New Hampshire Underground

House backs pot decriminalization

By TOM FAHEY
State House Bureau Chief
7 minutes ago

Concord – The New Hampshire House voted today to decriminalize possession of small amounts of marijuana, ignoring advice from the House Criminal Justice Committee.

House Bill 1623 passed in an amended form by a vote of 193-141. It makes possession of up to one-quarter ounce of marijuana a violation, punishable by a $200 fine. The quantity involved is enough for about seven or eight marijuana joints.

The Criminal Justice Committee had recommended killing the bill by a 13-5 vote.Those who backed the bill said the penalties in current law are too harsh. They include a $2,000 fine, jail time and the loss of eligibility for federal grants for college aid.

Rep. Jason Bedrick, R-Windham, said the bill does not make marijuana completely legal."The question is not whether marijuana should be illegal. The question is whether a teen being stupid should face up to a year in prison and a loss of all funding for college," he said. It is time New Hampshire joined 12 others states that have lowered the punishment for possessing small amounts of marijuana, he said.

The bill does not change the laws on sales or transport of marijuana in a car, a flaw critics pointed out in a failed attempt to defeat the bill.

Rep. John Tholl, R-Whitefield, who is chief of police in Dalton, warned that giving some marijuana to a friend is considered a drug sale, a felony under current state law. Transporting it in a car is still a misdemeanor.

"We don't need to send a mixed message to people, to have them think it's OK to have a little," he said. "They can't give it away or have in it a car, because it's a felony or misdemeanor."

He said he worries that young people may be more likely to get caught up in drug trouble thinking that the reform runs through all laws on marijuana.

The measure now faces a review by the state Senate.

video uploading now at ridleyreport.com

holy crapola I thought this was dead!?!!!

sweet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D_TnNRBShw

This House vote was definitely the hardest hurdle in this battle.
The Senate will not go easily, however. It's going to take a hell of a lot more hard work. All the Prohibitionists will be up in arms now and will be calling their Senators to "stop the drugs"

Lynch vows to veto:

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Lynch+threatens+veto+after+House+votes+to+decriminalize+pot&articleId=d749f97f-4f05-4a72-8ca1-b6d3951bda19

Quote from: KBCraig on March 19, 2008, 01:14 AM NHFT
Lynch vows to veto:

Worse, the President of the Senate - Sylvia Larson (D-Concord) vows it won't pass the Senate.

We need to push for this as hard as we pushed for Real-ID.

QuoteGov. Lynch's spokesman Colin Manning said the bill "sends absolutely the wrong message to New Hampshire's young people about the very real dangers of drug use.

Ummm, so the right message to send to young people is that it is wrong to have a plant that has numerous documented health benefits and on which it is impossible to overdose? People die every year from water overdose. Why are we sending them the message that it is good to drink water?

Quote from: MengerFan on March 19, 2008, 11:18 AM NHFT

QuoteGov. Lynch's spokesman Colin Manning said the bill "sends absolutely the wrong message to New Hampshire's young people about the very real dangers of drug use.

Ummm, so the right message to send to young people is that it is wrong to have a plant that has numerous documented health benefits and on which it is impossible to overdose? People die every year from water overdose. Why are we sending them the message that it is good to drink water?

Give the kids an inch and they'll take a mile. Using marijuana will just lead to more dangerious drugs, don't you know that??  ::)

Quote from: MengerFan on March 19, 2008, 11:18 AM NHFT

QuoteGov. Lynch's spokesman Colin Manning said the bill "sends absolutely the wrong message to New Hampshire's young people about the very real dangers of drug use.

Ummm, so the right message to send to young people is that it is wrong to have a plant that has numerous documented health benefits and on which it is impossible to overdose? People die every year from water overdose. Why are we sending them the message that it is good to drink water?

Well...you know that dihydrogen monoxide is a dangerous substance when ingested in large quantities.  We should ban it.  For the children of course. 

Video up at:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2D_TnNRBShw

I hope this highly flawed bill passes.  It will only serve to illustrate that the nature of inside-the-system "victories" is such that for each small step you gain, it becomes exponentially more difficult to gain the next one.

The passage of this bill will effectively stymie any efforts to comprehensively secure the rights of marijuana users, growers, and dealers from within the system that thrives on subjugating the individual.

After this bill passes, the general attitude of the legislature will be that the NH marijuana laws have already been sufficiently overhauled to be more than considerate of the rights of the people, and any further concessions would run counter to the law-and-order image they must maintain to prop up their appearance of legitimacy.

Quote from: srqrebel on March 19, 2008, 01:34 PM NHFT
I hope this highly flawed bill passes.  It will only serve to illustrate that the nature of inside-the-system "victories" is such that for each small step you gain, it becomes exponentially more difficult to gain the next one.

If that's the case, how do you explain the process by which we become an effectively Socialist country?

Quote from: srqrebel on March 19, 2008, 01:34 PM NHFT
After this bill passes, the general attitude of the legislature will be that the NH marijuana laws have already been sufficiently overhauled

You have amazing insight on people you refuse to talk to.

Maybe all of the new hampshireites that care for this bill to pass should hold a peaceful marijuana smoke n toke right outside of the senate so when all the senators are walking in to vote on this thing they will have a good impression to go by.  If organized well enough and with a large enough group of people the police would have a difficult time arresting everyone and I am sure that those being arrested would show to the rest of new hampshire just how draconian the current laws against marijuana are!  Just look at the effect Marc Emery had in canada and he was just one man.  Just food for thought.  Do any of you agree with me?  Disagree?

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 01:54 PM NHFT
If that's the case, how do you explain the process by which we become an effectively Socialist country?

Because it's natural for an aggressive state to expand. It's taking it in the other direction that's difficult.

Quote from: Landon Jeffery on March 19, 2008, 03:11 PM NHFT
Maybe all of the new hampshireites that care for this bill to pass should hold a peaceful marijuana smoke n toke right outside of the senate

That would guarantee the measure would not pass, and make any future steps forward virtually impossible for about a decade.

Do keep in mind: it blew the mind of every NH political 'insider' that this vote passed the House. That was not supposed to happen!  >:D

Quote from: dalebert on March 19, 2008, 04:06 PM NHFT
it's natural for an aggressive state to expand. It's taking it in the other direction that's difficult.

Agreed, of course.
I still posit that to freeze frogs, you use the same technique as for boiling them.

Hmmm, I think I get it. Since a puppy becomes a dog, we can logically conclude that we can turn the dog back into a puppy.

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 04:25 PM NHFT
That would guarantee the measure would not pass, and make any future steps forward virtually impossible for about a decade.

Do keep in mind: it blew the mind of every NH political 'insider' that this vote passed the House. That was not supposed to happen!  >:D

And why exactly would that guarantee it will not pass?  If you ask me it can't hurt considering I believe they will shoot it down anyways.  Dennis do you think that having a peaceful protest against the marijuana laws be a step back from affecting change in the public opinion or only in the opinion of the senate?  I think if you consider the government to be illigitimate then you have no other choice but to ignore its opinion and to blatently show your non cooperation with their unjust *laws*.  I guess I am an idealist and it blows my mind that the government has infected so many people with their fear-laced propaghanda.

Quote from: Landon Jeffery on March 19, 2008, 05:37 PM NHFT

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 04:25 PM NHFT
That would guarantee the measure would not pass, and make any future steps forward virtually impossible for about a decade.

And why exactly would that guarantee it will not pass?

Human psychology.
The reason MJ decrim hasn't passed yet isn't actually because the legislators are hellspawn who take pleasure in destroying lives. Rather, they are afraid of marijuana, the way some people are afraid of guns, and their response to that fear is exactly the same as any gun-grabber: make it illegal!

It's illogical, and because and it destroys all our freedoms in the process, unforgiveable.
But you have to understand the motivation at least a little if you hope to change the behavior.

Quote from: Landon Jeffery on March 19, 2008, 05:37 PM NHFT
Dennis do you think that having a peaceful protest against the marijuana laws be a step back from affecting change in the public opinion or only in the opinion of the senate?

The people who are reacting emotionally and illogically will NOT see a peaceful protest. They will see PEOPLE! USING *DRUGS*! ... and it would reinforce their knee-jerk opinions.

The way to change their behavior is for people who are known to them, and trusted by them, and who they respect, tell them in the most nonthreatening manner possible, that they use pot responsibly.

Quote from: Landon Jeffery on March 19, 2008, 05:37 PM NHFTit blows my mind that the government has infected so many people with their fear-laced propaghanda.

It's fuckedup, but it's true.
The Big Lie propaganda has become "truth" for a lot of people. That's what we're up against.

One more time: it passed the House, against all expectations.
WE got it past the house.

wE CAN'T SEND GOOD MEN TO PRISON!!!!!!

Thats the message!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 05:54 PM NHFT
Human psychology.
The reason MJ decrim hasn't passed yet isn't actually because the legislators are hellspawn who take pleasure in destroying lives. Rather, they are afraid of marijuana, the way some people are afraid of guns, and their response to that fear is exactly the same as any gun-grabber: make it illegal!

It's illogical, and because and it destroys all our freedoms in the process, unforgiveable.
But you have to understand the motivation at least a little if you hope to change the behavior.

