http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMliyeIDp4
An event like this would be a good place to market the benefits of the "Free" State.
June 21st looks to be the tentative date.
Paul who?
2 things are obvious:
one..the elites/msm will not allow RP to make a serious presence...even if there is/was one.
two...almost ALL amerikans are just too fuckin stupid.
I am very disappointed in "people"..young and old.
Kola
Hmm.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on February 12, 2008, 11:09 AM NHFT
Paul who?
I don't know... Is he an entertainer on one of those televised singing competitions?
A march on Washington would take place after the primaries. It would be a good opportunity to demonstrate how many of us are disenchanted with the national government. Realizing that many anti-political types aren't hugely evangelical, this could still be a good opportunity to advance your views among disappointed political types attending the march.
QuoteIt would be a good opportunity to demonstrate how many of us are disenchanted with the national government.
yeah..maybe we could get a thousand people. ::)
a march in the streets? "Big police state" would lick their chops at that idea.
holed up,
Kola
Paul rallies in Philly drew 5,000+ people.
I'd rather peacefully resist than remain afraid and irrelevant. Silent acceptance gives them cover and legitimacy.
Action is transformative. IMO, this event is more for the participants than the potential spectators.
Quote from: kola on February 12, 2008, 11:25 AM NHFT
one..the elites/msm will not allow RP to make a serious presence...even if there is/was one.
The media only cares about it being entertaining. If the march makes for good news, it will be on the media.
As far as the elites go, they are supposedly made up of many different industries, right? So they too greatly benefit by government ending. Finally they will be able to make billions and billions of dollars improving our lives.
Quote from: kola on February 12, 2008, 11:25 AM NHFT
two...almost ALL amerikans are just too fuckin stupid.
I totally disagree. If you told every person you knew about Ron Paul, I bet most would be convinced of liberty given enough time. It's the right theory, it makes sense, so people inevitably grasp it. Those that don't won't be around in the next generation after anarchy has taken hold.
Quote from: kola on February 12, 2008, 11:25 AM NHFT
I am very disappointed in "people"..young and old.
Most people are reasonable, they just take varying amounts of time to learn that anarcho-capitalism really is the best way to organize society.
Quote from: picaro on February 12, 2008, 12:33 PM NHFT
Paul rallies in Philly drew 5,000+ people.
Wow, this is great news then. If even a percentage have the ability and desire to move to NH, this is great news for the FSP.
Quote from: picaro on February 12, 2008, 12:33 PM NHFT
I'd rather peacefully resist than remain afraid and irrelevant. Silent acceptance gives them cover and legitimacy.
Showing that liberty lovers don't need to be in the closet is vital to our success.
Quote from: picaro on February 12, 2008, 12:33 PM NHFT
Action is transformative. IMO, this event is more for the participants than the potential spectators.
Everyone benefits, just like in a totally free market!
QuoteThe media only cares about it being entertaining. If the march makes for good news, it will be on the media.
You dont understand.
The media is controlled by the elites.
QuoteAs far as the elites go, they are supposedly made up of many different industries, right? So they too greatly benefit by government ending. Finally they will be able to make billions and billions of dollars improving our lives
improving OUR lives? are you serious??
buying a plasma TV on a credit card is not "improving our lives"
BTW its not about money.,,,its about control.
Quote from: kola on February 12, 2008, 11:25 AM NHFT
two...almost ALL amerikans are just too fuckin stupid.
I am very disappointed in "people"..young and old.
Kola
so are you going to march?
Quote from: Russell Kanning on February 12, 2008, 06:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on February 12, 2008, 11:25 AM NHFT
two...almost ALL amerikans are just too fuckin stupid.
I am very disappointed in "people"..young and old.
Kola
so are you going to march?
At least in the sixties, almost every single college kid had some balls and protested....what are they doing now?
even at my young age (many moons ago) I participated in war protests and we had organized "sit ins" in school where many of us walked out of class and sat in the hallways and refused to move.
If this "march" even happens..I will be there. Has it even been confirmed?
How about you Russell?
Kola
I will not be there.
A march solely in D.C. is a silly idea, in my opinion. I certainly won't be there, as it would involve days of driving (I refuse to fly), hundreds of dollars which could be better spent or donated, etc.
Nationwide local marches on city halls would seem like a better idea, except for the matter of the MSM not being likely to take note.
I've participated in a number of marches in DC(some 5000+.) The media rarely mentions them, always picks the least coherent person available to represent them, and always underreports the numbers. But picaro is right, action is transformative, for the individual. Just don't expect it to transform anyone or anything else.
That said, I live easy driving distance (35min) from DC. If anyone decides to come down I can offer crash space, or lunch.
cool
imo it would be more effective to have city marches on the same day.
make sure you wear your best face as your picture will be taken and filed in your spyfile datbase by the local nazis.
kola
I've never hidden my face. I marched with black block types, I wasn't one of them.
From what I've heard from others, Washington is well prepared for marchers. You can expect to be herded like cattle through crowd control barriers and a heavy police presence. At one anti-war march on the capitol a NPR reporter was roughed up by police. If you have a camera expect it to be targeted and smashed by police.
A national march on a different target (of perhaps historical significance) might have better results.
