Interesting development/opportunity:
KPD's Lt. Shane Maxfield (http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Maxfield_Shane_379769578.aspx) has invited me on a ride-along. I spoke with him today by phone and thanked him for the invitation. I asked if I might forward the invite to Copwatch's Coconut and zaphar, and he said yes.
Maxfield works between 4:30p and 2:30a and can be reached to set up the ride-along at 357-9813 x 7083.
I asked if you could bring along a camera and ask questions, he said that would be fine. It is his intention to engage in discourse. He knows we are smart and will detect him "blowing smoke", so hopefully his answers will be straight. He doesn't want to have you if you will be planning an ambush or will be hostile - you will be his guest after all. I said I expected you would behave professionally, and that would not be an issue. I suggested we may collect some questions in advance in order to assure his comfort.
Are either of you gents interested in this? If so, perhaps forum participants can submit questions for Lt. Maxfield here on this thread.
i think its great gesture by the cops and a move in the right direction.
like i said, they need to do something to win over the trust of the commoners.
awesome Ian!
now if you could get them to understand the constitution and stay loyal to their oath.
==============================
a couple questions:
ask them how they feel about the Browns case
ask them if there was a high order to go door to door and take all the peoples weapons would they follow through ( ie Katrina)
ask them how they feel about arresting people for small amounts of weed and if they understand how damaging this is to an individual and what a violation of personal rights it is.
kola
He's one who's talked to Russell, Caleb and I quite a bit.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 02, 2008, 05:02 PM NHFT
He's one who's talked to Russell, Caleb and I quite a bit.
I peeked at his profile. He looks a bit chubby and has yellowish skin. I hope its not jaundice. eek
tactical callout? whats that? like mini swat stuff?
kola
other questions"
why did you become a cop
were you ever arrested before being a cop ? if so for what?
did you ever have a bad experience with a cop before you joined the force?
do you drink alcohol? if yes how much and how often
have you ever driven drunk?
have you ever smoked maryjane or done other drugs?
(maybe you should get him on a lie detector machine!) that would be cool.
what was your worst experience as a cop..and your best?
do you really like messing with your siren while going under bridges?
if hes white. would you marry a black women?
how do you feel about homosexuals?
err.thats it fer now
kola
a lie detector might be a difficult setup in a car.
I like the question you posted. . . what was your worst experience/best experience as a cop?
Dude, you rock!!! that fucking kicks ass!! WOW! I am not speechless often! I cant believe you got invited on a ride along! that means they are taking notice of the watchers! ROCK ON :icon_pirat:
My question is What made you decided to be a peace keeper?
How about "Are you amenable to starting a program where Copwatch participants regularly ride-along with cops, so that people in the community know immediately when cops do the wrong thing and, more importantly, so that so that cops are less likely to do the wrong thing and so that the community sees the cops are willing to work with them in order to provide a safer society?"
Quote from: Mike in CA on May 02, 2008, 07:01 PM NHFT
How about "Are you amenable to starting a program where Copwatch participants regularly ride-along with cops, so that people in the community know immediately when cops do the wrong thing and, more importantly, so that so that cops are less likely to do the wrong thing and so that the community sees the cops are willing to work with them in order to provide a safer society?"
ahh,,this is golden.
they may say decline and say something abou "liability issues"
offer to sign a waiver excluding them of any fault.
great question Mikey
Maxfield is apparently also in the USMC reserves.
Very interesting. It's good to see that at least some cops here are still amiable folks.
I'm honestly not really interested. I'm socially awkward enough as it is, and any conversation I have might just end up being a debate. I would feel "trapped" in conversation, being it unreasonable for me to ask to leave the situation in the middle of a ride-along. Perhaps someone can change my mind, but I don't feel like it would be a valuable or comfortable experience.
If no one was hurt and no property damaged, did a crime actually occur?
Quote from: Coconut on May 02, 2008, 08:00 PM NHFT
I'm honestly not really interested. I'm socially awkward enough as it is, and any conversation I have might just end up being a debate. I would feel "trapped" in conversation, being it unreasonable for me to ask to leave the situation in the middle of a ride-along. Perhaps someone can change my mind, but I don't feel like it would be a valuable or comfortable experience.
I know how you feel Cocount. There are very intimidating even when they are saying nice things. Maybe its their aura or the vibes they send..or maybe its just my paranoia. lol. Its a creepy feeling. Maybe its the uniform or their little mustaches too. I will tell you this I can smell one a mile away (even when they are out of uniform).
But I am really uncomfortable around them, ya know? Almost every encounter I had with them (and I had more than a few) was always bad. I feel safer around wild bears. lol.
just think how a black person feels about them? or now a muslim.
I think some of them really think they are keeping us safe form robbers and crooks but that isn' reality. those cases are far and few and if more common folks learn to fire weapons safely and accurately there is little need for them. I just see them as traffic-ticket-givers and invaders of personal freedom.
They need to learn to respect our rights and then maybe we will respect them a bit more. Maybe you guys can make some peace with them (in Keene) and that would be a fine example for all the rest of the cop shops. Its a big mess right now and more and more people are getting fed up with their actions. Either they will change... or change will come to them. Either by job elimination(out of work) or rioting. The black and hispanic communities (everywhere) are really being pushed to the edge. Lets hope there can be a peaceful solution.
Do what you feel is best Coconut. Its your call and no one would think less of you if you decided not to go along.
Kola
Quote from: kola on May 02, 2008, 07:25 PM NHFT
great question Mikey
Thanks, Kola.
Quote from: jjschless on May 02, 2008, 08:31 PM NHFT
If no one was hurt and no property damaged, did a crime actually occur?
This is a great question. Although it may just open up a philosophical discussion, and you might not want to do that with a cop, especially in his territory.
Coconut, I understand how you feel. While a ride-along has the benefit of seeing the cop in action (although of course he'll be on his best behavior), it might be far more comfortable if both you and the cop were in neutral territory, like at a restaurant or walking around downtown or something. It would also be far easier to leave in the middle of the "interview" that way. Or maybe you can agree to a 1-hour max ride-along or something, so you could perhaps experience the cop in action but also have an out before it draws on too long or becomes too awkward. Possibly.
If zaphar declines, perhaps FMTV will be interested...
I have some rationale behind my questions... Sorry for being wordy. :)
Sometimes gubbermint people play PR games and sometimes people actually do care. More realistically, I'm sure the level of activism in Keene is making some cops weary at the VERY least. Not understanding the philosophy of liberty, the buzz in the KPD could be that there's going to be riots any day now. :P
1.) What does he hope to gain/achieve with this ride-along?
Often times the excuse for enforcing non-violent laws is "I was just following orders" or sometiems the slippery slope arguement of "If we don't stop this guy, the next might take it one step further". There should come a time for EVERYONE where the order makes you question though.
2.) Are there any laws that he's aware of (I doubt he even knows about the puppet shows) that he wouldn't enforce? If not, why?
The general attidude of people is that they are uncomfortable near or actually fearful of law enforcement officials. Even people who will strongly defend government's existance will admit to both speeding AND being fearful of being pulled over (indicating they see no harm in speeding but still fear police force). Sometimes law enforcement actually justifies this fear off as "Anyone uncomfortable has somehting to hide" hinging on the presupposition that all laws are in fact just.
3.) As a law enforcement officer, why does he beleive police in general are despised? Does he beleive there's some reasonable truth behind the reasons given?
With the drug war "strong" and the number of non-violent offenders being arrested so high, how does the addition of firearms factor into this situation. If he suspected someone was selling some pot and noticed the person was open carrying, it's my opinion that he would approach this person as potentially "armed and dangerous" and with more hostility and force. We've all seen in the movies a scene where a drug dealer opens fire on a police officer to avoid or hinder being arrested.
4.) How does he feel about armed citizens? Given that police enforce victimless crimes AND the populace is entitled to be armed, what does he think PERSONALLY is the best way to keep law enforcement safe - ending the drug war or disarming the citizenry?
In the US, convicted felons are currently prohibited from exercising their full rights in terms of arming themselves. Considering that many drug offenses, certain tax crimes and certain other crimes are felonies and have NO victim...
5.) Does he support felons having the ability to carry firearms? Are there any circumstances where he beleives a felon should be able to reclaim this right? If NOT, what difference does he see between arming a non-violent person convicted of a felony and arming a non-violent person not convicted of a felony?
Of course, all of the questions posed by the other posters are great.
Finally, please extend my thanks to the officer. Thie invitation goes a LONG way to humanize the Keene Police. Even offering the conversation as a sign of equality is a far cry from what many police agencies around the world would tolerate, let alone invite.
Quote from: 'FTL_Ian'If zaphar declines, perhaps FMTV will be interested
I hope he doesn't decline. :( Two of my questions are gun related and Tim was the only one who came to the last Social Sunday carrying openly. He's earned a warm spot in my heart.
This sounds like fun.
- I wonder how they deal with the volume of laws that exist.
- Do they read and remember them all?
- I wonder how they feel about people they arrest.
- Have their friends or relatives ever disobeyed a law?
- Would they arrest their mother?
- Would they ever break a law?
- Have they ever broken a law?
- Did they ever arrest themselves?
- Do they have to be the witness and the prosecution like the state police do?
The assumption that the cops are corrupt or abusive misses the real issues.
It is the laws and, maybe more so, the procedures they are trained in that are the problem. It used to be getting pulled over was not necessarily going to lead to worse things. The cops now are trained to collect information... license and registration... run the info see if you are wanted etc. see if they can come up with a pretext to search the vehicle.
When I was younger, I got pulled over dozens of time and rarely got a ticket and many times never even had to show ID.
Quote from: kola on May 02, 2008, 05:24 PM NHFT
do you really like messing with your siren while going under bridges?
YES! I confess!!!!!
More great questions, Kevin. Good thinking. I also like this line of questioning from Lauren: "I wonder how they deal with the volume of laws that exist. Do they read and remember them all?" There's no way cops (or anyone) can know all the rules; perhaps they find someone they want to harass or give a ticket to, but don't really have a reason or only have a suspicion, so maybe they use their car-computers (or radio to someone at the office with the law books handy) to look for laws that are being broken (it can't be hard with the number of laws out there.
However, if that's not what happens, then a cop can't possibly claim to be enforcing the law, since they don't even know all the laws. So then you can go on to ask how they choose which laws they want to remember or enforce. And then maybe you can point out that if a cop can arbitrarily decide which laws to enforce, why can't people arbitrarily decide which laws to follow? And I think this very quickly leads to: what is a crime (i.e., is there a victim)?
As far as the ride along is concerned... you could look at it as a way to get good B-roll footage and a better understanding of their procedures.
lots of good questions!
I would LOVE to see them answered by one (or more) of the cops that are reading on this forum.
note: the only thing is that they have had time to read the questions and prepare their answers. I would rather see them have to think on their feet and have the questions presented directly in person.
give it a go guys?
Kola
maybe call it "servant homework".
Kola ;D
Quote from: Mike in CA on May 02, 2008, 07:01 PM NHFT
How about "Are you amenable to starting a program where Copwatch participants regularly ride-along with cops, so that people in the community know immediately when cops do the wrong thing and, more importantly, so that so that cops are less likely to do the wrong thing and so that the community sees the cops are willing to work with them in order to provide a safer society?"
On the one hand, it would probably stem a lot of abuse.
On the other hand, it's like "embedded reporters" in the military. At what point would copwatchers start to become biased, and just part of the system?
Quote from: 'Tom Sawyer'The assumption that the cops are corrupt or abusive misses the real issues.
It is the laws and, maybe more so, the procedures they are trained in that are the problem.
I have to say respectfully that I see no difference between these things. To me, unless a law enforcement offical has witnessed me committing a violent crime, or unless he or she is responding to a report of the same, I see that information gathering and law-breaking fishing expedition AS abusive. Rights violating laws are powerless without enforcement. If police stopped enforcing, prosecutors stopped prosecuting or prisons stopped holding people who violate laws that are ethically disagreeable, the law would be effectively irrelevant.
But I think I understand what you're getting at... That the LEO's intention isn't to weild power they just think that it's "their job". But to me, regardless of job description or training, the actions ARE abusive. The "not trying to be bad" angle actually frightens me a little more than the idea of intentionally abusive cops.
Quote from: 'C. S. Lewis'Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
If ordered to confiscate weapons from everyone, would you do it?
If ordered to round up people into camps, would you do it?
My suggestion would be to lay off the hard questions at the beginning.
Take the opportunity to build rapport with this guy--you want him to begin to see you as a good guy--not to put him on the defensive immediately, allowing him to cast you (in his mind) as a "bad guy."
Let him see you paying attention to what he does, let him talk to you about what he wants to talk about, and keep your questions light at the beginning. Build a relationship with this guy. Go on a few ride-alongs with him. Ask him what he cares about. Ask him what made him decide to become a LEO, how he likes the job, what he doesn't like about the job, what he really likes about the job. Get to know him as a person, take an interest in him as a person, and let him recognize that you see him as an individual and not just another cop. Like I said, build rapport.
When it comes up in the natural course of discussion, ask him the philosophical questions, political questions, see how he responds to the Non-Aggression Principle. Make sure you always ask the questions in a soft and non-threatening way. Try not to inundate him with a whole lot of hard questions and deep thoughts and profound philosophy at once. Take your time. Make a project of this guy. And let him change his own mind and come to our side, rather than trying to push him in the deep end to swim or drown right away.
It's tougher, and takes longer, and takes a lot of patience, and may run absolutely counter to what you want to do at the moment--but it'd be fast and easy to make a permanent enemy out of him. Take the opportunity to make an ally and friend out of him. He's a LEO, so chances are he's not even close to presently being in our camp. But he has made the offer, and that gives us the chance to carefully lead him into our camp, and make him an ally.
Obviously, I'm not saying that you shouldn't raise hell if you see him doing something really wrong. But it will probably be more productive if you can overlook his failings as much as possible, and be patient, and gradually make him a friend.
Also, make an effort to show him you're actually a good member of society, and don't go out of your way to make him see you as a "druggie" or "militia freak" or "conspiracy nut" or anything like that. And, at the risk of being contradictory, try not to be too evasive, either. If he asks you a question that doesn't incriminate you, especially about what you believe, take the opportunity to open up to him and be honest. If he asks you point blank if you think drugs should be legal, tell him: "Yes, as a matter of fact I do. I believe everyone owns their own body, and should be allowed to put or not put what they want to into it. I recognize that some people are going to be stupid about what they put into their bodies, but I don't see any reason you should have to risk your life and safety to prevent them from doing so." And unless he has a follow-up question, leave it at that for now.
Let him see you being calm, cool, and collected. Let him see you being a "stand-up guy" and a good member of society. And let him see you as someone he can confide in and trust. Be his friend if at all possible. It will be much more productive to make him an ally than to corner him into making some ill-advised (from his standpoint) comment in order to portray him as "just another thuggish cop." He may well be one right now, but if there's even the chance of winning him over to our side, it'd be good to do so.
Build rapport...make him feel like he's not a bad guy? Whatever the hell for? We don't need anything from them. They need something from us. That's why they're smoozing the copwatch guys.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 03, 2008, 05:51 AM NHFT
Build rapport...make him feel like he's not a bad guy? Whatever the hell for? We don't need anything from them. They need something from us. That's why they're smoozing the copwatch guys.
Hi Kat.
From someone who hears things from the inside of the NH law enforcement community - I can tell you that the Keene PD is a very respected law enforcement agency in our state. I have also heard nothing but good things about the police chief. An agency is only as good as the person at the top... and from everything I have ever heard Chief Walker sounds like a pretty decent guy.
I really think that the LT is holding out an olive branch to the liberty community. I would encourage you to not be as suspect of his motives... and I would take him up on his kind offer. I think that for many of you who have a general distrust of law enforcement that it would be a good experience. If nothing else you would learn good things and would be able to "teach", if you will, the officers you meet the general ideas of liberty.
It is indeed a hard concept for anyone to grasp at first. It takes time to realize the sad state of affairs that our country has been exposed to.... :o
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 03, 2008, 05:51 AM NHFT
Build rapport...make him feel like he's not a bad guy? Whatever the hell for? We don't need anything from them. They need something from us. That's why they're smoozing the copwatch guys.
agreed.
they are definitely smoozing.
in fact, the more I think about it, the more I think its a bad idea.
kola
I don't know of anything in particular the Keene police do that is corrupt or out of the norm. From all I've seen they ARE better than the other police around the state. When I say that they're not the good guys, it is the nature of their job, not the particular individuals I'm talking about. Every day they put people behind bars for victimless "crimes". Saying that they're just "doing their jobs" does not absolve them of the responsibility that they've used those guns to lock innocent people up. The Keene police are particularly bad about throwing people in jail for things like expired tags, driving with suspended license. I know a pregnant lady they tossed in jail for driving with a suspended license. She wasn't hurting anyone, yet there she was behind bars.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 03, 2008, 07:39 AM NHFT
I don't know of anything in particular the Keene police do that is corrupt or out of the norm. From all I've seen they ARE better than the other police around the state. When I say that they're not the good guys, it is the nature of their job, not the particular individuals I'm talking about. Every day they put people behind bars for victimless "crimes". Saying that they're just "doing their jobs" does not absolve them of the responsibility that they've used those guns to lock innocent people up. The Keene police are particularly bad about throwing people in jail for things like expired tags, driving with suspended license. I know a pregnant lady they tossed in jail for driving with a suspended license. She wasn't hurting anyone, yet there she was behind bars.
Well I absolutely respect your opinion, but, why pass up an opportunity to learn how the system works from within?
Learning can never be anything but positive. Even if you vehemently hate the experience I am willing to bet you would have learned something.....
I've been in too many cop cars already.
Let me give you another example, and why I'll never call 911.
My husband was having an asthma attack, got a bloody nose and passed out. I freaked out and tried to get an ambulance by dialing 911. They took so long on the phone, I hung up and helped him myself. Well, three police cars showed up and insisted on seeing him. When they came in, they carefully scanned the house for illegal items, drugs or whatever. I was so mad, I vowed never to call 911 again. They were not there to help. They were only there to hurt us.
That was the Keene police, BTW.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 03, 2008, 05:51 AM NHFT
Build rapport...make him feel like he's not a bad guy? Whatever the hell for? We don't need anything from them. They need something from us. That's why they're smoozing the copwatch guys.
I understand that. And remember--I said that I didn't mean you shouldn't raise hell if you see him doing something particularly heinous. But my point is that it would be more productive to convert this guy, than to immediately polarize him for all time against us. He may presently be merely an unthinking dupe. Immediately treating him as a nazi thug because he's a cop rather than getting to know him as an individual may turn him into a really nasty nazi thug.