Thanks for the clarification dennis.  I am not so sure I agree with your view that the majority of people will only react emotionally and therefore irrationally.  If what I have read is correct then the American revolution was incited by not the majority of the populous but my a significant minority.  So for those that react irrationally I say fuck 'em.  The best and the brightest will bring about the largest change and I already believe the the brightest people already know that pot is not harmful and would like to see it legalized.  I think that now we need to show to those people that we are ready for that change and that will require some disobedience against the status quo.  I have seen polls about legalization of pot that show a huge portion of those living in america think that pot should not be illegal.  Using the system which is supported in part by these unjust and rediculous laws seems to me to be a "conflict of interest"  as was pointed out in the testimonies of the chief of police and others representing the state.  I would like to point out that my views are skewed by my eternal optimism so take what I say with a grain of salt.  

Quote from: Landon Jeffery on March 19, 2008, 05:37 PM NHFT
Dennis do you think that having a peaceful protest against the marijuana laws be a step back from affecting change in the public opinion or only in the opinion of the senate?

I would never argue with Denis about what it takes to change laws in NH. That's his domain. I will say this though. I like you're style! When are you moving here? Let's let them finish this little political maneuver and then we can talk about your idea.  8)

Fuck yeah, Landon.  We need more people like you in Keene.  Public marijuana smoking coming soon!  (after we try gambling first)  8)

Quote from: Landon Jeffery on March 19, 2008, 06:37 PM NHFT
I have seen polls about legalization of pot that show a huge portion of those living in america think that pot should not be illegal.

In a way, that is why NH is uniquely the state where political strategies are likely to work: highly representative democracy.
The fact is, pretty much anybody who really works at it can be a State Rep here. It's not necessarily easy, but it's light-years difference between NH and any other state.

In other words... this is the one state where a small, dedicated group of political activists can "take over" the government and effect change quickly. I know that's the case, because the Democrats did it in 2006.

Quote from: FTL_Ian on March 19, 2008, 08:01 PM NHFT
Fuck yeah, Landon.  We need more people like you in Keene.  Public marijuana smoking coming soon!  (after we try gambling first)  8)

Keene is one of the very few places where a public demo might actually help -- because so many of the elected "officials" in Keene already agree with legalization.
Any such act would still put us political workers in serious damage-control mode, though.
If it must be done... please, wait till the legislative session ends in June :)

BTW... if HB1623 passes, I am happy to pay a $200 fine for a public act of CivDis.

...The sweet sound of patent approval comin' down in a world of hurt
In my opinion the drug is ready
The warm hand of abject approval
comin' down with its' ropey veins
The warm hand of abject approval
comin' down to the fingerbowl
In my opinion the drug is ready...

Tragically Hip
Butts Wigglin

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 08:04 PM NHFT
Any such act would still put us political workers in serious damage-control mode, though.
If it must be done... please, wait till the legislative session ends in June :)

BTW... if HB1623 passes, I am happy to pay a $200 fine for a public act of CivDis.

Civ dis doesn't include fine paying.  The point is to disobey, silly!   ::)

July 4thish is the next Freedom Fest.

It would be better if we force them to put us in jail to pay the fine off with time and cost the state money.

Congrats guys.  I hope it works out like you want it to.

Quote from: dalebert on March 19, 2008, 07:55 PM NHFT
I would never argue with Denis about what it takes to change laws in NH. That's his domain. I will say this though. I like you're style! When are you moving here? Let's let them finish this little political maneuver and then we can talk about your idea.  8)

I am planning on FEB09 as my move date.  But I am planning on attending porc fest this summer so bring out the buds!  Perhaps Barry Cooper will be at porc fest  ;) 

Quote from: FTL_Ian on March 19, 2008, 08:01 PM NHFT
Fuck yeah, Landon.  We need more people like you in Keene.  Public marijuana smoking coming soon!  (after we try gambling first)  8)

Thanks Ian.  I plan to move to the Keene area because from what I can tell that is the area with the majority of the "extreme" activists that I was hoping to find in NH. 

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 08:04 PM NHFT

Keene is one of the very few places where a public demo might actually help -- because so many of the elected "officials" in Keene already agree with legalization.
Any such act would still put us political workers in serious damage-control mode, though.
If it must be done... please, wait till the legislative session ends in June :)

BTW... if HB1623 passes, I am happy to pay a $200 fine for a public act of CivDis.

I would like you to agree to do some CivDis even if it doesn't pass.  If you have principled beliefs that you should choose what you put in your body then it is the only honorable thing to do.

Quote from: FTL_Ian on March 19, 2008, 08:19 PM NHFT
Civ dis doesn't include fine paying.  The point is to disobey, silly!   ::)

*sigh* ... Mr. more-civ-dis-than-thou
Is it only "real" civ dis if you are willing to accept any fate, up to and including death, for refusing to obey?

In my case I'd be intentionally breaking the law, with every intention of paying the bribe to have the matter dropped.
Too bad if that doesn't count for you.

Good for you, Denis  :)

Landon, we each have to move at our own pace. Don't scare Denis off.  8)

Quote from: Landon Jeffery on March 19, 2008, 09:18 PM NHFT

I would like you to agree to do some CivDis even if it doesn't pass.  If you have principled beliefs that you should choose what you put in your body then it is the only honorable thing to do.

Sorry dennis.  I didn't mean to come off as pushy.  I'll try to restrain myself from being this way.   :-\

Denis plays politics... he's got to have a thick skin.  :)
Heck, he can tolerate FTL's forum, at least we don't fling our dung... oh what a minute, that's not true anymore.  ;D
(http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11485.0;attach=3495;image)

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on March 19, 2008, 10:46 PM NHFT
Denis plays politics... he's got to have a thick skin.  :)
Heck, he can tolerate FTL's forum

FTL's forum is mostly immature bullshitting & socializing; NHFree is about principled people DOING REAL THINGS.
That said, the NHFree forum is home to the most intolerant, disrespectful discourse I've run across on the 'net.
And that includes when I used to hang out on alt.flame

with all due respect, it doesn't get much more disrespectful than ftl's discussion of jesse's current situation. i almost stopped amping over that.

Guinta threatens a state rep's job for daring to vote in favor of the marijuana decrim bill:

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Marijuana+vote+draws+fire&articleId=4f7cb02b-ee24-42a2-9185-083d0144c820

Marijuana vote draws fire

By JOHN WHITSON AND SCOTT BROOKS
New Hampshire Union Leader
4 minutes ago

MANCHESTER – Mayor Frank Guinta has asked state Rep. David Scannell to resign as spokesman for the Manchester school district after Scannell voted Tuesday to decriminalize possession of small amounts of marijuana.

Scannell insisted he will not resign, saying his vote is a form of political speech protected by the U.S. Constitution. He also raised the possibility he would take legal action against the mayor or anyone who tries to strip away his job.

In a letter signed yesterday, Guinta said Scannell's vote on the bill, which passed the House but is unlikely to become law, "permanently and irrevocably harms" Scannell's ability to serve Manchester's schools. The mayor argued Scannell's resignation is necessary to "help restore the integrity" of district anti-drug policies.

"He's the face of the district," Guinta said yesterday. "He interacts with kids on a daily basis, and he is taking a position to decriminalize marijuana. That is counter to logic, in my view."

More at the link above.

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 11:19 PM NHFT

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on March 19, 2008, 10:46 PM NHFT
Denis plays politics... he's got to have a thick skin.  :)
Heck, he can tolerate FTL's forum

FTL's forum is mostly immature bullshitting & socializing; NHFree is about principled people DOING REAL THINGS.
That said, the NHFree forum is home to the most intolerant, disrespectful discourse I've run across on the 'net.
And that includes when I used to hang out on alt.flame

Sorry Denis, I was attempting to defuse a situation and make welcome a new participant. It was intended to be humor.

Quote from: KBCraig on March 20, 2008, 01:48 AM NHFT
Guinta threatens a state rep's job for daring to vote in favor of the marijuana decrim bill:

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Marijuana+vote+draws+fire&articleId=4f7cb02b-ee24-42a2-9185-083d0144c820

Marijuana vote draws fire

By JOHN WHITSON AND SCOTT BROOKS
New Hampshire Union Leader
4 minutes ago

MANCHESTER – Mayor Frank Guinta has asked state Rep. David Scannell to resign as spokesman for the Manchester school district after Scannell voted Tuesday to decriminalize possession of small amounts of marijuana.

Scannell insisted he will not resign, saying his vote is a form of political speech protected by the U.S. Constitution. He also raised the possibility he would take legal action against the mayor or anyone who tries to strip away his job.

In a letter signed yesterday, Guinta said Scannell's vote on the bill, which passed the House but is unlikely to become law, "permanently and irrevocably harms" Scannell's ability to serve Manchester's schools. The mayor argued Scannell's resignation is necessary to "help restore the integrity" of district anti-drug policies.

"He's the face of the district," Guinta said yesterday. "He interacts with kids on a daily basis, and he is taking a position to decriminalize marijuana. That is counter to logic, in my view."

More at the link above.

That's something good that comes from this bill... it shows that you aren't even allowed to talk about the issue.

Hey, wasn't this the guy that was supposed to be our buddy. F*@kin' fascists.

Quote from: KBCraig on March 20, 2008, 01:48 AM NHFT
The mayor argued Scannell's resignation is necessary to "help restore the integrity" of district anti-drug policies.

This is my favorite part. The integrity of all these fascist laws is threatened when we openly challenge the origin of authority of the state, and that's a very good thing.

