New Hampshire Underground

Regional Discussion => The Shire => Topic started by: FTL_Ian on July 02, 2008, 03:06 PM NHFT

Title: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 02, 2008, 03:06 PM NHFT
I have been researching custom license plates and found a website ( Licenseplates.tv ) that can create custom full-color laser engraved plates with "state"-like embossed characters.  They said they can pretty much do anything that we envision.  Graphic specs are:

Quote
.eps vector files or 300 dpi for a 6" x 12" area


I'm not much of a graphic visionary but I would really like to have a Shire license plate to replace my old Florida gang plate.

What would you like to see on your car?  How would you design your Shire tag?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: dalebert on July 02, 2008, 03:14 PM NHFT
After you guys throw out some idea, maybe Puke and I can come up with something.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 02, 2008, 03:22 PM NHFT
After you guys throw out some idea, maybe Puke and I can come up with something.


Is "The Shire" the name of where we want to be?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 02, 2008, 04:01 PM NHFT
Suggest:
Porc Gadsden

Don't have PhotoShop at work or I'd put something together.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 02, 2008, 05:28 PM NHFT
After you guys throw out some idea, maybe Puke and I can come up with something.


Is "The Shire" the name of where we want to be?


I'd say leave the "the" out. Plates don't say "The New Hampshire".
Just "Shire" would be good IMO.

Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 02, 2008, 06:06 PM NHFT
Agreed.  Care to work something up?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 02, 2008, 07:28 PM NHFT
Agreed.  Care to work something up?

Sure. I have plenty of free time this weekend.
Don't wait up for it though. No promises on a quick turnaround.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 02, 2008, 07:31 PM NHFT
After you guys throw out some idea, maybe Puke and I can come up with something.
Is "The Shire" the name of where we want to be?
I think it sums it up best. It is an area ... and a certain kind of government ... and it is fun ... we could have a tree or leaf on the plate.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Kat Kanning on July 02, 2008, 07:38 PM NHFT
I was thinking something with trees on it.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: TackleTheWorld on July 03, 2008, 12:05 AM NHFT
New Hampshirey trees
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on July 03, 2008, 01:44 AM NHFT
Suggest:
Porc Gadsden

Don't have PhotoShop at work or I'd put something together.

Or with the original Gadsden:—

(http://i.eprci.net/shire-license-plate)

Although flat-color license plates aren’t that common anymore, meaning it would stand out and be a target for police. And the Gadsden yellow–orange makes me think of New York’s old license plates.

Maybe something to match Puke’s Shire driving license design?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Pat K on July 03, 2008, 01:57 AM NHFT
New Hampshirey trees



Must the plate have Snow on it? :(
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on July 03, 2008, 02:14 AM NHFT
New Hampshirey trees

Must the plate have Snow on it? :(

Maybe it should be entirely white, so it blends in. Note the poor attempt at camouflage on this plate, for example:—

(http://www.csc.cs.colorado.edu/~matthew/content/2001-12-blizzard/blizzard-02-l.jpg)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Pat K on July 03, 2008, 02:38 AM NHFT
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH my eyes my eyes!!
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 03, 2008, 09:17 AM NHFT
Suggest:
Porc Gadsden

Don't have PhotoShop at work or I'd put something together.

Or with the original Gadsden:—

(http://i.eprci.net/shire-license-plate)

Although flat-color license plates aren’t that common anymore, meaning it would stand out and be a target for police. And the Gadsden yellow–orange makes me think of New York’s old license plates.

Maybe something to match Puke’s Shire driving license design?

Looks nice.  Perhaps since trees are popular, there should be two versions.  Also, instead of an expiration date perhaps the infinity symbol would be good?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: David on July 03, 2008, 11:56 AM NHFT
Because the british would steal the better quality pines from new england, the pine became an early symbol of resistance. 
I favor using The Shire, or Shire, and a relatively dark plate.  The dark plate would be harder to read, which would make it easier to evade police scrutiny.  Maybe a fat pine tree in the middle, or even a mountain, since they are pretty.  It should look alot like typical gov't plates, though not the same thing, would want them to think we are trying to defraud them.  I like the infinity idea. 
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 03, 2008, 12:08 PM NHFT
to me The Shire and the Gadsden flag don't go well together

the new england flag was with one pine tree in the middle ... I also like the shire drivers certificates with the fall colors in the background :)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: David on July 03, 2008, 12:28 PM NHFT
My crude attempt. 
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 03, 2008, 12:40 PM NHFT
http://www.flagofnewengland.com/flaghome/Default.htm
http://www.fotw.us/Flags/us-neng.html

(http://www.fotw.us/images/u/us-neng3.gif)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 03, 2008, 05:46 PM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/Shire1.jpg)

My First Attempt

More to Follow
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 03, 2008, 06:26 PM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/Shire2.jpg)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Friday on July 03, 2008, 07:12 PM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/Shire2.jpg)
Nice!!
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 03, 2008, 07:16 PM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/Shire2.jpg)
uber cool
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Pat K on July 03, 2008, 07:22 PM NHFT
Yeah that one is real nice.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 03, 2008, 07:55 PM NHFT
Here is my go at it.

Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Pat K on July 03, 2008, 08:07 PM NHFT
Puke goes with the ever popular dead tree image. ;D
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 03, 2008, 08:22 PM NHFT
Puke goes with the ever popular dead tree image. ;D

Winter is longer than summer.
I also don't have images of leafy trees.  :-\
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 03, 2008, 08:24 PM NHFT
I kinda like yours Puke .... except for the death and destruction motif.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 03, 2008, 08:29 PM NHFT
I kinda like yours Puke .... except for the death and destruction motif.

I guess it's kind of death like... :-\
I was just using the colors for anarchy.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: JJ on July 03, 2008, 08:31 PM NHFT
I think that perhaps there should be no license ID number on the plate.  The Shire does not need to tag and catalog the travelers.  Maybe just a nice picture with "Shire" and "free to travel" or "Civil Disobedience". 

Not only would you not be partaking in the system but you are also sending a message to the other travelers on the road.  If you make the message a little more clear they might be more receptive to it.  I will try to get around to making one, heh, at the moment these prescribed narcotics are making me a little too high/drunk/drowsy to focus.  Interestingly enough when I smoke pot I don't have any problem with focusing.   :P
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Friday on July 03, 2008, 09:28 PM NHFT
Here is my go at it.


It's cool... but there's no way the cops are failing to notice that.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 03, 2008, 10:16 PM NHFT
The cops are going to notice either way.  They cannot be confused by an expired state gov tag this way though.

Ideally, it would become a sign to them that they are dealing with an activist, and they'd be best off leaving us be if we aren't putting anyone in danger.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 04, 2008, 12:09 AM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/GadPlate.jpg)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 04, 2008, 12:12 AM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/MyndiPlate.jpg)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 04, 2008, 12:18 AM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/JollyRoger.jpg)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 04, 2008, 12:21 AM NHFT
I think I'm done for now.
Please offer up any alterations you'd like to see.
Or suggestions, if you don't have Photoshop, I'll see what I can do.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on July 04, 2008, 01:50 AM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/Shire2.jpg)

My favorite, except I like “DONT TREAD ON ME” as the slogan.

I think making it look as much like a “real” license as possible is a good idea, so it will, in most situations, go unnoticed. But that doesn’t mean everyone has to have unique numbers on their plate. Maybe a bunch of people can get RSL·KNNG or LRA·CNRO…

As for the expiration date, I’d suggest just leaving it off, rather than putting a “?” there—in New Hampshire, they’re stickers anyway, not part of the plate, like in some states.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on July 04, 2008, 02:24 AM NHFT
I was looking around their website, and you could also have generic looking (i.e., stateless) license plates made using one of these (http://www.licenseplates.tv/cat/year_built_261.html) templates. It’ll take up to four characters (it’s meant to put the “year built” on the plate), for example:—

(http://www.licenseplates.tv/lpgenI.php?productId=usatlw1&text1=FREE) (http://www.licenseplates.tv/lpgenI.php?productId=usatrw1&text1=LFOD) (http://www.licenseplates.tv/lpgenI.php?productId=usatby1&text1=WOOT)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Friday on July 04, 2008, 03:39 AM NHFT
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/JollyRoger.jpg)
If someone produces this in cycle size, I will pay in cashy money for one.   :icon_motor:  :icon_pirat:
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 04, 2008, 06:56 AM NHFT
My favorite, except I like “DONT TREAD ON ME” as the slogan.

I think making it look as much like a “real” license as possible is a good idea, so it will, in most situations, go unnoticed. But that doesn’t mean everyone has to have unique numbers on their plate. Maybe a bunch of people can get RSL·KNNG or LRA·CNRO…

As for the expiration date, I’d suggest just leaving it off, rather than putting a “?” there—in New Hampshire, they’re stickers anyway, not part of the plate, like in some states.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/jraxver.jpg)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on July 04, 2008, 07:16 AM NHFT
Those are all very nice.  Now we just need to start jailing some bureaucrats to stamp them out for us.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on July 04, 2008, 08:27 AM NHFT
My favorite, except I like “DONT TREAD ON ME” as the slogan.

I think making it look as much like a “real” license as possible is a good idea, so it will, in most situations, go unnoticed. But that doesn’t mean everyone has to have unique numbers on their plate. Maybe a bunch of people can get RSL·KNNG or LRA·CNRO…

As for the expiration date, I’d suggest just leaving it off, rather than putting a “?” there—in New Hampshire, they’re stickers anyway, not part of the plate, like in some states.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk163/MayhemOfTheBlackUnderclass/jraxver.jpg)

Cool, although perhaps a tighter font (e.g., Arial Narrow), so it doesn’t get so close to the screws, and the original slogan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag) was actually missing the apostrophe.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 04, 2008, 09:41 AM NHFT
I like the pretty picture ones. We could have a variety. They all say Shire on the top or bottom ... but then they are different. :)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 04, 2008, 09:43 AM NHFT
If someone produces this in cycle size, I will pay in cashy money for one.   :icon_motor:  :icon_pirat:
I loved having full sized plates on my big quadcycle. I could put these plates on the sides, if we don't end up with small ones. :)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 04, 2008, 11:27 AM NHFT
Since some folks thought my first attempt was too morbid, I thought I'd make a proper death themed plate.  ;D
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 04, 2008, 11:37 AM NHFT
I'm thinking the embossed letters should say SOVEREIGN.  That should give them a good idea in advance of who they are dealing with.   :icon_pirat:
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Friday on July 04, 2008, 11:38 AM NHFT
Since some folks thought my first attempt was too morbid, I thought I'd make a proper death themed plate.  ;D
:rofl:
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 04, 2008, 12:55 PM NHFT
I'm thinking the embossed letters should say SOVEREIGN.  That should give them a good idea in advance of who they are dealing with.   :icon_pirat:

Please tell me you're kidding.  The would have to know the word, then understand the concept.  You'd have an easier time getting them to understand NTASLV, plus we're working with a 7 letter limit here.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Pat K on July 04, 2008, 02:32 PM NHFT
Since some folks thought my first attempt was too morbid, I thought I'd make a proper death themed plate.  ;D


No body does a proper death themed plate
as well as you do James. ;D
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on July 04, 2008, 02:35 PM NHFT
I'm thinking the embossed letters should say SOVEREIGN.  That should give them a good idea in advance of who they are dealing with.   :icon_pirat:

I'm sure they won't be able to wait to start confiscating their own collection.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 04, 2008, 02:41 PM NHFT
I'm thinking the embossed letters should say SOVEREIGN.  That should give them a good idea in advance of who they are dealing with.   :icon_pirat:

Please tell me you're kidding.  The would have to know the word, then understand the concept.  You'd have an easier time getting them to understand NTASLV, plus we're working with a 7 letter limit here.

Actually, there is not a letter limit.  But obviously the more letters there are, the smaller they will have to be.  I made a point of clarifying this issue with the company and they made it clear to me they could do virtually anything we present to them.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 04, 2008, 03:36 PM NHFT
I'm thinking the embossed letters should say SOVEREIGN.  That should give them a good idea in advance of who they are dealing with.   :icon_pirat:

Please tell me you're kidding.  The would have to know the word, then understand the concept.  You'd have an easier time getting them to understand NTASLV, plus we're working with a 7 letter limit here.
I have never been big on the "sovereign" thing. But since I might not be part of the first order, we don't have to design by committee.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 04, 2008, 03:42 PM NHFT
How about FREEMAN?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 04, 2008, 03:59 PM NHFT
sounds like a group from montana :)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 04, 2008, 04:02 PM NHFT
NO CONSENT? 
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 04, 2008, 05:22 PM NHFT
KYFHO
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 04, 2008, 05:24 PM NHFT
No body does a proper death themed plate
as well as you do James. ;D

Thank you sir.  :)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 05, 2008, 08:44 PM NHFT
KYFHO
Keep Your Friendly Hands Off?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Puke on July 05, 2008, 09:26 PM NHFT
Close, but not quite.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Pat K on July 05, 2008, 11:33 PM NHFT
Keep Your Fracking Hands Off.  ;)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 06, 2008, 09:50 AM NHFT
Thank Zeus that someone explained that one to me.
Frakking frakkers.  Why don't you go outside and play hide and go frak yourself?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Pat K on July 06, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
Thank Zeus that someone explained that one to me.
Frakking frakkers.  Why don't you go outside and play hide and go frak yourself?


 ;D
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Coconut on July 09, 2008, 10:02 PM NHFT
In my opinion, shire plates must be linked to some sort of database that "road authorities" can confirm your name/address etc if it wants to have any sort of legitimacy.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Kat Kanning on July 10, 2008, 08:54 AM NHFT
Why be legitimate?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Coconut on July 10, 2008, 10:14 AM NHFT
Why be legitimate?

For the purpose of pre-empting anyone's claims that a private system allows unsafe drivers on the road. There is a clear market demand for safety on the roads, and the ability to recognize cars by their "numbers." If a SHIRE plate was seen as the getaway car in a bank robbery, there would be a market demand to be able to track that vehicle.

Showing that a private system does all that shows that the government who prosecutes these people as the violent monopolistic people they are.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 10, 2008, 01:03 PM NHFT
it won't show it to the cops
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 10, 2008, 01:08 PM NHFT
In my opinion, shire plates must be linked to some sort of database that "road authorities" can confirm your name/address etc if it wants to have any sort of legitimacy.
how would the cops look up stuph in the database?
why would they bother?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Coconut on July 10, 2008, 01:09 PM NHFT
it won't show it to the cops
This is of course all my ideas, and I don't speak for anyone else interested in non-government driving

Not in their system, but if you had a website or phone database they could access, then they'd be able to see the information they seek. The information could be put behind a password that is only given out to officers at the vehicle owner's discretion so they can look at the information they want. Say somone saw a Shire plate in a hit and run. They would call the police station of course, but when the police learn it's a Shire plate, they would likely have a contact with us in order to call and get access to the database.