There is more power in socially organized masses on the march than there is in guns in the hands of a few desperate men. Our enemies would prefer to deal with a small armed group than with a huge, unarmed but resolute mass of people.
--Martin Luther King
Quote from: picaro on February 15, 2008, 09:32 AM NHFT
There is more power in socially organized masses on the march than there is in guns in the hands of a few desperate men. Our enemies would prefer to deal with a small armed group than with a huge, unarmed but resolute mass of people.
--Martin Luther King
...and far greater power in individuals everywhere outright rejecting the notion of "external authority" that underpins the Authoritarian Model Of Government.
Appeal to the AMOG, and you enslave yourself deeper
regardless of intent.
Withdraw yourself from the AMOG, and direct your appeal solely at the masses, and you begin to move decisively in the direction of freedom.
---
So
no thank you, I won't be in Washington appealing to the AMOG for
my salvation.
Quote from: picaro on February 15, 2008, 09:32 AM NHFT
There is more power in socially organized masses on the march than there is in guns in the hands of a few desperate men. Our enemies would prefer to deal with a small armed group than with a huge, unarmed but resolute mass of people.
--Martin Luther King
Nice quote. What is the purpose of the march?
The pupose?
Ron Paul said he wants to see just how many people are REALLY behind him.
Even if people want to attend, many cant' afford to take time off work and/or do not have the money to make the trip. Some would have to drive/fly 3000 miles. We have all been so bound by their slavery that it makes it difficult to miss a days pay. Who has a savings account anymore? Not many.
I think Ron Pauls weakest link is his campaign staff. I am all for the march and I will be there if it all goes down. But I am 99% sure it will be re-routed very quickly (and blocaded) by the goons and then turned into a riot situation by agent provocateurs.
On the upside, it may be a great piece of history... maybe end up like Ohio State U in the 60's with deaths and bloodshed. Sometimes thats what it takes to awaken the sheeple. Its hard to sweep dead bodies and blood under the carpets.
Kola
I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
What is the purpose of the march?
The purpose has not been fully articulated. Any march should be about more than just Ron Paul and his campaign. In the past, RP has put emphasis on the idea of liberty and de-emphasized his cult of personality.
I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
Most marches don't achieve anything external except a slightly larger profile in the public consciousness. Civil rights marches went on for years without incident.
However, you should not overlook the internal changes to the activists themselves. This experience, like mountain climbing, could be enhanced by its difficulty and expense. The opportunity to for fond memories, good stories, and adventure should not be neglected.
Washington may be the wrong place for such a march. Libertarians may be the wrong people to march. They are better practiced at nihilism and pointless contrarianism than taking affirmative stands.
Under the right conditions, mass public demonstrations have sparked off sweeping changes. I'd rather march than forever ponder whether the pre-conditions for change have been met. Hell, I've got nothing else planned for that Saturday afternoon.
Post pictures from the event. :)
Quote from: picaro on February 15, 2008, 01:22 PM NHFT
In the past, RP has put emphasis on the idea of liberty and de-emphasized his cult of personality.
That would be cool :)
Quote from: kola on February 15, 2008, 12:59 PM NHFT
The pupose?
Ron Paul said he wants to see just how many people are REALLY behind him.
Even if people want to attend, many cant' afford to take time off work and/or do not have the money to make the trip. Some would have to drive/fly 3000 miles. We have all been so bound by their slavery that it makes it difficult to miss a days pay. Who has a savings account anymore? Not many.
I think Ron Pauls weakest link is his campaign staff. I am all for the march and I will be there if it all goes down. But I am 99% sure it will be re-routed very quickly (and blocaded) by the goons and then turned into a riot situation by agent provocateurs.
On the upside, it may be a great piece of history... maybe end up like Ohio State U in the 60's with deaths and bloodshed. Sometimes thats what it takes to awaken the sheeple. Its hard to sweep dead bodies and blood under the carpets.
Kola
DC is probably the safest city for such an event. They are used to having half a million + on the mall. The powers that be will not be interested in any "spectacles".
why the march? I answered it correctly but heres his quote: "to find out where the numbers are"
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/38032
Quote from: FTL_Ian on February 15, 2008, 01:02 PM NHFT
I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
I could not disagree more.
The march will not achieve its
stated goals... however, if a few dozen FSPers can get there with a bunch of FSP/RP flyers, the impact could be
huge.
its better than doing nothing.
unless you choose to escape the sytem entirely and non-comply.
but that as well has its consequences.
Kola
Quote from: d_goddard on February 15, 2008, 02:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on February 15, 2008, 01:02 PM NHFT
I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
I could not disagree more.
The march will not achieve its stated goals... however, if a few dozen FSPers can get there with a bunch of FSP/RP flyers, the impact could be huge.
Yes, that would be useful.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on February 15, 2008, 04:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: d_goddard on February 15, 2008, 02:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on February 15, 2008, 01:02 PM NHFT
I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
I could not disagree more.
The march will not achieve its stated goals... however, if a few dozen FSPers can get there with a bunch of FSP/RP flyers, the impact could be huge.
Yes, that would be useful.
i'd think you'd be all over this ian, for advertising purposes if nothing else
Quote from: picaro on February 15, 2008, 02:03 PM NHFT
I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
Most marches don't achieve anything external except a slightly larger profile in the public consciousness.
