Updated 11/8/08:
The Store n' Ignore Disaster Box is essensially a container full of items which
1) Have an indefinite shelf life
2) Would likely run low during the second week of a major disaster
3) Can easily be used or re-sold even if there *isn't* a disaster
The contents run the gamut from wheat berries to space blankets. But the box is no cure-all; to be that it would require perishables. This box focuses on being useful almost regardless of how long it sits there, regardless of whether there's a disaster. It is a diversified store of value.
I've spent some months scouring e-bay and discount stores for bargains. So I can sell you the items at roughly the price *you* would pay if you spent hours finding and collecting them yourself. However you should know before ordering that it takes me a while to put one of these together and get it to you at such low cost. I cannot yet mail or deliver it. You'll have to get it from me at a mutually attended New Hampshire event.
Here is a video of the first box being put together:
NH: Ridley's "Store n' Ignore Disaster Boxes" for sale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB-1v2Z0_nc#)
Here is the manifest and price for that box:
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12492.msg268813#msg268813 (http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12492.msg268813#msg268813)
And here are the items usually available for placement in *your* box.
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12492.msg268816#msg268816 (http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12492.msg268816#msg268816)
Gimme a shout if and when you would like to purchase one, tell me what your parameters are or just turn me loose to build one for you using my best judgment.
To buy a "Store n' Ignore Disaster Box," just gimme a shout.
Dave Ridley
RidleyReport
at live period com
Now...below this text is the original message which brought the idea under discussion. If you have ideas for improvement...simply post a reply!
-----
12/07
<<<< I'd like input from you guys before I get too deep into this project...
I am thinking of designing and producing a low-cost disaster kit primarily for use *after* the first week of a catastrophe. It would also be designed so that every item had an indefinite shelf life. Its contents would be barter-friendly consumables you could make easy use of with or without an emergency, at a better price than you would usually find them at the store
In other words, a safe microinvestment.
Here's a list of items I might include...but mainly I am wanting to know how much interest there is in something like this. If interest is limited , I may not do much. However if interest is high enough, that would give me an excuse to start collecting a lot more survival friendly stuff and turning this kit, or something similar, into reality.
Chlorine Water treatment tabs - plus printed instructions on how to use them, even in cloudy water.
http://www.lesliespool.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=9151&iMainCat=14&iSubCat=104&iProductID=9151&tabID=3 (http://www.lesliespool.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=9151&iMainCat=14&iSubCat=104&iProductID=9151&tabID=3)
There is apparently debate regarding the indefinite status of this item's shelf life.
Alum - for de-clouding water and making it easier to treat with Chlorine. I'm uncertain regarding the indefinite status of this item's shelf life.
Ammo - Something the Red Cross and Wal Mart kits never get around to including...fortunately it is still legal to sell without bureaucratic obstacles. Ammunition historically becomes a currency in protracted crises.
Candles -
Laptop Friendly Disaster Survival Library - this is a keyword searchable disaster survival document on CD; compiled by me but written by the U.S. Army and the Red Cross.
Matches - Matches became a currency in Bosnia during the 1990s conflict. To limit fire hazard issues, I could store them in sealed glass jars?
Sterno - good for cooking indoors without electricity
kleenex - ideally, I should leave you a room full, but this will have to do.
Lamp Oil - apparently odorless mineral spirits are better. u get them at home depot.
honey - will crystalize eventually but can be reclaimed by _____
salt - the world's ancient currency. Became very valuable in central Bosnia during the war.
Wheat - plus printed instructions on how to sprout it. This will keep you eating veggies for another week or two.
See thru trash bags - double as low-budget greenhouse device in the sun. Useful for all kinds of things and rarely in plentiful supply.
Baggies
Tampons - barter friendly even if you don't use them.
Ideally the biggest advantage of buying these things in this disaster kit form, might be that they are actually cheaper to own that way. I already know how to find things really cheap around here and I'm just getting started... but my first step would be to find the lowest possible prices on items like these.
Your thoughts? >>>
Some of those items might be a wee bit tricky to tackle based on your potential customers (ammo being the biggie), and if possible, the value of the data CD, in my opinion, would be tremendously increased if it is formatted in a way to facilitate printing, since not everyone has a charged laptop ready at all times. I'm not certain about this, but some trashbags, I'm told, contain undesirable coatings or other characteristics which greatly reduce their utility in the realm of indefinite storage and storage of anything intended for human consumption.
As for my interest, personally, I already have pretty much everything on your current list, and I'm on the other side of the country. However, depending on what sort of packaging, customization, and shipping ideas and options are available, though, especially for the truly indefinite-storage items, I may well be interested in picking up a few for myself and others.
Glad brand trash bags are food grade. I don't know if they have clear plastic ones.
I would add coffee filters for water treatment. They can remove some of the grit before you filter or treat water.
Iodine for water treatment. It may have a longer shelf life to supplement the chlorine tablets.
Thick warm socks
hand warmers
candle wicks, the kind you can get at the craft store with the wire core. You can use with any glass jar to make an oil lamp. Also some wire to make a stand to support the candle wick. Bill and I have done this and it works quite well. Any vegetable oil will work in it.
I would do a roll of toilet paper instead of kleenex. More tissue and you could squish it flat to reduce space.
Baggies-I would do gallon sized freezer weight bags.
Maybe some Mountain House freeze dried food in pouches. They last up to 7 years. and just need water.
I would also include directions and some supplies to sprout the wheat in the kit.
Dave if selling the kits doesn't draw enough interest to make it worth your while I would love to start a "co-op" style buying plan. One person finds a deal on a good supply of something useful and lets other people pitch in and divide the goods. This way we have a pool of people looking for stuff and we can take advantage of bulk purchasing. Also it isn't the same person ordering stuff and having it shipped. Members could join by organizing a purchase of an item. Toowm did this with a silver purchase and I loved it.
Um, I posted on this thread somewhere already...maybe another forum...I'm lost. :(
Anyway, I would be interested in such a kit. A self powered/hand-crank weather radio would be nice.
What about winter car kits for new folks?
No you are not lost. Dada posted this in Porcupine trading also.
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12491.0
Quote from: porcupine kate on December 16, 2007, 09:47 AM NHFT
No you are not lost. Dada posted this in Porcupine trading also.
Oh good, I'm not crazy after all. :P
Somebody want to merge these?
Quote from: Puke on December 16, 2007, 01:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: porcupine kate on December 16, 2007, 09:47 AM NHFT
No you are not lost. Dada posted this in Porcupine trading also.
Oh good, I'm not crazy after all. :P
That doesn't necessarily follow :P
These kits are incomplete , there no Beer in them.
Quote from: Pat K on December 17, 2007, 02:12 PM NHFT
These kits are incomplete , there no Beer in them.
