I'll be burning a flag here in Keene at Central Square on the day before election day.
And... uh....
That's about it.
Time: 2:00
What kind of flag?
Quote from: Kat Kanning on September 18, 2008, 02:25 AM NHFT
What kind of flag?
Stars and Stripes.
And a UN flag if I can get a hold of one.
time?
If someone pays me to vote in Keene that day ... I might be able to watch it burn. :)
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on September 18, 2008, 07:34 AM NHFT
And a UN flag if I can get a hold of one.
I think Jim and Lauren have a UN flag vending machine at their place.
I might have a un flag...I get them off of ebay for around $5 each
Do they burn or just melt?
It's the 'I'm melting!' kind.
This should be interesting. Will you be making a statement to the media? If so, what will it be?
Quote from: Coconut on September 18, 2008, 08:43 AM NHFT
time?
I don't know yet. I want to hit peak traffic to get the fullest effect.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on September 18, 2008, 11:25 AM NHFT
This should be interesting. Will you be making a statement to the media? If so, what will it be?
My statement (it'll need refining) will be along the lines of "the act of the vote is usually used as justification for validation of the system and as the enabling of all acts done by the State as given from a mandate of the 'people'. I'd rather show my distaste for the system by burning a material representation".
Not to be my exact words, I think, but somewhat along the lines.
You'll get the crowd most likely to flip out about it. I wouldn't be surprised if you get a violent reaction.
If you're going to do the US flag, why not go all the way and include the UN and/or the NH flags? It might take the harsh edge off the event and actually confuse those who would automatically be very angry at you for burning the "stars and stripes" alone.
It seems like a more complete statement. If you're interested, I'll pay for the NH flag (you order it).
Quote from: Kat Kanning on September 18, 2008, 12:18 PM NHFT
You'll get the crowd most likely to flip out about it. I wouldn't be surprised if you get a violent reaction.
Yeah, we had a violent reaction to a peace sign-waving. :'(
Quote from: FTL_Ian on September 18, 2008, 12:22 PM NHFT
If you're going to do the US flag, why not go all the way and include the UN and/or the NH flags? It might take the harsh edge off the event and actually confuse those who would automatically be very angry at you for burning the "stars and stripes" alone.
It seems like a more complete statement. If you're interested, I'll pay for the NH flag (you order it).
I was considering the UN flag as well if I could find one as I said above, but I'll do the NH one too. It does make sense from the perspective of consistency.
we had a violent reaction to a tax protest :o
Quote from: Kat Kanning on September 18, 2008, 12:51 PM NHFT
we had a violent reaction to a tax protest :o
I was thinking about that angry big nationalist outside the post office - was that a tax protest? I thought it was peace. Or were you referring to someone else?
It was the Don Quixote thing, which was a tax/torture protest.
:campfire:
Cameras are for your protection and others enjoy footage!
for the most views, at the end of the work day is the busiest downtown right?
Have a good con-flag-ration!
I think this is a wonderful idea! You have my full support, and I will certainly purchase your flag! Matter of fact, in Dada-speak there is an 80% chance that I will join you by burning one here in Riverside on election day.
The human subconscious thinks in symbols. By attacking the symbols of nationalism I believe we do real damage to nationalism.
Have you thought of doing this as a pledgebank thing and see how many people you can get to join you across the country?
Why not burn some of those flag-motif party symbols that pop up everywhere each leap year?
Better still, burn an elephant for Barr and a donkey for McCain. For Obama, you'll have to design a moonbat . . .
We did the elephant and donkey burn one year. They didn't burn completely and the what originally smelled like a barbeque began to stink real bad after a few days!
Quote from: Sam A. Robrin on September 18, 2008, 11:36 PM NHFT
Why not burn some of those flag-motif party symbols that pop up everywhere each leap year?
Better still, burn an elephant for Barr and a donkey for McCain. For Obama, you'll have to design a moonbat . . .
Are you in Keene? I'm sure he'd be happy for you to attend and do that with him.
Doesn't appear to be in Keene.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on September 19, 2008, 06:40 AM NHFT
Doesn't appear to be in Keene.
No, I'm one hundred leagues from the hemisphere . . .
What is the goal of this burn? Do any of you think that this may make enemies of those who could be potential converts? They may reject you and your ideas and all FSPers without discovering the rationale.
I think that man otherwise rational people have a latent sense of nationalism that may flair up in an event like this.
Think this over.
How will they know Jesse is a member of the FSP (if he is even one). Maybe they will also reject all young people or all males. Maybe they will reject everyone from the park. I don't think it makes sense to burn the US flag (and would be a waste of my time) either but how much harm could it really cause to the freedom movement in NH. Will only communists and socialists get elected because of a flag burning? The worse thing that can happen is Jesse gets beat up and arrested, which is terrible but only hurts him.
Quote from: kalmia on October 03, 2008, 01:05 AM NHFT
What is the goal of this burn? Do any of you think that this may make enemies of those who could be potential converts? They may reject you and your ideas and all FSPers without discovering the rationale.
I think that man otherwise rational people have a latent sense of nationalism that may flair up in an event like this.
Think this over.
I agree with Mountain Laurel on this one! ;D
personally, i have no problem with the us flag being torched (it's just a piece of cloth)...and i understand why you are doing it. however, i don't really know that other people will quite get the picture.
Something I learned working the LP ballot drive in 1980, and have had no reason to change my mind about in all the intervening years, is that the majority of people whom libertarians are afraid of offending will find any excuse to reject a new idea. They're afraid of rocking the boat, of losing what little they have, of change, often of responsibility, even of thinking itself. Try to please them, and you'll please no one--as the events of the last twenty-eight years illustrate.
so ... jesse .... are you promoting this event? is it happening?
should I come and photograph your beating at the hands of nationists ;)
Quote from: Radical and Stuff on October 03, 2008, 01:10 AM NHFT
How will they know Jesse is a member of the FSP (if he is even one).
The people around here have a way of knowing. Possibly if Ian and other free-state signers are around at the time.
If I go, I will be covering it as a news event, not attending as a supporter. The pledge is one of the most evil things this country has, but burning the flag will not be taken in a positive manner.
Quote from: kalmia on October 03, 2008, 01:05 AM NHFT
What is the goal of this burn? Do any of you think that this may make enemies of those who could be potential converts? They may reject you and your ideas and all FSPers without discovering the rationale.
I think that man otherwise rational people have a latent sense of nationalism that may flair up in an event like this.
Think this over.
I have thought this over, and I don't care to pander to nationalist sympathies.
But consider for a moment- I personally do not want to attract people who act so irrationally to the cause. YOU may find merit in the idea, but I prefer to pick from people who already have a balanced head on their shoulders. Now, if these nationalists want to reject me because of my burning the flag, all the more power to them- the feeling will be made mutual when they go cast that vote the day after I burn the flag.
And that, right there, sums up the goal. For every election that is held, I will burn a flag. For every parade praising murderers and institutionalized thugs, I will burn a flag. If these people can share their views so overtly, I can do the same. It would be a two-faced act to suggest dismantling the State but stop short of burning a piece of cloth that represents it because "the wrong message might be sent across".
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 03, 2008, 07:25 AM NHFT
so ... jesse .... are you promoting this event? is it happening?
should I come and photograph your beating at the hands of nationists ;)
I am doing it. I have NO intention of not doing it.
I'm getting some heat from other Free Staters it seems on this-
To them I say "Fuck you. If the State can take my money, shove it's views down my throat, and threaten me with incarceration for victimless 'crimes', I see no reason to not burn a flag."
