do I suggest anyone else does, however, I see no reason to make it harder.

My humble opinion of course. ;)

-A

Avens O'Brien...you are great.

Avens is the best thing J.P.ever did for me, although, maybe she was at that LP convention 3 or 4 years ago with her mom.

Jim says he was banned from NHFree shortly after I started this thread.  Is that correct?

For what it's worth, I would like to see him reinstated.  It wasn't my intention to talk about him behind his digital back (hence the "Open Letter"), and I think it's fair to let him respond to what various people have said about him, if he so chooses.  I know it's not my forum, but I wanted to put that out there to the powers that be (oh, and Russell, too  ;D ).

Quote from: Friday on October 16, 2007, 05:40 PM NHFT
Jim says he was banned from NHFree shortly after I started this thread.  Is that correct?

For what it's worth, I would like to see him reinstated.  It wasn't my intention to talk about him behind his digital back (hence the "Open Letter"), and I think it's fair to let him respond to what various people have said about him, if he so chooses.  I know it's not my forum, but I wanted to put that out there to the powers that be (oh, and Russell, too  ;D ).

Yes me too - Kat can you unban him? I should add that today he contacted me an offered to pay me back. I just wonder where he is getting all this money all of a sudden?

IMHO, if people are going to live without government, they'd better learn to live repsonsibly. I don't mind helping people out from time to time, but this just seemed to get out of hand.

He's offered to return my flag money, too.  I'll believe it when I see it.  I unbanned him, but noticed when I did that he's ignored my more people than EthanAllen is  :o

I've never had a reason to ignore anyone, either online or in person.

Oh, I just read my email, which included this from JP to someone else:

QuoteYes, I have burned many bridges and I cannot chalk it up to youth,
only to irresponsibility. I have no excuses. I let the ball drop and
have taken a laissez-faire attitude about responsibility too many
times. It's c cycle and I am working hard to break it - one thing both
Armen and Jenn have been working at me with for some time.

I did pay the LPNH back. Kat and Russell, and I will state this
publicly, are lying, I owe them nothing, they've never purchased nor
ordered flags from me, ever. I owe Jane $150 from a loan she gave me.
I owe the NHLA $200 from the campaign contribution that gave from
2006. Though Scott Roth is claiming I owe him money, Annie will vouch
that I do not.

I have not taken responsibilities given to me very seriously. Starting
with Vice Chair of the State Party to Secretary of the State Party and
then Chair of the Hillsborough County Party.

Right now, I am working on just getting things together and settling
my life down first, before I work on anything else. I'm taking classes
at Laconia's Tech College starting in January. I am about to buy
myself a car to replace the one that decided to make love to a group
of trees with me in it - so that I can start a job other than just
money coming in from my business.

I have contacted Jane and the NHLA about repaying those debts. The
NHLA has responded and I will be taking care of that one, Jane has not
responded yet. But I am sure she will and when se does, I want to
settle that debt as well.

I hope it isn't meaningless to apologize, because I truly am sorry. I
know that doesn't just cure everything, but I hope it's a good first
step.

Best,
JP

The little asshole is saying this to someone else while he's offering to pay me back.

This is the email he was sending me, while calling me a liar to others.

QuoteKat,

I was recently sent a copy (since I can't view the board) of your mention on the NHFree board of your not having received flags after having paid for them. In all honesty, I do not remember how much you gave me or for which flags. But if you could let me know how much and/or what flags, I can either send you the money back or send you flags.

Thanks,
JP

--

Quote from: Kat Kanning on October 16, 2007, 06:21 PM NHFT
This is the email he was sending me, while calling me a liar to others.

QuoteKat,

I was recently sent a copy (since I can't view the board) of your mention on the NHFree board of your not having received flags after having paid for them. In all honesty, I do not remember how much you gave me or for which flags. But if you could let me know how much and/or what flags, I can either send you the money back or send you flags.

Thanks,
JP

--

My deepest apologies Kat. I just saw the note I wrote myself when I opened my 2004/05 ledger. I really am sorry. This was entirely my fault.

I just dropped a $10 in the mail.

JP

Quote from: CNHT on October 16, 2007, 05:57 PM NHFT
Yes me too - Kat can you unban him? I should add that today he contacted me an offered to pay me back. I just wonder where he is getting all this money all of a sudden?

IMHO, if people are going to live without government, they'd better learn to live repsonsibly. I don't mind helping people out from time to time, but this just seemed to get out of hand.

I have both a flag business that that brings in a moderate amount of money and am using profits to pay folks back, like I should.

Jane, I emailed you twice regarding paying my debt with you. Could you please respond letting me know what I owe? Thanks.

JP

JP email calling me a liar about the flags is dated Date: Oct 16, 2007 2:54 PM btw.

Quote from: Kat Kanning on October 16, 2007, 06:36 PM NHFT

JP email calling me a liar about the flags is dated Date: Oct 16, 2007 2:54 PM btw.

Yes. I sent that this afternoon, before I looked at my 2004/05 ledger. This is my fault and I apologise for calling you a liar. It was entirely my fault.

Someone emailed me telling me Scott Roth posted on this thread that I owed him money. Though I have looked and not found such a post, I emailed him the following:

Quote
I have been informed that you have made a public request that I pay you rent due for the period of time I lived in Peterborough with you and Annie.

If this is so, please forward an invoice and I will do my best over the next couple of months to settle this debt.

He replied with:

QuoteNot sure when that was, but that debt was long ago and in a different life.

Quote from: J.P. on October 16, 2007, 06:35 PM NHFT
Jane, I emailed you twice regarding paying my debt with you. Could you please respond letting me know what I owe? Thanks.