The idea is that by letting him see that WE aren't immediately on that attack, and trying to treat him as just one of a group of faceless thugs, we help him see US as good guys. And if he sees us as good guys, then perhaps he won't be so quick to judge all pro-Liberty folks as annoying criminal whack-jobs. And thus, he may find it more easy to start changing his mind about some things--and perhaps some day we have a guy who tips us off before the cops come busting in to arrest us for being dissidents. Or maybe we end up with a guy who openly and publicly refuses to follow an immoral order--such as going door to door to confiscate guns, or to arrest that anti-war protester for sitting there peacefully with a sign.
It may be that this guy is already so far gone that he is for all time an enemy of freedom. But, in this particular situation, we may be able to slowly win him over--and everyone we take from the enemy's camp is a win for us.
I'm not saying Copwatch should spend all its time "embedded" with the cops, nor am I saying we shouldn't condemn the evils we see the cops committing. I'm just saying that since we want them to treat us as individuals, and fairly and justly, we ought to do the same.
It's largely a matter of tactics and strategy. Tactically, we stand a better chance of winning this guy over via the methods I mentioned, than by immediately cornering him with tough questions and going out of our way to call him a thug. And strategically, winning over a few guys within the department, we stand a better chance of making the Keene PD a "kinder, gentler" department in the short term, and of winning the whole struggle in the long term.
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on May 02, 2008, 08:49 PM NHFT
This sounds like fun.
- I wonder how they deal with the volume of laws that exist.
- Do they read and remember them all?
- I wonder how they feel about people they arrest.
- Have their friends or relatives ever disobeyed a law?
- Would they arrest their mother?
- Would they ever break a law?
- Have they ever broken a law?
- Did they ever arrest themselves?
- Do they have to be the witness and the prosecution like the state police do?
If zaphar declines, it might be interesting for you to attend, Lauren. It could be a news item of it's own:
"Lauren Canario VOLUNTARILY enters a police car!"
Quote from: ancapagency on May 03, 2008, 05:40 AM NHFT
My suggestion would be to lay off the hard questions at the beginning.
Take the opportunity to build rapport with this guy--you want him to begin to see you as a good guy--not to put him on the defensive immediately, allowing him to cast you (in his mind) as a "bad guy."
I agree. You can always burn a bridge when you want to, but you'll only get one chance at that. Why not make a good-faith effort to do some bridge-building before declaring them a lost cause? It would be more useful if your first ride wasn't your last.
As far as questions to ask, a lot of the questions people are posting I would like to hear the answer to, but they don't seem to take particular advantage of being on duty, in the car, on the beat with officers. These questions could just as easily be asked during an interview in an office. The most useful questions, in contrast, would be asked in response to the particulars of what is happening at the moment: "why are we pulling this driver over? How typical is it to pull someone over for that? Are you giving him a ticket? Arresting? Is that typical? What crimes are you observing that we're not responding to?" Questions like that would more take advantage of the opportunity that's being offered.
As for the the super-provocative questions such as "Is your wife African-American? Why not? Are you racist?" Asking questions like that, IMHO, would just waste the chance you're getting to look inside the PD's operations, and make a bad impression not only with the officers but with many viewers.
no one is going to "win the cops over".
that is a fantasy.
any new cop that has morals and common sense will soon realize what a crock of shit LE is and he/she wil quit a get a real job. Thats pretty rare because the people who are attracted to LE work are powertrippers and authority seekers. They WANT that position and lets face it, they have now become above the law.
Kola
Kola, is that your opinion on every single cop on earth? Or just certain ones?
Do you think cops can reform, see the light? Or work from within the system?
I love Barry Cooper, he is my favorite, x cop, and I support cops who belong to LEAP.
I have a feeling you are looking all cops, like people look at pit bulls, they all are mean, bite, and will kill babies. When in fact, pit bulls are great family dogs.
(sorry to compare the good cops to dogs, lol, I refrained from using pigs!)
I just think you have to give human beings a chance. Its like saying you hate all dentists because they all hurt, all lawyers lie, all cops are bad, all politicians are evil, no matter what the believe, or what party they belong to. Open your mind. Some will change, and some wont, those you can hate, lol.
Maxfield is fair-minded. He truly believes that he is the vanguard holding the forces of evil in check to protect the defenseless citizens of his watch. He doesn't seem to be in any hurry to hurt people for the sake of hurting them.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 03, 2008, 10:06 AM NHFT
If zaphar declines, it might be interesting for you to attend, Lauren. It could be a news item of it's own:
"Lauren Canario VOLUNTARILY enters a police car!"
I WANNA SEE THAT HEADLINE!
Quote from: Sapphire on May 03, 2008, 11:50 AM NHFT
Kola, is that your opinion on every single cop on earth? Or just certain ones?
Do you think cops can reform, see the light? Or work from within the system?
I love Barry Cooper, he is my favorite, x cop, and I support cops who belong to LEAP.
I have a feeling you are looking all cops, like people look at pit bulls, they all are mean, bite, and will kill babies. When in fact, pit bulls are great family dogs.
(sorry to compare the good cops to dogs, lol, I refrained from using pigs!)
I just think you have to give human beings a chance. Its like saying you hate all dentists because they all hurt, all lawyers lie, all cops are bad, all politicians are evil, no matter what the believe, or what party they belong to. Open your mind. Some will change, and some wont, those you can hate, lol.
The LEO system is designed in such way that even a good person cannot be a good cop. Hows that?
And if he continues in the sytem he is voluntarily participating in something that is bad. He has a choice to leave yet he stays. Although he or she may have wanted to be a cop to "save lives and keep the streets safe" they should inherently know (after working inthe field briefly) that they really do not do anything close to that.
The only good cop I know of is retired Lt. Jack McLamb. He had the guts to speak out and do what was right. And that was get out of LE and tell others what REALLY is going on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuQl0_OSaJs
Kola
All "good cops" leaving the force would leave you with a police force that:
- Has no internal resistance to gross human rights violations.
- Confiscates property at whim to fund itself.
- Confiscates firearms at will to consolidate power.
- Imprisons any dissenters, internal or external.
This is not a model prone to its own collapse, it's self-perpetuating.
Working for any tax-funded agency is immoral in my eyes, but "good cops" do the dirty work of preventing, or at least slowing, the expansion of the police state.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Doctor Pope Sir Ryan on May 03, 2008, 12:32 PM NHFT
All "good cops" leaving the force would leave you with a police force that:
- Has no internal resistance to gross human rights violations.
- Confiscates property at whim to fund itself.
- Confiscates firearms at will to consolidate power.
- Imprisons any dissenters, internal or external.
This is not a model prone to its own collapse, it's self-perpetuating.
Working for any tax-funded agency is immoral in my eyes, but "good cops" do the dirty work of preventing, or at least slowing, the expansion of the police state.
:clap:
Explain how they actually do this.
Quote from: Sapphire on May 03, 2008, 11:50 AM NHFT
Its like saying you hate all dentists because they all hurt,
Forget the dentists, the real problem is those hygienists! You ever had a root planing? Talk about pain! Yow!
lol
Quote from: Caleb on May 03, 2008, 11:50 AM NHFT
Maxfield is fair-minded. He truly believes that he is the vanguard holding the forces of evil in check to protect the defenseless citizens of his watch. He doesn't seem to be in any hurry to hurt people for the sake of hurting them.
Thank you Caleb.
Hello zaphar, I was about to post: "Echo..echo...echo........"
If you wish you can call me at the pd or meet me tonight wherever you choose, however you choose, with whomever you choose to discuss it. I'm flexible.
-Shane
do cops have to take urine or blood test to make sure they are not using drugs or drinking booze on the job?
if not, they should.
Kola
I will volunteer to go, if no one else is interested.
I agree with Kat. It isn't corruption I really expect to see, even on the copwatch struff. It is the victims of arrest who have done nothing more serious than live their lives in an enjoyable manner, and are arrested for victimless crimes. I care about people and it saddens me to see them harmed for a 'cure' that is worse than the 'crime'.
Since my effort at detente in offering a "Cop-Ride" to your "Cop Watchers" is being mostly met with [insert less than savory descriptive noun of your choice here], except now perhaps for David, perhaps I should break the ice by answering some of your questions here. Most of them are pretty reasonable and fair, a few make me uncomfortable and couple are just "gotcha" questions that are probably "unwinnable" for me, and I'm sure I'm in for a drubbing as those answers are dissected and tossed back at me.
There are a lot of them, so I'm going to reply to the questioners separately (I'm not very versed in this forum thing so I can't tack together posts from multiples of y'all). This will certainly take a while, and since I can't marry myself to this keyboard all night I'll probably continue during Sunday nights shift (provided you all haven't clicked that IGNORE button, which I assume mutes me).
Remember, these are my opinions, NOT the official opinions of KPD. None of the questions so far request supersecret, proprietary info, so I'm going to be candid (otherwise I'd just ignore the question). You may think I'm blowing smokerings up your butts at times, but I'm not.
Some of my colleagues think I'm nuts. Here goes.
Quote from: kola on May 02, 2008, 04:43 PM NHFT
i think its great gesture by the cops and a move in the right direction.
like i said, they need to do something to win over the trust of the commoners.
awesome Ian!
now if you could get them to understand the constitution and stay loyal to their oath.
==============================
a couple questions:
ask them how they feel about the Browns case
ask them if there was a high order to go door to door and take all the peoples weapons would they follow through ( ie Katrina)
ask them how they feel about arresting people for small amounts of weed and if they understand how damaging this is to an individual and what a violation of personal rights it is.
kola
Again, these are my personal opinions:
Re: the Browns, I'm not particularly happy with all the taxes I pay either, but there are other (smarter) ways of going about it. Good way to get headlines, bad way to stimulate change. I'm glad no one got killed.
Re: Going door to door seizing weapons. I would not, and I doubt many others in NH would either.
Re: arresting people for weed. I think the war on drugs is a clear failure and there needs to be a major overhaul in the drug laws. Much crime can be traced to some peoples need to "score" illegal drugs. If the laws were different, probably the addict from MA wouldn't need to try to steal $600 in DVD's from our WalMart to get his next fix. I don't claim to have the perfect solution, however the way it is no isn't working, in my opinion. Very often people are arrested already for something else, and then they have drugs on them. Sometimes people are given breaks, sometimes not. Many factors involved usually. At this point, they're illegal and I'm not going to hassle my officers either way for giving a break or not. Most of us around here are pretty reasonable.
Quote from: kola on May 02, 2008, 05:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 02, 2008, 05:02 PM NHFT
He's one who's talked to Russell, Caleb and I quite a bit.
I peeked at his profile. He looks a bit chubby and has yellowish skin. I hope its not jaundice. eek
tactical callout? whats that? like mini swat stuff?
kola
Hahaha! This actually sent me into a tailspin for about ten minutes until I figured it out. I was looking in my rearview mirror saying "What the hell...maybe it's the streetlights?"
The info from this site is old. I retired from the Marines in 2005 with 20yrs 3mos in the infantry, mostly the Reserves with multiple activations. I've been with Keene my entire career, it's a great community and the PD is good to work for.
I've been with KPD for about 16yrs.
Replying to kola's next series, again all my personal opinion and experiences...and no bs.
why did you become a cop - I wanted to either fly Harriers for the Marines or be a cop. I didn't have the grades in college to be a pilot, so I went infantry and then cop. The philosophical "why" is because I wanted to help hold civilization / society together.
were you ever arrested before being a cop ? if so for what? - No, just traffic tickets.
did you ever have a bad experience with a cop before you joined the force? - Aside from traffic tickets (and yes I still dread getting pulled over for anything), the one cop experience I remember was a positive one (I was perhaps in 6th grade and thought there was a burglar in the house).
do you drink alcohol? if yes how much and how often - Yes. I don't particularly like the taste, except for mead, so I suppose if I averaged it out over a year it'd look like one or two drinks a month. Once or twice a year, when I'm among friends and someone else is going to drive, I'll get blotto. Funny/friendly, not mean, though.
have you ever driven drunk? - Yes, I was a senior in high school, coming home from a keg party. I was so f'd up I drove the 4 miles at about 10mph (being reeeeeealllly careful and aiming for the center of my lane). I was pretty disgusted with myself and haven't done that since.
have you ever smoked maryjane or done other drugs? - No, I think most of my siblings (older) have, but I have not. Had some opportunities, chose not to.
(maybe you should get him on a lie detector machine!) that would be cool. - Been there, still here. Pretty much straps on, the operator wouldn't like it if I sat on his laptop.
what was your worst experience as a cop..and your best? - Worst, hands down: CPR with a partner on a young boy in cardiac arrest. We worked and worked, and I'm thinking "where's the ambulance?" He kept spitting up gobbets of blood, so we had to try to clean him out and continue. The mother was standing right there and the kid was clearly dead but we kept trying. After the ambulance got there I wanted to just crawl in a hole. To add to the experience, it turns out the kid had an aggressive internal cancer of some sort, and the parents chose to do the herb thing, and when that failed they just eased his pain until he died...the mother knew he was beyond help before she even called us several minutes after he stopped breathing. Cap it off with she wrote a nice Thank You letter to the Editor in our local paper, thanking a whole cast of people involved, including the ambulance folks, but omitted us. I'll take that one to my grave. BEST: CPR, by myself, on a late 40's woman, in front of a local restaurant, while a crowd of diners waiting for their tables stood by and just watched. She lived. That's one out of I think five, for me. Not a great record I guess.
do you really like messing with your siren while going under bridges? Ummmm, no. Actually, at the start of our shifts we check the cruiser equipment under the carport at the PD. I just do a little "bloop" and I know it works. Some of the younger guys / girls lay on it for two or three seconds, which irritates the crap out of me. I mean, if the hi-low works, the warble will too for heaven's sake!
if hes white. would you marry a black women? - I am white, and I would marry a black woman (or whatever color she happened to be).
how do you feel about homosexuals? No problem. I've worked / travelled / socialized with several of both types, with nothing, at all, negative to report.
Quote from: Beth221 on May 02, 2008, 06:02 PM NHFT
Dude, you rock!!! that fucking kicks ass!! WOW! I am not speechless often! I cant believe you got invited on a ride along! that means they are taking notice of the watchers! ROCK ON :icon_pirat:
My question is What made you decided to be a peace keeper?
Again, all my personal views:
Great question. I agree with much on these forums, though when, in my opinion, they slip over the edge of reality and reasonableness I pull the cord to be let off at the next stop, so to speak. I see lots of planning and effort resulting in some tactical actions (the level of success of these being debatable), but not a whole lot of strategic thought. I wanted to open a useful discourse, illuminate some concepts and offer some strategic advice. Plus, of course, we'd be in a position to observe the happenings of the City, the Police interaction therein etc. etc. When two sides of any issue refuse to even talk civilly to each other, or we paint each other with broad brush strokes based upon the actions of a few bad apples, not much "advancement" happens.
Quote
do you really like messing with your siren while going under bridges? Ummmm, no.
The good Lieutenant seems like a great guy.... but I must disagree with him on this. The siren sounds way cool under a bridge!
Who knows, if you ride with him he may just even let you play with the airhorn! :o 8)
Quote from: Mike in CA on May 02, 2008, 07:01 PM NHFT
How about "Are you amenable to starting a program where Copwatch participants regularly ride-along with cops, so that people in the community know immediately when cops do the wrong thing and, more importantly, so that so that cops are less likely to do the wrong thing and so that the community sees the cops are willing to work with them in order to provide a safer society?"
I've spent coming up on two days now trying to get ANYONE from CW to ride with me, but apparently everyone thinks it's my natural lust to immediately take them behind Wal Mart and beat the crap out of them with my stick (OK, not everyone, to be fair). That's no more realistic than CW being able to provide the riders for each cop, 24 / 7 / 365.
This city is small enough, and there are P-for-plenty of people scrutinizing us (including, for example, the jail intake folks, the public defenders, the local paper etc. ad nauseum), not to mention we have a pretty well-developed (and well-used) internal quality control system (read: discipline), that I think it would be nearly impossible for us to get away with the ole' "take him behind Sears and wail the tar out of 'im" thing. No one around here thinks it is worth their careers to try that.
I'm all for oversight, and except for when it seems they're trying to be overly intrusive and obnoxious (my opinion, folks!) your CW folks don't really bother my officers or me (at least after the first shock of "what the hell?" the first night!). Come on out and say hi, not just "Hi, we're with CopWatch and we're filming you, you goon, because we know you want to break that citizen's legs for having a tail light out." I paraphrase, of course.
The thing that IS truly irritating is the constant drumbeat that if you guys aren't always right there, scrutinizing us on camera, that we're immediately going to do something horrible to a random citizen behind Wal Mart. Or, if there's only one of you you'd better watch out because you're gonna get beat / sprayed / shot. Give me a break.
While there have been, recently, some posters who have said "Keene cops really aren't that bad," etc. (isn't that an item on the one hundred and whatever reasons to move to Keene?), and we appreciate those comments, there have recently and in the past, been plenty of amazing stuff said with little retort. An example being a comment made by a regular about a child and the cops, months ago, which included the word "gangrape"...you reg'lars probably remember it. To my recollection, while there were some "that's tacky" type comments, and he was zapped on his "karma" (oh my!) no one stood up and said that Keene cops aren't like that, that we would never do that. I find that pathetic. That's the kind of craziness that drags the rest of the good stuff down.
Quote from: highline on May 04, 2008, 12:44 AM NHFT
Quote
do you really like messing with your siren while going under bridges? Ummmm, no.
The good Lieutenant seems like a great guy.... but I must disagree with him on this. The siren sounds way cool under a bridge!
Who knows, if you ride with him he may just even let you play with the airhorn! :o 8)
Crap...I'm gonna have to try it, now. We don't have too many good bridges...hmmmm, and I am on until 0700 Sunday morning.
Quote from: Puke on May 02, 2008, 07:36 PM NHFT
Very interesting. It's good to see that at least some cops here are still amiable folks.
And your photography kicks a$$. "Much talent, he has," Yoda would say.
And, thanks for your service.
Quote from: Coconut on May 02, 2008, 08:00 PM NHFT
I'm honestly not really interested. I'm socially awkward enough as it is, and any conversation I have might just end up being a debate. I would feel "trapped" in conversation, being it unreasonable for me to ask to leave the situation in the middle of a ride-along. Perhaps someone can change my mind, but I don't feel like it would be a valuable or comfortable experience.
Hmmm...last time I had a conversation with you I thought it was pleasant. Over the phone, though.
Quote from: jjschless on May 02, 2008, 08:31 PM NHFT
If no one was hurt and no property damaged, did a crime actually occur?
My opinion on this:
This is a fantastic question, one that I've read here over and over. There many laws, many of which I think make sense, many of which I think are stupid. While that would seem to be a valid argument for some situations (and we could debate this question for days), it doesn't hold for all. For example:
Let's say a young man on a rocket-bike routinely does wheelies down your street at a high rate of speed. You've tried to talk to him, he just flips you off. You've declined to do something offensive to him, like putting cord-wood in the road like speedbumps, so he keeps doing it. One day, he loses control and kills your neighbors five-year-old twins. Perhaps (I say probably) many people will end up saying why wasn't anything done before he killed someone? By this "tree falling in the woods" argument, there was nothing to do until you have actual victims. Now you've got two dead five-year-olds because there was nothing to deter the driver until an actual crash. That's a shitty consolation prize for the grieving parents. Someone should have called the cops on him soon after reason failed.