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 03, 2008, 11:45 AM NHFT
I'm getting some heat from other Free Staters it seems on this-
To them I say "Fuck you. If the State can take my money, shove it's views down my throat, and threaten me with incarceration for victimless 'crimes', I see no reason to not burn a flag."
Good for you. The politicos will never be pleased with most disobedience. Have you been accused of "poisoning the well" yet? Are people giving you heat in private messages?
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 03, 2008, 11:48 AM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 03, 2008, 11:45 AM NHFT
I'm getting some heat from other Free Staters it seems on this-
To them I say "Fuck you. If the State can take my money, shove it's views down my throat, and threaten me with incarceration for victimless 'crimes', I see no reason to not burn a flag."
Good for you. The politicos will never be pleased with most disobedience. Have you been accused of "poisoning the well" yet? Are people giving you heat in private messages?
Yep. I've had about three today so far.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 03, 2008, 11:50 AM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 03, 2008, 11:49 AM NHFT
Yep. I've had about three today so far.
Repost?
Honestly, I don't care too- I'm not looking to start drama, but I did want to address them collectively. I was surprised who they came from at first, but otherwise it makes no difference to me.
(http://xs232.xs.to/xs232/08405/salute381.jpg)
For the children.
Quote from: Vitruvian on October 03, 2008, 01:40 PM NHFT
(http://xs232.xs.to/xs232/08405/salute381.jpg)
For the children.
XD
Yeah!
But honestly, some of the reasons I've got are just inane. People are acting like if we DON'T burn flags, freedom will come faster- to this, I can only ask "if this is the case, why are we still enslaved"? The vast majority of people haven't burned flags, ever- but they're still kept in chains. It's absolutely ridiculous to think that by "respecting" the flag, we can be both consistent and achieving anything worthwhile.
To be clear, I wasn't requesting names, just their reasons. No need to create drama.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 03, 2008, 02:04 PM NHFT
To be clear, I wasn't requesting names, just their reasons. No need to create drama.
Just that I'd be hurting the cause, and that I'm a petty child who is begging for attention- another one was at least honest enough to say they'd never do business of any sort with me.
I've mainly been skimming the threads, so I'm not sure if you responded to Ian's question about a press release?
I understand and agree with you fully about wanting to tell the neocon nationalists to bugger off. That said, a press release has the potential to explain to other people why you're burning the flag. There are a ton of people who see the flag burning as like... the most cliche form of protest ever. Rather than merely being a destructive person with anti-state rhetoric, you might be able to bring the issues to people.
As much as "FSPers" are disparaged in New Hampshire, I'm sure there are liberty lovers in the state who might not know there are people to network with and stand up with. Perhaps a press release will tell some of those levelheaded liberty lovers around you "I'm here, stand and you won't stand alone".
Quote from: Kevin Dean on October 03, 2008, 02:35 PM NHFT
I've mainly been skimming the threads, so I'm not sure if you responded to Ian's question about a press release?
I understand and agree with you fully about wanting to tell the neocon nationalists to bugger off. That said, a press release has the potential to explain to other people why you're burning the flag. There are a ton of people who see the flag burning as like... the most cliche form of protest ever. Rather than merely being a destructive person with anti-state rhetoric, you might be able to bring the issues to people.
As much as "FSPers" are disparaged in New Hampshire, I'm sure there are liberty lovers in the state who might not know there are people to network with and stand up with. Perhaps a press release will tell some of those levelheaded liberty lovers around you "I'm here, stand and you won't stand alone".
I thought I had responded, but I must have intended to and not :(
But yes, I will be going to the Free Press, Sentinel, and Equinox about these things. Free Press and Equinox I know I can get- it's the Sentinel that is the wild card. I have begun preparing some things to say, maybe some flyers to hand out, and some nice, soundbite-able quotes for the press.
Definitely have fliers. We need to be in the habit of that for all our protests. The protest is great for getting attention, but it's there to send a message and a lot of people get curious what we're protesting about and we have to try and explain a complex message in a very short time and not everyone has the patience or maybe they're just a little too weirded out to talk.
Quote from: Coconut on October 03, 2008, 08:16 AM NHFT
Quote from: Radical and Stuff on October 03, 2008, 01:10 AM NHFT
How will they know Jesse is a member of the FSP (if he is even one).
The people around here have a way of knowing. Possibly if Ian and other free-state signers are around at the time.
If I go, I will be covering it as a news event, not attending as a supporter. The pledge is one of the most evil things this country has, but burning the flag will not be taken in a positive manner.
Yeah, even I cannot figure out what burning the US flag has to do with the pledge. I'd never see a serious connection unless someone explained it step by step and then I'd likely just think they had a different opinion than I. If I was upset about the pledge I'd stop saying it in school (which I did) and encourage others to not say it (which I did). If someone likes to burn stuff, I guess I get the idea of burning the pledge.
Quote from: dalebert on October 03, 2008, 02:45 PM NHFT
Definitely have fliers. We need to be in the habit of that for all our protests. The protest is great for getting attention, but it's there to send a message and a lot of people get curious what we're protesting about and we have to try and explain a complex message in a very short time and not everyone has the patience or maybe they're just a little too weirded out to talk.
Right. I often feel that the anti-war protest we have every weekend is flawed for that reason. Sure, we hold signs and I tell the hecklers to "blow me/go fuck yourself/get an education", but something is lost in only putting small slogans on paperboard. We don't actually get time to address the points of our argument, or theirs for that matter- and that's a huge loss in trying to convince people of your point of view.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 03, 2008, 11:45 AM NHFT
I'm getting some heat from other Free Staters it seems on this-
To them I say "Fuck you. If the State can take my money, shove it's views down my throat, and threaten me with incarceration for victimless 'crimes', I see no reason to not burn a flag."
well...um...thats not very nice. i only said that people probably won't get it.
QuoteBut yes, I will be going to the Free Press, Sentinel, and Equinox about these things.
Awesome. :)
QuoteDefinitely have fliers. We need to be in the habit of that for all our protests. The protest is great for getting attention, but it's there to send a message and a lot of people get curious what we're protesting about and we have to try and explain a complex message in a very short time and not everyone has the patience or maybe they're just a little too weirded out to talk.
Great point. :)
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 03, 2008, 02:39 PM NHFT
But yes, I will be going to the Free Press, Sentinel, and Equinox about these things. Free Press and Equinox I know I can get- it's the Sentinel that is the wild card. I have begun preparing some things to say, maybe some flyers to hand out, and some nice, soundbite-able quotes for the press.
If you work up a press release, I'll blast it out to Keene media via Free Keene News. I have a couple Sentinel writers, WKBK, and more on my email list.
Quote from: Jared on October 03, 2008, 03:02 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 03, 2008, 11:45 AM NHFT
I'm getting some heat from other Free Staters it seems on this-
To them I say "Fuck you. If the State can take my money, shove it's views down my throat, and threaten me with incarceration for victimless 'crimes', I see no reason to not burn a flag."
well...um...thats not very nice. i only said that people probably won't get it.
Not you :P
Some people have been more... unkind in expressing their views on it. I was addressing them.
I oppose this. I agree entirely with your rational, fuck the gov't. But to many the flag represents the people, and it will be like burning people many care about. I wish you wouldn't do this, but if you do, be ready with an explanation why, have lots of cameras, and please, to avoid unnecessary drama with the politicos, please do not wear an fsp shirt. Good luck.
