Apparently Manchester parks have a curfew—$50 fine for being in a park after 11 PM or before 7 AM—and they're now actually enforcing this. (What with all the other news (http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=813.0) coming out about the new police chief, David Mara, should anyone be surprised?)
Sounds easy enough to contest this one—a group of us go over to Veteran's Park after Taproom Tuesday next week?
QuoteSome surprised by city's curfew crackdown
By KATHRYN MARCHOCKI
New Hampshire Union Leader Staff
MANCHESTER – Like many other residents, Teddy DeJesus thinks Victory Park is one of the city's prettiest. He often brings his laptop there and surfs the Internet off the city library's wireless connection. He uses it as a shortcut on his way home and enjoys strolling through it with his girlfriend after an evening downtown.
What he didn't know was he could get a ticket for it.
DeJesus, 20, is one of several dozen people who either were cited for violating park curfew or said they were ordered out of parks this month by police stepping up curfew enforcement.
"We weren't causing any trouble or anything. We were just out for a walk," DeJesus said yesterday of the $50 violation police gave him Aug. 9 for being in the park past the 11 p.m. curfew.
More troubling to the aspiring personal trainer was learning the hard way that city parks even have curfews. DeJesus said he got up the next morning and walked around the entire park looking for a sign. There is none.
"It would have been nice if they had given us a warning. There are a lot of people who don't know there is a curfew," added DeJesus, who works at Pitco Frialator Inc. in Bow. He pleaded guilty to the violation in Manchester District Court in exchange for a reduced $25 fine.
In the last eight days alone, two dozen people were on the court docket for violating curfews at Veterans Memorial, Bronstein, Derryfield, Victory and other city parks. Of the 16 set to appear yesterday, several pleaded not guilty and opted to go to trial to protest the lack of a posted curfew hours.
City ordinance sets an 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. curfew at all parks. The curfew begins at 9 p.m. at parks with playground equipment. Violations carry a $50 fine. The money goes into the city's general revenue fund.
Police said they are stepping up enforcement of those who not only violate park curfews, but a host of other ordinances designed to curb nuisance behavior.
"It's the speeding, the loud mufflers, the loud radios, the illegally parked vehicles. These are the kind of things that upset people and they call and complain about it," Deputy Chief Marc Lussier said of the increased crackdown on ordinance violations.
The effort is part of what law enforcers call the "fixing the broken window theory."
"The theory is you can head off a lot of the more serious quality of life issues by addressing the day-in and day-out issues," Lt. Robert Cunha said.
He said police also are ramping up enforcement of ordinances barring alcohol in public parks and lounging in public doorways. It's part of an effort to ensure people who live in urban neighborhoods enjoy the same quality of life and rights as those who live elsewhere in the city, he said.
Park-goers speak up
Park-goers have mixed feelings about the curfew crackdown.
Deborah P. Quayle spread out a picnic lunch on a sunny patch of grass in Victory Park for herself and her two children before they headed to the city library across the street. Nearby, a group of men played whiffle ball and downtown workers grabbed quick lunch breaks on park benches.
"It's just a wonderful place to come," Quayle, 38, explained. Too nice, she added, to restrict its use to 11 p.m. She suggested pushing the curfew back an hour so people who want to enjoy Victory Park for legitimate reasons are not driven away.
"It's a little early, especially with so much stuff going on downtown with the Verizon and all the restaurants. It's a very romantic thing after dinner to walk around a little bit and chat," Quayle said.
Heidi A. Campbell, 29, steered her two children past a row of occupied park benches as they headed to the library. She likes the stepped-up enforcement and thinks 11 p.m. is an appropriate curfew.
"At night, the parks are pitch dark. There shouldn't be anybody in here past a certain time. If there is, something's wrong," Campbell said.
Not far away, about 10 friends hold court on the brick steps in the park's center. All said they suffer from injuries or other disabilities that make them unable to work. They come to the park daily to escape the boredom and stifling summer heat of their tiny apartments and boarding house rooms.
"We just chill here," said Mike Thompson, 32, who recently moved here from Charlestown, Mass. "We're not the type of people who rob and steal and cause trouble."
They support the 11 p.m. curfew but claim some police officers have been pushing them out hours earlier.
He and his friends feel they are being forced out because some view them as riff-raff, even though they said they don't bother anyone or violate ordinances.
"A lot of us are afraid to go home because of the simple fact that there is no one home at night," added Felicia Wilson, 22, of 120 Myrtle St.
Manchester City Library security officer Bonnie Wood-Owens said she has seen an influx of homeless people coming into Victory Park and other smaller parks since the city began pushing them out of Veterans Memorial Park earlier this summer.
"They excluded them from being there because some people didn't like the looks of it," Wood-Owens said.
Veterans Memorial Park has one of the few public restrooms downtown. Many homeless now resort to using the library's restrooms during the day when the shelters are closed, she said.
"We're the only facility they can use for the bathroom and get out of the weather -- and it's really sad," she said.
"You are not going to get rid of the homeless ... not with this economy. I always say, 'There I go if not for the grace of God,'" she added.
But Deputy Lussier said the enhanced enforcement targets only those who cause trouble or violate ordinances.
"If they are not doing anything illegal, we are not going to bother them. It's the people who are drinking and urinating and violating the park curfew and that kind of thing."
As a side note, the "broken window" theory was something Giuliani was in love with when he was mayor of New York City.
Head over to that park while open carrying... 8)
Quote from: Porcupine on August 27, 2008, 10:20 PM NHFT
Head over to that park and open carrying... 8)
Good idea!
Sounds like a good opportunity to test reactions to several different subjects:
- Young mother pushing a baby stroller
- Avid runner obviously exercising
- Straight couple strolling hand-in-hand
- Gay couple doing the same
- Open carry group
Just to prove the idiocy, it might not be a bad idea to do this at 0630 instead of 2330. With lots of video. ;-)
This is about cracking down on the homeless. But in the cops' zeal for enforcement, everybody who goes into a park gets caught up in it.
I would cut through Victory Park all the time in the middle of the night on the way to and from the Red Arrow Diner. Apparently I'll get a ticket if I do that again.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on August 27, 2008, 10:18 PM NHFT
Apparently Manchester parks have a curfew—$50 fine for being in a park after 11 PM or before 7 AM—and they're now actually enforcing this. (What with all the other news (http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=813.0) coming out about the new police chief, David Mara, should anyone be surprised?)
Sounds easy enough to contest this one—a group of us go over to Veteran's Park after Taproom Tuesday next week?
Maybe not drink before hand?
what day did the union leader article come out?
what do you guys think about ditching the white mountains litter pickup and instead taking the outlaw puppeteer event to a manchester park at 6 a.m.?
that would violate the newly enforced manchester curfew (blue light operatives have been shaking down harmless parkgoers for being in city parks between 11 and 7...or in some cases between *9* and 7!)
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=15179.0
this would be more timely than the white mountains thing, and nearby, and it won't interfere with all the sept 6 and 7 political activities. and it goes against a rule that is enforced , rather than one which probably isn't.
