New Hampshire Underground

New Hampshire Underground => Voluntaryism/Anarchism => Topic started by: dalebert on January 16, 2008, 12:22 AM NHFT

Title: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: dalebert on January 16, 2008, 12:22 AM NHFT
Now that the NH Underground is starting to define itself more clearly, it seems like a good time for this thread.

I'd like to get some dialog going about a basic strategy for affecting a positive shift toward liberty in the culture of NH. I think it was most inspired by the open carry activism that some people have already started doing. For instance, Dave did open carry trash pickup. The idea was to dispel negative impressions people have about those who carry and promote a culture where carrying is a natural thing that doesn't freak people out. However, it got me to thinking about the sorts of things that "radicals" do that freak people out. Perhaps those truly averse to guns will get uncomfortable enough to leave which would be another benefit of that activism.

Some people worry about freaking people out or scaring people off. Is that really a bad thing though? What kind of people are we scaring off? Personally, I'm much more comfortable around the kind of people that much of society would label as radicals* for their take on liberty. Mainstream society seems frighteningly brainwashed to me. If statism is mainstream, I want nothing to do with the mainstream.

Imagine if we actually manage to get enough media attention for the NH Underground (not FSP) that NH starts to get the reputation as the place where those radical* freedom lovers practice their shenanigans. Imagine if our acts of civil disobedience really started to achieve whatever it takes to make them good news, i.e. entertaining, ratings grabbers. Imagine getting on the statewide news regularly. Imagine getting on National news regularly! I like the idea of branding NH as a place for "radicals" and making statists really uneasy about living here.

We don't need to change our message. I just think it's in our best interest not to soft step around the close-minded. Let's be openly and brazenly honest about who we are. Let the statists know- if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Maybe we will never change the hearts of some people but the primary goal is to change the state of NH, right?

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts on how to do this better?

------

* I bought a bumper sticker at NHLF that says something like this (from memory):

Violence abroad: Conservative
Violence at home: Liberal
Violence everywhere: Moderate
Violence nowhere: Radical
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: dalebert on January 16, 2008, 01:35 AM NHFT
just be advised.....

If you cause any bad publicity, you will get blamed for everything that has ever gone wrong with the FSP...e.g. zack bass

That's kind of already starting to happen so it seems somewhat unavoidable. Still, I want to continue the goodwill effort. That's why I said I want us to brand NH Underground and not the FSP, which as we all know is just a bus and is a much bigger tent than NH Underground.

I'm not familiar with the Zack Bass story though.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: PowerPenguin on January 16, 2008, 02:23 AM NHFT
Dalebert,

I love you man, but I think you're wrong. Statists are unmoving on the issues *because* they are afraid of change. If we piss them off, they will be turned off for good. IMHO, we should kill them with kindness. We should be controversial, but not scary or rude. See the recent Concord Monitor issue about the whiny bureaucrat being 'forced to put up with' RP supporters. You and I know that's BS, but the man on the street that doesn't know the truth will just have to assume that that bad press is accurate.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Jim Johnson on January 16, 2008, 07:59 AM NHFT
I agree with you Dale.
Discusions of issues only take place when people are moved to do so.
The discusion of wheather drivers licences are good or bad only took place after an event that showed the nature of the wrong.
Similarly laws are not changed or enacted until an event is provided for people to use as a point of reference.
Not that changing a law is going to make a difference.
How people react to a particular event can not be determined before hand.  I was not ready for peoples violent reaction to Lauren not wanting show her government papers.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: dalebert on January 16, 2008, 10:25 AM NHFT
Statists are unmoving on the issues *because* they are afraid of change. If we piss them off, they will be turned off for good.

That's kind of my point. The hardcore statists aren't going to be receptive to our message. The next best thing is for them to not want to be here. Think about the Massholes. Let's create an image of NH that discourages them from coming here. Let's be that very vocal minority that creates brushfires in people's minds, but a really vocal minority also gives the impression of being larger than it really is. I think this is the case with the religious right.

I don't want to be rude. I don't even want to try be scary. I just know that to some people it will be and that's not such a bad thing. I was thinking mainly of open carry when I think of people getting scared. It's an irrational fear obviously, and I'm fine with irrational people not wanting to live in NH. The gun culture here seems strong enough that if we push it further with very visible open carry, it could take root and propogate. The law is already decent. We should capitalize on it and make it a commonplace thing for people to see an average person carrying in public places, particularly in the city.

The truth is that this is really just the nature of what we do at NH Underground. We're already doing it. I just want to point out a side benefit that we may not have thought of and that perhaps we should think of when we're planning events. I just think we should encourage more of that.

I was surprised at how many people seemed sincerely moved by Lauren's arrest at the Keene Pumpkin Festival. We were able to witness, anecdotally of course, a lot of people's reactions to her story without them knowing who we were. We were just standing nearby and watching and listening. A lot of people are receptive to a strong honest message. There was nothing rude about what she did (though some police might debate that) and she certainly wasn't trying to be scary. They weren't necessarily 100% on Lauren's side about licensing, but the state's treatment of her gave them a twinge that something was badly wrong. Those are the NH people that justify the slogan of "Live Free or Die". It makes me optimistic. The ones who didn't feel a twinge, who took the side of the state 100%, well I say good-riddance.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: dalebert on January 16, 2008, 10:36 AM NHFT
You know, it's hard to express myself with just typed text. I'm not really saying to be more radical or anything like that. That wouldn't even be honest. I guess I'm just trying to put emphasis on the notion of branding, of creating with events and media a very strong association between three things- liberty, NH Underground, and the state of NH. Think of that lizard that spread out it's scales to make itself look bigger to its enemies.  :icon_pirat:
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 16, 2008, 10:42 AM NHFT
I really like focusing on attracting other radical freedom lovers. I think changing people's minds over time is good too.
I also agree that some will always oppose us and they cannot make us timid or determine all of our actions.

the New Hampshire Underground .... ruining it for some since 2004
The New Hampshire Underground .... populating The Shire with friendly freedom loving folks since we can't remember when ... we have been drinkin too much of that Underground Railroad brew at the border.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 16, 2008, 11:53 AM NHFT
Absolutely agreed, Dale.  I have no interest in appeasing statists.