I will be there with video camera as a member of the media. It's not my choice of protest, but I support Jesse in his decision. He's a lot brave and a little crazy. I respect that.
I really don't understand why some people here are so adamantly opposed to Jesse's burning the U.S. government flag. The nub of their opposition seems to be that flag-burning will injure the pride of some tender-hearted nationalist. Why should Jesse (or anyone else here for that matter) feel motivated to preserve their statist delusions?
The hard truth creates an unpleasant cognitive dissonance to the heavily indoctrinated. Whether you peel the bandage off painfully slowly or rip it off quick and get it over with, the pain must be dealt with sooner or later.
I'm mostly concerned for Jesse's health. When the fat, angry nationalist was threatening to attack Roger and I at the anti-torture protest, it was Kat and Lauren who protected us - he wouldn't attack the women, so they got in his way.
i don't know if this is good or bad but...even though i'm still sort of opposed to the idea, i REALLY wish i could be there for it. i'm incredibly curious as to how all the nationalists will react...and like ian said, i want to be there to help out in case they start to attack the poor guy : /
Quote from: David on October 04, 2008, 12:14 AM NHFT
I oppose this. I agree entirely with your rational, fuck the gov't. But to many the flag represents the people, and it will be like burning people many care about. I wish you wouldn't do this, but if you do, be ready with an explanation why, have lots of cameras, and please, to avoid unnecessary drama with the politicos, please do not wear an fsp shirt. Good luck.
David, I am REALLY surprised to see you take this position. Burning the flag is completely nonviolent, and for you to try to do mental gymnastics to try to portray it as somehow violent "like burning people many care about" is just ridiculous.
How, exactly, are we supposed to confront the idea of nationalism without stepping on any toes? Maybe we should just ignore nationalism and hope it goes away? Your argument seems to go like this, "If we challenge their nationalism, they might get offended so let's not do it." I think that is sort of the point, demonstrated visually: I am offended by what they are doing. Why shouldn't I offend them?
What I plan on telling people is that I'll stop burning their flag when they stop caring about it.
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 12:56 PM NHFT
I'll stop burning their flag when they stop caring about it.
;D I like this quote.
Quote from: dalebert on October 04, 2008, 01:35 PM NHFT
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 12:56 PM NHFT
I'll stop burning their flag when they stop caring about it.
;D I like this quote.
unfortunately, filtered through nationalist ears, this will translate "i'll stop being a terrorist when you stop loving your pathetic country, infidel!"
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 02:01 PM NHFT
unfortunately, filtered through nationalist ears, this will translate "i'll stop being a terrorist when you stop loving your pathetic country, infidel!"
So suggest to me a tactful way to tell a nationalist that nationalism is evil and at the root of problem?
Quote from: dalebert on October 04, 2008, 04:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 02:01 PM NHFT
unfortunately, filtered through nationalist ears, this will translate "i'll stop being a terrorist when you stop loving your pathetic country, infidel!"
So suggest to me a tactful way to tell a nationalist that nationalism is evil and at the root of problem?
Indeed; while it may be a bit "over the top" for some people, this is not a message that they'll take lightly any way it is put to them. By exposing them to the more radical end of what we're saying, we're honestly getting them past the worst part about it- destroying the symbols of oppression.
Quote from: dalebert on October 04, 2008, 04:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 02:01 PM NHFT
unfortunately, filtered through nationalist ears, this will translate "i'll stop being a terrorist when you stop loving your pathetic country, infidel!"
So suggest to me a tactful way to tell a nationalist that nationalism is evil and at the root of problem?
i dont think there is one
I think that burning their flag is actually a very mild form of protesting nationalism compared to some of them. One of the ways that really boils people's blood is to say this:
"Without resorting to an appeal to nationalism, please explain to me the difference between a Nazi soldier and a US Marine."
Just curious Jesse, how will you handle the violent responce which you really should be prepared for?
I hope it doesn't happen but (I think) you should be prepared in whatever way you think is best.
IMO, All camera people present should be on alert to capture any (government or private) attacks on Jesse.
One more thought; no city flag? ;D
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 12:56 PM NHFT.
How, exactly, are we supposed to confront the idea of nationalism without stepping on any toes? Maybe we should just ignore nationalism and hope it goes away?
That's an interesting question.
I'm opposed to burning the US flag myself (opposed meaning I wouldn't do it and don't find it the most productive task I could partake in) but that doesn't mean that I conclude such an act would be totally unproductive.
The funny thing about nationalists getting mad about people burning the flag is that, to them, the flag represents freedom. It's a faith for them. And faith, being belief without factual basis, is the most unshakable basis of belief. Incorrect logic can be disproven with correct logic. Faith cannot.
Burning the flag becomes burning what they think that they believe in. It's a shock that may often just make them angry, and more grounded in their faith. Passive suggestion is one of the best ways to win an 'argument' because the opponent has no reason to feel his view has been threatened, and has no reason not to view one's points logically and consider them. Maybe shocking events like flag burnings are needed just to draw the issue (nationalism) into question, but in changing minds, it will come down to the repetitive assertion of liberty, simply defining it for nationalists without being condescending or shocking them, so they may understand that the flag is not freedom.
Quote from: John on October 04, 2008, 08:15 PM NHFT
Just curious Jesse, how will you handle the violent responce which you really should be prepared for?
Depends. I think I may ask one or two people to discreetly open carry so to mitigate any response of that sort. This in itself was a tough call, given that I don't want to send mixed signals- but I do want to be clear from harm. Otherwise, I might try and set up some barriers between myself and the audience.
QuoteI hope it doesn't happen but (I think) you should be prepared in whatever way you think is best.
I'm going to try.
QuoteIMO, All camera people present should be on alert to capture any (government or private) attacks on Jesse.
THIS THIS THIS.
QuoteOne more thought; no city flag? ;D
If you find one, I'll burn it.
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 07:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: dalebert on October 04, 2008, 04:52 PM NHFT
So suggest to me a tactful way to tell a nationalist that nationalism is evil and at the root of problem?
i dont think there is one
Exactly. These are ideas many people have never been exposed to and until they do, no dialogue can start which would begin to explain to them what's wrong with their indoctrinated views of the world. They certainly won't get it right away but it's a first step. I've been pressing for us to always have fliers to explain things. The acts of CD get attention, but don't explain anything. You have to take further steps.
My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this? What positive end will result? I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?.
Quote from: David on October 04, 2008, 09:16 PM NHFT
My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this? What positive end will result? I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?.
I just talked about this. Like any CD, it's meant to get attention but should then be followed up with dialogue. Jesse is trying to notify the press. I know one reporter has already said he'd be there.
I was just having another thought about this. It reminds me that many of us (myself included) find political activity to be counter-productive and we had a long dialogue about that a while back that eventually kind of cooled down and everyone is getting along for the most part. We still talk about our differences, but it seems like a much tamer conversation and we even rib each other about it and such. I suspect this will go the same way. I hope it will go the same way. I know Jesse has gotten some really harsh responses from some that seem uncalled for, some privately. Disagreements are to be expected, just like our disagreements over political activism, but we should try to be civil about it. In the end, I consider the vast majority of FSPers to be friends and allies, even the ones who are engaged in some things I personally feel are counter-productive.
Quote from: David on October 04, 2008, 09:16 PM NHFT
My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this? What positive end will result? I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?.