The comes with malt, hops, and yeast. Some assembly required.
in terms of bang for the buck, what are some of the best survival manuals to be included with a kit?
My top candidate right now is the U.S. army survival manual, FM 21-76
The runner up would be one of the Tom Brown books - i'm calling them runners-up mainly because they seem to be 60 percent more expensive than the Army manual.
what do you think are good books for this purpose?
Probably what would happen is I would end up with various different books and no one book would be in every kit.
Ideally I would find these kinds of books lying around at some garage sale but more likely I"d have to order on ebay.
I'd be interested. Alum also has a number of other uses, in tanning, fire proofing, other things I can't remember that I learned from the "Dangerous Book for Boys"
Quote from: Eli on December 19, 2007, 11:53 AM NHFT
I'd be interested. Alum also has a number of other uses, in tanning, fire proofing, other things I can't remember that I learned from the "Dangerous Book for Boys"
I love that book!! My brother bought a copy for my son and he is always telling me things that he learned from the Dangerous Book for Boys! What a treasure trove of information. :)
Don't forget "The Daring Book for Girls."
Quote from: Pat McCotter on December 19, 2007, 01:46 PM NHFT
Don't forget "The Daring Book for Girls."
I was just trying to learn to whistle with two fingers from that book, but couldn't quite get it. :-\
FM 21-10 Field Hygiene and Sanitation is a good source of how to crap in the woods.
I'm sure there are probably better books out there about survival sanitation. The Army manuals are more for an Army style survival situation, obviously.
I don't have an E-tool or a water buffalo any more, so the information about that is rather useless.
Quote from: Puke on December 19, 2007, 03:32 PM NHFT
FM 21-10 Field Hygiene and Sanitation is a good source of how to crap in the woods.
Err....someone needs a manual for this??
Quote from: Kat Kanning on December 19, 2007, 04:23 PM NHFT
Quote from: Puke on December 19, 2007, 03:32 PM NHFT
FM 21-10 Field Hygiene and Sanitation is a good source of how to crap in the woods.
Err....someone needs a manual for this??
The military does and you have to fill out a form
every time in triplicate. ;D
Quote from: DadaOrwell on December 19, 2007, 10:25 AM NHFT
My top candidate right now is the U.S. army survival manual, FM 21-76
They renumbered this manual, to 3-05.70 (http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-05-70.pdf). That's why you couldn't find a more recent one. Of course since it's downloadable...
Quote from: Kat Kanning on December 19, 2007, 04:23 PM NHFT
Quote from: Puke on December 19, 2007, 03:32 PM NHFT
FM 21-10 Field Hygiene and Sanitation is a good source of how to crap in the woods.
Err....someone needs a manual for this??
The Army does. And this particular manual (https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/6656-1/fm/21-10/fm21-10.pdf) is 161 pages! Compare that to this civilian guide (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php) to crapping in the woods.
Quote from: Pat K on December 19, 2007, 04:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on December 19, 2007, 04:23 PM NHFT
Quote from: Puke on December 19, 2007, 03:32 PM NHFT
FM 21-10 Field Hygiene and Sanitation is a good source of how to crap in the woods.
Err....someone needs a manual for this??
The military does and you have to fill out a form
every time in triplicate. ;D
Well, at least you have something to wipe with.
The Army manual also deals with decontaminating water, testing water, building latrines for whole companies of men, how to fill out paper-work, field kitchens, etc.
That's why I mentioned it isn't really a survival guide for one to two people.
Ok question: do you guys think clear trash bags or black...would be best for raising the temperature of things inside the bag while in sunlight?
does the color of the bag, or lack there of , have any implications for storing food in the bag? thanks kate for the note about food grade-ability.
I guess ideally i'm thinking a mix of bag sizes and uses... but certainly a bag that is good for slightly heating things...would be helpful as would a food-containable bag.
puke wrote:
<<
One thing to note is that chlorine and iodine tablets corode everything around them, even when inside a container.
So, would it be better to have a modern filtration thingy, or are those limited in life-span??>>
most filters claim indef. life span if not used, but they're expensive. my favorite is the "base camp" by katadyn . its filters run arund 35 bucks i think but i havn'et priced 'em recently. i have one but since i tested the filter it's expired and i have to buy another...
putting replacement filters in the kit would be problematic since who knows what kind of replacement filter a person might need?
however selling base camps separately might be useful. i have a portable i like too but haven't tested it...just own it.
I figured there must be some part that has to replaced. A bottle of iodine tablets would last longer and take up far less space and weight in a "grab and go" situation.
Chlorine Water treatment tabs - plus printed instructions on how to use them, even in cloudy water.
The stability of 1,3,5-trichloro-s-triazinetrione (pool chlorine), Halzone, Chloramine-T, and any of the other water-treatment chemicals is directly related to the conditions under which you store them. Moisture will cause them to hydrolyze into the parent organic compound and hypochlorous acid. Heat and light generally don't do nice things to reactive chemicals with UV-absorbing aromatic rings or carbonyl groups. There is also the issue of degrading a plastic container, a plastic cap, or the cap liner.
Iodine in pre-weighed portions in sealed glass ampules is the way to go. Bulk iodine can be used by intelligent folks with absolute safety, it provides the essential micronutrient iodide to the body for healthy thyroid function, and it lasts basically forever as long as the container is hermetically sealed to stop loss from sublimation. It's useful for wound sterilization. It can also be employed for other purposes that I won't go into here.
IODINE
You might also consider iodine for water purification. Or iodine.
Alum - for de-clouding water and making it easier to treat with Chlorine. I'm uncertain regarding the indefinite status of this item's shelf life.
Potassium aluminum sulfate is cheap, easily made, and lasts an eternity.
Candles -
Lamp Oil - apparently odorless mineral spirits are better. u get them at home depot.
Get a copy of Cresson H. Kearny's Nuclear War Survival Skills (NWSS). Free online: http://www.oism.org/nwss/
You can make servicable lamps with cooking oil and wicks. The oil can be used for food if needed, and the wicking can be used as cord.
Think multi-purpose and redundancy.
Matches - Matches became a currency in Bosnia during the 1990s conflict. To limit fire hazard issues, I could store them in sealed glass jars?
Matches suck. Go with a good quality wind-proof refillable butane lighter and a can of butane.
Sterno - good for cooking indoors without electricity
Not a bad idea for a simple little kit. Almost as important as the Sterno itself would be to teach people how to use drastically limited heat and fuel sources with the utmost efficiency. NWSS has some excellent instructions about food, nutrition, and cooking with VERY low fuel consumption. Really.