 I wonder if Mayor Guinta thinks free speech is worth protecting?  ...not sure what he's been smoking but it must be pretty good stuff...he's hallucinating that he's the decider!

Quote from: Caleb on March 19, 2008, 11:37 PM NHFT
with all due respect, it doesn't get much more disrespectful than ftl's discussion of jesse's current situation. i almost stopped amping over that.

Considering we have not yet discussed Jesse's situation on the air (we're waiting for his dad to be ready to call in), you must be referring to the thread posted by BBS participants.   Thank you for not punishing me for the callousness of some individuals.   :-\

Quote from: FTL_Ian on March 20, 2008, 09:49 AM NHFT

Quote from: Caleb on March 19, 2008, 11:37 PM NHFT
with all due respect, it doesn't get much more disrespectful than ftl's discussion of jesse's current situation. i almost stopped amping over that.

Considering we have not yet discussed Jesse's situation on the air (we're waiting for his dad to be ready to call in), you must be referring to the thread posted by BBS participants.   Thank you for not punishing me for the callousness of some individuals.   :-\

Have you not considered asking his sister?

From their blog posts, I didn't get the impression she had been seeing him as much as his dad.

Anyway, back to pot decriminalization...

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 11:19 PM NHFT

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on March 19, 2008, 10:46 PM NHFT
Denis plays politics... he's got to have a thick skin.  :)
Heck, he can tolerate FTL's forum

FTL's forum is mostly immature bullshitting & socializing; NHFree is about principled people DOING REAL THINGS.
That said, the NHFree forum is home to the most intolerant, disrespectful discourse I've run across on the 'net.And that includes when I used to hang out on alt.flame

????
I realize the morality discussions over the 'proper' form of activism have tuned a lot of politically active folks away, but a vast majority is not disrespectful, and most is not even intolerant.  Of course there is bound to be differing opinions, many quite passionate, anytime the morality of something is questioned.  But that doesn't make it intolerant. 

Video about the mayoral bru ha ha is up at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26LvdIxfrUs

including contact info for the mayor
i have a call into his office requesting an interview

Quote from: Landon Jeffery on March 19, 2008, 09:18 PM NHFT
...I plan to move to the Keene area because from what I can tell that is the area with the majority of the "extreme" activists that I was hoping to find in NH.

Woohoo! :party-smiley-020:

;D 8)

Quote from: FTL_Ian on March 20, 2008, 09:49 AM NHFT

Quote from: Caleb on March 19, 2008, 11:37 PM NHFT
with all due respect, it doesn't get much more disrespectful than ftl's discussion of jesse's current situation. i almost stopped amping over that.

Considering we have not yet discussed Jesse's situation on the air (we're waiting for his dad to be ready to call in), you must be referring to the thread posted by BBS participants.   Thank you for not punishing me for the callousness of some individuals.   :-\

Yeah, Caleb, please don't punish Ian just because he has chosen not to censor an open message board. It's nothing but a sandbox for listeners- Ian's own words. None of those people are under his control.

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 09:41 PM NHFT
Is it only "real" civ dis if you are willing to accept any fate, up to and including death, for refusing to obey?

Why of course... that is the most powerful civil disobedience.

That kind of firm stance compels the agents of force to either back down, or drop their slick disguise and thereby expose their evil core to their unwitting supporters.  Damned if they don't, even more damned if they do.

Breaking the law, but then paying their arbitrary fine, is perhaps better than not taking a stand at all, but IMO it sends a mixed message: "I am willing to take a stand against this law, but I will voluntarily submit to their arbitrarily imposed consequences."  It sends the message that this particular law is bad, but the institution of force itself is to be ultimately respected and obeyed.

It also sends the agents of force the message that all they have to do is crack down on us, and we will cave in.  That is certainly not the case with the radical and fast-growing activist group here in Keene, and they know it :)

Quote from: d_goddard on March 19, 2008, 11:19 PM NHFT
...the NHFree forum is home to the most intolerant, disrespectful discourse I've run across on the 'net.
And that includes when I used to hang out on alt.flame

Whoa... I sincerely hope that is not partly in reference to any of my posts.

I state my opinions, sometimes forcefully, but I try to be respectful wherever it is even remotely appropriate.

I know there has been some extremely intolerant, disrespectful discourse on this forum, but it is usually by only a tiny percentage of generally despised forum participants.  It speaks to the respectfulness and tolerance of Kat and Russell that such individuals are not immediately banned from their own forum.

Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 20, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
Video about the mayoral bru ha ha is up at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26LvdIxfrUs

including contact info for the mayor
i have a call into his office requesting an interview

thanks dave. 

WMUR vote, should scannell resign?  HECK NO!  http://www.wmur.com/news/15652017/detail.html

This has been a very frustrating day for me - politically. There have been a fair amount of times where the mayor (or someone else) has done something and I've not understood why....usually once I've heard the background, I can see a different reason that what was obvious. All too often, the new stories are a little out of context, etc.

I read this article at 6AM - and I just don't get this one at all. I guess I remotely can see Guinta view that Scannell is head of the anti-drug group in the schools is in conflict with how he voted. I don't agree - but I guess I can see it. Scannell gets a paycheck from the City of Manchester to head the safe schools program - which in part is supposed to try to reduce drug use.....and I guess the Mayor sees this as being in contradiction with his paid city job.

I still don't get it....and I wish the mayor had said nothing at all on the subject. Ugh.  :-\

Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 20, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
Video about the mayoral bru ha ha is up at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26LvdIxfrUs

including contact info for the mayor
i have a call into his office requesting an interview

And, just to set the record straight - Guinta did not threaten Scannell's job....nor does he have the authority to fire him......

Quote from: ny2nh on March 20, 2008, 06:30 PM NHFT

Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 20, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
Video about the mayoral bru ha ha is up at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26LvdIxfrUs

including contact info for the mayor
i have a call into his office requesting an interview

And, just to set the record straight - Guinta did not threaten Scannell's job....nor does he have the authority to fire him......

When the mayor, who is president of the school board, publicly calls for a school employee's resignation, I consider it threatening.

Quote from: KBCraig on March 20, 2008, 06:34 PM NHFT

Quote from: ny2nh on March 20, 2008, 06:30 PM NHFT

Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 20, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
Video about the mayoral bru ha ha is up at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26LvdIxfrUs

including contact info for the mayor
i have a call into his office requesting an interview

And, just to set the record straight - Guinta did not threaten Scannell's job....nor does he have the authority to fire him......

When the mayor, who is president of the school board, publicly calls for a school employee's resignation, I consider it threatening.

It would only be threatening if he could act on it - which he cannot.

It's called the "Bully pulpit", and no matter what you think about MJ decrim, or Scannell's vote, it is the mark of a bully and an authoritarian power-seeker to use that pulpit to try and squash somebody.

As I said in my message to Guinta (http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=584.msg3528#msg3528):

Quote from: d_goddardSir, you have just utterly and completely disqualified yourself from the race for Governor. So help me God, no executive can be allowed to display the level of ignorance and thuggery that you have done.

My LTE:

QuoteTo the Editor:

Although I find public schooling detrimental to providing a decent education, due to recent events I find myself in the highly unusual position of defending a public school bureaucrat's employment.

Mayor Guinta has threatened the job of state Rep. David Scannell, Manchester School District spokesman, for voting in favor of HB1623, a bill to restore educational opportunities to students caught with a small amount of marijuana.

I will not venture into the moral and societal arguments about marijuana, for this is not what this bill was about. The simple fact is that federal regulations are so draconian that while most violent crimes will not disqualify one from grants, the non-violent possession of marijuana will. Reducing possession from a crime to a violation is the only way to protect a student's eligibility for federal education aid. Rep. Scannell was well aware of this. His vote was not pro-marijuana, it was pro-education.

Mr. Guinta, I campaigned for your re-election before I had even moved to Manchester. You of all people should know better than blaming Mr. Scannell, rather than over-reaching federal mandates, for doing what needed to be done to support education.

Ryan Marvin
459 Wilson St
Manchester NH 03103
603-625-1690

Rev Ryan FTW!

Quote from: ReverendRyan on March 20, 2008, 07:38 PM NHFT
His vote was not pro-marijuana, it was pro-education.

Frakkin excellent point!

Quote from: d_goddard on March 20, 2008, 07:07 PM NHFT
It's called the "Bully pulpit", and no matter what you think about MJ decrim, or Scannell's vote, it is the mark of a bully and an authoritarian power-seeker to use that pulpit to try and squash somebody.

As I said in my message to Guinta (http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=584.msg3528#msg3528):

Quote from: d_goddardSir, you have just utterly and completely disqualified yourself from the race for Governor. So help me God, no executive can be allowed to display the level of ignorance and thuggery that you have done.

Denis... You rock. Thank you.  8)

Quote from: ny2nh on March 20, 2008, 06:55 PM NHFT

Quote from: KBCraig on March 20, 2008, 06:34 PM NHFT

Quote from: ny2nh on March 20, 2008, 06:30 PM NHFT
And, just to set the record straight - Guinta did not threaten Scannell's job....nor does he have the authority to fire him......

When the mayor, who is president of the school board, publicly calls for a school employee's resignation, I consider it threatening.

It would only be threatening if he could act on it - which he cannot.