Same argument for drunk drivers. Hey, most of the time they actually make it home, perhaps with some new scrapes and dents in their cars. Y'all are hanging out at Vendetta's one night, you see a clearly drunk guy stagger to his car and start it up. His control and operation are horrible as he backs out into the rotary, then goes against traffic and up Court Street. Well, he hasn't hit anyone yet, so no victims, no crime. Let's get back to our pitchers! This also is no consolation when, in front of the American Legion, he plows into my minivan and kills my wife and kids. No reason to do anything, for any reason, unless there's a victim? Well, think about it...there's never a victim, until BAM there's a victim. I would opine that there's a moral responsibility to do something BEFORE you get victims.
Now of course come the what-abouts (what about registrations, or plate lights out, or dumpsters without fences around them etc.) The reasonings behind all the other stuff is varied...some seems sound to me, others stupid, some seem to be revenue-generators, others just leave me scratching my head.
I think there are over a thousand members of this forum. Most of them do not live in Keene and have negative views of the government in general, so officers are sometimes painted with the same broad brush as all of government, without consideration of the fact that each officer is an individual. Those on this forum who live in Keene, from my experience, do not believe that the Keene Police Department is corrupt by police standards.
I can only speak for myself, but I imagine most on here would agree with me: My own personal dealings with the Keene Police were, with one exception only, very cordial, and I respect you and your colleagues very much ... as people.
But just like me, you do a job. And sometimes your job involves enforcing laws that I feel ought not be enforced. The innocent are punished, where the law stands guilty. I believe that you want to do the right thing, and that you are trying to fight the bad guys. But your law makes too many bad guys.
I for one don't like slander, and when people call the police names and attack your character, I don't like that, unless it's true of course. I have seen cops who like hurting people, who are almost drunk with their own power. I don't think that's fair to say of most on your department.
That having been said, I think there's a little perspective to be had. How many murders happened in Keene last year? How many rapes? There's just not that many bad guys in Keene. But the other day I linked to an Congressional report that found that the CIA commits over 100,000 serious crimes each year. Please try to understand that those of us on this forum, for the most part, are trying to do exactly what you are trying to do: stand up to bad guys.
Regarding Kevin Dean's questions, and again these are my opinions:
Sometimes gubbermint people play PR games and sometimes people actually do care. More realistically, I'm sure the level of activism in Keene is making some cops weary at the VERY least. Not understanding the philosophy of liberty, the buzz in the KPD could be that there's going to be riots any day now.
1.) What does he hope to gain/achieve with this ride-along? - See my earlier post that talks about detente for my reasonings. That's it, I have no secret agenda. I'm not aware of any weariness over the whole thing, at least on our local level, except the weariness of some of my peers at my interest in it! No buzz of riots, because while there is certainly a core of a dozen or less local FS'rs who show up at functions (I admire their dedication), those numbers a riot doesn't make...and I get the feeling the local populace isn't too concerned with the 5-oh because they're glad we're here, so there won't be any angry, seething masses any time soon, at least concerning the police. No intention to belittle anyone or your intent, which I agree is basically good. The huddled masses just aren't bothered that I stop them to let them know their right headlight is out.
Often times the excuse for enforcing non-violent laws is "I was just following orders" or sometiems the slippery slope arguement of "If we don't stop this guy, the next might take it one step further". There should come a time for EVERYONE where the order makes you question though.
2.) Are there any laws that he's aware of (I doubt he even knows about the puppet shows) that he wouldn't enforce? If not, why? - Ummm, I have never written a ticket for "plate light out" , though I have stopped folks for it. I've been stopped for that. But seriously, you have to think about the definition of "enforce." For me, "traffic enforcement" means modifying driver behavior in a positive fashion, be it causing someone to stop driving like an a-hole, or encouraging someone to repair their car, which is falling apart. Sometimes in my judgment it takes a ticket. Sometimes it just takes a "Hey, you rolled through that stop sign back there and the kids just got let out of school. Be careful, would ya?" Perhaps if I ask a kid I'm dealing with who stinks of pot, if he's carrying any today, he'll be honest and fork over a half-smoked joint. Maybe he won't get charged and he'll walk away with the advice "How 'bout using your head and not smoke it in your dorm room, on campus, right next to your RA's room??" But the guy who hits my cruiser with a long-neck beer bottle and forces me to run after him through a couple back yards, when I find the baggy on him one would surmise a "stern talking-to" won't do much to modify his behavior from being an a-hole, he'll probably get charged because that legal smack is about all he'll understand.
Without being all-knowing of every RSA, I'm sure there are some I'd decline pursue unless pressed to.
The general attidude of people is that they are uncomfortable near or actually fearful of law enforcement officials. Even people who will strongly defend government's existance will admit to both speeding AND being fearful of being pulled over (indicating they see no harm in speeding but still fear police force). Sometimes law enforcement actually justifies this fear off as "Anyone uncomfortable has somehting to hide" hinging on the presupposition that all laws are in fact just.
3.) As a law enforcement officer, why does he beleive police in general are despised? Does he beleive there's some reasonable truth behind the reasons given? - I'll agree that most people tend to be uncomfortable around cops...I was in a convenience store on the way to work yesterday and there was a Swanzey cop grabbing a bite, and I'll admit I didn't even know him and I was a bit uncomfortable, I don't know why because I KNOW we're not all ready to club random citizens. But to leap from that to the phrase "police in general are despised" is off that deep end I spoke of earlier. Maybe we're despised in certain areas, or by certain groups or whatever, but it just isn't universal. Take an honest poll in Keene and you'll find not a lot check the "despise them" box. Now, for those who really do, I think most of them have some truth behind their reasoning. Apparently Kola's experiences are almost exclusively negative. That's unfortunate, and I'd be curious as to the circumstances. Possibly some of the despisers got a ticket they disagreed with and hate because of that, maybe some jackass ran a red light and almost killed them and, of course, there wasn't a cop around because "they're all at the donut shop." Everyone has a reason, there's usually some basis of truth behind it. Sometimes, however, they're just angry, disagreeable SOB's and the police make easy targets. Maybe some of them had bossy mothers, I don't know. I've seen the whole spectrum.
With the drug war "strong" and the number of non-violent offenders being arrested so high, how does the addition of firearms factor into this situation. If he suspected someone was selling some pot and noticed the person was open carrying, it's my opinion that he would approach this person as potentially "armed and dangerous" and with more hostility and force. We've all seen in the movies a scene where a drug dealer opens fire on a police officer to avoid or hinder being arrested.
4.) How does he feel about armed citizens? Given that police enforce victimless crimes AND the populace is entitled to be armed, what does he think PERSONALLY is the best way to keep law enforcement safe - ending the drug war or disarming the citizenry? - Personally, I'm all for armed citizens, I'm aware of a couple incidents where they've been armed and held their own until we got there. All I want is for them to use their heads when we DO get there (because we ARE coming) and instead of waving the pistol around shouting about their 2nd Amendment rights, just do what we tell you until we sort it all out. In both cases I'm thinking of, the citizens were in the right, did basically what we told them to do when we got there, and walked away with happy endings, bad guys arrested and them free to fieldstrip and clean their pistols to their hearts content (and the one guy free to reload the two rounds he had fired). I'm all for the 2nd Amendment. Open carry trash pickup? Good for you. Now, as a courtesy perhaps you'd let us know because there will be citizens (there are those who fear the gun, even when it's sitting on the coffee table) who call us all in a tizzy and I'd like to be able to tell them "Don't worry about it...it's all good, and their cleaning your street up." Last year (or the year before) there was a fellow mowing his lawn in a heavily residential area packing a nice 1911. That was cool.
In the US, convicted felons are currently prohibited from exercising their full rights in terms of arming themselves. Considering that many drug offenses, certain tax crimes and certain other crimes are felonies and have NO victim...
5.) Does he support felons having the ability to carry firearms? Are there any circumstances where he beleives a felon should be able to reclaim this right? If NOT, what difference does he see between arming a non-violent person convicted of a felony and arming a non-violent person not convicted of a felony? - I think there should be a process to reclaim the right to carry. Factors I think that should be considered would include the type of crime (violent or non-violent), how long ago, your history since then etc. If you just got out of prison for a string of shotgun liquor store robberies where you blasted a clerk or two? Ummmm, no, that person rates a lifetime ban, in my opinion. I even think Mark_FTL should at least be allowed to be heard, given the specific circumstances and the time involved.
Finally, please extend my thanks to the officer. Thie invitation goes a LONG way to humanize the Keene Police. Even offering the conversation as a sign of equality is a far cry from what many police agencies around the world would tolerate, let alone invite. - You're welcome. I'm off Monday thru Wednesday...I'm sure I'll know what my agency thinks of all this by then. My bosses actually are pretty reasonable, regular folks.
These from Lauren, again the replies are my own opinions:
This sounds like fun. Jury's still out on that.
I wonder how they deal with the volume of laws that exist. - There are too many, and many of those are silly, in my opinion.
Do they read and remember them all? Lemme think on that one...helllllll noooooo.
I wonder how they feel about people they arrest. I feel fine about most people I arrest (which aren't that many recently, with me being the Shift Commander usually), because most of them knew they screwed up, and knew it was their fault they screwed up, I treat them with courtesy and respect and it's reciprocated. There are those who refuse to acknowledge they screwed up, blaming their "slut" girlfriend, their lawyer, the clerk at WalMart, their prescription meds or me for their troubles. I fell less good about them. And of course there's the guy who I arrested (for the third time) for beating the crappola out of his girlfriend. He worked up some quality phlegm for a few minutes and spit it right into my mouth...I feel a lot less good about him. Eventually (after arrest six I think for beating her) he went to Westmoreland for six (whole!) months. I was gonna send him a birthday card...
Have their friends or relatives ever disobeyed a law? Sure, my older brothers smoked weed, one or two may still do so. A couple of them have lead feet (they speed).
Would they arrest their mother? Depends upon what for...if SHE was doing the shotgun liquor store robberies, absolutely I'd do it. C'mon, MA!!!! If it were anything less than something like that I'd call another agency to handle it. Contrary to popular belief about our "wickedness" here in Keene, if Mom robbed the Hallmark store, it'd be hard to sweep that under the carpet, especially that there's three or four different agencies around here that would have the radio and / or phones recorded about it. Mother's Day is coming up...on her card I'm going to write "PS: Thanks for not robbing liqour stores down here...I'd hate to have to get in a gunfight with you."
Would they ever break a law? Honestly, I suppose I would. Not sure what exactly, but there'd be a list I'm sure. I routinely drive between 0 and 5 over the speed limit. I actively think about not driving as fast as I'd stop a citizen for, I try not to be a hypocrite, but I guess we're all that sometimes. Now the puppet show thing is intriguing...would one have to charge money to be a law breaker with that?
Have they ever broken a law? Of course. Probably everyone does, some people professionally!
Did they ever arrest themselves? Arrest as in "stop" , sure...I'll find myself driving too fast and slow down, for example. Arrest as in put the silver bracelets on myself? Tried it once, couldn't reach my radio mic to call it in. Had to get a drunk frat brother to let me loose.
Do they have to be the witness and the prosecution like the state police do? I haven't, but I think when court is very busy we sometimes have our guys do their own speeding tickets, little stuff like that. Legally that doesn't sound like a big deal, since the Defendant in cases like those gets to be...anyone??? The Defense. So, they're two-hatting as well. If you think there is a legal hitch to that, let me know and I'll throw that at the Prosecutor and get back to you.
Good questions, though I suspect the "arrest myself" one was one of those unwinnable ones?????
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 04:33 AM NHFT
Now the puppet show thing is intriguing...would one have to charge money to be a law breaker with that?
State law - yes, it must be for profit to require a license.
RSA 286:1
Many city ordinances - no, they are licensed, whether for profit or not.
Keene Code of Ordinances §46-641
Concord Code of Ordinances §15-3-1
Manchester Code of Ordinances §111.80
and others....
Damn, I'm getting good at this research stuff.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Doctor Pope Sir Ryan on May 04, 2008, 05:55 AM NHFT
Damn, I'm getting good at this research stuff.
You are. And once you've bored with the statutes and ordinances, remember there's a whole world of case law just waiting to be exposed to the daylight!
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 01:13 AM NHFT
I'm all for oversight, and except for when it seems they're trying to be overly intrusive and obnoxious (my opinion, folks!) your CW folks don't really bother my officers or me (at least after the first shock of "what the hell?" the first night!). Come on out and say hi, not just "Hi, we're with CopWatch and we're filming you, you goon, because we know you want to break that citizen's legs for having a tail light out." I paraphrase, of course.
That brings another question, what are your officers comfortable with us doing during a pullover? Is it acceptable to talk to the driver while you're processing whatever you need?
You also haven't addressed why the guys are allowed to pull over and switch on their lights just to get me to ride over. However, thinking they "punked" me is completely wrong. I wouldn't be out if I wasn't enjoying the night, and I don't mind pedaling a few feet whether it's a legitimate stop or not.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 01:24 AM NHFT
Quote from: Coconut on May 02, 2008, 08:00 PM NHFT
I'm honestly not really interested. I'm socially awkward enough as it is, and any conversation I have might just end up being a debate. I would feel "trapped" in conversation, being it unreasonable for me to ask to leave the situation in the middle of a ride-along. Perhaps someone can change my mind, but I don't feel like it would be a valuable or comfortable experience.
Hmmm...last time I had a conversation with you I thought it was pleasant. Over the phone, though.
I'm surprised you remember that, and I'm thankful I got my bag back. Is there a procedure for opening a case to try and catch people that perpetrate small theft? because I never heard anything after that day, so I assume they got away with it.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 01:13 AM NHFT
...apparently everyone thinks it's my natural lust to immediately take them behind Wal Mart and beat the crap out of them with my stick (OK, not everyone, to be fair). That's no more realistic than CW being able to provide the riders for each cop, 24 / 7 / 365.
...I think it would be nearly impossible for us to get away with the ole' "take him behind Sears and wail the tar out of 'im" thing. No one around here thinks it is worth their careers to try that.
...Come on out and say hi, not just "Hi, we're with CopWatch and we're filming you, you goon, because we know you want to break that citizen's legs for having a tail light out." I paraphrase, of course.
The thing that IS truly irritating is the constant drumbeat that if you guys aren't always right there, scrutinizing us on camera, that we're immediately going to do something horrible to a random citizen behind Wal Mart. Or, if there's only one of you you'd better watch out because you're gonna get beat / sprayed / shot. Give me a break.
I'm not satisfied with some of your answers. The one quoted above, for example, misrepresents what I think and what a number of people think. So you've essentially answered a question that wasn't asked, making it look like the people asking are the bad guys.
For example, Kat explicitly explained:
Quote from: Kat KanningI don't know of anything in particular the Keene police do that is corrupt or out of the norm. From all I've seen they ARE better than the other police around the state. When I say that they're not the good guys, it is the nature of their job, not the particular individuals I'm talking about. Every day they put people behind bars for victimless "crimes". Saying that they're just "doing their jobs" does not absolve them of the responsibility that they've used those guns to lock innocent people up. The Keene police are particularly bad about throwing people in jail for things like expired tags, driving with suspended license. I know a pregnant lady they tossed in jail for driving with a suspended license. She wasn't hurting anyone, yet there she was behind bars.
And David said:
Quote from: DavidI will volunteer to go, if no one else is interested.
I agree with Kat. It isn't corruption I really expect to see, even on the copwatch struff. It is the victims of arrest who have done nothing more serious than live their lives in an enjoyable manner, and are arrested for victimless crimes. I care about people and it saddens me to see them harmed for a 'cure' that is worse than the 'crime'.
Regardles whether cops "beating up innocents behind the Walmart" goes on, cops
do arrest people for victimless crimes. Cops
do pull people over for their plate lights being out, as you have admitted. Cops
do demand that people stop video recording cops, even when it is their right to do so and there is not only no victimless crime, but there is also no legal crime! By the way, I'm referring to cops here because I'm talking to you, a cop, and this thread is about a ride-along with a cop, and because cops enforce these horrible laws; it should be obvious that I also think that the legislators who enact these laws are to blame, as well as the judges to support them, etc.
However, you said "I think there are over a thousand members of this forum. Most of them do not live in Keene" and I
do agree with this, as it relates to me. I do not live in Keene (yet), and so despite my interest in your replies I will stop participating in this thread. I wrote this post only so it didn't look like your straw-man response to my question answered anything.
Thanks for participating in this thread, by the way.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 01:22 AM NHFT
And your photography kicks a$$. "Much talent, he has," Yoda would say.
And, thanks for your service.
Thanks for the compliments.
I admit many of the answers were "predictable."..and "classic"..and often the examples are exaggerated.
Kola
Firstly, thank you for answering the questions. I don't like all of your answers (and I'll get to those in a moment) but I want to thank you first for giving answers. Let me also disclaim this - I was in Keene for all of a day so anything I say about "the police" is in my experience in Detroit, other parts of Michigan, Kentucky, Maryland, Virginia, DC and the areas in between there.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxwell'For me, "traffic enforcement" means modifying driver behavior in a positive fashion, be it causing someone to stop driving like an a-hole, or encouraging someone to repair their car, which is falling apart. Sometimes in my judgment it takes a ticket.
Fair enough. You mentioned elsewhere that some behaviors you feel a need to act on BEFORE it leads to victims and while I understand (and even once agreed with) that logic, I consider it faulty now. I can wrap this next statement in bubble-wrap to make it softer and gentler in many ways but the short answer is that I'd rather be a victim of dangerous behavior than a victim of "for your own protection." I don't fear drunk drivers, wheelieing motorbikers or beer-bottle throwing men any more than I fear being struck by lightning. Can it happen, sure. Should I change to mitigate it? No. However, I can feel my blood pressure rise when I see a police cruiser or hear sirens.
I guess at it's core, I don't think ANYONE has a right to do "behavior modification" to anyone but themselves (and perhaps... PERHAPS a parent to a child - jury is still out on that). If nobody is hurt by it, there is no reason in my mind why the behavior should warrant "modification".
Quote from: 'Shane Maxwell'But the guy who hits my cruiser with a long-neck beer bottle and forces me to run after him through a couple back yards, when I find the baggy on him one would surmise a "stern talking-to" won't do much to modify his behavior from being an a-hole, he'll probably get charged because that legal smack is about all he'll understand.