I would prefer an MSR Dragonfly stove with a supply of Coleman white gas. The Dragonfly will burn white gas, diesel, or Bacardi 151 if it got down to that. Sterno is basically alcohol gelled with calcium acetate. I'm a big fan of keeping useful chemicals separate until you need to mix them for something specific. Simple instructions for making gelled fuel from scratch can be found at: http://zenstoves.net/Sterno.htm Supply an empty can and pre-measured packets of calcium acetate, along with a bottle of ethanol. The can can be used by itself, and the ethanol can be used for pre-dissolving iodine for water treatment, cleaning wounds, etc.
Multi-purpose. Redundancy.
A clever Porc could use the ethanol and waste fat/oil to make crude biodiesel for use in the Dragonfly. 8)
kleenex - ideally, I should leave you a room full, but this will have to do.
Kate had an excellent suggestion about TP, though I would go one step further and supply a durable cleaning cloth - the kind you can wash, wring out, and re-use. Paper products are rapidly consumed, whereas these could be used for washcloths, wound dressings (esp. if lightly treated with a solution of iodine in ethanol ;) ), coarse water filters, etc.
honey - will crystalize eventually but can be reclaimed by _____
An excellent idea. Crystallize has 2 L's, and honey can be re-liquefied by gentle heating in warm/hot water. Tastes good, smells good, good for morale, has antiseptic qualities for dressing wounds, etc.
salt - the world's ancient currency. Became very valuable in central Bosnia during the war.
Good idea. If you provide iodine, don't use iodized salt. First, because any iodine used for water treatment or wounds will be absorbed and far exceed the microscopic nutritional requirement, TOO much iodide can have the paradoxical effect of decreasing thyroid activity (which is why they whallop you with potassium iodide (KI) tablets in the event of a meltdown/fallout - to shut down thyroidal iodide uptake and stop your thyroid from irreversibly absorbing radioactive iodide which will begin to kill the gland), and UN-iodized salt is what you want for pickling and food preservation. You may also consider adding potassium chloride salt as a nutritional supplement.
Wheat - plus printed instructions on how to sprout it. This will keep you eating veggies for another week or two.
NWSS: wheat berries are useless and problematic as food if not thoroughly pulverized into flour. You don't digest it well, it passes into your intestines un-utilized, the starch absorbs water and gives you diarrhea, and your intestinal flora metabolize it into gas. The last thing you want people crammed together in a survival situation to have to deal with is a line for the facilities, gas, morale-killing diarrhea and gas cramps, and the masking of any real health problems by self-induced GI upset. Besides, it's surprising how many people exhibit a wheat allergy to some degree or another.
I would include a mill of some sort, and instructions about grinding and cooking wheat.
I'd also investigate supplying grains other than wheat.
See thru trash bags - double as low-budget greenhouse device in the sun. Useful for all kinds of things and rarely in plentiful supply.
Baggies
Everything in the kit should be in a separate zip-lock bag, and the entire kit should be supplied in a waterproof (not simply water-resistant) container. Something like an ammo box or a food-grade 5-gallon bucket. Nest a cooking pot with a lid in the bucket.
Vitamins and food supplements. Ascorbic acid, niacin, B12, and others come immediately to mind.
Pain-relievers/fever reducers. You're going to be hurting from injury or unaccustomed physical activity, and have increased labor demands.
There's a thousand items I can think of that have been supplied with survival kits, discussed ad-infinitum on WTSHTF forums, etc. The best thing would be to have a checklist with references to pages in a manual that explains why these items are important and how to use them.
Most books I've seen are hard to use because there is too much detail all at once, and most checklists don't have enough info. I'd suggest constructing a 3-tiered manual.
First, a checklist. Subdivide it into what comes with the supplied kit (so that items used in non-emergencies [you know it will happen] can be replaced, and a list of things to supplement the kit (salt, fuel/food oil, newspaper, etc). Add a short tag-line for each item that briefly describes what it could be used for.
Rate the items into a hierarchy of usefulness/multi-purposeness.
Example: [ X ] Iodine.
Water-purification, antiseptic, wound-dressing, nutrition, radiation, other.
Second, have a quickie, here's-how-you-do-it-right-here-and-now section so that the dehydrated guy with the head wound in a chaotic situation and limited light can get down to the nitty gritty of purifying the 5-gallons of water without giving everyone iodine poisoning.
Large print. Warnings. Step-by-step. Clear line-drawings.
Third, a more detailed section of the book with details, details, details. For pre-disaster home study; discussion of useful substitutes, modifications, and completely different methods; to provide a comprehensive list of cheap and useful items to have on hand as well as what common, everyday items can be used for with a little ingenuity. Suburbanites taken by surprise by a disaster are going to need every ounce of help they can get. A ridiculously thorough cross-indexed index complete with synonyms for everything you might want to look up would be a huge bonus for people having a stress-induced mental block.
Useful items to include/suggest:
KNIFE. Large heavy knives/machetes can be used as makeshift hatchets.
Good quality pliers. Useful, versatile, can replace/be redundant with wrench, tweezers, etc.
Twine, rope, wire. Binding, wicking, electrical repair, manufacturing other items, etc.
Screws, screwdriver. Flat-bladed screwdrivers can be used as makeshift prybars, chisels, and can-openers.
Cyanoacrylate (Krazy) glue. Also useful for wounds - "bonds skin INSTANTLY"
Can opener.
Heavy duty scissors or metal shears. Provides leverage for heavy cutting, useful for cans.
Hatchet/axe. For bigger jobs than knife, back end can be used as hammer.
Newspaper. Fuel, insulation, covering, wrapping, absorbing spills, privacy, entertainment, etc.
Cloth, sheets. Bedding, clothing, insulation, wrapping, carrying, storage, furniture, wounds, etc.
Wax, paraffin. Fuel, sealing, waterproofing, molding/casting, etc.
These are just a few off-the-cuff ideas.
Maybe expand the kit idea to include classes, a kit-building business, and a supplemental program to the NH State Guard Study Group. (PLEASE sign up for this!)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewHampshireStateGuardStudyGroup/
It just occurred to me that it would be useful to have people sign on to be community activists and store larger quantities of disaster-preparedness items, much in the same way that Defender of Liberty suggested that people form a network for the Porc food bank.
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=10750.msg215498#msg215498
It would be much more cost-effective to buy things like salt and ascorbic acid in commodity-chemical or vet-supply quantities, and have them stored in a dry shed/garage/basement/attic so that they can contribute to disaster relief.
Apartment dwellers, and new incoming Porcs are likely to be hit the hardest due to space, income, and other limitations.
