New Hampshire Underground

New Hampshire Underground => Civil Disobedience => Topic started by: Radical_Teen on May 29, 2008, 07:31 PM NHFT

Title: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Radical_Teen on May 29, 2008, 07:31 PM NHFT
Russell got arrested again for driving without the government's ID. Kat has gone to see if they will let him go. They said they would let him go if he promised to show to court.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: TackleTheWorld on May 29, 2008, 07:32 PM NHFT
 :(
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Puke on May 29, 2008, 07:35 PM NHFT
Damn.  >:(
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Pat K on May 29, 2008, 07:43 PM NHFT
 :( >:(
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on May 29, 2008, 07:50 PM NHFT
Awwww goddamn it
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Jim Johnson on May 29, 2008, 08:03 PM NHFT
 :glasses7:  :cardinal: :glasses7:   :icon_guitarist: :BangHead:
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: error on May 29, 2008, 08:04 PM NHFT
Sure, I'll come to your court. But you probably will regret asking me to show up after I've said my piece.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Radical_Teen on May 29, 2008, 08:11 PM NHFT
Russell just called and said they're about to let him go. :)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on May 29, 2008, 08:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: Radical_Teen on May 29, 2008, 08:11 PM NHFT
Russell just called and said they're about to let him go. :)

Great to see.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Pat K on May 29, 2008, 08:24 PM NHFT
 ;D 8)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Vitruvian on May 29, 2008, 08:28 PM NHFT
(http://xs127.xs.to/xs127/08225/smith1124.jpg)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: TackleTheWorld on May 29, 2008, 09:01 PM NHFT
 :fingerscrossed:
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2008, 09:07 PM NHFT
they let me go like last time
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: kola on May 29, 2008, 09:16 PM NHFT
did they tow your car?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: TackleTheWorld on May 29, 2008, 09:16 PM NHFT
 :wav:
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Jim Johnson on May 29, 2008, 09:17 PM NHFT
Did you see any aliens?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on May 29, 2008, 09:24 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2008, 09:07 PM NHFT
they let me go like last time

What are they on the prowl for you now? Uhp! "There's Kanning's van, pull him over and make up some bullshit reason."
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Caleb on May 29, 2008, 09:26 PM NHFT
Where was this? Keene?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2008, 09:38 PM NHFT
I was driving by the country club in Keene, when I came upon about 4 cop cars. They had chased some guy on a motorcycle.
Shane Maxfield (I think that is right) was directing traffic and came up to my window to say hi. He asked me to pull off to the side. After a while the told me they had to arrest me for not having a government license. I told them they could just let me keep doing my work, but they thought it was very important.
They took me to the taj mahal and after a while let me go. They said that my other NH convictions were somehow not that bad, so I am not building to a 1 year stay in jail. I was thinking that was my future. So I told them I would show up for court on 7/7/08. I asked for a court date 7 years from now. That didn't happen.
Maybe they will convict me on the same thing as last time .... ask for some money .... and I can stay in the jail for a while to pay off the mafia.

I guess it wasn't too bad. Kat rode her bike over and picked up the car and finished my work for the day, then picked me up.

Hopefully I will remain free most of the time, so I can hang out with Kat and get some stuph done. :)

Maybe I will have to ride my bike everywhere and/or get a scooter ... and have others drive when I need to pick up supplies. I have only driven on 2 different days since I got out of jail in April.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: K. Darien Freeheart on May 29, 2008, 09:46 PM NHFT
Glad you're all right Russell.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Caleb on May 29, 2008, 09:48 PM NHFT
This just makes no sense? Were you in any sort of violation of their little laws, other than the `no license' law? Does Shane think that he can now demand to see anybody's papers regardless of whether there is some violation?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2008, 09:54 PM NHFT
I don't think so .... they just recognized me. The mafia can identify me ... and then arrest me because I don't have ID.

"We can't let there develope a doomsday gap, a mine shaft gap .... or an ID gap" Dr. Strangelove 2008
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Jim Johnson on May 29, 2008, 09:57 PM NHFT
Way to go Shane... your Swastika sits squarely on your shoulder and your boots shine brightly in the sun.
The cocky tilt to your hat tells people that your the one.
You may sit your ass on liberties flame, but to free men you do nothing but shame.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: kola on May 29, 2008, 09:59 PM NHFT
gooncop Shane..Ians buddy.

the only reason him and his muttfriend(highwhiner) came here was to stop the Copwatch program. They fooled a couple people and now there is no more Copwatch huh?

a few got suckered in by their bullshit but the gooncops actions always reveal their true colors. Beware a goon who "acts" friendly. These are the worst ones...backstabbing mofos.

kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Caleb on May 29, 2008, 10:01 PM NHFT
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on May 29, 2008, 09:57 PM NHFT
You may sit your ass on liberties flame, but to free men you do nothing but shame.

Whether intentionally or not, you have created a perfect blank verse. Might even be free verse, but I haven't bothered to analyze your sense stress yet.

You may sit your ass on liberty's flame
but to free men you do nothing but shame.

Bravo! I salute you, Mr. Poet but Didn't Know It   :clap:
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2008, 10:03 PM NHFT
they didn't think it was a big deal .... just something that needed some paperwork done ... or clearing up
there is a huge gap between us and them
time for bed ... hopefully I can get through tomorrow without getting arrested
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: KBCraig on May 29, 2008, 10:29 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2008, 09:07 PM NHFT
they let me go like last time

They're learning to accept the inevitable.  8)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: dalebert on May 29, 2008, 10:42 PM NHFT
What was the "probable cause" for stopping you? Was it your license plate?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Puke on May 30, 2008, 05:15 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 29, 2008, 09:59 PM NHFT
the only reason him and his muttfriend(highwhiner) came here was to stop the Copwatch program. They fooled a couple people and now there is no more Copwatch huh?

Highline is not a Keene cop dipshit.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 30, 2008, 05:25 AM NHFT
Quote from: dalebert on May 29, 2008, 10:42 PM NHFT
What was the "probable cause" for stopping you? Was it your license plate?
the person driving the car was Russell Kanning
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 30, 2008, 05:27 AM NHFT
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on May 29, 2008, 09:17 PM NHFT
Did you see any aliens?
nope .... one guy for speeding and running away from the organized crime enforcers
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 06:26 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 29, 2008, 09:59 PM NHFT
gooncop Shane..Ians buddy.

the only reason him and his muttfriend(highwhiner) came here was to stop the Copwatch program. They fooled a couple people and now there is no more Copwatch huh?

a few got suckered in by their bullshit but the gooncops actions always reveal their true colors. Beware a goon who "acts" friendly. These are the worst ones...backstabbing mofos.

kola

You're a fool.  Maxfield is no "buddy" of mine.  Just because he's a bureaucrat/cop doesn't mean I'm going to hate him like you do.

I believe people change.  Maxfield listens to my show and reads posts here.  That can only be a good thing.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 06:28 AM NHFT
Russell, would you like us to wear judge robes to court?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 30, 2008, 06:32 AM NHFT
I'm on Kola's side in this one  :fencing: .... I think the cops should quit their jobs.

We might be about to

:pirateship:

but it will be a great ride.

I invite all the cops to hang out on Ian's forum, where they will be appreciated.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Coconut on May 30, 2008, 07:39 AM NHFT
I don't know about wearing a robe, but I'm excited about the possibility of going to my first freestater trial.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 09:51 AM NHFT
QuoteIan said:
You're a fool.  Maxfield is no "buddy" of mine.  Just because he's a bureaucrat/cop doesn't mean I'm going to hate him like you do.

I believe people change.  Maxfield listens to my show and reads posts here.  That can only be a good thing.

I ain't no fool brother. I WAS a fool (when I was your age) but I am now reformed.  :)

Ian, let me tell you from experience, SOME people never change. But cops are not REAL people. They can't change because they are cops 24/7 and their "job" is to due the dirty work from the higher gestapo
orders. Cops are the mafias hitmen. Do you have mafia hitmen as friends too?

Just because two arrogant insecure cops listen to YOUR show and post and read here does not automatically mean its "good thing". Was it such a "good thing" that your readers and listeners (2 pigs) arrested Russell and ruined his day and is it a good thing that they they will ruin even more idays for Russell in the future?

What is it going to take to make you see that ALL cops fuck up peoples lives every day without good reason? Would it have been a good thing if they killed Russell? Maybe then would it sink in that cops are goons, thugs and murderers?

Ian, your buddies came on this forum to win YOU over to stop Copwatching. They baited you and reeled you in. And for the time being, their little game was succsessful. If Maxfield had one damn drop of GOOD blood in his veins he would have left Russell alone. This is Russells site for christs sake. That bastard had the nerve to come on Russells sight, talk up a bunch of shit and then he turns around and busts Russell. C'mon Ian, I thought you were a self-thinker.

How the hell is that a GOOD THING?

And for the record, I hate no one. But I sure as hell  know who is bad and who I should I avoid. Knowing who the enemy is the first step in making change and/or avoiding being harmed. Take off your rose colored glasses. Just because you have a couple thugs on your radio show doesnt mean jack squat. Learn to judge people for their actions and not what they say. Sorry Ian but you are being duped by 2 professional dupers. (aka gooncops).

How about this Ian? If they arrest YOU, would you see differently?

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Coconut on May 30, 2008, 10:03 AM NHFT
Maxfield has said he wants us out CopWatching. Of course by your logic that is just his reverse psycology to get us to stop.  :-\
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: David on May 30, 2008, 10:13 AM NHFT
Most gov't agencies have public relations people.  I believed that is what he was doing the minute Ian announced they offered a ride along.  I try not to get too worked up about things I expect to happen. 
I attempted to get Shane Maxfield to choose not to enforce clearly victimless laws, or at a minumum, to choose to be less 'effective'.  He has made his choice, and it was to increase the level of conflict by aggressively enforcing bad law, without even the pretext of safety.   ::)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on May 30, 2008, 10:17 AM NHFT
 >:( all cops suck!!!!!!!!!!!
russell you are a cop magnet and if you push them, once they get enough paperwork stacked up with your name you will get your year. I say this in honesty being someone who has fought the system and continues too and lost, more than once. NH is no different than any other police state, but i stand with you rather than lick the shiny boots of any jack booted thug no matter where he posts his warped opinions.
stay on the cops ass kola... i'm with you on the cop subject.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 10:19 AM NHFT
Quote from: Coconut on May 30, 2008, 10:03 AM NHFT
Maxfield has said he wants us out CopWatching. Of course by your logic that is just his reverse psycology to get us to stop.  :-\

Of course Coconut. Everything they have done has worked so far hasn't it? This is THEIR game and they do it best,... manipulate people, disrupt innocent people lives and resort to beating and killing them if need be. As I said before they are the deadliest animals crawling on this earth.

I am waiting for Max Porkfaces explanation why he arrested Russell.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 10:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: David on May 30, 2008, 10:13 AM NHFT
Most gov't agencies have public relations people.  I believed that is what he was doing the minute Ian announced they offered a ride along.  I try not to get too worked up about things I expect to happen. 
I attempted to get Shane Maxfield to choose not to enforce clearly victimless laws, or at a minumum, to choose to be less 'effective'.  He has made his choice, and it was to increase the level of conflict by aggressively enforcing bad law, without even the pretext of safety.   ::)

all good points David. I am glad the 2 cops came here because now others can see how transparent they really are.
The gooners used their own words and comments here on the forum yet acted differently. Now it easily convinces the other commonfolk readers that they are true liars, masters of deception and evil thugs and murderers.

Ol Maxy-boy self-incriminated himself and was too stupid to realize the truth would reveal itself. Ironic huh?

and yeah Jose, I am with you too. There are no GOOD cops. NONE.

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Giggan on May 30, 2008, 10:48 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 09:51 AM NHFT...Just because you have a couple thugs on your radio show doesnt mean jack squat....

I pictured Matt Foley saying that when I read it.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 10:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 09:51 AM NHFT
I ain't no fool brother. I WAS a fool (when I was your age) but I am now reformed.  :)

Ian, let me tell you from experience, SOME people never change. But cops are not REAL people. They can't change because they are cops 24/7 and their "job" is to due the dirty work from the higher gestapo orders.   Cops are the mafias hitmen. Do you have mafia hitmen as friends too?

How inflammatory.  How anyone can take you seriously, I don't understand.  I don't have "friends" who are cops.  I have acquaintances with whom I am friendly.  There's no reason for me to be otherwise.  While it may be true that some people resist change, until I am certain I'm dealing with someone like that, I won't pre-judge them by the color of their skin, hair, or the job they hold.

QuoteJust because two arrogant insecure cops listen to YOUR show and post and read here does not automatically mean its "good thing". Was it such a "good thing" that your readers and listeners (2 pigs) arrested Russell and ruined his day and is it a good thing that they they will ruin even more idays for Russell in the future?

It's a good thing, because we influence people.  (I know, you don't think they are people, but you're a douche.  I'm writing this so everyone else reading it can see a different perspective.)  It's good because since listening to my show and interacting with Free Staters, Highline is teetering on the edge of leaving the police.  He did not arrest Russell.  Of course it's not good the Keene cops targeted Russell.  I've been to support Russell in court, while you just snipe on an internet forum.

QuoteWhat is it going to take to make you see that ALL cops fuck up peoples lives every day without good reason?

Your hyperbolic claim is impossible to prove.  You think I'm blind to what some of them do?  Fact is, they are individuals.  Some are misled, some have good intentions, many are open minded enough to change.  If all you do is yell at them, they'll never listen to you.

QuoteWould it have been a good thing if they killed Russell? Maybe then would it sink in that cops are goons, thugs and murderers?

Many cops are goons, thugs, and murderers.  I know, I read the news.  I've known people who have been close to cops, arrested by cops, and I've known cops.  However, unlike you I don't engage in collectivist thinking.  Cops are individuals making choices.  Usually those choices are wrong, but people can and do change.

QuoteIan, your buddies came on this forum to win YOU over to stop Copwatching. They baited you and reeled you in. And for the time being, their little game was succsessful. If Maxfield had one damn drop of GOOD blood in his veins he would have left Russell alone. This is Russells site for christs sake. That bastard had the nerve to come on Russells sight, talk up a bunch of shit and then he turns around and busts Russell. C'mon Ian, I thought you were a self-thinker.

You don't know anything about me.

QuoteAnd for the record, I hate no one. But I sure as hell  know who is bad and who I should I avoid. Knowing who the enemy is the first step in making change and/or avoiding being harmed. Take off your rose colored glasses. Just because you have a couple thugs on your radio show doesnt mean jack squat. Learn to judge people for their actions and not what they say. Sorry Ian but you are being duped by 2 professional dupers. (aka gooncops).

Whatever.  You're full of vitriol.  How am I being duped, exactly? 

QuoteHow about this Ian? If they arrest YOU, would you see differently?

My lady Julia has been arrested and she feels as I do.  There's no harm in communicating.  These guys need to hear our message more than the average bureaucrat.

You may resume posting your ignorant nonsense.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 10:59 AM NHFT
Quote from: giggan on May 30, 2008, 10:48 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 09:51 AM NHFT...Just because you have a couple thugs on your radio show doesnt mean jack squat....

I pictured Matt Foley saying that when I read it.

thats my fav Cris Farley skit.

" you're gonna find your not gonna amount to JACKSQUATTTTTT!

or when he says ... why dont you just shut your YAPPPPPERRRRR!!!!
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 11:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 10:28 AM NHFT
all good points David. I am glad the 2 cops came here because now others can see how transparent they really are.
The gooners used their own words and comments here on the forum yet acted differently. Now it easily convinces the other commonfolk readers that they are true liars, masters of deception and evil thugs and murderers.

Ol Maxy-boy self-incriminated himself and was too stupid to realize the truth would reveal itself. Ironic huh?

and yeah Jose, I am with you too. There are no GOOD cops. NONE.

Kola

I will stand up for Highline.  He is the one cop in America with the courage to stand against the system and speak out against the War on Drugs.  He regularly speaks out to other cops and the public as well.  He uses his position to curry favor for the idea of personal freedom.

Please explain how that makes him bad.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 11:04 AM NHFT
I will tell you what Ian. I will eat my words and offer humble apologies to any and all partiees should higlinder quit being a cop.

Until then I wont hold my breath.

..and yet you accuse me of being inflammatory and then you call me names like douchbag etc. ?? I think highlander used that term too. You are starting to talk like them. Whats next?  Hell maybe you will end up being a cop!


Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 11:12 AM NHFT
Yeah, didn't think you'd be able to make a case.

Pathetic.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 11:13 AM NHFT
QuoteI will stand up for Highline.  He is the one cop in America with the courage to stand against the system and speak out against the War on Drugs.  He regularly speaks out to other cops and the public as well.  He uses his position to curry favor for the idea of personal freedom.

Please explain how that makes him bad.

If he continues his actions, the mother will devour her own young. Happens every time.

There is no room for a good cop and the other gangmembers (cops) make sure of that. No boat-rockers are allowed.
If a cop dont play the game, he will have to leave on his own or he will be eliminated.

I got a topic for your radio show. Find some people who quit the cop force and speak with them. Read about LT Jack McLamb and others too.

and try and stop calling me names. We can be more productive "attempting" to be somewhat nice to each other. you can call me fool and douchbag and scumbag and god knows what else.

My bark is definately worse than my bite. Lighten up..maybe?

Your dream that cops can be good sounds nice and shows you have some compassion..but its not reality. Maybe years from now you might think differently.


Kola


Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 11:21 AM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 11:12 AM NHFT
Yeah, didn't think you'd be able to make a case.

Pathetic.


I do not want to make a case...nor even attempt. Your mind is set and so is mine isn't it. The only reason I comment is for the others to read (if they choose).