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=15179.0
i'm thinking 6 a.m. friday sept. 5.
thoughts?
here's a draft note for bureaucrats if we decide to move forward with this... thoughts? suggested improvements?
Dear ____:
On August 27 the New Hampshire Union Leader reported your organization has begun extorting money from harmless, average citizens..simply for being in Manchester parks between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m.
It's one thing to fine people for causing harm, another to go after them when they pose no threat. It's one thing to issue warnings, another to force money out of pockets. Your department aggresses all to often against the harmless, shaking them down instead of protecting them. But who protects them from you?
In protest of your questionable practices - and in support of your victims - I will "illegally" enter Veterans' Park at 6:00 a.m. on ______. I and perhaps others will conduct beautification activities in violation of your greedily enforced curfew.
If fined for this constructive endeavor, I won't pay. If your enforcers order me to leave, I won't comply. You'll need to choose between attacking or ignoring us. If you choose the latter, expect us to return at a later date; expect us to bring more people, expect us to peaceably repeat the "crime."
With increasing disappointment in your authoritarian reign,
Dave Ridley
NHFree.com
I think the WM litter pick up is silly to try to get ticketed.....AFAIK you are violating federal law. Unless it is on Mt. Washington's peak or in Franconia Notch State Park. I also highly doubt that they will ticket you or even question you about picking up trash. You would need to do something more like moving big rocks/actual real maintenance of the park (grooming trails, clearing brush off the trails, etc)..
The park sounds like a better idea. I would do it open carrying and doing a litter clean up.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 28, 2008, 07:49 AM NHFT
what do you guys think about ditching the white mountains litter pickup and instead taking the outlaw puppeteer event to a manchester park at 6 a.m.?
that would violate the newly enforced manchester curfew (blue light operatives have been shaking down harmless parkgoers for being in city parks between 11 and 7...or in some cases between *9* and 7!)
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=15179.0
this would be more timely than the white mountains thing, and nearby, and it won't interfere with all the sept 6 and 7 political activities. and it goes against a rule that is enforced , rather than one which probably isn't.
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=15179.0
i'm thinking 6 a.m. friday sept. 5.
thoughts?
would anyone be willing to be an alternate contact for the media on my tentative news release about this?
i'd like to list your email and phone
Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 28, 2008, 07:41 AM NHFT
what day did the union leader article come out?
2008-08-27. I forgot to link to it (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?articleId=1b1b1e9c-bb4b-43af-98ce-f90d4fc3a7fa).
Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 28, 2008, 07:49 AM NHFT
what do you guys think about ditching the white mountains litter pickup and instead taking the outlaw puppeteer event to a manchester park at 6 a.m.?
...
i'm thinking 6 a.m. friday sept. 5.
Sounds good to me.
By default, I'd expect to see them more likely to enforce this law late at night than early in the morning. Late at night is when the drunks and homeless are going to be there; early in the morning is when the joggers and dogwalkers are going to be there. Call my cynical but I think I know who they're actually trying to target with this law.
However, if you're going to make a big media splash about this, since they know we're going to be out there intentionally breaking the curfew, then any time is good.
Just one correction, a typo:—
Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 28, 2008, 09:17 AM NHFT
Dear ____:
On August 27 the New Hampshire Union Leader reported your organization has begun extorting money from harmless, average citizens..simply for being in Manchester parks between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m.
It's one thing to fine people for causing harm, another to go after them when they pose no threat. It's one thing to issue warnings, another to force money out of pockets. Your department aggresses all too often against the harmless, shaking them down instead of protecting them. But who protects them from you?
In protest of your questionable practices - and in support of your victims - I will "illegally" enter Veterans' Park at 6:00 a.m. on ______. I and perhaps others will conduct beautification activities in violation of your greedily enforced curfew.
If fined for this constructive endeavor, I won't pay. If your enforcers order me to leave, I won't comply. You'll need to choose between attacking or ignoring us. If you choose the latter, expect us to return at a later date; expect us to bring more people, expect us to peaceably repeat the "crime."
With increasing disappointment in your authoritarian reign,
Dave Ridley
NHFree.com
Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 28, 2008, 09:45 AM NHFT
would anyone be willing to be an alternate contact for the media on my tentative news release about this?
i'd like to list your email and phone
Sure.
+1.603.858.9328
olson –@– jraxis·com
NHLA forum thread (http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=1065.0).
Quote from: error on August 28, 2008, 12:19 AM NHFT
This is about cracking down on the homeless.
Those damn homeless! How dare they try to sleep or find comfort
anywhere on this Earth. This is just madness to me. How do these jack boot thugs sleep at night? No I am not surprised, but somehow it still pissing me off. Coming from a family that became homeless it touches a nerve when human beings without shelter are treated as criminals.
Fuck just being in the park. Make it a party! Bring alcohol and weed.
Even if you choose to just be there and that's it, it's great to see some civil disobedience in Manchester! :icon_pirat:
Quote from: lastlady on August 28, 2008, 12:36 PM NHFT
Quote from: error on August 28, 2008, 12:19 AM NHFT
This is about cracking down on the homeless.
Those damn homeless! How dare they try to sleep or find comfort anywhere on this Earth. This is just madness to me. How do these jack boot thugs sleep at night? No I am not surprised, but somehow it still pissing me off.
It's time to direct your pissed-offedness towards the people of Manchester who demanded that the streets be cleaned up, the prostitutes and bums be run off (at least out of sight or to another neighborhood), etc.
Mara was hired to "clean up" the city. The public hew and cry is what has led to this.
Quote from: KBCraig on August 28, 2008, 08:28 PM NHFT
Quote from: lastlady on August 28, 2008, 12:36 PM NHFT
Quote from: error on August 28, 2008, 12:19 AM NHFT
This is about cracking down on the homeless.
Those damn homeless! How dare they try to sleep or find comfort anywhere on this Earth. This is just madness to me. How do these jack boot thugs sleep at night? No I am not surprised, but somehow it still pissing me off.
It's time to direct your pissed-offedness towards the people of Manchester who demanded that the streets be cleaned up, the prostitutes and bums be run off (at least out of sight or to another neighborhood), etc.
Mara was hired to "clean up" the city. The public hew and cry is what has led to this.
It's not just Manchester it's the whole damn country and probably the whole damn world. We don't like to look at things we don't like to look at. And instead of dealing with long term solutions we just want to push them out somewhere else. Out of sight out of mind. Hell lets just do what Rudy Giuliani did and just give all the homeless poison muffins and kill them. Ever wonder how NY got so cleaned up? Ever wonder where all those homeless went? Anyway getting off topic as usual.
Can't wait to see the video of the party in the park.
Sent to union leader as an LTE
---
Open Letter to Manchester Police Chief David Mara
Illegal litter pickup to defy curfew
Dear Chief Mara:
On August 27 the Union Leader reported your organization has begun extorting money from harmless, average citizens...simply for being in Manchester parks between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. Statements by your own enforcers appear to corroborate this.