I'm promoting Keene (http://freekeene.com/108-reasons-to-move-to-keene/) in hopes that it will become the "radical" hub and drive the statists here back to Massachusetts, Vermont, and New York.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 16, 2008, 12:53 PM NHFT
...Statists are unmoving on the issues *because* they are afraid of change. If we piss them off, they will be turned off for good. IMHO, we should kill them with kindness. We should be controversial, but not scary or rude...

I have to agree with PowerPenguin on this point.  In order to be successful, one must work in harmony with nature, not resist it.  Since the medium we work with is human individuals, we must work in harmony with human nature to be effective.

If we recognize that many individuals support the Authoritarian Model of Government (AMOG) simply because they fear change, we are then in a position to use this fearful disposition to our advantage.  By effectively articulating what the 'AMOG' actually leads to, we can redirect that fear in a rational direction. 

George Orwell did this with some success through his epic novel, 1984.  Unfortunately, he did not direct his audience toward an escape exit -- and as a result, his depressed readers are left to resign themselves to perpetual slavery.  We have an escape exit to offer -- it is called asserting one's sovereignty by just saying NO to authoritarian government, and transitioning to the Free Market model.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on January 16, 2008, 12:56 PM NHFT
Statists are more likely to use their superior numbers against you (e.g., passing new laws, demanding the government “get tough” enforcing the extant ones) before they just up and leave. How are you going to ensure this sort of backlash doesn’t happen?
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 16, 2008, 12:57 PM NHFT
...The discusion of wheather drivers licences are good or bad only took place after an event that showed the nature of the wrong...
...How people react to a particular event can not be determined before hand.  I was not ready for peoples violent reaction to Lauren not wanting show her government papers.

When we are controversial, (i.e. Lauren's refusal to beg permission to drive), it is inevitable and completely predictable that some people will have a knee-jerk reaction to it.  Most likely, those are the ones who stand to lose the most from the paradigm shift that Lauren 'threatened' to initiate through her actions -- such as LEOs and their family members, and others who see themselves as benefitting from the Authoritarian Model of Government.  We do not need the support of those individuals.  It only takes a fraction of the population 'just saying NO' to the AMOG to accomplish a mass transition to the Free Market model.  As the transition begins to go mainstream, the rest of the sheeple will follow suit, even as they mutter their protests :)

We do need people on board with us, and coming across as "rude" or "scary" only accomplishes the opposite.  That said, Lauren's peaceful 'just say NO' activism does not appear rude or scary to most people (outsiders) that I have spoken to about it.  The worst I have encountered is a lack of understanding why she did it.  It is important to combine our 'just say NO' activism with a clear articulation of the reasoning behind it, and what we have to offer to our audience.

Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: dalebert on January 16, 2008, 01:35 PM NHFT
We do need people on board with us, and coming across as "rude" or "scary" only accomplishes the opposite.

Those are words other people have used and I'm simply responding. Don't put words in my mouth. Some have expressed concerns that our actions might scare some people away, and I'm just saying that those people have irrational fears (like peaceful people carrying guns) and it's not such a bad thing if those people avoid NH.

As for statists passing laws, that's kind of beside the point I'm making. I'm talking about the culture of NH, particularly the one that the world sees through the media, even in things like our websites and YouTube videos. We can also affect the culture by our visibility in the densely populated areas. We absolutely shouldn't be rude, but we should be truthful, vocal, and visible. We can show the world a NH as we want it to be and hope that statists will perceive NH as an uphill battle and prefer an easier target.

While I don't personally have confidence in political activity, it seems that those who do could envision a benefit from this as well, even while they may choose to distance themselves from us to some degree or another. I've always said that a culture shift has to precede any sort of political shift.

It's not an overnight thing so we need to be patient. Our visibility is already growing with things like the open carry video and the Ridley Report. We just need to keep the momentum up.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Fluff and Stuff on January 16, 2008, 02:17 PM NHFT
Why not encourage radicals to move to Keene?  It is not expensive there.  It almost borders MA and VT and is the closest part of NH to NY and CT.  It has a college for radicals and you don't even need a car to get around in Keene.  Besides, you already have radicals with TV and radio shows in Keene.  It seems like the perfect place to do the most radical stuff.

There are lots of near-by colleges in MA and even some in VT to recruit more radicals from.

Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: yonder on January 16, 2008, 02:25 PM NHFT
I'm promoting Keene (http://freekeene.com/108-reasons-to-move-to-keene/) in hopes that it will become the "radical" hub and drive the statists here back to Massachusetts, Vermont, and New York.

Your efforts are not in vain.

Through all of your actions, I've found various forums, podcasts, blogs, etc. about all the things going on in New Hampshire.  I'm in North Carolina, no immediate plans to move.  But I planted the seed in my wife's head.  She was totally averse at first, worried mostly about our oldest daughter losing her best friend.  Well the best friend's dad is a hardcore lover of individual liberty, as well.  When his wife was over at the house yesterday I mentioned the Free State Project, how I'm interested in checking out New Hampshire, sounds like something her husband would be really into as well.  My wife didn't roll her eyes even once.  Maybe it is sinking in.

Keene is, of course, one of the towns I would definitely want to check out if I ever managed to convince her to seriously consider relocating.  There is just too much going on there and in the nearby vicinity to be overlooked.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 16, 2008, 02:26 PM NHFT
I like the way you are thinking Dale.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: PowerPenguin on January 16, 2008, 08:33 PM NHFT
Absolutely agreed, Dale.  I have no interest in appeasing statists.