The phone number or website address would be on the plate most likely. And like I said, if the government was interested in safety and protection, they would be interested in gaining access to the database in the case of crimes or injustices. They also have less ground to stand on when saying "Well you're not registered, so I have no idea who you are."
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 11, 2008, 08:14 AM NHFT
that is kinda funny .... they could look up and see who I am

I realized I have room for a full sized plate on my bike and the van .... so I could go for 2 with pretty Shire scenery. :)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on July 11, 2008, 12:07 PM NHFT
I just got a dye sublimation printer (the kind that prints on vinyl blanks). The dye cartridge however is ~$400.  And with Ian having trouble getting 10 people to switch over to the non-state plates, I don't know if it would be a good idea to invest. 

I could do Shire Licenses as well.

Any interest, ideas?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: les nessman on July 11, 2008, 02:20 PM NHFT
   When the "law" prepares for a traffic stop, they run the plates through a nationwide computer
database and the plate would probably come up simply "NOT ON FILE", which happens
occasionally to even so called "valid" government issued plates, especially when traveling
out of state.  No bureaucracy is efficient, and sometimes they even leave some loopholes. :)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 11, 2008, 04:17 PM NHFT
I just got a dye sublimation printer (the kind that prints on vinyl blanks). The dye cartridge however is ~$400.  And with Ian having trouble getting 10 people to switch over to the non-state plates, I don't know if it would be a good idea to invest. 

I could do Shire Licenses as well.

Any interest, ideas?

Can it emboss?  The website I found can do that and full color laser engraving.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Coconut on July 11, 2008, 04:55 PM NHFT
   When the "law" prepares for a traffic stop, they run the plates through a nationwide computer
database and the plate would probably come up simply "NOT ON FILE", which happens
occasionally to even so called "valid" government issued plates, especially when traveling
out of state.  No bureaucracy is efficient, and sometimes they even leave some loopholes. :)

I'm not sure what you are getting at. You're saying that the government system is never 100% correct, and I think everyone here already knows that. I'm not sure if you have had many encounters with police, but they don't like not knowing who you are. Even if you're on the street not driving, if they have any reason to talk to you, the first question is almost always "Do you have any ID on you?"

A Shire database at least gives the private system more legitimacy than some Joe that prints himself a registration sticker from his computer.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 11, 2008, 09:58 PM NHFT
I just got a dye sublimation printer (the kind that prints on vinyl blanks). The dye cartridge however is ~$400.  And with Ian having trouble getting 10 people to switch over to the non-state plates, I don't know if it would be a good idea to invest. 

I could do Shire Licenses as well.

Any interest, ideas?
It might make sense to make the plates one at a time. We could have the same name at the top or bottom and other things could be different. :)
I could use a plate for my bike (regular size), just to start letting the cops get used to the idea. I don't know how many other people need ones though.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: cynthia on October 15, 2008, 07:08 PM NHFT
The infinity symbol is brilliant.

How about a holographic style, where it appears to do different things at different angles.

Or, an emperor's clothes type of plate, where there is really nothing on it, except you can try to convince the sow that pulled you over that you must be at a certain intelligence to see it.

(These are not practical ideas, but I don't believe that cars should have to display ANY identification. It's absurd.)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on October 29, 2008, 04:24 PM NHFT
Now that I have another car, I can move ahead with this project.  However, after reviewing this thread, I am still quite undecided on how to approach this.

Should it have identifying letters/digits, or not? There are good points made on both sides.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on October 29, 2008, 04:26 PM NHFT
I think that perhaps there should be no license ID number on the plate.  The Shire does not need to tag and catalog the travelers.  Maybe just a nice picture with "Shire" and "free to travel" or "Civil Disobedience". 

Not only would you not be partaking in the system but you are also sending a message to the other travelers on the road.  If you make the message a little more clear they might be more receptive to it. 

I'm leaning towards this viewpoint....
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on October 29, 2008, 04:43 PM NHFT
However something like this could really confuse some bureaucrats:
(http://www.licenseplates.tv/images/ipbs0ky.gif)

It could say "Keene" at the top, "Shire" at the bottom, and have whatever numbers/letters in the middle...  tough decision.  Anyone else have thoughts on whether these should appear legit, as though they are actually from the Shire, or be more of a message plate as JJ suggests?

Also, is it "The Shire" or just "Shire"?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on October 29, 2008, 04:46 PM NHFT
Or maybe it should be "The" at the top and "Shire" at the bottom...
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: SamIam on October 29, 2008, 04:47 PM NHFT
I'm with Mark on the numbers. I think there is a very real need to be able to identify a car leaving the scene of an accident or intentional act where property was damaged or people were injured.

I also think it needs to contain the word "Private"
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on October 29, 2008, 04:47 PM NHFT
For a unique number, perhaps a phone number?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on October 29, 2008, 04:50 PM NHFT
I'm with Mark on the numbers. I think there is a very real need to be able to identify a car leaving the scene of an accident or intentional act where property was damaged or people were injured.

Good point, but there's no way to guarantee someone else won't take out the same number.  So any numbering just amounts to good intentions.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on October 29, 2008, 05:01 PM NHFT
What about this?
(http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp314/FTL_Ian/ShirePlate.jpg)

Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on October 29, 2008, 05:23 PM NHFT
I think that perhaps there should be no license ID number on the plate.  The Shire does not need to tag and catalog the travelers.  Maybe just a nice picture with "Shire" and "free to travel" or "Civil Disobedience". 

Not only would you not be partaking in the system but you are also sending a message to the other travelers on the road.  If you make the message a little more clear they might be more receptive to it.