It's one thing to fine people for causing harm, another to go after them when they pose no threat....one thing to issue warnings, another to force money out of pockets. Your department aggresses all-to-often against the harmless, shaking them down instead of protecting them. But who protects them from you?
In protest of your questionable practices I will "illegally" enter Veterans' Park at 6:00 a.m. on Friday, September 5th. I will conduct beautification activities in violation of your greedily-enforced curfew. I invite others to join me in this unlawful litter pickup. Details are at Calendar.NHFree.com
If fined for this small constructive endeavor, I won't pay. If your enforcers order me to leave, I won't comply. You'll need to choose between attacking or ignoring us. If you choose the latter, expect us to return at a later date; expect us to bring more people, expect us to peaceably repeat the "crime."
With increasing disappointment in your authoritarian reign,
Dave Ridley
412 Central
Manchester
Wow, I miss New Hampshire already. And I agree, morning CD at the park will be received much better. It should even be light out by 6am, who won't agree the park should be open in the daylight?
Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 28, 2008, 07:49 AM NHFT
i'm thinking 6 a.m. friday sept. 5.
I added that to the calendar.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 28, 2008, 09:17 AM NHFT
here's a draft note for bureaucrats if we decide to move forward with this... thoughts? suggested improvements?
Dear ____:
On August 27 the New Hampshire Union Leader reported your organization has begun extorting money from harmless, average citizens..simply for being in Manchester parks between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m.
It's one thing to fine people for causing harm, another to go after them when they pose no threat. It's one thing to issue warnings, another to force money out of pockets. Your department aggresses all to often against the harmless, shaking them down instead of protecting them. But who protects them from you?
In protest of your questionable practices - and in support of your victims - I will "illegally" enter Veterans' Park at 6:00 a.m. on ______. I and perhaps others will conduct beautification activities in violation of your greedily enforced curfew.
If fined for this constructive endeavor, I won't pay. If your enforcers order me to leave, I won't comply. You'll need to choose between attacking or ignoring us. If you choose the latter, expect us to return at a later date; expect us to bring more people, expect us to peaceably repeat the "crime."
With increasing disappointment in your authoritarian reign,
Dave Ridley
NHFree.com
Dave Ridley, are you going to have the puppet show and all the other stuff too, or are you going to just go in the park?
Quote from: lastlady on August 28, 2008, 08:38 PM NHFT
ts just do what Rudy Giuliani did and just give all the homeless poison muffins and kill them. Ever wonder how NY got so cleaned up? Ever wonder where all those homeless went?
Do you have any evidence of this? Did Guliani really give they poison muffins?
Quote from: Luke the Truthteller on August 30, 2008, 10:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: lastlady on August 28, 2008, 08:38 PM NHFT
ts just do what Rudy Giuliani did and just give all the homeless poison muffins and kill them. Ever wonder how NY got so cleaned up? Ever wonder where all those homeless went?
Do you have any evidence of this? Did Guliani really give they poison muffins?
No idea about that, but here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani#Law_enforcement) is the stuff that's proven that Ghouliani
did do.
Quote from: Luke the Truthteller on August 30, 2008, 10:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: lastlady on August 28, 2008, 08:38 PM NHFT
ts just do what Rudy Giuliani did and just give all the homeless poison muffins and kill them. Ever wonder how NY got so cleaned up? Ever wonder where all those homeless went?
Do you have any evidence of this? Did Guliani really give they poison muffins?
No evidence. I was being a bit sarcastic about the muffins but from personal first hand experience with the homeless in NYC there is much speculation of many people disappearing off the streets after being taken away by his goons to never ever to be seen again.
To be honest, folks, I don't live anywhere near NYC, and I do not and never have followed NYC politics.
If he did anything bad like that to his own citizens, then Guliani should, as any mayor who does or did such a thing should, be held criminally accountable for his actions.
But before I call for that to happen, I'm going to need more evidence than a simple "We don't know where those people went." They could simply have finally gotten fed up with NYC and simply moved out for all we know.
The homeless in NYC got run out of midtown for the large part by the NYPD. Anybody who didn't move fast enough wound up in jail. I imagine it's possible some of them are still there. In jail, that is. There are far fewer homeless in midtown Manhattan than you'd expect.
I recall hearing rumors of homeless being warehoused, literally in warehouses, decommissioned ships, and many other things, but I have no clue where they all really went. I could probably find out with a little work.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on August 27, 2008, 10:18 PM NHFT
"A lot of us are afraid to go home because of the simple fact that there is no one home at night," added Felicia Wilson, 22, of 120 Myrtle St.
humor
QuoteNo evidence. I was being a bit sarcastic about the muffins but from personal first hand experience with the homeless in NYC there is much speculation of many people disappearing off the streets after being taken away by his goons to never ever to be seen again.
They probably decided that living in San Francisco - where it's decent weather year-round, the city government and myriad agencies worship the ground they walk on and gave them cash to support their drug habits, and a team of activist lawyers stands ready to leap to their defense at the slightest indication - was much better than dealing with the NYPD and New York winters, and I'm sure NYC was only too happy to give them a cross-country bus ticket.
Dave Ridley, all I have to say is I hope you succeed in this. People like you and Lauren Canario and the Kannings, even though you are not always right, have stood up to tyranny more than any other group of people I have ever seen.
I think this is your big chance, Dave. I really do. Because the police really want to enforce this law, and you're going to be breaking the law that they're going to be right in the middle of enforcing.
What do you mean "not always right'? Of course they are!
No Lloyd, they aren't always right. But this time they are right. They are very, very right.
The cold hard truth is that "public" parks are not really public at all, they are government parks where government people have special privileges to make whatever arbitrary rules they want to. And it is up to Dave Ridley to turn them into truly public parks.
Dave, out of all the things you and those anarchists have ever done, this will be the most wonderful, pro-freedom thing that you have ever done in my opinion. This is because I am a nature lover and I constantly dream of the day in which government parks can not be government parks, but truly free parks.
Dave Ridley, parks are the most beautiful at night, they truly are. Except nobody can ever go to half of them at night because of the government.
You've just gotta stand up to this nonsense, Dave. You've just gotta. And then you need to go to other parks and stand up to the government nonsense going on in those parks.
you jus gotta! You jus gotta, Dave!
I was listening to Manchester area news on 95.7 this morning and they talked about Ridley and the park protest. It was cool to hear about it.
cool...the union leader called yesterday to do a story. thanks for the kind words luke
http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Free+Stater+will+invite+a+city+park+curfew+arrest&articleId=ab9d3736-ce29-4174-836e-9b3f08ec7216
Tons of comments.
-Nat
Wow, people are really angry about this.
I hope they either get a clue or move away, cause it's only going to keep happening and more often.
I'm not surprised by the comments showing up. Typical authoritarian attitudes that are taught in government schools. "If you don't like the law don't disobey it, try to get it changed. Whether it is a good law or not." Also, "If you don't like how things are you can leave". It's all rooted in the same authoritarian statist thinking.