I think you had the amount correct. I have not wanted to IM with you because of some of the nasty things you've said to me that were not deserved, starting in March of this year. But I am not going to repeat some of the things you said in your emails, because they include nasty comments about others that were not deserved either, but were said while you were in the process of trashing ME.

The money woes I can forgive; but lashing out at me who has done nothing but been good to you is despicable, not to mention getting me in trouble with others who did not know the whole story.

Quote from: CNHT on October 16, 2007, 06:54 PM NHFT
I think you had the amount correct. I have not wanted to IM with you because of some of the nasty things you've said to me that were not deserved, starting in March of this year. But I am not going to repeat some of the things you said in your emails, because they include nasty comments about others that were not deserved either, but were said while you were in the process of trashing ME.

The money woes I can forgive; but lashing out at me who has done nothing but been good to you is despicable, not to mention getting me in trouble with others who did not know the whole story.

Jane,

I am very sorry for hurting you. I know there is nothing I can do to fix the problem, but I can at least apologise and I am truly sorry.

Could you email me the email address to use for paypal?

Thanks.
JP

Heav'n has no rage like love to hatred turn'd
Nor Hell a fury, like a woman scorn'd.

Quote from: d_goddard on October 16, 2007, 07:50 PM NHFT
Heav'n has no rage like love to hatred turn'd
Nor Hell a fury, like a woman scorn'd.

Um, I think that was in reference to love affairs, not money and treachery.

Quote from: CNHT on October 16, 2007, 07:55 PM NHFT

Quote from: d_goddard on October 16, 2007, 07:50 PM NHFT
Heav'n has no rage like love to hatred turn'd
Nor Hell a fury, like a woman scorn'd.

Um, I think that was in reference to love affairs, not money and treachery.

There's a difference?

Quote from: Kat Kanning on October 16, 2007, 06:12 PM NHFT
He's offered to return my flag money, too.  I'll believe it when I see it.  I unbanned him, but noticed when I did that he's ignored my more people than EthanAllen is  :o

He swore up and down to me on Main St. in Concord during "market days" while running for the state house as a Democrat that he was a geo-mutualist in the hopes that the DFC would endorse him.

Many different things to many different people.  Probably would have made a good politician.

Now that JP is back online, we could stop referring to him in the third person and perhaps not ignore. JP, I don't have any personal beef with you but perhaps you could answer to some of the other allegations made in this thread, in order to make peace and clear your name.

Quote from: Rearden on September 26, 2007, 11:40 PM NHFT
I can add one anecdote.  When JP was running as a Democrat for state rep last year, in Concord, the NHLA gave him a campaign contribution, I believe for $100.  He won the primary, and then, when victory was all but certain, decided to move out of his district.  I was furious about this, and argued that he had made a commitment to run the race and serve if elected.  As I was on the board of the NHLA at the time, I moved that a letter be sent to JP, asking for the return of that contribution. 

The amount was $200 and I have contacted Carol to return the donation.

JP

Quote from: Insurgent on October 16, 2007, 08:58 PM NHFT
Now that JP is back online, we could stop referring to him in the third person and perhaps not ignore. JP, I don't have any personal beef with you but perhaps you could answer to some of the other allegations made in this thread, in order to make peace and clear your name.

Hey,

I think I have covered all the financial allegation at this point. If there is one you need me to address, please point it out.

My flakiness can only be solved by a slow battle to earn back a good reputation.

Thanks and I appreciate your willingness to listen.

JP

J.P., You are a friend, and I believe you when you say you didn't intend to defraud folks.  I hope you can work everything out to be free and clear.  Good luck.   :)  It is harder to regain trust than to lose it, so please understand that with many folks, this will be an issue. 

Quote from: J.P. on October 16, 2007, 09:33 PM NHFT
Hey,

I think I have covered all the financial allegation at this point. If there is one you need me to address, please point it out.

My flakiness can only be solved by a slow battle to earn back a good reputation.

Thanks and I appreciate your willingness to listen.

JP

J.P.:—

I don't know you personally, but I'm certainly willing to give you a second chance, as to your reputation, if you successfully make amends to all the people who have claims against you in this thread.

JP did pay Russell and I back, BTW.

Quote from: Scott Roth on November 10, 2007, 08:58 PM NHFT
"Though Scott Roth is claiming I owe him money, Annie will vouch that I do not."

In no way did I mean anything bad about this. I was answering a number of people who told me you told them that I owed you money and I was saying that Annie could vouch that you had forgiven the debt sometime ago. My email to you asking you if you wanted me to repay you several weeks ago was to find out if you had decided I did owe you the money, at which point I would have gladly paid or reconfirm what you had already said that you had forgiven the debt - since many people had either called or emailed me informing me that you had told them I was in debt to you. That quote was meant maliciously.

Quote from: freedominnh on November 10, 2007, 08:21 AM NHFT
Missed this thread completely.  Something really worked here ---libertine consciousness---conscience---fear of ostracism---fear of bodily harm---
personal responsibility and accountability---....

Personal Responsibility. Threat of bodily harm meant very little to me since I was not a violent aggressor - I was just an irresponsible ass when it came to other people's money and volunteer posts I had taken.

Quote from: Rearden on November 16, 2007, 01:37 AM NHFT
(Sigh)

Ditto that.  :(

I gave Jim his last applause, to put him at +1 cumulative. I stopped smiting a long time ago, so I won't take it back, but... dayumm.  >:(

Of course, the cited source is mostly pro-Israel, and anti-Ron Paul because he's anti-anything that will cut off foreign aid, and seeks to discredit Paul in any way he can, no matter how tenuous the ties.