IMO I think you need some "seasoning". Let the cops screw up your life just a little bit, spend some nights in a cold lonely jail cell, get your anus aggressively probed by them, have them steal your car or cameras, maybe have them knock you around abit or have them lean on your throat when your on the ground and gasping for air and then go ahead and dish out your hard earned money for heavy lawyer fees and bail  to make them go away (for a while).

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 30, 2008, 11:51 AM NHFT
I haven't been fighting the government too much ... I just lack some of their paperwork. I just didn't used to get pulled over.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Coconut on May 30, 2008, 11:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 11:03 AM NHFT
I will stand up for Highline.  He is the one cop in America with the courage to stand against the system and speak out against the War on Drugs. 

Does Highline = Brad Jardis? Sorry if this was common knowledge
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: K. Darien Freeheart on May 30, 2008, 12:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: 'Coconut'Does Highline = Brad Jardis? Sorry if this was common knowledge

I was wondering the same thing since listening to the recent Talkback episode.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 12:57 PM NHFT
I think it is Brad. Beth mentioned that back awhile ago but I am not 100% sure. 99% tho'


It would make my day to hear he quit being a thug. But most who "ride the fence" just do it to try and justify to themselves that they are A-OK and "good". It helps them sleep.

I would really like to see Ian interview people who quit being a cop...maybe interview highliner and see if he would talk publicly (on air) about his thinkings of quitting. Call his bluff. Is he really serious or what?  :)

I can only imagine most cop quitters do not want to talk about things publicly because of the fear of retaliation from their former gangmembers and "institutions". When gangbanger wants out, he has to go into hiding. In biker gangs its the same. IMO a cop quitter would be wise to just shut his mouth and get on with his life. 

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 30, 2008, 04:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Coconut on May 30, 2008, 11:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2008, 11:03 AM NHFT
I will stand up for Highline.  He is the one cop in America with the courage to stand against the system and speak out against the War on Drugs. 

Does Highline = Brad Jardis? Sorry if this was common knowledge

yes
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Friday on May 30, 2008, 05:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 09:51 AM NHFT

Ian, let me tell you from experience, SOME people never change. But cops are not REAL people. They can't change because they are cops 24/7 and their "job" is to due the dirty work from the higher gestapo
orders. Cops are the mafias hitmen. Do you have mafia hitmen as friends too?
Stefan Molyneux uses the same logic to claim that all Christians are, without exception, evil killers at heart, and must be ostracized. 

I don't agree with either one of you.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on May 30, 2008, 05:46 PM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on May 30, 2008, 05:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 30, 2008, 09:51 AM NHFT

Ian, let me tell you from experience, SOME people never change. But cops are not REAL people. They can't change because they are cops 24/7 and their "job" is to due the dirty work from the higher gestapo
orders. Cops are the mafias hitmen. Do you have mafia hitmen as friends too?
Stefan Molyneux uses the same logic to claim that all Christians are, without exception, evil killers at heart, and must be ostracized. 

I don't agree with either one of you.

Heretic!! You have defamed the high foreheaded one.

  You must now listen to 4 pod casts,
   to repent.  ;D

  P.S. I dreamed this would Happen!
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 30, 2008, 06:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on May 30, 2008, 05:27 PM NHFT
I don't agree with either one of you.
I agree with Friday .... and not just because it is friday
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on May 30, 2008, 07:15 PM NHFT
So even tommorrow when it's Saturday...............
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Raineyrocks on May 30, 2008, 08:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on May 30, 2008, 07:15 PM NHFT
So even tommorrow when it's Saturday...............

I got that one right away, OMG, you are hilarious!   The day I quit smoking and you crack me up, that's pretty good!  I wish I had that green laughing smiley guy, I'd put 9, (one of my favorite #'s), on this post to you.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat McCotter on May 30, 2008, 08:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: raineyrocks on May 30, 2008, 08:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on May 30, 2008, 07:15 PM NHFT
So even tommorrow when it's Saturday...............

I got that one right away, OMG, you are hilarious!   The day I quit smoking and you crack me up, that's pretty good!  I wish I had that green laughing smiley guy, I'd put 9, (one of my favorite #'s), on this post to you.

rainey,
This is one of the green smiley guys. ":icon_biggrin:" Just type this in your message with a space before and after it. And don't use the quotes.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 08:26 PM NHFT
Russell, I wonder if they consider you a repeat offender or if you have an "official" label yet? (criminal extremist, domestic terrorist etc) You guys should file of FOI request or contact ACLU, if interested.
Just be damn careful.


Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Raineyrocks on May 30, 2008, 09:07 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat McCotter on May 30, 2008, 08:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: raineyrocks on May 30, 2008, 08:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on May 30, 2008, 07:15 PM NHFT
So even tommorrow when it's Saturday...............

I got that one right away, OMG, you are hilarious!   The day I quit smoking and you crack me up, that's pretty good!  I wish I had that green laughing smiley guy, I'd put 9, (one of my favorite #'s), on this post to you.

rainey,
This is one of the green smiley guys. ":icon_biggrin:" Just type this in your message with a space before and after it. And don't use the quotes.



Hi Pat,

How's it going?  Thanks for giving me the smiley guy's thing and telling me how to use it now I don't have to write it.  It just isn't the same as seeing the smiley.   I wonder what ever happened to all my smileys.

I also was just thinking that maybe I got Pat K and Russell's posts all wrong.  I see that Russell used a lowercase F for his second mentioning of Friday, so I think he actually meant because it is the day friday not the person Friday so therefore it makes Pat K's post funny but not as funny as I originally took it to be.

Now for the fun question, do you understand anything at all that I just wrote? :icon_biggrin:

One more thing I just copied the smiley guy, quotes and all until I saw that you wrote and don't use the quotes.  Your really getting to know me I think.  Uh,oh!
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Raineyrocks on May 30, 2008, 09:08 PM NHFT
Did the smiley come out right?  It won't show up on my screen?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Dave Ridley on May 30, 2008, 09:22 PM NHFT
video up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVU9wyaN8rk
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on May 30, 2008, 09:23 PM NHFT
Yes the smiley came out right.

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat McCotter on May 30, 2008, 09:24 PM NHFT
Quote from: raineyrocks on May 30, 2008, 09:08 PM NHFT
Did the smiley come out right?  It won't show up on my screen?

Yes it came out correct.
Here are some of the basics:
:) = smiley
;) = wink
:D = cheesy smile
;D = grin
>:( = angry
:( = sad
:o = shocked
8) = cool
::) = roll eyes
:P = stick out tongue
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Shane Maxfield on May 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
First, to Dr. Kirk, "You win."  There, now go play with your blocks and leave the grown-ups to talk.

Now that the flurry of "outrage" and name-calling has subsided a bit, I will speak, given that several people have demanded to know the why's, how's etc.  No doubt most will disagree with my views, but you've asked and I'll answer, and civilly.

First, some background.  I have outlined, in detail to Lauren and more basically in these forums, my views on the "Driver's License" concept.  Call them "papers" if it makes you feel better, but whatever you call them, they are NOT a requirement to live in this country, not even to travel.  However, if you want to be in control of a car, you need a license.  The reasoning behind this is simple: there are lots of people out there who regularly endanger the rest of us (and our families).  Whether they routinely drive drunk, drive recklessly (like the motorcyclist from the other day who initiated the events that eventually led to my arresting Russell), habitually speed etc.  The licensing process attempts to keep them off the roads by having the requirement that everyone needs one to drive, and when you lose your license you lose your privilege to drive that 2000lb hunk of steel on the roads.  The consequences of getting caught driving without a license, or on a suspended license, deter most of those dangerous drivers, in my experience.  And keeps them from driving, and endangering you and me.

"No victim, no crime," is what is thrown at me now, and I say again, there's never a victim until BAM, people burn to death or are maimed for life, or just have their car wrecked.  Everyone says "Wow, what a bummer," but usually it's not your wife who's dead, or your seven year old daughter who is decapitated by a drunk driver (exaggeration?  Here's the link: http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/05/29/o.lifesaving.lesson/index.html ). 

Now, I don't agree with suspending people's licenses for non-payment of child support, or for blowing through an EasyPass toll gate.  But I do support the basic premise, and purpose, behind the driver's licensing system.  Because of that, I do not let people just drive off when I know they're suspended.  While I have given many people breaks for a joint or baggie of dope or pot pipe, I have not for driving suspended.

Russell's account of his arrest was quite accurate.  He's a good man and I've yet to find him being dishonest or trying to bullshit, even when it might benefit him.  This is what happened through from my viewpoint:   Two of my officers had stopped a motorcyclist for slaloming through traffic, in the oncoming lane, at over a hundred miles per hour.  Some of you will say "Where's the problem?"  We saw a problem and addressed it.  We managed to stop him on West Street at Base Hill Road, where the Country Club is.  As the Shift Commander I went over to offer my assistance, and found that my two units and the motorcycle were filling most of a lane, so I got out to help traffic around.  As I was doing so, Russell drove up and stopped at the stop sign, I immediately saw that was him.  I was sure his license was suspended (because it has been since I've known him and he's repeatedly told me and others he doesn't need a license to drive), so I walked over to him.  He was smiling, and asked me what was going on.  I told him, and told him to pull over near where the motorcycle was, and he did.  He got out, there was some discussion about his license, and I asked why, if he was paying California the child support stuff, they couldn't reinstate his license?  I think he said something about it would take months for them to do that.  His license was confirmed as suspended, and we arrested him.  A tow truck had been requested for Russell's car, but he asked if Kat could just take it, I said sure and cancelled the tow.

At the PD, Russell was cooperative and agreed to be bailed.  However, a closer check of his motor vehicle record indicated that this current charge would only be a violation, so I told my officer to cancel the Bail Commish for him and just release him on a Summons.

To sum up: I saw Russell driving, knew he was suspended, detained him and double-checked it, and arrested him.  He was processed and released on a Summons.

I will explain, as I have to Russell probably a couple times.  When people rack up enough points on their driving record, they will eventually be declared a Habitual Offender.  When they get arrested for driving again, they will get charged with a felony and will go to jail, most likely for a year.  The courts don't give a rat's ass about anyone's politics, or their opinion of whether they should be required to have a driver's license.  It's the law to have one, and they will put you in jail over it.

As I see it, there's a sizeable portion of the population who would support reform of the drug laws.  That support seems to be growing, and indeed I support that as well.  However, in regards to driver's licensing, I think you will find the vast majority of people support it.

The retort I get to this is "Mob rule."  Fine, but be honest...if the "mob" agreed with your views you wouldn't have a problem with it.

While we're talking about laws and change, I'd like to take this opportunity to discuss just that.  No intent to insult or put you guys down, just my opinions.  I see, as I've said before, many good ideas in this movement, much correct thinking.  I also see disorganization, lack of leadership and a hodgepodge of actions limited to the tactical level (that's the local stuff, like the open-carry litter pickups, copwatch, puppet shows, "I'm gonna drive on my suspended license"  etc.).  In some ways this is good (it's difficult to smash an organization that is as decentralized as you guys, to put it bluntly).  However, tactical actions alone will not affect much change.  You may attract individuals to join your movement from here and there, you may get individuals from within the hoovernment to join you, or at least agree with you on some levels (as I do).   Some tactical actions might attract negative attention from the very citizens you're trying to "wake up," making them think you're a bunch of kooks (even before they check out some of the more, uh, extreme personalities on this forum!).

In order for you guys to affect change (change or eliminate certain laws or whatever), you're going to need the support of the general population, or at least a goodly portion of it.  You just don't have the numbers or support for a "revolution" if that's what you're after.  To think you're just going to rip down the current political structure of this state or the nation is a pipe dream, at least for now.  You should get some people thinking "strategic," which means putting your own reps and senators in the state house, or at least winning many more current ones over to your thinking.  Then you can work to repeal laws to your heart's content.  I suspect once people around the country see "it" working in NH, you may spark efforts in other states, and eventually the nation.  It will take time, and effort.  And if eventually it is legal for Russell to drive around with no license, and with a huge doobie hanging on his lip, I'll be more than happy to wave to him as he drives on by.

Lastly, for the three of you who have listened to this point, I came to this forum looking for neither "buddies" nor the subversion of your cause.  I came because I agree with many of your views, and I thought that communication (I called it détente earlier) could only benefit us all.

Enjoy your weekend, I'm going camping.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: hook on May 30, 2008, 10:18 PM NHFT
Did you get a fire permit?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Jim Johnson on May 30, 2008, 10:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: hook on May 30, 2008, 10:18 PM NHFT
Did you get a fire permit?

He doesn't have to... he can flash his badge.

He doesn't have to worry if he has a tail light out or if he speeds or even if he camps in the wrong spot... he's a cop.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Jitgos on May 30, 2008, 10:25 PM NHFT
Political action is being taken by many. It's just not discussed too much on this forum. Check out the forum on http://nhliberty.org (http://nhliberty.org). Dennis Goddard called into Free Talk Live last night and talked about the great success the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance is having. On their yearly report card of representatives usually they find 2 rated A and this year there's ~18 or so. That's not verbatim, but is the gist of what he said. In other words many more reps voted pro liberty this year due at least in part to the new activism. One hundred volunteers reviewed every single bill this year and gave it a liberty rating and then papers with the NHLA recommendations where handed out at the state house. This is the only organization is the country (world?) doing this. So the political side is very very active. In fact it's unprecedented in modern times.

As far as being disorganized. It's nearly impossible to organize libertarians on any massive level. It's the antithesis of libertarian/voluntaryist thought to believe that a top down, bureaucratic structure is the most effective. Each person will do there own thing including organizing at times with others. But I reject the notion that there's an "us". That's just not the way it is. I agree that some things people do may not be strategically beneficial. There will certainly be people who do things that I personally disagree with and vice versa. But when person A does something you don't like you should not see person B on the street and paint B with that same brush. Not that you do, but it's common to want to try and group people and not look at each person individually. I'm sure people do that with cops. It's not just or fair in most circumstances.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on May 30, 2008, 10:33 PM NHFT
I guess he doesn't even realize how drippingly
smug he comes across.

I guess when a man enforces his  "views"
at gun point with a gang for back up it is
just inevitable.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: hook on May 30, 2008, 10:36 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jeremy Couch on May 30, 2008, 10:25 PM NHFT
Political action is being taken by many. It's just not discussed too much on this forum. Check out the forum on http://nhliberty.org (http://nhliberty.org). Dennis Goddard called into Free Talk Live last night and talked about the great success the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance is having. On their yearly report card of representatives usually they find 2 rated A and this year there's ~18 or so. That's not verbatim, but is the gist of what he said. In other words many more reps voted pro liberty this year due at least in part to the new activism. One hundred volunteers reviewed every single bill this year and gave it a liberty rating and then papers with the NHLA recommendations where handed out at the state house. This is the only organization is the country (world?) doing this. So the political side is very very active. In fact it's unprecedented in modern times.

As far as being disorganized. It's nearly impossible to organize libertarians on any massive level. It's the antithesis of libertarian/voluntaryist thought to believe that a top down, bureaucratic structure is the most effective. Each person will do there own thing including organizing at times with others. But I reject the notion that there's an "us". That's just not the way it is. I agree that some things people do may not be strategically beneficial. There will certainly be people who do things that I personally disagree with and vice versa. But when person A does something you don't like you should not see person B on the street and paint B with that same brush. Not that you do, but it's common to want to try and group people and not look at each person individually. I'm sure people do that with cops. It's not just or fair in most circumstances.

Shane Maxfield is correct in his assessment of the political atmosphere for the driver license issue, its a non-starter. Most people have been brainwashed into thinking along the scenarios he outlines, fiery chaos, death and spilled milk.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 30, 2008, 10:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on May 30, 2008, 10:33 PM NHFT
I guess he doesn't even realize how drippingly
smug he comes across.

I guess when a man enforces his  "views"
at gun point with a gang for back up it is
just inevitable.

smug..yeah..and thats being nice Pat.

a smug thug with an ugly mug.

btw Shame thats a pretty nice place you live in, buddy.  ;)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Coconut on May 30, 2008, 10:42 PM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
In order for you guys to affect change (change or eliminate certain laws or whatever), you're going to need the support of the general population, or at least a goodly portion of it.  You just don't have the numbers or support for a "revolution" if that's what you're after.  To think you're just going to rip down the current political structure of this state or the nation is a pipe dream, at least for now.  You should get some people thinking "strategic," which means putting your own reps and senators in the state house, or at least winning many more current ones over to your thinking.  Then you can work to repeal laws to your heart's content.  I suspect once people around the country see "it" working in NH, you may spark efforts in other states, and eventually the nation.  It will take time, and effort.  And if eventually it is legal for Russell to drive around with no license, and with a huge doobie hanging on his lip, I'll be more than happy to wave to him as he drives on by.

Changes by the system have been tried. It's impossible to change a system by their rules. Too many Ron Paul supporters at a republican convention? Just postpone the convention. This isn't about changing "laws." Laws are words on paper. Be them your words, or my words, or the words of a group of "representatives," they're from humans, and have no moral or logical authority over any other humans. It's not even as much about changing minds. The majority of the country is politically apathetic, so from that standpoint, we already have the minds of millions of people who hate politics.