I think you've epitomized it with this statement. Throwing a beer bottle at your cruiser was a destructive act. It's within your right (as a sovereign individual) to apprehend the perpetrator (or hire someone) to recover costs of the damage (perhaps it's as small as the need to wash your car, or have scratches fixed) done. The fact that he has marijuana on him is TOTALLY irrelevant to the damaging act and, in my mind, is NOTHING more than your excuse for enforcing someone elses (perhaps yours, perhaps "the people's") way of life on him. Being an asshole, as you put it, isn't a crime and shouldn't be treated like one.
Please don't take that as a "you suck". I'm quite convinced that you fully beleive you're doing good and preventing him from escalating and perhaps harming people next time (what if he's missed your car and hit the pedestrian behind it?). My concern is that you may be taking for granted what is "good" in the first place.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxwell'Without being all-knowing of every RSA, I'm sure there are some I'd decline pursue unless pressed to.
Not trying to nit-pick but I'm actually confused. You said in one of your other responses that "if told to confiscate guns" you'd not carry out that order. Yet here, you're clear that there are some laws you'd not carry out "unless pressed to". Let us assume for a moment that some seldom-used (but on the books) law "granted authority" to confiscate guns and your superior officer (or perhaps a direct executive order) ordered you to. As unreasonable as this sounds, it's actually happened twice in the last 5 years, during the Tornado "crisis" in Kansas and Katrina. It's not a far cry that a flood hitting Keene might have that order given by outsiders.
If you disagree with something, like confiscating guns, how does "being pressed" change the fact that you disagree with it? I suppose I should clarify here that when I say "disagree" I mean ETHICALLY. I couldn't bring myself to do something I ethically disagree with even "if pressed". Perhaps you actually DON'T ethically disagree with enforcement but you object on practical reasons alone? Frankly, disagreement for ethical OR practical reasons is fine in my book but perhaps establishing that for us these things ARE a matter of ethics and NOT "bad policy" might go a long way to finding mutual understanding.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxwell'I'll agree that most people tend to be uncomfortable around cops...I was in a convenience store on the way to work yesterday and there was a Swanzey cop grabbing a bite, and I'll admit I didn't even know him and I was a bit uncomfortable, I don't know why because I KNOW we're not all ready to club random citizens. But to leap from that to the phrase "police in general are despised" is off that deep end I spoke of earlier.
I can only speak of my personal experience. I was pulled over once for running a red light because I was distracted. It was about 11:30 pm in the sleepy town of Bardstown Kentucky (Less than half the population of Keene) with no other cars around. The officer that pulled me over was abrasive, pushy and scared the hell out of me. One of those "shine the light in your eyes so you can only see my shadow" kinda guys who needed to maintain this aura of mystery and awe. This guy literally flicked my license through my window so it hit me in the head (it's a little piece of plastic which isn't a big deal, but is infuriating). He then let me go without ticketing me. That was the best experience I've ever had with a law enforcement official and only because it didn't end up costing me money.
You admit yourself that you feel uncomfortable around police and you ARE one. Imagine how the rest of the world feels, without even that sense of professional reciprocity. Now, multiply that by the number of people who actually DO break the law regularly (i.e. smoke pot) but don't harm others. As a civilian, I've never ONCE heard someone say "Thank goodness for the police" (and I have been witness to the "good" things police do, like investigating after robberies.) but I've heard many people remark on how uncomfortable they feel when a police cruiser pulls behind them on the road, or at how angry they are that they have fines to pay to pay for having a broken headlight (despite the fact that they're driving in the day). In my experience to say that police in general are dispised is fully accurate. You have to understand that I've lived the entire range of lifestyles from upper-middle class to poor. I've lived in areas where police have been shot at for simply BEING police. That certainly isn't common, and the idea that someone deserves to be harmed disgusts me, but the fact that it happens is telling. Speaking personally, I fear the police more than anything else I encounter in a given day. I've spun out of control in a car doing 65 MPH, across three lanes of highway traffic before slamming into a concrete median and the most disturbing thing that night was dealing with the police - my wife was ticketed for "destruction of public property" because she hit and chipped the barrier. "Are you guys alright" was never asked.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxwell'Open carry trash pickup? Good for you. Now, as a courtesy perhaps you'd let us know because there will be citizens (there are those who fear the gun, even when it's sitting on the coffee table) who call us all in a tizzy and I'd like to be able to tell them "Don't worry about it...it's all good, and their cleaning your street up."
I understand the sentiment there but do you understand how odd that sounds to me? Do you expect people to call you and inform them that they're exercising their freedom or speech, that might upset people too. The entire idea behind a right is that you DON'T need to ask or even inform someone. "Officers, there are guys walking down my street carrying guns!" should be met with "Ma'am, are they firing them? Has anyone been harmed? No, okay, then there's no problem there" should be the response with or without prior notice. The idea of demonstrations of all kind is that they question the status quo - if people understand there are guns on the streets, in the hands of regular people, these kinds of things won't be shocking at all. It's the shattering of a belief that is disturbing to people and it's that beleif itself which open carry works to dispell. By informing the police first so that they can give a "oh, we know, they're OK" will send the message "Guys with guns are okay as long as the police know why they'e carrying" and that's the opposite of the message that's trying to be pushed. The idea is that ALL people are equal, soverign and responsible. All people (not just the police) should be able to protect themselves when and where that need arises and shouldn't need clearance or permission to do it.
As to the responce after a civilian discharges his weapon, I'll agree there. Cooperation with the police is probably the best idea but I have a caveat to that. There are cases here in Maryland (a restrictive state in terms of gun law) where the police arrested the man and confiscated the firearm. Here, the idea is that "any use of a gun is a crime, until proven otherwise or unless done by a cop". If you have video of a robber firing a gun first, your weapon will STILL be taken and run against open crime databases to prove it's not been used in other crimes as if firing a weapon is probable cause for such a seizure. Even if Keene police don't do this, the flow of people moving from areas that DO will make people reluctant to comply. Please don't take it personal when past histories of oppresive actions from law enforcement tarnish your reputation, counter it with examples of common sense rather than increasing hostility to those who are reluctant.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxwell'I think there should be a process to reclaim the right to carry. Factors I think that should be considered would include the type of crime (violent or non-violent), how long ago, your history since then etc. If you just got out of prison for a string of shotgun liquor store robberies where you blasted a clerk or two? Ummmm, no, that person rates a lifetime ban, in my opinion. I even think Mark_FTL should at least be allowed to be heard, given the specific circumstances and the time involved.
I notice you didn't say that Mark SHOULD be allowed to carry, only that he should be allowed to apply. Realistically, how would this work though? You say that the guy who shot and killed the liquor store clerk should be permanently banned but suggest that Mark should have the chance? If you hold the idea that people CAN change, how do you create exemptions? Why couldn't the liquor store killer change after a decade too? Perhaps becoming a father has instilled in him a deep respect for life...
Once again, I lean to the side of "I'd rather deal with the consequences" than deprive one person a right. You're used to New Hampshire's gun climate and even in the least restrictive state in the nation you recognize that people get freaked out by guns, how would you expect a sampling of people to fairly re-enstate someone's right to carry when they get freaked out over non-felons carrying? The same thing that makes me despise the idea of juries makes me weary of any "process" to reinstate gun ownership. How can you expect a group of fallable humans to arrive at an infallible decisions?
Furthermore, if you're willing to accept that there are some cases where Constiutional rights don't apply (I'm going to assume you're a Constitutionalist... I notice you reference federal and state Constitutions and thanked Puke for his service, so I'll assume you hold "American Virtues" in high esteem) what is the line on the others? Some states don't allow felons to vote or hold public office. Would you feel okay that some felons were denied their right to religion or free speech? What makes right to own a gun and right to choose your own god so different?
I'm not trying to put you on the defensive side. :) I believe that given the same set of information, everyone would come to the same decisions. In asking my questions I'm trying to grok your logic. Unlike Kola, I don't really see "winning over the police" as an unplausible goal because I beleive that just as "the people" don't think a certan way, neither do "the police".
Quote from: 'Mike in CA'However, you said "I think there are over a thousand members of this forum. Most of them do not live in Keene" and I do agree with this, as it relates to me. I do not live in Keene (yet), and so despite my interest in your replies I will stop participating in this thread.
Actually, Caleb said that, not Shane. This is a slightly relevant point because I think you took that as a subtle blow off. I for one, am working on moving to Keene so I think that this is totally relevant to me, even though I don't live there yet.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on May 04, 2008, 10:35 AM NHFT
Quote from: 'Mike in CA'However, you said "I think there are over a thousand members of this forum. Most of them do not live in Keene" and I do agree with this, as it relates to me. I do not live in Keene (yet), and so despite my interest in your replies I will stop participating in this thread.
Actually, Caleb said that, not Shane. This is a slightly relevant point because I think you took that as a subtle blow off. I for one, am working on moving to Keene so I think that this is totally relevant to me, even though I don't live there yet.
Oops, you're right. I still agree with the statement, though, as it applies to me. While I am attempting to move to NH, I do not know when it will happen and I do not know whether I'll live in Keene, so I will continue to read and learn how Shane of the Keene Police feels about freedom, but I don't think I want to participate.
But as long as I'm posting here to admit my quoting mistake, I'll take this opportunity to thank you for an awesome post, which I was about to do in a PM. You made great points and put the principles of freedom in clear view with real and realistic examples. Good work!
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 03, 2008, 10:06 AM NHFT
"Lauren Canario VOLUNTARILY enters a police car!"
And in other news, Hell froze over...
Shane, a very real concern that I had with your department was my perception that the college students were treated as second class citizens, that they were singled out for enforcement. Granted, I got this perception by talking with college students, so its only anecdotal, but it does seem to be the perception of many at the college that greater scrutiny is applied to them than to the citizens at large.
Excellent post Kevin Dean.
Shane Maxfield, I believe the large part of the frustration, and paranoia is due to the inherit part of your job. The police are the enforcement wing of gov't. Every bad law, every minor and major tyranny is enforced by the police. A ride along may reduce the paranoia, particularly as it relates to your police department, but it will not change the fact that your job requirements put you at odds with us.
Eminent domain, parisitical levels of taxation, thousands of victimless crime laws, all are enforced by law enforcement.
I realize you cannot change the laws, but please question them. Ignore them when you can. :)
I don't believe you are 'thugs', I just believe gov't to be a self-feeding cancer, and unfortunately you work for one of the many enforcement agencies.
QuoteSome of my colleagues think I'm nuts. Here goes.
Welcome, Shane. Don't mind some of the trolls. You can tell who they are by their karma, generally. +1 karma to you for coming here!
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 03, 2008, 11:52 PM NHFT
I think the war on drugs is a clear failure
:clap:
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 03, 2008, 11:52 PM NHFT
I think the war on drugs is a clear failure
Will you join LEAP (http://leap.cc)? You'd be the 2nd on-duty LEO in NH (maybe all of America) to do so.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 04:33 AM NHFT
These from Lauren, again the replies are my own opinions:
This sounds like fun. Jury's still out on that.
No really, I look forward to it. I understand that you would be defensive when coming into a new environment. And you probably didn't notice that you are being sarcastic and flippant. It's because you are scared. I know how that is.
The same reason police yell orders instead of listening to distressed people. Understandable, but unproductive. I'd bet in your cruiser you'd be more relaxed and open.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 04, 2008, 11:43 AM NHFT
QuoteSome of my colleagues think I'm nuts. Here goes.
Welcome, Shane. Don't mind some of the trolls. You can tell who they are by their karma, generally. +1 karma to you for coming here!
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 03, 2008, 11:52 PM NHFT
I think the war on drugs is a clear failure
:clap:
Absolutely, Ian. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :bow:
It is great to meet others in law enforcement who are not afraid to speak the truth about this.
Maybe you and Van Wickler can meet up with him if he's interested.
an excellent idea sir. I do believe I shall call Keene PD tonight on my midnight shift and attempt to lure the good Lieutenant out with a free lunch ;D
Coconut,
That brings another question, what are your officers comfortable with us doing during a pullover? Is it acceptable to talk to the driver while you're processing whatever you need? - Different officers have different comfort levels, so I can't presume to speak for them on that. However, as long as you're not going out of your way to directly interfere with what's going on you should be fine, and if you stay out of the road even better. We're responsible for people's safety during the stop, and if you're out in the road the officer will probably tell you to move away. You're also one more person he has to pay attention to, so that may make him nervous. I've already told them you guys are out there to observe, and if you do your stuff civilly you won't have a problem. I suspect the reason the drunk guys had issue with you the other night could be because there were three of you, all shooting from the same spot on the sidewalk, which made it appear you were just trying to be intimidating and obnoxious. Just my opinion, mind you. And yes, here in Keene you are safe coming out to shoot stuff alone, but I would caution you on your interactions with the KSC folk, as a lot of them, especially when drunk, look for reasons to hassle anyone. And if they do hassle you, please don't be afraid to ask for a hand from us. We work for you too.
You also haven't addressed why the guys are allowed to pull over and switch on their lights just to get me to ride over. However, thinking they "punked" me is completely wrong. I wouldn't be out if I wasn't enjoying the night, and I don't mind pedaling a few feet whether it's a legitimate stop or not. - That's not exactly the case nor was it our intention, I wish you would've asked me that night and I could have shown you what we were doing. Long story short, as you know scrap metal prices are skyrocketing, so some people have gotten the idea to steal anything made of metal and sell it to scrappers. It's usually copper (pipe and cable) that they take, lately it's steel. The day before your CW thing kicked off we got zapped for over $8000 in storm grates stolen (yes, "they" pry them right out of the street). Many of our grates have been partially paved over, so you can see when "they" are going for one because the blacktop on the edges is being pried and carved out. Obviously, you as an avid biker knows what would happen if you bike (or jog or drive) onto one of these stormwater pits that has had the grate stolen...anyway we had been checking the ones on Main St. and some side streets. I was the guy checking the one down near Wyman Way and, yes, when I saw you pedalling like mad to get down to me I hurried and finished my business and drove off. Later on, when it looked like you guys were just hanging out near the Colonial, I told my guys to wait until they were a ways North or South, or on a side street to make car stops, to make you work for it. And yes, that was me your friend overheard on foot talking about giving you a workout. At that point we thought you guys were trying to make a nuisance out of yourselves and insert yourselves into car stops and such. Sorry 'bout that, glad you enjoyed the night (except the end).
I'm surprised you remember that, and I'm thankful I got my bag back. Is there a procedure for opening a case to try and catch people that perpetrate small theft? because I never heard anything after that day, so I assume they got away with it. - I remember most folks I interact with. Flag me down if you see me driving around tonight, I'll let you read the report...
I fear the police, though I break no major laws. The few interactions I have had, in any context, were filled with anxiety. I feel completely powerless and horrible for some time after.
I've tried smiling and being as nice as possible. I've tried looking straight ahead and saying as little as possible. Either way I stammer my words and feel humiliated.
Do you have any practices you would recommend for me to do on my next encounter?
If I were on a car stop and the person filming me approached the vehicle I would ask them to back away and not have contact with the driver. Film me till your hearts content - but I would be apprehensive to have an unknown third party getting involved with my stop. I would advise CW members to steer clear of doing this.
I would even be happy to do an on-camera interview with the CW person after I clear the stop. 8) I would speak about the law the person violated, the action I took, etc.
I believe that CW can actually make our communities safer... because we have more people out there watching both us and people of the criminal element who would be stealing stuff.
The Lieutenant is not kidding about the metal thefts. In my jurisdiction we have had a TON of them. Usually it is junkies who need $ to buy drugs..... ::)
Quote from: Jacobus on May 04, 2008, 05:52 PM NHFT
I fear the police, though I break no major laws. The few interactions I have had, in any context, were filled with anxiety. I feel completely powerless and horrible for some time after.
I've tried smiling and being as nice as possible. I've tried looking straight ahead and saying as little as possible. Either way I stammer my words and feel humiliated.
Do you have any practices you would recommend for me to do on my next encounter?
I'm really sorry you feel that way...you near Keene? As for your next encounter, I'm not sure what you could do...the situation is almost doomed to be uptight, since the officer is probably somewhat rigid or stuffy, you're nervous, he can tell your nervous and is wondering why?? I, actually, would suggest that at the conclusion of whatever the next encounter is, you ask the officer if he has a minute or two to talk to you. Then, ask him/her. Hopefully they will take the time, and perhaps they'll relax a bit and you can see that they're human too. Try that.
Quote from: kola on May 03, 2008, 08:56 PM NHFT
do cops have to take urine or blood test to make sure they are not using drugs or drinking booze on the job?
if not, they should.
Kola
Some places require this I'm sure, Keene does not. There have been some alcohol issues here in the past, we dealt with it pretty decisively. Detecting drug use would be harder, and I personally wouldn't care if they piss-tested us periodically (did it a few times a year for 20yrs in the Marines)...however, the unions would squack like hell. Our background process is pretty thorough, so we seem to be sifting out bad risks before we hire them.
I am a firm believer that law enforcement officers should be subjected to random drug tests. I believe it should be a state mandate.
As an active member of a police union I have absolutely no objection to this. We should be held to a higher standard.
heres one I dislike.
The sobriety test (in the field).
It is practically impossible to pass.
Kola
Quote from: kola on May 04, 2008, 07:12 PM NHFT
heres one I dislike.
The sobriety test (in the field).
It is practically impossible to pass.
Kola
Actually, lots of people pass them. You should research some of the tests online and try them out in your driveway, they're actually not that difficult.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 06:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jacobus on May 04, 2008, 05:52 PM NHFT
I fear the police, though I break no major laws. The few interactions I have had, in any context, were filled with anxiety. I feel completely powerless and horrible for some time after.
I've tried smiling and being as nice as possible. I've tried looking straight ahead and saying as little as possible. Either way I stammer my words and feel humiliated.
Do you have any practices you would recommend for me to do on my next encounter?
I'm really sorry you feel that way...you near Keene? As for your next encounter, I'm not sure what you could do...the situation is almost doomed to be uptight, since the officer is probably somewhat rigid or stuffy, you're nervous, he can tell your nervous and is wondering why?? I, actually, would suggest that at the conclusion of whatever the next encounter is, you ask the officer if he has a minute or two to talk to you. Then, ask him/her. Hopefully they will take the time, and perhaps they'll relax a bit and you can see that they're human too. Try that.
I live in Massachusetts right now. I've had three encounters with NH police: 2 when I lived in West Lebanon (both for not having a safety inspection sticker) and 1 when on vacation in the Whites (victim of a speed trap). I'll be moving to the Mason / Greenville area most likely once (if?) my present condo sells.
Your advice actually sounds pretty good. I might try it if I can remain present enough during the next encounter.
I understand that to the police, encounters with folk are a daily experience and are routine. I ask here only that you reflect on the power these encounters can have on ordinary folk and the way your procedures (and in interactions with police from CT, MA, RI, and NH, they were all pretty much the same) are designed to put you in total control of the situation.