Doesn't change the evidence that JCP is a flake.

Wasn't he Amish at one point?

Trouble is, Jim *is* Jewish, and the rest of the people are for real, and also Jewish so this is just a thinly supported hit piece.

NOTHING STICKS so they had to go with the raid and stealing gold.

That's not going to do anything but anger supporters and get more support, I can tell you that right now.

Quote from: Rearden on November 16, 2007, 01:37 AM NHFT
(Sigh)

Dammit, Jim.  Your personal decisions continue to exact a toll on all around you, and all who take you at your word.  This is perhaps your greatest error to date, with the most dire consequences.  Your flakiness is being used against a good, honest, and admirable man.   

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2007/11/jews-for-ron-paul-exposed-as-fraud-jim.html

I predicted this, and told him (and others on JfRP's board) that he should step down from JfRP, so he has nobody to blame but himself.
As usual, he merrily ignored the advice, and nobody else seemed willing to force the issue.  This is why I won't work with JP anymore, and urge others to avoid doing so.

well now, would you look at that....
someone here that is actually MORE reviled than me????
who knew??

Quote from: Rearden on November 16, 2007, 01:37 AM NHFTYour flakiness is being used against a good, honest, and admirable man.   
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2007/11/jews-for-ron-paul-exposed-as-fraud-jim.html

I guess any crackpot can attach themselves to the Ron Paul campaign.

I always thought JP looked the funniest in the Quaker 3 piece suit. I wonder if he is working on those long hair ringlet things next.

Quote from: babalugatz on November 16, 2007, 11:08 AM NHFT
well now, would you look at that....
someone here that is actually MORE reviled than me????
who knew??

You are not reviled by everyone...

And in JPs defense, I will say that he  really *is* Jewish, but likes to dabble in other associations, which I guess is his right.

Apparently he's not pure enough for that writer, though, who is totally neocon and off on everything else he wrote.

Quote from: mvpel on September 27, 2007, 03:22 PM NHFT
From the LPNH Statement of Principles:
It's a felony if the value involved is over $500.

I would check on this under NH law but in CA, if there is reason to believe someone committed a felony, you can place them under citizens arrest for the crime. Notify him that he is under citizens arrest for Grand Theft, stretch him out prone, handcuff him, then call the police. Under CA law, if he attempts to resist arrest, you can use "any means necessary" to make the arrest.

If you have irrefutable proof that he stole this $500, I would get to it. In my opinion, his ass should be in jail. This isn't one of those crimes where there are no victims. He has stolen other people's property and used it to his own benefit.

but some of us do not determine our behavior by NH law
.... if Jim still owed me money ... would I want taxpayers to have to pay for his jailing?

For latecomers to this (admittedly lengthy) thread: Jim has paid the LPNH in full.  That was posted some time ago.

Quote from: Friday on November 17, 2007, 08:19 AM NHFT
For latecomers to this (admittedly lengthy) thread: Jim has paid the LPNH in full.  That was posted some time ago.

that is good news :)

Quote from: Russell Kanning on November 17, 2007, 05:24 AM NHFT
but some of us do not determine our behavior by NH law
.... if Jim still owed me money ... would I want taxpayers to have to pay for his jailing?

I didn't say you have to determine your behavior based on NH law. The option is there if you want to take that route.

If none of your income goes to the state, I can see why having him jailed would present you with a moral dilema. If, on the other hand, you do pay taxes to the state, that option is always opened to you.

He still owes some of us...

Quote from: CNHT on November 18, 2007, 05:36 AM NHFT
He still owes some of us...

Citizen's arrest time...

What's it to you?  Has JP done something to you?

Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 18, 2007, 08:04 AM NHFT
What's it to you?  Has JP done something to you?

It's not my call. I didn't say it was. I'm merely offering my input like everyone else on these forums.

Quote from: Rearden on November 16, 2007, 01:37 AM NHFT
(Sigh)

Dammit, Jim.  Your personal decisions continue to exact a toll on all around you, and all who take you at your word.  This is perhaps your greatest error to date, with the most dire consequences.  Your flakiness is being used against a good, honest, and admirable man.   

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2007/11/jews-for-ron-paul-exposed-as-fraud-jim.html

It's unfortunate this happened and I am sorry it did. I didn't realize having an interest in theology was such a bad thing or exploring it was such a "great error." I have a Jewish mother and had a Christian father, by Jewish law this automatically makes me Jewish whether I'm observant or not, but I was raised primarily Christian, except for the one weekend a month I spent at my maternal grandparents house - which could only confuse those outside my family even more as my grandmother was Jewish though my grandfather was Unitarian.

I spent most of my teenage years going to a UU church in Billerica and explored Paganism a great deal as well as Eastern philosophy. I was 16 when I ordained myself on the silly but completely legal Universal Life Church website and decided to but Pagan Minister as my occupation on my yahoo profile at the time (Which if you notice, hasn't been logged into since 2001 and I don't even remember the password it was so long ago.)

Let's see... I very seriously considered going to UU seminary up until about a year and a half ago when I decided I wanted to explore my Jewish religious heritage a bit and discovered something that I finally liked enough to stick to (so much so that I even did a do-over on the ever painful brit milah to make sure it was done according to Jewish law). Sure, none of this excuses my admitted flakiness, but I have been observant with increasing enthusiasm for over a year now. Not that Sultan Knish has any right to demand I prove my religious observance since a Jew is a Jew is a Jew, but if anyone cares enough to call him, you can PM me for contact information to ask my Rabbi just what *he* thinks of all this.

And as for CNHT, my apologies, I will get what I owe you in the mail tomorrow, you'll hopefully have it by Wednesday.