I'm leaning towards this viewpoint....

I like this idea, too. Even if a plate isn’t a State-issued plate, if it has a unique ID on it, it’s still aiding the bastards in tracking you. If half a dozen people get “SHIRE” plates, on the other hand…
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on October 29, 2008, 05:47 PM NHFT
I don't care if they know where I am.  They already do.  I care they leave me alone.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: sandm000 on October 30, 2008, 01:43 PM NHFT
If you want them to leave you alone, make the plate look like everybody else's.

Are there any statistics concerning how many time out-of-state drivers are pulled over than in state?

But if you were to put anything in the center, I would be juvenile about it "80085"
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: bigmike on October 31, 2008, 03:46 PM NHFT
i came across this site http://www.embassyofheaven.com/ and spent a few days reading most of it.

it gives a good perspective on right to travel from a christian point of view and the embassy itself creates their own privately-issued id cards, birth certificates, driver licenses, passports and license plates. they also have a verifiable database.

one thing i noticed in reading testimonials from embassy members' experiences is the police usually removed the license plates from the vehicle after arrest. the shire plate idea is great, but order duplicates.

the embassy provides an excellent template for private id. if you consider yourself christian there are excellent sources of scripture that you could use to defend your right to travel. 

Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 01, 2008, 12:41 AM NHFT
I like all the ideas ... even the ones that conflict with each other ;)

If I had a Shire license plate, I would go with very similar to US state plates and no numbers, but maybe a cute phrase.

I would say that the plate would say "Shire" somewhere.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on November 01, 2008, 07:12 AM NHFT
I'm with Mark on the numbers. I think there is a very real need to be able to identify a car leaving the scene of an accident or intentional act where property was damaged or people were injured.

I also think it needs to contain the word "Private"

I've thought for a long time that the present state by state auto registration system could be replaced by a numberplate riveted onto the car at manufacture that transfers from owner to owner. A database could be established to keep track of the transfers so the owner can be identified.
Not the plateless situation we, probably, all want, but, an inexpensive alternative to the present systems.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: William on November 01, 2008, 11:58 AM NHFT
Start with SVRGN-00 and work up to SVRGN-99. You'll have quite the movement if you get that far.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on November 03, 2008, 12:34 AM NHFT
I'm with Mark on the numbers. I think there is a very real need to be able to identify a car leaving the scene of an accident or intentional act where property was damaged or people were injured.

I also think it needs to contain the word "Private"

I've thought for a long time that the present state by state auto registration system could be replaced by a numberplate riveted onto the car at manufacture that transfers from owner to owner. A database could be established to keep track of the transfers so the owner can be identified.
Not the plateless situation we, probably, all want, but, an inexpensive alternative to the present systems.

VIN number?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on November 03, 2008, 10:02 AM NHFT
Forgive my chiming in here a bit late, but I support this idea, am highly interested, and I'm against tracking against my will (by government).  I wouldn't mind seeing a blank plate with no numbers on it.  Maybe it can read "allodial" or something, denoting that the government doesn't have a partial share or co-ownership as the registration process is really all about (registering the vehicle gives the government co-ownership quite literally; another excuse to extort from, and govern you/us).
If we are prepared to join in this dis as a group, then we have a better chance of making the house of cards (govt) be better understood for what it truly is.

Badnarik on property rights: (Best from 4:30 on)
 <<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MKFNnpqHrEA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MKFNnpqHrEA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Wiki on allodial:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial)

Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: SamIam on November 11, 2008, 12:56 PM NHFT
I'm with Mark on the numbers. I think there is a very real need to be able to identify a car leaving the scene of an accident or intentional act where property was damaged or people were injured.

I also think it needs to contain the word "Private"

I've thought for a long time that the present state by state auto registration system could be replaced by a numberplate riveted onto the car at manufacture that transfers from owner to owner. A database could be established to keep track of the transfers so the owner can be identified.
Not the plateless situation we, probably, all want, but, an inexpensive alternative to the present systems.

VIN number?

VIN Number has the magic word "Vehicle" in it, which is subject to licensing. The best example I"ve heard so far is a guy in NC who corrected the cops/courts every time they called it a vehicle. He corrects their claim and informs them it's a private automobile. That's for NC, but NH may be different. To beat the system this way, it requires a lot of time reading the laws, but I've come across a number of cases that win with this approach. (Until they sometimes change the rules)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: bigmike on November 14, 2008, 02:34 AM NHFT


VIN Number has the magic word "Vehicle" in it, which is subject to licensing. The best example I"ve heard so far is a guy in NC who corrected the cops/courts every time they called it a vehicle. He corrects their claim and informs them it's a private automobile. That's for NC, but NH may be different. To beat the system this way, it requires a lot of time reading the laws, but I've come across a number of cases that win with this approach. (Until they sometimes change the rules)
[/quote]

sam, could you post the cases?

i keep debunking the "right to travel" arguments and am looking for caselaw that is original and recent.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: www on December 03, 2008, 07:00 PM NHFT
I'm against tracking against my will (by government).
I came across an interesting NH law, RSA 236:130 which says that neither the state nor any subdivision (town, county) can use video or any other means to record the identity of anyone coming and going (with exceptions though). The idea of automatically recording speeding comes up now and then, the eztags allow that, and are used for that, though not, that I know of, for issuing tickets. Historically I remember hearing rumors in other states of getting off a tollway and being handed a ticket for speeding instead of a receipt, but I suspect that it's just an urban legend. Some of the EZtag systems work up to 200 mph, and have recorded speeds of upwards of 160 mph in normal operations.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Pat McCotter on December 04, 2008, 03:34 AM NHFT
RSA 236:130 II(e) (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/RSA/html/XX/236/236-130.htm) is the EZ-Pass exception.