I'm promoting Keene (http://freekeene.com/108-reasons-to-move-to-keene/) in hopes that it will become the "radical" hub and drive the statists here back to Massachusetts, Vermont, and New York.

Sounds good to me, Ian. However, this is one of the many reasons why I myself will not be moving there, but rather to the exact opposite side of the state, somewhere in or near Portsmouth. I came from the moderate left originally, and find myself with other such people the majority of the time. That being said, my strategy is to gain the friendship and trust of people as just a person, and then gradually bring some things out of the closet over time, as it were. On the open carry issue, I'd probably start with concealed carry, and then bust it out in the open after people got to know me for a few weeks or months. At that point, people would not see firearms as a scary thing, but as a good, or at the very least neutral thing that people should be allowed to have.

At the very least, we need to understand the enemy, though perhaps not agree with him. I like to emphasize killing bad attitudes with kindness. People are usually more receptive to positive, rather than negative reinforcement, and there's absolutely no reason to seem like the enemy if there isn't some kind of life and death reason.

In a similar vein, I would like to advocate and practice the agorist value of supporting the (victimless) black market whenever possible, both as a consumer and as a producer. Just like with foreign relations, we activists need to bring others around to our way of thinking by providing valuable goods and services. When people trade, peace ensues, as does understanding. If statists are economically dependent on, and materially benefited by freedom oriented people, they'll be more likely to join our side.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 16, 2008, 08:59 PM NHFT
You would rather move to Portsmouth by yourself than know that Ian and other radicals live in Keene? If you are looking for leftists ... Keene might have a higher percentage than Portsmouth. The only reasons I can see to move there would be for a larger city or the ocean. :)

You do realize there are FSP members in Keene who are far from radical, don't you?
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: David on January 16, 2008, 10:08 PM NHFT
It makes the statists rather uncomfortable when you call them thieves and thugs, then politely ask them to quit. 
Slavery was abolished in most places due to the loud thundering of the abolitionists calling it a moral evil, a stain, etc. 
I like your thinking Dale. 
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: dalebert on January 16, 2008, 11:22 PM NHFT
The only reasons I can see to move there would be for a larger city or the ocean. :)

He also needs a means to commute to Boston for a while for his gf if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Dave Ridley on January 16, 2008, 11:52 PM NHFT
u can start by referring to them as authoritarians rather than statists

i think it just has a better ring to it
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 16, 2008, 11:56 PM NHFT
+1  :icon_pirat:
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 17, 2008, 12:08 PM NHFT
We do need people on board with us, and coming across as "rude" or "scary" only accomplishes the opposite.

Those are words other people have used and I'm simply responding. Don't put words in my mouth...

Sorry, Dale, that was not my intent.  I know you were not advocating that, and did not mean to imply that you were.  I should have worded it better.

I completely agree with you that some of the most effective activism is inherently controversial.  This is a good thing, and if it results in toes getting stepped on, so be it.  It is a waste of time to seek the support of hardcore statists authoritarians (nod to DR).  Of course, that does not mean one has to actually be rude or scary :)

Unfortunately, browbeating is a common tactic of "libertarian" types.  Some folks could interpret your original post as promoting such tactics.  PowerPenguin appeared to be warning against this, and I was simply agreeing with him on that.

Notice that in my previous post I cut out the part where he says, "I think you're wrong".  I did so because I actually do agree with you, while also agreeing with PowerPenguin's warning on the dangers of being confrontational and rude.

Sorry I wasn't clear on that :hug45:



Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 17, 2008, 12:35 PM NHFT
It makes the statists rather uncomfortable when you call them thieves and thugs, then politely ask them to quit. 
Slavery was abolished in most places due to the loud thundering of the abolitionists calling it a moral evil, a stain, etc. 
I like your thinking Dale. 

Exposing evil actions and policies for what they are, is indeed vital to turning the tide of public opinion.

Calling individuals evil or immoral puts those individuals on the defensive, and just causes them to dig in their heels.  If the purpose is to expose the harmful legacy of such individuals for the benefit of the public, fine.  But if the objective is to encourage those individuals to change themselves, I fail to see how a confrontational approach can accomplish that.

How does it make you feel when someone calls you evil or immoral, for doing what seems right to you?
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Jim Johnson on January 17, 2008, 06:48 PM NHFT

Calling individuals evil or immoral puts those individuals on the defensive, and just causes them to dig in their heels.  If the purpose is to expose the harmful legacy of such individuals for the benefit of the public, fine.  But if the objective is to encourage those individuals to change themselves, I fail to see how a confrontational approach can accomplish that.

How does it make you feel when someone calls you evil or immoral, for doing what seems right to you?

Initially they dig in their heals.  Over time something like that works on a persons conscience, (I am assuming that any particular Statist has a conscience.)

They will ask themself and others, 'What makes me evil?'   The questioner is asking for reinforcement of his or her beliefs.  The answer that person receives should be your explanation of why you believe they are evil.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 17, 2008, 07:05 PM NHFT
change comes with each individual
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 18, 2008, 02:25 PM NHFT
Initially they dig in their heals.  Over time something like that works on a persons conscience, (I am assuming that any particular Statist has a conscience.)

They will ask themself and others, 'What makes me evil?'   The questioner is asking for reinforcement of his or her beliefs.  The answer that person receives should be your explanation of why you believe they are evil.

Speaking out articulately and firmly against evil actions and policies leaves it up to the individual to ask himself, "How do I measure up?", and allows the incrimination to come from within.

IME, personal attacks do not ever have that effect, not even in the long run.  They just compel the individual to endlessly rationalize justifications for their actions, and close their mind to the (unfriendly) message.