...
and that is one of the biggest reasons why I resolutely refuse to participate. That statement, coming from an astute freedom lover, of course requires an explanation. Whoever is honest enough to exert an open mind, keep reading:
Quote from: picaro on February 15, 2008, 02:03 PM NHFT
Under the right conditions, mass public demonstrations have sparked off sweeping changes.
Certainly. The most effective ones have even sparked
revolutions!
What has every revolution gotten us (even the American Revolution, so highly regarded by many freedom lovers)?
New boss, same as the old boss. We didn't start the fire...
but we tried to fight it. Good intentions, yes -- in fact, noble.
The fire now rages bigger than ever, consuming everything in its path.
One does not use fire to put out a flame. It just doesn't work.
You just don't get relief from the choking effect of government by appealing
to government.
Quote from: picaro on February 15, 2008, 02:03 PM NHFT
I'd rather march than forever ponder whether the pre-conditions for change have been met.
Would you build a house for yourself without making certain the pre-conditions for house-building have been met?
Would you sink your life savings into starting a business without making certain the pre-conditions for a successful business have been met?
Would you jump out of an airplane without making certain the pre-conditions for a safe jump have been met?
Would you opt to have children without making certain the pre-conditions for successful child rearing have been met?
Does it make sense to rush blindly into action, when
the future of the entire human race is at stake?
Quote from: kola on February 15, 2008, 02:24 PM NHFT
its better than doing nothing.
Here is the core fallacy.
Building a house without having a clue about soil stability, structural design, etc., is better than
doing nothing, right?
Sinking your life savings into a startup venture without having a clue about the market for your product, logistics, etc., is better than
doing nothing, right?
Jumping randomly out of an airplane without having a clue about parachutes, or skydiving, is better than
doing nothing, right?
Going ahead and having children without having a clue about birthing, child rearing, or whether you can swing the financial burden, is better than
doing nothing, right?
Taking blind action to spark sweeping changes in the world we live in, without having a clue about the final outcome of those actions, is better than
doing nothing, right?
Right?
Quote from: kola on February 15, 2008, 02:24 PM NHFT
unless you choose to escape the sytem entirely and non-comply.
Bingo!
Now you are spraying water on fire!
Quote from: kola on February 15, 2008, 02:24 PM NHFT
but that as well has its consequences.
Certainly it does. Being effective is not comfortable or easy.
If you want it badly enough,
the only thing that matters is that your actions are effective.
Back to the original quote (above):
A march on Washington will indeed effect "a slightly larger profile in the public consciousness".
Jumping out of an airplane randomly and cluelessly would also effect the desired exhilarating experience, wouldn't it?
But would the
final outcome be for better or for worse?
A march on Washington would expose more people to the message of freedom. That could only be a
good thing right?
Building a house with no structural integrity would result in a house to live in. That could only be a
good thing, right?
Exposing people to the message of freedom through a march on the seat of government, only spreads the faulty paradigm that government is the source of salvation -- "all we have to do is
appeal to it to save us from its grip".
Those "newly awoken" will end up wasting large chunks of limited time and other resources blindly prolonging the existence of the very thing they want to be free of.
And even worse, once in place,
that is a tenacious paradigm to overcome. Because now they are under the
impression that they have already awoken, when in fact they
have not.
So what are we to do... sit back and do nothing, and hope things work out?
Absolutely not!Unless you just don't want it badly enough to go the distance. In which case that is the better option.
By far.Because otherwise, you just end up making matters worse. Not just for everyone else who wants freedom, but
most importantly for yourself.
The strategic actions that will finally bring about an end to the Authoritarian Model of Government (AMOG), and spur the dawn of the Civilization of Peace and Prosperity, are these:
1) Withdraw all personal support and recognition from the AMOG.
2) Withdraw all personal support and recognition from the AMOG.
3) Withdraw all personal support and recognition from the AMOG.
4) Use all available media and internet resources to clearly articulate why you are doing it, and appeal only to the non-parasitic masses to do the same. Paint them a picture of the ultimate rewards of doing so -- freedom, peace, and prosperity -- in vivid
detail. Reframe the issues, change their paradigm. Vanish the illusions that form the basis of the AMOG.
Make certain your own actions reflect and illustrate the accurate paradigm of freedom.
5) Create, patronize, and promote viable alternatives to the services monopolized by the AMOG, wherever possible.
Each individual that truly
abandons the AMOG is dumping water on the fire. Don't let the fact that the fire is
way too big for one individual to put out, create the illusion that you are better off joining forces with those who use fire to fight fire.
You have three choices:
1) Use flames to put out the fire. -
Counterproductive2) Do nothing at all. -
Neutral3) Use water to put out the fire. -
ProductiveImagine what would happen if all who desire freedom just abandoned the AMOG. Just said a resounding "NO". And made it crystal clear
to the spectating masses why they are doing it.
People would start to think about things they never thought of before.
They would see the real source of the world's (their) problems: The Authoritarian Model Of Government itself.
They would start getting pissed off. At the
real source of the world's problems.
As more people start to see it and get pissed off, they spread the paradigm to others around them.
Some, perhaps many, of them would get hauled to jail for refusing to submit. That would piss off their loved ones... and get
them thinking even more.
Many of their loved ones would feel compelled to show their displeasure in the same way.