When I was young, I thought my dad was the most powerful man alive. I don't mean power as in control over others, but power as in always knowing what to do and handling himself with dignity. I'm sure many boys feel the same way, like their Dad just has superpowers of protection and knowing what to do.
That illusion was burst during an interaction with the police. It was not a remarkable interaction, but clearly here Dad did not have the control or ability to direct the situation. He was as powerless as I was.
In a few years I will be in the same position as my Dad was. I guess its inevitable that the Dad-as-superman illusion be burst, but I'd rather have it be when my son beats me at chess or something. Watching my Dad being humiliated in front of me at that time was like ... the closest analogy I can think of is stumbling upon pornography when you are too young.
Thanks for your time on this thread and in reading my posts.
I think that your approach to the officer makes a big difference to how he handles himself. One of my encounters with the keene police started to go poorly, and then I decided to change the whole dynamics and it went a lot different. I had just moved to keene and was pulled over, for what I can't remember but I was a little on edge because I didn't know what to expect, and I thought that the officer also seemed very on edge, it was probably both of us feeding off of that and mirroring each other's attitudes and amplifying it. He asked me to procure my registration, and when I reached into my glove compartment, he flashed his gigantic flashlight into my eyes. I decided it had to change.
So I raised my hands into the air so he could see them and simply spoke honestly to him. I said, "You are making me feel very nervous. I don't know what's going on here, but there are two of you and only one of me. I feel like I'm being set up here, or something. I'm just a guy trying to go home. It's dark, and you are flashing a very bright light in my eyes so that I can't even see you. You also have a loaded weapon and I do not, which makes for an extreme difference in the power dynamic here. Can you understand why I feel nervous?" I wasn't yelling, just speaking honestly. And it seemed to change his whole approach. He took the light out of my eyes, and kneeled down so that we were at eye level and apologized to me. Then he said that it's standard procedure for them to use their lights whenever anyone reaches for something, because they do not know whether any person has a firearm. I told him that I could understand his apprehension, but that I do not have a firearm, that I'm not a violent person, and that I was only "reaching" because he had specifically asked me to procure my registration, which is in my glovebox. He then let me get the registration without the bright light, and told me, "alright, I'm going to run this real quick and if everything checks out I'll get you outta here as quick as I can." He came back a minute or two later and handed me my license and registration without even a warning.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on Today at 01:28 AM
...apparently everyone thinks it's my natural lust to immediately take them behind Wal Mart and beat the crap out of them with my stick (OK, not everyone, to be fair). That's no more realistic than CW being able to provide the riders for each cop, 24 / 7 / 365.
...I think it would be nearly impossible for us to get away with the ole' "take him behind Sears and wail the tar out of 'im" thing. No one around here thinks it is worth their careers to try that.
...Come on out and say hi, not just "Hi, we're with CopWatch and we're filming you, you goon, because we know you want to break that citizen's legs for having a tail light out." I paraphrase, of course.
The thing that IS truly irritating is the constant drumbeat that if you guys aren't always right there, scrutinizing us on camera, that we're immediately going to do something horrible to a random citizen behind Wal Mart. Or, if there's only one of you you'd better watch out because you're gonna get beat / sprayed / shot. Give me a break.
I'm not satisfied with some of your answers. The one quoted above, for example, misrepresents what I think and what a number of people think. So you've essentially answered a question that wasn't asked, making it look like the people asking are the bad guys.
Mike, if that's not what you think, then great, however I'm just summing up the sentiment of some posters on this board, throwing out "bombs" that get a pass most of the time from the rest of this community. For example, just taking a minute to browse around finds:
"at the very least it will cut down on Police brutality for the lucky drivers to be pulled over when Copwatch is around!"
"I don't know what will happen if I whip out my camera while they're trying to talk to me."
"Treat them like the wild deadly animals that they are. You do not want to get them riled up. Be calming and even use certain words as you speak to them; " it is ok officer, please take it easy, I only want your name a badge number, sir" or "I do not mean you any harm Officer, what was your name?.. i only want to know the specific law regarding using the electrical outlet". and " I am non-violent, sir".
When copwatching you are putting yourself in a very dangerous situation. You need to know how to handle yourself as you could easily get your ass kicked and even killed. If at all possible never copwatch alone."
"On the other hand, you say treat them for what they are, and if I can get out of the area of armed thugs without getting hurt, even if it involves nodding, agreeing, and apologizing, I tend to do it, but feel like a pussy after."
and of course:
"Remember, cops lie. Cops believe they are above the laws and they really are. They will do as they please as long as they do not have to be accountable and are not being filmed or audioed.
Especially when you are alone they will do whatever they want with you and will have their partner backing them. So your lone story against 2 goons is useless. They may handcuff you and take you somewhere and beat the living shit out of you. I am not kidding and I experienced this some 20 years ago. I told 2 cops that they were corrupt (which they were) and that was the way they handled me. Their report stated I got was injured after stumbling inot the jailhouse."
"Your job should be focused on documenting notes in detail and getting good observation.. and make sure you are at a comfortable distance away from the nazis police. Your only conversation with a oinker cop is to ask them their names and serial numbers and tell them "I have a LAWFUL right to observe". "
No, I don't think everyone asking questions are "bad guys." In fact, after I initially posted, I would say everyone has at least been courteous. But just browse around this board and you'll find all sorts of blanket statements and outright bombs, with few rebuttals. Perhaps you should hold your peers to the same "blanket statement" standards you're sticking on me?
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 07:42 PM NHFT
No, I don't think everyone asking questions are "bad guys." In fact, after I initially posted, I would say everyone has at least been courteous. But just browse around this board and you'll find all sorts of blanket statements and outright bombs, with few rebuttals. Perhaps you should hold your peers to the same "blanket statement" standards you're sticking on me?
I apologize if this isn't done. Believe it or not, there have been meetings held where certain people made the point that you are making, that we need to "shout down" our own, although it was in reference to anyone making violent threats, because that's obviously a more dangerous situation than name-calling.
I'm not trying to make an excuse, but the bullshit factor on this forum gets pretty high, and if we all went calling everyone on all their bullshit, that's all that would get done.
Quote from: Caleb on May 04, 2008, 07:40 PM NHFT
I think that your approach to the officer makes a big difference to how he handles himself. One of my encounters with the keene police started to go poorly, and then I decided to change the whole dynamics and it went a lot different. I had just moved to keene and was pulled over, for what I can't remember but I was a little on edge because I didn't know what to expect, and I thought that the officer also seemed very on edge, it was probably both of us feeding off of that and mirroring each other's attitudes and amplifying it. He asked me to procure my registration, and when I reached into my glove compartment, he flashed his gigantic flashlight into my eyes. I decided it had to change.
So I raised my hands into the air so he could see them and simply spoke honestly to him. I said, "You are making me feel very nervous. I don't know what's going on here, but there are two of you and only one of me. I feel like I'm being set up here, or something. I'm just a guy trying to go home. It's dark, and you are flashing a very bright light in my eyes so that I can't even see you. You also have a loaded weapon and I do not, which makes for an extreme difference in the power dynamic here. Can you understand why I feel nervous?" I wasn't yelling, just speaking honestly. And it seemed to change his whole approach. He took the light out of my eyes, and kneeled down so that we were at eye level and apologized to me. Then he said that it's standard procedure for them to use their lights whenever anyone reaches for something, because they do not know whether any person has a firearm. I told him that I could understand his apprehension, but that I do not have a firearm, that I'm not a violent person, and that I was only "reaching" because he had specifically asked me to procure my registration, which is in my glovebox. He then let me get the registration without the bright light, and told me, "alright, I'm going to run this real quick and if everything checks out I'll get you outta here as quick as I can." He came back a minute or two later and handed me my license and registration without even a warning.
This is sage advice. I suspect we're all (humans) conditioned to be stand-offish and tense, as far as interaction between citizens and police / military. It doesn't have to be that way. In fact, I'm trying to get my guys out of the cruisers and walking / biking around where they can interact and have conversations with people, about everyday stuff and local issues etc. People need to know they can come up to us and talk, or ask for directions, or whatever. Staffing is tough right now, so it's hard sometimes...
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 08:00 PM NHFT
In fact, I'm trying to get my guys out of the cruisers and walking / biking around where they can interact and have conversations with people, about everyday stuff and local issues etc. People need to know they can come up to us and talk, or ask for directions, or whatever. Staffing is tough right now, so it's hard sometimes...
If they do end up doing that, attempting to make small talk with people, make sure they expect to find people that would rather not be talking. We don't want to be rude, but we are used to officers only talking to someone when they are looking for a reason to arrest. My worst experiences have been with Fitchburg police and other agencies south and east of here along 101. They treat me as a guilty person until I convince them I'm innocent, and they get pissed when I don't want to give in to their interrogation. ie. "What's in your Altoid tin?" "What were you doing in Lowell?"
There may be an abundance of "broad brush" statements on this forum, and I think we all understand that they are too overarching, but they don't come from nowhere.
To all, it's "Maxfield" , not "Maxwell". No biggie, but it's my real name. Also, what are the "applaud" and "smite" links on the left?
To Kevin:
Fair enough. You mentioned elsewhere that some behaviors you feel a need to act on BEFORE it leads to victims and while I understand (and even once agreed with) that logic, I consider it faulty now. I can wrap this next statement in bubble-wrap to make it softer and gentler in many ways but the short answer is that I'd rather be a victim of dangerous behavior than a victim of "for your own protection." I don't fear drunk drivers, wheelieing motorbikers or beer-bottle throwing men any more than I fear being struck by lightning. Can it happen, sure. Should I change to mitigate it? No. However, I can feel my blood pressure rise when I see a police cruiser or hear sirens.
I'm gonna have to stand by my prevention before victim stance. If there was a lightning-damaged tree leaning over your house, which may or may not end up crashing through your roof, you perhaps would deal with it rather than wait and see. Or, if some guy at the next PorcFest brings his compound bow and starts firing arrows through the crowd, not hitting anyone, but coming pretty darn close, I suspect someone there would act before there was a victim. By my dealing with the reckless motorcyclist, how would you become a victim of my actions? I'm not seeing how I'm victimizing you by dealing with the reckless motorcyclist.
Regarding the gun confiscation thing, I would not do so as an LEO. I see no scenario, flood or otherwise, where I would go house to house searching for and grabbing folks firearms.
I'm sorry that your experiences with the police have been negative. I still don't think we're universally despised.
Regarding the open-carry trash pickup paragraph, I said that because on occasion we HAVE been notified of events like this. If they've already let us know in the past, then why not again? Hey, I don't care if they don't, and I have queried people as you've suggested. I guess it's just that you're not the one who has to handle the deluge of phone calls from ignorant people panicked because they see a fellow with a Glock on his hip. Soooo, basically I agree with you. Good point.
I also agree with your point on allowing the liquor store shotgunner the same chance as Mark to re-apply for the right to carry. Yes, I know that's not what you said, exactly, I think you want them to both be able to possess guns regardless of anything, equally. I have to state that there are career violent criminals out there, the kind who shoot pregnant bank tellers killing their babies, who probably shouldn't be allowed to carry.
You make well thought-out points.
Quote from: Coconut on May 04, 2008, 08:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 08:00 PM NHFT
In fact, I'm trying to get my guys out of the cruisers and walking / biking around where they can interact and have conversations with people, about everyday stuff and local issues etc. People need to know they can come up to us and talk, or ask for directions, or whatever. Staffing is tough right now, so it's hard sometimes...
If they do end up doing that, attempting to make small talk with people, make sure they expect to find people that would rather not be talking. We don't want to be rude, but we are used to officers only talking to someone when they are looking for a reason to arrest. My worst experiences have been with Fitchburg police and other agencies south and east of here along 101. They treat me as a guilty person until I convince them I'm innocent, and they get pissed when I don't want to give in to their interrogation. ie. "What's in your Altoid tin?" "What were you doing in Lowell?"
There may be an abundance of "broad brush" statements on this forum, and I think we all understand that they are too overarching, but they don't come from nowhere.
Ok, fair enough...that actually explains much. And again, I know there is some logical basis or reason or experience behind every comment on this board.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 09:06 PM NHFT
Also, what are the "applaud" and "smite" links on the left?
Those affect Karma. If you click applaud on someone, their karma goes up one. Smite takes it down one. Just a peer rating system that helps determine at a glance which posters have a solid track record. You can only repeat an action on the same person once per hour.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 09:10 PM NHFT
Ok, fair enough...that actually explains much.
Care to share what exactly I explained? :) I could guess but I'd rather not assume
for the "boys."
Are you calling me a liar? Google police brutality, police corruption and police violence.
This is just one video of thousands where cops are rabid. I am sure you are aware there are entire websites dedicated to only covering these kinds of things.
It is interesting that out of all those people who the cops picked out of the crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skhKBHSIh98
Quote from: kola on May 04, 2008, 10:18 PM NHFT
for the "boys."
Are you calling me a liar? Google police brutality, police corruption and police violence.
This is just one video of thousands where cops are rabid. I am sure you are aware there are entire websites dedicated to only covering these kinds of things.
It is interesting that out of all those people who the cops picked out of the crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skhKBHSIh98
No one's calling you a liar, I'm sure you were beat up by the cops 20 years ago. What I'm saying is even though you're bitten by a beagle 20 years ago doesn't mean that every beagle you see today is a bloodthirsty killer.
And there's no doubt there are bazillions of videos of cops abusing people...I've seen most of them and yes, I'm pretty disgusted too. But I know most cops don't do that. Lots of guys I've arrested in my career for beating the heck out of their women were wearing tanker t-shirts, but I'm not making the assumption that you do too, just because you're wearing one. That would be absurd.
QuoteNo one's calling you a liar, I'm sure you were beat up by the cops 20 years ago.
Yeah your sure huh? You know my type huh? Yeah you know it all huh? You da man.
See this is the stuff that irks me...that rightous attitude bullshit and above the law arrogance.
Keep smoozing with the others.
You proved to me you aint no different then the rest of the scum.
Kola
ok, once again I will repeat it. I have met many of the guys on the KPD, and especially have had several conversations with Shane, one conversation which lasted for well over an hour. I do not believe that he genuinely wants to hurt anyone. He seems especially concerned with protecting citizens from people who might harm them. I disagree with the idea that evil should be resisted with violence, but from what I have seen of Shane, I find it hard to believe that he takes any perverse delight in hurting people. He also carries a copy of the Constitution (maybe it's only the bill of rights, but I think it is the whole constitution) in his pocket. I have never encountered him when he was not carrying this in his shirt pocket, even when he wasn't expecting us. I have no reason to believe that he isn't genuine in his commitment to protect people and to show respect for the law. I have never seen any indication that he considers himself "above the law." Once again, I do not like the law, nor do I like the Constitution, but accusations that he is a "bad cop", are not fair. I do not believe in enforcing laws, but let's please try to frame our discussion in ways that do not attack participants or slander them as people.
Quote from: kola on May 04, 2008, 11:32 PM NHFT
QuoteNo one's calling you a liar, I'm sure you were beat up by the cops 20 years ago.
Yeah your sure huh? You know my type huh? Yeah you know it all huh? You da man.
See this is the stuff that irks me...that rightous attitude bullshit and above the law arrogance.
Keep smoozing with the others.
You proved to me you aint no different then the rest of the scum.
Kola
Kola,
I do not know you, but your reactions and name calling in a perfectly civil conversation simply shows how unreasonable and judgemental you are.
You did the same to me when I gave you an honest and respectful answer. It seems as if unless you hear the exact words you want in a response that the person responding to you is automatically "scum." That is very inept.
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 12:05 AM NHFT
Kola,
I do not know you, but your reactions and name calling in a perfectly civil conversation simply shows how unreasonable and judgemental you are.
You did the same to me when I gave you an honest and respectful answer. It seems as if unless you hear the exact words you want in a response that the person responding to you is automatically "scum." That is very inept.
Look at any of his posts anywhere: more of the same.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Doctor Pope Sir Ryan on May 05, 2008, 12:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 12:05 AM NHFT
Kola,
I do not know you, but your reactions and name calling in a perfectly civil conversation simply shows how unreasonable and judgemental you are.
You did the same to me when I gave you an honest and respectful answer. It seems as if unless you hear the exact words you want in a response that the person responding to you is automatically "scum." That is very inept.
Look at any of his posts anywhere: more of the same.
I simply cannot take him seriously as he is acting childish.
I believe the Lieutenant is serving the community of Keene well by being available on this forum to answer questions community members have. I highly doubt you will find this willingness of interaction on his part in many other agencies.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxfield'To all, it's "Maxfield" , not "Maxwell". No biggie, but it's my real name.
Kevin Dean is my real name. My apologies, I read it at a glance and typed what my brain soaked up. :P
Quote from: 'Shane Maxfield'I'm gonna have to stand by my prevention before victim stance. If there was a lightning-damaged tree leaning over your house, which may or may not end up crashing through your roof, you perhaps would deal with it rather than wait and see. Or, if some guy at the next PorcFest brings his compound bow and starts firing arrows through the crowd, not hitting anyone, but coming pretty darn close, I suspect someone there would act before there was a victim.
You're right here, if someone was being stupid there WOULD be intervention. I don't mean to give the impression that people should do NOTHING. However, to me there is a distinction when dealing with a police officer for one simple fact. Weither or not you would use force in any given situation is irrelevant - as a law enforcement officer you have a socially held monopoly on the use of force. Intervention as I meant was intervening with the use of force. I'm absolutely certain that you wouldn't use force unless you felt it was needed to protect yourself or another person but as a mental exercise, how many people would stop for your traffic enforcement if you didn't have the ability to chase the suspect down, make an arrest and use violence IF he didn't comply with the arrest? It is that fact that I think is the cause for discomfort. My issue is more with that monoply on force rather than what is done with it. As friendly as you may be, as polite as your warnings may be, there's still the implied threat of force (such as being sent to jail) when you turn those sirens on.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxfield'By my dealing with the reckless motorcyclist, how would you become a victim of my actions?
Directly... I'm not. However, doing so creates a precedent. It says "There are behaviors I will attempt to alter that have no victim". The behavior that falls into that category is left so vague that it is possible it's interpretation falls on me. Enforcement of drug laws don't affect me either since the only drug I do is alchohol... But who's to say that drug enforcement doesn't at some point evolve into alchohol enforcement? Tobacco is still technically legal, but you can now be fined in MANY places for it's use indoors; this is the slippery slope effect that I say I'd rather be victimized than have. I would rather have people who MIGHT hurt me running free than have someone who might NOT be deprived of their freedom in some shape or form.