This is about changing actions, or specifically shows of force. I want Keene to be the place where we drive unregistered, unlicensed, and safely. I want it to be the place where humans break from their "just following the system" routine and treat each other as equals. We've changed, ever so slightly, the actions of Keene judges who choose to not levy fines against people who blatantly walk into a courtroom saying "I will not pay." I pray for the day that you see Mr. Kanning, or any other unlicensed driver, and wave to him because you know he's safe, and you choose right over wrong.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Becky Thatcher on May 30, 2008, 11:30 PM NHFT
Russell,

I just saw this post today.  Glad you are out enjoying the beautiful day.  :)


Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
First, some background.  I have outlined, in detail to Lauren and more basically in these forums, my views on the "Driver's License" concept.  Call them "papers" if it makes you feel better, but whatever you call them, they are NOT a requirement to live in this country, not even to travel.  However, if you want to be in control of a car, you need a license.  The reasoning behind this is simple: there are lots of people out there who regularly endanger the rest of us (and our families).  Whether they routinely drive drunk, drive recklessly (like the motorcyclist from the other day who initiated the events that eventually led to my arresting Russell), habitually speed etc.  The licensing process attempts to keep them off the roads by having the requirement that everyone needs one to drive, and when you lose your license you lose your privilege to drive that 2000lb hunk of steel on the roads.

Shane,

I just have a couple questions for you.  You say the Driver's License is what keeps unsafe drivers off the road, and not having one means you are an unsafe driver.  Here are my questions.

How was Russell driving?  (I've seen him drive, he's one of the safest drivers I know.)  If the only traffic law he was breaking was the lack of Gov't ID, how does that make him an unsafe driver?

Did the motorcyclist have a driver's license?

Almost every accident I have seen, or been involved in, has involved licensed drivers.  I think we would all have to agree that having a DL does not necessarily equal competence.

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on May 30, 2008, 11:33 PM NHFT
thanks for doing such a great job maxwell smart i feel much safer now that russell has been scolded for having the gall to drive and conduct his life without the proper paper work the govt. forces us to get or run the risk of some gung ho jack booted thug who didn't get laid and wants to take it out on the nearest law breaker, who would dare drive a safe vehicle around me and my family.people rarely change and a tigers stripes never do, cops lie russell does'nt . The people who feel that they can break the laws are the people making & enforcing the laws. which i have witnessed time and time again.Russell would never pretend to be your friend while plotting how he could  wreck your day and future days hope your happy max. someone who probably deserves to get arrested probably didn't  due to the fact that, that scofflaw russell was driving without his papers ,imagine if we didn't live in a free country?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: David on May 31, 2008, 12:00 AM NHFT
Shane, by your logic, because Russell 'might' hurt somebody, the police have the right to 'garantee' hurting somebody.  That is exactly what you do. 

That is why so much of the country has turned against the police to the extent that they have.  You don't believe we are the only ones that don't like the police, do you?  In downtown columbus ohio, they are calling the police and taking potshots at them when they arive.  In much of the country there is open hostility towards the police.  Go to NY if you don't believe me, or cincinatti, or cleveland, or canton ohio.  Canton ohio is smaller than manchester, it has some problems.  It's prolly already in manchester.  It is comming here. 

The violence isn't going to be us, we are harmless.  The violence is going to be the drug cartels and their many many customers, who are angry as all get out that the police have the nerve to interfere in their otherwise peaceful (usually) exchange.  This is the conflict I write of in my signiture line. 

Large black markets can almost never be crushed.  The soviets couldn't do it, the mexican military can't do it, Keene pd isn't going to be able to do it. 
I remember about a year ago or so, the paper said the keene pd did an investigation that lasted 6 months, and all you got was a handful of arrests.  That market vacumn was prolly filled within a couple of weeks. 

You can bet money if you guys ever arrest me, I will spend my time in jail trying to organize and focus some of the anger the inmates have towards positive activism. 
It is time for you guys to stop destroying lives. 
Or, you can keep wasting time with drivers licenses.   ::)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on May 31, 2008, 12:42 AM NHFT
in the last month i have traveled 8,000 miles from coast to coast and up & down west coast talking to as many as will talk to me & give them a copy of nh free press.Mostly what i would ask is  how they feel about this goobermint and cops. most are afraid of the pd's and most feel the govt. is dishonest and robbing us blind if things keep going the way they are i see a real revolution with the whole us not just NH. what will it take before we all get on the same track and do to the govt. what they have been doing to us longer than i have been alive. if we actually cared so much about freedom we would be in africa not iraq.
                             FREE RUSSELL KANNING
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 31, 2008, 04:21 AM NHFT
LOL@Maxwell Smart!

good one jose!

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on May 31, 2008, 06:12 AM NHFT
 ::)  would you believe the case was solved by the brighest minds in law enforcement?  NO
would you believe it was solved by a retired off duty security guard half blind and deaf with a sling shot and a 15 year old pug with a bladder problem.? yes
just as i suspected 007
without rats law enforcement is blind
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 31, 2008, 08:42 AM NHFT
On licensing:

Private road owners and auto/road insurers would have incentive to certify drivers and restrict them as necessary.  Safe roads are important.

As a former professional driver, Russell could easily pass certification.

If he chose to get one from a recognized area driving school, that should be more than sufficient to satisfy any competency concerns the police have with him.

Shane, would you arrest him if he was privately certified?  If yes, you are not protecting anyone, but acting as a govt revenue enforcer.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on May 31, 2008, 09:13 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 30, 2008, 11:51 AM NHFT
I haven't been fighting the government too much ... I just lack some of their paperwork. I just didn't used to get pulled over.

Psst! Russell!

(http://www.zymetrical.com/images/products/groucho.gif)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 31, 2008, 09:28 AM NHFT
ROFL, Lloyd  ;D
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: feralfae on May 31, 2008, 10:10 AM NHFT
Shane,
You know Russell, and  you know he is not a danger to anyone on the roads, therefore, all your "dangerous driver" excuses hold no water.
One question:
knowing that someone is a safe driver, and not a menace to anyone, or a danger to anyone, and also knowing that you have discretion to arrest and ticket or not arrest and ticket, as you set forth in your prior post, what grounds do you use to justify your arrest of Russell, if not the caprice that all armed agents use to exercise their authority in an arbitrary manner against innocent, harmless, peaceful people?

Just wondering how you justify arresting Russell, not to mention sleeping well at night.

Oh, that's right - your masters pay you to do what you did to Russell, so I guess that is justification enough, right?

You sound a pretty decent chap - did you ever think of resigning from living on stolen funds and getting honest work?
ff


Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 31, 2008, 10:21 AM NHFT
Especially since what the police had been just doing was engaging in some high speed chase of a guy - quite dangerous to the rest of us.  If the police hadn't been chasing the guy, he wouldn't have been "running".  The cop that actually took Russell in said he'd been in a high speed chase in the same area recently and had run into a building.  ::)  We'd be safer with the cops off the road and Russell on it, without a doubt.  Now that I think about it, this would make a good article for the paper - how the police endanger us.  It'd have to be a long article.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Jitgos on May 31, 2008, 10:30 AM NHFT
"How the police endanger us?" Perfect addition to the paper. Sounds like a never ending series or permanent section to me.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on May 31, 2008, 10:39 AM NHFT
Permanent section...good idea!
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 31, 2008, 10:56 AM NHFT
Awesome idea Kat...

and yeah they are The Keene-stone Cops for sure running around like the idiot cops in The Duke of Hazard TV show or the brainless cops in Smokey and The Bandit. Its a damn circus show to watch them and very troubling when they injure or kill innocent folks.

This Shane loser is in another world. Just read his dumbass explanation of why he busted Russell. He doesn't even realize how stupid he looks by trying to justify his actions. What pisses me off is that the jackoff started posting on this forum with a so-called intent to "make things better".  I hope folks will realize that scumbags like him are just your everyday "typical cop".

IMO, I'd rather deal with a cop who is a prick from the get-go, instead of dealing with one who is pretending to be a "friend".

I wonder when was the last time he took a drug test. He's a hot potato, pretty unstable and unpredictable. Hmm. 

Kola 
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Giggan on May 31, 2008, 11:06 AM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
The retort I get to this is "Mob rule."  Fine, but be honest...if the "mob" agreed with your views you wouldn't have a problem with it.

But herein lies the difference between your typical sheep of a human and someone from the liberty community. We all on this board hold drastically different views, beliefs, and morals. Yet we all agree on one thing, that the individual's protection from infringement on those views outweighs ours fears and oppositions to those views. The liberty community has transcended the idea of struggling to agree with people and instead agrees to disagree. This is historically the only peaceful solution to conflict. It's not about getting the mob behind your side, its about dissolving the mob into individuals again.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat McCotter on May 31, 2008, 11:15 AM NHFT
Quote from: giggan on May 31, 2008, 11:06 AM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
The retort I get to this is "Mob rule."  Fine, but be honest...if the "mob" agreed with your views you wouldn't have a problem with it.

But herein lies the difference between your typical sheep of a human and someone from the liberty community. We all on this board hold drastically different views, beliefs, and morals. Yet we all agree on one thing, that the individual's protection from infringement on those views outweighs ours fears and oppositions to those views. The liberty community has transcended the idea of struggling to agree with people and instead agrees to disagree. This is historically the only peaceful solution to conflict. It's not about getting the mob behind your side, its about dissolving the mob into individuals again.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 31, 2008, 11:34 AM NHFT
Yes Giggan... and this is where Shanes World cannot understand our reasoning.

And even when presented to him he won't acknowledge it. He likes his job as a schoolyard bully and he will lie, steal and cheat to convince himself and others that what he does is warrented and right. 

Kola

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on May 31, 2008, 12:12 PM NHFT
giggan seems to be wise for his age. were you homeschooled?
loyd that disguise kicks ass.
i'd bet the last hair on my bald head that russell has more otr experience than any copper on this forum. and could probably drive circles around them without there stinking govt. papers, bunch a nazis
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 12:16 PM NHFT
I don't drive fast like they do.
It is all about the piece of paper .... the main way the government controls people is through the drivers license.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Giggan on May 31, 2008, 12:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: jose on May 31, 2008, 12:12 PM NHFT
giggan seems to be wise for his age. were you homeschooled?

Thank you, and no, I suffered my educational internment at Concord High School. I'm a former go with the flow Republican, and woke up my first year of college. Not from college though, through interacting with free staters.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Lex on May 31, 2008, 03:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
First, some background.  I have outlined, in detail to Lauren and more basically in these forums, my views on the "Driver's License" concept.  Call them "papers" if it makes you feel better, but whatever you call them, they are NOT a requirement to live in this country, not even to travel.  However, if you want to be in control of a car, you need a license.  The reasoning behind this is simple: there are lots of people out there who regularly endanger the rest of us (and our families).  Whether they routinely drive drunk, drive recklessly (like the motorcyclist from the other day who initiated the events that eventually led to my arresting Russell), habitually speed etc.  The licensing process attempts to keep them off the roads by having the requirement that everyone needs one to drive, and when you lose your license you lose your privilege to drive that 2000lb hunk of steel on the roads.  The consequences of getting caught driving without a license, or on a suspended license, deter most of those dangerous drivers, in my experience.  And keeps them from driving, and endangering you and me.

But Russell didn't need a license to be arrested. So, if someone is driving dangerously and you pull them over, what difference does it make if they have a license or not? You arrest them and fine them and depending on how bad the situation was throw them in jail? I don't see how this has anything to do with licensing. If someone gets a drivers license legally and then goes out drinking and drives home, the license didn't stop this situation. You STILL have to have a BAM in order to prevent other, future, BAMs from occuring. The licensed drunk driver would have had to swerve on the road or run a light/stop sign or hit a mailbox, etc.

I've never known people to worry about losing their license for driving dangerously, they are almost always worried about being pulled over (the outcome of being pulled over can be losing of license, but doesn't have to be and again that is not the initial fear). So, if being pulled over is the fear that keeps people from speeding or driving drunk then the license is marginally useful and costs more to maintain than the benefits it provides (the only benefit I can think of is as an ID).

As a police officer how can you know if someone driving has a drivers license? You have to pull them over first and ask them! So, unless you can tell if a driver of a car is license or not, I cannot honestly accept your argument that the only reason people drive safely is because they are afraid to lose their license. In my opinion they drive safely because:

1) They don't want to get pulled over:
  1a) If they have insurance, their premium may go up.
  1b) Some people can lose their job if they get so many tickets.
  1c) They have to PAY A FINE.
  1d) Their time is wasted, they could have reached their destination in the 15 or so minutes that it takes to be stopped.
2) They don't want to die! Some people actually drive safely because they think ItsAGoodIdea(TM)
3) They don't want to damage their car. Especially if they don't have insurance.

It would be interesting if someone did a poll on this but I have a pretty strong hunch that losing your license is all the way at the bottom of the list for most people and that the things I listed above are much more common reasons for people not going 100mph in the opposite lane.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: highline on May 31, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 31, 2008, 08:42 AM NHFT
Shane, would you arrest him if he was privately certified?  If yes, you are not protecting anyone, but acting as a govt revenue enforcer.

Ian, I would like to answer this question.  You know I respect you a great deal and as a daily listener to your show I have you and Mark to credit with my becoming so very educated on issues of liberty.

If I caught Russell driving under suspension but was privately certified - indeed I would arrest him.  If I caught him smoking a joint - indeed I would arrest him for that.  That is current policy and neither Lt. Maxfield or I have the authority to simply substitute our judgment for the judgment of the policy makers.  In my off time I will fight tooth and nail to enhance liberty, even at my own peril.

Now- a few of you (not you Ian, you have been an ambassador of good will for this) (kola in particular) are really starting to attack Lt. Maxfield in an inappropriate manner.  This is just absurd.  Both he and I understand the "mob" argument and the "point of a gun" argument.  Did you specific people not see me testify publicly about why the Marijuana laws are unjust?  I said on the record and ON VIDEO that government is enforced by the point of a gun.  I have made myself very unpopular with some in my profession because I believe in standing up for what is right.  I hear quite frequently negative comments about myself made by those within my profession for the activism I engage in.  I have been referred to (in a derogatory manner) many times as a "free stater."  I do not doubt for a minute that there are people talking negatively about Lt. Maxfield for his willingness to interact here with people that most in law enforcement would not even give the time of day. 

Speaking for myself: I am here because I would like to foster good relations and understanding between those who work within the system and those who want the system changed or abolished altogether.  Coming here and posting and interacting with folks here I do knowing full well that many in law enforcement are critiquing what I am writing.  Not a day goes by that I do not hear some sort of comment about my involvement with the "free staters."  I have been trying very hard to be an "ambassador" to teach those in law enforcement (as Lt. Maxfield has been) what the FSP is all about. 

I simply will not tolerate people like Kola being tolerated.

Kola: I find your post, which I view as a subtle threat regarding the Lt's home as completely inappropriate. 

Kat/Russell:  I request that you please ban Kola for his threatening actions and for being such an antagonist to productive conversation and interaction. 

If you do not feel it necessary to ban Kola for acting in this manner - then please ban me.  I have come to this board to offer my knowledge of the law and to be available to debate issues with people in an equal and open environment.  Should you not ban him for his actions, I personally will view it as you tacitly supporting him, and will remove myself from your board.

Should that be the case you can subtract my name from the list of TWO people in law enforcement that I am aware of (including me) who have been vocal supporters and allies of the a-political wing of the FSP.

Respectfully,

Bradley
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 31, 2008, 04:47 PM NHFT
brad,

what u say

and what u do

are total opposites.

your actions make u the hypocritical thug that u are.

you make a fool of yourself by commenting about such nonsense.


so tell me brad, r u going to arrest Ian next time you see him driving?

kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 31, 2008, 04:53 PM NHFT
QuoteKola: I find your post, which I view as a subtle threat regarding the Lt's home as completely inappropriate. 

Listen boy...your scumbag buddy mad max dug into my personal shit first. I have enough contacts as you do, maybe even more. Home address, tel numbers and personal info is all public records are open for all. You oinkers think you can do it and that we have to accept it, but when it gets turned around on yous, you feel violated. Too damn bad.... get used to it because the more you push the more I will shove.

welcome to payback time.

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:03 PM NHFT
QuoteKat/Russell:  I request that you please ban Kola for his threatening actions and for being such an antagonist to productive conversation and interaction. 

when a cop is pinned into a corner this is how they act. They try and twist things and use "threat" as if they are in some type of danger. What a classic example huh? This is the way to get away with murdering people... or when they want to beat the shit out of someone they say you were "resisting arrest"

Brad, your sniveling is a last ditch effort because you do not like taking any shit, you'd rather give it, thus this frustrates you. Usually your intimidation makes folks back down but sorry pal, you don't pull that on me.

"Threatening actions" huh?
Be careful or I will file a complaint against you and Shame. I have all your comments filed.

have a nice day,
Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: highline on May 31, 2008, 05:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 31, 2008, 04:53 PM NHFT
QuoteKola: I find your post, which I view as a subtle threat regarding the Lt's home as completely inappropriate. 

Listen boy...your scumbag buddy mad max dug into my personal shit first. I have enough contacts as you do, maybe even more. Home address, tel numbers and personal info is all public records are open for all. You oinkers think you can do it and that we have to accept it, but when it gets turned around on yous, you feel violated. Too damn bad.... get used to it because the more you push the more I will shove.

welcome to payback time.

Kola

I do not care if you post my address for all to see.  I do not recall Lt. Maxfield ever making a comment like you did. 

Tell you what, give me a call.  603-205-3181...  Perhaps we can discuss this as men do and come to a better understanding.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:07 PM NHFT
I am sure you are quite aware that he did a backround check on me.

Call you? LOL. more intimidation? Why would I want to speak with you? I dislike you. I do not have tp prove that I am a man. Maybe you somehow do, if thats whats up yur ass.

If you can't take the heat here, leave. or just click me on ignore.

But this bothers you doesn't it? .. because you do not like it when someone gets in your face (so to speak). Its hard pill to swallow huh?

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: highline on May 31, 2008, 05:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:03 PM NHFT
Quote
"Threatening actions" huh?
Be careful or I will file a complaint against you and Shame. I have all your comments filed.