For instance, there is a striking difference between saying, "Enforcing victimless crime laws is inherently wrong, regardless of one's job description", vs. "You, Mr. Officer, are a bad person for enforcing victimless crime laws. You should quit your job".

Oh wait, let me rephrase that:

You, Jim, are stupid for not readily seeing the difference.  Go play in the street.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 18, 2008, 02:28 PM NHFT
...just kidding, of course! ;)

As a matter of fact, I have a great deal of respect for you, Jim, and said that only to illustrate my point :)
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Jim Johnson on January 18, 2008, 02:50 PM NHFT

Oh wait, let me rephrase that:

You, Jim, are stupid for not readily seeing the difference.  Go play in the street.

Thank you for pointing that out...publicly.   ::)
But it is my job...and as it is my job I will continue to do so as a member of a productive society.

I don't see your point. 
"Enforcing victimless crime laws is inherently wrong, regardless of one's job description", vs. "You, Mr. Officer, are a bad person for enforcing victimless crime laws. You should quit your job", should read as, "Enforcing victimless crime laws is inherently wrong, regardless of one's job description. Therefore, You, Mr. Officer, are a bad person for enforcing victimless crime laws. You should quit your job".
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 19, 2008, 02:49 PM NHFT
Thank you for pointing that out...publicly.   ::)

LOL, I was not pointing out any such thing!  Nobody sees perfectly eye to eye, that does not automatically indicate stupidity ;D

It was only meant to demonstrate the automatic internal response to an attack on one's person.  If it was in bad taste, even though it was not meant seriously, I do apologize.

I don't see your point. 
"Enforcing victimless crime laws is inherently wrong, regardless of one's job description", vs. "You, Mr. Officer, are a bad person for enforcing victimless crime laws. You should quit your job", should read as, "Enforcing victimless crime laws is inherently wrong, regardless of one's job description. Therefore, You, Mr. Officer, are a bad person for enforcing victimless crime laws. You should quit your job".

Before I proceed, let me point out that I am only having this conversation with you because I know you to be quite intelligent, and value your input.  Otherwise, I would just ignore what you have to say :)

The natural, spontaneous response to any perceived attack on one's self, including one's personal honor, is self-defense.  This is true even for individuals who do not understand or respect the equal sovereignty of others, such as cops.  Perhaps an extremely mature individual would consciously override this impulse, and give it some rational thought -- but my experience is that most people are quite reactionary, especially government stooges.

When you condemn a person, he may think "What an asshole" or "What a moron", but never "Gee, maybe he's right -- I am a bad person.  I should change myself".

When you condemn an action, you avoid triggering the self-defense impulse, allowing rational thought to occur.  This allows the conviction to develop 'safely' from within -- something like this: "That is a good point.  I've never thought of it that way.  Come to think of it, my own actions do not measure up to this standard; perhaps I should change the way I act".
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on January 20, 2008, 05:11 AM NHFT
just be advised.....

If you cause any bad publicity, you will get blamed for everything that has ever gone wrong with the FSP...e.g. zack bass

Bad publicity is Good!  Block-Busting works extremely well.  Those who yearn to oppress their neighbors have lots of places to move to.  All we have to do is disgust them.

"If it ain't broke, break it."

From what I’ve read on this and the other forums, your “strategy” is what gave the FTP such a bad name and got you kicked out of the FSP.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: kola on January 20, 2008, 06:03 AM NHFT
are there rats upon the bloody ship, matey?

KOla :icon_pirat:
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Bald Eagle on January 20, 2008, 09:49 AM NHFT
Try not to think in such absolute terms.  The language that you use largely determines the way you think about something.  Peter Christ of LEAP spoke of "failed policies" rather than a "war on drugs."  If you lock yourself into the war analogy, no one wants to lose a war, be a loser, or admit "defeat."  If you acknowledge and accept the fact that we are operating under bad policies, then people can readily get on board with changing those policies.

Get into people's heads and learn how they work.
Observe how you yourself tick.

Sometimes you need to delay your presentation, sometimes you need to use abstract vs concrete examples in your arguments or vice versa, and sometimes you need to "fool" people into discussing Topic A by starting out with Topic B and smoothly changing gears.

People generally go with their first impressions, making it a psychological hurdle to change their mindset, and they also don't want to lose face by admitting that they were wrong - and they really don't want anyone showing them that they were wrong. 

You've got to sit back for a second and evaluate you audience and then craft a presentation for them.  Get them to add things to the conversation that support your position and undermine the authoritarian position.  Then lead your way into discussing Topic A, where the person has already made their own personal comments and has somewhat committed themselves to being in your camp vs in your adversary's camp.  Set them up to be "right".  Create an atmosphere where your audience can feel good about "coming up with the answer themselves" rather that having the answer given to them in a lecture, or worse yet, scolded because their answer was wrong.

Again, this is not absolute.  If you're going to point out someone's error, try to do it in as concrete and irrefutable a manner as possible, but try to get on their good side first and then lightheartedly expose their utterly indefensible position - with dramatic and entertaining flair if possible.

The goal is to get the simply uninformed, the excusably confused, and the fence sitters to listen to what you've got to offer with as little negative predisposition as possible.  Keep in mind that sometimes all you need to do is Let The Topic Go and come back to it some other time.  Repetition is the key. Ignore their attempts to get you into and argument, and just limit yourself to factual statements.  Never ever ever ever ever ever stop.  Either they use their brains and start to agree with you simply because you're RIGHT, or they will get tired of trying to argue with you especially when you are always principled and consistent and they are not.

We've set off some pretty damned big explosions in the Atomic Age, but I have yet to see anything resembling the effects of glacier movement or water (the Grand Canyon) or tectonic plate movement.