I was thinking the same thing...not that there's nothing to be gained but whether this is the most effective thing to do.
At best, it starts dialogues between people as to whether freedom means the freedom to burn a cloth that has a symbolic value. In high school, I remember watching videos on flag burners (all socialists) in what passed for a history class, and thinking 'wow, those greasy commies wanna force me to pay for their problems and also burn 'my' flag/representation of freedom, while they rally to take away my freedom' (economic freedom). I was against the idea of flag burning (I guess I supported it being a victimless crime back then, we didn't talk about enforcement either way) because I saw it as an act only totalitarians would want to take part in.
If it is expressed that a non-totalitarian is burning a flag, that will be as revealing as learning that not everyone at rallies to end the drug war is a user. I just question whether that point will be realized by all who see the headline that someone burnt a flag in Keene.
Their first reaction will be "He must hate freedom!"
Also: I don't know where exactly the central square is, but if it's visible from the road, something to consider is cops will consider it disorderly conduct to do anything which may interfere with a driver's attention. Not saying I agree, but it's something to be aware of. Of course, a flag may not take so long to go up in flames as to give them time to tell you to stop causing a distraction to driver's.
Quote from: Giggan on October 04, 2008, 09:29 PM NHFT
Quote from: David on October 04, 2008, 09:16 PM NHFT
My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this? What positive end will result? I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?.
I was thinking the same thing...not that there's nothing to be gained but whether this is the most effective thing to do.
At best, it starts dialogues between people as to whether freedom means the freedom to burn a cloth that has a symbolic value. In high school, I remember watching videos on flag burners (all socialists) in what passed for a history class, and thinking 'wow, those greasy commies wanna force me to pay for their problems and also burn 'my' flag/representation of freedom, while they rally to take away my freedom' (economic freedom). I was against the idea of flag burning (I guess I supported it being a victimless crime back then, we didn't talk about enforcement either way) because I saw it as an act only totalitarians would want to take part in.
If it is expressed that a non-totalitarian is burning a flag, that will be as revealing as learning that not everyone at rallies to end the drug war is a user. I just question whether that point will be realized by all who see the headline that someone burnt a flag in Keene.
Their first reaction will be "He must hate freedom!"
Also: I don't know where exactly the central square is, but if it's visible from the road, something to consider is cops will consider it disorderly conduct to do anything which may interfere with a driver's attention. Not saying I agree, but it's something to be aware of. Of course, a flag may not take so long to go up in flames as to give them time to tell you to stop causing a distraction to driver's.
1. If people ought to be so concerned for how others will interpret an action, why do none seemed to be concerned that them flying a flag is an endorsement of tyranny and oppression? Do I not have the same right to be angry and refuse their ideas, and take an action that shows such? This is precisely why I'm doing this- Political activity offends me; flags symbolic of violence, rape, and theft offend me (and should any moral being); my act is one of expressing my dissatisfaction with these institutionalized concepts- because, like it or not, they are inherent to the contemporary institutions. You people taking this approach may as well say "you shouldn't call taxation theft!" or "you shouldn't call government coercive!".
2. Part of the flag burning is that it will be multiple CD- gathering without a permit, disorderly conduct, burning without a permit, etc. This isn't simply a flag burning.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 04, 2008, 09:38 PM NHFT
Quote from: Giggan on October 04, 2008, 09:29 PM NHFT
Quote from: David on October 04, 2008, 09:16 PM NHFT
My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this? What positive end will result? I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?.
I was thinking the same thing...not that there's nothing to be gained but whether this is the most effective thing to do.
At best, it starts dialogues between people as to whether freedom means the freedom to burn a cloth that has a symbolic value. In high school, I remember watching videos on flag burners (all socialists) in what passed for a history class, and thinking 'wow, those greasy commies wanna force me to pay for the
ir problems and also burn 'my' flag/representation of freedom, while they rally to take away my freedom' (economic freedom). I was against the idea of flag burning (I guess I supported it being a victimless crime back then, we didn't talk about enforcement either way) because I saw it as an act only totalitarians would want to take part in.
If it is expressed that a non-totalitarian is burning a flag, that will be as revealing as learning that not everyone at rallies to end the drug war is a user. I just question whether that point will be realized by all who see the headline that someone burnt a flag in Keene.
Their first reaction will be "He must hate freedom!"
Also: I don't know where exactly the central square is, but if it's visible from the road, something to consider is cops will consider it disorderly conduct to do anything which may interfere with a driver's attention. Not saying I agree, but it's something to be aware of. Of course, a flag may not take so long to go up in flames as to give them time to tell you to stop causing a distraction to driver's.
1. If people ought to be so concerned for how others will interpret an action, why do none seemed to be concerned that them flying a flag is an endorsement of tyranny and oppression? Do I not have the same right to be angry and refuse their ideas, and take an action that shows such? This is precisely why I'm doing this- Political activity offends me; flags symbolic of violence, rape, and theft offend me (and should any moral being); my act is one of expressing my dissatisfaction with these institutionalized concepts- because, like it or not, they are inherent to the contemporary institutions. You people taking this approach may as well say "you shouldn't call taxation theft!" or "you shouldn't call government coercive!".
2. Part of the flag burning is that it will be multiple CD- gathering without a permit, disorderly conduct, burning without a permit, etc. This isn't simply a flag burning.
i don't see any problem in have a us flag waving at one's house. it doesn't necessarily mean that one supports the government.
Giggan, if you keep waiting for the perfect civil disobedience, it will never happen.
This is always the complaint about CD/noncooperation:
"Couldn't you have picked a better issue than an IRS protest / drivers registration / couch in the yard / flag burn?"
Jesse has decided to burn a flag. Actually, three flags - which is already a better protest than just burning the US flag. He should be commended for having the courage to engage in such a protest, and for DOING SOMETHING. Sure, it may not be ideal, but at least he's doing something.
Those reading, please don't take this the wrong way - I'm not suggesting you're doing nothing, just that those taking peaceful action should be applauded for their efforts instead of having potshots taken at them. (I'm referring to the nasty PMs he's gotten, not you, Giggan.)
We know by now the politicos are highly critical of CD, and their negative responses should be expected and rejected. Onward and upward!
Jesse should be congratulated. I'm too chicken to engage in this protest, but I support the idea 100%. Shame this doesn't happen more often. Maybe then people wouldn't get so offended.
The flag is the symbol of the state. Period. You can attach whatever warm and fuzzy feelings you'd like to it, but in the end, that's all it is. It's a symbol of centralized control and power.
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
i don't see any problem in have a us flag waving at one's house. it doesn't necessarily mean that one supports the government.
The point here is that if we're simply to judge the "worth" of an act of civil disobedience by who it might offend -which we have already established is a matter of interpretation-, why do none care about MY interpretation, and why shouldn't I be permitted to voice it?
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 04, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
This is always the complaint about CD/noncooperation:
"Couldn't you have picked a better issue than an IRS protest / drivers registration / couch in the yard / flag burn?"
that's a very good point. it seems like it will NEVER be the "right" kind of protest/cd to most people.
btw, i'm not saying anything about warm and fuzzy feelings. all i'm saying, is that the american flag can just as easily represent a love for one's specific plot of land (and an appreciation for the american revolution) without involving the government...at least that's the way i see it. i guess this is one of those arguments that could potentially result in a ten page thread, so hopefully it doesn't go there :P.
Quote from: Giggan on October 04, 2008, 08:41 PM NHFT
Burning the flag becomes burning what they think that they believe in.