Quote from: RangerProbst on November 18, 2007, 01:32 AM NHFT
I didn't say you have to determine your behavior based on NH law. The option is there if you want to take that route.

If none of your income goes to the state, I can see why having him jailed would present you with a moral dilema. If, on the other hand, you do pay taxes to the state, that option is always opened to you.

the whole base that the government rests on is:
we will punish bad people for you

I do not want to be part of it. JP's situation seems like an obvious time when government force would not make sense.

Quote from: J.P. on November 19, 2007, 01:25 AM NHFT
It's unfortunate this happened and I am sorry it did. I didn't realize having an interest in theology was such a bad thing or exploring it was such a "great error."

Let's see... I very seriously considered going to UU seminary up until about a year and a half ago when I decided I wanted to explore my Jewish religious heritage a bit and discovered something that I finally liked enough to stick to (so much so that I even did a do-over on the ever painful brit milah to make sure it was done according to Jewish law). Sure, none of this excuses my admitted flakiness, but I have been observant with increasing enthusiasm for over a year now. Not that Sultan Knish has any right to demand I prove my religious observance since a Jew is a Jew is a Jew, but if anyone cares enough to call him, you can PM me for contact information to ask my Rabbi just what *he* thinks of all this.

Sorry Jim but no. You're not just claiming to be a Jew, in the JTA piece you claimed to be a fully Orthodox Jew. You're actually a gay man and you were describing yourself as a Unitarian as recently as a few months ago. You've also got Pagan posts from much more recently than 2001.

So again you're lying and you've been lying all along. If you had stuck to just claiming to be Jewish, you might have walked, but you made the mistake of trying to for maximum authenticity by claiming to be an Orthodox Jew, something you're not.

You have the right to be Gay and a Unitarian, but when you also cynically claim to be an Orthodox Jew for the purpose of creating and running a political Jewish group and give interviews under false pretenses, you're just a fraud.

I notice your name is now gone from the Jews for Ron Paul site. I imagine they want to disassociate themselves from you. It's time you apologized for the deception and ended the fraud.

Quote from: Russell Kanning on November 19, 2007, 10:34 AM NHFT

Quote from: RangerProbst on November 18, 2007, 01:32 AM NHFT
I didn't say you have to determine your behavior based on NH law. The option is there if you want to take that route.

If none of your income goes to the state, I can see why having him jailed would present you with a moral dilema. If, on the other hand, you do pay taxes to the state, that option is always opened to you.

the whole base that the government rests on is:
we will punish bad people for you

I do not want to be part of it. JP's situation seems like an obvious time when government force would not make sense.

Indeed—after this craziness (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12076.msg206968#msg206968), let's not make another situation worse by involving the government...

Jeremy you have been on the forum less than six months... why do you feel the need to weigh in on incidents that predate your knowledge.

You are an intelligent and well read fellow, but as was the case in my life, wisdom takes time.

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 19, 2007, 12:37 PM NHFT
Jeremy you have been on the forum less than six months... why do you feel the need to weigh in on incidents that predate your knowledge.

You are an intelligent and well read fellow, but as was the case in my life, wisdom takes time.

The situation I linked to serves as a good cautionary example of why not to involve the State in personal disputes: It's a nice way to lose control of a situation and limit your options going forward. Is that something that you disagree with?

I was essentially reiterating Russell's opinion, whom I assume has been on the forum for even longer than yourself... considering he and his wife started the forum. Is there a reason why you take issue with what I said, but not what he said?

Yes Jeremy I've seen you weigh in as the moderator on both these situations. You are not familiar with the particulars in either case.

I didn't take Russell to task because he has the knowledge. The only reason I mention the amount of time you've been on the forum is to illustrate that many of the events linked to in both these situations are prior to your knowledge.

Don't mean to be harsh, just being direct.

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 19, 2007, 04:03 PM NHFT
Yes Jeremy I've seen you weigh in as the moderator on both these situations. You are not familiar with the particulars in either case.

I didn't take Russell to task because he has the knowledge. The only reason I mention the amount of time you've been on the forum is to illustrate that many of the events linked to in both these situations are prior to your knowledge.

Don't mean to be harsh, just being direct.

I do not know all the details behind the J.P. situation besides what was posted here; that's true. But I think as someone who mistrusts the State in general, and knows what happens when you involve it in affairs that could be settled without its involvement, I can certainly say without hesitation that getting the State involved is a bad idea.

As for the other situation, I've been trying to "moderate" that since it first blew up on the forum a few weeks ago. If there are any details that I'm not privy to, and I know there are, it's because I intentionally stepped out of the situation after it went downhill. I asked Natalie if she could do anything to help Rob out, because he had turned to her back during the U.S. Marshals raid, and I thought she'd be able to better handle it than I. I only know a little about what's going on between her and Ivy now, but it looks like my initial assessment of Rob—that the whole thing was a misunderstanding—is turning out to be correct. Notate that I am not trying to gloat that I was "right all along" or somesuch: So far I've been wrong at least twice on aspects of the situation, and I'm sure something will change again at some point—but I'd rather be proven wrong while trying to maintain an open mind about it, than be proven wrong after condemning one party over the other prematurely, like some people have been so quick to do.

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on November 19, 2007, 05:12 PM NHFT

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 19, 2007, 04:03 PM NHFT
Yes Jeremy I've seen you weigh in as the moderator on both these situations. You are not familiar with the particulars in either case.

I didn't take Russell to task because he has the knowledge. The only reason I mention the amount of time you've been on the forum is to illustrate that many of the events linked to in both these situations are prior to your knowledge.

Don't mean to be harsh, just being direct.