There is a time for swift and overwhelming action, but you need to know when that time is.
Premature action can be worse than no action at all, since you tip your hand and reveal your cards.
You've got to set up the Dominoes before you tip the first one over.  Let's get out there and set up OUR Dominoes so that theirs are too few in comparison to matter.  The more Dominoes you have set up, the bigger the Revolution will be when you wake up and say, "Yes, Claire Wolfe, it's time."

Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Kat Kanning on January 20, 2008, 10:22 AM NHFT
You sound like you're hungering for that time.  Do you have any idea what war is really like?  Why would you ever want it?
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 20, 2008, 01:46 PM NHFT
Thank you, Bald Eagle!!!  Those are all really good points.  Sometimes I think I must have a long ways to go in terms of communication skills, because it sure seems like I'm talking to a wall most of the time :)

---

If you want to be effective, you must work in harmony with the nature of whatever medium you are working with, not against it -- unless you have discovered how to break the laws of nature ::)  :)

Since the medium we must work with in order to effect social change is the human organism, it follows that our actions and communications must absolutely be in harmony with human nature in order to be effective.

From that it follows that by carefully observing, understanding, and applying the laws of human nature, one exponentially inceases one's odds of being effective, as well as one's overall degree of effectiveness.  That is pretty absolute.

At least one point you made is well worth repeating: Premature action can be worse than no action at all, since you tip your hand and reveal your cards.  I would add that rushing blindly into action, meaning without careful forethought, usually results in unintentional self-defeat, even without revealing your cards.  That is because your odds of being on target are pretty damn slim when you don't even know the nature of your target :)
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Bald Eagle on January 20, 2008, 03:25 PM NHFT
You sound like you're hungering for that time.  Do you have any idea what war is really like?  Why would you ever want it?

I know what the constant fear of living in a police state (NJ) is, and I know how authoritarian demands to lick their boots poison the soul.  I know the weight of the chains that traitors in our government place upon us with tax upon tax and rule upon regulation. 

I've watched enough war movies, news footage, and internet video of actual killings to have a vague idea of what war might be like. 

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."
"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security"

I hold to those Rights and duties.  I plan to free myself from the chains of slavery.
War is between governments. 

"It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
No one said anything about war. 
Claire just has practical ideas about what to do with snakes, weasels, and parasites.

Why would you ever want to go on living like a slave and watching while everyone else is enslaved?
Today's meager amount of freedom was bought with blood.  I don't yearn for more, I just acknowledge the price that was paid and accept the realistic probability of paying the same price.

Unless you want to watch while the jackboot stomps on our human faces forever.
Criminals are criminals.  Self defense is morally justifiable. 
I simply don't recoil from a distasteful task when the two intersect.
Apathy, cowardice, and "pacifism" has resulted in incomprehensible numbers of people being murdered by their own governments.  Not just murdered - shamed, degraded, tortured, mutilated, broken, and discarded like trash.  Why is it wrong to want to make sure that doesn't happen again, here?
Why is it better to wait until the cattle cars are on their way to the crematoria?

I never want it to get to that point, and I'm here trying to make sure that they never push it that far ... BUT WHAT IF THEY DO?!

WHAT IF THEY DO, KAT?  THEN WHAT?  I never see that question get answered.
Ever.  So it's pointless to have this "discussion" again.

I want to live in a world full of fun, loving people like you and Russell and Jim and Lauren and Roger and everyone else.  I give freely of my time and labor and wealth to try and create a society where that can be possible.  I just don't shut my eyes to the fact that predators and outright monsters have to be dealt with to have that kind of world.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: kola on January 20, 2008, 03:57 PM NHFT
IMO (and it may not be the opinon of others here), Bald Eagle always presents interesting (logical and simplistic) comments.

Personally I am stuck in the middle of both positions. (violent vs non violent)

I would love to get "change" peacefully but as it becomes fruitless what will be the actually "breaking point" to resort to other means of action?

From my first experiences that brought about my awareness of this "police state/nazi presence" it has only gotten worse. And in the last 2 years it has escalated to the point where it is out of control.

What are the options? Continue to fight peacefully and continue to get the same results? Or maybe change our methods of peace and civil dis? and if so, how can we do it and be more effective? In the meantime IMO, the police state warriors are winning the battles.

Once the commonfolk are backed into a corner, poked, prodded, beaten and killed, their options become reduced to only two choices,..... submit or fight in self defense.

Personally, I choose peace over violence...but there may come a tipping point that will change my position.

If this post in unacceptable for this forum I will respectfully understand if it is deleted.

Kola   

   

Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 20, 2008, 06:00 PM NHFT
Personally, I choose peace over violence...but there may come a tipping point that will change my position.

That's an amusing statement from someone who's notion of armed self-defense is to carry a weapon only practically suitable for sneaking up and murdering someone.

In the meanwhile, people like Bald Eagle and I will own and carry effective means of self-defense, and hope not to need them.  I know for a fact that I will not hesitate if the need arises.  Until such time happens (again), I will continue to be as gentle a person as I can be.

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: KBCraig on January 20, 2008, 08:30 PM NHFT
The natural, spontaneous response to any perceived attack on one's self, including one's personal honor, is self-defense.  This is true even for individuals who do not understand or respect the equal sovereignty of others, such as cops.  Perhaps an extremely mature individual would consciously override this impulse, and give it some rational thought -- but my experience is that most people are quite reactionary, especially government stooges.

When you condemn a person, he may think "What an asshole" or "What a moron", but never "Gee, maybe he's right -- I am a bad person.  I should change myself".

It's interesting that police are taught to use specific language when approaching people, in order to defuse anger and/or deflect the anger away from the officer.

For example, if you're pulled over for speeding, a cop who sticks to his training will say:
"The reason for this stop today is excessive speed."

He will not say either "I" or "you".

If he says, "I stopped you because..." it leads the driver to automatically blame the cop. If he says, "You were stopped because... " it is an accusation and creates defensiveness. In both cases tension and hostility go up.