You know exactly the context of the message when you sent it.

A complaint?  Be my guest.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: highline on May 31, 2008, 05:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:07 PM NHFT
I am sure you are quite aware that he did a backround check on me.

Kola

I did not know that.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:24 PM NHFT
What burns my butt is that you 2 goons come on this forum and talk "liberty" and "good cop" and then Shame on Maxfield goes and busts Russell. Thats the kicker and why I am displeased with both of you..and it only proves my statemant that there are NO good cops.

but your ego can't even move out of the way for a second to let that one sink in.

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: highline on May 31, 2008, 05:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:24 PM NHFT
What burns my butt is that you 2 goons come on this forum and talk "liberty" and "good cop" and then Shame on Maxfield goes and busts Russell. Thats the kicker and why I am displeased with both of you..and it only proves my statemant that there are NO good cops.

but your ego can't even move out of the way for a second to let that one sink in.

Kola

Kola,

Do you think its possible for there to be good cops who enforce current policies but strive to change them?

And also, if Lt. Maxfield posted a message about you in the same context as you did I would feel the same way.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat McCotter on May 31, 2008, 05:45 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 05:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:24 PM NHFT
What burns my butt is that you 2 goons come on this forum and talk "liberty" and "good cop" and then Shame on Maxfield goes and busts Russell. Thats the kicker and why I am displeased with both of you..and it only proves my statemant that there are NO good cops.

but your ego can't even move out of the way for a second to let that one sink in.

Kola

Kola,

Do you think its possible for there to be good cops who enforce current policies but strive to change them?

And also, if Lt. Maxfield posted a message about you in the same context as you did I would feel the same way.

This is what kola is referring to.

Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 20, 2008, 10:12 PM NHFT
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on May 20, 2008, 09:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 20, 2008, 09:02 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 20, 2008, 08:31 PM NHFT
ND..initials are the LEO lingo. 10-4 rubber-ducky too.

is that your meanface avatar, Shane?

its not very appealing IMO. nor is it scarey..if thats what you think.

you don't look happy....it must be the job you do.

Kola
Sounds like you need to unplug, Atlas, and go for a relaxing walk.  Might make you a little less angry.


So kola, since Shane knows what Atlas means, why don't you let us know what Atlas means?... so we can know if Shane is doing background checks.

Wow, you guys give me too much credit...Shane knows Koala from another forum where he's Atlas, but there he acts a bit less like a 4th grader.  He's just sloppy, kind of like Hansel and Gretel using whole bagels instead of bread crumbs.  Any third grader who can Google could do it.

Sounds like he's a little bit paranoid...there may be a big secret "file" on him, but I don't have access to anything like that (I'm in Keene, NH folks) nor the desire to look into it if I did.  I'd be prohibited from using any "official" records anyway, since this is just a darn chat room for heavens sake.  No doubt there's plenty of public access stuff if one put a mind to it.

"Mmmmmm....chem trails." - Homer Simpson

And kola's answer regarding it.
Quote from: kola on May 20, 2008, 09:33 PM NHFT
LOL!

youre the one with the sourpuss. I'm smilin' oinky... you look like a wifebeater. most cops are.

and btw call me Kirk if that makes ya feel more powerful.

your backround check of me is not intimidating.

it just shows your ignorance and true colors.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 05:46 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
If I caught Russell driving under suspension but was privately certified - indeed I would arrest him.  If I caught him smoking a joint - indeed I would arrest him for that.  That is current policy and neither Lt. Maxfield or I have the authority to simply substitute our judgment for the judgment of the policy makers.  In my off time I will fight tooth and nail to enhance liberty, even at my own peril.
When I got this far .... I was thinking that I should put the cops on ignore so I don't have to see the doublespeak.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 05:50 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
Now- a few of you (not you Ian, you have been an ambassador of good will for this) (kola in particular) are really starting to attack Lt. Maxfield in an inappropriate manner.  This is just absurd.
inappropriate?
I guess you are used to getting your way at your job. Sometimes you get attacked online.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 05:58 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
I simply will not tolerate people like Kola being tolerated.
:hopmad:
What do you plan on doing about it?

I have had Kola on ignore for a while now (he seemed to be counting heads on who would join him in the violent revolution ... so I decided I didn't need to read his posts anymore). You could do the same and pretend he doesn't exist. He lives in Colorado and has no plans to move here and join our movement.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 06:07 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
Kat/Russell:  I request that you please ban Kola for his threatening actions and for being such an antagonist to productive conversation and interaction. 
nah
If some guy in a TeePee in the Rockies is telling cops they should quit their jobs .... who am I to stop him? :)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 06:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
If you do not feel it necessary to ban Kola for acting in this manner - then please ban me.  I have come to this board to offer my knowledge of the law and to be available to debate issues with people in an equal and open environment.  Should you not ban him for his actions, I personally will view it as you tacitly supporting him, and will remove myself from your board.
I have tolerated Kola.
I have tolerated you.

Now you are asking me to choose .... I think I will pass and let you choose.

If you would like to interact with Freestaters ... there are many other forums ... you might even be treated better than here.
If you would like to discuss things with Ian and other nice guys in Keene ... you might like the FreeKeene forum.

We do not make special exceptions for government workers on this forum ... in fact we ask them to quit enforcing bad laws and taking money from an organization that steals.

We are not good examples of the liberty community in NH or the FSP. We are Shire Folk. Some people agree with us and hang out on our forum. Some people hang out who don't agree with us.

When people complain about our forum, we usually do not follow their wishes. Sometimes the ideas are good and we use them.

I did not ask you or Kola to join this forum. I do not want to arbitrate between you two. You can sort it out in your own way. You can hang out here, if you can stand that Kola is also allowed to post here. :)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on May 31, 2008, 06:47 PM NHFT
Come on over to the FTL message board, Highline. We're...lively...over there.  ;)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: highline on May 31, 2008, 06:49 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 06:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
If you do not feel it necessary to ban Kola for acting in this manner - then please ban me.  I have come to this board to offer my knowledge of the law and to be available to debate issues with people in an equal and open environment.  Should you not ban him for his actions, I personally will view it as you tacitly supporting him, and will remove myself from your board.
I have tolerated Kola.
I have tolerated you.

Now you are asking me to choose .... I think I will pass and let you choose.

If you would like to interact with Freestaters ... there are many other forums ... you might even be treated better than here.
If you would like to discuss things with Ian and other nice guys in Keene ... you might like the FreeKeene forum.

We do not make special exceptions for government workers on this forum ... in fact we ask them to quit enforcing bad laws and taking money from an organization that steals.

We are not good examples of the liberty community in NH or the FSP. We are Shire Folk. Some people agree with us and hang out on our forum. Some people hang out who don't agree with us.

When people complain about our forum, we usually do not follow their wishes. Sometimes the ideas are good and we use them.

I did not ask you or Kola to join this forum. I do not want to arbitrate between you two. You can sort it out in your own way. You can hang out here, if you can stand that Kola is also allowed to post here. :)

To Russell: That is a very fair response.  I agree that I was out-of-line in my reaction and I apologize to you for it.

To Kola: Although I believe your post was unnecessarily threatening in nature - I do apologize for over reacting in your direction.  I am human and make mistakes.  I should have been more diplomatic in my expression of displeasure and should not have sent that message.  If anything, I should have PM'd you to express my concerns.

Will not happen again.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Free libertarian on May 31, 2008, 07:57 PM NHFT
  While it might not mean much to anybody, my opinion is Highline and Kola should both stay on this forum
and maybe take a step back and cool off. I like Russell's response about not being an arbitrator, you guys are both grown men, take a bit of time to mellow and realize while you have your differences, beating each other up won't accomplish anything but give us in the peanut gallery cheap entertainment.
You guys are both too smart for that I hope.
.  
Highline, thank you for working on liberty oriented stuff while on your time.  I'd love to see more cops coming out and questioning laws and giving favorable testimony, I appreciate that you do that.  What I am unable to comprehend and have a hard time with is... If a law is "wrong" and you know it to be so how do you justify enforcing it?  That would eat me up.  If you can conceive that certain laws make no sense, enough that you speak out against them on "your time"  how come you can't see that by enforcing them you are enabling a fraudulent system? If you know on some level the laws are stupid, yet you feel an obligation to enforce them you are well indoctrinated and I hope you can overcome that at some point...maybe even reconsider your line of work.  When you enforce certain laws, you aren't "protecting" anybody, in fact you become the aggressor. The legality of a police action doesn't make it morally right. Somewhere you probably know that, but for the time being have chosen the paycheck over principle.      

Maybe by working within the system as a cop you can help on some liberty issues, I hope so and again thank you for that effort.  You might not be able to publically say this so I will ...If there's any "good cop" they would look the other way when the opportunity presents itself to enforce a stupid law. I hope you are that kind of cop even if you feel you can't admit it for political reasons.  At  the very least I would not "see" alot of things,  if that makes someone a bad cop by the book but a good human being. Which is better?

 
 
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: highline on May 31, 2008, 08:13 PM NHFT
Free L,

Thank you very much. As I said in my other post I believe my reaction was far too harsh and I accordingly apologized to Kola. I regret reacting that way.

I believe that his subtle threat and insulting messages towards Lt. Maxfield are out of line and as someone who has been putting lots of effort towards building a bridge between police and those who generally dislike us I take personally.

Call me sometime, I'd love to debate the other part of your message!
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 08:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: Free libertarian on May 31, 2008, 07:57 PM NHFT
 While it might not mean much to anybody, my opinion is Highline and Kola should both stay on this forum
and maybe take a step back and cool off. I like Russell's response about not being an arbitrator, you guys are both grown men, take a bit of time to mellow and realize while you have your differences, beating each other up won't accomplish anything but give us in the peanut gallery cheap entertainment.  
yea .... and I want my thread back ;D
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on May 31, 2008, 09:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on May 31, 2008, 08:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: Free libertarian on May 31, 2008, 07:57 PM NHFT
 While it might not mean much to anybody, my opinion is Highline and Kola should both stay on this forum
and maybe take a step back and cool off. I like Russell's response about not being an arbitrator, you guys are both grown men, take a bit of time to mellow and realize while you have your differences, beating each other up won't accomplish anything but give us in the peanut gallery cheap entertainment.  
yea .... and I want my thread back ;D

(http://www.lakewoodconferences.com/direct/dbimage/50296650/100__Polyester_Sewing_Thread.jpg)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: highline on May 31, 2008, 09:21 PM NHFT
lol. it took my polish brain a few seconds to figure that one out.  8)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: MengerFan on May 31, 2008, 09:24 PM NHFT
Cool. Now if you can figure out the one where you shouldn't point guns at people who aren't hurting anyone, you'll be all set.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Caleb on May 31, 2008, 09:28 PM NHFT
Highline, can I ask you a question without trying to be too confrontational?

You say, "well, I may not like the drug law. But as an officer, I will enforce it. Then I will work to get the law changed."  Do you think this is a very good way of approaching life? I will do something I know to be wrong because someone else gave me orders to do so?

Taken to its extreme, this is a demonstrably ridiculous way of doing things. Imagine conversing with a Nazi, who says this: "Well, I do not think that I should arrest Jews. But it's the law, and I am a soldier who has taken an oath to uphold the law, so I will arrest the Jew. But I will give Hitler a piece of my mind the next time I see him."  Would you be impressed?

What is the point of no more. What is the point of evil that you aren't willing to cross? You know that throwing people in prison for using drugs is evil, but you're willing to do it. Where do you draw that line. Because it seems to me that no one can assail the position of "I refuse to do evil to another person, no matter who tells me to." But you are in a precarious position. I imagine you wouldn't arrest Jews if you were in Nazi Germany, but ... I'm left scratching my head and wondering how much evil you think it is morally acceptable for you to perpetrate.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on May 31, 2008, 10:19 PM NHFT
 :clap: nice job caleb
well said, and my thoughts are the same
first they hijack russell then they highline his thread. typical
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: K. Darien Freeheart on June 01, 2008, 12:04 AM NHFT
Quote from: 'Caleb'What is the point of no more. What is the point of evil that you aren't willing to cross? You know that throwing people in prison for using drugs is evil, but you're willing to do it.

I believe highline very much believes that the war on drugs is the wrong course of action to be taking, but I don't believe he thinks the war on drugs is unethical. I think it rankles at him that it's inefficient and that this inefficiency has human costs.

There's a very distinct difference between that of a libertarian... We say "We're against the drug war" but what we MEAN is "We think it is a fundimental right to be able to shoot heroine." To me, telling me I don't own my body in that way is rape, flat out. "You can't shoot heroine" is as invasive and destructive as forcible rape, since both eliminate my control over my body. The distinction is that we all understand rape to be an unethical and disgusting act where as someone who's pragmatically against the "War on Drugs" may not support a persons right to do drugs.

I beleive it's possible, over time, to illustrate this and when that time comes that realization WILL provoke action. This doesn't however, excuse the victims created before that time.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Giggan on June 01, 2008, 12:31 AM NHFT
In response to Caleb's thread, as much as enforcing any evil is an evil in itself, highline finds himself in a unique position that would not necessarily benefit the liberty movement for him to compromise. LEAP only allows current or former law enforcement to speak for the organization for a number of reasons I'm sure that I'm unaware of, but the biggest one is probably that any one of us can speak out against a bad policy. We can only change so much. As an officer, highline's credentials are not questioned. When speaking for HB1623, they can prejudicially dismiss any citizen speaking as a 'stoner', whether or not they use marijuana, but coming from one who enforces the law, at the very least, our opponents will listen.

For example, this should not be construed to imply that I condone Russell's arrest, but Maxfield could have been an a-hole and had Russell's car towed at his expense. Kola said earlier he'd rather deal with a-hole cops, and some of you may like your tyranny at face value, but having a friend in the system can be of some value.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 01, 2008, 07:27 AM NHFT
and if you wait for the legislators to fix the laws ....

you get guys like Sunununu and Bob Barr voting for the Patriot Act ... and then .... fighting against it later.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 01, 2008, 07:31 AM NHFT
Quote from: Kevin Dean on June 01, 2008, 12:04 AM NHFT
There's a very distinct difference between that of a libertarian... We say "We're against the drug war" but what we MEAN is "We think it is a fundimental right to be able to shoot heroine."
what I mean is:
there is no reason for me to forcibly stop someone from taking heroine
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 01, 2008, 07:35 AM NHFT
Quote from: Giggan on June 01, 2008, 12:31 AM NHFT
In response to Caleb's thread, as much as enforcing any evil is an evil in itself, highline finds himself in a unique position that would not necessarily benefit the liberty movement for him to compromise. LEAP only allows current or former law enforcement to speak for the organization ...
they take former cops :)

I can't imagine keeping my job in the evil government ... so I can be a part of some anti-big-government group.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Ron Helwig on June 01, 2008, 08:42 AM NHFT
Finally getting around to reading this thread.

On the subject of cops accepting private certifications in lieu of gooberment drivers licenses, I would hope that they would do so once a private certification is backed up with responsibility. AFAIK, currently a private certification holds as much weight as a napkin with scribbles on it. If the certifier was held at least partially responsible for the actions of those they certify, then the question of whether or not a cop would accept a private certification would be more relevant.

I too want to know if Maxfield believed that Russell was a potentially dangerous driver (regardless of his possessing a government certificate). Does he feel in any way endangered if he's caught "coddling a known lawbreaker" - as would have been a distinct possibility at the crime scene where there were at least two more cops who would have recognized Russell?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: SamIam on June 01, 2008, 02:00 PM NHFT
Hey Shane I saw this post, and wanted to add my thoughts.

Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
my views on the "Driver's License" concept. . . .they are NOT a requirement to live in this country, not even to travel.  However, if you want to be in control of a car, you need a license. 

The last statement is factually incorrect. There are millions of people around the world who are in control of a car every day without a license from a US state government. I've read your claim to understand the "gun in the room" concept, and I wonder, do you see it in the last sentence? What's factually true is that the gang known as government requires people operating a motor vehicle to get permission, otherwise the the armed men working for the same company will initiate force to ensure compliance. Now let's remember why government was created:

QuoteWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it

I'll assume you think this is a valid document, and that we are not currently remaining under british rule. So government's container is protecting life liberty and happiness. If somebody wants to travel from one area to another, how does it protect their life liberty or happiness by demanding paperwork and kidnapping them only to lock them into a cage, if they don't have permission?


QuoteThe courts don't give a rat's ass about anyone's politics, or their opinion of whether they should be required to have a driver's license.  It's the law to have one, and they will put you in jail over it.

Humm, remembering why government's were established, that doesn't seem to be their purview does it? Here's a question I asked the judge and he refused to answer, Shane, Factually what is the Law?

Let me give you the shortcut answer: Laws are commands issued by your gang which you are willing to back up with violence. Now, if you disagreed with the commands, and found them to be morally reprehensible, would you continue to enforce them? If you say No, then realize that they become YOUR commands, because you yourself believe in the commands (law), and are willing to kill another human being (in the extreme) who simply refuses to obey your commands. Think about this carefully, it's not "they" who are putting people in jail for it, it's you.

QuoteThe retort I get to this is "Mob rule."  Fine, but be honest...if the "mob" agreed with your views you wouldn't have a problem with it.

That's just it, I do have a problem with it, all of it. I do have a problem with using violence to get one's way. I do have a problem with men committing acts of violence and treachery in my name using my money. I do have a problem with with violating the rights of one man for the "need" of another man. Even when I am the benefactor of that "need".

So what options do I have given my belief system (i.e. religion) Shane? Highline? Go back to the Deceleration of Independence. I no longer consent to or wish to be a part of your society, in the same manner and tradition upon which your authority is established, I don't consent to or recognize your authority over me, only your willingness to initiate violence upon me. I'm only in control of me, and if all I can do is create freedom for myself, then so be it. I don't wish to harm others, only to be left alone.