Tis was added in 2007 with SB41. That bill also added RSA 261:75-a (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXI/261/261-75-a.htm) that allows cops to do a plate check whether or not they think a crime was committed. I e-mailed the sponsor of the bill trying to get him to rethink that. I didn't change his mind on that but did get him to add RSA 261:75-b (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXI/261/261-75-b.htm) that prohibits automatic plate scanning devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition).

Also read Bruce Schneier's OpEd on plate scanning (http://www.schneier.com/essay-057.html).
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on December 13, 2008, 08:51 PM NHFT
The moment the come off the presses, I want one.  Actually, I want four of them.  Two for the cars, one for the travel trailer and one for the garden trailer.
We just registered our private automobiles and travel trailers in LLC's that are out of state.  The Travel Trailer plate is a permanent plate.  We should have signed the registrations "without prejudice UCC 1-207" but we signed them "all rights reserved" at least.
Years ago in Nashua I got pulled over for squat, they ran my plates, found I didn't have my head and eyes forward and was not bowing to their extortion clouts, so they pulled me over and wrecked my day.  The words "never again" apply to me.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 13, 2008, 09:03 PM NHFT
The UCC code number changed anyway.  All rights reserved makes more sense to me.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on December 13, 2008, 10:37 PM NHFT
The UCC code number changed anyway.  All rights reserved makes more sense to me.
Ditto
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on December 14, 2008, 07:37 PM NHFT
The UCC code number changed anyway.  All rights reserved makes more sense to me.

“All rights reserved” is nice and generic, and could be argued, when needed, to apply to the UCC theory (which I think is unsubstantiated, anyway) or any other attempt by the State to infringe upon your rights seemingly with your consent. It’s simple, and forthright: You’re refusing to abrogate whatever rights they may be trying to get you to implicitly or unknowingly sign away by signing the form.

I’ve gotten in the habit of using this on any forms dealing with the State or State-affiliated entities, e.g., banks.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on December 15, 2008, 10:19 PM NHFT
The UCC code number changed anyway.  All rights reserved makes more sense to me.

“All rights reserved” is nice and generic, and could be argued, when needed, to apply to the UCC theory (which I think is unsubstantiated, anyway) or any other attempt by the State to infringe upon your rights seemingly with your consent. It’s simple, and forthright: You’re refusing to abrogate whatever rights they may be trying to get you to implicitly or unknowingly sign away by signing the form.

I’ve gotten in the habit of using this on any forms dealing with the State or State-affiliated entities, e.g., banks.
We're reading "Sovereign Covenant, Without Prejudice, UCC 1-207" by William Dixon.  It's really weird getting going in the thing.  It's one of those books that I read at bed time that I could either choose to read manically until I never sleep again, or just decide to pass out into it.  It's freakin' weird.  I hope it gets better as I drag myself to it again tonight to see if I can take another page of odd analogies.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on December 22, 2008, 03:36 PM NHFT
Say, are these things near ready for purchase yet?  I'm ready to buy at least two but maybe four of them.
Also (this may be best to do the moment we can get these printed out) I think we ought to have a parade of Shire plate driving people in their private automobiles, cruising through Main Street, or maybe even through a checkpoint of some kind.
That may be best discussed, when appropriate, in a new thread.  I'm ready to do this.  This excites the hell out of me.  When oh when???  Let's roll!  :icon_motor:
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 22, 2008, 04:56 PM NHFT
I never heard back from licenseplates.tv, so I sent another email. 
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: TackleTheWorld on December 22, 2008, 11:19 PM NHFT
  I'm ready to do this.  This excites the hell out of me.  When oh when???  Let's roll!  :icon_motor:

If you can't wait, souvenir plates are available.  I used this one for a year or so. (http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/las-vegas-souvenirs/license-plates-and-vinyl-magnets/area-51-nevada-license-plate-488.php)  Hopefully you will be more successful than me with it.

(http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/cached/_images/_composite/2c9b8155f3e3c91d3f3479d1b57233fc-410-600.png)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 23, 2008, 01:11 AM NHFT
I never heard back from licenseplates.tv, so I sent another email. 