The rather odd phrase that they're taught to use doesn't roll naturally off the tongue (which is why too many fall away from using it), and it also doesn't sound quite right to the ear. It requires actual processing by the brain, instead of hitting any number of hot buttons.

Just thought I'd toss in that little bit about the psychology of language.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 21, 2008, 12:38 PM NHFT
Thank you, KB!

It has long seemed to me that the agents of force (both police and politicians) have a deeper than average understanding of human nature, and apply it liberally to manipulate the public.  This is the first time I have actually received hard evidence of this.

This is not rocket science, however.  Human nature is quite easily understood through careful observation, and the application of its laws is the most powerful tool we have.

Since the natural state of the human organism is a sovereign individual, it yearns for freedom (at a subconscious level), just as a wild bird in a cage yearns to be set free.  Our captors actually use the powerful knowledge of human nature to keep their captives pacified in the unnatural captive state

Imagine how much more powerful the same knowledge is when applied toward setting humans free!
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: John Edward Mercier on January 21, 2008, 02:38 PM NHFT
The last time I was stopped (october). The officer said 'Do you know why I stopped you?'
So it must not be universally trained.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: David on January 22, 2008, 10:44 PM NHFT
Statism is an idea.  You cannot kill an idea. 
It is a fantasy to believe that a very small minority, (libertarian leaning folks) will ever be able to control an armed uprising.  Republican leaning statists or Democrat leaning statists will control any rebellion, and we will still be in the same shit we are in now, except with an overwhelming sense of fear and hostility that comes from war. 
This is the headquarters of the Non violent revolution, I'd like to keep it that way please.  Thank You. 

Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on January 23, 2008, 08:08 AM NHFT
IMO (and it may not be the opinon of others here), Bald Eagle always presents interesting (logical and simplistic) comments.

Personally I am stuck in the middle of both positions. (violent vs non violent)

I would love to get "change" peacefully but as it becomes fruitless what will be the actually "breaking point" to resort to other means of action?

From my first experiences that brought about my awareness of this "police state/nazi presence" it has only gotten worse. And in the last 2 years it has escalated to the point where it is out of control.

What are the options? Continue to fight peacefully and continue to get the same results? Or maybe change our methods of peace and civil dis? and if so, how can we do it and be more effective? In the meantime IMO, the police state warriors are winning the battles.

Once the commonfolk are backed into a corner, poked, prodded, beaten and killed, their options become reduced to only two choices,..... submit or fight in self defense.

Personally, I choose peace over violence...but there may come a tipping point that will change my position.

If this post in unacceptable for this forum I will respectfully understand if it is deleted.

Kola   

   



Boy!  You're on the bubble with that radical stuff!  Better watch out!  I had my finger on the button!  ;D
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Bald Eagle on January 23, 2008, 08:10 AM NHFT
Statism is an idea.  You cannot kill an idea. 

The Vogons did.

And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, a girl sitting on her own in a small café in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything.

Sadly, however, before she could get to a phone to tell anyone about it, a terrible, stupid catastrophe occurred, and the idea was lost forever.


It is a fantasy to believe that a very small minority, (libertarian leaning folks) will ever be able to control an armed uprising.  Republican leaning statists or Democrat leaning statists will control any rebellion, and we will still be in the same shit we are in now, except with an overwhelming sense of fear and hostility that comes from war. 

We weren't discussing control, armed uprisings, rebellions, or war.
We were discussing what happens when THEY come through your door at 3am to initiate violence against you because they (don't) have a (no-knock) warrant for someone, and they don't really care if it's actually you or even if they're at the right address.  They might even beat you for a while with lead-weighted gloves or strike you across the face a few times with the butt of a rifle just for fun before they protect and serve you with some dislocated joints and compound fractures and then end every idea you ever had with something chambered in 10mm Jackboot.

http://www.elitetacticalsources.com/prodimages/Tactical%20Entry%20and%20Rsecue%20Tools/Lbhdegb.jpeg

This is the headquarters of the Non violent revolution, I'd like to keep it that way please.  Thank You. 

Great.  Tell THEM that.  Let me know how it all works out for you.

I'm right there with you on plan A, it's unfortunate that too many folks here don't believe in Plan B, I'll do what I can for you when it comes to Plan C, and I just like to give a thought or two to Plan D before it's a Thoughtcrime to do so.

Planning to be prepared for a disaster is not plotting the disaster itself.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 23, 2008, 01:00 PM NHFT
Planning to be prepared for a disaster is not plotting the disaster itself.

 :clap:
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: David on January 23, 2008, 10:58 PM NHFT
Quote<We were discussing what happens when THEY come through your door at 3am to initiate violence against you because they (don't) have a (no-knock) warrant for someone, and they don't really care if it's actually you or even if they're at the right address.  They might even beat you for a while with lead-weighted gloves or strike you across the face a few times with the butt of a rifle just for fun before they protect and serve you with some dislocated joints and compound fractures and then end every idea you ever had with something chambered in 10mm Jackboot.>

All true.  But if I defend myself, they will with certainty kill me.  Slowly as they attempted with Cory Maye, or quickly as they did with Kathrine Johnston.
Most statists are not evil.  The legacy I want is on of sustained peace.  I too am tired of begging for my freedom, but killing to get it is not the answer.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Caleb on January 23, 2008, 11:43 PM NHFT

Quote
Most statists are not evil.  The legacy I want is on of sustained peace.  I too am tired of begging for my freedom, but killing to get it is not the answer. 

 :clap:  It's amazing how often we try to portray those with different viewpoints as the epitome of evil.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 24, 2008, 09:46 AM NHFT
Planning to be prepared for a disaster is not plotting the disaster itself.

You are so utterly wrong.

The pacifists have converted me!