I've never even heard of any other state or anything that has called for somebody to be arrested for picking up trash at 6AM in the city park.
And what in the hell is a "quality of life issue", and why are these people saying something is a crime if it affects "quality of life issues"?
Anyway, I left them the following comment. I don't know if it'll be published.
Quote from: comment
This is absolutely unbelievable. I am not even from New Hampshire. I am from Michigan. And Michigan doesn't even have any special status as a "Live Free or Die" state like your state does, but even then if somebody picked up trash here at 6AM at the city park or a state park and the police got nasty with them over it, then most people would be on the side of the person who was picking up the trash, not on the side of the police.
And now you people are calling for him to be arrested for the "crime" of picking up trash?
I don't know much about Free Staters, but it sounds like from some of your attitudes that your state was the one that needed to be freed because I have never heard this attitude in any other state I have been to in my life toward somebody who wanted to go to a city park and pick up trash. The attitude I hear from all those other states is "sure, go right ahead". The attitude I'm hearing right now from your state is "throw the guy in jail". So it's obvious that Free Staters needed to come to your state in order to free it.
The crime is not "picking up trash" but breaking curfew by being in the park before 7:00AM.
To see what is meant by police enforcing quality of life issues read about the broken window theory (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIC,HPIC:2005-35,HPIC:en&q=%22broken+windows+theory%22).
The crime is imposing the curfew. A worse crime is enforcing it.
If you agree that they can ban you from walking in that park from 11 - 7, then you agree they can ban you from walking there from 12 - 12.
Protection from gangs? Nonsense. Everyone is responsible for their own individual safety.
Drug dealers? Thank god. What we really need are several drug dealers in every park that way the competition keeps the prices down.
As for good neighbors, I'd rather live next to a dealer than a cop any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
The police and other goverment employees are effecting my quality of life in a bad way. I guess I need to arrest and/or fine them.
In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.
- Mark Twain, Notebook, 1935
nice note luke. they published it
Nothing like a little constructive disobedience to stir things up, eh?
I thought more people in NH at least had at least somewhat of a clue. ::) There are a few supportive comments, which shows at least some people get it. But ugh, it makes me sick to read so many people advocating aggression against Dave.
Question from someone not yet in NH: Has there been much discussion about referring to ourselves as free staters less? It seems a lot of people view us as outsiders, which appears to give people an excuse to write us off before examining the issue. They view the movement as an invasion.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on September 03, 2008, 10:45 AM NHFT
Wow, people are really angry about this.
I hope they either get a clue or move away, cause it's only going to keep happening and more often.
All the negative comments just remind me that "it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen to set brush fires in people's minds." — Samuel Adams.
I don't really see subtlety as an option. It seems that if your goal is changing minds, and the current mindset is that way due to a thorough life-long indoctrination process, there's no subtle way to change that. Discomfort is almost inevitably the first stage, a.k.a. cognitive dissonance. There's some famous comment, can't recall exactly but I think it was someone in Keene, about us trying to shove freedom down their throats. The statement itself shows how much he doesn't get it with the inherent hypocrisy. I guess I'm saying that those who are made uncomfortable by the notion of an FSP invasion are probably people we want to get uncomfortable. Maybe they'll get so uncomfortable that they'll participate in the Free Lunch Project (http://www.freelunchproject.com/).
Quote from: dalebert on September 04, 2008, 08:32 AM NHFT
I guess I'm saying that those who are made uncomfortable by the notion of an FSP invasion are probably people we want to get uncomfortable. Maybe they'll get so uncomfortable that they'll participate in the Free Lunch Project (http://www.freelunchproject.com/).
QFT
my rule is...never bring up the free state project to local reporters
but if they ask you about it, don't try to downplay it . The more you downplay something, the more they will want to focus on that thing.
they'll always ask you about it if you're doing civil disobedience type stuff
they'll rarely ask you about it if your doing politics.
Here's how to work with the media:
http://freestateproject.org/about/essay_archive/mediarelations.php
comments on the UnionLeader article are almost exactly 40% favorable 60% unfavorable. that is absolutely acceptable.
Quote from: dalebert on September 04, 2008, 08:32 AM NHFT
I guess I'm saying that those who are made uncomfortable by the notion of an FSP invasion are probably people we want to get uncomfortable. Maybe they'll get so uncomfortable that they'll participate in the Free Lunch Project (http://www.freelunchproject.com/).
Yeah, good point. Free lunch project :D
I agree, the number of supportive comments is much higher than I would expect in other parts of the country. As far as the negatives, I guess I should not be so surprised. To me it's proof that most statists fail to see the violence of their ways.
The US is an highly authoritarian country, NH included.
Quote from: lastlady on August 28, 2008, 12:36 PM NHFTThis is just madness to me. How do these jack boot thugs sleep at night?
very well ... in their bed paid for by taxpayers
Quote from: DadaOrwell on August 28, 2008, 07:49 AM NHFTand it goes against a rule that is enforced , rather than one which probably isn't.
thoughts?
I like the idea.
The manchester cops are second to the fed thugs on the list of bad guys in nh. They should be target #2.
Have fun storming the castle. :)
Could the rebel alliance wookie visit the park earlyf?
Hahaha, now that's a great idea, wookie disobedience! The only thing I'd see negative about that is the public not taking us seriously, err...less seriously than they reguarly would. It may come across even more as though we're being disobedient just for kicks or to be mischeivous. Wookie appearances might work to our advantage at larger events though, when no one can deny a portion of a group takes the event very seriously.
I think the Free Lunch Project page is hilarious. It really exposes communitarians for what they truly are: a bunch of stinky, slimy raccoons. It would be better for everyone if they all moved to Sweden (a country which, btw, you should have put as an option for the Free Lunch Project but for whatever reason didn't).
The litter pickup ran from 06:00 to a few minutes before 07:00, and then Dave did his illegal puppet show, this time about Russell's arrest in an IRS office. A reporter from the Union Leader was there, who interviewed us all briefly, and Dave for quite a while. Biker Bill and myself filmed the event. Andrew Carroll, Mike from CA, and Mackler also showed up to help out.
A bunch of cops drove by. None of them stopped to harass us. Right when we got there (ca. 05:50), we saw a jogger entering the park, who also went unmolested. A homeless woman was sleeping on a bench outside the park, along Elm St., but during the curfew hours, we didn't see any other homeless in the park.
About ten minutes after the curfew ended (07:00) a cop drove by, looked at Dave's ILLEGAL GATHERING sign, and actually looked at his watch as he passed. (I didn't see this myself; Andrew C. caught it.)
haha
nice to know they have the homeless outside the park now ... hate to see them sleep on grass on a warm night or anything
excellent work boys ... and thanks for the quick report
This sounds like it's shaping up to be one of those many many laws on the books that most people will not know about but that cops can whip out to use against anyone they just don't particularly like for whatever reason.
unless ... the forces of good push the issue to a breaking point :)
Quote from: dalebert on September 05, 2008, 07:43 AM NHFT
This sounds like it's shaping up to be one of those many many laws on the books that most people will not know about but that cops can whip out to use against anyone they just don't particularly like for whatever reason.