I really have no particular sympathy for anyone beyond the age of about 6 who can't tell the difference between a symbol and that which it purportedly symbolizes. Maybe a flag-burning will finally get them angry enough to start thinking for once--something had better, because until they do, they're a drag on my rights, and I'm sick of it.
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 09:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 04, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
This is always the complaint about CD/noncooperation:
"Couldn't you have picked a better issue than an IRS protest / drivers registration / couch in the yard / flag burn?"
that's a very good point. it seems like it will NEVER be the "right" kind of protest/cd to most people.
btw, i'm not saying anything about warm and fuzzy feelings. all i'm saying, is that the american flag can just as easily represent a love for one's specific plot of land (and an appreciation for the american revolution) without involving the government...at least that's the way i see it. i guess this is one of those arguments that could potentially result in a ten page thread, so hopefully it doesn't go there :P.
See though, this becomes the crux of the situation- if the flag is wholly symbolic, the symbolism is dependent on the observer, how can we state one way or another that my act is wrong/could be misinterpreted/etc. when the very valuation is wholly dependent on a personal whim? I would actually consider the Gadsden Flag to be more in line with loving your plot of land and the Revolution- but again, this all becomes a matter of interpretation. We would essentially dead-lock in "why is your interpretation better than mine?" if we continued with this vein of thought.
Quote from: David on October 04, 2008, 09:16 PM NHFT... "my country right or wrong" ...
David is quoting one part (which most all of the nationalists will know. (I know David is not one.)
What is generally not remembered any longer (by most people) is the rest of the sentence; "...
when right to stand by her: when wrong to set her right again."
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 04, 2008, 10:00 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 09:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 04, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
This is always the complaint about CD/noncooperation:
"Couldn't you have picked a better issue than an IRS protest / drivers registration / couch in the yard / flag burn?"
that's a very good point. it seems like it will NEVER be the "right" kind of protest/cd to most people.
btw, i'm not saying anything about warm and fuzzy feelings. all i'm saying, is that the american flag can just as easily represent a love for one's specific plot of land (and an appreciation for the american revolution) without involving the government...at least that's the way i see it. i guess this is one of those arguments that could potentially result in a ten page thread, so hopefully it doesn't go there :P.
See though, this becomes the crux of the situation- if the flag is wholly symbolic, the symbolism is dependent on the observer, how can we state one way or another that my act is wrong/could be misinterpreted/etc. when the very valuation is wholly dependent on a personal whim? I would actually consider the Gadsden Flag to be more in line with loving your plot of land and the Revolution- but again, this all becomes a matter of interpretation. We would essentially dead-lock in "why is your interpretation better than mine?" if we continued with this vein of thought.
that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.
it is funny how many people will try to talk you out of this or instruct you in private messages
Quote from: Coconut on October 03, 2008, 08:16 AM NHFT... but burning the flag will not be taken in a positive manner.
it will by me
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 10:06 PM NHFT
that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.
I thought we've covered this >.>
Not only will we have the local press and Ian, but we'll also have pamphlets and flyers that we'll be handing out. If someone gets me a bull horn, I'll say a few words.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 03, 2008, 09:57 AM NHFT
And that, right there, sums up the goal. For every election that is held, I will burn a flag. For every parade praising murderers and institutionalized thugs, I will burn a flag. If these people can share their views so overtly, I can do the same. It would be a two-faced act to suggest dismantling the State but stop short of burning a piece of cloth that represents it because "the wrong message might be sent across".
sounds good to me ... when there are nationalist or patriotic public displays, you can display your disgust of the rotten US government system
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 04, 2008, 10:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 10:06 PM NHFT
that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.
I thought we've covered this >.>
Not only will we have the local press and Ian, but we'll also have pamphlets and flyers that we'll be handing out. If someone gets me a bull horn, I'll say a few words.
yes, that is why in my post i specifically said "verbally"
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 04, 2008, 10:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: Coconut on October 03, 2008, 08:16 AM NHFT... but burning the flag will not be taken in a positive manner.
it will by me
and me as well, although i'm getting the impression that a couple people on this forum think that i am against the idea of flag burning. of course, as i have posted before, that is not the case. i don't think i'm reaching in saying that most people will probably misunderstand this.
Quote from: John on October 04, 2008, 08:15 PM NHFT
Just curious Jesse, how will you handle the violent responce which you really should be prepared for?
I agree John.
also if you are going to watch this ... how are you going to react?
If I make it to this event, I plan on cheering Jesse on, but I won't be able to do anything if someone was to start beating him senseless. I would think you will be fine, but your point will be illustrated if you are attacked physically.
Quote from: David on October 04, 2008, 09:16 PM NHFT
My question, other than pissing people off, is, what is to be gained from this? What positive end will result? I agree that it is non-violent, and I am disgusted by nationalism/my country right or wrong, but what is to be gained?.
I don't know about you ... but I am encouraged by this behavior ... others might be also
I look at this as very similar to me standing in front of the fed building with a sign against torture
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 04, 2008, 09:00 PM NHFT
Depends. I think I may ask one or two people to discreetly open carry so to mitigate any response of that sort. This in itself was a tough call, given that I don't want to send mixed signals- but I do want to be clear from harm. Otherwise, I might try and set up some barriers between myself and the audience.
I would think that threatening or having the ability to inflict deadly force would be a mistake.
I don't think you can have barriers between you and the crowd ... since this isn't your yard or something ... you will have to open yourself to ridicule, threats, and abuse.
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 07:29 PM NHFT
One of the ways that really boils people's blood is to say this:
"Without resorting to an appeal to nationalism, please explain to me the difference between a Nazi soldier and a US Marine."
Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue? Rather than confirming (in their minds) that you're some kind of anti-American communist (nothing personal, Caleb ;) ;D ), a redirection towards something that tests their way of thinking.
So, how about this: "Can you explain to me the difference between burning a flag, and stepping on a Qur'an?"
This immediately puts them in the position of facing the fact that their angry, violent response toward flag-burning is exactly like something they despise: a Muslim reacting angrily and violently toward desecration of their holy book.
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 12:56 PM NHFT
What I plan on telling people is that I'll stop burning their flag when they stop caring about it.
that statement is even more powerful ... when you are actually burning flags on a regular basis. :)
Quote from: David on October 04, 2008, 12:14 AM NHFT
I oppose this.
But to many the flag represents the people, and it will be like burning people many care about. I wish you wouldn't do this, but if you do, be ready with an explanation why, have lots of cameras, and please, to avoid unnecessary drama with the politicos, please do not wear an fsp shirt. Good luck.
I support this.
ask the government ... it represents the US government ... that is what it represents to me.
making politicos uncomfortable is part of what this movement is about ... no?
It is not like Jesse is going to hurt people. This is a very graphic non-violent way to show your disapproval of the government and it's tactics. I might have to burn a gold-fringed one soon ... just like the ones that hung in the courtroom where my lovely wife was "convicted" by a fed judge and sent to jail to punish her and attempt to teach her a lesson.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 04, 2008, 10:31 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 04, 2008, 09:00 PM NHFT
Depends. I think I may ask one or two people to discreetly open carry so to mitigate any response of that sort. This in itself was a tough call, given that I don't want to send mixed signals- but I do want to be clear from harm. Otherwise, I might try and set up some barriers between myself and the audience.
I would think that threatening or having the ability to inflict deadly force would be a mistake.