Think about it: What often happens when a very well-liked employee gets fired unfairly?
A mass walkout. Those coworkers don't care as much about their steady paycheck as they care about justice. I have observed this with my own eyes --
in fact participated in it on two occasions.
This is really powerful stuff, guys. Make no mistake about it.
Let them fill their jails with innocent. It can only serve to expose their evil core -- and hasten the spread of the new paradigm.
Ayn Rand had it wrong.
Jail is the real Galt's Gulch.
In today's world, when Atlas shrugs, he goes to jail. That's in fact better than mere shrugging -- not only do they no longer benefit from Atlas, now they have to provide for his continued existence.
Unless they want a fiery revolution on their hands. Because that is exactly what will happen in this particular geographic territory if they started executing the innocent -- like it or not.
Trust me, they do
not want a revolution. Revolutions do leave the system of oppression in place, but they just as surely have a tendency to topple those currently in power.
This places those who pose as 'government' in a catch-22. They can now only go in one direction: Retreat.
Into oblivion.
That is the thing I want to see happening. You can bet I am, and will be, taking resolute,
strategic action to make that happen. My aim is to make it attractive for others to follow suit. That requires careful design, both in terms of action and articulation.
Yet even if no one ever followed suit, my conscience will be clear knowing my actions will be
at least minimally productive by design, rather than counterproductive as a predictable result of deliberate blindness.
QuoteHere is the core fallacy.
Building a house without having a clue about soil stability, structural design, etc., is better than doing nothing, right?
And what are the options? freeze to death due to the lack of shelter??
Or build some half-assed shelter and take the risk? Building the half-assed shelter gives you and your family "a chance".
Kola
You tell 'em, Menno! ;D
Tell me menno, Do you know of anyone who has entirely escaped the system?
I admire your ideas (on paper) but to fully execute them and be successful is a whole new ballgame.
(ie The Browns, Randy Weaver etc)
And if marches and political activisim (non violent and violent revolutions) restore some (or all) freedom, would you reap those benefits as well? You would be OK with riding the coattails of others who fought and died for your freedom?
Kola
Tell me Menno, do you think the Vietnam war ending had anything to do with every college campus protesting?
Kola
srqrebel, I was pretty pissed about your Sununu protest at Liberty Forum, and haven't spent much time at this forum since, for that and other reasons. But I just read through this thread, looking for more info on the potential march on Washington, and have to admit that your manifesto(?) above is pretty thought-provoking. I also have been checking out Stefan Molyneux's writings recently, and while I whole-heartedly agree with some of it, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around other parts of it. If you can point me in the direction of more instructional material on these sorts of ideas, perhaps in time you can chalk me up as a convert. :o
What do you like about Sununu, Sandy? Because I have to admit that the willingness of so-called "freedom lovers" to hop in bed and whore themselves with Sununu was a key factor in making me realize that most of those in the FSP just really, truly, aren't on MY side. They are on the side of the bad guys.
And why do you say you support torture?
Kola, I think the point that Menno is trying to make is that when you cooperate with the system and work within it, you only strengthen its legitimacy. You might get rid of some onerous law, but you have done so only at the expense of making people think "Hey, the system works!"
The one valid idea that Ayn Rand had was this: The system can only be defeated by standing back, refusing to make it work, and letting it collapse on the weight of its own evil. When we try to make it work (by injecting some shred of human decency in a system that is inherently opposed to humanity) we increase it's legitimacy in the eyes of people who desperately need to see its true nature.
QuoteKola, I think the point that Menno is trying to make is that when you cooperate with the system and work within it, you only strengthen its legitimacy.
How is a march/protest "cooperating" with the sytem?
One is NOT cooperating with the sytem.
They are not "working within" but working against it. It's not putting gas on fire.
A bunch folks getting together and standing up for something is their "own doings". Sending a message a and saying "fuck you bastards" is better than hiding under a rock..which in this day in age is IMPOSSIBLE to do.
Caleb, if you are non par person, would you be OK with riding the coat-tails of the folks that marched and died for freedom?
Kola
Quote from: Friday on February 16, 2008, 11:42 AM NHFT
srqrebel, I was pretty pissed about your Sununu protest at Liberty Forum, and haven't spent much time at this forum since, for that and other reasons. But I just read through this thread, looking for more info on the potential march on Washington, and have to admit that your manifesto(?) above is pretty thought-provoking. I also have been checking out Stefan Molyneux's writings recently, and while I whole-heartedly agree with some of it, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around other parts of it. If you can point me in the direction of more instructional material on these sorts of ideas, perhaps in time you can chalk me up as a convert. :o
Wowie!
Have you read any of the voluntaryist stuff? http://voluntaryist.com
Molyneux has a bunch of videos, too
Adventures in Legal Land has good info, too http://adventuresinlegalland.com
It *IS* working within the system. It is asking the government to reconsider their actions. "Please, don't do this. It isn't humane." You are hoping that they do what you ask. The unstated belief of someone marching is that things would be better for them if the government was less evil, and that hopefully the government will choose to behave in a more benevolent way if we appeal to the decency of the people who run the government. But government by its nature is evil, and human decency cannot ultimately prevail under the reigning philosophy that some people ought to enforce their wills on the rest. Marching says, "please don't enforce your will on us" to a body whose very nature is to enforce its will. So it is counterproductive at best. And when apparently successful, it actually reinforces the belief that people have in its legitimacy. How many times have you heard people say, "See, the system works" when they believe justice has been served? How many times have you heard people who fervently disagree with the government beg people to work within the system to change things? How many times have you heard them fret about low voter turnout? The government wants people to invest in it, believe in it, feel that their voice is heard, because the one thing they can't suffer is you turning your back on it and giving up in it.