Nice idea, Baldie :D
re-selling iodine over 2% tincture or in solid form is illegal and carries up to a ten year penalty.
that's what's forced me toward chlorine. I own a great iodine water kit...and prefer it over chlorine...but cant sell it legally.
i like the multi-use idea...the edible oil for candles sounds cool.
i'm worried about making the kit too labor intensive but making candles is probably easy.
wheat is for sprouting, not eating as-is. in some ways it is the perfect food in some ways its not...but the key thing is its indefinite shelf life. I agree it would be nice to be able to grind the sprouts...they are perfectly edible and nutritious as is but grinding them probably makes them absorb better. is there a cheap way to grind them, which I could include?
i've used a hand grinder it seems awful labor intensive. i blend the sprouts sometimes to increase absorbtion
keep the ideas coming, tho i can't incorporate them all i can incorporate some.
Iodine: Slight water solubility (0.03 g/100 g water @ 20C).
Percent is g/100 mL, so that's 0.03% at saturation in water.
So in a way, a 2% tincture is 66.7 times more concentrated than it needs to be.
If you calculate the concentrations typically needed for medicine, nutrition, or water sterilization, coupled with the "how much am I really gonna use in my lifetime" factor, a small well-sealed bottle of 2% tincture ought to be just fine.
Also keep in mind that converting any iodide salt into iodine borders on effortless, and I didn't see anything about selling someone a pound of potassium iodide.
Having a companion container of chlorine-based water purifier isn't a bad idea, but get iodine or iodide or iodate into the kit somehow.
The food oil isn't exactly used to make candles - it used to make an oil lamp.
See attached image.
Wheat sprouts are a good idea, they will act as a source of Vitamin C.
Barley and sprouted beans can also be used.
Though it's a Hell of a lot of work compared to just cooking and eating the wheat and supplying a small jar of pure crystalline ascorbic acid. One level teaspoonful is 160 days worth.
Add sugar, nonfat dry milk, powdered egg white, beef jerky, chocolate, and red beans. Maybe a few canned meat or fish items to give people the basic idea.
Chewing gum, playing cards, cigarettes, anything to help get people through a trying time and decrease irritability and social friction.
Quote from: Bald Eagle on December 21, 2007, 04:37 PM NHFT
Chewing gum, playing cards, cigarettes, anything to help get people through a trying time and decrease irritability and social friction.
I'm guessing a guy who won't risk a 2% iodine bust isn't going to include a couple of joints
Quote from: DadaOrwell on December 20, 2007, 11:47 PM NHFT
re-selling iodine over 2% tincture or in solid form is illegal and carries up to a ten year penalty.
If you dilute whatever you have down to 2% so you can sell it, wouldn't it be relatively easy for the purchaser to just re-concentrate it afterward?
Quote from: Bald Eagle on December 20, 2007, 11:24 AM NHFT
It just occurred to me that it would be useful to have people sign on to be community activists and store larger quantities of disaster-preparedness items, much in the same way that Defender of Liberty suggested that people form a network for the Porc food bank.
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=10750.msg215498#msg215498
It would be much more cost-effective to buy things like salt and ascorbic acid in commodity-chemical or vet-supply quantities, and have them stored in a dry shed/garage/basement/attic so that they can contribute to disaster relief.
Apartment dwellers, and new incoming Porcs are likely to be hit the hardest due to space, income, and other limitations.
I agree with buying it in large quantities, but then storing it all in one place, or with one person responsible for it, is a bad idea. Putting all of your eggs in one basket, so to speak...
Quote from: Kat Kanning on December 19, 2007, 01:54 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat McCotter on December 19, 2007, 01:46 PM NHFT
Don't forget "The Daring Book for Girls."
I was just trying to learn to whistle with two fingers from that book, but couldn't quite get it. :-\
Don't be discouraged; keep practicing!
Before I finally learned how to whistle properly (sans fingers, in my case) I spent two weeks making
constant "pppfffffbbbbbbtttbbpppt!" noises around my parents' house after I'd stopped riding my bicycle around town to talk to a strange-looking man who was hanging around outside the beauty school near the old railroad tracks... In hindsight, perhaps not the wisest decision - but I can whistle!
I'm suprised my parents are still (mostly) sane.
LOL :) Will keep working on it.
Reminds me of the story when I was a kid and my friend and I found a dead body in an old car by the railroad tracks. Scared the heck outta me. But then when we came back with adults, it was just some drunk relative of my friend.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on December 21, 2007, 09:50 PM NHFT
I agree with buying it in large quantities, but then storing it all in one place, or with one person responsible for it, is a bad idea. Putting all of your eggs in one basket, so to speak...
Well, the idea was to have Dave sell the basic kits, and have a community of SHTF activists store bulk items as a backup. Everyone gets their own egg, but then we have stores - in the real sense of the word - that carry baskets of eggs. That way the stores of goods are in the hands of porcs and not under the control of someone who will be easily subjected to government rules or threats of force.
There are often copies of Armarego & Perrin's
Purification of Laboratory Chemicals available on Ebay or advertised in places like sci.chem. I would recommend that people buy as many copies of that and Vogel's Textbook of Practical Organic Chemistry and its Inorganic Chemistry companion as possible. If TSHTF, we're going to be needing to unformulate useful things from common household items, or make them from dirt. And we're probably not going to have a whole lot of time to figure out how.
Dada your kit also needs
toothbrushes
dental floss and or a dental pick
basking soda.
The backing soda and salt make a pretty good toothpaste substitute for your kit.
sorry for the slow repsonse lately. I am trying to absorb the ideas and fit some of them into what will be the small space...
but don't wait for me to get prepared, I have a lot of steps to perform before I'll have anything ready. your high degree of interest just gives me the mandate to get started and lots of new ideas.
I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but here is a pretty cool video on making a "Metal Candle" http://www.metacafe.com/watch/851881/make_metal_candles/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/851881/make_metal_candles/)
If you include alum, include it in block form. It also makes a handy dandy deodorant.
Most men nowadays are using the latest Gillette or Schick multi-blade monstrosity which has cartridges that have an engineered short life expectancy. Heck, woman like to shave, too. It would probably be handy to offer a SHTF shaving kit which includes a "safety razor" (aka DE or Double Edge razor) and a bunch of blades for it.
Personally I went one step beyond that and I'm now shaving with a straight razor. No need to ever replace the blade (the one I've got is a hundred years old or so and doing well). I did this in part because now I have one less "consumable" to worry about. I can still look clean shaven months or years after the onset of a long-term major crisis. 8)
A SHTF shaving kit should also have a cheapo boars hair shaving brush ($6 at the local pharmacy) and a puck or two of shaving soap (Williams Mug Soap, $1.50 a puck at the pharmacy or about a buck a puck in case lots). That should be enough shaving gear to last a looong time if you go with the safety razor.
I'll broach the subject of family planning. What happens when a young lady can't get her prescriptions filled anymore? Hope someone has a backup plan.
There are so many consideration for long-term SHTF. Everyone's priorities are going to be different. I'm inclined to believe that anyone who thinks this far ahead would rather put together their own kit than purchase one pre-made. After all, how many people out there in mainstream America are even putting together their 72 hour kits that EVERYONE has been urging them to have?