I suppose the opposite question could apply here too... What's the harm in NOT enforcing the law? It's not you will be victimized by the cyclist. The similarity is in the uncertainty. You see the likelyhood that he MIGHT injure someone and in this preemptive action system I see loads of potential for abuse. In my opinion, national drunk driving laws are VERY much on the level of abuse today. While I think drunk driving is disgusting (like you I once got drunk and drove... I had nightmares about it for a week!), the "he might be drunk" line-pushing has gotten ridiculous. Speed limits themselves are there. Ask yourself... If the goal is really to provide safety, why do police use speed traps? If you want traffic to move slowly and orderly, put your cruiser on the street. VERY few people feel comfortable flying past a visable police car. When there are speed traps, however, the idea is the "catch someone doing something wrong". I'm a little tired, I hope that distinction is coming through.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxfield'I have to state that there are career violent criminals out there, the kind who shoot pregnant bank tellers killing their babies, who probably shouldn't be allowed to carry.
I don't disagree with you on that last part - there ARE scumbags who wish to do nothing but destroy human life. Nobody is saying this isn't the case. I'm simply saying that every human being is limited to their own brains so it is therefore impossible to ensure that every felon who will NOT harm someone can reclaim that right.
Quote from: 'Shane Maxfield'You make well thought-out points.
Thank you. :)
Quote from: Coconut on May 04, 2008, 09:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 09:06 PM NHFT
Also, what are the "applaud" and "smite" links on the left?
Those affect Karma. If you click applaud on someone, their karma goes up one. Smite takes it down one. Just a peer rating system that helps determine at a glance which posters have a solid track record. You can only repeat an action on the same person once per hour.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 09:10 PM NHFT
Ok, fair enough...that actually explains much.
Care to share what exactly I explained? :) I could guess but I'd rather not assume
Your guess is probably right, remind me if you see me, I'll tell you in person...and it's nothing bad on you!
My name is Mike I go by the nick MGMAN in the cop watch website, this is my first post on this board. I do not dislike Cops; I also do not refer to Cops as pigs or swine. I also do not group all Cops into 1 group and say that ALL are bad. HOWEVER I see Cops who abuse their First Responder status in their daily patrols and see the negative attitude many Cops have for the general public. I have seen peoples faces busted from Cop beatings and I have seen examples of stuff like what happened in NYC when those 3 Cops KILLED that man and got by with it because of a bad Judge. I get tired of reading and hearing Cops try to sweep this crap under the rug by saying it's just a small percentage of Cops that do it. If you wear a badge and you look the other way when another Cop violates someone's rights or harms them, and you DO NOT do anything about it as most do, you have violated your oath and have in my opinion committed a crime. Till Cops do something about that thin blue line the public are at risk, its that simple. So as I have said many many times you are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem, there is NO middle ground.
I posted this in the Copwatch website a while back, I think its fitting here too.
I am not real good at explaining my meaning sometimes and I fear this post will be misunderstood, but I think if I can get my point across maybe my feelings about Cops can be better understood.
Ethics
1plural but sing or plural in constr : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction <an elaborate ethics><Christian ethics> bplural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c: a guiding philosophy d: a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
3plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>
Morality
1 a: a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b: a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
2 a: a doctrine or system of moral conduct bplural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
3: conformity to ideals of right human conduct
4: moral conduct : virtue
I posted these definitions because they have meaning in this debate. I saw an episode of NCIS a while back and a question was asked what is the difference between a ethical person and a moral person. The Answer was something like this. an Ethical man knows its wrong to cheat on his wife but does it anyway, and a moral man will NOT cheat on his wife.
I thought about this difference as it applies to most Cops. I have pondered this a lot over the last few days. I feel that a majority of Cops are ethical people, but remember what I said before this just means they know they are wrong when they violate someones rights or stand by when another officer does it. Because the general public can't tell the difference between ethical and moral they give Cops a pass, but fail to understand Cops on average ARE NOT MORAL.
Does a Cop who is beating someone bloody think they are right in doing so, or wrong? I think most Cops know this behaver is wrong, but because of the culture of Law Enforcement they just don't care, and because a Cop knows the difference said cop will begin to cover up this behaver, and start hiding behind statements like "well something has to be done to remove scum like this from our society". Cops hide in the ethics of Law Enforcement knowing full well the public will support them.
A moral Cop will not do this, and will not stand by and let it happen.
So I have a question for all you Cops that visit this forum.
Are you an ethical Cop or a Moral Cop?
I would also like to add something to my previous post. Cops are the only people that can wreck your life, using the color of law. I know a man that married a Cops Ex, and from the time this Cop discovered their relationship till the day that couple moved out of the area this Cop harassed them. Several Speeding tickets were issued non deserved, etc etc. I know for a fact this Cop beat her while they were married because I saw the black eyes and the bruises. The other Cops in the Dept knew this was going on and NOT A ONE did anything to stop it! After their divorce this Cop would stalk her, still nothing was done! So please don't give me that crap that there are a lot of good Cops because THERE IS NOT. Cops can do things to you a citizen under color of the law that NOBODY else can do, the Courts and the upper management of the Dept's WILL NOT do anything till it becomes a public relations problem, then they will act and then try to reassure the public its just a tiny percentage that does it. NO its not a tiny percentage that does it, because if you are a Cop and let this go on you are PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!!
Ian, sounds like an excellent opportunity for both parties to come to a greater understanding. Do you think he would let me ride along sometime during porcfest? I'm not sure there would be much going on during a week night, but I think the conversation would be excellent. Then I might be able to do the same with one of the departments in DFW, to contrast the differences.
Quote from: SamIam on May 05, 2008, 01:58 PM NHFT
Ian, sounds like an excellent opportunity for both parties to come to a greater understanding. Do you think he would let me ride along sometime during porcfest? I'm not sure there would be much going on during a week night, but I think the conversation would be excellent. Then I might be able to do the same with one of the departments in DFW, to contrast the differences.
In Dallas and the northern burbs, you tend to need to be politically connected. Contact the PDs in some of the southern burbs (Cedar Hill, Grand Prairie, Duncanville, etc.), they tend to be more amiable guys overall.
Something I would like folks here to think about. What is your goal. What do you hope to achieve.
My answer to my own question would be this; I want to see people not get hurt. Watching the police was initially to try to deter misconduct. But moreso, I would like the legal hurting to stop. The drug war in particular, but other forms as well, such as revenue so called 'safety' laws etc. I think one of the ways to achieve that is to get the police to choose not to enforce those laws. Maybe more effective, is to encourage 'ineffectiveness' in their daily routines. (safer for the individuals officers job security as well). Much like a jury nulification, an officer that will not enforce a victimless law (I consider threatening someone to be an act of creating a victim, and would not oppose enforcement in this scenario), has essentually nullified the law.
For that to happen, we need to win the minds, of those involved, along with refusals to comply with fines, bail outs, and other forms of civil disobediance.
I realize there is great hostility to the police, among many of the forum members, but please treat them as individuals, and keep focused on long term success. Hostility when warrented is okay, but is not useful two when trying to encourage noncompliance.
I have had two Keene police officers tell me they want to keep people safe, I agree with that overall focus. Where we disagree is what is neccessary to do that, that is where I will focus my energy on.
I am not quite sure why anybody would want to do a ride a long with a Cop, but that's just me I guess. I think my major question would be what do you think you will accomplish? A better understanding of the profession? I have a suggestion for you take a ride with the wife beater cop I wrote about in my last post, I am sure if you ride long enough you might even start thinking hitting your spouse is something great to do. Someone very wise told me a long time ago that the best lie is a lie with enough truth in it to make it palatable, be careful you might be surprised just how easy it is to start thinking most of the crap Cops do is OK and justified. I also think if you want to ride a long watch Cops or view the thousands of videos posted online, as for me I have better things to do with my time
I believe that many of you would be very enlightened to see the level of professionalism that New Hampshire law enforcement generally possesses. Our state has one of the most strict regulatory boards when it comes to our ability to serve in the capacity as a law enforcement officer. The agency is called Police Standards and Training Council and in addition to individual officers answering to their respective employing governmental units we also answer to the Council. I heard not long ago that New Hampshire was a leading state for revoking police certifications for unprofessional conduct. I credit the Council for making New Hampshire law enforcement some of the most professional in the country.
And, as the Lieutenant stated, the background investigation process is quite intense.
Short story long: I believe you all would be very impressed with the professionalism found in our states policing. I encourage you all to see it first hand.
http://www.pstc.nh.gov/
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 02:57 PM NHFT
I believe that many of you would be very enlightened to see the level of professionalism that New Hampshire law enforcement generally possesses. Our state has one of the most strict regulatory boards when it comes to our ability to serve in the capacity as a law enforcement officer. The agency is called Police Standards and Training Council and in addition to individual officers answering to their respective employing governmental units we also answer to the Council. I heard not long ago that New Hampshire was a leading state for revoking police certifications for unprofessional conduct. I credit the Council for making New Hampshire law enforcement some of the most professional in the country.
And, as the Lieutenant stated, the background investigation process is quite intense.
Short story long: I believe you all would be very impressed with the professionalism found in our states policing. I encourage you all to see it first hand.
I know of at least 10 states and many city Dept's that make that same claim, and these states and cities have case after case of DOCUMENTED abuse of the public at the hands of police. If your state does not have a case it just means either its kept quiet or its just has not happened yet.
Shane - I just caught up with all the posts. I'm coming up to NH June 8th-15th. Thank you for coming on here and sharing your views both personal and professional. I would love to ride along, bring my camera gear, and continue this discussion. Would Tuesday the 10th or Wednesday the 11th work?
A couple of points on your comments:
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 01:47 AM NHFT
Quote from: jjschless on May 02, 2008, 08:31 PM NHFT
If no one was hurt and no property damaged, did a crime actually occur?
Let's say a young man on a rocket-bike routinely does wheelies down your street at a high rate of speed. . . . Now you've got two dead five-year-olds because there was nothing to deter the driver until an actual crash. That's a shitty consolation prize for the grieving parents. Someone should have called the cops on him soon after reason failed.
I agree riding a wheelie at 50mph on a Saturday afternoon down my street when kids are out playing is a bad idea. However I think the issue your addressing is one of public ownership of the roads. Government by design is not motivated to care in the same way a private property owner. How many times do you think this guy would be able to ride wheelies across the parking lot at Wal-Mart? They would do whatever it take to ensure the safety of their customers and surrounding community, because they want to keep making money. The problem would solve it's self.
The other problem with government, is one size MUST fit all. So while driving down the road at 80mph in rush hour traffic is unsafe, doing so at 3:50am on Tuesday, on a flat straight 3mi stretch of 4-lane highway that is completely deserted, is much safer. Again, because government doesn't have any incentive to innovate, we still have speed limit sights that stay the same regardless of the time of day (ok they somewhat have this one), traffic conditions, weather, my vechicle''s capabilities, etc. In the hands of private individuals seeking a profit and competing with other forms of transportation the roads would likely look very different.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 03:59 AM NHFT
Regarding Kevin Dean's questions, and again these are my opinions:
4.) How does he feel about armed citizens? Given that police enforce victimless crimes AND the populace is entitled to be armed, what does he think PERSONALLY is the best way to keep law enforcement safe - ending the drug war or disarming the citizenry?[/i] - Personally, I'm all for armed citizens, I'm aware of a couple incidents where they've been armed and held their own until we got there. All I want is for them to use their heads when we DO get there (because we ARE coming) and instead of waving the pistol around shouting about their 2nd Amendment rights, just do what we tell you until we sort it all out. In both cases I'm thinking of, the citizens were in the right, did basically what we told them to do when we got there, and walked away with happy endings, bad guys arrested and them free to fieldstrip and clean their pistols to their hearts content (and the one guy free to reload the two rounds he had fired). I'm all for the 2nd Amendment. Open carry trash pickup? Good for you. Now, as a courtesy perhaps you'd let us know because there will be citizens (there are those who fear the gun, even when it's sitting on the coffee table) who call us all in a tizzy and I'd like to be able to tell them "Don't worry about it...it's all good, and their cleaning your street up." Last year (or the year before) there was a fellow mowing his lawn in a heavily residential area packing a nice 1911. That was cool.
This was answered, but police are trained to take control of the situation to ensure their safety. In my experience, this approach often goes too far, and police over respond with an undue use of force, attitude, etc. When police are not forced into their current role, much of this would be unnecessary.
Thanks for taking part in the discussion, you can let me know about the ride along here or via private message, and if it's a go, I'll give you a call to work out the details.
Samiam
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 02:57 PM NHFT
I believe that many of you would be very enlightened to see the level of professionalism that New Hampshire law enforcement generally possesses. Our state has one of the most strict regulatory boards when it comes to our ability to serve in the capacity as a law enforcement officer. . ..
Highline - I think returning the title of peace officer would be another step in the right direction. The titles, "Law Enforcement Officer" and "Peace Officer" have a completely different context and set and spell out very different roles in society.
Quote from: SamIam on May 05, 2008, 03:23 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 02:57 PM NHFT
I believe that many of you would be very enlightened to see the level of professionalism that New Hampshire law enforcement generally possesses. Our state has one of the most strict regulatory boards when it comes to our ability to serve in the capacity as a law enforcement officer. . ..
Highline - I think returning the title of peace officer would be another step in the right direction. The titles, "Law Enforcement Officer" and "Peace Officer" have a completely different context and set and spell out very different roles in society.
I completely agree Sam. Interestingly, the New Hampshire RSA'S use the term "peace officer" mixed with "law enforcement officer" in various sections of law. I am sure that for those who engage in political discourse, which I respect is not the purpose of this forum, would have an easy time pushing to change the term used in our laws.
QuoteSo I have a question for all you Cops that visit this forum.
Are you an ethical Cop or a Moral Cop?
you missed this question highline.
Kola
Quote from: 'MGMAN'Problem is if you see a brother or sister officer do it, ( or for that matter anything that violates their oaths) most Cops will circle the wagons and start covering up.
Let me point out that I feel the exact opposite. I don't think people, cops or otherwise, routinely cover up behavior they think is unethical. What incentive does highfield (as an example) have to cover up Shane's (another example) misconduct?
No, what I see as "the problem" is that too few people (though in this discussion, I'll focus on LEO) see "enforcement of law" as "force". Anybody who's actually have a conversation about taxes with a regular person who would understand this grave disconnect.
Q: "Are taxes theft?"
A: "No! Of course not."
Q: "Why do you pay taxes?"
A. "You have to pay taxes."
Q: "Why do you have to pay taxes? What if you don't?"
A: "You go to jail if you don't."
Q: "And what if you resist going to jail?"
A: "Oh, you don't wanna do that! They'll tackle you and drag you off to jail anyway."
Do I think that the law enforcement is "the problem"... No. In many ways I see law enforcement officers as victims themselves of the brainwashing of government. The idea that police are needed to "keep order" is itself a symptom of that. That LEO's don't see a traffic stop of a speeder as "threat of force" is what I consider to be the problem. It is something that I think can be corrected over time (otherwise things like the FSP can't succeed) by respectful discourse and simply living free. On the other side of that, just because you're a victim too doesn't mean that perpetuating the system makes it's impact any less real.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on May 05, 2008, 04:56 PM NHFT
Quote from: 'MGMAN'Problem is if you see a brother or sister officer do it, ( or for that matter anything that violates their oaths) most Cops will circle the wagons and start covering up.
Let me point out that I feel the exact opposite. I don't think people, cops or otherwise, routinely cover up behavior they think is unethical. What incentive does highfield (as an example) have to cover up Shane's (another example) misconduct?
No, what I see as "the problem" is that too few people (though in this discussion, I'll focus on LEO) see "enforcement of law" as "force". Anybody who's actually have a conversation about taxes with a regular person who would understand this grave disconnect.
Q: "Are taxes theft?"
A: "No! Of course not."
Q: "Why do you pay taxes?"
A. "You have to pay taxes."
Q: "Why do you have to pay taxes? What if you don't?"
A: "You go to jail if you don't."
Q: "And what if you resist going to jail?"
A: "Oh, you don't wanna do that! They'll tackle you and drag you off to jail anyway."
Do I think that the law enforcement is "the problem"... No. In many ways I see law enforcement officers as victims themselves of the brainwashing of government. The idea that police are needed to "keep order" is itself a symptom of that. That LEO's don't see a traffic stop of a speeder as "threat of force" is what I consider to be the problem. It is something that I think can be corrected over time (otherwise things like the FSP can't succeed) by respectful discourse and simply living free. On the other side of that, just because you're a victim too doesn't mean that perpetuating the system makes it's impact any less real.
We will have to agree to disagree I am afraid. I feel law Enforcement is the arm of the Government on all levels Federal, State and local. When this "arm" comes into contact with the public thats when problems occur. As for Police "keeping order" for the most part just the threat of Police is enough to keep the general public in line. As for your taxes example I could add look at what happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco that was 2 examples of Law Enforcement run amock. I feel also the need to again say I am not anti-Cop I just think that until the quality of personnel thats hired, and the wages we pay them is improved we will ALWAYS have problems with this. Oh BTW when a Cop speeds when there is NO emergency, uses his lights to bypass a red light ( I have saw this done many times) , AND looks the other way when a brother/sister officer does, they are violating their oaths. Cops are not hired to select the Laws they will enforce, THEY ARE HIRED TO FAIRLY AND FIRMLY ENFORCE ALL LAWS AND IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO VIOLATES THEM.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 07:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 04, 2008, 07:12 PM NHFT
heres one I dislike.
The sobriety test (in the field).
It is practically impossible to pass.
Kola
Actually, lots of people pass them. You should research some of the tests online and try them out in your driveway, they're actually not that difficult.
I would say 1 out of 5 people pass the standardized field sobriety tests that we perform.
As a general practice... if someone has been consuming alcohol we ask them to perform tests so that we can be sure that they are not a danger to the motoring public and or driving unlawfully while intoxicated.
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 05:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 07:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 04, 2008, 07:12 PM NHFT
heres one I dislike.
The sobriety test (in the field).
It is practically impossible to pass.
Kola
Actually, lots of people pass them. You should research some of the tests online and try them out in your driveway, they're actually not that difficult.
I would say 1 out of 5 people pass the standardized field sobriety tests that we perform.
As a general practice... if someone has been consuming alcohol we ask them to perform tests so that we can be sure that they are not a danger to the motoring public and or driving unlawfully while intoxicated.
However, what comes into play in these tests is what comes up a lot: The police assuming you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent. They are looking for you to fail, so your test is under the strictest scrutiny. Couple that with the natural nervousness of being put to a sobriety test, and I think you will have a lot of people fail that are still safe drivers. I do not condone any sort of impaired driving, just speaking from another perspective.
Quote from: 'MGMAN'As for your taxes example I could add look at what happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco that was 2 examples of Law Enforcement run amock.
I don't think we disagree on the symptoms. :P I agree with everything you've put forward. The difference to me is that I don't see Waco as "Let's run in and kill the weirdos because we have the power to do it and get away with it." Put simply, I beleive those agents (or at least a good majority of them) actually considered force to be the only viable solution there. The difference as I see it is that if we can get people (the public AND law enforcement) to recognize some of the actions they take for granted as BEING FORCE the number of police officers willing to do it would decrease. I can't believe that the number of human beings who seek to harm others is so great at all cops, or even a super majority of them, are blood thirsty and out for pray.