I am not free because anyone marched on Washington. I am not free because anybody joined some silly army and "fought" for my freedom. I am not free because some pretentious politician deigned to not completely shackle me. I am not free because I was born in the richest, most exploitative country in the world. I am free because I chose to be free.
Quote from: kola on February 16, 2008, 12:13 PM NHFT
Caleb, if you are non par person, would you be OK with riding the coat-tails of the folks that marched and died for freedom?
There seems to be near to a world of differene between those two activities you tried to link together.
If Ron Paul comes up with some freedom oriented goal of this, I think it'd be a good idea. The real audience of these sorts of things is not really the gov...it's 'the people'.
Quote from: Caleb on February 16, 2008, 12:25 PM NHFT
It *IS* working within the system. It is asking the government to reconsider their actions. "Please, don't do this. It isn't humane." You are hoping that they do what you ask. The unstated belief of someone marching is that things would be better for them if the government was less evil, and that hopefully the government will choose to behave in a more benevolent way if we appeal to the decency of the people who run the government. But government by its nature is evil, and human decency cannot ultimately prevail under the reigning philosophy that some people ought to enforce their wills on the rest. Marching says, "please don't enforce your will on us" to a body whose very nature is to enforce its will. So it is counterproductive at best. And when apparently successful, it actually reinforces the belief that people have in its legitimacy. How many times have you heard people say, "See, the system works" when they believe justice has been served? How many times have you heard people who fervently disagree with the government beg people to work within the system to change things? How many times have you heard them fret about low voter turnout? The government wants people to invest in it, believe in it, feel that their voice is heard, because the one thing they can't suffer is you turning your back on it and giving up in it.
I am not free because anyone marched on Washington. I am not free because anybody joined some silly army and "fought" for my freedom. I am not free because some pretentious politician deigned to not completely shackle me. I am not free because I was born in the richest, most exploitative country in the world. I am free because I chose to be free.
I have to disagree with your definitons and explanations. I guess we could get into symantics here..working within, working against etc.,,in the system, otta the system...just saying no..etc.
Whats YOUR defintion of "FREE" Caleb? This might be great question for everyone. One can be "free" in his mind but not "free" to do as he chooses. Is one really free? I am talking in more details of freedom to live as one sees fit without intrusion from others. Lauren was "free" in her mindset but was not free to leave jail.
I am talking about restoring FREEdom IN ALL ASPECTS. (mind body soul etc)..whether its with a march, a protest, handing out flyers, or defending myself).
Kola
Quote from: penguins4me on February 16, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on February 16, 2008, 12:13 PM NHFT
Caleb, if you are non par person, would you be OK with riding the coat-tails of the folks that marched and died for freedom?
There seems to be near to a world of differene between those two activities you tried to link together.
OK ie Ron Paul March in July turns into a bloody riot as copgoons attack first killing many commonfolk The commomers fight back and win. Yeah! It even brings the sheeple to rally with Ron Paul, he gets elected, takes office and cleans house.
There is no doubt Ron Paul will give every american more freedom. How would YOU feel if you did not participate in that bloody battle/march? Would you still take your newly found freedom that others died for while you sat and watched it unfold on the news in your comfy chair, beer in hand? Are you OK with that? I am sure you would be grateful towards those who died for your freedom but is that REALLY how it should be??
Kola
srqrebel:—I agree with most of what you say, and certainly your end goal. And I don't dispute that completely withdrawing one's support from the authoritarian model of government is one way to obtain freedom. However,—
Quote from: srqrebel on February 16, 2008, 11:16 AM NHFTLet them fill their jails with innocent. It can only serve to expose their evil core -- and hasten the spread of the new paradigm.
this is where you lose me. I believe in following a path to freedom that
doesn't allow for the government to commit increasing amounts of harm against people as we move along. Protesting and working to repeal bad laws moves us toward freedom and minimizes the harm that the government causes in the process. Yes, it also makes people think the system "works," but I'm not worried about this.
Why?
Because it also has the effect of getting our people closer to, and eventually
into, the system. And with enough people inside the system, we simply begin dismantling it. We start repealing
all the laws, winding the government down, until the final Act the Legislature passes is to dissolve itself.
Power corrupts? Sure, it corrupts some: people who secretly sought power to begin with, or people who are insecure and believe that power over others is a legitimate form of self-defense. I doubt this will be a problem with us liberty activists who have already pledged our lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor to the goal of achieving liberty in our lifetime.
I trust that while we system activists are doing this, people like you will be busy working outside the system to ease the transition to statelessness and to build the private institutions necessary to replace the functions of the State.
All we need for such a strategy to work is
283 activists in the Legislature.