Tammy, he can act on it -- and did so by issuing this statement!

He can't personally fire Scannell, but the people who can do so are very aware of that the president of the school board wants this employee gone.

I know you're torn right now about Guinta. This is the one "aw shit" that pretty much wipes away any "attaboys" he ever earned.

Quote from: FTL_Ian on March 20, 2008, 09:49 AM NHFT

Quote from: Caleb on March 19, 2008, 11:37 PM NHFT
with all due respect, it doesn't get much more disrespectful than ftl's discussion of jesse's current situation. i almost stopped amping over that.

Considering we have not yet discussed Jesse's situation on the air (we're waiting for his dad to be ready to call in), you must be referring to the thread posted by BBS participants.   Thank you for not punishing me for the callousness of some individuals.   :-\

well, it wouldn't have been intended to "punish" you. i hardly ever visit your forum, so the caliber of the discussion was a shock to me. and my initial reaction was, "oh ... this is the mindset of the people who are being attracted to the show, huh"

but you're right. a few horrible apples are not the standard by which to judge your effectiveness.  i know plenty of absolutely wonderful people who listen to and benefit from your show.

A supermajority of our listeners will never set foot in our forum, so there's no way to ever know the quality of individual we are attracting.   ;)

Quote from: FTL_Ian on March 20, 2008, 09:13 PM NHFT
A supermajority of our listeners will never set foot in our forum, so there's no way to ever know the quality of individual we are attracting.   ;)

I am one of the superminority that found this forum through FTL.  But Ian is right that there is a huge diverse crowd of people attracted to the show and a few of which I would consider "bad apples".

hey what's all this raggin on ian's forum...

if it weren't for the FTL forum i never would have learned the term "fucktard"
LOL  seriously it's a great forum

Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 20, 2008, 10:20 PM NHFTif it weren't for the FTL forum i never would have learned the term "fucktard"

Study time for Dada!
Define the following words:
Asshat
Window Licker
Cunt Turd
Cum Bucket

Extra Credit:
Santorum

Between Guinta stabbing the Porcupines and RLC folks in the back with the Giuliani endorsement, and this latest of insults, I'm hoping the political activists among us have learned their lesson--don't trust a politician.  If someone is running who isn't in our group, make sure they deserve our support, and if they do stab us in the back, make sure they realize we'll do everything we can to make sure they are never elected again.

The upcoming reputation rating site will be of great use in this.

Remember--you will not be held responsible for the actions of your enemies.  However, you WILL be held responsible for the actions of your allies.  Don't trust the established politicians who merely observe the way the wind is blowing and wish to jump on our band wagon.  Make them work for it, make them realize that we hold our principles (and among them, agreements) sacred, and make them realize that stabbing us in the back gets them moved to the active list of those politicians who are a priority to put out on the street. Tell them that unlike the average voters, we are activists, and we do have long memories. 

Hell, I'm still pissed off at George Washington--and holding a grudge over the Whiskey Rebellion in particular. 

Quote from: ancapagency on March 20, 2008, 11:52 PM NHFT
Hell, I'm still pissed off at George Washington--and holding a grudge over the Whiskey Rebellion in particular.

Thank you. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who understands that presidential abuse of the Constitution didn't start with Lincoln.

Quote from: KBCraig on March 20, 2008, 08:43 PM NHFT
He can't personally fire Scannell, but the people who can do so are very aware of that the president of the school board wants this employee gone.

I know you're torn right now about Guinta. This is the one "aw shit" that pretty much wipes away any "attaboys" he ever earned.

Actually, I think pretty much every knew that Guinta wanted Scannell gone before this....they've butted heads before.

And, yes, I am torn. I know Frank pretty well - and I just cannot get why he did this - it really doesn't fit with him.

Stick a fork in him. He's done in this group!

Quote from: ancapagency on March 20, 2008, 11:52 PM NHFT
Between Guinta stabbing the Porcupines and RLC folks in the back with the Giuliani endorsement, and this latest of insults, I'm hoping the political activists among us have learned their lesson--don't trust a politician.  If someone is running who isn't in our group, make sure they deserve our support, and if they do stab us in the back, make sure they realize we'll do everything we can to make sure they are never elected again.

The upcoming reputation rating site will be of great use in this.

Remember--you will not be held responsible for the actions of your enemies.  However, you WILL be held responsible for the actions of your allies.  Don't trust the established politicians who merely observe the way the wind is blowing and wish to jump on our band wagon.  Make them work for it, make them realize that we hold our principles (and among them, agreements) sacred, and make them realize that stabbing us in the back gets them moved to the active list of those politicians who are a priority to put out on the street. Tell them that unlike the average voters, we are activists, and we do have long memories. 

Hell, I'm still pissed off at George Washington--and holding a grudge over the Whiskey Rebellion in particular. 

I still don't see how Guinta endorsing Guiliani was a stab in the back. He never said he would endorse Ron Paul or that he wouldn't endorse someone else. You're inferring that there was some sort of agreement - when there was no such thing.

If you're holding out for "someone in our group" to be viable for mayor or governor....honestly, you have a long, long wait. Reality is that there are only a handful of people to choose from in either position. No one is going to be a perfect candidate. This instance is highly annoying, but I still think he's a good person who is willing to listen to just about anything anyone has to say...."our group" included. Had we had any idea that he would take this position, Matt could have probably gotten his ear and perhaps talked with him.

I do want to say this - and it is not from your post in any way - but I've read it many times since last November.....

There seem to be a lot of "our group" who claim to have campaigned for Frank - some a real lot - last fall. There were many who did help Frank - sometimes by working with Phil and I on Phil's campaign. I have a pretty sharp memory - I know who came to our sign waves, who came to our lit drops, those who wrote checks or made very generous donations, and those who stood at the polls, etc. Those that helped Phil were indirectly helping Frank....and it was much appreciated. On the Guinta side, I think I knew who was helping out there as well. It is astonishing to read when someone writes that they helped elect Frank or campaigned for him - when I don't even remember them helping Phil. If you helped, that's one thing, but it really irks me when people say they did something that they did not. If they think it somehow garners them some clout, it doesn't because I am sure I am not the only one who remembers who was there and who wasn't. To those of you who were - I thanked you then and I'll thank you again.

even tho i'm one of the guys holding his feet to the fire i agree with ny2nc that guinta was probably the least-bad available mayoral candidate. touch base with kate richards for the details on that line of thinking. I trust her judgment.   

Ideally these politicians should know in advance how little it takes to piss us off so they think twice.....Guinta's fall, if it comes to that, won't necessarily be a pro liberty outcome, but if we had been able to keep him from doing this before hand that would have been very pro freedom.

Remember--you will not be held responsible for the actions of your enemies.  However, you WILL be held responsible for the actions of your allies.

Quote from: ny2nh on March 21, 2008, 06:38 AM NHFT
I still don't see how Guinta endorsing Guiliani was a stab in the back. He never said he would endorse Ron Paul or that he wouldn't endorse someone else. You're inferring that there was some sort of agreement - when there was no such thing.

Oh, I knew (and said at the time to a few folks) that Guinta wasn't going to endorse Ron Paul--I could tell by how he weaseled at the MVP meeting when he was asked.  But he answered in such a way as to lead the Porcupines to believe that it was a possibility, because he knew he wouldn't get the support he needed if he answered honestly.  I'm not inferring an agreement--I'm inferring deceit.  I didn't say he lied--and if I had meant that, I would have said it explicitly.  What he did was use the Porcupines by deceiving them, knowing at the time that he wasn't going to endorse Paul, and I suspect he already knew he was going to endorse Giuliani, but was unwilling to do so until he got maximum use out of the Porcupines because he knew (I'm sure he was advised by people who knew, that is) they wouldn't work for him if he endorsed such an obvious fascist up front.  He waited until after the election, then turned around and stabbed the Porcupines who worked for him in the back.

QuoteIf you're holding out for "someone in our group" to be viable for mayor or governor....honestly, you have a long, long wait. Reality is that there are only a handful of people to choose from in either position. No one is going to be a perfect candidate.

Oh, I'm not waiting for that.  I'm a non-voter these days.  I'll lend a hand occasionally in these political actions, but I never expect much from them.  So I work with the NHLA, I'll endorse various candidates from time to time for those who are voters, I'll pass out some lit, and so forth.  But I reserve the majority of my activism for other areas.  But I hate to see our politically active people getting used and losing ground.  Although I suspect that you're wrong about how quickly some Porcupines may become "viable."  And I don't require anyone to be the perfect candidate, but I do require they be at least somewhat on the same friggin' page.  And again I say:  Remember--you will not be held responsible for the actions of your enemies.  However, you WILL be held responsible for the actions of your allies.

QuoteThis instance is highly annoying, but I still think he's a good person who is willing to listen to just about anything anyone has to say...."our group" included. Had we had any idea that he would take this position, Matt could have probably gotten his ear and perhaps talked with him.

I'm sure you're wrong on this one.  Oh, I'm sure that you're right that he's willing to listen to (almost) anyone.  I'm sure he's very interested in people.  But that's not necessarily a good thing.  Fleas and ticks are interested in dogs.  But I seriously doubt he's a good person.  He's a professional politician, he's obviously an "ends justifies the means" type, he's a user and deceiver, and he is power hungry.  I realize all that was redundant, but nonetheless...