Though, I suppose in some ways it's kind of irrelevant because for whatever reasons we both really want the same thing in the end.
Quote from: 'highline'The example the Lieutenant referenced of someone being taken behind the K-Mart and physically abused is simply something that strikes me as being completely out of the realm of possibility here in New Hampshire.
I'm glad you brought that up again. Coconut asked a question earlier on this thread about how to best interact with officers during a stop. I'd like to pose a similar question in all seriousness. You believe that this is so statistically unlikely to happen in New Hampshire that dwelling on it is misleading. Fair enough. But let us assume for a moment that the planets aligned in the right way... The ONE officer who MIGHT snap DID. If an officer of the KPD WERE assaulting someone on duty, what would you suggest that the person being assaulted do? In the admittedly RARE case of police brutality, what should someone do?
Now what about in Washington DC or Detroit, where the likelyhood of police brutality is signifigantly higher?
Quote from: Coconut on May 05, 2008, 05:43 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 05:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 04, 2008, 07:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 04, 2008, 07:12 PM NHFT
heres one I dislike.
The sobriety test (in the field).
It is practically impossible to pass.
Kola
Actually, lots of people pass them. You should research some of the tests online and try them out in your driveway, they're actually not that difficult.
I would say 1 out of 5 people pass the standardized field sobriety tests that we perform.
As a general practice... if someone has been consuming alcohol we ask them to perform tests so that we can be sure that they are not a danger to the motoring public and or driving unlawfully while intoxicated.
However, what comes into play in these tests is what comes up a lot: The police assuming you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent. They are looking for you to fail, so your test is under the strictest scrutiny. Couple that with the natural nervousness of being put to a sobriety test, and I think you will have a lot of people fail that are still safe drivers. I do not condone any sort of impaired driving, just speaking from another perspective.
That is a good point.
A problem I see with new police officers is that they are afraid to let people drive away who have alcohol on their breath. I believe a big reason for this is because the words "civil liability" are drilled into a police recruits head at the police academy. This results in many people getting arrested for DWI who should not be.
We have a standardized testing procedure which is used nationwide. We have three tests:
1. Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus (the pen in front of the eyes)
2. Walk and Turn
3. One Leg Stand
Each test has a certain number of clues assigned to it and after numerous scientific studies done it has been proven that if a person exhibits two clues on any of the three tests that their blood alcohol content will be %0.10 or higher. The HGN test has six clues, Walk and Turn eight, and One Leg Stand four.
Of course there are people who are "professional" drunks who can pass these tests. This is why many other things are taken into account. Becoming proficient at DWI detection is something that comes with time and experience.
I believe that DWI penalties should be severe. Much more severe than they are now.
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 12:23 AM NHFT
Quote from: The Right Reverend Doctor Pope Sir Ryan on May 05, 2008, 12:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 12:05 AM NHFT
Kola,
I do not know you, but your reactions and name calling in a perfectly civil conversation simply shows how unreasonable and judgemental you are.
You did the same to me when I gave you an honest and respectful answer. It seems as if unless you hear the exact words you want in a response that the person responding to you is automatically "scum." That is very inept.
Look at any of his posts anywhere: more of the same.
I simply cannot take him seriously as he is acting childish.
Painting an entire group with a broad brush because of specific bad examples (check out this (http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13800.msg237853#msg237853) and this (http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13866.0) thread), then throwing histrionic, juvenile fits (http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12741.msg239528#msg239528) when people challenge him, is a Kola trademark.
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 07:14 PM NHFT
Discipline, insofar as it is applied to police employees, is supposed to be progressive. Meaning that if Trooper Bird had nothing negative in his employment file this situation could largely be looked at as a father who got emotional while trying to protect his child. If the Trooper had a history of outbursts such as this it could warrant more severe punishment.
Does that answer your question?
I do not know Trooper Bird, but am willing to bet his reaction is uncharacteristic of his personality. People get very emotional when it comes to their children. For better or for worse.
This sounds like a reasonable answer given the information on the case. The officer should be charged for the cost of any damage, but the judge is reasonable to let him be free for a momentary loss of control in an emotional issue.
Quote from: Coconut on May 05, 2008, 07:28 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 05, 2008, 07:14 PM NHFT
Discipline, insofar as it is applied to police employees, is supposed to be progressive. Meaning that if Trooper Bird had nothing negative in his employment file this situation could largely be looked at as a father who got emotional while trying to protect his child. If the Trooper had a history of outbursts such as this it could warrant more severe punishment.
Does that answer your question?
I do not know Trooper Bird, but am willing to bet his reaction is uncharacteristic of his personality. People get very emotional when it comes to their children. For better or for worse.
This sounds like a reasonable answer given the information on the case. The officer should be charged for the cost of any damage, but the judge is reasonable to let him be free for a momentary loss of control in an emotional issue.
I have always been impressed with the temperment that most judges have around here. Most are very professional and put up with quite a bit of rudeness.
behind the scenes in the copworld:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0&feature=related
This is the first time I opened this thread, and unfortunately right now I don't have time to read it in its entirety.
I did read the first four pages or so, and must say Shane's reasonable attitude and rationality are impressive.
I might be interested in doing a ride-along later on. My schedule is pretty well tied up for the next couple of weeks, though.
MGMAN's off topic discussion has been split off:
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13920.0
split? huh?
your title says "got questions for a keene police Lt".
hmm ::)
I am still waiting for those 2 guys to answer whether they are moral cops or ethical cops (in regards to MGMAN's post)
Kola
Quote from: MGMAN on May 05, 2008, 01:19 AM NHFT
So I have a question for all you Cops that visit this forum.
Are you an ethical Cop or a Moral Cop?
I am both, given your broad definitions. Everyone has ethics and morals (indeed, Dictionary.com has "ethic" and "moral" strewn about each others entries). A persons ethics and morals come from within them, based mainly upon "nurture", to wit their upbringing and worldly experiences. As such, despite basic similarities, our ethics and morals are different from person to person.
I, as a practice, don't go around comparing mine to everyone else's (hey, show me yours and I'll show you mine!). However, my profession puts me in a fishbowl. No one probably cares much when you run through a red light at 0300hrs in the morning, but if someone sees me do it in my cruiser all hell breaks loose. I agree that you sure can find alot of examples and videos etc. of police abuse. I'll also opine that per capita you'll find many more "non-police" beat the crap out of people than police do. Neither case is OK, and within hopefully most agencies (I'd say almost certainly here in NH) we deal with that sort of misbehavior, which is how you get suspensions and firings. A recent example is a cop from MA broke his wife's arm in a fight up here vacationing in NH. He was convicted of a felony, isn't a cop any more and now resides in prison. Which is the right place for him.
It's rare around here, but when I think one of my guys is about to head down the wrong road I grab him and pull him back. Some places don't do that, and when they go nutso there should be, and usually are, consequences. For every YouTube classic bad-cop video you see out there, there is probably litigation, internal discipline and occasionally criminal charges. It's almost impossible to avoid in this day of instant communication and litigation.
Sometimes, just sometimes, a couple of cops will get together and say, "Hey, there's a few completely unarmed people in that car there, let's shoot 50 rounds into it, whaddaya say?" Then they'll do that, and kill a guy on his wedding day, then they'll waive their jury trial and let a judge (nod, nod, wink, wink) decide whether they are guilty. Then when the judge scratches their back for them, to the utter astonishment of the community, they will arrest his fiance just for good measure, because she had the nerve to protest the atrocity.
Quote from: Caleb on May 08, 2008, 08:45 PM NHFT
Sometimes, just sometimes, a couple of cops will get together and say, "Hey, there's a few completely unarmed people in that car there, let's shoot 50 rounds into it, whaddaya say?" Then they'll do that, and kill a guy on his wedding day, then they'll waive their jury trial and let a judge (nod, nod, wink, wink) decide whether they are guilty. Then when the judge scratches their back for them, to the utter astonishment of the community, they will arrest his fiance just for good measure, because she had the nerve to protest the atrocity.
Oh C'mon Caleb, that was just one bad apple. I can asure you that would never happen in my precinct! We're different. Now get in my car and let's take a ride..and be..err..buddies. I will show you how honest we are. And then maybe you will stop saying nasty things about me and my boys?
Lt. Kola
Quote from: Luke S on May 08, 2008, 11:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 02, 2008, 04:43 PM NHFT
ask them if there was a high order to go door to door and take all the peoples weapons would they follow through ( ie Katrina)
What do you mean "ie Katrina"? Let me guess, hurricane Katrina was used as an excuse for the gummint to go door to door and take all the guns from everybody in New Orleans. Well hmph. If they ever tried to do that to me, they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.
They were more than prepared to do that in N Orleans. >:( They fit the definition of jack booted thugs.
I went on a Ride-Along tonight with Lt. Maxfield.
He's open with his personal opinions and experiences. He says police are necessary, but would like to see less laws and smaller mafia. Yet likes drivers licenses, "There are people who are a danger to others and shouldn't drive". He said, "sometime you have to open up a jar of reasonable and spread it on everything". Said he used to be more arrogant and bullying but that behavior made situations worse. He wishes he wouldn't have to be everybody's nanny , that neighbors would just ask the guy with the loud stereo to turn it down, that brothers wouldn't call the cops on their brother. He would love to turn down responding to complaints where there was no victim, but he can't. The KPD is very sensitive to complaints against officers, most cases of disciplining officers were because of public relations.
Got a few scenes for B-rolls: jail cell, police cars, the dispatch center. You tube video coming soon.
Nothing too exciting happened on the streets, we did investigate an eyeglass snatching called in on the 911 line. Former boyfriend & girlfriend were arguing, one grabbed the other's glasses, the other followed suit, the Lt. returned the eyeglasses to the young man with some advice - get a new girlfriend.
Very 8)
Nicely done. :)
Did ya feel different with no stainless steel jewelry on ? ;D
Awesome job, Lauren. Thanks, Shane!
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on May 10, 2008, 10:52 PM NHFT
I went on a Ride-Along tonight with Lt. Maxfield.
How's it feel to be in the front seat for a change? ;D
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on May 10, 2008, 10:52 PM NHFT
I went on a Ride-Along tonight with Lt. Maxfield.
Quote from: Pat K on May 11, 2008, 12:50 AM NHFT
Did ya feel different with no stainless steel jewelry on ? ;D
Quote from: KBCraig on May 11, 2008, 09:51 AM NHFT
How's it feel to be in the front seat for a change? ;D
Yeah, it's weird. He still looked at me kind of askance and said he was "nervous as hell".
But they unlocked the door when I asked to go. Whew.
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on May 11, 2008, 12:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on May 10, 2008, 10:52 PM NHFT
I went on a Ride-Along tonight with Lt. Maxfield.
Quote from: Pat K on May 11, 2008, 12:50 AM NHFT
Did ya feel different with no stainless steel jewelry on ? ;D
Quote from: KBCraig on May 11, 2008, 09:51 AM NHFT
How's it feel to be in the front seat for a change? ;D
Yeah, it's weird. He still looked at me kind of askance and said he was "nervous as hell".
But they unlocked the door when I asked to go. Whew.
I hate to sound like a broken record - but I think all of you should take the Lieutenant up on his offer. :glasses7:
QuoteI hate to sound like a broken record - but I think all of you should take the Lieutenant up on his offer.
send a paddy wagon!!
Kola
Good to hear it went well.
Better to make friends than enemies.
Quote from: Pat K on May 11, 2008, 12:50 AM NHFT
Did ya feel different with no stainless steel jewelry on ? ;D
She takes it off on her own anyway 8)
lol coconut :)
What is "B-roll", Lauren?
In the old days of TV news they would have an A-roll, a tape of interviewing a person - and a B-roll, a tape of the scenery, the crowd, skid marks, details of the persons appearance or background stuff. They would play both tapes simultaneously, but when the talking head got too boring, they'd switch the picture to the B-roll and keep the audio of the interview. Also called cut-aways.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 12, 2008, 08:17 AM NHFT
What is "B-roll", Lauren?
What Lauren said. If you watch the news, they start with the anchors talking, and cut to shots of the event they're talking about. Just like Ridley has a bunch of file footage he lays over while he talks, Lauren's shots could be used in a similar way.
Thanks :)
Why was the Lt. scared of Lauren?
And where did he go? He has not posted here in quite a while.
maybe lauren locked him in the trunk?
Quote from: Puke on May 11, 2008, 01:56 PM NHFT
Good to hear it went well.
Better to make friends than enemies.
Agreed. Keene is my home, and i don't want more enemies than I need.
Quote from: Kevin Dean on May 05, 2008, 05:43 PM NHFT
Quote from: 'highline'The example the Lieutenant referenced of someone being taken behind the K-Mart and physically abused is simply something that strikes me as being completely out of the realm of possibility here in New Hampshire.
I'm glad you brought that up again. Coconut asked a question earlier on this thread about how to best interact with officers during a stop. I'd like to pose a similar question in all seriousness. You believe that this is so statistically unlikely to happen in New Hampshire that dwelling on it is misleading. Fair enough. But let us assume for a moment that the planets aligned in the right way... The ONE officer who MIGHT snap DID. If an officer of the KPD WERE assaulting someone on duty, what would you suggest that the person being assaulted do? In the admittedly RARE case of police brutality, what should someone do?
Now what about in Washington DC or Detroit, where the likelyhood of police brutality is signifigantly higher?
There's no great answer to Kevin's question here, each action has a downside. One could just go passive, which would perhaps minimize the assault, and then report it at the first opportunity, either to a Supervisor on duty at the time, or preferably directly to the Police Chief. The downside is you would take whatever lumps you get until the officer decides to stop.
You could actively try to defend yourself, but it seems to me this might cause the officer to continue until he gets whatever results he's looking for, and could also provide fodder for additional charges (resisting arrest, for example).
You could try to get away, but this also invites pursuit and more assault, plus more charges (resisting or maybe even escape (felony).
As unlikely as this whole scenario is here in Keene, I would choose the first option if it were me. Same thing in a larger city like Detroit or DC. Whatever choice you take you should follow up with a complaint to the Chief (or whomever handles the complaints).
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 12, 2008, 04:21 PM NHFT
Thanks :)
Why was the Lt. scared of Lauren?
Perhaps "scared" was not the proper word for me to have used, but "nervous" would be honest.
I was nervous because I did not know what to expect. She is somewhat of a celebrity, so I half expected a little circus in my lobby and a less pleasant experience overall. Regardless of my expectations or fears, the ride-along was in fact quite pleasant...she even likes Dr. Pepper.
In retrospect, I ran my gums far more than she did. If Lauren rides with me again, which she is welcome to, perhaps she could bend my ear as I did hers.
Quote from: highline on May 12, 2008, 04:29 PM NHFT
And where did he go? He has not posted here in quite a while.
I'm on days off, and since I live in New Hampshire's equivalent of Bedrock, my dial-up speed usually tops out at 26.4K. Maybe some day they'll run cable near me. Anyway, at those speeds it almost physically painful to surf the net, let alone upload anything. I've got solitaire running while my browser chugs away.
No, Lauren's always quiet. I've never heard her bend anyone's ear much.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 14, 2008, 02:47 AM NHFT
I'm on days off, and since I live in New Hampshire's equivalent of Bedrock, my dial-up speed usually tops out at 26.4K. Maybe some day they'll run cable near me. Anyway, at those speeds it almost physically painful to surf the net, let alone upload anything. I've got solitaire running while my browser chugs away.
I'm sure it will happen any day now, to open up shop as a CLEC (Competitive Local Exchange Carrier), a startup that competes with the ILEC (Incumbent Local Exchange Provider, ie. AT&T, Verizon), only needs a million dollars for lawyers to get started on the state PUC and FCC Filings, just to beg permission to operate. You would need equally as much in consulting fees to figure out the regulatory mess once the doors open.
Now somebody who has a high speed connection could share by setting up a Wimax tower for a few thousand dollars and offer high speed wireless service to many people within several square miles, but oh, wait that's regulated for "your" protection as well. The fact is, America has one of the lowest broadband adoption rates among our peers, and speeds are much much slower too. People living in Japan and Sweden enjoy up to 100M connections to their homes! I have the fastest consumer grade broadband service currently out, and I top out at 15% of 100M.
So, don't hold you breath. Telecom is almost as heavily regulated (i.e. Protected) as the drug companies. But hey, without all the regulation, the government would never be able to implement CALEA, which mandates any new service implement a back door for the government to listen to your calls. In the VoIP world, they can configure this remotely and have the voice packets streamed to their location without having to physically tap a line in the phone company's Central Office.
We have to keep America safe from terrorists at any cost, Right?
Quote from: 'Shane Maxfield'There's no great answer to Kevin's question here, each action has a downside. One could just go passive, which would perhaps minimize the assault, and then report it at the first opportunity, either to a Supervisor on duty at the time, or preferably directly to the Police Chief. The downside is you would take whatever lumps you get until the officer decides to stop.
You could actively try to defend yourself, but it seems to me this might cause the officer to continue until he gets whatever results he's looking for, and could also provide fodder for additional charges (resisting arrest, for example).
You could try to get away, but this also invites pursuit and more assault, plus more charges (resisting or maybe even escape (felony).
As unlikely as this whole scenario is here in Keene,
Thank you for answering that. I have to say that I think it was somewhat of a loaded question since there really isn't a good answer to it. I understand this is a rare case. Frankly, I think the "basic" enforcement of victimless crimes is enough to be uncomfortable with the existance of government law enforcement - I don't need to paint you guys with the bloodthirsty brush to indicate need for change.
That said...
Do you understand that many people do things (like identify themselves, pull over when they've not harmed someone) because of fear that the one cop behind them IS the cop that would harm them, and if they fight back it will be spun as "resisting arrest"? Or in the worst case that they'd be the next Sean Bell or Rodney King? Speaking for myself, I fear ALL police for this reason. While a specific officer (like yourself or highline or this cop (http://'http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13921.0')) may earn some trust, because police have the ABILITY to justify the initiation violence and because there's no way to identify the "bad cop" until it's too late, I will not ever be less than terrified with the current system of police.
And I can't fully classify someone as a "good cop" when they know the above information and continue to be a law enforcement officer.
[I really hate the word substitutions...]
Quote from: Kevin Dean on May 15, 2008, 11:32 AM NHFT
Thank you for answering that. I have to say that I think it was somewhat of a loaded question since there really isn't a good answer to it. I understand this is a rare case.
Not as rare as you might think in my neck of the woods.
I would think that most people that pull over for a cop do it because something bad would happen if they kept driving.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 03, 2008, 11:41 PM NHFT
None of the questions so far request supersecret, proprietary info, so I'm going to be candid (otherwise I'd just ignore the question).
Some of my colleagues think I'm nuts. Here goes.