I do not know all the details behind the J.P. situation besides what was posted here; that's true. But I think as someone who mistrusts the State in general, and knows what happens when you involve it in affairs that could be settled without its involvement, I can certainly say without hesitation that getting the State involved is a bad idea.

As for the other situation, I've been trying to "moderate" that since it first blew up on the forum a few weeks ago. If there are any details that I'm not privy to, and I know there are, it's because I intentionally stepped out of the situation after it went downhill. I asked Natalie if she could do anything to help Rob out, because he had turned to her back during the U.S. Marshals raid, and I thought she'd be able to better handle it than I. I only know a little about what's going on between her and Ivy now, but it looks like my initial assessment of Rob—that the whole thing was a misunderstanding—is turning out to be correct. Notate that I am not trying to gloat that I was "right all along" or somesuch: So far I've been wrong at least twice on aspects of the situation, and I'm sure something will change again at some point—but I'd rather be proven wrong while trying to maintain an open mind about it, than be proven wrong after condemning one party over the other prematurely, like some people have been so quick to do.

I'm trying to tell you that stuff that was going over on a year ago is pertinent to the Rob situation. OK. You don't have all the information, neither did Dada, yet you guys keep make posts acting like you do.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 19, 2007, 10:46 AM NHFT

Sorry Jim but no. You're not just claiming to be a Jew, in the JTA piece you claimed to be a fully Orthodox Jew. You're actually a gay man and you were describing yourself as a Unitarian as recently as a few months ago. You've also got Pagan posts from much more recently than 2001.

So again you're lying and you've been lying all along. If you had stuck to just claiming to be Jewish, you might have walked, but you made the mistake of trying to for maximum authenticity by claiming to be an Orthodox Jew, something you're not.

You have the right to be Gay and a Unitarian, but when you also cynically claim to be an Orthodox Jew for the purpose of creating and running a political Jewish group and give interviews under false pretenses, you're just a fraud.

I notice your name is now gone from the Jews for Ron Paul site. I imagine they want to disassociate themselves from you. It's time you apologized for the deception and ended the fraud.

Well well, the quisling himself decides to show his face.

I know Jim and I can vouch for the fact that his MOTHER is Jewish thus it makes him Jewish. Is there some other litmus test to being Jewish I don't know about? What about the others in the group? Does this mean they can't discuss other religions which they may or may not be a part of? Since when is 'Pagan' a religion?

It's a study of a culture not a recognized religion so how could he BE one?

Go away moron. You don't care about JP, you're just trying to smear a candidate.

There are plenty of other 'Jews for Ron Paul' that are not in organized groups.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 19, 2007, 10:46 AM NHFT

Quote from: J.P. on November 19, 2007, 01:25 AM NHFT
It's unfortunate this happened and I am sorry it did. I didn't realize having an interest in theology was such a bad thing or exploring it was such a "great error."

Let's see... I very seriously considered going to UU seminary up until about a year and a half ago when I decided I wanted to explore my Jewish religious heritage a bit and discovered something that I finally liked enough to stick to (so much so that I even did a do-over on the ever painful brit milah to make sure it was done according to Jewish law). Sure, none of this excuses my admitted flakiness, but I have been observant with increasing enthusiasm for over a year now. Not that Sultan Knish has any right to demand I prove my religious observance since a Jew is a Jew is a Jew, but if anyone cares enough to call him, you can PM me for contact information to ask my Rabbi just what *he* thinks of all this.

Sorry Jim but no. You're not just claiming to be a Jew, in the JTA piece you claimed to be a fully Orthodox Jew. You're actually a gay man and you were describing yourself as a Unitarian as recently as a few months ago. You've also got Pagan posts from much more recently than 2001.

So again you're lying and you've been lying all along. If you had stuck to just claiming to be Jewish, you might have walked, but you made the mistake of trying to for maximum authenticity by claiming to be an Orthodox Jew, something you're not.

You have the right to be Gay and a Unitarian, but when you also cynically claim to be an Orthodox Jew for the purpose of creating and running a political Jewish group and give interviews under false pretenses, you're just a fraud.

I notice your name is now gone from the Jews for Ron Paul site. I imagine they want to disassociate themselves from you. It's time you apologized for the deception and ended the fraud.

Since when does being a gay man make one ineligible to be orthodox? Just curious. I know all about the abomination mentioned in Leviticus, thanks. But don't you think that me being a gay man and how that relates to my religious practice is a discussion left to be held between me and my Rabbi? I would think so.

Look, perhaps you have an idea of what orthodox means to you. We all have our own ideas of what certain words mean. As my Rabbi frequently tells me, to be orthodox is to try our very best to be shomer mitzvot and short of that to try our best as increasing our performance of mitzvot until we can reach that stage. I don't think you have the right to judge me on my religious observance as I have no right to judge you on yours.

That said, you DO have a right to judge me based on my actions in dealing with others, both politically and financially. I have made some very poor decisions in my life and I thank G-d that I am in a better position now to work on getting over them, past them and on to building trust with others again. Will it take years? Yeah, it will. I know that, I'm young and I have the time and the desire to rebuild the bridges I burned because those bridges lead to people I have a deep respect for and are folks who I wish to have in my life.

The underlying issue here in your case was you needed a way to attack Dr. Paul and unfortunately I allowed myself to be in a position to be the arrow you shot.

In a way, though, I should thank you. You've made it a lot easier for me to consolidate my screw-ups so I may be better able to right the wrongs I am personally responsible for.

Quote from: J.P. on November 19, 2007, 11:12 PM NHFT
The underlying issue here in your case was you needed a way to attack Dr. Paul and unfortunately I allowed myself to be in a position to be the arrow you shot.