Quote...If you helped, that's one thing, but it really irks me when people say they did something that they did not. If they think it somehow garners them some clout, it doesn't because I am sure I am not the only one who remembers who was there and who wasn't.

I understand your irritation with that sort of thing, but I suspect you're at least to some extent overlooking the fact that there are more ways than those to which you referred to help with a campaign.  One example is simply the widespread personal endorsement.  A lot of folks with the MVP we're out there telling people Guinta was a good guy, that he could be trusted to do the right thing--the pro-freedom thing.  They put the trust and respect people had for their word on the line--and that hurt them when Guinta went on to pull the typical politician shit.  This accounts (IMO) for more of the anger than the fact that he is just a typical politician--the fact that people who pride themselves in the value and honor of their word were used and thus had some of the respect they'd worked for destroyed.  As for myself, I never endorsed Guinta, and I freely admit I never worked for him in any way.  I was impressed that he came to the MVP meeting and was savvy enough to look for help from the MVP, but I suspect that was because he had people giving him advice who knew the MVP, and knew that the MVP could be used in this fashion, but who underestimate the backlash that would come--or believe they can somehow neutralize the MVP before the backlash comes.  But as I said, I recognized him for what he was from day one, and I've been burned before. 

I suspect Guinta's crowd seriously underestimates the real level of political experience in the FSP because the members are idealists and so many are Libertarians.  That is a huge strategic mistake on their part.  Just to use myself as an example (and remember, I'm a NON-POLITICAL activist at this time):  I'm a past candidate for various offices from City Council to US House.  I'm the former chair of at least one government commission, and have been a member of others.  I'm the former chair of Libertarian Party Affiliates in at least two states (NH isn't one of them), as well as other political action groups that were not explicitly affiliated with the LP.  I've been an active member of so many political action groups I can't remember them all.  I'd be afraid to calculate the amount of money I've given to the political groups I've been involved with in some fashion over the years--I'm a single guy with inexpensive habits and no debts for the most part, so I have plowed significant portions of my income at times into these groups. I'm sure I'm forgetting significant portions of my political resume right now, but no big deal.  And all this is just from the time I switched to the LP--I had a long involvement with the Republicans before that (including Republicans Abroad when I was in the Army and stationed overseas--which was for a good bit of the 1990s). 

And--now pay close attention to this part-- I haven't been all that politically active compared to a good portion of the MVP.  Hell, in my house alone, we've got several past congressional candidates, and I couldn't even begin to tabulate the local political experience.  We've got at least one former State LP Chair (again, not NH), and I'm sure several lesser affiliate chairs and so forth.  And do not mistake a lack of victories for a lack of experience.  Look at how much press the FSP has garnered, and how much effect it's had, with only 500 members spread across the state, and despite the press bias against giving anything that isn't part of the two party system any attention.  And more people are moving here every week.

Do not underestimate the resolve, nor the commitment of the Porcupines--the folks here were the top activists elsewhere in the country, and they PICKED UP THEIR ENTIRE LIVES AND MOVED FOR AN IDEA.  They moved across the entire country--many of them (like myself) hating the cold and snow, and moving far from friends and family.  Many of them gave up high paying jobs to come to NH and live on a shoestring while they engage in activism. Most of them left significant portions of their possessions to come here--and many left almost everything behind, and didn't look back.  I could continue, but I won't bother.

Do not mistake the debate and wrangling within the Porcupine Community for schism--it's not.  Oh, we have many disagreements and personality conflicts and so forth, but don't be fooled--we are the distilled activists of the Freedom Movement from across the country--and even to some extent, the world.  And the folks who are here now are the ones who weren't even willing to wait for the rest of the people who were supposed to join and move.  We are the glass-eaters. 

I'm going to enjoy the looks of disbelief and horror and incomprehension on the faces of the politicians when they're permanently out of office.  The fact that I've provided this sort of warning--now and to some extent in the past--will only make their consistent incompetent miscalculation all the sweeter for me.  But I have an over-developed sense of vengeance, and prefer to see my enemies alive and suffering, rather than dead and at peace.  But I never claimed to be a nice person--merely a very smart one who believes in acting according to objective moral principles.  But I digress.

I'm looking forward to the coming ride--it's gonna be a blast.

Mayor Guinta...he supported Guliani and said what he said about Scannell...I don't need to know any more about him...somebody correct me if I'm using the term incorrectly, but doesn't that make him an
"ass hat"?  If that's the wrong use of ass hat...please substitute "douchebag".

Quote from: ancapagency on March 21, 2008, 08:02 AM NHFT
Oh, I knew (and said at the time to a few folks) that Guinta wasn't going to endorse Ron Paul--I could tell by how he weaseled at the MVP meeting when he was asked.  But he answered in such a way as to lead the Porcupines to believe that it was a possibility, because he knew he wouldn't get the support he needed if he answered honestly.  I'm not inferring an agreement--I'm inferring deceit.  I didn't say he lied--and if I had meant that, I would have said it explicitly.  What he did was use the Porcupines by deceiving them, knowing at the time that he wasn't going to endorse Paul, and I suspect he already knew he was going to endorse Giuliani, but was unwilling to do so until he got maximum use out of the Porcupines because he knew (I'm sure he was advised by people who knew, that is) they wouldn't work for him if he endorsed such an obvious fascist up front.  He waited until after the election, then turned around and stabbed the Porcupines who worked for him in the back.

Sorry - have to wholeheartedly disagree with you. I was there the day Guinta spoke with the MVP. He hardly weaseled out of anything and her most definitely didn't say anything that should have lead anyone to believe that he was leaning toward RP...or anyone else for that matter. Rob asked him if he would endorse RP and Frank said he wasn't endorsing anyone until after the election (his) and that he would be welcome any candidate who wanted to talk with him when they were in Manchester. I can't see how that in any way would make someone think he was going to endorse RP.

As far as getting maximum use out of Porcupines, again we're back to who actually did what. There was a certain group that was there throughout the campaign - again primarily helping Phil - and helping Frank secondarily.

Quote from: ancapagency on March 21, 2008, 08:02 AM NHFT

QuoteThis instance is highly annoying, but I still think he's a good person who is willing to listen to just about anything anyone has to say...."our group" included. Had we had any idea that he would take this position, Matt could have probably gotten his ear and perhaps talked with him.

I'm sure you're wrong on this one.  Oh, I'm sure that you're right that he's willing to listen to (almost) anyone.  I'm sure he's very interested in people.  But that's not necessarily a good thing.  Fleas and ticks are interested in dogs.  But I seriously doubt he's a good person.  He's a professional politician, he's obviously an "ends justifies the means" type, he's a user and deceiver, and he is power hungry.  I realize all that was redundant, but nonetheless...

I know Frank quite well - and while I have my own disagreements with him on some issues - I know him as a person. He's not just a politician. Is he a politician - of course. Reality is that you have to be to be elected. Is he one of the power-hungry, non-principled types - no. Is he wrong IMO on this - yes. Is he willing to talk to people to hear their point of view about this - yes.

Quote from: ancapagency on March 21, 2008, 08:02 AM NHFT
I was impressed that he came to the MVP meeting and was savvy enough to look for help from the MVP, but I suspect that was because he had people giving him advice who knew the MVP, and knew that the MVP could be used in this fashion, but who underestimate the backlash that would come--or believe they can somehow neutralize the MVP before the backlash comes.

Welcome to the reality of getting elected and campaigns. Of course he had people giving him advice - myself being one of them. If he didn't give two shits what you guys thought, he wouldn't have come.

You very well may have political experience...as do some other.....but a large portion of the FSP are very new to this. Yes, they are idealistic - and that's fine. I'm idealistic, too. I just know I can choose to be so idealistic that I accomplish absolutely noting or I work within the system to accomplish as much as I can. Digging my heels in the sand and holding my breath gets me nowhere.

As far as the FSP getting press - yes, they have. Sometimes I think that press hurt more than helped....if you're looking beyond the actual FSP members. I'm not going to sit here and argue about that - because there are two distinct schools of thought on publicity.

Quote from: ancapagency on March 21, 2008, 08:02 AM NHFT
Do not underestimate the resolve, nor the commitment of the Porcupines--the folks here were the top activists elsewhere in the country, and they PICKED UP THEIR ENTIRE LIVES AND MOVED FOR AN IDEA.  They moved across the entire country--many of them (like myself) hating the cold and snow, and moving far from friends and family.  Many of them gave up high paying jobs to come to NH and live on a shoestring while they engage in activism. Most of them left significant portions of their possessions to come here--and many left almost everything behind, and didn't look back.  I could continue, but I won't bother.

You know, I moved here long before the FSP even existed....for basically the same reasons. I did it without a group...I just did it. And I didn't look back either. I know other people who moved here for the same reasons.

Kelly persuaded me to come in and make some calls for the Guinta campaign. I did it because we were trying to create a shift toward liberty in the Manchester GOP and the idea was to get involved in Republican activism with the group in general and earn their trust and what not. I felt a certain obligation because I had already attended one meeting and we needed to attend three. Unfortunately, it was right in the middle of my revelation about politics and I had no desire whatsoever to support Guinta. There was no denying in my mind that many people were supporting him because he's a Republican and the Democrats must surely be worse, and nothing more.