Do you intend to initiate violence upon me, to ensure your society, your views, continue as the "right" ones?

QuoteIn order for you guys to affect change (change or eliminate certain laws or whatever), you're going to need the support of the general population, or at least a goodly portion of it.  You just don't have the numbers or support for a "revolution" if that's what you're after.

I don't wish for a nicer group of tyrants ruling over me with violence, so I seek evolution. People will one day evolve past the need for governments, and realize dealing with others on a voluntary basis is always the optimal solution.



QuoteTo think you're just going to rip down the current political structure of this state or the nation is a pipe dream, at least for now.  You should get some people thinking "strategic," which means putting your own reps and senators in the state house, or at least winning many more current ones over to your thinking.

I don't wish to destroy anything, nor do I wish to take part in harming others by working through government. I seek to educate and enlighten people about these ideas. Once they understand them, they too will choose to embrace them, leaving government to those that wish it. The question is, what are you going to do when we leave your system? How far are you willing to go to be right about your beliefs?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: SamIam on June 01, 2008, 02:49 PM NHFT
Missed one:

QuoteI also see disorganization, lack of leadership and a hodgepodge of actions limited to the tactical level (that's the local stuff, like the open-carry litter pickups, copwatch, puppet shows, "I'm gonna drive on my suspended license"  etc.).  In some ways this is good (it's difficult to smash an organization that is as decentralized as you guys, to put it bluntly).  However, tactical actions alone will not affect much change.  You may attract individuals to join your movement from here and there, you may get individuals from within the hoovernment to join you, or at least agree with you on some levels (as I do).

I'm learning this movement is very different than anything that has happened before, because what we seek, true personal freedom, is an idea that has been obscured for a very long time. This movement won't have organized top down leadership, because that's not what many in it wish to create. Leaders? Oh yes, we have them, Lauren, Mark, Ian, Dave, Russell, David, and others. The movement won't end with a single bullet as it did with MLK. It will take removing 10 leaders, and doing so will only awaken and inspire anther 20. While we may be acting on a local tactical level, we are creating an ever increasing global audience every day through the numerous media outlets also attracted to the Free State. The government has already lost, a voluntary society will come about. The question is really how long do you plan to fight it with indigent righteous? (aka the gun in the room)

Shane, Highline - Thanks again for participating here. It is greatly appreciated by many, myself included. 
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 01, 2008, 04:54 PM NHFT
Russell quoted:
QuoteI have had Kola on ignore for a while now (he seemed to be counting heads on who would join him in the violent revolution .

Russell, Can I ask where your idea came from? Kat mentioned this too. I am not a pacifist (and never will be) nor am I a violent person. I do have and will exercise the right to protect myself and loved ones if threatened.

I have stated on this forum (more than once) that I would rather be left alone AND that I go out of my way to avoid police encounters. I pay my taxes, hold a valid DL and reg and I insure my vehicle. I have no interest of "fighting the system" (with weapons, pens or picket signs) but rather choose to ignore it and live my life as I see fit. It is my opinion that the police force (police states) are not going to go away or become more laxed despite any activist pleas. And you can sure as hell bet it will only get worse. The only thing I want to do is put the furthest amount of distance between my life and the corrupt authorities. This once great country is slowly dying, thats a no-brainer. But yes, a violent revolution is a reality as more and more people become disgusted and frustrated with abusive powers of the ever increasing police states. History repeats itself, so who knows huh? My decision to move to the mountains was to escape the madness. I have no interest to participate in ANY type of fighting.(maybe some online "mind-wrestling" but even that becomes tiresome and an energy drainer). I am too damn old for bullshit games and I choose to enjoy my life the best I can, far away from cop schmucks, corrupt political piggies and all the dead-zombied sheeple who can no longer think for themselves and don't give a shit about TRUE liberty.

At this point in my life, I choose to be an observer. I will watch to see what unfolds. The writings on the wall and its not such a matter of what happens... but when it happens.

A bloody revolution huh? Think about it, seriously. Todays commonfolks are outpowered and most can't even open up a pocketknife. "Militia" groups? You saw where they were for Ed Brown. They are nonexistent and the few who may be around are all talk and fluff. Why do you think Bush signed contracts with other countries armed forces? Any type of grassroot uprising will be snuffed out in a second, media-spun and over without a whimper. OTOH, I never underestimate the will of strong people. The blacks are pretty pissed off and so are the Mexicans. I'd put my money on bigcity riots..if there were going to be any types of "revolutions." And btw, I won't be there. I''ll stay tight in my tipi and sip my brandy.     
I am pretty damn sure of what is going to unfold but the only fighting I will be doing is protecting my property and loved ones when threatened. Then again, I could be long dead before the SHTF. So for now, I will enjoy myself, speak my mind freely and avoid bureaucratic bullshit as much as possible.

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Coconut on June 01, 2008, 06:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 01, 2008, 04:54 PM NHFT
Russell quoted:
QuoteI have had Kola on ignore for a while now (he seemed to be counting heads on who would join him in the violent revolution .

Russell, Can I ask where your idea came from?

Probably not if you're on ignore.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 01, 2008, 06:21 PM NHFT
he reads my posts, coco..they are just too juicy to ignore!  lol

the others play peek-a-boo too.

me too...depending.

Honest Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 02, 2008, 11:27 AM NHFT
Quote from: Coconut on June 01, 2008, 06:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 01, 2008, 04:54 PM NHFT
Russell quoted:
QuoteI have had Kola on ignore for a while now (he seemed to be counting heads on who would join him in the violent revolution .

Russell, Can I ask where your idea came from?

Probably not if you're on ignore.

One of our friends got a PM from kola asking if he could be counted on to join the violent revolution.  Sounds like a fed to me.  Plus he's always trying to get on my good side.  I hate that.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on June 02, 2008, 11:49 AM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 02, 2008, 11:27 AM NHFT
Quote from: Coconut on June 01, 2008, 06:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 01, 2008, 04:54 PM NHFT
Russell quoted:
QuoteI have had Kola on ignore for a while now (he seemed to be counting heads on who would join him in the violent revolution .

Russell, Can I ask where your idea came from?

Probably not if you're on ignore.

One of our friends got a PM from kola asking if he could be counted on to join the violent revolution.  Sounds like a fed to me.  Plus he's always trying to get on my good side.  I hate that.

You have a good side? ;)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 02, 2008, 12:08 PM NHFT
I keep it well hidden  :P
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on June 02, 2008, 12:16 PM NHFT
Quote from: SamIam on June 01, 2008, 02:49 PM NHFT
The government has already lost, a voluntary society will come about. The question is really how long do you plan to fight it with indigent righteous? (aka the gun in the room)


:clap:
Both were excellent posts, Sam.  I wish I could be there for your ride-along.  Having you in the Keene area is going to be super!

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on June 02, 2008, 12:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 02, 2008, 11:27 AM NHFT
One of our friends got a PM from kola asking if he could be counted on to join the violent revolution.  Sounds like a fed to me.  Plus he's always trying to get on my good side.  I hate that.

Kat, I implore you to reduce his karma to at least 0.  (He pumped it up during karma fest.)  It will save some people a lot of work.

It might be neat to have a Suspected Fed membergroup you could put people in.   8)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 02, 2008, 01:08 PM NHFT
QuoteOne of our friends got a PM from kola asking if he could be counted on to join the violent revolution

Interesting.

Complete hogwash.  I think one my "buddies" have been toying around.

wheres this fictitous PM? and will your "friend" reveal their name.

sounds like a nice little railroading game.

I am a fed now too? I will try to stay on your bad side Kat, hows that?

believe what you will.

Kola 
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: SamIam on June 02, 2008, 03:28 PM NHFT
Shane, One more thing for you to think about: (sorry, you make good arguments, and I keep rolling them around in my head)

Quote. . .you need a license.  The reasoning behind this is simple: there are lots of people out there who regularly endanger the rest of us (and our families).  Whether they routinely drive drunk, drive recklessly (like the motorcyclist from the other day who initiated the events that eventually led to my arresting Russell), habitually speed etc.  The licensing process attempts to keep them off the roads by having the requirement that everyone needs one to drive, and when you lose your license you lose your privilege to drive that 2000lb hunk of steel on the roads.

First, understand that the current system, based on results (i.e. the jackass on the motorcycle), is a failure. Not only that, it fails time and time again, as motor vehicle accidents are one of the top 3 killers in North America. So I would go so far to say the current policy is a miserable failure. Not only that, in your attempt to prevent these deadly accidents, you support actions that literally rob the innocent at gunpoint; hundreds of people every day in NH. (not sure how many tickets are issued)

So let's review, hundreds robbed at gunpoint who haven't hurt anyone to prevent a few from dying in preventable accidents, only to very marginally reduce traffic related injuries and fatalities, with the added result of additional violence. How many police officers have been killed in routine traffic stops for non-violent offenses?

It seems to me the current policy is grossly ineffective, and something different should be tried, and I don't mean increased penalties, as that has failed as well. I, along with many others, want safe roads, I want to reduce harm caused by dangerous drivers, I want the some of them taken off the roads, and that can be accomplished in other ways that are much more effective than the current system. One possible solution gets back to the private ownership of roads we have discussed.

The objection I'm hearing from you Shane, is not so much the need for a government controlled drivers license, but a way to transition from where we are today to the optimal system balancing personal freedom and safety of others.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Coconut on June 02, 2008, 03:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: SamIam on June 02, 2008, 03:28 PM NHFT

So let's review, hundreds robbed at gunpoint who haven't hurt anyone to prevent a few from dying in preventable accidents, only to very marginally reduce traffic related injuries and fatalities, with the added result of additional violence.

I drive FAR less safely when I have to watch my speedometer every 5 seconds, as well as the side of the road for cops sitting there.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on June 02, 2008, 04:07 PM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on May 30, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
I also see disorganization, lack of leadership and a hodgepodge of actions limited to the tactical level ... You should get some people thinking "strategic," which means ...

You're not the first person to point this out.

I think the overarching "strategy" that a lot of people are employing is basically the free-market theory: Everyone engages in their own little business, fulfilling their own little desires according to their rational self-interest, and it all tends to work out, with the illusion that there's a sort of "invisible hand" guiding the whole process, but it's really just a bunch of people doing their own thing. Get enough people doing it and it works.

That said, there are plenty of people who actually thing in longer-term strategic terms, but (I think) most of them are engaged in the political process, so you don't see them talk about it on this board.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Vitruvian on June 02, 2008, 04:16 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145That said, there are plenty of people who actually thing in longer-term strategic terms, but (I think) most of them are engaged in the political process, so you don't see them talk about it on this board.

Pardon me for interrupting your conversation with the cop, but I thought this condescension deserved emphasis.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on June 02, 2008, 04:23 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 29, 2008, 09:59 PM NHFT
the only reason him and his muttfriend(highwhiner) came here was to stop the Copwatch program. They fooled a couple people and now there is no more Copwatch huh?

a few got suckered in by their bullshit but the gooncops actions always reveal their true colors. Beware a goon who "acts" friendly. These are the worst ones...backstabbing mofos.

I've known highline in person since at least 2007-11. Besides all of his LEAP- and HB1623-related activism, I've heard him support the recent piece of legislation requiring cameras attached to TASERs, so that the cops' usage of them can be monitored for violations. I believe I also remember him saying once that he thinks the dashboard cameras in the cop cars should always be turned on—to monitor the officers, not the people they stop.

I've tried to stay civil in all the arguments I've had with you over your nutty ideas. But if you think that highline just up and came here now to stop the Copwatch people, you really are a completely ignorant moron.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 02, 2008, 04:27 PM NHFT
jraxi, maybe you'd feel different after he kidnapped you and stole your money?

No matter how "good" he talks or thinks, his actions still make him "bad". There is no middle ground. Name a good nazi.




Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on June 02, 2008, 04:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 02, 2008, 04:27 PM NHFT
No matter how "good" he talks or thinks, his actions still make him "bad". There is no middle ground. Name a good nazi.

Just did that in another thread (http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=14217.msg245246#msg245246).
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 02, 2008, 04:53 PM NHFT
Letting them be slaves was "good"?

I'd rather be sent to the gas chambers than be a slave.

is this the Schindler from the movie Shindlers List? I never seen it.

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on June 02, 2008, 05:19 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 02, 2008, 04:53 PM NHFT
Letting them be slaves was "good"?

I'd rather be sent to the gas chambers than be a slave.

Eh, personal choice. I agree with you, but not everyone would.

Quote from: kola on June 02, 2008, 04:53 PM NHFT
is this the Schindler from the movie Shindlers List? I never seen it.

Yes, but he was a real person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler).

Schindler wasn't exactly a "good person"—he owned a factory that employed slave labor, that made munitions for the German war effort, and so on. The ideal thing for him to do morally, perhaps, could have been to forge papers to get his workers out of the country (like many others did), and then sabotage or destroy his factories—but I don't think he was opposed to the war, just the German treatment of Jews. But my original point wasn't to look for the best answer, but to point out that asking someone to just up and withdraw from their difficult position does not help anyone or anything except perhaps the conscience of the person in question.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: error on June 02, 2008, 06:36 PM NHFT
I'll know where highline stands if he hands the keys to his DeLorean to Russell. ;)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat McCotter on June 02, 2008, 06:39 PM NHFT
I understood he was giving rides, not letting folks drive!
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 02, 2008, 07:37 PM NHFT
Cops "make you an offer you can't refuse" much like other mafia
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 02, 2008, 07:38 PM NHFT
Quote from: error on June 02, 2008, 06:36 PM NHFT
I'll know where highline stands if he hands the keys to his DeLorean to Russell. ;)
:glasses1: :campfire: :wave: :icon_motor:
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Shane Maxfield on June 02, 2008, 11:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 05:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:07 PM NHFT
I am sure you are quite aware that he did a backround check on me.

Kola

I did not know that.

Geez, if looking up stuff that Dr. Kirk himself has posted is a "background check", then guilty as charged!  As for looking me up, have at it...there's not much to find.  Who was it that said "The details of my life are quite inconsequential."  If Kola CAN see my place, then I hope he can give me some color advice...my shutters just aren't jiving with the rest of the house.  Alas, I suspect it's BS, but we should take compliments when they're offered. 
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on June 03, 2008, 03:47 AM NHFT
well ive decided instead of leaving nhfree like i would normally do when infiltration by the enemy comes along i will instead use my ignore button because nhfree is recently being over run by the other team.talk will never convince me actons might if you wanna hang with the good guys you got the wrong job.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 03:50 AM NHFT
One already left.  Highline seems to have deleted his account.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 03, 2008, 07:29 AM NHFT
think of it as .... the cops have pulled the bus over .... now they are asking if we have anything in the vehicle "we shouldn't have" :)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Jacobus on June 03, 2008, 07:48 AM NHFT
Russell, I am not happy that you were arrested, but I am happy that your arrest exposed the truth of having "cops as your friend".

I was impressed by the two cops coming on here and expressing similar goals some of us have with respect to liberty.  I thought "maybe there is such a thing as a good cop".  Maybe, I thought, some cops don't enforce horrible laws (even though on principle I personally would not enforce any laws) and seek instead only to resolve conflicts.

But then, I'm not the most discerning person in the world and I tend to believe what people say to me.  When a stranger asks me for some money because they need a "bus ride to Worcester", I give them some money.  If I go to a store, I am an easy sell.  When I see a hitchhiker, I pull over without hesitation.

To Shane, this arrest might have seemed trivial.  But no arrest is trivial.  Every arrest carries with it the threat of violence and even of death if you resist, no matter how silly the law is that you are violating.

Shane has demonstrated what good having a cop as a "friend" will do.  You always have to worry about whether they will find some reason to turn you in.  You can never trust them.  In fact, it is better to not even know them.  If it had been a different cop who did not know who Russell was, Russell would have been left free.

Shane and highline, you have clearly chosen to hold the orders of the government over the peaceful people here, and even, seemingly, the orders of your heart.  Because of this, I do not wish to know you.  I do not wish ever to have you as neighbor.  And until you quit your job and renounce the work you have done, I cannot ever consider you friend.  

I know libertarians are supposed to get all excited about cops speaking against drug prohibition, just like Republicans get all excited when black people show up to their events.  But this is too much.  I hope that the cops here feel "pushed out" and simply leave this online community alone.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 03, 2008, 07:55 AM NHFT
Quote from: Jacobus on June 03, 2008, 07:48 AM NHFTEvery arrest carries with it the threat of violence and even of death if you resist, no matter how silly the law is that you are violating.
What would have happened if I had said, "I don't want to stay here anymore." and drove off?
What if they stopped my car and I said,"I don't want to talk to you guys or go with you" and ran off?

Quote
I know libertarians are supposed to get all excited about cops speaking against drug prohibition, just like Republicans get all excited when black people show up to their events.  But this is too much.  I hope that the cops here feel "pushed out" and simply leave this online community alone.
I have never gotten excited about various government people wanting to join this forum. I guess that might be another way that I don't fit the libertarian label.

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 03, 2008, 07:58 AM NHFT
QuoteJacobus quoted :Shane has demonstrated what good having a cop as a "friend" will do.  You always have to worry about whether they will find some reason to turn you in.  You can never trust them.  In fact, it is better to not even know them.  If it had been a different cop who did not know who Russell was, Russell would have been left free.

This was the point I was trying to make from the very beginning, Jacobus. As much as even I would like to believe that there are some "good cops", after all my life experiences with them, it cannot be so.
Your worst enemy is a cop "friend".