Which is why it's a tough call for me. On the one hand, I really DON'T want to have ask a friend to pack
just in case. But then the tiny bit of me that doesn't want to get his teeth knocked out or worse is saying "it can't hurt to at least show you can be defended".
QuoteI don't think you can have barriers between you and the crowd ... since this isn't your yard or something ... you will have to open yourself to ridicule, threats, and abuse.
When I say barrier, I mean maybe standing behind the small fence that way if anyone tries to rush me, they've to at least climb over it, and it gives everyone else time to react. I don't plan on shielding myself from the cat calls or other such nonsense.
I would really appreciate a press release so I can put it in the paper .... this thread is too long and just announcing the event is too short
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 04, 2008, 10:38 PM NHFT
I would really appreciate a press release so I can put it in the paper .... this thread is too long and just announcing the event is too short
I'll get one to you by Tuesday.
Quote from: Giggan on October 04, 2008, 09:29 PM NHFT
I was thinking the same thing...not that there's nothing to be gained but whether this is the most effective thing to do.
It might not be the most effective thing.
Is it hurting your or your cause? ... then maybe you should just let it happen. :)
If you have something better ... then why not just do it?
It is partially meant to bring about discussion ... it is already doing that .... pretty powerful eh :)
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
i don't see any problem in have a us flag waving at one's house. it doesn't necessarily mean that one supports the government.
that's how I interpret it
also if you abuse a US flag ... the government will do bad things to you ... sure sounds like it is their flag.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 04, 2008, 10:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 12:56 PM NHFT
What I plan on telling people is that I'll stop burning their flag when they stop caring about it.
that statement is even more powerful ... when you are actually burning flags on a regular basis. :)
That's the intent. :) Anarcho-Jessie has revived my interest in attacking their symbols. They certainly invest a lot in their symbols. I would be foolish to ignore the symbology of it all.
I agree that there needs to be written material to go along with it, so people understand what you are saying. I am thinking a weekly flag burning (beginning on election day) until such time as the US is not engaging in any provocative activities around the world.
I also think that this should be done as a pledgebank thing to see how many people across the country can be on board for burning a flag on election day, at least.
ok, here it is: www.pledgebank.com/burntheflag
Quote from: KBCraig on October 04, 2008, 10:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 07:29 PM NHFT
One of the ways that really boils people's blood is to say this:
"Without resorting to an appeal to nationalism, please explain to me the difference between a Nazi soldier and a US Marine."
Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue? Rather than confirming (in their minds) that you're some kind of anti-American communist (nothing personal, Caleb ;) ;D ), a redirection towards something that tests their way of thinking.
So, how about this: "Can you explain to me the difference between burning a flag, and stepping on a Qur'an?"
This immediately puts them in the position of facing the fact that their angry, violent response toward flag-burning is exactly like something they despise: a Muslim reacting angrily and violently toward desecration of their holy book.
Here's the thing, KB: while going around offending people is NOT my goal in life, the fact of the matter is that symbols are very powerful in the human mind. For some psychological reason we seem to cling to them. I do not think it is possible to undermine an idea without first attacking the symbol which represents it. Like it or not, the US flag is the symbol of "proud to be an American," which is exactly the attitude that causes the senseless warfare and bigotry. "Go back where you came from wetback!" "Let's bomb those towelheads back to the stone age" ad nauseum. When one's bigotries cause senseless suffering for others, the duty of every human is to challenge those bigotries. I see no profound difference between racism and nationalism. It is pretty much the same disease. And if America was not a multiethnic society, it would be more clear to us that racism and nationalism are nearly synonymous forms of the same stupidity.
Put more simply: I see no difference between burning a US Flag and desecrating a symbol of the KKK. If a person is offended by this activity, it is not my fault but is, instead, caused by a defect in that person's own character.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 04, 2008, 10:26 PM NHFTif you are going to watch this ... how are you going to react?
Unfortunately I will be unable to be in Keene on that day. (Very tough work situation these days.)
If I could be there, I'd still be unwilling to burn a US or NH flag.
I would however stand with Jesse. Rights are very important to stand by.
I would maybe display/hold a US flag in the distress position ... camera in other hand ... I would surely position myself in a location most likely to deter an attack on Jesse ... If/when an attack was to begin I would (at a minimum) help slow the attack . . .
So....Caleb! How many US flags have you burned, now?
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 11:10 PM NHFT
I agree that there needs to be written material to go along with it, so people understand what you are saying. I am thinking a weekly flag burning (beginning on election day) until such time as the US is not engaging in any provocative activities around the world.
I like the idea.
I might join you if the feds ever let go of Kat.
Quote from: John on October 04, 2008, 11:25 PM NHFT
I would maybe display/hold a US flag in the distress position ... camera in other hand ...
I have seen people go nuts with a simple distress US flag .... it is amazing the reactions you get.
They'll citation you for not having a burn permit...
Double CD
Quote from: KBCraig on October 04, 2008, 10:32 PM NHFT
Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue?
I'm probably the only person on Earth to have come to libertarianism through Steve Ditko's comic books, but when I first read
Avenging World, it made me so angry, I threw it across the room. The ideas in it wouldn't go away, though, and I continued thinking about them--mostly in an attempt to refute them. I could finally no longer escape the fact that what I was really angry with was myself and the flawed belief system I'd bought into.
So, to answer your question, yes.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 04, 2008, 09:40 PM NHFT
We know by now the politicos are highly critical of CD
I've been criticized for this particular phrase, so I'll correct it:
We know by now MANY OF the politicos are highly critical of CD :P
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 04, 2008, 10:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 10:06 PM NHFT
that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.
I thought we've covered this >.>
Not only will we have the local press and Ian, but we'll also have pamphlets and flyers that we'll be handing out. If someone gets me a bull horn, I'll say a few words.
I hope you'll make a statement even without a bullhorn. The park is small and quiet, and I've heard you project your voice pretty effectively...
I think Ryder Report will also be covering the event.
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 11:10 PM NHFT
I agree that there needs to be written material to go along with it, so people understand what you are saying. I am thinking a weekly flag burning (beginning on election day) until such time as the US is not engaging in any provocative activities around the world.
Weekly could get pretty expensive. Monthly or quarterly would be plenty often to get people to be aware that it's done consistently.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 04, 2008, 10:41 PM NHFT
It is partially meant to bring about discussion ... it is already doing that .... pretty powerful eh :)
Yep. An issue that divides the voluntaryists must be a potent issue! 8)
I bet this story will get picked up by the AP. Will it blow big, or be mostly ignored?
Quote from: Giggan on October 04, 2008, 08:41 PM NHFT
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 12:56 PM NHFT.
How, exactly, are we supposed to confront the idea of nationalism without stepping on any toes? Maybe we should just ignore nationalism and hope it goes away?
That's an interesting question.
I'm opposed to burning the US flag myself (opposed meaning I wouldn't do it and don't find it the most productive task I could partake in) but that doesn't mean that I conclude such an act would be totally unproductive.
The funny thing about nationalists getting mad about people burning the flag is that, to them, the flag represents freedom. It's a faith for them. And faith, being belief without factual basis, is the most unshakable basis of belief. Incorrect logic can be disproven with correct logic. Faith cannot.
Burning the flag becomes burning what they think that they believe in. It's a shock that may often just make them angry, and more grounded in their faith. Passive suggestion is one of the best ways to win an 'argument' because the opponent has no reason to feel his view has been threatened, and has no reason not to view one's points logically and consider them. Maybe shocking events like flag burnings are needed just to draw the issue (nationalism) into question, but in changing minds, it will come down to the repetitive assertion of liberty, simply defining it for nationalists without being condescending or shocking them, so they may understand that the flag is not freedom.