This is true. No one here is defending the actions of a well-intentioned but sometimes misdirected young person, however, it's just an excuse to smear RP who has nothing to do with anything.

So go back under your rock from whence you came 'knish'. I thought it was against Jewish religion to gossip? How do we even know YOU are Jewish?

Quote from: CNHT on November 19, 2007, 10:32 PM NHFT
I know Jim and I can vouch for the fact that his MOTHER is Jewish thus it makes him Jewish. Is there some other litmus test to being Jewish I don't know about? What about the others in the group? Does this mean they can't discuss other religions which they may or may not be a part of? Since when is 'Pagan' a religion?

I'll repeat it slowly this time. In interviews Jim claimed to be an ORTHODOX JEW. This was a lie.

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/20071112jewsforronpaul.html

If there's such a thing as a Pagan Minister, then it's rather clearly a religion.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:11 AM NHFT

Quote from: CNHT on November 19, 2007, 10:32 PM NHFT
I know Jim and I can vouch for the fact that his MOTHER is Jewish thus it makes him Jewish. Is there some other litmus test to being Jewish I don't know about? What about the others in the group? Does this mean they can't discuss other religions which they may or may not be a part of? Since when is 'Pagan' a religion?

I'll repeat it slowly this time. In interviews Jim claimed to be an ORTHODOX JEW. This was a lie.

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/20071112jewsforronpaul.html

If there's such a thing as a Pagan Minister, then it's rather clearly a religion.

I'd be careful calling me a liar on this point. I'll admit I have been a bit flaky in the past and even called myself a Pagan Minister when I was 16, but I am an observant Jew and member of Chabad of New Hampshire and can back that up if need be.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:11 AM NHFT

Quote from: CNHT on November 19, 2007, 10:32 PM NHFT
I know Jim and I can vouch for the fact that his MOTHER is Jewish thus it makes him Jewish. Is there some other litmus test to being Jewish I don't know about? What about the others in the group? Does this mean they can't discuss other religions which they may or may not be a part of? Since when is 'Pagan' a religion?

I'll repeat it slowly this time. In interviews Jim claimed to be an ORTHODOX JEW. This was a lie.

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/20071112jewsforronpaul.html

If there's such a thing as a Pagan Minister, then it's rather clearly a religion.

Look as I said, you can take up your complaints with JP himself about whether he exaggerated his 'Jewishness' or not. But as far as denouncing the whole group, which is made up of many famous and important people, you are wrong and you are just a troll against RP.

I think it's clear to everyone here that while we do not defend someone being flaky, JP is Jewish according to Jewish religious law and other than that, what do you care?

Once again, bottom line is, you are looking to smear RP with something this insignificant in the grand scheme of things and that shows me and others what troll against RP you are.

Go away troll!

Quote from: J.P. on November 19, 2007, 11:12 PM NHFT
Since when does being a gay man make one ineligible to be orthodox? Just curious. I know all about the abomination mentioned in Leviticus, thanks. But don't you think that me being a gay man and how that relates to my religious practice is a discussion left to be held between me and my Rabbi? I would think so.

If it was just your "personal life" than it would be between you and your Rabbi, but you didn't leave it at that. Instead you tried to market yourself as an Orthodox Jew on a political level. It's cynical, it's hypocritical and now you got caught at it.

Being in a gay marriage makes you ineligible to claim to be an observant Orthodox Jew. Just as being married makes you ineligible to claim to be a Catholic Priest. Let alone to head Catholic Priests for Ron Paul.  When you pull a stupid fraud like that, all you manage to accomplish is to embarrass yourself and whatever candidate you're trying to shill for.

So far there's ample evidence that you were a Pagan Minister and a Unitarian. There's no evidence at all that you're an Orthodox Jew and a preponderance of evidence that you lied and that you're still lying. You've given two different versions so far of when you decided to become observant. There's multiple versions of the time when you stopped being Pagan. Combine that with multiple ID's, including a Cherokee one and joining Mormon meetup groups and you have less than zero credibility.

If I tried to work for a political campaign based on my religion, people would a right to challenge my observance. Your "religion" didn't become an issue until you cynically decided to pretend to be an Orthodox Jew in order to promote a political candidate. And that was when it became an issue and when you got caught. You can't try to market yourself as an Orthodox Jew to the press and then suddenly cry that your religion is a personal issue between you and your Rabbi. It's hypocrisy and it doesn't work that way.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:24 AM NHFT
Instead you tried to market yourself as an Orthodox Jew on a political level. It's cynical, it's hypocritical and now you got caught at it.

Being in a gay marriage makes you ineligible to claim to be an observant Orthodox Jew. Just as being married makes you ineligible to claim to be a Catholic Priest. Let alone to head Catholic Priests for Ron Paul.  When you pull a stupid fraud like that, all you manage to accomplish is to embarrass yourself and whatever candidate you're trying to shill for.

So far there's ample evidence that you were a Pagan Minister and a Unitarian. There's no evidence at all that you're an Orthodox Jew and a preponderance of evidence that you lied and that you're still lying. You've given two different versions so far of when you decided to become observant. There's multiple versions of the time when you stopped being Pagan. Combine that with multiple ID's, including a Cherokee one and joining Mormon meetup groups and you have less than zero credibility.

If I tried to work for a political campaign based on my religion, people would a right to challenge my observance. Your "religion" didn't become an issue until you cynically decided to pretend to be an Orthodox Jew in order to promote a political candidate. And that was when it became an issue and when you got caught. You can't try to market yourself as an Orthodox Jew to the press and then suddenly cry that your religion is a personal issue between you and your Rabbi. It's hypocrisy and it doesn't work that way.