They responded quickly this time saying $75 per plate.  I'm checking to see if they'll send me a proof graphic prior to press for final approval.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 23, 2008, 01:15 PM NHFT
Because of my special order it ended up being $100 including shipping.  You may want to wait and see what mine looks like prior to ordering your own.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on December 23, 2008, 07:33 PM NHFT
Because of my special order it ended up being $100 including shipping.  You may want to wait and see what mine looks like prior to ordering your own.
Next time I see you I'd love to take a look at it.  Where we have the private automobiles registered (in an LLC - great for driving without Nazi government papers) they only require a plate on the back rather than on both ends.  Shire plates will be on the front and eventually on BOTH ENDS!  ;D
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on December 23, 2008, 08:46 PM NHFT
  I'm ready to do this.  This excites the hell out of me.  When oh when???  Let's roll!  :icon_motor:

If you can't wait, souvenir plates are available.  I used this one for a year or so. (http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/las-vegas-souvenirs/license-plates-and-vinyl-magnets/area-51-nevada-license-plate-488.php)  Hopefully you will be more successful than me with it.

(http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/cached/_images/_composite/2c9b8155f3e3c91d3f3479d1b57233fc-410-600.png)
I can wait.  I think what we need to do is to go get a bunch of people's cars/trucks all plated up, maybe even send a notice to the false authorities (state) and let them know what we are doing so we can maybe open a few minds.  How does that sound to you?
Seriously...  did you drive with that thing?  I love it!
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: error on December 24, 2008, 07:18 AM NHFT
I saw one of those Las Vegas Nevada plates in Manchester (one issued by the state, that is). The souvenir is very believable as it looks almost exactly like the one issued by the state. About the only way a cop could tell the difference is if he runs the number through his computer. Or reads this forum.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 24, 2008, 08:21 AM NHFT
Yeah the Area 51 tag on the Laurenmobile fooled me. I was like "Gee how did you get so lucky as to get that personalized plate." ;D
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on December 24, 2008, 08:35 AM NHFT
Exactly what I thought the first time I saw it ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on December 24, 2008, 09:29 AM NHFT
Aubern and I say "She's so cool"  8)

Maybe we all ought to get those.  They are only a few bucks and I can see a big cruise right down Main St in Keene or mayby in Manch Vegas or on the beach this summer...  hmmm...  Hampton anyone?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: www on December 25, 2008, 10:02 PM NHFT
Standard winter plates. Gov't issue.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on December 29, 2008, 05:26 PM NHFT
Standard winter plates. Gov't issue.

mAssachusetts cops have started ticketing people for that.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: www on December 30, 2008, 02:06 AM NHFT
Standard winter plates. Gov't issue.

mAssachusetts cops have started ticketing people for that.

Ahh, trying to make up that $1.4 Billion deficit I see. What fools.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: William on January 02, 2009, 01:47 PM NHFT
Aubern and I say "She's so cool"  8)

Is it white boy day yet?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on January 04, 2009, 11:41 PM NHFT
Standard winter plates. Gov't issue.
Yeah, mine finally came off today on a drive up to Grafton.  I was and am hoping to get pulled over soon.  The truck is owned in an llc out of state.  This is gonna be fun edgumicatin' da cops!
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: AntonLee on January 05, 2009, 12:13 AM NHFT
Standard winter plates. Gov't issue.

mAssachusetts cops have started ticketing people for that.

an old acquaintence Cliff once told me that his big rig was in the car wash with the sprayer in his hand when a cop pulled up behind him and ticketed him for an overly dirty license plate.  (he fought it and judge sided with the cop, the law IS the law after all)

M-A  we love it?  No Randy Newman, we do not love M-A
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on January 05, 2009, 01:34 AM NHFT
Standard winter plates. Gov't issue.

mAssachusetts cops have started ticketing people for that.

an old acquaintence Cliff once told me that his big rig was in the car wash with the sprayer in his hand when a cop pulled up behind him and ticketed him for an overly dirty license plate.  (he fought it and judge sided with the cop, the law IS the law after all)

M-A  we love it?  No Randy Newman, we do not love M-A
Why am I still surprised?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 05, 2009, 07:19 AM NHFT
I got a plate from the website and it looks really professional but they screwed up the number.  Pic attached.  They're making and shipping me the correct version - so I have an extra.  Do you want it, Lumpy? 
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: TackleTheWorld on January 05, 2009, 11:27 AM NHFT
Koowell!
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on January 06, 2009, 08:28 PM NHFT
I got a plate from the website and it looks really professional but they screwed up the number.  Pic attached.  They're making and shipping me the correct version - so I have an extra.  Do you want it, Lumpy? 
HELLS YEAH!!!!!!!!

THANKS!!!!!!!

Pick it up at social Sunday?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 06, 2009, 09:19 PM NHFT
Sure.  I'll make a note to bring it.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on January 07, 2009, 05:59 AM NHFT
Sure.  I'll make a note to bring it.
:worship: :thanks: :broc1:
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Coconut on February 01, 2009, 01:58 PM NHFT
I still don't understand wanting your phone number on your car.

Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on February 01, 2009, 05:15 PM NHFT
I still don't understand wanting your phone number on your car.


I second that but it sure could be interesting if the cop calls him while he's inside the car because he doesn't have to open his window for him or sometihng.  :)  I'm imagining the reasons and some of them I like...  the DJ stalker chicks might run up the cell bill though.

THANKS IAN!!!  I plan on civil dissing with the plates...  is "civil dissing" dissing or what is it? :P
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: AntonLee on February 01, 2009, 05:38 PM NHFT
hehe that's funny
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: K. Darien Freeheart on February 01, 2009, 06:52 PM NHFT
I suspect Ian would have it go to an FTL Call-In Line. :D
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 02, 2009, 07:22 AM NHFT
I still don't understand wanting your phone number on your car.