:clap:
Quote from: dalebert on October 04, 2008, 04:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 02:01 PM NHFT
unfortunately, filtered through nationalist ears, this will translate "i'll stop being a terrorist when you stop loving your pathetic country, infidel!"
So suggest to me a tactful way to tell a nationalist that nationalism is evil and at the root of problem?
You do this all the time, Dale, with your comic.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 05, 2008, 06:08 AM NHFT
Quote from: John on October 04, 2008, 11:25 PM NHFT
I would maybe display/hold a US flag in the distress position ... camera in other hand ...
I have seen people go nuts with a simple distress US flag .... it is amazing the reactions you get.
Sure is. I recall protesting the feds in Concord with my US flag upside down on a pole when some really big redneck wannabe dude stopped in his pickup truck at the red light. He spotted me with my flag, and he turned about as mad as a hornet.
He started hollering at me,
"You better fly that flag the way it's supposted to be flow [I was sure he'd call me boy but didn't]
mother fucker!" He got the same responce anyone would get from me. I smiled and waved to him.
As an aside, here's the funny part: When the light turned green and he began to drive away, I saw that the entire back window of this truck displayed the Confederate flag. "Wow," I said out load to myself, "Now there's a boy who is really confused about the meaning of flags." I still laugh every time I recall this incident.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 05, 2008, 08:36 AM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 04, 2008, 10:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 10:06 PM NHFT
that's sort of why i feel this may be ineffective...will you be verbally giving a statement before/during the act? i think that may help people understand a little better.
I thought we've covered this >.>
Not only will we have the local press and Ian, but we'll also have pamphlets and flyers that we'll be handing out. If someone gets me a bull horn, I'll say a few words.
I hope you'll make a statement even without a bullhorn. The park is small and quiet, and I've heard you project your voice pretty effectively...
I think Ryder Report will also be covering the event.
Yeah, I can carry my voice :P
I'll be saying something bull horn or not. I was just thinking of how difficult it might be to carry my voice over the shouts of the nationalists.
Quote from: KBCraig on October 04, 2008, 10:32 PM NHFT
Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue?
Yes, I think it does actually. And if we manage to remain calm while explaining our positions while they're shouting angrily and reacting emotionally, in time that boiling blood can lead to the next important step, also unpleasant but unfortunately unavoidable-- cognitive dissonance.
Quote from: KBCraig on October 04, 2008, 10:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 07:29 PM NHFT
One of the ways that really boils people's blood is to say this:
"Without resorting to an appeal to nationalism, please explain to me the difference between a Nazi soldier and a US Marine."
Does boiling their blood help open a dialogue?
Sure does. Yesterday, I stood out in Central Square with a sign that said "Voting is glorified gang-rape". Naturally, some people were VERY upset- but it also got dialogue going.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 05, 2008, 08:36 AM NHFT
I think Ryder Report will also be covering the event.
Well, "Ryder Report" is not an individual or organization and can't cover events. It's the name of a product produced by myself under the name of my company 8)
Semantics aside, I probably won't be able to stay away because of the possible action that will happen, though I still say that aggression against an obscure symbol like the flag will just make freedom-lovers look like wackos. I would doubt anyone would watch it and rub their chin in some pensive way thinking "I wonder why that man is doing that." Converts are not won in sudden, shocking ways. It takes time, as probably most people on this forum know if they think back to where they came from. Attacking something someone holds as valuable does not rip it away from them, it just causes them to hold it tighter.
I used to blindly advocate nationalistic things. I didn't have to feel aggresssed against to change my mind over time. Well, not too badly at least.
One suggestion, Jesse, is to have handouts of your full statement available to the press (and public).
The press love it when you make their jobs easier for them, and they can reward you by quoting you more directly. ;)
Also, keeping the public statement very short makes it harder for anyone to take part(s) of it out of context.
Every time this topic comes up I never cease to be surprised at the squeamishness of some people who say that they love liberty. It really is amazing. They kill MILLIONS of people. MILLIONS. They drop bombs on populated areas killing people indiscriminately. How many children have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan alone? The US is about mass murder.
But the second someone tries to call attention to that by doing something as inoffensive as burning a piece of fricking CLOTH ... even so-called "liberty lovers" get their panties all bunched up about it. We have more sympathy for a patch of died cotton than we do for murdered human beings.
Is burning a flag ugly? Maybe. But it's a whole hell of a lot less ugly than murdering millions of people. Because that is what the flag means to me. When I see it displayed, THAT is the message that I see: "I'm proud of my country being a bad-ass, fuck the rest of the world. Fuck our victims. We rule. These colors don't run."
They may not run. But they do burn.
Quote from: Coconut on October 05, 2008, 10:08 AM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 05, 2008, 08:36 AM NHFT
I think Ryder Report will also be covering the event.
Well, "Ryder Report" is not an individual or organization and can't cover events. It's the name of a product produced by myself under the name of my company 8)
Semantics aside, I probably won't be able to stay away because of the possible action that will happen, though I still say that aggression against an obscure symbol like the flag will just make freedom-lovers look like wackos. I would doubt anyone would watch it and rub their chin in some pensive way thinking "I wonder why that man is doing that." Converts are not won in sudden, shocking ways. It takes time, as probably most people on this forum know if they think back to where they came from. Attacking something someone holds as valuable does not rip it away from them, it just causes them to hold it tighter.
I used to blindly advocate nationalistic things. I didn't have to feel aggresssed against to change my mind over time. Well, not too badly at least.
I see where you're coming from, but I don't think anyone believes this will convert someone. If it creates cognitive dissonance and discussion in some, it is worthwhile. Virtually anything we do will piss *somebody* off - it's the nature of activism and taking a firm position.
I agree with much of the sentiment expressed earlier. They have parades and such to push their nationalism, so burning their symbols seems to be an appropriate "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" sort of response.
Good points by everyone. AnarchoJesse, I do appreciate that you are doing something to spread liberty.
I was thinking back on security for this, and while open carry would be a good deterrant of potential attackers, obviously you don't want to have to shoot someone who attacks calling your bluff that you wouldn't shoot them, or in their rage simply doesn't noticed armed people around.
Somebody may want to have a taser in the crew. Hopefully, the event will go peacefully, but if there are any disturbances, tasing the agressor would probably be the safest way to dissolve a fight. Getting in between people throwing shots can be very dangerous, even if there is only one agressor.
jessie, i have a question...and btw, i am so intrigued that i may actually have to make it out to this if i can. anyway, my question is - do you want to be protected? i mean, if a bunch of rednecks try to attack you, would you want us to help physically defend you?
I didn't read this whole thread... my apologies.
I suggest that there be a very serous and solemn ceremony before "sanctifying" the flag.
Quote from: Facilitator to the Icon on October 05, 2008, 06:42 PM NHFT
I didn't read this whole thread... my apologies.
I suggest that there be a very serous and solemn ceremony before "sanctifying" the flag.
This isn't sanctification. This is desecration. There will be no "ceremony" about this.
Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.
Quote from: Jared on October 05, 2008, 04:46 PM NHFT
jessie, i have a question...and btw, i am so intrigued that i may actually have to make it out to this if i can. anyway, my question is - do you want to be protected? i mean, if a bunch of rednecks try to attack you, would you want us to help physically defend you?