Activities such as supporting Ron Paul, supporting "mainstream" Republicans against the Democrats, &c., &c., are utterly strategic in nature. One, politicians such as these will move us in the right direction until such time that we ourselves are actually inside the system. Our more extreme messages (
e.g., "privatize everything!") will become a lot more palatable to people. And two, using their campaigns to get the message out
is important: We bring people into the liberty fold via Constitutionalism or conservatism, and only
after they've woken up do we try to bring such newcomers all the way to anarchism. One has to get up, and step out the door, before one can cross the street.
So—
Can you tell me how such a strategy is incompatible with your methods or goals?
Do you believe it simply won't work for some reason I'm not seeing?
I want to say this differently, but every time I say it, it always comes out the same:
You cannot have external (socio/political) change without effecting internal change in the minds and hearts of people. You cannot trick and deceive your way to freedom.
If people liked your ideas, Ron Paul would be winning his primaries. The irony here is that if Ron Paul were capable of winning, it would be unnecessary that he run, because the people would naturally be demanding what he offers, and it wouldn't matter who was "in charge".
Strike the root. The root of our problems are IDEAS. Very bad ideas.
Or how 'bout this way of explaining it: You don't destroy the Ring of power by using it.
ya really didnt answer my questions tho' ;)
Kola
yeah, my answer was directed at jraxis.
I don't have an answer to your question, because I suspect it isn't possible to answer. Every word has both a dictionary definition, as well as emotional and spiritual connotations that are individual. I don't have a way to convey to you what "freedom" means to me, because there is so much nonverbal symbology attached to it. I can't put you in my mind. If you gave me a little while to analyze it and try to see what symbols my mind is using, I might be able to convey that to you, but even then it would be void of the emotional impact.
Lauren wasn't able to go where she wished, but her spirit was (and is) hers. No man can wield her thoughts where they will. She is her own master. Since our thoughts are who we really are, she is free, no matter what happens to her body. You are focusing too much on the external realities of who can "bear you where you do not wish" and failing to understand true freedom.
I ask it because it becomes a difficult question to answer.
I hope more people respond to it as well.
That IS what this forum is about isn't it? freedom?
Kola :)
Quote from: Caleb on February 16, 2008, 03:34 PM NHFT
You cannot have external (socio/political) change without effecting internal change in the minds and hearts of people. You cannot trick and deceive your way to freedom.
Who said anything about trickery or deceit? And affecting internal change in the minds and hearts of people is what I'm talking about. Remember the "Ron Paul cured my apathy" signs? Have you seen how many people have subsequently been turned onto the freestate movement by the Ron Paul campaign? Now we need to get these people all the way to anarchism.
Quote from: Caleb on February 16, 2008, 03:34 PM NHFT
If people liked your ideas, Ron Paul would be winning his primaries. The irony here is that if Ron Paul were capable of winning, it would be unnecessary that he run, because the people would naturally be demanding what he offers, and it wouldn't matter who was "in charge".
Winning the primary is completely unnecessary in order to get the message out to more people, which is one of the reasons that I clearly stated that I supported Ron Paul. Dr. Paul got several hundred thousand votes across the country. Plenty of people seem to like his ideas.
Hey, we still seem to have a government. Does this mean people don't like
your ideas?
Quote from: Caleb on February 16, 2008, 03:34 PM NHFT
You don't destroy the Ring of power by using it.
Someone at
AIYH had this to say about that:—
QuoteRon Paul **IS** Frodo. He's the one bearing the burden of taking the ring to be destroyed.
I would also contend that the strategy I outlined above—getting inside the power system in order to destroy it—would fit the Frodo analogy.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on February 16, 2008, 04:06 PM NHFT
Hey, we still seem to have a government. Does this mean people don't like your ideas?
Yes.
I am too weary to prolong another in vs out of the system debate. I will say this, though: as long as people keep looking to someone else for *the solution* we will not have freedom. When people take it on their own shoulders, then we will have the basis for true freedom to begin. I'm amused by all the Ron Paul is Savior themes that I see. He's a modern day Luke Skywalker/Frodo/Harry Potter/Jesus all in one kindly grandfatherly face.
You'll start to know freedom when you can honestly say, "I am Frodo"
Quote from: Caleb on February 16, 2008, 04:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on February 16, 2008, 04:06 PM NHFT
Hey, we still seem to have a government. Does this mean people don't like your ideas?
Yes.
Interesting that you answered the one piece that was meant to be rhetorical in that comment. I was trying to express how silly your gross generalization was, that Ron Paul's failures mean that "people" don't like the ideas.
Quote from: Caleb on February 16, 2008, 04:30 PM NHFT
I am too weary to prolong another in vs out of the system debate. I will say this, though: as long as people keep looking to someone else for *the solution* we will not have freedom. When people take it on their own shoulders, then we will have the basis for true freedom to begin. I'm amused by all the Ron Paul is Savior themes that I see. He's a modern day Luke Skywalker/Frodo/Harry Potter/Jesus all in one kindly grandfatherly face.
You'll start to know freedom when you can honestly say, "I am Frodo"
I don't see where we disagree here—I've said twice now, and I'll say a third time, I do not consider Ron Paul—or any other elected official—
the solution. I see the campaign as, at most, an opportunity for bringing people the freedom message. (During the campaign I was hopeful he'd win, or at least take second or third, in New Hampshire, but I didn't expect much more than that in terms of "wins.") As for other politicians who actually
do have a chance at winning an election (
e.g., state and local office candidates I've supported or plan to support), getting them into office isn't
the solution either: what they'll do while in office is simply a small step in the right direction.