I think it already is.
I really wish I could have taken part in this. Couldn't take the day off though.
Schedule another one, this time at Midnight.
Bring alcohol to make it more fun!
Honestly, I do not think escalation is ideal at this point.
I hesitate to give advice since I am not participating, since I generally would not use civil disobedience against local ordinances in places I do not live, but I think repeating the protest weekly would be interesting. I think by not escalating, you keep attention focused on the law, rather than the escalator.
Quote from: DigitalWarrior on September 05, 2008, 10:19 AM NHFT
Honestly, I do not think escalation is ideal at this point.
I hesitate to give advice since I am not participating, since I generally would not use civil disobedience against local ordinances in places I do not live, but I think repeating the protest weekly would be interesting. I think by not escalating, you keep attention focused on the law, rather than the escalator.
The problem is that "reasonable" people will say, "You're right, that's too restrictive. Let's make it 11-sunrise instead, to accommodate early morning joggers." That's "reasonable", if you believe the park should have a curfew; it shouldn't, thus the protests.
This demonstration busted Mara's much-touted "zero tolerance initiative". Despite being notified, despite an article in the paper the day before, Mara and MPD "tolerated" this blatant violation of the curfew. That means they're selectively enforcing it, and selective enforcement is dangerous and wrong.
I think you are arguing against Thoreau now.
QuoteThe mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus,(7) etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs. Yet such as these even are commonly esteemed good citizens
It looks to me like he is mocking (among other things) non-selective enforcement of law.
I am personally of the opinion that nothing so well serves to have laws revoked as the non-selective enforcement of them. Speed limits are, I believe, necessary. However I think that if police were routinely pulling over people doing 36 in a 35 zone, there would be huge political problems.
I am not sure whether I lean more towards selective or non-selective enforcement of the law..
QuoteThe problem is that "reasonable" people will say, "You're right, that's too restrictive. Let's make it 11-sunrise instead, to accommodate early morning joggers." That's "reasonable", if you believe the park should have a curfew; it shouldn't, thus the protests.
I believe it is important to realize that what I would like and what others would like, even after being fully informed, may be different. If the local municipality has the ability to own property, and set the rules for it, then they can set rules for the park.
I think it is evident that the significant minority of people is upset by this rule. I would ask, would it be better to get arrested for violating the curfew and achieve no change, but cause harm to your own reputation? Or would it be better to possibly get arrested and show by it that the laws are unreasonable?
I know that if I were in Manchester I would have two goals. FIrst, get signs put up so that everyone knows the rules. Second, get the rules changed so that they are more reasonable. Once the rules are changed show it had no effect on anything, and see if you can have the rules repealed. But that is why I am generally an incrementalist...
It would have been ideal if you got the officer on camera watching you break the 'law' and driving on, which proves selective enforcement, and the press may eat up. Next time someone gets a ticket in the park, everyone who did not get one could come to their defense and point out that they were intentionally ignored. I don't see those who agree with authorities that the statute is just believeing that it should be selectively enforced.
lots of crazy comments on the UL article
How on earth is Dave endangering anyone through his actions?
Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 05, 2008, 01:21 PM NHFT
lots of crazy comments on the UL article
How on earth is Dave endangering anyone through his actions?
He's disobeying the authority of the city government. It's a slippery slope. Once you go down that path, soon everyone will be killing and raping each other in the streets.
Quote from: Luke the Truthteller on September 04, 2008, 10:05 PM NHFT
I think the Free Lunch Project page is hilarious. It really exposes communitarians for what they truly are: a bunch of stinky, slimy raccoons. It would be better for everyone if they all moved to Sweden (a country which, btw, you should have put as an option for the Free Lunch Project but for whatever reason didn't).
I'll take a raccoon over a totalitarian any day. Raccoons are actually kinda friendly.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 05, 2008, 01:21 PM NHFT
How on earth is Dave endangering anyone through his actions?
Without obedience to the law, we'd have anarchy!
Quote from: Russell Kanning on September 05, 2008, 01:21 PM NHFT
lots of crazy comments on the UL article
How on earth is Dave endangering anyone through his actions?
Is there a follow up article yet?
It just happened this morning, Ian! The paper doesn't publish 24 hours per day. Tomorrow morning will probably have one. :-\
The paper here publishes in the afternoon on weekdays, so wasn't sure if that was the same there.
and they run a website
They publish daily ... umm ... overnight.
And their website seems to follow their paper for stories. Nothing raw seems to be put there.
The UL website does update for major or breaking stories. I doubt they would categorize this story that way.
Front Page story, in all caps,
"DAVE RIDLEY NOT ARRESTED IN MANCHESTER"
Quote from: KBCraig on September 05, 2008, 07:31 PM NHFT
The UL website does update for major or breaking stories. I doubt they would categorize this story that way.
You mean like this story?
STALEMATE: Guinta won't let aldermen go home (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=STALEMATE:+Guinta+won't+let+aldermen+go+home&articleId=89f05078-b809-40bc-9989-b26ca9004a09)
;)
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=15244.msg258202#msg258202
Quote from: Pat McCotter on September 05, 2008, 08:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on September 05, 2008, 07:31 PM NHFT
The UL website does update for major or breaking stories. I doubt they would categorize this story that way.
You mean like this story?
STALEMATE: Guinta won't let aldermen go home (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=STALEMATE:+Guinta+won't+let+aldermen+go+home&articleId=89f05078-b809-40bc-9989-b26ca9004a09)
;)
Ayup. And when the final story broke (that the Gang of 8 refused to allow the ballot vote), within an hour there was a story with over 30 comments posted.
Anyone know when the UL story will be up?
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 06, 2008, 01:41 PM NHFT
Anyone know when the UL story will be up?
Saturday morning shortly after midnight (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Board+says+no+to+tax+cap+vote&articleId=89f05078-b809-40bc-9989-b26ca9004a09).
Today (Sunday) there is a new one (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Another+crack+at+tax+cap&articleId=a7e9e6e5-b832-41f3-a38e-a583ac70e143).
Did you intend to link to an article about the park protest?
Quote from: FTL_Ian on September 07, 2008, 08:36 AM NHFT
Did you intend to link to an article about the park protest?
Oops!
Never Mind!
:blush:
There's a video at the UL link.
http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?articleId=35c5a18b-d0c7-41b8-ae79-9a3b24c79d4e
Curfew protest ignored by police
Police on Friday ignored a protest of their city parks curfew crackdown.
A handful of protesters violated the city's parks curfew while collecting litter in Veterans Memorial Park.
The act of civil disobedience was organized after police began issuing dozens of summonses last month to people in the park during the curfew.
The curfew is 11 p.m. to 7 a.m., except in parks where there is playground equipment. There the curfew is 9 p.m. to 7 a.m.