Bald you mentioned that butane lighters are better than matches. By this do you mean that you can start more fires with less money? Do you mean you can start more fires with less space taken up in the kit? Do you mean that stored butane is less of a fire hazard? Do you mean that it is longer lasting in storage?
what specifically are the advantages of butane over matches?
assuming butane is hands down better than matches I would probably lean toward putting these types of lighters in kits along with an appropriate amount of butane:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Coleman-Disposable-Butane-Lighters-Maroon-Fire-Start_W0QQitemZ110208634185QQihZ001QQcategoryZ16036QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Don't forget the condiments. This is more of a joke:
http://www.allthepages.org/images/blog/badcondiment-lg.jpg
Based on this, you could totally store-and-ignore cheeze wiz, baco bits, salt, aspartame, saccharin, and maraschinos. ;D
Matches get wet, the compound can crumble off the end of the stick, you can only burn them for so long before they burn down to your fingers and you have to light another one and start again.
It's harder to do creative things with matches than with a butane source that you can cahnnel through a tube or a burner, or pre-mix with air before igniting.
Matches aren't wind-shielded and don't burn very hot, plus they smell and you don't want that to build up in an enclosed space while some nimrod is trying to light a fire.
Real, good-quality wind-proof lighters have adequate butane for remaining lit for long periods, have a special coil that keep the flame going even in heavy wind, and can be use to heat things hot enough to solder. They are durable, easy to use, and are odorless. They produce an intense, non-luminous flame that won't attract as much attention from predators as the sudden flare-up from lighting a match.
By all means, include a waterproof container of GOOD QUALITY (test them) waterproof matches, and possibly some of those paraffin-saturated sawdust firestarting sticks.
But I'd feel godlike in comparison if I were supplied with an ass-kicking lighter and a canister of butane to refill it with.
If you wanted to go whole hog, you could include a piece of magnesium metal, and some small containers of glycerin and potassium permanganate, both of which have been sold commercially as fire-starting kits. Scrape off some magnesium shavings to really boost the initial flame produced and jump-start the fire, or drip some glycerin onto a small pile of finely ground KMnO4 to create a small intense flare that leaves behind a hot slag.
Maybe we can set up a small emergency-preparedness seminar at PorCfest and do some demos.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on January 01, 2008, 04:24 PM NHFT
Bald you mentioned that butane lighters are better than matches. By this do you mean that you can start more fires with less money? Do you mean you can start more fires with less space taken up in the kit? Do you mean that stored butane is less of a fire hazard? Do you mean that it is longer lasting in storage?
what specifically are the advantages of butane over matches?
assuming butane is hands down better than matches I would probably lean toward putting these types of lighters in kits along with an appropriate amount of butane:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Coleman-Disposable-Butane-Lighters-Maroon-Fire-Start_W0QQitemZ110208634185QQihZ001QQcategoryZ16036QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Question RE: sterno
I'm thinking of adding sterno to the store and ignore disaster kit.
I'm trying to decide between buying the six hour wick sterno
and the 2 hour wick sterno...
do you guys know if one is superior to the other, if there is a difference in burning temp, etc? looks like the 6 hour wicks cost you roughly 25% less per hour of burning, but the total amount of fuel you get is a lot less per dollar.
Also do you think there is a superior solution to sterno, which should go in the kit instead?
bald thanks for the reply; what do you and others consider the most appropriate lighter to include? what's the best type of butane to include?
For kits, I like the disposable bic lighters. The short-length non-adjustable lighters seem to be more rugged. Obviously their capacity is relatively low but I do like them.
I do have a number of butane lighters. Butane is butane, but as for lighters I keep an unbranded but rugged Chinese-made lighter in my go-bag as well as a Colibri. The Colibri's are expensive but very wind resistant.
sportsmansguide.com, cheaperthandirt.com, and Walmart often offer much lower priced refillable butane lighters that are wind resistant like the Colibri, in a more rugged case, and for much less $$$ than the Colibri. Something like that would definitely be worth checking out.
One of my other favorite sites with good rugged gear for long term kits is http://countycomm.com/
is butane certainly the best fluid to put in a lighter?
Quote from: DadaOrwell on January 11, 2008, 12:46 PM NHFT
is butane certainly the best fluid to put in a lighter?
I think so.
"Lighter fluid" aka the stuff that you put in a zippo stinks really badly and evaporates out of the lighter within 2 or 3 days tops. It's also a lot bulkier to store.
Butane comes in a pressurized can, which can be relatively small in size. Once you put the butane into the lighter, it tends to stay there. It doesn't really have an objectionable aroma (if it did, cigar aficionados wouldn't love those colibri lighters) and it performs well in hot or cold weather. The lack of odor is important for a kit because you don't want everything else in the kit to stink like a zippo lighter. The ability of a butane lighter to "hold its charge" is also important if for nothing else the efficiency of your consumables.
Clearly I haven't used any of these, but something along these lines would probably be good.
The thing to do is buy one, use it a lot in the wind, and for heating things for a long time.
http://www.bugstores.com/shop/WindproofLighters.php
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=210580
Has a compass and little LED light built into it. I've not used the one in this link.
Quote from: yonder on January 11, 2008, 01:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on January 11, 2008, 12:46 PM NHFT
is butane certainly the best fluid to put in a lighter?
I think so.
"Lighter fluid" aka the stuff that you put in a zippo stinks really badly and evaporates out of the lighter within 2 or 3 days tops. It's also a lot bulkier to store.
The downside to butane is that lighters requiring it ONLY burn butane. Producing, capturing, storing, and pressurizing a specific gas is much harder than simply pouring any flammable liquid which will climb a wick into a Zippo.
Lighter fluid may "smell" when a lighter is lit, but so do most things which are lit on fire, be they candles or cancer sticks. A decently-made fluid lighter will keep a charge of fluid for two weeks or so, though if the lighter sees heavy use (mine doesn't), it will of course require a refill sooner.
Obviously, I believe lighter fluid is the better choice, though I see no reason why cheap, disposable butane lighters couldn't also be included, since they essentially store well for a looooong time.
Lastly, a word of advice: do not try to fill a Zippo with butane. Trust me on this.
Quote from: penguins4me on January 12, 2008, 01:57 AM NHFT
Lastly, a word of advice: do not try to fill a Zippo with butane. Trust me on this.
LMAO... that must fall into "DAMHIKT" territory.
As you noted, Zippos, despite their limitations, are happy with any flammable liquid that can be sucked up a wick and ignited by a steel-on-flint spark. Generations of military veterans can attest to refueling their Zippos using gasoline, diesel, avgas, kerosene, various grades of JP, etc.