Yeah, we who are trying to dismantle the system from within, and not be corrupted in the process—we're Frodo. :)
Caleb quote
QuoteWhen people take it on their own shoulders, then we will have the basis for true freedom to begin.
I am puzzled as you often use the word freedom but have yet to define it.
What is "true freedom"?
How can you talk about something that is non-defined?
Kola
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on February 16, 2008, 04:48 PM NHFT
I don't see where we disagree here—I've said twice now, and I'll say a third time, I do not consider Ron Paul—or any other elected official—the solution. I see the campaign as, at most, an opportunity for bringing people the freedom message. (During the campaign I was hopeful he'd win, or at least take second or third, in New Hampshire, but I didn't expect much more than that in terms of "wins.") As for other politicians who actually do have a chance at winning an election (e.g., state and local office candidates I've supported or plan to support), getting them into office isn't the solution either: what they'll do while in office is simply a small step in the right direction.
Yeah, we who are trying to dismantle the system from within, and not be corrupted in the process—we're Frodo. :)
Yeah, there are a lot of people who have not been as lucky(?) as we have, to have been exposed to libertarian philosophy of any kind and had the opportunity to weigh, then, accept or reject it. Ron Paul has a limited, national, microphone for the time being. Many people are hearing about sound money, non-intervention and non-nanny government for the first time because of the RP campaign.
I tried to tell you, I cannot explain it, because it is more than a word, it is a symbol, and you can't be in my mind. You are obsessing about this definition thing.
I don't know how to define it. All I know is that if you give me a word, any word, and I show you that the root of that word is a Greek.
Caleb, it not a difficult answer nor do I want to "get inside your head", bro.
ie
do you want to be able to do things and not suffer any penalties/ negative consequences? (btw I am just generalizing here so please don't say you want to be able to murder someone and get away with it) mm kay? ;)
do you want to be free to travel without papers?
do want to be free and avoid paying taxes?
do want to able to build a house without a permit?
do you want to be able to buy a weapon without having it registered?
these IMO are just examples of "freedom".
When seaching and striving for freedom what is it that you want to avoid and what is it that you want to achieve?
Kola
Quote from: kola on February 16, 2008, 05:39 PM NHFT
do you want to be able to do things and not suffer any penalties/ negative consequences? (btw I am just generalizing here so please don't say you want to be able to murder someone and get away with it) mm kay? ;)
do you want to be free to travel without papers?
do want to be free and avoid paying taxes?
do want to able to build a house without a permit?
do you want to be able to buy a weapon without having it registered?
My definition of freedom is basically, within the bounds of the non-aggression principle,
Do as thou wilt. All of your examples are simply specific cases thereof.
Caleb:—You've probably heard
DILIGE ET QVOD VIS FAC before, no? Does that work as a definition of freedom for you?
they are just examples.... in hopes that caleb can define what he is in search of.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on February 16, 2008, 06:32 PM NHFT
Caleb:—
You've probably heard DILIGE ET QVOD VIS FAC before, no? Does that work as a definition of freedom for you?
A little St. Augustine for me, eh? ;) Yes, it mostly does work, in fact. Augustine, by the way, was a Platonist.
I think it goes beyond that, though. I've been paying attention a lot lately to the *way* that I think, which I never paid much attention to before. And I've noticed that my mind will play a series of images which coalesce into a single nameless thought. This happens quickly so that I'm almost not aware of it, and sometimes the pictures merge. With freedom, I see a large shadow looming ... a helmetless boy conqueror wielding a sword and standing with his foot on his helmet, his long hair flowing in victory. I see a bird flying so high it can see everything below. There may be more. All this sort of coalesces into a single image: Freedom is beyond any single thing that you can do. It transcends that. It's about the source: fear. And that's all tied into love, yes, because love is fear's antidote. FDR said we had nothing to fear but fear itself. I think that's true because we can only be controlled through fear. So freedom is about freedom from fear. And lots of love.
For some reason, I also keep playing Shakespeare's line: This above all, to thine own self be true and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man. I'm not sure what that has to do with freedom, but it feels like freedom to me, and my mind associates these two.
I'm finding that these pictorial associations are very valuable in understanding truths that remain beyond my rational thought process.
FDR sold us down the river like most other amerikan presidents.
Caleb, can't you answer my questions? or do you choose to avoid them?
Kola
I gave you the best answer I could give you. If you don't like it, that's not my problem. You asked what I wanted to be free of. I said "fear". That's the best definition I can give you. Is it complete? Hell no. But how the hell am I supposed to have the answers to everything? ;) I've already told you that I don't think precise communication is possible. you'll have to cope with that reality.
Quote from: srqrebel on February 16, 2008, 11:16 AM NHFT
...
You can bet I am, and will be, taking resolute, strategic action to make that happen. My aim is to make it attractive for others to follow suit.
Fuck yeah; awesome post!