It is interesting that you are posting on this forum, since guys can lob improvised explosive debates at you from say .... teepees in the Rocky Mountains. :) You should get a real variety of questions and reactions.
The use of the word "proprietary" is interesting in reference to the Keene Police Department, since many people would think that they collectively "own" the institution and that you all work for them.
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 14, 2008, 02:41 AM NHFT
In retrospect, I ran my gums far more than she did. If Lauren rides with me again, which she is welcome to, perhaps she could bend my ear as I did hers.
You found one of the only quiet members of this forum. Any of the rest of us would probably talk your ear off. She is our friendly ninja freedom fighting friend. :)
Quote from: Kevin Dean on May 15, 2008, 11:32 AM NHFT
[I really hate the word substitutions...]
Do this:—
govern[i][/i]ment—and it's fixed.
teepees in the rockies???
..and now with solar power!
I am more worried about those guys in earthhomes in NH.
Thats the true underground.
i am still above ground.
Kola
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 15, 2008, 05:11 PM NHFT
You found one of the only quiet members of this forum. Any of the rest of us would probably talk your ear off. She is our friendly ninja freedom fighting friend. :)
It's true. Lauren is much more of a doer than a talker. She tends to be quiet and use her words efficiently.
Quote from: dalebert on May 16, 2008, 07:15 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 15, 2008, 05:11 PM NHFT
You found one of the only quiet members of this forum. Any of the rest of us would probably talk your ear off. She is our friendly ninja freedom fighting friend. :)
It's true. Lauren is much more of a doer than a talker. She tends to be quiet and use her words efficiently.
She's the kind you really gotta keep your eye on or before you know it she'll be walking up stairs, sitting on a porch, or you might even find her standing in an IRS office :o
I guess being offered a ride shut down the copwatch.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 30, 2008, 06:40 AM NHFT
I guess being offered a ride shut down the copwatch.
Yup.
I called this out from the get-go.
a goon-plan by design.
the most vicious gooncops are the ones who want to be your "friend"
trust me on this.
Kola
Quote from: kola on May 08, 2008, 10:16 PM NHFT
Quote from: Caleb on May 08, 2008, 08:45 PM NHFT
Sometimes, just sometimes, a couple of cops will get together and say, "Hey, there's a few completely unarmed people in that car there, let's shoot 50 rounds into it, whaddaya say?" Then they'll do that, and kill a guy on his wedding day, then they'll waive their jury trial and let a judge (nod, nod, wink, wink) decide whether they are guilty. Then when the judge scratches their back for them, to the utter astonishment of the community, they will arrest his fiance just for good measure, because she had the nerve to protest the atrocity.
kolas May 8th post
Oh C'mon Caleb, that was just one bad apple. I can asure you that would never happen in my precinct! We're different. Now get in my car and let's take a ride..and be..err..buddies. I will show you how honest we are. And then maybe you will stop saying nasty things about me and my boys?
Lt. Kola
and heres where Kat smelled a rat way back!
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 03, 2008, 05:51 AM NHFT
Build rapport...make him feel like he's not a bad guy? Whatever the hell for? We don't need anything from them. They need something from us. That's why they're smoozing the copwatch guys.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 30, 2008, 06:40 AM NHFT
I guess being offered a ride shut down the copwatch.
Last I heard, zaphar is working on getting a APCO-25 scanner, so we can listen to them.
There's nothing to watch but angry drunks on Friday nights in Keene.
The two instances of watching brought us 2 hours on the radio and apparently the Sentinel is running a story on it. Both Lauren and Sam have and will be riding along with video cameras. Dialog has opened. Seems like a success to me.
Copwatch's visible component is on the low side, but it's not shut down.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 10:30 AM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 30, 2008, 06:40 AM NHFT
I guess being offered a ride shut down the copwatch.
Last I heard, zaphar is working on getting a APCO-25 scanner, so we can listen to them.
There's nothing to watch but angry drunks on Friday nights in Keene.
The two instances of watching brought us 2 hours on the radio and apparently the Sentinel is running a story on it. Both Lauren and Sam have and will be riding along with video cameras. Dialog has opened. Seems like a success to me.
Copwatch's visible component is on the low side, but it's not shut down.
On the contrary, I had a long talk to Lt. Maxfield about a week or two ago when I was at work. He made it very clear to me that he was expecting the cop-watching to continue and that he had gone out of his way to educate officers under his command about the activism CW'ers were engaged in. I genuinely believe that he never planned on things tapering off.
Although most of you may think I am just "towing the line" because I too work in law enforcement - I will tell you that after a long talk with the LT
I personally think he is a stand-up guy and genuinely wants to help many in the liberty community be informed and have a voice inside the police department. In fact, the LT at the agency for which I work (a man I greatly respect and trust) told me he served in the Marines with Lt. Maxfield many years ago and that he remembered him to be a great guy. It is true that I would not be here posting negative things about him if I had heard negative things - but you can rest assured that I would not waste my time saying anything positive.
What better way to cause change for the better than to have a powerful ally such as he on the inside of the PD?
Then why did he ask Russell for his papers when he was doing nothing wrong?
Well Brad, Lt Shame SURELY isn't showing it by arresting Russell.
Can't you see this?
Words do not make the man. His actions do.
The same goes for you as well. Would you go on Ians radio show and talk of your displeasures with the tyrannical system of government that you work for?
Kola
edit..it looks like me and Pat had the same thought at the same time. ;)
I'm just not as radical about it as you are. ;)
That is all good and well, but he seems bent on arresting our friend without even the slightest pretext of safety. a drivers license does not, contrary to popular myth, majically make one a safe driver.
The police need to get in a habit of choosing weather to cause conflict, or learn to live and let live. That is the moral imperitive as an individual. all else is secondary, that includes your laws and orders. The only time increasing the level of conflict is ever acceptable is when it is to stop greater conflict.
Quote from: Pat McCotter on May 30, 2008, 01:49 PM NHFT
Then why did he ask Russell for his papers when he was doing nothing wrong?
There are numerous occasions where I interact with people where I ask them if I could see their ID. This is because we are mandated to log information whenever we answer a complaint or initiate an investigation. People have every right to refuse - unless we are investigating an offense or they are driving/in charge of a motor vehicle.
This was probably true of the situation Russell was in............... And I know Russell is well aware that he can refuse to produce said ID... I would imagine he did.
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 01:49 PM NHFT
The same goes for you as well. Would you go on Ians radio show and talk of your displeasures with the tyrannical system of government that you work for?
Kola,
Although I have asked of myself to not interact with you due to your unnecessarily hostile responses... I think Ian himself can answer that question (if he would be so kind).
Brad
Whats the law in NH?
Can you pull a driver over without reasonable cause?
Kola
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 01:56 PM NHFT
Whats the law in NH?
Can you pull a driver over without reasonable cause?
Kola
Nowhere in the United States is this
allowed. Of course - it does happen.
What happened then between Lt and Russell? I do not know all the facts.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2008, 09:38 PM NHFT
I was driving by the country club in Keene, when I came upon about 4 cop cars. They had chased some guy on a motorcycle.
Shane Maxfield (I think that is right) was directing traffic and came up to my window to say hi. He asked me to pull off to the side. After a while the told me they had to arrest me for not having a government license. I told them they could just let me keep doing my work, but they thought it was very important.
They took me to the taj mahal and after a while let me go. They said that my other NH convictions were somehow not that bad, so I am not building to a 1 year stay in jail. I was thinking that was my future. So I told them I would show up for court on 7/7/08. I asked for a court date 7 years from now. That didn't happen.
Maybe they will convict me on the same thing as last time .... ask for some money .... and I can stay in the jail for a while to pay off the mafia.
I guess it wasn't too bad. Kat rode her bike over and picked up the car and finished my work for the day, then picked me up.
Hopefully I will remain free most of the time, so I can hang out with Kat and get some stuph done.
Maybe I will have to ride my bike everywhere and/or get a scooter ... and have others drive when I need to pick up supplies. I have only driven on 2 different days since I got out of jail in April.
Quote from: highline on May 30, 2008, 01:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 01:56 PM NHFT
Whats the law in NH?
Can you pull a driver over without reasonable cause?
Kola
Nowhere in the United States is this allowed. Of course - it does happen.
so all sobriety checks, seatbelts checks and other "checkpoints" away from borders are illegal and/or strongly interfere with a persons right to travel?
Kola
Quote from: Pat McCotter on May 30, 2008, 02:01 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2008, 09:38 PM NHFT
I was driving by the country club in Keene, when I came upon about 4 cop cars. They had chased some guy on a motorcycle.
Shane Maxfield (I think that is right) was directing traffic and came up to my window to say hi. He asked me to pull off to the side. After a while the told me they had to arrest me for not having a government license. I told them they could just let me keep doing my work, but they thought it was very important.
They took me to the taj mahal and after a while let me go. They said that my other NH convictions were somehow not that bad, so I am not building to a 1 year stay in jail. I was thinking that was my future. So I told them I would show up for court on 7/7/08. I asked for a court date 7 years from now. That didn't happen.
Maybe they will convict me on the same thing as last time .... ask for some money .... and I can stay in the jail for a while to pay off the mafia.
I guess it wasn't too bad. Kat rode her bike over and picked up the car and finished my work for the day, then picked me up.
Hopefully I will remain free most of the time, so I can hang out with Kat and get some stuph done.
Maybe I will have to ride my bike everywhere and/or get a scooter ... and have others drive when I need to pick up supplies. I have only driven on 2 different days since I got out of jail in April.
I did see that Pat. I wanted to see what facts Brad had...because yes it appears Shame had no right and or probable cause to make Russell pull over. Russel was later detained and arrested without cause.
The case should be thrown out.
Kola
what is the country coming to where cops can randomly point out innocent people and do harm to them?
...and people ask why I call it Naziville, USSA.
Kola
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 02:02 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 30, 2008, 01:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 01:56 PM NHFT
Whats the law in NH?
Can you pull a driver over without reasonable cause?
Kola
Nowhere in the United States is this allowed. Of course - it does happen.
so all sobriety checks, seatbelts checks and other "checkpoints" away from borders are illegal and/or strongly interfere with a persons right to travel?
Kola
Personally I completely agree with you that sobriety checks and the border checkpoints are unconstitutional, yet our courts allow them.
The seatbelt ones are different because the police do not detain people unless they spot a violation. Personally I think that having officers standing on the road flagging vehicles over for noticeable violations (inspection stickers, seat belts, registration) is heavy handed and a poor use of police resources.
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 01:49 PM NHFT
The same goes for you as well. Would you go on Ians radio show and talk of your displeasures with the tyrannical system of government that you work for?
He has.
Quote from: Pat McCotter on May 30, 2008, 01:49 PM NHFT
Then why did he ask Russell for his papers when he was doing nothing wrong?
:clap:
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 30, 2008, 04:05 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat McCotter on May 30, 2008, 01:49 PM NHFT
Then why did he ask Russell for his papers when he was doing nothing wrong?
:clap:
I patiently await "Shame on Maxfields" reply.
holding breath,
Kola
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 03:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 01:49 PM NHFT
The same goes for you as well. Would you go on Ians radio show and talk of your displeasures with the tyrannical system of government that you work for?
He has.
has he spoken about leaving his LEO position?
Quote from: Kat Kanning on May 30, 2008, 06:40 AM NHFT
I guess being offered a ride shut down the copwatch.
Ian already commented on this, but I just wanted to echo.
There isn't a whole lot to watch. It's hard to find people willing to give up hours of time walking downtown, where we might see 2 pullovers if we're lucky. Me, on a warm night, I'd bike up and down the strip for hours, if I had a bike (I'll probably go to the shop next Friday). I wish we had the infrastructure to have some sort of response team to incidents, but we just don't have that right now.
First, to Dr. Kirk, "You win." There, now go play with your blocks and leave the grown-ups to talk.
Now that the flurry of "outrage" and name-calling has subsided a bit, I will speak, given that several people have demanded to know the why's, how's etc. No doubt most will disagree with my views, but you've asked and I'll answer, and civilly.
First, some background. I have outlined, in detail to Lauren and more basically in these forums, my views on the "Driver's License" concept. Call them "papers" if it makes you feel better, but whatever you call them, they are NOT a requirement to live in this country, not even to travel. However, if you want to be in control of a car, you need a license. The reasoning behind this is simple: there are lots of people out there who regularly endanger the rest of us (and our families). Whether they routinely drive drunk, drive recklessly (like the motorcyclist from the other day who initiated the events that eventually led to my arresting Russell), habitually speed etc. The licensing process attempts to keep them off the roads by having the requirement that everyone needs one to drive, and when you lose your license you lose your privilege to drive that 2000lb hunk of steel on the roads. The consequences of getting caught driving without a license, or on a suspended license, deter most of those dangerous drivers, in my experience. And keeps them from driving, and endangering you and me.
"No victim, no crime," is what is thrown at me now, and I say again, there's never a victim until BAM, people burn to death or are maimed for life, or just have their car wrecked. Everyone says "Wow, what a bummer," but usually it's not your wife who's dead, or your seven year old daughter who is decapitated by a drunk driver (exaggeration? Here's the link: http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/05/29/o.lifesaving.lesson/index.html ).
Now, I don't agree with suspending people's licenses for non-payment of child support, or for blowing through an EasyPass toll gate. But I do support the basic premise, and purpose, behind the driver's licensing system. Because of that, I do not let people just drive off when I know they're suspended. While I have given many people breaks for a joint or baggie of dope or pot pipe, I have not for driving suspended.
Russell's account of his arrest was quite accurate. He's a good man and I've yet to find him being dishonest or trying to bullshit, even when it might benefit him. This is what happened through from my viewpoint: Two of my officers had stopped a motorcyclist for slaloming through traffic, in the oncoming lane, at over a hundred miles per hour. Some of you will say "Where's the problem?" We saw a problem and addressed it. We managed to stop him on West Street at Base Hill Road, where the Country Club is. As the Shift Commander I went over to offer my assistance, and found that my two units and the motorcycle were filling most of a lane, so I got out to help traffic around. As I was doing so, Russell drove up and stopped at the stop sign, I immediately saw that was him. I was sure his license was suspended (because it has been since I've known him and he's repeatedly told me and others he doesn't need a license to drive), so I walked over to him. He was smiling, and asked me what was going on. I told him, and told him to pull over near where the motorcycle was, and he did. He got out, there was some discussion about his license, and I asked why, if he was paying California the child support stuff, they couldn't reinstate his license? I think he said something about it would take months for them to do that. His license was confirmed as suspended, and we arrested him. A tow truck had been requested for Russell's car, but he asked if Kat could just take it, I said sure and cancelled the tow.
At the PD, Russell was cooperative and agreed to be bailed. However, a closer check of his motor vehicle record indicated that this current charge would only be a violation, so I told my officer to cancel the Bail Commish for him and just release him on a Summons.
To sum up: I saw Russell driving, knew he was suspended, detained him and double-checked it, and arrested him. He was processed and released on a Summons.
I will explain, as I have to Russell probably a couple times. When people rack up enough points on their driving record, they will eventually be declared a Habitual Offender. When they get arrested for driving again, they will get charged with a felony and will go to jail, most likely for a year. The courts don't give a rat's ass about anyone's politics, or their opinion of whether they should be required to have a driver's license. It's the law to have one, and they will put you in jail over it.
As I see it, there's a sizeable portion of the population who would support reform of the drug laws. That support seems to be growing, and indeed I support that as well. However, in regards to driver's licensing, I think you will find the vast majority of people support it.
The retort I get to this is "Mob rule." Fine, but be honest...if the "mob" agreed with your views you wouldn't have a problem with it.
While we're talking about laws and change, I'd like to take this opportunity to discuss just that. No intent to insult or put you guys down, just my opinions. I see, as I've said before, many good ideas in this movement, much correct thinking. I also see disorganization, lack of leadership and a hodgepodge of actions limited to the tactical level (that's the local stuff, like the open-carry litter pickups, copwatch, puppet shows, "I'm gonna drive on my suspended license" etc.). In some ways this is good (it's difficult to smash an organization that is as decentralized as you guys, to put it bluntly). However, tactical actions alone will not affect much change. You may attract individuals to join your movement from here and there, you may get individuals from within the hoovernment to join you, or at least agree with you on some levels (as I do). Some tactical actions might attract negative attention from the very citizens you're trying to "wake up," making them think you're a bunch of kooks (even before they check out some of the more, uh, extreme personalities on this forum!).
In order for you guys to affect change (change or eliminate certain laws or whatever), you're going to need the support of the general population, or at least a goodly portion of it. You just don't have the numbers or support for a "revolution" if that's what you're after. To think you're just going to rip down the current political structure of this state or the nation is a pipe dream, at least for now. You should get some people thinking "strategic," which means putting your own reps and senators in the state house, or at least winning many more current ones over to your thinking. Then you can work to repeal laws to your heart's content. I suspect once people around the country see "it" working in NH, you may spark efforts in other states, and eventually the nation. It will take time, and effort. And if eventually it is legal for Russell to drive around with no license, and with a huge doobie hanging on his lip, I'll be more than happy to wave to him as he drives on by.
Lastly, for the three of you who have listened to this point, I came to this forum looking for neither "buddies" nor the subversion of your cause. I came because I agree with many of your views, and I thought that communication (I called it détente earlier) could only benefit us all.
Enjoy your weekend, I'm going camping.
On licensing:
Private road owners and auto/road insurers would have incentive to certify drivers and restrict them as necessary. Safe roads are important.
As a former professional driver, Russell could easily pass certification.
If he chose to get one from a recognized area driving school, that should be more than sufficient to satisfy any competency concerns the police have with him.
Would you arrest him if he was privately certified? If yes, you are not protecting anyone, but acting as a govt revenue enforcer.
Post moved per coconut's suggestion.
Maxfield posted an identical post in the "Russell Arrested" thread on Civil Disobedience. I suggest we keep all comments to his post on that thread.
Ian and anyone else involved with Copwatch in the Keene area, I'll be in Keene for several days this year, likely just before Burning Porcupine and I'd love to help with Copwatch. I don't own a video recorder but I do have a car and I'd love to do Copwatch with someone that has a recorder. I may even be in Keene right after Pocfest to do this.
woo hoo, I didn't see you last year at porcfest such and such. It'd be cool to see you in Keene. 8)
David, I was in summer school so I missed Porcfest 07. So, does that mean you wanna do some cop watching?
Quote from: Such and Such on June 01, 2008, 02:09 AM NHFT
David, I was in summer school so I missed Porcfest 07. So, does that mean you wanna do some cop watching?
It's hard to know where to look. I know that 101 is a pretty popular road for pullovers, but it's long. I saw a 3 cop pullover there yesterday, but didn't stop to record it or anything.
What an interesting thread. What happened to these two policemen? Are they still abusing their power and disrespecting the oath they took?
Were the charges against Mr. Kanning dismissed?
Littlehawk