Violating the curfew carries a $50 fine.
Police have said the crackdown is part of an enforcement effort to head off more serious quality of life issues.
During the hour-long protest, police cruisers passed by the park at least eight times, sometimes driving along Elm Street and others detouring east onto Central Street. None stopped and only one officer seemed to glance their way.
Quote from: KBCraig on September 07, 2008, 10:43 AM NHFT
There's a video at the UL link.
http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?articleId=35c5a18b-d0c7-41b8-ae79-9a3b24c79d4e
Thanks. I left a comment letting the MPD know I plan to continue walking through
the property I already paid for the "public" parks as I choose, regardless of their threats.
OK my brainstorm right now is to have another litter pickup at 6:30 a.m. followed by an illegal 7:30 a.m. jog around city hall. You're not supposed to jog in manchester without wearing a blaze orange vest. of course, somewhere in there i would again violate all the other laws we've been violating...the puppet show law, the milk container law, the minimum wage law, etc.
I'm thinking the date on this would be Friday 9/19
I'm thinking we follow it up at 8 am by simply staying at city hall and having a demonstration 8a - 9a against the spending cap obstruction going on.
thoughts?
It would make for good video if your "jog" was slow-mo and showed you being overtaken by walkers. ;)
For that matter, define "jogging". Difference between jogging and running? Between jogging and speed-walking?
Quote from: KBCraig on September 12, 2008, 10:53 PM NHFT
It would make for good video if your "jog" was slow-mo and showed you being overtaken by walkers. ;)
LOL...that would be good. :D
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 12, 2008, 12:31 PM NHFT
OK my brainstorm right now is to have another litter pickup at 6:30 a.m. followed by an illegal 7:30 a.m. jog around city hall. You're not supposed to jog in manchester without wearing a blaze orange vest. of course, somewhere in there i would again violate all the other laws we've been violating...the puppet show law, the milk container law, the minimum wage law, etc.
I'm thinking the date on this would be Friday 9/19
I'm thinking we follow it up at 8 am by simply staying at city hall and having a demonstration 8a - 9a against the spending cap obstruction going on.
thoughts?
Overall, I like it.
This Friday may be another sobriety checkpoint, too.
how about switching it to late night tuesday sept 23, here is the blueprint:
(TENTATIVE):
What: proposed 2nd Illegal litter pickup, other constructive lawbreaking
When: 10:45 - 11:45 p.m., Tuesday September 23, 2008
Where: Veterans Memorial Park, 889 Elm St., Manchester New Hampshire. Starting on west side.
Why: Protest recent Manchester police shakedowns. MPD has been fining (without warning) average,
harmless people for simply being in city parks at the wrong hour.
How: We'll clean litter from the park at a time when citizens are forbidden from being there. In the process I and perhaps others will violate five bad
laws/ordinances. There will be illegal placement of trash into milk containers, illegal hiring of citizens, illegal jogging without orange vests, an illegal puppet show.
Who: Dave Ridley, 42, from Manchester + friends from NHFree.com. Projected turnout: 15.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 15, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
how about switching it to late night tuesday sept 23, here is the blueprint:
(TENTATIVE):
What: proposed 2nd Illegal litter pickup, other constructive lawbreaking
When: 10:45 - 11:45 p.m., Tuesday September 23, 2008
Where: Veterans Memorial Park, 889 Elm St., Manchester New Hampshire. Starting on west side.
Why: Protest recent Manchester police shakedowns. MPD has been fining (without warning) average,
harmless people for simply being in city parks at the wrong hour.
How: We'll clean litter from the park at a time when citizens are forbidden from being there. In the process I and perhaps others will violate five bad
laws/ordinances. There will be illegal placement of trash into milk containers, illegal hiring of citizens, illegal jogging without orange vests, an illegal puppet show.
Who: Dave Ridley, 42, from Manchester + friends from NHFree.com. Projected turnout: 15.
Are you going to write the police another letter talking about how you are appalled at their bad behavior towards the people of Manchester?
BTW where is the law saying it's illegal to jog without an orange vest?
ya good thought if one of you could post a link or upload text of the ordinance that would help .
i should see that before I set anything up
amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/New%20Hampshire/manchest/cityofmanchesternewhampshirecodeofordina?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:manchester_nh
§ 130.05 JOGGERS ON CITY STREETS; VISIBILITY.
No person shall jog or run on any city street without wearing appropriately colored clothing, such as orange, so as to be clearly visible to motorists during daylight hours. No person shall jog or run on any city street without wearing appropriately luminescent clothing, such as a safety vest, running suit, or reflective tape so as to be clearly visible to motorists during nighttime hours and at dawn or dusk.
('71 Code, § 17-16) (Ord. passed 8-5-86) Penalty, see § 130.99
so we'll need to run on the street some, rather than just the sidewalk, for it to be a violation. is there a section of street near vets park where running on the street is necessary because of problems with the sidewalk? Maybe we could jog across a crosswalk. I dont really want to run out on the streets in a place where you could easily use the sidewalk or what not.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 15, 2008, 01:06 PM NHFT
amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/New%20Hampshire/manchest/cityofmanchesternewhampshirecodeofordina?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:manchester_nh
§ 130.05 JOGGERS ON CITY STREETS; VISIBILITY.
No person shall jog or run on any city street without wearing appropriately colored clothing, such as orange, so as to be clearly visible to motorists during daylight hours. No person shall jog or run on any city street without wearing appropriately luminescent clothing, such as a safety vest, running suit, or reflective tape so as to be clearly visible to motorists during nighttime hours and at dawn or dusk.
('71 Code, § 17-16) (Ord. passed 8-5-86) Penalty, see § 130.99
Dave, my browser is giving me a "Problem Loading Page" error every time I type in that link, but I'll believe you that this ordinance is real.
Visible during daylight hours? I'd imagine anything you'd wear would be visible during daylight hours.
Has anyone heard of someone being ticketed for not having proper markings during daylight hours? Because it doesn't seem applicable, the way its written. Anything is visible during the day.
Nighttime, it sounds like you do need something reflective or eye catching.
I'm thinking: 'Urban Camo'!
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 15, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
how about switching it to late night tuesday sept 23, here is the blueprint:
(TENTATIVE):
What: proposed 2nd Illegal litter pickup, other constructive lawbreaking
When: 10:45 - 11:45 p.m., Tuesday September 23, 2008
Where: Veterans Memorial Park, 889 Elm St., Manchester New Hampshire. Starting on west side.
Why: Protest recent Manchester police shakedowns. MPD has been fining (without warning) average,
harmless people for simply being in city parks at the wrong hour.
How: We'll clean litter from the park at a time when citizens are forbidden from being there. In the process I and perhaps others will violate five bad
laws/ordinances. There will be illegal placement of trash into milk containers, illegal hiring of citizens, illegal jogging without orange vests, an illegal puppet show.
Who: Dave Ridley, 42, from Manchester + friends from NHFree.com. Projected turnout: 15.