As a Sterno alternative, I would suggest something I learned while earning a Cub Scout badge eons ago: tightly rolled corrugated cardboard stuffed into a tuna tin, and soaked in melted paraffin wax. It makes a great home-school project. Check the chips and dips aisle of your local supermarket: Fritos brand canned dips come in perfectly sized cans for this project, with the added bonus of fitted plastic lids to stave off the elements during storage.
Another home-school or craft version involves melting paraffin in a double-boiler, then mixing in sawdust to the point of saturation. Pour/force the mixture into egg cartons; after they cool and solidify, cut out the individual segments and wrap them tightly. Light them with a match, and they are great fire starters.
Does butane have an indefinite shelf life? i can't tell from googling butane shelf life
Quote from: DadaOrwell on January 12, 2008, 02:52 PM NHFT
Does butane have an indefinite shelf life? i can't tell from googling butane shelf life
The shelf life isn't documented but should be considered a number of
years, like any pressurized can (spray paint, etc.). You have to be careful not to store it in too hot a plate. There are warnings on the cans about storing at temperatures above 120 degrees. But I've rediscovered old cans that were half-used and turned up 5+ years later, still good as new.
Dave - lighters of the type I'm talking about are available for $4-5 at Blue Canoe.
I was looking for crystalline ascorbic acid, and almost all of it is manufactured in China and imported.
I searched "ascorbic acid suppliers" and came up with 2 in the US
http://www.alibaba.com/company/10121666.html
http://www.alibaba.com/company/11355625.html
I'm sure there are more, and it would be great to find suppliers for that, essential amino acids, and other hard-to-come-by items in New Hampshire.
A 100% made-in-New Hampshire kit would be unlikely, but awesome!
As a pipe smoker I use zippos and love them.
Zippo has a new fuel out that is odorless but even before it came out I mixed it with 151 Rum. It burns good and smells good. You could use any high alcohol content liquor like Everclear or other "grain alcohols"
Kola
Dada let me know if you are going to include a sewing kit.
Most of the premade kits have terrible quality thread.
Let me know if you need needles.
Kate
Let "the market" decide.
Academic discussion about the contents of the kit is good, but after 15 years in the ivory towers, and armchair top-down plan is likely to leave you short in time of need. Build a few kits and test them. Bring a few to PorCfest and have someone try to use nothing but the supplies in the kit for as long as is practical.
It's really the only way to know what items you really need, what items you're missing, what items are of poor quality or have other unanticipated attributes. I've been on plenty of camping and boating trips, and sometimes it's the simplest things that we take for granted that we are most likely to overlook.
If the kit is for home use, why not have a porcupine activity where a few people get together and field-test the kit over several days with the electricity and water turned off, etc. Most things are only a disaster because you're caught off guard and haven't planned for them. Field testing shoves the inescapable real-world problems in your face and gives you no choice but to deal with them. Having a pen and paper handy while dealing with adversity is the best way to assemble a kit for future problems.
If something moderately bad happens that puts people in a bind, the only things you really need are warmth, water, and a system for waste disposal.
Of course, the giant, sucking parasite of govt will require that people still pay rent and such, utilities will be due if you're on the grid, etc. So a store of money would be good to have.
So you don't need much to just sit tight.
Candles/flashlights obviously are helpful and psychologically reassuring
Extra DRY clothing stored in plastic to make sure you STAY warm
Dual fuel camp stove in case main home stove gets cut off/destroyed
First aid kit? First aid INSTRUCTIONS?
Waterproof rain gear?
And most important is the simple preparation people can do if there is an approaching hurricane/tornado/despotic govt
It's easy to fill bottles, pots, and the bathtub with potable water right from the tap
Is there a plan for what to do with the frozen stuff in the freezer when the power will be out for a week?
Do you have simple, cheap staple foods to keep you from becoming a zombie from hunger? 25 and 50 lb bags of rice and beans go a LONG way, and are super inexpensive insurance. Make sure they're stored in rodent-proof containers like a metal trash can with overlapping lid that is bungeed down. Pasta is dirt cheap too.
Do you have enough creature comforts like toothpase, TP, whatever to get you through more than a week/month? Just because the disaster is "over," doesn't mean that the local stores will have been restocked after the shelves have been emptied.
Do you have a shotgun to make sure the horde of locusts doesn't strip you of all your planning?
No f'ing birdshot - 00 buck and slugs
A rifle would be useful for holding back an approaching mob of raiders.
People with children have special needs that need to be well thought out and planned for.
If you're going to be on the move at all
Spare car keys
Spare house keys
5 gal stabilized gas
maps
hardcopies of important phone numbers, email addresses, directions to people's houses (including alternate routes)
Tire plug kit
Manual (pedal) tire pump
***** A whole 'nother prep kit for the car in case you get stranded *****
Think of specific things that could go wrong and what you'd need to deal with those situations.
Maybe it's a hurricane or storm.
Window breaks? Rain leaking in? Power out? Water out?
tarps, plastic sheets, staple gun, nails, hammer, battery backup devices (flashlights, radio), fuel backup devices (camp stove, candles, heaters, lamps), water storage, dry waterproofed sleeping bags and clothes, etc.
Maybe a tree falls on a LP line or on the house
Got wrenches/Vice-Grips to turn off gas? Some other way to crimp off or stopper up a broken natural gas line? A true disaster would be to get quickly driven out of your perfectly well-stocked-for-a-disaster home because it's filled with gas.
Got a fire extinguisher in the house?
Extra medication for people who need it? Insulin? Syringes? Heart meds?
Extra glasses so you're not suddenly stricken blind?
A lot of this stuff should be put into a nearly indestructible container with easy-to-grab handles and stored somewhere Immediately ACCESSIBLE. "where's the store-&-ignore kit? I can't find it - it's pitch black at 3am and the power's out and it's in the attic with ice-cold wind & rain pouring in...."
But whatever gets assembled - pull it back apart and USE it to make sure it's not just a good idea, but that it's actually a good kit.
Just an update to let you know I haven't forgotten about this and am still slowly gathering the right items at the right price to have a few of these ready.
but I've decided the word "kit" is misleading
This thing isn't designed to put everything you need in one spot or be a portable cure-all. Designing such a thing is beyond my current capabilities and is not consistent with the indefinite shelf life requirement. This is simply going to be 30 or 40 pounds worth of stuff that will surely be in short supply during a disaster lasting more than a week, which will be good for barter use, and which won't go bad in the meantime. Unlike a typical kit (which you can get from someone else and which will contain semi-perishable items) it won't really depreciate in value over the years.
So I think I will call it something more like the "Store-and-Ignore Disaster Outlaster" or the "Store and Ignore Disaster Supply"
I do however like the idea of letting the market (the individual buyer) decide to some extent what goes in it.
guys where do you think is the best place to get big pressure cookers that could be used as the storage device? (bald eagle's idea)
where is the best place to get 15-20 gallon resealable water resistant buckets?