I'm going to go throw out all my fire extinguishers, so that I will never have a house fire! ::)

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 24, 2008, 09:47 AM NHFT
Quote
Most statists are not evil.  The legacy I want is on of sustained peace.  I too am tired of begging for my freedom, but killing to get it is not the answer. 
:clap:  It's amazing how often we try to portray those with different viewpoints as the epitome of evil.

Yeah, I don't know anyone who would call libertarians monsters, or anything like that! ::)

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: watershed on January 25, 2008, 01:33 PM NHFT
IMO (and it may not be the opinon of others here), Bald Eagle always presents interesting (logical and simplistic) comments.

Personally I am stuck in the middle of both positions. (violent vs non violent)

I would love to get "change" peacefully but as it becomes fruitless what will be the actually "breaking point" to resort to other means of action?

From my first experiences that brought about my awareness of this "police state/nazi presence" it has only gotten worse. And in the last 2 years it has escalated to the point where it is out of control.

What are the options? Continue to fight peacefully and continue to get the same results? Or maybe change our methods of peace and civil dis? and if so, how can we do it and be more effective? In the meantime IMO, the police state warriors are winning the battles.

Once the commonfolk are backed into a corner, poked, prodded, beaten and killed, their options become reduced to only two choices,..... submit or fight in self defense.

Personally, I choose peace over violence...but there may come a tipping point that will change my position.

If this post in unacceptable for this forum I will respectfully understand if it is deleted.

Kola   

   


violent vs non violent
defence is primary, however, work within the system with a natural leadership that encorages others to lean toward libertarian decisions or you can isolate yourself and live peacfully!
 the FSP is not the first movement to attemp building a Utopian community. The Shakers did it in the past and were successful for a time ...their down fall was the fact that they did not believe in PROCREATION SEX WAS BANNED!
 as long as we multiply with good pure values allowing our children to develope naturally we will prevail!

KOLA take adeep breath ....and participate in local decisions, don't fear the cops....they are local men and women trying to earn a pay...if you treat them with respect it WILL be reciprocated. stay clean and work hard and have faith in yourself to control your destiny and the fruits of your labors will be reaped in time
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: David on January 28, 2008, 12:08 PM NHFT
Quote<KOLA take adeep breath ....and participate in local decisions, don't fear the cops....they are local men and women trying to earn a pay...if you treat them with respect it WILL be reciprocated. stay clean and work hard and have faith in yourself to control your destiny and the fruits of your labors will be reaped in time>

This idea helps keep me grounded.  I agree with your sentiments.   :)
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Caleb on January 28, 2008, 12:24 PM NHFT
Quote<KOLA take adeep breath ....and participate in local decisions, don't fear the cops....they are local men and women trying to earn a pay...if you treat them with respect it WILL be reciprocated. stay clean and work hard and have faith in yourself to control your destiny and the fruits of your labors will be reaped in time>

This idea helps keep me grounded.  I agree with your sentiments.   :)

When did you start smoking crack, David?   ;)
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 28, 2008, 01:10 PM NHFT
Quote<KOLA take adeep breath ....and participate in local decisions, don't fear the cops....they are local men and women trying to earn a pay...if you treat them with respect it WILL be reciprocated. stay clean and work hard and have faith in yourself to control your destiny and the fruits of your labors will be reaped in time>

This idea helps keep me grounded.  I agree with your sentiments.   :)

When did you start smoking crack, David?   ;)

C'mon Caleb... get with the program.  The police are your friends, okay?  After all, they are just doing their job! :icon_pirat:

Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 28, 2008, 01:24 PM NHFT
It is true that one can (and should) minimize the harm done to oneself by police by carefully monitoring and controlling one's attitude and behavior during an encounter.  Police are just as reactionary as anyone else, if not more so, hence their behavior can be very much influenced by one's own attitude and behavior.

Police indeed do what they do for the purpose of earning a living.  That in no way lets them off the hook for routinely violating individual rights using the excuse that they are "just doing their job".  All police fall into one of two categories: Either they fail to exert the conscious thought required to identify the criminal nature of their chosen job, or they do recognize it and don't care.  Either way, their criminal actions are highly irresponsible and reprehensible.

It pays to keep everything in perspective as much as possible :)
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: David on January 28, 2008, 03:11 PM NHFT
Quote<KOLA take adeep breath ....and participate in local decisions, don't fear the cops....they are local men and women trying to earn a pay...if you treat them with respect it WILL be reciprocated. stay clean and work hard and have faith in yourself to control your destiny and the fruits of your labors will be reaped in time>

This idea helps keep me grounded.  I agree with your sentiments.   :)

When did you start smoking crack, David?   ;)
??? 
It is a hope that I have.  I'm pessimistic enough as it is, don't rain on my parade.   :)
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: kola on January 28, 2008, 03:13 PM NHFT
Those people that are "just doing their jobs" are killling, torturing and harassing  innocent commonfolk. They are not "friends" of mine not do I care to become their freinds. I would love to convince them to see things differently but they aint gonna happen either.

sorry, no justifications.

action reaction. live by sword die by sword.

Its was a cool ideaand a nice gesture but nobodys life got saved by sticking a flower in the end of a gun (ie at Kent State U on May 4th.)

there are choices: try to change people..... fight..... or run.


Kola
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: watershed on January 28, 2008, 11:18 PM NHFT
Ive lived here in nh my whole life, i know cops and guards and co's, there are a few distinct asswholes who mess with people for fun but in most cases its not something other officers want to be around either.
I personally knew this co who would take the clothes from a particular inmate and woulD make hiM walk around naked and then throw H2O on him when he slept, or would raid his cell at random, he was a dick!! and got fired. You maybe know some guy from hs who was insecure so hed join police explorers and become a worse ass than some street punks....its all about leadership in each town or city. i have had military training with interrogation tactics.....i aint scared. its all mental, light "torture" is temporary discomfort the key is DON'T GET CAUGHT!


i I ve also met guys who've been to prison and they worry more of each other than co's. If a criminal brags about his time, then he aint a very good thief....DONT'T GET CAUGHT!
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on January 29, 2008, 08:16 AM NHFT
You maybe know some guy from hs who was insecure so hed join police explorers and become a worse ass than some street punks.