Quote from: Friday on February 16, 2008, 11:42 AM NHFT
srqrebel, I was pretty pissed about your Sununu protest at Liberty Forum, and haven't spent much time at this forum since, for that and other reasons. But I just read through this thread, looking for more info on the potential march on Washington, and have to admit that your manifesto(?) above is pretty thought-provoking. I also have been checking out Stefan Molyneux's writings recently, and while I whole-heartedly agree with some of it, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around other parts of it. If you can point me in the direction of more instructional material on these sorts of ideas, perhaps in time you can chalk me up as a convert. :o
http://book.FreeKeene.com
QuoteYeah, we who are trying to dismantle the system from within, and not be corrupted in the process—we're Frodo.
No. You are Boromir. Or possibly Denethor. Frodo *never* wielded the ring. He did put it on (on one occasion accidentally) which I think was actually a literary flaw because it confuses the analogy. But he always understood intuitively that the ring could not be destroyed by wielding it.
for the record .... I think that if anyone wants to join the Ron Paul march on Washington ... they will be promoting more freedom.
Marching on washington might not be striking the root, but I am not going to get in anyone's way.
Have fun storming the castle ... make those rotten politicians nervous. :)
Quote from: Caleb on February 16, 2008, 11:48 AM NHFT
What do you like about Sununu, Sandy?
Never said I do like Sununu, Caleb. However, I have a real problem with people who don't lift a finger to help a dozen of their friends who put in months of effort planning something, but then both ride on the coattails of those people's efforts while simultaneously bitching about them.
Quote
Because I have to admit that the willingness of so-called "freedom lovers" to hop in bed and whore themselves with Sununu was a key factor in making me realize that most of those in the FSP just really, truly, aren't on MY side.
You're right; I'm not on your side... of the country. :P
Quote
They are on the side of the bad guys.
Let's be bad guys. >:D I look better in black, anyway.
Quote
And why do you say you support torture?
It's called sarcasm, Sunshine Soldierboy. ::)
Kat and Ian, thanks for the links; I'll check them out.
We now return you to your non-political, outside-the-system, Friday-free programming. :D
Quote from: Friday on February 17, 2008, 07:51 AM NHFT
Never said I do like Sununu, Caleb. However, I have a real problem with people who don't lift a finger to help a dozen of their friends who put in months of effort planning something, but then both ride on the coattails of those people's efforts while simultaneously bitching about them.
Sandy, I would take it as a compliment. You don't try to reach out to people who you believe are a lost cause. How would you have him react? Should he actively support something that he believes is immoral? You want his help, but how could he help something that he saw as being wrong? He did the only compassionate thing he could: He tried to get you to see the error of your ways. Siding with Sununu isn't just bad strategy, it is wrong. It is madness. Lifting up a tyrant and promoting him as a lover of freedom is wrong. Associating myself, and my beliefs, with his is wrong. And deceitful. No matter if it increases my supposed "legitimacy" in the eyes of others.
Jraxis says that those who want to use political power to destroy it are beyond corruption. I say, look at this whoring with Sununu! The corruption has already begun, before you even acquire the ring.
For those concerned about people comming into the Freedom movement via "the system":
Words like, "Government is not the answer to our problems; Government is the problem" and "Extremism in the pursuit of Liberty is no vice; and moderation in pursuit of Justice is no virtue" and "Live free or die; Death is not the worst of evils" helped bring many of us into this movement, and many of those words came from folks "inside."
My first vote for president was for R. R. but before his first term was over I knew better than to vote for him a second time.
Maybe I'm a bit slow, but I have learned. I have learned some from folks inside the system and some from folks outside the system. I have also been disappointed by some inside and some outside . . .
After not missing a vote since I turned 18, as the the clock ticks and the calendar moves toward the next election, I am uncertain whether or not I will continue to vote. PLEASE always look for ways to invite people into the Freedom movement - and be careful not to push folks away.
looks like it's going to be june 21st.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Osk3nOnvM
Quote from: Friday on February 16, 2008, 11:42 AM NHFT
srqrebel, I was pretty pissed about your Sununu protest at Liberty Forum, and haven't spent much time at this forum since, for that and other reasons. But I just read through this thread, looking for more info on the potential march on Washington, and have to admit that your manifesto(?) above is pretty thought-provoking. I also have been checking out Stefan Molyneux's writings recently, and while I whole-heartedly agree with some of it, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around other parts of it. If you can point me in the direction of more instructional material on these sorts of ideas, perhaps in time you can chalk me up as a convert. :o
My apologies for not responding to this post, sooner, Sandy. unfortunately, I tend to get sidetracked sometimes, and neglect things I meant to take seriously... :(
As far as the background for my way of thinking, it more or less started with various writings of Dr. Frank R. Wallace, especially
The Neo-Tech Discovery (later revised and renamed
The Zonpower Discovery),
as well as my all-time personal favorite, Sic Itur Ad Astra by Andrew J. Galambos. Unfortunately, all of these are now out of print and extremely difficult to obtain.
These form the general foundation of my thinking; yet it took literally over a decade of incubation for all of their powerful identifications to start to 'jell' to a point where I could clearly internalize the accurate paradigm of what the Authoritarian Model of Government really is, and what it really represents, and why it makes perfect sense to categorically withdraw from this highly obsolete, literally criminal model of "governing".
Another author I would highly recommend is Carl Watner, founder of the concept of voluntaryism.
luckily Carl Watner's stuff is still in print ... and he has a website. :)