Brad (highliner) was smart and high-tailed out of here because he knows his goose was cooked and he doesnt have a damn leg to stand on. He came here to try and convince himself that he is a good cop so he can legitimize being a thugged brownshirt. When faced with the reality of the honest truth he quickly left.

I am glad the 2 cops here because it only proved my theory that all cops are bad and the worst cop is a "friend".

Now that once has left, hopefully the other one will leave.

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 03, 2008, 08:05 AM NHFT
Quote from: Shane Maxfield on June 02, 2008, 11:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: highline on May 31, 2008, 05:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on May 31, 2008, 05:07 PM NHFT
I am sure you are quite aware that he did a backround check on me.

Kola

I did not know that.

Geez, if looking up stuff that Dr. Kirk himself has posted is a "background check", then guilty as charged!  As for looking me up, have at it...there's not much to find.  Who was it that said "The details of my life are quite inconsequential."  If Kola CAN see my place, then I hope he can give me some color advice...my shutters just aren't jiving with the rest of the house.  Alas, I suspect it's BS, but we should take compliments when they're offered. 

Shame, There are other comments more important in this forum that you could address. Why cherry-pick this piddley nonsense concerning me. There was a slew of comments and questions presented by others in regards to your abusive force and bullish attitude concerning you arresting Russell Kanning. I no longer give a shit what you have to say but I encourage you to keep commenting on the forum because the more you talk the more other people realize how full of crap you are. Once everyone sees through you're fake front, then you can leave. Fair enough?

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 08:10 AM NHFT
Russell said something the other day that really struck me:  every interaction with the police carries with it the threat of violence/death.  I was thinking that well, if you just had a policeman friend, just talking to him wouldn't, but Highline pointed out how he'd have Russell arrested if he was smoking pot.  It really is EVERY interaction with them.  If they don't like what you're doing, and you don't comply with demands, out come the guns.  You don't even have to resist, as Zim found out, he was doing as they asked and they pulled a gun on him.  So if Highline actually comes to PorcFest, everyone has to watch themselves, since he's said he will use force against us.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 03, 2008, 08:13 AM NHFT
looking the other way on pot would seem simple ... but the guys said he would enforce it.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Free libertarian on June 03, 2008, 09:25 AM NHFT
 Looking the other way is a good thing. If a cop professes to be a liberty loving person, but can't or won't look the other way they are living a contradiction no matter how they rationalize it. Enforcing stupid laws while working against them doesn't make sense. Chalk that one up to "just doing my job", as if that is a valid excuse. 

Seems like when I was a kid, more cops weren't as anal about enforcing certain stupid stuff as they are today. I can remember a friend whose dad was a cop...he said they never had to buy beer at his house. The old man had a ready supply of confiscated alcohol he'd snag by cruising all the local teenage partying spots. He'd make you pour out the one you were drinking and take the rest home for uh "evidence".
  As cops go he was a decent guy, never wrote me up for having no motor cycle license or riding my unlicensed trail bike on the back roads...called my mom instead. I don't see that happening today...of course I'm almost 50 now and he probably doesn't have my moms phone number anymore.   ;D 
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 03, 2008, 09:28 AM NHFT
every confrontation with a cops puts your life (and your loves ones) at risk. But many people do not want to belieive that because it is a very scary reality.

once those handcuffs are on and you're in the patrol car, you are fair game for cavity searches, beatings, taserings, torture, blood draws, forced urine samples via catheters, loss of your children, loss of your job and jailtime and death.

rights? we have no "legal" rights because corrupt people make bad laws and the cops enforce them. We have only our God given rights and have to use our disgression as how to go about dealing wth thugs, thieves and murderers.

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Raineyrocks on June 03, 2008, 10:23 AM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 08:10 AM NHFT
Russell said something the other day that really struck me:  every interaction with the police carries with it the threat of violence/death.  I was thinking that well, if you just had a policeman friend, just talking to him wouldn't, but Highline pointed out how he'd have Russell arrested if he was smoking pot.  It really is EVERY interaction with them.  If they don't like what you're doing, and you don't comply with demands, out come the guns.  You don't even have to resist, as Zim found out, he was doing as they asked and they pulled a gun on him.  So if Highline actually comes to PorcFest, everyone has to watch themselves, since he's said he will use force against us.

Good point Kat, thanks!  You never know sometimes who's who anyway so I guess there's a small benefit in knowing at least one cop will be there and to "watch out", but it makes me wonder how many more could be there that we don't know about.

Russell's statement is so true and it shouldn't be that way.  Was there ever a time anyone can remember when the majority of cops were really there to be civil servants?  Now it's like they can't wait to catch anyone doing anything they classify as wrong and punish them for it.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Giggan on June 03, 2008, 10:25 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 03, 2008, 07:29 AM NHFT
think of it as .... the cops have pulled the bus over .... now they are asking if we have anything in the vehicle "we shouldn't have" :)

I always found that to be an ironic way for the police to ask what they could arrest you for, as what you 'shouldn't' have and what is 'illegal' are seldom related.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Raineyrocks on June 03, 2008, 10:29 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 03, 2008, 09:28 AM NHFT
every confrontation with a cops puts your life (and your loves ones) at risk. But many people do not want to belieive that because it is a very scary reality.

once those handcuffs are on and you're in the patrol car, you are fair game for cavity searches, beatings, taserings, torture, blood draws, forced urine samples via catheters, loss of your children, loss of your job and jailtime and death.

rights? we have no "legal" rights because corrupt people make bad laws and the cops enforce them. We have only our God given rights and have to use our disgression as how to go about dealing wth thugs, thieves and murderers.

Kola

My son has been telling me about this cop that has supposedly been friendly with him and his friend for the past year.  I've been warning him a cop is a cop and he's probably using you guys to get information that you might think is nothing but it's something to the cop.  I said it's either that or the cop is hanging out a little bit with you because he's a perv, one or the other, both, whatever it's not right. 

Well after my son has been defending this cop and getting mad at me for being "paranoid", he got arrested by this same cop 2 days ago and I think now he believes me. Eye roll smiley guy!

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on June 03, 2008, 10:55 AM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 08:10 AM NHFT
Russell said something the other day that really struck me:  every interaction with the police carries with it the threat of violence/death.  I was thinking that well, if you just had a policeman friend, just talking to him wouldn't, but Highline pointed out how he'd have Russell arrested if he was smoking pot.  It really is EVERY interaction with them.  If they don't like what you're doing, and you don't comply with demands, out come the guns.  You don't even have to resist, as Zim found out, he was doing as they asked and they pulled a gun on him.  So if Highline actually comes to PorcFest, everyone has to watch themselves, since he's said he will use force against us.

As someone who has spent a little time conversing with him, I think Highline has a public persona that he still wears out of fear.  If his bosses saw him say on a public forum, "If I see drugs, I'll look the other way", he may suffer retaliation.  I'm not excusing his position, just attempting to analyze it.

People using "illegal narcotics" at porcfest should be more concerned about cops they don't know about, if they want to be concerned.  Brad's pretty easy to spot and avoid if you're paranoid.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 11:16 AM NHFT
So you going to light up a doobie with him at PorcFest?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on June 03, 2008, 12:27 PM NHFT
ian i believe the joke will be on you when your buddy escorts you to the back of his unmarked cruiser.Your part of the reason i found fsp and now i am starting to doubt you. beware people with candy and shiny badges and handcuffs.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: error on June 03, 2008, 12:40 PM NHFT
I don't think PorcFest is within highline's jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 01:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: error on June 03, 2008, 12:40 PM NHFT
I don't think PorcFest is within highline's jurisdiction.

I'm sure he'd just contact others to do the actual dirty work, like Shane did the other day.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on June 03, 2008, 01:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 11:16 AM NHFT
So you going to light up a doobie with him at PorcFest?

Don't think he smokes, nor would I put it in his face to "test" him.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on June 03, 2008, 01:59 PM NHFT
Quote from: jose on June 03, 2008, 12:27 PM NHFT
ian i believe the joke will be on you when your buddy escorts you to the back of his unmarked cruiser.Your part of the reason i found fsp and now i am starting to doubt you. beware people with candy and shiny badges and handcuffs.

Come now, I wasn't born yesterday.

Sorry to hear you're doubting.  Not sure why. 
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 03, 2008, 02:08 PM NHFT
right on jose! it does make one wonder where Ian's position is. He has been "sucked in" by them. so far.


Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on June 03, 2008, 02:09 PM NHFT
I call em as i see em
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on June 03, 2008, 02:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 03, 2008, 02:08 PM NHFT
right on jose! it does make one wonder where Ian's position is. He has been "sucked in" by them. so far.


Kola

Anyone who knows me knows my position.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 02:16 PM NHFT
Missionary?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FTL_Ian on June 03, 2008, 02:28 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 02:16 PM NHFT
Missionary?

;)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 02:39 PM NHFT
Well, I guess the people who know you would get it right.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 03, 2008, 06:04 PM NHFT
Quote from: jose on June 03, 2008, 02:09 PM NHFT
I call em as i see em

LOL!

hey thats my line  ^-^

jk
Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 03, 2008, 06:07 PM NHFT
Quote from: raineyrocks on June 03, 2008, 10:29 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 03, 2008, 09:28 AM NHFT
every confrontation with a cops puts your life (and your loves ones) at risk. But many people do not want to belieive that because it is a very scary reality.

once those handcuffs are on and you're in the patrol car, you are fair game for cavity searches, beatings, taserings, torture, blood draws, forced urine samples via catheters, loss of your children, loss of your job and jailtime and death.

rights? we have no "legal" rights because corrupt people make bad laws and the cops enforce them. We have only our God given rights and have to use our disgression as how to go about dealing wth thugs, thieves and murderers.

Kola

My son has been telling me about this cop that has supposedly been friendly with him and his friend for the past year.  I've been warning him a cop is a cop and he's probably using you guys to get information that you might think is nothing but it's something to the cop.  I said it's either that or the cop is hanging out a little bit with you because he's a perv, one or the other, both, whatever it's not right. 

Well after my son has been defending this cop and getting mad at me for being "paranoid", he got arrested by this same cop 2 days ago and I think now he believes me. Eye roll smiley guy!


yeah sounds like creepy "friend" cop story. I would bet hes the perv predator type.

Kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 03, 2008, 06:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on June 03, 2008, 02:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 03, 2008, 02:08 PM NHFT
right on jose! it does make one wonder where Ian's position is. He has been "sucked in" by them. so far.


Kola

Ian quote Anyone who knows me knows my position.

no comment, Ian. I will be nice.  ;D
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Coconut on June 03, 2008, 06:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: Giggan on June 03, 2008, 10:25 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 03, 2008, 07:29 AM NHFT
think of it as .... the cops have pulled the bus over .... now they are asking if we have anything in the vehicle "we shouldn't have" :)

I always found that to be an ironic way for the police to ask what they could arrest you for, as what you 'shouldn't' have and what is 'illegal' are seldom related.

They like to take me out of vehicles and ask me if "there's anything going on I should know about?" or if "there's something you should be telling me?" Then I have to tell them I have no drugs or illegal weapons like 5 times before they remember the answer.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on June 03, 2008, 08:34 PM NHFT
Sounds like you should be asking them those same questions
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Coconut on June 03, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 03, 2008, 08:34 PM NHFT
Sounds like you should be asking them those same questions

I've wanted to. They like to ask my age, so I want to answer and say "And how old are you?"
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Giggan on June 04, 2008, 12:27 AM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 03, 2008, 01:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: error on June 03, 2008, 12:40 PM NHFT
I don't think PorcFest is within highline's jurisdiction.

I'm sure he'd just contact others to do the actual dirty work, like Shane did the other day.

In NH they don't even have to call in friends, all they have to do is get permission from local authorities to enforce NH laws out of jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Dave Ridley on June 04, 2008, 12:36 PM NHFT
I just now got around to noticing that shane has been on the forums for a full month and is responding to some of our concerns here.

I hope some of the crankier among us do not chase him off like they have chased off so many other folks who only partially agree with us...

We benefit from having folks here who are not part of the choir. And they should benefit from being here.

But Shane I hope you will not make a habit of harassing Russell, who I'm sure you would agree is not a threat.   
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 04, 2008, 12:44 PM NHFT
what was the benefit?

ask russell how he benefitted.

kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 04, 2008, 06:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 04, 2008, 12:36 PM NHFT
But Shane I hope you will not make a habit of harassing Russell, who I'm sure you would agree is not a threat.   
thank you Dada ... but I could be seen as a threat.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 06:41 PM NHFT
You're a threat to my vow of chastity.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Jim Johnson on June 04, 2008, 07:16 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 06:41 PM NHFT
You're a threat to my vow of chastity.

No I'm not.  :blush:

Wait... you mean Russell... poor Russell... wow, vow of chastity? damn... I'm going to go get Pat K... I'll be right back.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on June 04, 2008, 07:17 PM NHFT
Did I hear my name called?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on June 04, 2008, 07:16 PM NHFT
vow of chastity?

Well, it lasted at least 10 seconds.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on June 04, 2008, 07:20 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on June 04, 2008, 07:16 PM NHFT
vow of chastity?

Well, it lasted at least 10 seconds.


Is that a record?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 07:26 PM NHFT
No, I think Madonna holds the record.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on June 04, 2008, 07:27 PM NHFT
I know i feel somthing a miss in the air when ever russell is afoot sometime i can just get an eerie sense of problems when hes near. or maybe its just me.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Jim Johnson on June 04, 2008, 07:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on June 04, 2008, 07:16 PM NHFT
vow of chastity?

Well, it lasted at least 10 seconds.

Damn, don't be easy or anything.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 07:29 PM NHFT
Quote from: jose on June 04, 2008, 07:27 PM NHFT
I know i feel somthing a miss in the air when ever russell is afoot sometime i can just get an eerie sense of problems when hes near. or maybe its just me.

Oh, problems for your vow when he's near, too?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 07:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on June 04, 2008, 07:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 04, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on June 04, 2008, 07:16 PM NHFT
vow of chastity?

Well, it lasted at least 10 seconds.

Damn, don't be easy or anything.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=enVI7wMosqc
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat K on June 04, 2008, 07:39 PM NHFT
(http://www.xoospace.com/myspace/graphics/25651.gif)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Jim Johnson on June 04, 2008, 07:46 PM NHFT
 ;D
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 04, 2008, 08:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: jose on June 04, 2008, 07:27 PM NHFT
I know i feel somthing a miss in the air when ever russell is afoot sometime i can just get an eerie sense of problems when hes near. or maybe its just me.
The cops don't show up to all of my parties.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on June 04, 2008, 09:45 PM NHFT
seems they came with you and used the fire as an excuse, as not to blow your cover
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on June 04, 2008, 10:36 PM NHFT
They were at the end of your driveway when we showed up.  Thats how we knew it was your place.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on June 05, 2008, 12:42 AM NHFT
 ;D  lol :blah_by_sarrlas_emotes:
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 05, 2008, 06:39 AM NHFT
Firecracker Joe ... knows how to draw a crowd .... of police. ;)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 05, 2008, 01:40 PM NHFT
QuoteThe reasoning behind this is simple: there are lots of people out there who regularly endanger the rest of us (and our families).  Whether they routinely drive drunk, drive recklessly (like the motorcyclist from the other day who initiated the events that eventually led to my arresting Russell), habitually speed etc.  The licensing process attempts to keep them off the roads by having the requirement that everyone needs one to drive, and when you lose your license you lose your privilege to drive that 2000lb hunk of steel on the roads.  The consequences of getting caught driving without a license, or on a suspended license, deter most of those dangerous drivers, in my experience.  And keeps them from driving, and endangering you and me.


I'd like to discuss the premise that licensing helps prevent recklessness, drunken driving etc.

I'll keep speeding mostly out of this conversation. (although it is a MASSIVE revenue source) I will mention that I firmly believe that speed limits are set too low most places on purpose.
The fact that I have to drive under the duress of having to watch my speedometer so I don't get pulled over, to drive at a speed which is too low to be comfortable on most roads while enduring the ever present thread that at any moment, the blues are coming behind me is in fact FAR more distracting that if one were freely, comfortably and carefully. There is something so incredibly undignified as to have my personal abilities and intentions for the safety of myself and my loved ones constantly questioned by the "authorities"

Shane states that he feels the license is a means to protect people from the "lots"( I personally disagree with this premise and will require substantiation to consider it a valid comment) of people out there who regularly endanger us.
I assume Shane, you mean a license is useful as a means of legal recourse.

However,  I don't follow the logic that we need a license to protect our rights. Further, I don't see how a license and the threat of having a license revoked will prevent an individual inclined towards a particular behavior, be it drunken driving or recklessness, to alter their behavior. I believe repeat offenders for drunken driving is preeety high.


It seems clear that the license has been an immense source of revenue for states across the nation as well as the gateway for such highly offensive legislation as Real ID.

Shane, can you give me a ballpark estimate of how much revenue the state makes from license applications and renewals and tickets from people having either no license or suspended licenses?

Also Shane, you stated that driving is a "privilege" in your opinion. What right in your opinion does the government have in being the arbiter of granting the privilege of driving?





Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 05, 2008, 01:52 PM NHFT
eating donuts is a priviledge
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: error on June 05, 2008, 02:02 PM NHFT
State licensing is not necessary to ensure that people who drive on the roads are safe, competent drivers. This function can easily be handled by the driving schools which already exist, (and do a much better job of driver training than the state!) as well as the plethora of new facilities which would exist in the absence of state control over this much-desired function.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on June 05, 2008, 10:09 PM NHFT
its those  big shifty brown eyes that attracts them. the only way they would move faster towards me is if i carried donuts. Maybe i should try that a little bribe never hurts. whos firecracker joe
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on June 05, 2008, 10:25 PM NHFT
Was that a question?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on June 05, 2008, 11:58 PM NHFT
Quote from: jose on June 03, 2008, 03:47 AM NHFT
well ive decided instead of leaving nhfree like i would normally do when infiltration by the enemy comes along i will instead use my ignore button because nhfree is recently being over run by the other team.talk will never convince me actons might if you wanna hang with the good guys you got the wrong job.