That’s how it works in general. Dumb bastards get into street gangs; smart bastards get into the government.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: srqrebel on January 29, 2008, 11:31 AM NHFT
i have had military training with interrogation tactics.....i aint scared. its all mental, light "torture" is temporary discomfort the key is DON'T GET CAUGHT!

Amen bro!

Our own internal fears are our worst enemies.  It is extremely important to replace fear with courage wherever possible.
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: watershed on January 29, 2008, 03:45 PM NHFT
By being a "GOOD BOYS" we can lower the demand for police officers. Basic economics supply and demand, low crime supply...less police demand! presto-peace on eath!(?)
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 29, 2008, 03:48 PM NHFT
By being a "GOOD BOYS" we can lower the demand for police officers. Basic economics supply and demand, low crime supply...less police demand! presto-peace on eath!(?)

LOL.  Every time crime goes down, they make more things illegal, to drive crime back up.

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: watershed on January 29, 2008, 03:49 PM NHFT
Those bastards...someone should do something!
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 29, 2008, 03:53 PM NHFT
Those bastards...someone should do something!

Easy... eliminate everything except the first five words of the First Amendment.

Problem solved, right? :)

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: watershed on January 29, 2008, 04:09 PM NHFT
the problem with democracy is that in a group, if you have a handful of people with great vision and problem solving skills, and a majority, who is unwilling to be teamplayers because they're afraid of making any descisions (or because of stubborn pride, or ignorance ect) those good resouces go to shit!
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 30, 2008, 12:14 PM NHFT
Planning to be prepared for a disaster is not plotting the disaster itself.

 :clap:

your attitude and actions are effected by what you think about
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 30, 2008, 12:16 PM NHFT
By being a "GOOD BOYS" we can lower the demand for police officers. Basic economics supply and demand, low crime supply...less police demand! presto-peace on eath!(?)
they are adding more cops to control us not to protect us from crime
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Bald Eagle on January 30, 2008, 02:09 PM NHFT
your attitude and actions are effected by what you think about
[/quote]

_A_ffected.

1. If I'm already prepared for an emergency, then I tend not to think about it a whole lot because I'm secure in the knowledge that I'm ahead of the game.

2. If I know that a disaster is closer to probable than being just merely possible, and I haven't prepared for it, I will likely have it on my mind, because I will be worried about not being prepared for it.

I'm way mellower being secure and prepared than if I were unprepared, or if someone were threatening my security. 

People die every single day.  Lots of people.  I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it.  If lots of bad people died - let's say in a country that I lived in, or even the same town, I can't really say that I'd give any more of a rat's ass about them than I do about some poor schmuck who just bought the farm in Khazikistan.  People dying doesn't really bother me - it's a natural part of life, and must just be all part of God's plan.  It bothers me a whole lot less when the people doing the dying are fascist tyrants who make good people's lives miserable.  It's not real hard to understand, and I generally don't think about it at all until some fascist tyrant starts doing something that begins to threaten me personally, either directly, or indirectly.

I think the simple fact that some people are still walking this earth unscathed speaks volumes about my judgment and level of restraint. 
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: dalebert on January 30, 2008, 02:27 PM NHFT
I think the simple fact that some people are still walking this earth unscathed speaks volumes about my judgment and level of restraint. 

 :biglaugh:

Good point!
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 30, 2008, 04:28 PM NHFT
I think the simple fact that some people are still walking this earth unscathed speaks volumes about my judgment and level of restraint. 
:biglaugh:

Good point!

Indeed.  Bill hasn't killed anyone in at least six hours! :)

I still find it amusing that the most heavily-armed place on the planet isn't some daily bloodbath, despite the wishes of pacifists that it become such.

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on January 30, 2008, 04:45 PM NHFT
I don't think it is as much about wishes than expectations.  Did Bill really say that he is mellow? :o
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 30, 2008, 04:48 PM NHFT
I don't think it is as much about wishes than expectations.  Did Bill really say that he is mellow? :o

I didn't say all pacifists.  I can think of plenty of "pacifists" who do actually wish that this place would turn into the bloodbath that their pointy little heads imagine that an armed society must be...

And Bill said "mellower" :)

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 30, 2008, 04:55 PM NHFT
I still find it amusing that the most heavily-armed place on the planet isn't some daily bloodbath
Where is that?

Lovely NH, last I checked.

Referring to places of appreciable size, of course.  I expect the average police station is more heavily-armed than NH, but that's hardly what was intended by the statement.

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on January 30, 2008, 04:55 PM NHFT
I don't think it is as much about wishes than expectations.  Did Bill really say that he is mellow? :o

I didn't say all pacifists.  I can think of plenty of "pacifists" who do actually wish that this place would turn into the bloodbath that their pointy little heads imagine that an armed society must be...

And Bill said "mellower" :)

Joe

Implies some degree  of mellow during  some amount of time. I'm guessing it is during sleep ;D
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: MaineShark on January 30, 2008, 05:34 PM NHFT
OK, you are talking about semi-auto firearms.

Armament in general.

Particularly small arms, but I do know someone who owns a AA gun.

Joe
Title: Re: Making Statists REALLY Uncomfortable in NH
Post by: watershed on January 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
How could anyone disagree that NH is one of the most peaceful places on earth, that is why you all came!
that is why i refuse to live anywhere else.... OK maybe isolated in the north west but this is my home.