I like it since I'll be in town for Taproom.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 15, 2008, 12:26 PM NHFT
how about switching it to late night tuesday sept 23, here is the blueprint:
(TENTATIVE):
What: proposed 2nd Illegal litter pickup, other constructive lawbreaking
When: 10:45 - 11:45 p.m., Tuesday September 23, 2008
Where: Veterans Memorial Park, 889 Elm St., Manchester New Hampshire. Starting on west side.
Why: Protest recent Manchester police shakedowns. MPD has been fining (without warning) average,
harmless people for simply being in city parks at the wrong hour.
How: We'll clean litter from the park at a time when citizens are forbidden from being there. In the process I and perhaps others will violate five bad
laws/ordinances. There will be illegal placement of trash into milk containers, illegal hiring of citizens, illegal jogging without orange vests, an illegal puppet show.
Who: Dave Ridley, 42, from Manchester + friends from NHFree.com. Projected turnout: 15.
I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to stop announcing ahead of time when we're going to do these things. I think it's more than obvious at this point that the police know when we're all going to be there, so they go out of their way to avoid us. But this of course can't be proven conclusively.
So, if we just start showing up at the park at random dates and times (via
ad hoc organizing at Taproom Tuesday, for example), they won't know ahead of time that it's us, and will actually come out to enforce the law. So then, what will they do when they see it's us? Harass us? Or turn around and leave—thus
proving that they're willfully not enforcing these laws.
Good point. What I'm thinking is if there are laws they won't enforce with you guys specifically, but would with people they suspect aren't doing it as CD, you get a new face in there who will get ticketed/harassed, then in court everyone go and question why the law is being selectively enforced.
i'm thinking about ditching the 9/23 illegal litter pickup as a way of thanking mpd for their defense of ryan marvin against the secret service on saturday. also i cannot find any other reports of new police shakedowns in the parks...tho i 'm checking.
technically i did not promise to repeat the act, but said they should "expect" us to. so i feel i have enough wiggle room to cancel if that seems appropriate.
Ryan got harassed by Secret Service? That's news to me, is there a link to hear more about that?
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 17, 2008, 11:09 AM NHFT
i'm thinking about ditching the 9/23 illegal litter pickup as a way of thanking mpd for their defense of ryan marvin against the secret service on saturday. also i cannot find any other reports of new police shakedowns in the parks...tho i 'm checking.
technically i did not promise to repeat the act, but said they should "expect" us to. so i feel i have enough wiggle room to cancel if that seems appropriate.
Does the fact that the police occasionally do something good negate the fact that most of the time they're not?
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 18, 2008, 03:48 PM NHFT
Does the fact that the police occasionally do something good negate the fact that most of the time they're not?
Plus, by being in the park "after hours," you are protesting the police's enforcement of unposted restrictions on the use of public property. If you want to thank them for their good behavior in other realms, I think that's a good thing, but it seems to be unrelated to the purpose of and principles involved in this protest.
Quote from: exCA Mike on September 18, 2008, 03:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 18, 2008, 03:48 PM NHFT
Does the fact that the police occasionally do something good negate the fact that most of the time they're not?
Plus, by being in the park "after hours," you are protesting the police's enforcement of unposted restrictions on the use of public property. If you want to thank them for their good behavior in other realms, I think that's a good thing, but it seems to be unrelated to the purpose of and principles involved in this protest.
I think the "unposted restrictions" issue is secondary, and a distraction. Whether or not the restrictions are posted, they're wrong.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 18, 2008, 04:07 PM NHFT
I think the "unposted restrictions" issue is secondary, and a distraction. Whether or not the restrictions are posted, they're wrong.
I completely agree. But isn't the purpose of picking up litter in park after 11p or before 6a to show that people can and do use the park for safe, non-aggressive, and sometimes community-oriented reasons when the government says they can't? And if that is the purpose, then how is ceasing such a display/protest related to whether the police helped Ryan Marvin in an unrelated issue?
I don't think it is related. I think that if you want to thank the police for defending Ryan against the Secret Service, then you should thank them - send them a box of donuts, write a LTE thanking them in public, shake their hand personally - but you shouldn't stop protesting the other things they are doing wrong (like enforcing curfew on public parks).
I thought that's what you were saying, too.
ok still mulling .... continue weighing in
Quote from: exCA Mike on September 18, 2008, 04:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 18, 2008, 04:07 PM NHFT
I think the "unposted restrictions" issue is secondary, and a distraction. Whether or not the restrictions are posted, they're wrong.
I completely agree. But isn't the purpose of picking up litter in park after 11p or before 6a to show that people can and do use the park for safe, non-aggressive, and sometimes community-oriented reasons when the government says they can't? And if that is the purpose, then how is ceasing such a display/protest related to whether the police helped Ryan Marvin in an unrelated issue?
I don't think it is related. I think that if you want to thank the police for defending Ryan against the Secret Service, then you should thank them - send them a box of donuts, write a LTE thanking them in public, shake their hand personally - but you shouldn't stop protesting the other things they are doing wrong (like enforcing curfew on public parks).
I thought that's what you were saying, too.
I kinda agree...however, not holding a protest/just delaying it as an open show of thanks may make it more apparent that Dave was pleased by their actions and is willing to alter something he takes seriously to show that gratitude. Not being protested against is probably something they'd prefer to being personally thanked, perhaps it may alter the image some police may have that the voluntaryist crowd is just out to make everything they do look like blind obedience to an oppressive force. I'm not saying the protest should be delayed, but if it seems like it's something they'd appreciate and think about, its something to consider.
By the CivDis your not injuring the MPD... your physically questioning a restrictive ordinance enacted by aldermen.
The MPD is just an intermediary between the public and aldermen.
Quote from: exCA Mike on September 18, 2008, 04:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 18, 2008, 04:07 PM NHFT
I think the "unposted restrictions" issue is secondary, and a distraction. Whether or not the restrictions are posted, they're wrong.
I completely agree. But isn't the purpose of picking up litter in park after 11p or before 6a to show that people can and do use the park for safe, non-aggressive, and sometimes community-oriented reasons when the government says they can't? And if that is the purpose, then how is ceasing such a display/protest related to whether the police helped Ryan Marvin in an unrelated issue?
I don't think it is related. I think that if you want to thank the police for defending Ryan against the Secret Service, then you should thank them - send them a box of donuts, write a LTE thanking them in public, shake their hand personally - but you shouldn't stop protesting the other things they are doing wrong (like enforcing curfew on public parks).
I thought that's what you were saying, too.
I was. ???
I was simply pointing out that the curfew is what we're protesting. Some Manchester residents, if you read the
UL articles, are merely upset at the fact that they've been ticketed for violating an
unposted curfew, so I wanted to make it clear that that's
not our beef with the curfew—it's the curfew itself.
Ah, I see. My point would have been as lucid (or more) had I eliminated the word "unposted." Got it.