I can't describe how uncomfortable I was with that one visit to his campaign office. I explained up front that I had a limited time (I already knew Kelly was really pushy so I had to be pro-active) and I called all the numbers they gave urging volunteers to show up for sign waves for Guinta. Once I was done with that list, I left, and that was a very clear turning point for me. I knew I couldn't honor my obligation to become a voting member of the Manchester GOP. It was a big lie and it made me extremely uncomfortable. I felt like puking. I knew that was the last effort I would ever make to promote any politician.

Quote from: ancapagency on March 20, 2008, 11:52 PM NHFT
don't trust a politician

Collectivist crap.
Ever chatted with an "A"-Rep?

"Don't trust athletes; I never had a girlfriend that wasn't stolen by an athlete"

Quote from: ancapagency on March 21, 2008, 08:02 AM NHFT
I'm looking forward to the coming ride--it's gonna be a blast.

Great post, ancap!   :icon_pirat:

Quote from: Tom Sawyer on March 20, 2008, 08:02 AM NHFT
Hey, wasn't this the guy that was supposed to be our buddy. F*@kin' fascists.

Guinta was sold to freestaters because he's such a tax-fighter. (His campaign as a whole was based on being anti-tax and anti-crime, if I recall). I don't think anything was even said about the remainder of his positions. I know that I certainly didn't do enough research into any of this, and I have a feeling that a lot of people who backed him made a similar mistake.

The lesson to take from this, for in-the-system activists, is that candidates need to be looked at as a whole before we decide to support them. The "80/20" rule—support someone who's good on 80% of the libertarian issues—is probably still valid here. (What's at issue is that Guinta is starting to look like "50/50" or perhaps "20/80.") There's one corollary I'd like to add: On that 20%, if they're going to work against us, we shouldn't support them, either. The point is to find 80% of things that you can both agree on, and not act at all on the differences—agree to disagree.

This whole thing is of increasing relevance as we go into a state representative election and we begin to look at candidates, especially since so many of us are working within the Republican party, and that seems to be the place where you most often find these "good on taxes, horrible on social freedom" types.

Uh...is anyone here even claiming that there was another mayoral candidate on the list who would have been less bad than Guinta?

As my letter to Guinta makes clear, it ain't about His Mayorness.
He has higher political aspirations (Governor) and I personally will work against him on that. Even if I have to back a candidate I only agree with 80% of the time -- if that candidate has the brains to quietly disagree on that 20%, not actively campaign against freedom from the bully pulpit and in the media.

god I don't even want to buy a house I want to buy a billboard on 95

Good God people, one (or even several) mistakes and you're all ready to put a stake in Guinta.

Maybe its just my way of thinking but even if a politician screws up as Guinta did here, unless they screw up big time I always fear that if we vote them out we'll end up with someone much worse.  Several here have said Frank was less bad then the person they voted out.... so why go back to someone even worse?  Sure if someone comes along even better then by all means support them but don't sink a ship without knowing what the other option is first.  It may be far worse.

It is quickly becoming a pattern of mistakes that makes Guinta appear very much more a mainstream Republican than a liberty-friendly one.

Police-statist Giuliani's major claim to fame is that, as New York City mayor, he "cleaned up crime" in the city (e.g., by arresting the homeless), and Manchester's "tough on crime" mayor endorsed him, which implies he endorses that, which made me very wary of supporting him. Guinta hasn't yet done anything like that, yet, but it's something to watch for.

And now there's this pro–drug war bullying... not exactly an improvement to his "liberty-friendly" appearance.

I'm still keeping an open mind, of course, and we'll have to see what the alternatives are in the gubernatorial election, or the 2009 mayoral election if he stays mayor. I think it's the gubernatorial election results that define the threshold for party ballot access in New Hampshire, so maybe I'll vote for the LP candidate, if there is one.

Quote from: Porcupine_in_NH on March 19, 2008, 11:33 AM NHFT
Give the kids an inch and they'll take a mile. Using marijuana will just lead to more dangerious drugs,

Like Ritalin?

Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 21, 2008, 01:29 PM NHFT
Uh...is anyone here even claiming that there was another mayoral candidate on the list who would have been less bad than Guinta?

Are we required to back a dog in every fight? 

Again, the problem is we will be known by the company we keep.  We are trying to do two things towards achieving "Liberty in Our Lifetime"--1) Attract Liberty-Lovers who agree with us to NH, and 2) Persuade those who don't understand the value of Liberty (or what it really is) that they should work with us towards this goal.  We have to convince people that our word is good--that we have real principles that we follow and uphold, and that we are NOT merely yet another political group jockying for position and telling people what they want to hear just so we can get our people in power.  And that we keep our word, and that when we endorse someone, that person is the right person to vote for.

I know, everyone who enjoys playing the political game out there and preaches including anyone who claims to agree with even part of one of our issues (if not our principles) is going to start frothing at the mouth and calling me "a damned dirty purist!" (sorry, just enjoying a little hyperbole, this morning).  And I promise you, I'm not.  If I was a purist, I'd refuse to work with any of you--because none of you are as good a Libertarian as me.   ;D    In fact, I am willing (as at least a few of you know) to work with you folks with whom I don't completely agree.  I review legislation for the NHLA, I even showed up at the State House the other day for the first time to wear the stickers and pass out the Gold Standard (which I whole-heartedly endorse) and so forth--despite being a "non-political."  I endorse Joel Winters and the other reps who are with us, even though they still do some things I don't agree with. 

But there is a big difference between people like Joel and those like Guinta.  I know that if Joel says he's going to do something, he'll do it.  I know that if I ask him to support something, and he disagrees with me, he'll give me a straight answer that he won't.  He won't weasel around and give me a non-committal answer, while trying to make me think he might support what I want him to when he has no intention of doing so.  Obviously, that is not the case with Guinta and others of his ilk. 

I recognize that there will be some measure of "practical politics" that is conducted under the umbrella of the NHLA and the other assorted organizations the members of the Porcupine Community are involved with.  And I understand that the Republican Liberty Caucus and so forth are our allies in a lot of issues and campaigns.  But there must also be some care taken to ensure that we aren't just assuming that because someone comes to the right meetings, and says a few nice things to us, and pays attention to us, and makes us feel like we are "a valuable part of their campaign" and so forth, that they aren't blindly endorsed   and supported by Porcupines--because if not, we will be used and discarded when we are of no more use, and our reputations will be destroyed--we will be seen as just another bunch of political junkies who say nice things, but ultimately can't be trusted.

Now, the NHLA operates in such a way that I think they are to a great extent insulated from this problem.  The principles are there, and all reps are graded against those principles--which, so long as the principles are not compromised (and I'm not suggesting they will be), means they will be trusted on their judgment.  "We endorse Rep Joe Snuffy because he's consistently been rated "B" on our report card--he votes with us 80% of the time, and that's pretty damn good at this time. The other candidate is pretty obviously an "F" and thus is so bad we need to keep them out..."  Thus, it's plain that we have our disagreements with Joe Snuffy, but we agree that he is significantly better than the opposition, and the exact areas of our disagreement and amount thereof is available for review by concerned parties.  And it is also plain that should the race be between an "A" rated rep and one who is rated "B," we will back the "A-rater."

Backing someone like Guinta, for something as amorphous as some claims that he is against taxes to some extent, doesn't even come close to this sort of discernment.  And it sets us up for this scenario next time around: "Hey, aren't you those guys who worked for Guinta?  You said he was a good guy, and that he was in favor of freedom and such, and then he did [insert anti-freedom action of choice here].  Why should I trust you guys?  You screwed me last time!"

I don't expect every Porcupine (including myself) to keep lily-white hands all the time.  I do expect us all to stand on our principles, and to keep our word, and to be open and honest about the people we bring to the group and ask the group to endorse.  I do expect us all to do our research before backing any politicians, and to honestly and openly rate them.  And to make it clear to those politicians we endorse that we expect them to live up to our agreements with them, and that there are consequences for their failure to do so.  And one of the things they need to do is to be open and honest with us when we ask them questions--tell them it is better to openly disagree with us on an issue than it is to lie or weasel. 

The politicians need to see us a a credible threat if they don't toe the line.  They need to be taught that if they pull crap like this on us, that their political career is over.  I know, easier said than done.  But we've got to start somewhere, and we need to be consistent and implacable.  I don't hold anything against those of the Porcupines who did work for Guinta--I honestly don't.  But they need to admit (to themselves--I'm not looking for any sort of public abasement or anything here) they were fooled, and learn from the experience.  They should  take a good, hard look at Guinta, do some background research, and start looking around for things to do to toss him out next election and replace him with someone who is significantly better.  Or, if that's not possible, at least "Do no more harm" and don't back anyone in the next election if there's no one available who is significantly better.

Quote from: d_goddard on March 21, 2008, 11:13 AM NHFT

Quote from: ancapagency on March 20, 2008, 11:52 PM NHFT
don't trust a politician

Collectivist crap.
Ever chatted with an "A"-Rep?

"Don't trust athletes; I never had a girlfriend that wasn't stolen by an athlete"

How about a more accurate analogy:  "Don't trust cops; every time someone arrested me when I had committed no force or fraud against anyone, it was a cop."

Or perhaps: "Don't trust cops; every time someone planted evidence on me so they could arrest me, it was a cop."

And so on.