They've always been here—they're just posting now.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on June 06, 2008, 12:02 AM NHFT
Quote from: Free libertarian on June 03, 2008, 09:25 AM NHFT
Seems like when I was a kid, more cops weren't as anal about enforcing certain stupid stuff as they are today. I can remember a friend whose dad was a cop...he said they never had to buy beer at his house. The old man had a ready supply of confiscated alcohol he'd snag by cruising all the local teenage partying spots. He'd make you pour out the one you were drinking and take the rest home for uh "evidence".

That's the sort of corruption that would get them disciplined or fired nowadays.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on June 06, 2008, 12:07 AM NHFT
Quote from: Coconut on June 03, 2008, 06:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: Giggan on June 03, 2008, 10:25 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 03, 2008, 07:29 AM NHFT
think of it as .... the cops have pulled the bus over .... now they are asking if we have anything in the vehicle "we shouldn't have" :)

I always found that to be an ironic way for the police to ask what they could arrest you for, as what you 'shouldn't' have and what is 'illegal' are seldom related.

They like to take me out of vehicles and ask me if "there's anything going on I should know about?" or if "there's something you should be telling me?" Then I have to tell them I have no drugs or illegal weapons like 5 times before they remember the answer.

What's wrong with just:—
  "Am I being detained?"
  "Am I free to go?"
  "I don't have to answer that."
  "No, I don't consent to a search."
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Giggan on June 06, 2008, 03:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on June 06, 2008, 12:02 AM NHFT
Quote from: Free libertarian on June 03, 2008, 09:25 AM NHFT
Seems like when I was a kid, more cops weren't as anal about enforcing certain stupid stuff as they are today. I can remember a friend whose dad was a cop...he said they never had to buy beer at his house. The old man had a ready supply of confiscated alcohol he'd snag by cruising all the local teenage partying spots. He'd make you pour out the one you were drinking and take the rest home for uh "evidence".

That's the sort of corruption that would get them disciplined or fired nowadays.

You can blame the courts for majorly perpetuating assholism in cops with this scenario. There was a case where a cop pulled kids over who had beer and made them dump it out and allowed them to drive off. They later that night got drunk and crashed their car. The parents sued saying the cops had a duty to arrest and won like 9$ million from the town, stolen money cause they're kid's are morons and the cop had earlier cut them a break. Goes without saying those 'justices' need be impeached.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FreelanceFreedomFighter on June 06, 2008, 07:22 AM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 05, 2008, 01:40 PM NHFT
There is something so incredibly undignified as to have my personal abilities and intentions for the safety of myself and my loved ones constantly questioned by the "authorities".

:clap:

Quote from: Rodinia on June 05, 2008, 01:40 PM NHFT
Also Shane, you stated that driving is a "privilege" in your opinion. What right in your opinion does the government have in being the arbiter of granting the privilege of driving?

The entire premise that driving is a "privilege" is abhorrent to the principles of the people who were living here when this nation was founded! (whether native american or colonist) While I believe that no document is necessary to enumerate the unalienable rights granted to each of us by our creator, the fact is that the demands of the people living here for clarification of certain principles includes this acknowledgement:

Amendment IX:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Just because it isn't explicit about the Right to drive (travel), it is none-the-less "in there". The freedom to travel by the very best mode of transportation available that one can afford is fundamental... regardless of whether that mode of transportation is personal power, animal power, or mechanical power. Any pre-USA inhabitant of this continent would have either laughed their @$$ off or revolted against anyone who would have mentioned such an absurdity 200+ years ago. In fact...

The first self-propelled vehicle is documented in China in 1678. The first US patent on an automobile came in 1789 with vehicles being available and "on the road" in 1805. Modern automobiles were being mass produced in the USA by 1900. So... when do you suppose Driver's Licenses and Registrations started here?

Vehicle ID plates were first required by NY in 1901, but there was no fee or fine. Vehicle owners were expected to make their own. In 1903, Massachusetts first began requiring a state-issued registration for motor vehicles. It had nothing to do with safety. It was another form of taxation. (Some things never change  :'( )

In late 1910, NY began requiring professional drivers (chauffeurs) to get a license, but the first state to (*supposedly) require all drivers to get a license was NJ in mid-1913... These measures were pushed through under the guise of being needed for safety. As usual, it never is about what is best for the people, but is about revenue and control.

So... From 1805 to 1903 (98 years!), there was no "requirement" for vehicle registration (and you could build your own self-propelled vehicle! novel concept! R&D!) and there weren't any problems. AND... From 1805 (actually the beginning of time) to 1913 (over a century!), there was no "requirement" to take a test and be "licensed" to operate a self-propelled vehicle.

It's a "privilege"?  ::)  Because gubermint has gotten away with murder (figuratively and literally) for a century, doesn't make it any less of a crime.

Licensing, in any form, **rarely does anything to protect "We, The People"... but it always generates massive revenues, more power and more control for the State.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*: I don't know how the law reads in NH on this, but in many States the legal definition of an "operator" or "driver" specifically states that it is someone using a motor vehicle for commercial purposes... Thus giving many liberty-minded folks a counter-argument to the gubermint's claim that they are required to obtain a driver's license. Perhaps NH doesn't have that definition, someone who has the time and resources should check. (It often isn't in the same area of the law as the statute stating there is a driver's license requirement...)

**: As evidenced by the large number of MDs and Lawyers who never lose their licenses even when people are irreparably harmed or killed! (and there are numerous examples)

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 06, 2008, 07:28 AM NHFT
I had a cop in Kansas tell me it (driving is a privilege) was in the us constitution. I replied that it was good then that I wasn't appealing to the constitution, since it wasn't going to help me. Maybe Homeland Security has been sending out a different version of that piece of paper.

He also told me that the reason they demand licenses is to make sure everyone has insurance. I replied that I lived in a state (NH) that didn't require it. He didn't believe that was possible.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on June 06, 2008, 07:43 AM NHFT
If you want to fall back on what's written in the U.S.' founding documents, the Articles of Confederation explicitly documents a right of travel. And yes, the Articles are still in effect, despite the parallel existence of the Constitution: The "perpetual union" of the Articles is how the fedgov justified legally invalidating the secession of the Confederate States in the 1860s.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 06, 2008, 09:46 AM NHFT
that wouldn't have worked on that guy .... or any other cop that says driving a car is a privilege.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: John Edward Mercier on June 06, 2008, 10:09 AM NHFT
DLs are State... not federal.
The Articles were an agreement between States. Freedom of Movement from State to State was in them.

I think the pertinent founding docs would be NH Constitution. With Part First Articles One, Three, Seven, and Twenty-Eight... along with Part Two Article Five.
These basically define the from where the authority of the State comes and to whom the authority is delegate, for what purpose, and with what limits.

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 02:47 PM NHFT
Quotewell ive decided instead of leaving nhfree like i would normally do when infiltration by the enemy comes along i will instead use my ignore button because nhfree is recently being over run by the other team.talk will never convince me actons might if you wanna hang with the good guys you got the wrong job.

Jose, I'm not following you here, mate.

For example, I don't understand what you mean when you state that an individual you consider an "enemy"  who happens to be posting on an open board can be considered to have infiltrated the board.

I also have to say, I personally don't believe that we can logically insist on labeling people as the enemy and conveniently then justify discrediting anything they may consequently have to say as a result of them having been labeled. Whether  you like what that person does for a a living or not, they are a person nonetheless and thusly, until proven they no longer deserve it, ought to have the benefit of the doubt of at least having the opportunity of voicing their opinion. That you choose to isolate yourself from differing opinions makes you guilty of exactly what you label the "enemy" of being guilty of.
Just my opinion...
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 03:21 PM NHFT
In addition, I'm trying to say that I don't think it's fair to discredit the opinions of an individual due to their having been "labeled" this or that. That a valid discretization of one's opinions ought to be the result of having found them to be fallacious through open discourse.

In my opinion, it doesn't seem conducive to solving anything, not to mention, I think it is absurd not to make notable the distinction that people are PEOPLE who may work for the government or other authoritarian devices, but they are people nonetheless. I don't think it is fair to judge all people who work for the government or authorities under the blanketing premise that they are all immoral. I am comfortable with absolutes, I am not comfortable with generalizations.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat McCotter on June 07, 2008, 03:43 PM NHFT
Shane's actions speak loud and clear - Russell was not hurting anyone nor damaging property nor did he appear to be breaking a law - but he still thought it proper to arrest him because he knows that Russell does not ask the state for permission to drive.

That's not "labelling." That's pointing out the facts.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 03:46 PM NHFT
Sure, but the law is the law. I'm not saying that I agree that it's a valid law and I can't recall having consented to such a law but, what I'm saying is, why is his perspective any less valid than yours? What do you have to lose by hearing his opinion and potentially engaging him in discourse?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 03:48 PM NHFT
At this point, the fact that there is a law is inconsequential to the bigger opportunity of exposing people to alternative points of view. In other words, I feel as though there is something to be lost by discrediting opinions of those who have not justly been proved to no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 03:50 PM NHFT
Because if you do not give them the benefit of the doubt, why should they give it to you? And you may think they already don't but has that been proven? If you haven't given them the benefit of the doubt, I would have to argue that no, that has not been proven.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Pat McCotter on June 07, 2008, 03:50 PM NHFT
We engaged him in discourse. Those were his actions after discourse. Sorry but 'nuff said.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 03:55 PM NHFT
Those were his actions as a "law enforcement officer". I disagree that 'nuff's been said. I disagree because as a "person" he has an opinion outside of the realm of his day job. I see opportunity.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 03:56 PM NHFT
And what chance do we think we've got if we don't try an persuade people? People who haven't clearly earned their "discredited" status?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: error on June 07, 2008, 04:02 PM NHFT
This police officer certainly deserves public shame for his actions. And the fact that he was simply enforcing the "law" (or even just obeying it!) -- those magic words on goddamned pieces of paper -- is no excuse for such an immoral act.

It's my hope that people like this police officer who find themselves committing moral offenses against other people will realize the error of their ways and the harm they are doing to society generally, and eventually stop committing such offenses.

I suspect that this police officer is a human being; it is because of his humanity that we shame him publicly. If he were not human, then perhaps he would deserve some other punishment for his offenses.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:11 PM NHFT
Ok error, I would agree that between you and I, there is no excuse for upholding an immoral law. However, I would argue that the individual who upheld "the law" is ignorant of the standard of "immoral" that you and I probably agree upon. How is it fair for us to judge this individual by a standard that he is unfamiliar with?

Bear in mind, this is a particularly benign situation. Not a black and white example of an immoral act committed by a "law enforcement" officer. How I would personally make the distinction is if for example, this officer physically accosted Russel. That would clearly be immoral and unacceptable and would serve as evidence to discredit his opinions should he wish to offer them after the fact.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 07, 2008, 04:22 PM NHFT
You're saying there is no absolute right and wrong.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: error on June 07, 2008, 04:24 PM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:11 PM NHFT
Ok error, I would agree that between you and I, there is no excuse for upholding an immoral law. However, I would argue that the individual who upheld "the law" is ignorant of the standard of "immoral" that you and I probably agree upon. How is it fair for us to judge this individual by a standard that he is unfamiliar with?

You judge every day with every person. That's why you limit your association with some people, associate freely with others, ostracize some people entirely, and attempt to explain yourself to yet others.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: error on June 07, 2008, 04:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 07, 2008, 04:22 PM NHFT
You're saying there is no absolute right and wrong.

Free, voluntary association is right. Coercion, force and fraud are wrong. Seems pretty simple to me.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:37 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 07, 2008, 04:22 PM NHFT
You're saying there is no absolute right and wrong.

Oh, no, certainly not, there is absolute right and wrong. But there is also gray. And this circumstance in my opinion falls within the realm of gray. It does because there has been no actual, physical harm done.
The officer was upholding the law as he understands it and it seems to me, there is still an opportunity to influence his perspective.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: error on June 07, 2008, 04:24 PM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:11 PM NHFT
Ok error, I would agree that between you and I, there is no excuse for upholding an immoral law. However, I would argue that the individual who upheld "the law" is ignorant of the standard of "immoral" that you and I probably agree upon. How is it fair for us to judge this individual by a standard that he is unfamiliar with?

You judge every day with every person. That's why you limit your association with some people, associate freely with others, ostracize some people entirely, and attempt to explain yourself to yet others.

Yes, fine. However, personally speaking, there is only so far I'm willing to go to "limit" my association with people who may perpetuate unpleasantnesses upon me. 
For example, I regularly speed, according to the speed limits anyhow. I could argue the arbitrary nature of speed limits, (I have and it's gotten me nowhere) but the fact is, I am unwilling to do the speed limit under most circumstances. Not that I'm reckless mind you, as MOST people aren't. However being pulled over for speeding does not constitute an act of immorality on behalf of the officer in my opinion.
As well as they are only people. And those who do not treat morality in an egregious manner, I would suggest there is opportunity to sway minds.
Did I mention, I am an eternal optimist? Seriously, I can't even rationalize my way out of it, believe me, I've tried.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:55 PM NHFT
If silence is consent, the majority of the populace is guilty of immorality.

Quote from: error on June 07, 2008, 04:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on June 07, 2008, 04:22 PM NHFT
You're saying there is no absolute right and wrong.

Free, voluntary association is right. Coercion, force and fraud are wrong. Seems pretty simple to me.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: TackleTheWorld on June 07, 2008, 05:24 PM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:55 PM NHFT
If silence is consent, the majority of the populace is guilty of immorality.

And if silence is the sound of leaving other alone, 100% of all police are guilty of interfering in people's lives.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 07, 2008, 05:26 PM NHFT
People that are opposing me are my "enemies" ...

Rodinia ... you probably look at the cops as protecting you from the bad guys ... Jose sees them as the bad guys.

We have not kicked the cops off of our forum. PatMc wasn't suggesting that either. But I am not going to give them special treatment and do special things for them like what Highline wanted.

You feel comfortable questioning Jose and PatMc and others .... because they will not hurt you like the cops might. :(
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 07, 2008, 05:31 PM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 03:55 PM NHFT
Those were his actions as a "law enforcement officer". I disagree that 'nuff's been said. I disagree because as a "person" he has an opinion outside of the realm of his day job. I see opportunity.
Is he a person or a law enforcement officer?
How should we then live?
What if I get a job as a hired killer for the government?
Would taking the job be wrong?

Is it innocent to take any job? Can you then do whatever is required at that job?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 07, 2008, 05:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:11 PM NHFT
Bear in mind, this is a particularly benign situation. Not a black and white example of an immoral act committed by a "law enforcement" officer. How I would personally make the distinction is if for example, this officer physically accosted Russel. That would clearly be immoral and unacceptable and would serve as evidence to discredit his opinions should he wish to offer them after the fact.

Say the person doing this was someone other than a cop.  Would you call it benign to be told, get out of your car and come with me or I will shoot you (which is always implied when dealing with the cops)?  Would you yourself find it benign to be kidnapped?  I don't.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 07, 2008, 05:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 04:37 PM NHFTAnd this circumstance in my opinion falls within the realm of gray. It does because there has been no actual, physical harm done.
What if I had driven or walked away?
What if I stopped you on the street and took you away for a while?
What if I towed your car unless you moved it soon while I still had you locked up?

What happens when they want to charge me money for not having a license?
What happens if I don't have the money or don't want to pay?

Would you want that to happen to you?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 06:10 PM NHFT
QuoteRodinia ... you probably look at the cops as protecting you from the bad guys

Absolutely, unequivocally, not.  I do not look as "cops" as being responsible for my protection. They are "law enforcement". They enforce laws. They are not personal body guards.

I think my original message has been convoluted. My main issue was with Jose's post stating he was going to choose to "ignore" rather than leave the forum.
The only point I was trying to make was that I don't think that just because someone is "ignorant" of the principles of liberty, they ought to be "ignored" as Jose suggested. I think there is an opportunity to sway minds via interactive discourse.

Russell, I understand what you're doing and believe me, I applaud you for it.
Kat, I'm in no way trying to minimize the impact the "law enforcement" officers have had on Russell's and subsequently your and your daughter's lives.

I am an advocate of civil disobedience and absolutely to the core of my being resent "authority". Is anyone out there understating me???

I do not think that denying anyone the opportunity to express their opinion (via "ignoring") is a benefit to advancing the principles of liberty.

By stating this, I'm not implying that I ever believed it was anyone's intent to "kick" anyone off this forum.

I believe it is a great detriment to the liberty cause to avoid engaging in debate. I believe this because their arguments which I believe to be mainly logical fallacies are  opportunities to prove them wrong.

And to whoever knocked on of my 30 little karmas off, please, justify that action.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 06:22 PM NHFT
QuoteSay the person doing this was someone other than a cop.  Would you call it benign to be told, get out of your car and come with me or I will shoot you (which is always implied when dealing with the cops)?  Would you yourself find it benign to be kidnapped?  I don't.

No Kat, I would not consider it benign. I would consider it an act of force and would defend myself against it.
Look, I'm not justifying the cop's actions. I never implied that I was. What I am saying is, it is the "law" the cop was enforcing and if we don't at least try and persuade "them" that the law is wrong, what chance have we got at all? By trying to persuade them, you haven't got anything to lose.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 06:23 PM NHFT
QuoteWhat if I had driven or walked away?
What if I stopped you on the street and took you away for a while?
What if I towed your car unless you moved it soon while I still had you locked up?