We don't need you here trashing gays or anyone else that supports RP.  What's it to you what he is? His mother is Jewish, that makes him Jewish.
The only reason it matters to you is you are looking for something, ANYTHING, to smear RP, who has nothing to do with this.
I suggest you get lost, and fast...

Quote from: CNHT on November 20, 2007, 12:26 AM NHFT
What's it to you what he is? His mother is Jewish, that makes him Jewish.

Repetition #2 - He claimed to be an observant ORTHODOX JEW in media interviews. Not just a Jew.

Being an Orthodox Jew requires observing religious law. It's like claiming to be a married priest.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:24 AM NHFT

Quote from: J.P. on November 19, 2007, 11:12 PM NHFT
Since when does being a gay man make one ineligible to be orthodox? Just curious. I know all about the abomination mentioned in Leviticus, thanks. But don't you think that me being a gay man and how that relates to my religious practice is a discussion left to be held between me and my Rabbi? I would think so.

If it was just your "personal life" than it would be between you and your Rabbi, but you didn't leave it at that. Instead you tried to market yourself as an Orthodox Jew on a political level. It's cynical, it's hypocritical and now you got caught at it.

Being in a gay marriage makes you ineligible to claim to be an observant Orthodox Jew. Just as being married makes you ineligible to claim to be a Catholic Priest. Let alone to head Catholic Priests for Ron Paul.  When you pull a stupid fraud like that, all you manage to accomplish is to embarrass yourself and whatever candidate you're trying to shill for.

So far there's ample evidence that you were a Pagan Minister and a Unitarian. There's no evidence at all that you're an Orthodox Jew and a preponderance of evidence that you lied and that you're still lying. You've given two different versions so far of when you decided to become observant. There's multiple versions of the time when you stopped being Pagan. Combine that with multiple ID's, including a Cherokee one and joining Mormon meetup groups and you have less than zero credibility.

If I tried to work for a political campaign based on my religion, people would a right to challenge my observance. Your "religion" didn't become an issue until you cynically decided to pretend to be an Orthodox Jew in order to promote a political candidate. And that was when it became an issue and when you got caught. You can't try to market yourself as an Orthodox Jew to the press and then suddenly cry that your religion is a personal issue between you and your Rabbi. It's hypocrisy and it doesn't work that way.

Never said my religion was between me and my Rabbi but rather how my being gay relates to my religion. But since you are attacking me on this point, let me be clear that as far as I know you are neither orthodox nor a Rabbi making you ineligible to make a ruling as to whether or not I can claim orthodoxy or observant status. But seeing as my Rabbi frequently makes a point of reaching out to and including me in the minyan at shul, I think I'll trust his validation of my observance, thanks.

Jim,

I'm sure you'll make a great politician, insofar as you can lie with a straight face and argue the definition of "Is" or "Orthodox Jew" until the cows come home. I don't plan to make a hobby of restating the obvious so this will be my last reply to you, especially since this isn't my computer or a decent hour.

You created a political organization and very calculatedly tried to promote yourself as an Orthodox Jew. You were talking about being a Churchgoing Unitarian as recently as a few months ago. You erased your website when Free Republic first caught you, but you didn't erase nearly enough. Now there are backups of everything. You're still in a gay marriage. What all of that adds up to is you lied to the JTA intern and it backfired.

None of this would have been an issue except that you cynically tried to exploit your claim to being an Orthodox Jew in a political campaign. You should have stuck to Cherokee or Quaker. Or maybe you can become the first Orthodox Cherokee Quaker and corner the market on Ward Churchill style fraudulent tokenism.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:43 AM NHFT
this will be my last reply to you

Thank G-d.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:43 AM NHFT
None of this would have been an issue except that you cynically tried to exploit your claim to being an Orthodox Jew in a political campaign. You should have stuck to Cherokee or Quaker. Or maybe you can become the first Orthodox Cherokee Quaker and corner the market on Ward Churchill style fraudulent tokenism.

No, none of this would be an issue to anyone, except to YOU, and that's only because you are looking to do harm to a candidate, but guess what? NO ONE CARES.

If you have an issue with this person's religion, I'd say that's none of your business either. Go air your anti-semitic and anti-gay attacks elsewhere.
Furthermore, if someone wants to call themself a virgin whore they are free to do so. And once again it should be no concern of yours.
You do not know this person, you have no interaction with him except to express disapproval of his religious beliefs as you see them.
It's none of your business.

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:24 AM NHFT
... Being in a gay marriage ...

For someone so insistent on proper terminology, you should know that there's no such thing as "gay marriage" in New Hampshire. There aren't even such things as "civil unions" until next year.

You (shock) might not have all the information, J'raxis.  JP might have gotten married in Massachusetts.  Besides, he refers to himself as married and with a husband, I think it's respectful to use the same terminology.

I can't believe whether or not JP is Orthodox or not is the question now being discussed here.  Can't we leave that to the scholars and Rabbis?  There are more important things about which to whine and debate endlessly :)

Faber it's quite simple: The troll SK wishes to cast aspersions on JP's jewishness so as to somehow prove that RP has no jewish support.

Right there the whole premise falls through because there are plenty of others who would pass SK's litmus test.

It's more of an attack on RP than on JP.

Bottom line is, it proves nothing, or least nothing that SK set out to prove.

SK has been exposed -- so he should move on..

I'm just getting to this tread rather late, and long after it has begun to spin . . .
Without regard to where it is going, you were right to turn on the light Sandy.  Thank you for doing so.

Not sure if I'll care to add anything further.