Look, two points:  First, a statement like "don't trust politicians" is not equivalent to "everyone who is engaged in political action is a criminal bastard who should be shot and buried in the back 40" or even "everyone who holds an elected position...ditto."  We should, IMO, be very distrustful of politicians--people who have spent their lives in or trying to get elected offices.  Joel Winters, for example, is not a politician--he's a person who is politically active (for the right reasons) and has managed to get elected.  And he has proven he is a man of his word, and that he is trustworthy even if we don't agree with him on everything.  If some politician approaches us, we should not blindly trust his word.  We don't know this guy; we don't know if he can be trusted; we don't know if he really does agree with us, or if he's just trying to get us to spend our money and time on him.  So, we don't trust him until we have a reason to do so--either he proves himself to us, or people we know we can trust endorse him.  Nothing collectivist about that--just good sense.

Second, yes, generalizations are frequently specifically untrue, and are genuinely wrong when applied to most groups.  However, certain generalizations, when applied to self-selecting groups, are in fact generally true.  For example, I challenge you to argue rationally with the following generalizations:

*  "Porcupines believe in Freedom and Individual Liberty."

Yes, I suppose that there could possibly be a specific case of an individual who is a member of the FSP, and yet doesn't believe in Freedom and Individual Liberty.  But that would kind of defeat the purpose of joining the FSP, wouldn't it?

*  "Porcupines are in favor of ending the evil and counter-productive War on Drugs."

Again, I suppose there could be some Porcupines who are in favor of the Drug War, but as a general statement, it is generally true.

* "Porcupines are good folks, and believe in keeping their word.  If they promise you something, they'll deliver.  If they sell you something, they won't screw you over on the deal.  If you hire one, they'll do the job you hired them for.  If you loan one money, they'll repay it..."

Yes, even this one is, for the most part, true.  Sadly, there have been the odd exception, now and then.  But they were just that--exceptions.  And we should all be working to make the above statement as close to specifically true as possible.  And there's nothing collectivist about that.  We are a self-selecting group, and the above are supposed to be a big part of the reason for joining the group in the first place.

Now then, with reference to other self-selecting groups, specifically politicians, they are a member of the group PRECISELY BECAUSE they think they should be in charge of others.  Yes, there are the exceptions, but again they are just that--exceptions.  All other things being equal, and not knowing anything about a politician other than the fact that they are one, we should not trust them until adequate evidence to the contrary is available.

I'm in this for the long haul. I don't expect to get anywhere close to a libertopia in under 20 years.

We need to let the politicos know that we are a force to be reckoned with. If that means ending the political career of a politician and replacing them temporarily with someone a little worse, I'm fine with that. We'll end the replacement's political career as well. This is something I believe we need to do if we are going to get them to understand that we aren't going away.

I think ending GoonTard's political career, even if it means temporarily putting in a worse mayor/governor, will go a long way towards showing our strength and making freedom's enemies quake in their designer shoes.

I am suggesting we adopt the elimination of GoonTard's political career as a goal.

Quote from: Ron Helwig on March 22, 2008, 10:28 AM NHFT
I'm in this for the long haul.

Me too, but I still can't make it through ancapagency's posts.  :P

You have great points, man... when you can make 'em succinct, I might read more of 'em.

Quote from: d_goddard on March 22, 2008, 02:59 PM NHFT
Me too, but I still can't make it through ancapagency's posts.  :P

He's not as bad as Stefan Molyneux. :)

Quote from: Ron Helwig on March 22, 2008, 10:28 AM NHFT
We need to let the politicos know that we are a force to be reckoned with. If that means ending the political career of a politician and replacing them temporarily with someone a little worse, I'm fine with that. We'll end the replacement's political career as well. This is something I believe we need to do if we are going to get them to understand that we aren't going away.

I think ending GoonTard's political career, even if it means temporarily putting in a worse mayor/governor, will go a long way towards showing our strength and making freedom's enemies quake in their designer shoes.

I am suggesting we adopt the elimination of GoonTard's political career as a goal.

Heh, this reminds me of the "AIPAC strategy" I've talked about before—if a politician pisses these guys off (most often by opposing the cozy U.S.–Israeli relationship), they will end that politician's career, by throwing so much money at his opponent he doesn't stand a chance of being reëlected. This would certainly be a useful strategy, but I think it would directly undermine any claim that we have principles.

As for the specific case of employing this or anything else against Guinta, I still want to see what comes out of this whole situation. No doubt ny2nh has or will personally speak to the Mayor over this and let him know how badly he riled up some of his supporters. If he ends up issuing some sort of retraction or apology to Scannell, or even (unlikely, but hey) is somehow convinced to support the HB1623 reform efforts, I'd consider this incident to be closed.

Guinta's outrageous call for throwing out Scannell most likely worked to help polarize average people who were on the fence into _supporting_ HB1623, by turning it into a free speech (or at least free voting of your conscience) so it not only backfired, but likely cost him what little credibility and support he had left with many in the 'freedom circle'.

So in the end, that's a good thing: he burned a bridge quite publically, which is far better than quietly burning it behind people's back or in secret... and he made clear that he doesn't have much respect for individual freedoms as basic as the right to vote your conscience...

agreed, but we do need to keep on him over this enough so he doesn't do it again.

Quote from: lildog on March 21, 2008, 03:55 PM NHFT
Good God people, one (or even several) mistakes and you're all ready to put a stake in Guinta.

Maybe its just my way of thinking but even if a politician screws up as Guinta did here, unless they screw up big time I always fear that if we vote them out we'll end up with someone much worse.  Several here have said Frank was less bad then the person they voted out.... so why go back to someone even worse?  Sure if someone comes along even better then by all means support them but don't sink a ship without knowing what the other option is first.  It may be far worse.

Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 23, 2008, 02:39 PM NHFT
we do need to keep on him over this enough so he doesn't others learn not to do it again.

FTFY

Just keep smoking all!

Its only ILLEGAL if you get caught!

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on March 21, 2008, 04:39 PM NHFTPolice-statist Giuliani's major claim to fame is that, as New York City mayor, he "cleaned up crime" in the city (e.g., by arresting the homeless), and Manchester's "tough on crime" mayor endorsed him, which implies he endorses that, which made me very wary of supporting him.

I don't think that's a valid conclusion to draw.  People often times support or choose not to support a candidate based on only a handful of stances and not the candidates entire resume.  Often times you will find that choices presented to you of those running will leave you without someone who you agree with 100% so you're left having to pick who you support the most of what choices you have. 

Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 23, 2008, 02:39 PM NHFT
agreed, but we do need to keep on him over this enough so he doesn't do it again.

Quote from: lildog on March 21, 2008, 03:55 PM NHFT
Good God people, one (or even several) mistakes and you're all ready to put a stake in Guinta.

Maybe its just my way of thinking but even if a politician screws up as Guinta did here, unless they screw up big time I always fear that if we vote them out we'll end up with someone much worse.  Several here have said Frank was less bad then the person they voted out.... so why go back to someone even worse?  Sure if someone comes along even better then by all means support them but don't sink a ship without knowing what the other option is first.  It may be far worse.

Very true.

I wrote to the Mayor, to comment on his threatening behavior, and this is what I received, today, via email.

Dear Beth,

Thank you for your comments regarding this issue. I believe that Mr.
Scannell's vote on House Bill 1623 is contrary to his job as the Safe
Schools Coordinator for the Manchester School District, which has
policies regarding drug-free schools, a drug-free workplace, and school
curriculum regarding the dangers of drug use. In addition, as stated by
the executive director of the Makin' It Happen coalition in today's
Union Leader, which Mr. Scannell is a board member, this vote sends a
dangerous message to youth that marijuana use is not a big deal.

As a private citizen and as a legislator, he is certainly free to vote
as he chooses. However, as Mayor, as chairman of the Board of School
Committee, and as a parent, I believe his actions are concerning and I
also believe I have a responsibility to address this issue. Part of his
job is to work with agencies committed to keeping youth off drugs;
agencies like Makin' It Happen, who believe his vote was an ill-advised
one. It is my opinion that his vote has compromised his effectiveness as
well as the mission of the school district.

Again, thank you for your comments.

Frank Guinta
Office of the Mayor

I thought the bill would only make MJ semi-legal for those 18 and up... Either way, Guinta's jack-booted mentality makes him unfit to be mayor of the largest city in a Free State. Oh, and I suppose that Cheshire co jail superintendent Rick Van Wickler is unfit to be running a county jail since he's a LEAP guy ::)

I wonder what his thoughts are for teachers who like to booze it up a little on weekends.  Clearly that sends a very bad message to students too right?

i wonder what would happen if the mayor had a teenager, who got caught with a little dope, how would he react when his kid gets punished by the current law?  But then again, there would be no charges on him, most likely. 

I often see two perspectives from the same person, and while they do somewhat contradict each other, I can appreciate the differing views. What Frank Guinta may or may not do as the parent of a teenage child, or how he may personally feel about marijuana use - or even this particular piece of legislation....is different than what Frank Guinta the Mayor may have thought. I'm not making any excuse for him or implying that I know what his personal views might be.....but I can somewhat see that what one does in their profession life might not be 100% the same as in their personal life.The Mayor is the CEO of the city - and he seemed to be trying to hold one of his employees (who gets paid with your tax dollars and mine) to their job description - which includes an anti-drug policy aspect.

I know, I know, this was just a bill that reduced the penalty - not legalized or promoted drug usage among kids in any way. IMO, this was a more of a knee-jerk reaction than a thought out policy decision.