Can't help on the 15-20 gallon size.
Bulk kitty litter from Sam's will yield 5 gallon square buckets.
I also need to know if any of you would buy a pressure cooker , were it included. The price would likely run between 30 and seventy dollars depending on the cooker.
And how much interest is there in Potassium Iodide? It's for preventing thyroid damage after a radiological incident....and thought it comes with an expiration date, research has shown it to be viable indefinitely.
OK: I am ready to put together a couple disaster supply boxes for sale now. PM me if you want one. You won't need to pay until delivery, but you should expect it will take three weeks for me to put everything together and stand in front of you with it.
These first boxes will be basic but will have certain advantages over the ones I produce later.
- More customizable: I'm not even going to start putting it together until I've received some instructions from you. If you wish, you can just give me the nod and I will use my own discretion what to include.
- If you order one of these first boxes you'll have one in your hands sooner.
- The prices are probably lower now than they will be later
Here are the items I've researched, priced for best value, purchased and placed in front of me ready to put in your box. Tell me which ones are most and least important to you, and I will weight the box accordingly. You won't use them all, but all have high barter potential. Remember...for this project I am only focusing on items that have an indefinite shelf life. So these contents will not "go bad" on you if you keep them at a stable moderate temperature. These consumables will be worth their weight in silver if scarcity ever strikes...but you can always use them as general supplies. They are, ultimately, a small, diversified store of value.
7.62 x 39 soft point ammo (hunting rounds) - 30 cents a round
sealed bleach tabs - $8.00 each (for treating water)
3-hour tea candles - 6 cents each
tissue paper - 70 cents per hundred
paper towells - $1.10 per hundred
plastic litre bags, see-through - not yet priced
coffee filters - price pending (can double as crude water filters)
salt - the world's ancient currency: 40 cents/lb
Honey - 3.00/lb
(will eventually crystalize but can be reclaimed by heating)
aluminum foil - 5 cents/square foot
tear-by-hand clear tape
matches - three per penny
clear baggies - price pending
Vaseline - two bucks per 8 ounce container
Isopropyl alchohol $2.50/qt
tampons - 15 cents each, varying sizes and absorbencies available
wheat berries - $1.00/lb
What are you actually asking for a complete, pre-made kit that you build to your own discretion?
I also like including the potassium iodide.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on April 27, 2008, 01:18 AM NHFT
What are you actually asking for a complete, pre-made kit that you build to your own discretion?
I also like including the potassium iodide.
Tell you what, how about I go ahead and assemble one, then announce the cost? You can either buy or not buy depending on whether you like the cost and the content balance.
If you don't buy it I"m sure someone else will so it's no sweat off my nose. I could probably hand it to you on Tuesday since I"m back in town then. maybe at taproom tuesdays, should be there.
strike anywhere matches, presumably? (maybe w/ a waterproof container)
how bout a wind-up flashlight?
just a suggestion.
Alright, I've gone ahead and assembled one box. It's heavy, just light enough for one average person to carry. However I've left enough space so that you could take everything out and put it back in without much trouble. All items are new but some had to be opened so I could store other items inside them. Some of the absorbent items I have spread around so that they double as dessicant while in storage.
200 rounds soft point 7.62 x 39 ammo: $50
1 sealed bleach tab: $7.00
400 coffee filters: $4
1 roll tp: 30 cents
1 roll of aluminum foil: $2
approx 2 lbs non iodized salt: $1
approx 2 lbs iodized salt: $1
400 matches $1.30
100 paper plates $2.00
approx 150 3 hr tea candles: $9.00
80 tampons: $12
20 paper bowls $2.00
2 rolls paper towells, some dispersed to absorb moisture: $2.00
honey 10 lbs: $30
4 sponges $2
3 boxes tissue paper: $3.00
about 50 plastic bags: $1.00
plastic clear tape, rippable by hand: $3.00
8 pounds wheat berries: $8
Total: $140
Probably no more than you'd pay for these items unassembled at Shaws/Riley's.
with regard to wind up flashlights, is there any indication that they have an indefiniate shelf life... or do the power cells go bad eventually?
the latter has been my experience.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 27, 2008, 02:46 PM NHFT
with regard to wind up flashlights, is there any indication that they have an indefiniate shelf life... or do the power cells go bad eventually?
the latter has been my experience.
good question.
i've had one i keep in my outdoor wood boiler (behind the control panel door) for 2+ years now.
it only gets seasonal use (nov-march, nothing the rest of the year) & so far has worked fine
also, sees high temps while boiler is in operation
arright, one box has now been spoken for...altho it's one i'm assembling now as opposed to the one above. it will be similar but not identical.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on December 15, 2007, 02:52 PM NHFT
I'd like input from you guys before I get too deep into this project...
I am thinking of designing and producing a low-cost disaster kit primarily for use *after* the first week of a catastrophe. It would also be designed so that every item had an indefinite shelf life. Its contents would be barter-friendly consumables you could make easy use of with or without an emergency, at a better price than you would usually find them at the store
In other words, a safe microinvestment.
Here's a list of items I might include...but mainly I am wanting to know how much interest there is in something like this. If interest is limited , I may not do much. However if interest is high enough, that would give me an excuse to start collecting a lot more survival friendly stuff and turning this kit, or something similar, into reality.
Chlorine Water treatment tabs - plus printed instructions on how to use them, even in cloudy water.
http://www.lesliespool.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=9151&iMainCat=14&iSubCat=104&iProductID=9151&tabID=3
There is apparently debate regarding the indefinite status of this item's shelf life.
Alum - for de-clouding water and making it easier to treat with Chlorine. I'm uncertain regarding the indefinite status of this item's shelf life.
Ammo - Something the Red Cross and Wal Mart kits never get around to including...fortunately it is still legal to sell without bureaucratic obstacles. Ammunition historically becomes a currency in protracted crises.
Candles -
Laptop Friendly Disaster Survival Library - this is a keyword searchable disaster survival document on CD; compiled by me but written by the U.S. Army and the Red Cross.
Matches - Matches became a currency in Bosnia during the 1990s conflict. To limit fire hazard issues, I could store them in sealed glass jars?
Sterno - good for cooking indoors without electricity
kleenex - ideally, I should leave you a room full, but this will have to do.
Lamp Oil - apparently odorless mineral spirits are better. u get them at home depot.
honey - will crystalize eventually but can be reclaimed by _____
salt - the world's ancient currency. Became very valuable in central Bosnia during the war.
Wheat - plus printed instructions on how to sprout it. This will keep you eating veggies for another week or two.