SK moderates comments to his blog, and engages in mutual masturdebating with his admirers, while allowing opposing comments that he thinks he can counter. (He fails, but that's what happens when you live in a circle-jerk of mutual admiration.)

Let me say this: I've been as critical of JP as anyone has, but he has apparently made a good effort to repay his debts. JP is showing his face in places where he's held in contempt, and offering apologies that seem sincere. Only time will tell, but he's offering apologies and declining to offer excuses. That in itself is a 180 from past behavior.

I'm not in the least concerned with this anti-Ron Paul blogger who attacks JP as as a surrogate for RP. Shake the dust from your feet, and let him go back to his mutual admiration society.

Kevin

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:43 AM NHFT


I'm sure you'll make a great politician,

No. Too inconsistent. 

Quote from: Lloyd  Danforth on November 20, 2007, 06:11 AM NHFT

Quote from: sultan knish on November 20, 2007, 12:43 AM NHFT


I'm sure you'll make a great politician,

No. Too inconsistent. 

Definitely a politician nontheless.   :o

Not Slick enough

Quote from: John on November 20, 2007, 07:10 AM NHFTDefinitely a politician nontheless.   :o

But I repeat myself.

Quote from: CNHT on November 20, 2007, 02:12 AM NHFTFaber it's quite simple: The troll SK wishes to cast aspersions on JP's jewishness so as to somehow prove that RP has no jewish support.

Speaking as someone with a Jewish mother - who is, therefore, according to Judaism, a Jew - I'll say that Dr. Paul has Jewish support.

Joe

Quote from: Faber on November 20, 2007, 02:06 AM NHFT
You (shock) might not have all the information, J'raxis.  JP might have gotten married in Massachusetts.

Hah! You're both wrong. You're presuming the state, or a state, is the decider of whether two people are "married" or not.
8)

Quote from: Faber on November 20, 2007, 02:06 AM NHFT
You (shock) might not have all the information, J'raxis.  JP might have gotten married in Massachusetts. 

Which, due to the "Defense" of Marriage Act, would not be recognized in New Hampshire.

Quote from: Faber on November 20, 2007, 02:06 AM NHFT
Besides, he refers to himself as married and with a husband, I think it's respectful to use the same terminology.

I was trying to point out to the troll his own hypocrisy—whining about someone else's misuse of terminology ("Orthodox") while doing it himself ("gay marriage")—not attack J.P.

Whenever I hear this discussion about differences between and within religions, I remember the introduction in Brandon's 'Psycology Of self Esteem' where he points out the that the Paucity of a area of study is in direct relation to it's number of schools.

having JP try to defend himself on this thread is really funny ... I might have to unignore him just for the comic relief

Quote from: Russell Kanning on November 20, 2007, 07:53 PM NHFTreally funny ... comic relief

:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :dontknow: :Dollar_-_Silver: :Bolt:

 :bandaid: :bandaid: :bandaid: :bandaid: :bandaid: :bandaid:

updates on Jim:

http://casarjianperry.com/ (http://casarjianperry.com/)
http://www.reason.com/news/show/126633.html (http://www.reason.com/news/show/126633.html)

Wow.  Someone I don't even know had emailed me a while back that he/she thought Jim was BANNED from the LP of Mass.  Guess not!

I didn't want to appear to be beating a dead horse  :deadhorse: , but since Jim is apparently still alive and well in the libertarian/Libertarian community, here's an update on my personal experiences with him (FYI, several people contacted me via both email and telephone relating horror stories of their own, but I will leave it to them to go public or not as they see fit):

[email from myself to rest of LPNH Executive Committee on 2/11/2008]

Quote
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water....

St. Anselm's left a frustrated voicemail message on our 800# today.  Apparently, at the Hillsborough County LP meeting that Jim ... held at St. Anselm's several months ago, Jim ordered $153.50 worth of food.  Of course, he never paid for it.  Or mentioned it to me.  After mailing Jim numerous invoices, to multiple addresses, some of which were returned, St. A's called us.  I already told them we will pay the bill promptly (since it would be nice to be able to use their beautiful FREE venue again in the future!!). But as far as I know, Jim was never authorized to make this charge in the name of the LPNH...

I sent Jim a snail-mail letter to a mailing address provided by him at the time, requesting that he reimburse the LPNH for this expense he incurred without authorization and then skipped town on, which we covered on his behalf.  Never received a response.

Can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Update:  JP is now calling himself Jim Reef.  He's having a 25th birthday party in Billerica, to which he is selling tickets, all proceeds of which will go to charity.  "Even if you can't come, buy a ticket! It is for two great causes!!"  "The proceeds for the fundraiser will be split 50/50 between First Parish Church in Billerica and The Civil Rights March for LGBT Equality."  (Does this mean he unconverted from Judaism?)

I heard this from one of the many people from whom he "borrowed" money and never repaid it; she's attending the party.   :huh:

I hope she is attending to 'out' him............as a crook.

mmaybe he is the first parrish church and the organizer for the lgbt and fake jewish mennonite parade

Does tis mean he has formally joined the free lunch project????? 
I wonder.......
Did he pay for the tickets.
How much money will he take in?
How much will the two organizations actually receive?

I do hope she outs him.
Kate

Can we get a picture of this guy posted? Don't recall what he looks like, prob. don't know him. In my belief civil action against fraud is legit govt. and maybe should be sought. Sounds like a good case. PL

(http://www.nhunderground.com/wiki/show_image.php?id=109&scalesize=0&nocount=y)

Here's a pic with Russell.  Wow, look how chunky Russell used to be!

I was wondering who the woman with Jim was.

Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on November 28, 2009, 06:22 AM NHFT
I was wondering who the woman with Jim was.

:D