I'll choose to spend my energies explaining the issue better to those who I feel make mis-steps like the mayor did. How's that saying go - don't throw the baby out with the bath water....

Quote from: ny2nh on March 27, 2008, 11:29 AM NHFT
I know, I know, this was just a bill that reduced the penalty - not legalized or promoted drug usage among kids in any way. IMO, this was a more of a knee-jerk reaction than a thought out policy decision.

I think he is angling it from the aspect that this bill is a step closer to promoting drug use in our city.

As well it should! Pot is an incredibly useful drug that ought to be used far more often than it is now.  I never have been able to understand the fascination with this Guinta character.

i agree with you 100%.

He is angling it from the DRUGS ARE BAD M'KAY perspective. 

Well give him a doobie, m'kay. That'll loosen his necktie, m'kay.  :)

Apparently Guinta backed out of meeting with people at the Reagan Network tonight.

Quote from: d_goddard on March 27, 2008, 12:49 PM NHFT
Apparently Guinta backed out of meeting with people at the Reagan Network tonight.

Probably because he has decided against his run for governor. His budget has to be presented before the end of the month...that only leaves a few more days to work on it.

Quote from: ny2nh on March 27, 2008, 01:08 PM NHFT

Quote from: d_goddard on March 27, 2008, 12:49 PM NHFT
Apparently Guinta backed out of meeting with people at the Reagan Network tonight.

he has decided against his run for governor

Great!
:wav:

Let him stay Mayor of Manchester. That's not a lot of substantive damage to our liberties he can do there, except spend too much, and that's the one area he's good on -- not stealing (much of) the People's Wealth.
Hooray for Frank!

Another self-righteous, elitist fu*k!

Quote from: lildog on March 26, 2008, 02:29 PM NHFT

Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on March 21, 2008, 04:39 PM NHFTPolice-statist Giuliani's major claim to fame is that, as New York City mayor, he "cleaned up crime" in the city (e.g., by arresting the homeless), and Manchester's "tough on crime" mayor endorsed him, which implies he endorses that, which made me very wary of supporting him.

I don't think that's a valid conclusion to draw.  People often times support or choose not to support a candidate based on only a handful of stances and not the candidates entire resume.  Often times you will find that choices presented to you of those running will leave you without someone who you agree with 100% so you're left having to pick who you support the most of what choices you have. 

It wasn't a conclusion, it was grounds for suspicion. I'll draw a conclusion if I actually see him do something that confirms it. Manchester is currently working on some sort of "ten-year plan" to end homelessness in the city, so we'll see.

am i living in the wrong part of town?  I havent seen one homeless person, or anyone begging me for money.

I lived in a much larger city, in the "good" part of the city, and had my car broken into, for the change out of the console. 

Manchester doesnt seem to have a crime problem, well, not the type I was living with back in my old city. 

I havent heard one single gun shot, or seen a fight, or a car jacking, no hookers, no johns, no beggers.  Where is the bad part of Manch?

They congregate in Veteran's park and a few other places up and down Elm St.. Didn't Dan actually interview a bunch of homeless guys there during his Ridleo training?

The area where Pine and Hanover cross, too, seems to always have crowds of, I guess I'd say, "homeless-looking" people loitering about the sidewalks. And there's a shelter on Manchester St., and a sort of daytime assistance place on Orange St..

Quote from: Scowlin' Sara Jones on March 28, 2008, 10:23 PM NHFT
am i living in the wrong part of town?  I havent seen one homeless person, or anyone begging me for money.

I lived in a much larger city, in the "good" part of the city, and had my car broken into, for the change out of the console. 

Manchester doesnt seem to have a crime problem, well, not the type I was living with back in my old city. 

I havent heard one single gun shot, or seen a fight, or a car jacking, no hookers, no johns, no beggers.  Where is the bad part of Manch?

Yes, I want to know also where is the ghetto?

While we're on the subject, where is Chinatown?
Where is the gay part of town.
And where is the hip, artsy, alternative neighborhood?

Quote from: mackler on March 29, 2008, 02:32 AM NHFT
Yes, I want to know also where is the ghetto?

Well, Omega is now Murphy's, so I'm not sure where that would be....

Quote from: mackler on March 29, 2008, 02:32 AM NHFT
While we're on the subject, where is Chinatown?

The Manchester Buffet in Shaw's Plaza on So. Willow St.

Quote from: mackler on March 29, 2008, 02:32 AM NHFT
Where is the gay part of town.

313? The Element?

Quote from: mackler on March 29, 2008, 02:32 AM NHFT
And where is the hip, artsy, alternative neighborhood?

Peterborough? : )

Seriously though...Manchester, while considered a large city, doesn't seem to have the sections that yo might typically find in one. The ghetto - I would have to guess the center city area - Lake & Pine? - it's hardly a ghetto. We do have homeless and there is actually a plan to try and help get some of them back into housing, working, etc. They do tend to be more common in Veteran's Park and on Elm St. A gay neighborhood???? I wouldn't know - us Feds are all bigots and homophobes you know. : )

Quote from: ny2nh on March 29, 2008, 05:41 AM NHFT

Quote from: mackler on March 29, 2008, 02:32 AM NHFT
Yes, I want to know also where is the ghetto?

The ghetto - I would have to guess the center city area - Lake & Pine? - it's hardly a ghetto.

In 2004, during the first tour I got of Manchester, the 'bad' part of town was east of downtown, northern side of Manchester.  Of course, it wasn't very 'bad'.

Quote

Quote from: mackler on March 29, 2008, 02:32 AM NHFT
While we're on the subject, where is Chinatown?

The Manchester Buffet in Shaw's Plaza on So. Willow St.

Hehe... Seriously, Chinatown is in Boston... nothing in NH compares.

Quote from: ny2nh on March 29, 2008, 05:41 AM NHFT
We do have homeless and there is actually a plan to try and help get some of them back into housing, working, etc. They do tend to be more common in Veteran's Park and on Elm St.

A plan?  Am I not free to live homeless in NH?  Would if I choose to be homeless, and dont want to work, or live in a house??  What is that "plan" gonna do to me? 

hehe, I am just busting your balls a little bit. 

Quote from: mackler on March 29, 2008, 02:32 AM NHFT

Yes, I want to know also where is the ghetto?

City Hall Plaza area?   >:D

Quote from: Scowlin' Sara Jones on March 29, 2008, 10:03 AM NHFT

Quote from: ny2nh on March 29, 2008, 05:41 AM NHFT
We do have homeless and there is actually a plan to try and help get some of them back into housing, working, etc. They do tend to be more common in Veteran's Park and on Elm St.

A plan?  Am I not free to live homeless in NH?  Would if I choose to be homeless, and dont want to work, or live in a house??  What is that "plan" gonna do to me? 

hehe, I am just busting your balls a little bit. 

I thought a ten-year plan sounded weird, too. I guess it's more of finding a way for those who choose not to be homeless to stop being so. Yes, there are some that just choose to be homeless.....why, I never could understand.  :-\

Bust away whenever you want - I can take it.  ;)

Quote from: ny2nh on March 29, 2008, 05:41 AM NHFT
Manchester, while considered a large city, doesn't seem to have the sections that yo might typically find in one. The ghetto - I would have to guess the center city area - Lake & Pine? - it's hardly a ghetto. We do have homeless and there is actually a plan to try and help get some of them back into housing, working, etc. They do tend to be more common in Veteran's Park and on Elm St. A gay neighborhood???? I wouldn't know - us Feds are all bigots and homophobes you know. : )

Sounds bland.  Does Manchester even have neighborhoods?  Or is it just either "downtown" or not?

Manchester used to have a gay neighborhood in the Porc Manor area, but then I moved away.

The only fistfight I've ever seen was in Manchester.  We pulled over and Jack stopped it.

I just caught up with this thread.  A few comments:

(1) Seth's right, the Guinta-Scannell flap has definitely been a net positive for HB 1623.  (I'm glad to see some of you noticing that although this bill doesn't really do much, it is getting great media coverage and turning public opinion against prohibition.)

(2) Regardless of whether or not he deserves (or deserved) support from pro-freedom people, overall it's a damn good thing Guinta is Mayor of Manchester and not Tom Donovan.  Attacking Scannell over this vote is one mistake Donovan would not have made, but overall he would have been a disaster.

(3) If you thought Guinta was going to endorse Ron Paul, you really weren't paying attention that day.  I remember sitting there thinking, "I just hope he doesn't endorse Rudy." 

(4) Boy am I glad Guinta isn't running for Governor!

Great coverage, Dave!

Quote from: dalebert on March 30, 2008, 06:23 AM NHFT
Manchester used to have a gay neighborhood in the Porc Manor area, but then I moved away.

.....but then I moved in.

Quote from: ReverendRyan on March 30, 2008, 03:44 PM NHFT

Quote from: dalebert on March 30, 2008, 06:23 AM NHFT
Manchester used to have a gay neighborhood in the Porc Manor area, but then I moved away.

.....but then I moved in.

hows that working for ya there Rev?  Pound on the wall when you need a cigg!

Two ladies at work asked me on the same day if the decrim bill passed or not.  I know it had passed the house, but not sure on the senate, and that apparantly the governor wanted to veto it.  They seemed rather interested, even though I was not terribly informed.   ;D
Good job guys.