What happens when they want to charge me money for not having a license?
What happens if I don't have the money or don't want to pay?

Would you want that to happen to you?

Of course I wouldn't. I never suggested I would.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 06:25 PM NHFT
QuoteAnd if silence is the sound of leaving other alone, 100% of all police are guilty of interfering in people's lives.

This isn't true at all. 100% of the police are in fact, not guilty of interfering in people's lives. some are, not all.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 06:26 PM NHFT
QuoteYou feel comfortable questioning Jose and PatMc and others .... because they will not hurt you like the cops might.

I am not afraid of the cops and if you had read earlier back in this post, I did in fact question the cop "Shane" who posted on this thread.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 06:30 PM NHFT
QuoteIs he a person or a law enforcement officer?
How should we then live?
What if I get a job as a hired killer for the government?
Would taking the job be wrong?

Is it innocent to take any job? Can you then do whatever is required at that job?

He is a person who works for law enforcement.
Live as you will, I can't answer that question for you.
Yes, I believe it would be morally wrong to take a job as a hired killer for the government.

No, it is not innocent to take any job.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: John Edward Mercier on June 07, 2008, 06:46 PM NHFT
Can I ask why its not innocent to take any job?
If no State existed, it would be at the purview of the individual.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 07:37 PM NHFT
It would be wrong because I believe there are absolute rights and wrongs and committing murdering outside of self defense is wrong.

I'm not trying to make this into an anti-state argument. All I was trying to say was I don't think there is anything to be gained by not hearing someone out. After all, he (Shane) came to this forum. So long as he's willing to engage in debate, what is there to be gained by ignoring him? Far as I see it, it's an opportunity and it would be a shame to let it go to waste. That's it.

And whoever game me sympathy karmas, it doesn't negate the fact that the original karma was taken away by someone who did not grant me the benefit of the doubt. I am after all, a girl of principle.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 07:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: John Edward Mercier on June 07, 2008, 06:46 PM NHFT
Can I ask why its not innocent to take any job?
If no State existed, it would be at the purview of the individual.

To elaborate on this question as I answered it using Russell's example of murder for hire, I think that there is a fundamental code of ethics and morals which humans adhere to as a means of survival. It's in our best interest to maintain it. I think government perverts this code, some examples are through unwholesome laws and alteration of public perception and judicial precedence.
Thusly, to take a job which would offend the fundamental human code of ethics would be clearly wrong. Is it wrong to be a tobacco merchant knowing that while tobacco is legal, it's also potentially deadly?
I think there are varying degrees of wrongness and some wrongs are worse than others. I think there are obvious lines which when crossed are clearly immoral. Murder obviously being one of these lines.
But to equivocate being pulled over with murder is unrealistic in my opinion.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 07, 2008, 08:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 07:37 PM NHFT
I'm not trying to make this into an anti-state argument. All I was trying to say was I don't think there is anything to be gained by not hearing someone out. After all, he (Shane) came to this forum. So long as he's willing to engage in debate, what is there to be gained by ignoring him?
Jose could gain some time back and maybe some sanity. :)
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 07, 2008, 08:58 PM NHFT
we now pause from a word from out sponsors:

Hi, I am Kolanut and I would like to take this brief moment and thank the 2 gooncops, shane and brad, for posting on the forum. They did a wonderful job of proving to others what REAL thugs they truely are, despite their meaniless bullshit comments. Their direct actions did their talking and their talking made many of us realize that these thugs lie through their teeth. Atall costs, avoid gooncops with their similar MO.

..now back to our regually tuned program.. 

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: John Edward Mercier on June 07, 2008, 09:42 PM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 07, 2008, 07:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: John Edward Mercier on June 07, 2008, 06:46 PM NHFT
Can I ask why its not innocent to take any job?
If no State existed, it would be at the purview of the individual.

To elaborate on this question as I answered it using Russell's example of murder for hire, I think that there is a fundamental code of ethics and morals which humans adhere to as a means of survival. It's in our best interest to maintain it. I think government perverts this code, some examples are through unwholesome laws and alteration of public perception and judicial precedence.
Thusly, to take a job which would offend the fundamental human code of ethics would be clearly wrong. Is it wrong to be a tobacco merchant knowing that while tobacco is legal, it's also potentially deadly?
I think there are varying degrees of wrongness and some wrongs are worse than others. I think there are obvious lines which when crossed are clearly immoral. Murder obviously being one of these lines.
But to equivocate being pulled over with murder is unrealistic in my opinion.

What code? How did it come about?
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 07, 2008, 09:44 PM NHFT
btw, whos rondinia? isnt that a style of pasta?

Kolinia
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: KBCraig on June 08, 2008, 01:22 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 07, 2008, 09:44 PM NHFT
btw, whos rondinia? isnt that a style of pasta?

Someone who's been around here a helluva lot longer than you, that's who. And who has earned some respect, even though she's taking a position here against the prevailing sentiment.

Rodinia, I gave you +1, and it wasn't "sympathy karma", even though I disagree with you. The karma was for coming here and speaking up for what you believe.

The forum was mostly very accepting of Maxfield and Highline, right up until Maxfield made his indefensible arrest of Russell and came back here to try to justify himself. I don't know why Highline left the forum; he'll have to speak for himself.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Ron Helwig on June 08, 2008, 08:18 AM NHFT
Just stating my opinion:

I'm in the camp that understands that not everyone can become 100% anarchist upon first hearing that govt is bad. Some people's skulls are thicker and it can take months or years for them to come around. Just ask Sandy how long it took her. Should we have been calling her names and making her go away?

It took me years to go from green-ish to Libertarian, and more years to get to "philosophical anarchist yet political minarchist".

Shane was moving in our direction. It may have been slow, and this incident would certainly count as a step backwards, but progress was being made. I'm afraid that because of all the vitriol, that progress has come to a complete stop.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 08:45 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 07, 2008, 09:44 PM NHFT
btw, whos rondinia? isnt that a style of pasta?

Kolinia

That would be rotini. Rodinia is the Russian name given to the oldest known super-continent. My slave name is Suzanne.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 09:55 AM NHFT
Well then, thank you KB. The only sentiment I have been trying to convey is to echo what Ron posted, that if people are willing to come to you and engage you in discourse, what have you got to lose by reciprocating?

In my opinion, the opportunity to argue principles is our greatest advantage.

Quote from: KBCraig on June 08, 2008, 01:22 AM NHFT
Quote from: kola on June 07, 2008, 09:44 PM NHFT
btw, whos rondinia? isnt that a style of pasta?

Someone who's been around here a helluva lot longer than you, that's who. And who has earned some respect, even though she's taking a position here against the prevailing sentiment.

Rodinia, I gave you +1, and it wasn't "sympathy karma", even though I disagree with you. The karma was for coming here and speaking up for what you believe.

The forum was mostly very accepting of Maxfield and Highline, right up until Maxfield made his indefensible arrest of Russell and came back here to try to justify himself. I don't know why Highline left the forum; he'll have to speak for himself.

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Friday on June 08, 2008, 10:07 AM NHFT
Quote from: Ron Helwig on June 08, 2008, 08:18 AM NHFT
I'm in the camp that understands that not everyone can become 100% anarchist upon first hearing that govt is bad. Some people's skulls are thicker and it can take months or years for them to come around. Just ask Sandy how long it took her. Should we have been calling her names and making her go away?
Heyyyyyyy... did Ron just comment on the thickness of my skull?  He did, didn't he?  Smack upside the head coming your way, buddy.  :fryingpan:    :D
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Caleb on June 08, 2008, 10:32 AM NHFT
I don't know about all this. My experience with the two cops was that if you did engage them respectfully, a lot of times your most important questions would just go unanswered. Particularly with Highline. I engaged him very respectfully a little before he left the forum, but he never even acknowledged that I had asked him a question. I'm not advocating rudeness, by any means. But engaging respectfully doesn't necessarily get you anywhere either.

No. No one should have attacked Sandy. But Sandy wasn't hurting anyone either. If Sandy's life pursuit prior to her conversion was to track down "evildoers", then perhaps avoiding her completely would have been the safest bet.  :-\
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 11:15 AM NHFT
I understand your concern Caleb. I actually have a friend from Australia who I can constantly in "debates" with. He calls them debates, I do not. Arguing with him has driven me towards learning a whole lot about debating and different types of arguments. Logical fallacies, ad hominem etc... There are literally dozens of ways for people to subvert what you're trying to say and there are names for the ways they do it.

It is my belief that these subversive tactics can always be exposed for they are. While you can't "force" someone to answer a question, you can point out their unwillingness to do and  hold their feet to the fire on that singular point. At some point, if you're consistent, they're going to have to answer or admit they can't answer the question. Chances are, their "answer" is going to be another subversive tactic which can be proven to be a subversive tactic.

It takes time and patience. I believe people are inherently good and if I expect the benefit of the doubt, I need to reciprocate the sentiment.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: John Edward Mercier on June 08, 2008, 11:54 AM NHFT
The purpose of debate isn't to win... its to change the oppositional point of view. Sometimes of all involved.
Many times in a debate an open-minded individual will need to take some time to see things from different perspectives... as our current system just didn't happen, it evolved over time.
The questions aren't ignored but assessed.

Like the main point of the thread... Russ is invoking his right to liberty, and the local agents of the citizen's association is invoking their right to property.
Thus arbitration... or outright confrontation.
The arbitration option is in place of 'might makes right'.




Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 12:37 PM NHFT
I agree with point of a debate isn't to win. My Aussie friend insists he "wins" every argument and it's pretty frustrating to try and explain that simple because he's declared  himself the "winner" doesn't make it a mutually consenting outcome.

I suppose this example can equivocate that I haven't consented to being ruled by any authority agency.
It just seems the only thing that can productively change public opinion is to change their minds.

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: John Edward Mercier on June 08, 2008, 03:42 PM NHFT
I consider that I've 'won', when I walk away with a broader viewpoint (I gained something from the exchange).

As for an authoritative agency... my viewpoint is more along the line of agents of a complex association.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Kat Kanning on June 08, 2008, 04:12 PM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on June 08, 2008, 10:07 AM NHFT
Quote from: Ron Helwig on June 08, 2008, 08:18 AM NHFT
I'm in the camp that understands that not everyone can become 100% anarchist upon first hearing that govt is bad. Some people's skulls are thicker and it can take months or years for them to come around. Just ask Sandy how long it took her. Should we have been calling her names and making her go away?
Heyyyyyyy... did Ron just comment on the thickness of my skull?  He did, didn't he?  Smack upside the head coming your way, buddy.  :fryingpan:    :D

Yes, but Sandy wasn't going around hurting people, so the thickness (or not) isn't particularly of concern to the rest of us  :D
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 08, 2008, 07:45 PM NHFT
Quote from: Ron Helwig on June 08, 2008, 08:18 AM NHFT
Shane was moving in our direction. It may have been slow, and this incident would certainly count as a step backwards, but progress was being made. I'm afraid that because of all the vitriol, that progress has come to a complete stop.
BTW I totally agree with Sandy and Caleb and Kat

Sandy because she might beat me with a pan.
Caleb and Kat because Sandy is in a very different position that a cop. The next step for her was very different than these guys.

Who says that it has stopped? When people are debating .... that isn't a good sign to me. :) Why did he come here in the first place?

We may be very wrong ... so maybe the cops will start showing up on forums where they can debate with people and go down a different path and take positive steps. I don't see any reason to commend cops on this forum, when they enforce laws they themselves don't agree with.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: kola on June 08, 2008, 07:54 PM NHFT
QuoteI don't see any reason to commend cops on this forum, when they enforce laws they themselves don't agree with.
 

yup, I just can't get buy it either.,,, its too damn hypocritical.
kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: FreelanceFreedomFighter on June 09, 2008, 09:01 AM NHFT
Quote from: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 11:15 AM NHFTThere are literally dozens of ways for people to subvert what you're trying to say and there are names for the ways they do it.

:clap:

Quote from: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 11:15 AM NHFTIt is my belief that these subversive tactics can always be exposed for they are.

"Always" is so.... ummmm.... "complete". Just like "never"... Unfortunately, those who are well-versed in these debating tactics (usually, but not necessarily, gubermint minions such as politicians, lawyers, cops and others of that ilk) are often able to sway the sheeple by twisting the "debate" into their own propaganda.

Quote from: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 11:15 AM NHFTChances are, their "answer" is going to be another subversive tactic which can be proven to be a subversive tactic.

As I said...  ;)

Quote from: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 11:15 AM NHFTIt takes time and patience.

I no longer have the time or the patience to waste on those who debate using deception, inveigling, and/or obfuscation. I have more important things to do with my life. Others, OTOH, are more than welcome to spend their time and patience.

Quote from: Rodinia on June 08, 2008, 11:15 AM NHFTI believe people are inherently good...

Now... if we could just get the cops, politicians, lawyers and other commie bastards (but I repeat myself ;) ) to feel that way, things would be much easier.

Fundamentally there are three situations in society... 1) People are inherently good, 2) people are inherently evil, 3) there is a mixture of good and evil people...

If "1" is true, then we don't need gubermint to legislate our lives because people being inherently good will "do the right thing" regarding others.

If "2" is true, then we don't need gubermint to legislate our lives because people being inherently evil means that those running the gubermint are inherently evil... and how can any gubermint that is inherently evil be trusted to legislate what "the right thing to do" is for everyone else.

If "3" is true, then why would we form a gubermint, such as we currently have, that allows the worst of the worst of the evil to rise to the top and grant them power over everyone else's lives... insuring that evil grows and gains power over those who are inherently good.

I was debating these things this past weekend with some LEO (local and Fed) family and "friends". I have one sister who absolutely refuses to discuss it with me anymore and I finally found out why. Underneath it all, she "gets it", but the fact is that her hubby isn't the "bread winner" in the family, so it falls on her shoulders to support the mortgage, the kids, the bills, the living expenses, etc. Basically, she told me that until she can find something else that gives her the hours/pay/benefits/etc, she can't leave... and as long as she's there, she feels like she has to do the job or risk standing out too much. I still have a problem with it, but at least I know she understands and will "use her discretion" as much as she can. BTW, she's with the Feds... Her hubby, OTOH, is very gung-ho, pro-JBT, and calls me names which he thinks are derogatory (but I take as compliments, such as anarchist, freedom-ranter, libertarian-whacko, etc...  :biglaugh: )

Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 08, 2008, 07:45 PM NHFTI don't see any reason to commend cops on this forum, when they enforce laws they themselves don't agree with.

Also the fact that cops often break (and allow each other to break) the very laws they use to harass the rest of us. Within their own ranks: Traffic laws don't apply to cops. Drug laws don't apply to cops. Gun laws don't apply to cops. Domestic Violence laws don't apply to cops.   And the list goes on and on... And none of them apply to politicians, cop "friends & family", or others who are "connected", unless that person happens to do something that pisses off a cop... then they can be harassed, setup, and brought down, just like the rest of us peons.

I firmly believe that there should be term limits... and I'm not talking about political office, I mean for cops and public employees. In the case of LEOs, the limit should be somewhere in the 6 year range (give or take a couple of years)... and after that time, no shuffling around to the department in the next town or up/down the levels between town, county, state, fed either. The reason I feel this is a good idea is that it would keep officers in check from simply harassing people, setting up people, being jerks, using the position as a means to get special privileges, etc. If someone is an LEO and they know that in ~6 years, they won't be an LEO, but instead will just be another private citizen driving around, then they will be far less likely to be a jerk and/or abuse the position simply because pretty soon, they're going to be the one who could get pulled over by the next person in that position that may be looking for a little payback for the way they were treated by you when you were the cop. I know that was kind of rambling, but it was just a thought...

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 09, 2008, 09:11 AM NHFT
they would look at things differently if they were not working towards retirement many years later
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 09, 2008, 09:17 AM NHFT
Who said anything about "commending" cops for joining the forum?

Quote from: kola on June 08, 2008, 07:54 PM NHFT
QuoteI don't see any reason to commend cops on this forum, when they enforce laws they themselves don't agree with.
 

yup, I just can't get buy it either.,,, its too damn hypocritical.
kola
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: John Edward Mercier on June 09, 2008, 03:30 PM NHFT
I like the term limit thing for LEOs...
But you forgot #4 Good and Evil are simply a POV. They are the mass valuation of individuals within the subset.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Rodinia on June 09, 2008, 05:28 PM NHFT
http://www.dixienet.org/rebellion/2008/05/heres-what-we-mean-by-police-state.html

Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: KBCraig on June 09, 2008, 05:38 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 09, 2008, 09:11 AM NHFT
they would look at things differently if they were not working towards retirement many years later

True. Without the threat of losing a pension, some might feel even less constrained to do bad things.
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: Jim Johnson on June 09, 2008, 05:47 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on June 09, 2008, 05:38 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on June 09, 2008, 09:11 AM NHFT
they would look at things differently if they were not working towards retirement many years later

True. Without the threat of losing a pension, some might feel even less constrained to do bad things.


That was my first thought.

As a politician...  help my friends, get what I can... burn everyone else.
Ya think that would make a good party platform?  Everyone would want to be my friend... if they thought I was going to win.   :ahoy:
Title: eeeeewwwwww...
Post by: FreelanceFreedomFighter on June 09, 2008, 08:29 PM NHFT

Musta touched a nerve with somebody... my "karma" took a hit.  ::)  :P
Title: Re: Russell Arrested 5/29/08 for no government drivers license
Post by: firecracker joe on June 10, 2008, 10:35 PM NHFT
all cops think alike and they all suck, doesnt matter what they say on a forum their goin out getting drunk with their cop buddies laughing at how their duping the free staters i for wish them good riddens. just my opinion. but i know what side im on!!!!!!!!!!!