Manchester: More unlawful trash pickup
NH: "Illegal litter pickup" grows in Manchester
What: 2nd Illegal litter pickup, other constructive lawbreaking
When: 10:45 - 11:45 p.m., Tuesday September 23, 2008
Where: Veterans Memorial Park, 889 Elm St., Manchester New Hampshire. Starting on west side.
Why: Protest recent Manchester police shakedowns. MPD has been fining (without warning) average,
harmless people for simply being in city parks at the wrong hour.
How: We'll clean litter from the park and keep an eye out for violent crime, at a time when citizens are forbidden from being there. In the process I and perhaps others will violate five bad
laws/ordinances. There will be illegal jogging without orange vests, illegal placement of trash into milk containers, illegal hiring of citizens, illegal puppet shows.
Who: Dave Ridley, 42, from Manchester + friends from NHFree.com. Projected turnout: 15.
9/21/08 Open Letter to Manchester Police Chief David Mara
Dear Chief Mara:
I wanted to salute you for your wisdom in ignoring our curfew-violating litter pickup at Veterans Park on Sept. 5. On Tuesday the 23rd you'll have the chance to ignore us again...or crack down on us as you have so many harmless parkgoers.
At 10:45 p.m. that night a group of us will again gather outside the park. We'll first vioate the city ordinance that says you can't jog without a blaze orange vest. Then we'll enter the park after curfew and repeat our litter-removing activities. Since this is the fifth event in a "constructive disobedience series," I will harmlessly violate at least *five* bad laws or rules (in the absence of illness or emergency). Besides breaching the victimless crime ordinances against jogging and being in the park, I'll hold a puppet show without a license, place trash into milk containers and hire a person for less than minimum wage.
Again: We aren't taking issue with your harassment of people for causing damage or threatening others. It's the shakedowns of harmless folk, and the continued enforcement of victimless crime laws, which constitute the problem.
There are times when your officers show great courage; probably they show it every day. But that bravery is often wasted on morally questionable missions. It's *wrong* to fine or jail people who aren't charged with harming or endangering others against their will. It's a misuse of our money and misdirection of your talents.
When you ignored the Sept. 5 curfew violations, you tacitly acknowledged that it's not always good to enforce every rule. You took a microscopic step toward a world where police protect us only from each other, not ourselves. We can't make you step any further in that direction, but we can make you think about these things. We can give you a choice between the wise use of discretion and the unwise use of force.
On a side note, I wanted to thank you for something one of your officers apparently did the other day. I understand he stuck up for Free Stater Ryan Marvin, when a Secret Service agent tried to keep him away from the Obama rally. I've broadcast news of this constructive intervention on my Youtube channel and hope that it will serve to ease any tensions that may exist between your institution and our movement. In fact, it was almost enough to make me call off the event above. But your victimeless-crime-arrests go on. And for now, our "illegal beautification" endeavor goes on as well.
Yours,
Dave Ridley
NHFree.com
Manchester
I will be there (and at Murphy's :) ).
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 21, 2008, 11:26 AM NHFT
At 10:45 p.m. that night a group of us will again gather outside the park. We'll first vioate the city ordinance that says you can't jog without a blaze orange vest. Then we'll enter the park after curfew and repeat our litter-removing activities. Since this is the fifth event in a "constructive disobedience series," I will harmlessly violate at least *five* bad laws or rules (in the absence of illness or emergency). Besides breaching the victimless crime ordinances against jogging and being in the park, I'll hold a puppet show without a license, place trash into milk containers and hire a person for less than minimum wage.
So how did things work out in the park?
Are you serious that those things are all considered crimes? I thought the Swedish government was good at making up bad laws, but these are all just downright silly. I was actually laughing out loud when I read this post.
/Swede
Bad laws have created further bad laws... so yes they are ordinances, regulations, and statutes.
Quote from: oscar_swede on September 24, 2008, 09:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 21, 2008, 11:26 AM NHFT
At 10:45 p.m. that night a group of us will again gather outside the park. We'll first vioate the city ordinance that says you can't jog without a blaze orange vest. Then we'll enter the park after curfew and repeat our litter-removing activities. Since this is the fifth event in a "constructive disobedience series," I will harmlessly violate at least *five* bad laws or rules (in the absence of illness or emergency). Besides breaching the victimless crime ordinances against jogging and being in the park, I'll hold a puppet show without a license, place trash into milk containers and hire a person for less than minimum wage.
So how did things work out in the park?
Are you serious that those things are all considered crimes? I thought the Swedish government was good at making up bad laws, but these are all just downright silly. I was actually laughing out loud when I read this post.
They ignored us again. At least 3–4 cop cars drove by.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 24, 2008, 09:26 PM NHFT
Quote from: oscar_swede on September 24, 2008, 09:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 21, 2008, 11:26 AM NHFT
At 10:45 p.m. that night a group of us will again gather outside the park. We'll first vioate the city ordinance that says you can't jog without a blaze orange vest. Then we'll enter the park after curfew and repeat our litter-removing activities. Since this is the fifth event in a "constructive disobedience series," I will harmlessly violate at least *five* bad laws or rules (in the absence of illness or emergency). Besides breaching the victimless crime ordinances against jogging and being in the park, I'll hold a puppet show without a license, place trash into milk containers and hire a person for less than minimum wage.
So how did things work out in the park?
Are you serious that those things are all considered crimes? I thought the Swedish government was good at making up bad laws, but these are all just downright silly. I was actually laughing out loud when I read this post.
They ignored us again. At least 3–4 cop cars drove by.
Best possible outcome.?
Quote from: William on September 25, 2008, 04:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on September 24, 2008, 09:26 PM NHFT
Quote from: oscar_swede on September 24, 2008, 09:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 21, 2008, 11:26 AM NHFT
At 10:45 p.m. that night a group of us will again gather outside the park. We'll first vioate the city ordinance that says you can't jog without a blaze orange vest. Then we'll enter the park after curfew and repeat our litter-removing activities. Since this is the fifth event in a "constructive disobedience series," I will harmlessly violate at least *five* bad laws or rules (in the absence of illness or emergency). Besides breaching the victimless crime ordinances against jogging and being in the park, I'll hold a puppet show without a license, place trash into milk containers and hire a person for less than minimum wage.
So how did things work out in the park?
Are you serious that those things are all considered crimes? I thought the Swedish government was good at making up bad laws, but these are all just downright silly. I was actually laughing out loud when I read this post.
They ignored us again. At least 3–4 cop cars drove by.
Best possible outcome.?
From the "ignore us and we win" perspective, certainly. But there's also merit in finally having a confrontation and making them enforce these idiotic laws: Them ignoring us doesn't help to expose the evil of their system. And without doing so, and then us using such to try and get
rid of these laws, they can just go about enforcing them arbitrarily against everyone else except us.
I'm torn on which I think is the better outcome.
Perhaps the next CD should occur in front of the police station?
Quote from: FTL_Ian on September 26, 2008, 07:46 PM NHFT
Perhaps the next CD should occur in front of the police station?
It almost does. The station is visible from the park. (And the courthouse abuts the park.)