See thru trash bags - double as low-budget greenhouse device in the sun. Useful for all kinds of things and rarely in plentiful supply.
Baggies
Tampons - barter friendly even if you don't use them.
Ideally the biggest advantage of buying these things in this disaster kit form, might be that they are actually cheaper to own that way. I already know how to find things really cheap around here and I'm just getting started... but my first step would be to find the lowest possible prices on items like these.
Your thoughts?
Yes I would most certainly buy one Dave. I most certainly would.
Manifest for the disaster box featured on the Ridley Report, which was to be priced at $140
100 rounds 7.62 x 39 soft point ammo
100 rounds 7.62 x 39 FMJ ammo
10 emergency stick candles
2 jar candles
1 tear-by hand tape thing
~1 litre ultra-pure lamp oil
~40 tea candles stuffed into other items
400 matches
2 toothbrushes
2 safety razors
40 tampons of various types
1 pt iso alchohol
200 small coffee filters
8 oz petroleum jelly (vaseline)
honey
1 roll aluminum foil
1 space blanket
20 paper plates
~10 trash bags
~10 clear plastic baggies
~50 bandaids
2 rolls paper towells
2 pr army wool socks
4 boxes tissue paper
100 packaged tea candles
Here's a list of items which I generally have available for placement in *your* box. However there will be times when some of these are not "in stock."
If designing your own box is too complicated just provide me a couple of parameters to work with, turn me loose and I will build one for you using my best judgment...
Soft point SKS/AK ammo (7.62 x 39)
Full metal jacket SKS/AK ammo (7.62 x 39)
Chlorine bleach (the only item in the box that does not have an indefinite shelf life. To make it last indefinitely you must store it in a refrigerator).
Coffee filters
Toilet paper
Tissue paper
Aluminum foil
iodized and non-iodized salt
matches
paper plates
candles, various types and sizes
tampons
paper bowls
paper towells
honey (will eventually crystalize but does not go bad - you just heat it up to de-crystalize)
sponges
plastic baggies
garbage bags
clear plastic tape (tear-by-hand)
wheat berries (for sprouting or grinding)
instructions for water treatment and
U.S. Army pocket survival manual 21-76
swiss-type army knives (cheap knockof version in this case)
wool socks
lamp oil
toothbrushes
safety razors
iso. alchohol
petroleum jelly
space blankets
bandaids
baking soda
All place in 18 gallon rubbermaid-type plastic container
That is the current list. Availability will vary over time.
This sounds like a valuable gift for someone that would appreciate this kind of thing. I would consider getting some of my family members one.
I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts regarding water filters. what would be the most universally acceptable and appropriate type of water filter or cartridge to include in the boxes? I've had a lot of trouble deciding. I bought a katadyn "base camp" to test. It was ok but i'd like to do better.
obviously the thing needs to have an indefinite shelf life.
Another question I have: I've researched pretty carefully the laws on selling ammo. it looks like this is almost totally unregulated except that you must not sell to people that fall into certain categories....under 18, under felony indictment, etc.
I'd welcome any warnings you guys have about any legal pitfalls in selling ammo....I'm attempting to follow the law to the letter.
on a somewhat related note who has advice regarding the best place to get heirloom seeds that can be stored indefinitely in a freezer? obviously these could not go in the box but I'd like to own some or resell some.
Dave for your next box one idea is to try and pack a few Mason Jars Lids and Rings. I think if something does happen the longer it goes on the more valuable Mason jars would become. I don't think they would take much space since you could store items in the jars and then the jars in the box.
If there is a disaster that lasts for months people will want to store food and mason jars can become the difference between being able to keep food or starve in times when food is not available. Even if you did not have food to store you could trade them to people with gardens so they could keep the food they grow.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on November 08, 2008, 12:42 PM NHFT
I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts regarding water filters. what would be the most universally acceptable and appropriate type of water filter or cartridge to include in the boxes? I've had a lot of trouble deciding. I bought a katadyn "base camp" to test. It was ok but i'd like to do better.
What were the problems (or things you'd like to see improved) with the Katadyn "base camp" filter?
Disclaimer: I've purchased two of the "Katadyn Pocket Microfilter" filters to serve as my emergency water filtration/purification method.
well the base camp is great in some ways but the one i got sometimes just sits there and doesn't move the water. you have to fiddle with it to get it to start moving the water.
I would recommend using something like Space Bag (http://"https://www.spacebag.com/spacebag") and/or Foodsaver (http://"http://www.foodsaver.com/index.aspx?") vacuum-sealed storage bags for fitting more into smaller space and preserving it longer.
A diverse (yet traditional i.e. tomatoes, potatoes, corn, etc. rather than squash, rutabaga or some other unusual vegetable) selection of seeds for growing your own food would be useful as well.
Shop wholesale online or go to low-cost stores like Dollar General/Family Dollar to acquire your items. They have some amazingly cheap and useful stuff.
-Z
I'd like to compare your manifiest with bulk prices at amazon.freetalklive.com.
If you sign up as a premier member at amazon ($75/yr) you get free shipping on more things.
Oh, and always have a bag full of bags handy including ziplocks.
I'll ask Beth to review this list. She keeps different types of bags ready for different types of animals. And we're all just smart animals.
Dave: Your beating the prices available on Amazon, before shipping. :)
cool...! You want to order one?
great place to purchase seeds
http://www.seedsavers.org/ (http://www.seedsavers.org/)
Storing foods in the mason jars for long-term storage, and also storing matches, medications, etc., in the jars has helped us double our usage factors for space and some items. I often use saran wrap rather tham my precious lids for covering the jars, and still use the rings, of course.
Wide-mouth jars, with extra lids, is a good bet for canning many things.
ff
Err....someone needs a manual for this??
[/quote]
The military does and you have to fill out a form
every time in triplicate. ;D
[/quote]
Well, at least you have something to wipe with.
[/quote]
They' have large "read, & tear manuals" ..where you read a page or two, then use a page or two (perforated tear lines, softened paper) ,
and when you're finished reading your book (all the pages are gone), you then are issued a new "edition" of a new "story" to that fits securely in your brown colored book cover.
Quote from: Dan on November 13, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
She keeps different types of bags ready for different types of animals.
Wouldn't it be easier to have a barn or '3 sided shed' then to store the animals in plastic bags?
:biglaugh:
Wow Dada this is really impressive! I would replace wooden matches with book matches,
so if you have to leave you can take the striker and matches along easily and place them in a resealable
plastic bag. I'm glad you put some ammunition in your kits. With the buying sprees recently
if you cant get 7.62x39 affordably you might substitute .22LR or 9MM as an incentive for people
to have a way to protect those kits if the need arises. :)
glad you like it ness...
how can anyone ignore an endorserment from a guy whose avatar is the stay puft marshmellow man!