It's a unique identifying number.  What's not to understand about that?
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: dalebert on February 02, 2009, 06:34 PM NHFT
I still don't understand wanting your phone number on your car.

I've seen bumper stickers that say "Don't like my driving? Call 1-800-EAT-SHIT"
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Roycerson on February 02, 2009, 07:04 PM NHFT
I still don't understand wanting your phone number on your car.

Advertising for your black market business.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on February 06, 2009, 11:54 AM NHFT
I still don't understand wanting your phone number on your car.



It's a unique identifying number.  What's not to understand about that?
Not a dang thang.  It might also help in your old age when you fall asleep at a red light.  The person behind you can call you and if your hearing is decent enough, you can hear the ringer and talk to them for a while.  Maybe you will make a new friend.   ;)
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on February 06, 2009, 12:29 PM NHFT
Okay, maybe I should start a new thread for this but I think that spring is a good time to get "together" and address this topic publicly, as a group.
Not that I don't want to be the only one doing it but I think the statement will be far stronger when we are doing this as a group.
Here is what I see.  A press release saying that some time in the spring a pile of people will be driving through central square and up and down Main St Keene (parade perhaps?) with no gov't identification, marking on their private automobiles, no permission asked of any supposed authority telling us that we can travel or not, wearing or not wearing seat belts, talking or not talking on cell phones, flying "Free Mike Barskey" flags, packing heat or not packing heat, or whatever.  Call me the freakin' organizer if you want. I absolutely hate that some supposed self appointed entity inhibits my comings and goings.  I'm going to use the plate Ian gave me and I'm not giving up my private traveling device, and they can try to arrest me but I won't let it happen (yeah, try me).  I'm going to be prepared as I know in my heart of hearts that they have no right to do so.  Not that I'm going to be violent or anything like that.  Words are far more powerful, and especially the way they are said, to cops and others who imagine they have power over others.  If I don't sell my Benz by then, I might just drive it.
Emotions aside, I'd like to know if you guys think a lot of folks will be interested in simply traveling down Main St in Keene and doing a "parade" or more reply, you are the ones I want to hear from.  Do you feel this will make an impact?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Tear my ass-offs? 
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 06, 2009, 12:34 PM NHFT
I'd say an idea that good deserves its own thread.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Mike Barskey on February 06, 2009, 12:43 PM NHFT
It sounds like a good - and fun - idea. In fact, why don't we make it an actual parade, with a theme that the public might want to see. I don't mean that we make floats and hire marching bands (although if a marching band wanted to volunteer to perform... :) ), but I mean maybe advertise it as "Keene-is-the-Most-Free-City-in-NH-Parade" and have it during the lunch hour so people might take 15 minutes off work to watch. It would be good to have the public around to witness the cops trying to hassle and arrest and cite people freely traveling and trying to spread the word that "Keene is Most Free City."
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Lumpy on February 07, 2009, 12:04 PM NHFT
It sounds like a good - and fun - idea. In fact, why don't we make it an actual parade, with a theme that the public might want to see. I don't mean that we make floats and hire marching bands (although if a marching band wanted to volunteer to perform... :) ), but I mean maybe advertise it as "Keene-is-the-Most-Free-City-in-NH-Parade" and have it during the lunch hour so people might take 15 minutes off work to watch. It would be good to have the public around to witness the cops trying to hassle and arrest and cite people freely traveling and trying to spread the word that "Keene is Most Free City."
Mike, you must know that part of this is fuel added by your challenge by the thugs.  Also, I've had my fill of this kind of BS.  The parade idea is fantastic.  We can use trucks and even make floats and banners...  or not...  after all, this is the Most Free City in NH Parade, is it not?  I hope you dont' have some commonlaw copyright on that  because I'm going to use it. ;)
Maybe we can have a sign painting party prior to the event itself.  :)
Any more comments and ideas will be on the new thread.  I'll try to get that up today if I can.  Still out of state but the forums are easy beanz ta git ta.
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 15, 2011, 09:27 AM NHFT
I was thinking about this lately. Is anyone currently using one of these plates or similar?
I am contemplating putting the "Linux" plates on my car that I got from el presidente
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Evan on June 28, 2011, 11:05 PM NHFT
Here's the Peace Plate for my Solar Trike:

(http://kogwaki.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Peace-Plate.png)

It's got some colorful anarchist flags across the top. There's the name of my sovereign nano-nation, Kôgw Aki, down where states usually go. To the right of that is a Shire logo, but I'm open to suggestions on better ones. And in the bottom right corner is the Earth. I'm thinking I will carve and paint it out of a block of wood.

Oh yeah, and here's the latest version of my flag:

(http://kogwaki.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/kogw-aki-heart.gif)

But I only have the fabric for the two main colors, so for now I'll just be flying something that looks like this:

(http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/esternarx__404211.png)

Eco-agorism represent.

Photos will be posted when I put it all together.  :P
Title: Re: Shire License Plates
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 29, 2011, 04:27 PM NHFT
solar trike?
lemme see lemmee see