Do I want to have my teeth knocked out by nationalists? No. I will try my best to avoid confrontation of the physical type on my end- but if a thug or two rushes me, I'd appreciate help. I don't expect ANYONE to actually help if it becomes physical- but I would appreciate it to an extreme degree if it comes to that. I'm not asking people to bust skulls, or try and knock their teeth out, but if they do become physical, at least pull them off me.
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.
Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 07:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.
Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.
Yeah they always would have advocated self righteous angry
displays of temper tantrums as effective means of change.
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 07:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.
Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.
Yeah they always would have advocated self righteous angry
displays of temper tantrums as effective means of change.
Don't try and preach morals to me- I'm not the one who advocates softening the blow when dealing with the feelings of people who are otherwise complacent and complicit with a system that claims a "right" to plunder and murder at whim. And again, I ask- if not burning a flag would bring freedom faster, why isn't it here already? Have you ever burnt a flag? I'm guessing not, but it can only make me wonder- are you any freer? What about the vast majority that haven't burnt flags? Are they freer?
If you can think of a good reason for me to not burn a flag without appealing to emotion, I'll consider your point.
I haven't tried walking around with a haddock on my head... maybe if I do we'll be free!
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 07:54 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 07:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.
Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.
Yeah they always would have advocated self righteous angry
displays of temper tantrums as effective means of change.
Don't try and preach morals to me- I'm not the one who advocates softening the blow when dealing with the feelings of people who are otherwise complacent and complicit with a system that claims a "right" to plunder and murder at whim. And again, I ask- if not burning a flag would bring freedom faster, why isn't it here already? Have you ever burnt a flag? I'm guessing not, but it can only make me wonder- are you any freer? What about the vast majority that haven't burnt flags? Are they freer?
If you can think of a good reason for me to not burn a flag without appealing to emotion, I'll consider your point.
I personally don't give a Fuck if you burn
10 flags and your underwear, but I sure am
going to tell you it won't make you or any
body else freer, it will be all about emotion
yours and the people who see it. It will harden
people against hearing your message, at best.
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 08:07 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 07:54 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 07:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.
Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.
Yeah they always would have advocated self righteous angry
displays of temper tantrums as effective means of change.
Don't try and preach morals to me- I'm not the one who advocates softening the blow when dealing with the feelings of people who are otherwise complacent and complicit with a system that claims a "right" to plunder and murder at whim. And again, I ask- if not burning a flag would bring freedom faster, why isn't it here already? Have you ever burnt a flag? I'm guessing not, but it can only make me wonder- are you any freer? What about the vast majority that haven't burnt flags? Are they freer?
If you can think of a good reason for me to not burn a flag without appealing to emotion, I'll consider your point.
I personally don't give a Fuck if you burn
10 flags and your underwear,
This conversation need go no further in that case. If it's just an exercise in getting your rocks off by telling me I'm acting immature while at the same saying you "don't give a Fuck", this discussion is an absolute waste of time.
Out of curiosity, is the larger part of the opposition to me burning the UN flag the issue here? The US flag? NH flag?
O-K then have fun.
Speaking of Gandhi, he did some burnings in his time, though they were of items with more literal value than a flag.
While I don't recall hearing he ever came out in opposition to the concept of a state, his ideals were basically voluntaryism, that no person can ever know they are so right as to justify the initiation of force.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 08:18 PM NHFT
Out of curiosity, is the larger part of the opposition to me burning the UN flag the issue here? The US flag? NH flag?
We've burnt UN flags quite frequently, so... I don't think anyone was up in arms about that. I'm curious to hear what the difference is that's causing this to be controversial.
Quote from: Giggan on October 05, 2008, 08:29 PM NHFT
Speaking of Gandhi, he did some burnings in his time, though they were of items with more literal value than a flag.
While I don't recall hearing he ever came out in opposition to the concept of a state, his ideals were basically voluntaryism, that no person can ever know they are so right as to justify the initiation of force.
Gandhi advocated the institutionalization of the caste system as part of the daily governance of people's lives. He was by no means a voluntaryist.
Quote from: dalebert on October 05, 2008, 08:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 08:18 PM NHFT
Out of curiosity, is the larger part of the opposition to me burning the UN flag the issue here? The US flag? NH flag?
We've burnt UN flags quite frequently, so... I don't think anyone was up in arms about that. I'm curious to hear what the difference is that's causing this to be controversial.
Which was precisely what I was getting at. If only a specific flag is bad to burn, why are you cherry-picking. If all flags are bad to burn, aren't you being hypocrites in your advocacy against these things?
Maybe you could win over some of the naysayers around here if, before burning the flags, you wrapped them around some politicians . . . !
Quote from: Sam A. Robrin on October 05, 2008, 08:40 PM NHFT
Maybe you could win over some of the naysayers around here if, before burning the flags, you wrapped them around some politicians . . . !
Not a bad idea!
Maybe even a few politicos while I'm at it....
I keed I keed
Quote from: dalebert on October 05, 2008, 08:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 08:18 PM NHFT
Out of curiosity, is the larger part of the opposition to me burning the UN flag the issue here? The US flag? NH flag?
We've burnt UN flags quite frequently, so... I don't think anyone was up in arms about that. I'm curious to hear what the difference is that's causing this to be controversial.
Most Americans don't worship the UN flag, I'm guessing. All the more reason to burn the US flag, though, in my opinion.
While Gandhi didn't do things that were socially provocative (largely because he was fighting a foreign invasion of his homeland, such that the people were already naturally inclined to be on his side) Martin Luther King Jr absolutely did provocative things.
Don't mistake nonviolence for standing around doing nothing. Jesus was a highly controversial person because he took on the religious and political establishment of his day at precisely the most crucial points. People always feel nervous when the fundamental assumptions behind their entire way of life are being challenged. In our day, there is no single idea that is more important for us to challenge than the idea of nationalism, because it enables the idea of the state. You can't strike the root by going around this issue, with all due deference to my friend Pat. Nationalism MUST be addressed.
Quote from: Friday on October 05, 2008, 09:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: dalebert on October 04, 2008, 04:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: Jared on October 04, 2008, 02:01 PM NHFT
unfortunately, filtered through nationalist ears, this will translate "i'll stop being a terrorist when you stop loving your pathetic country, infidel!"
So suggest to me a tactful way to tell a nationalist that nationalism is evil and at the root of problem?
You do this all the time, Dale, with your comic.
Are you suggesting that Dale's comic strips are tactful? ;D
Quote from: Caleb on October 05, 2008, 09:07 PM NHFT
Quote from: dalebert on October 05, 2008, 08:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 08:18 PM NHFT
Out of curiosity, is the larger part of the opposition to me burning the UN flag the issue here? The US flag? NH flag?
We've burnt UN flags quite frequently, so... I don't think anyone was up in arms about that. I'm curious to hear what the difference is that's causing this to be controversial.
Most Americans don't worship the UN flag, I'm guessing. All the more reason to burn the US flag, though, in my opinion.
While Gandhi didn't do things that were socially provocative (largely because he was fighting a foreign invasion of his homeland, such that the people were already naturally inclined to be on his side) Martin Luther King Jr absolutely did provocative things.
Don't mistake nonviolence for standing around doing nothing. Jesus was a highly controversial person because he took on the religious and political establishment of his day at precisely the most crucial points. People always feel nervous when the fundamental assumptions behind their entire way of life are being challenged. In our day, there is no single idea that is more important for us to challenge than the idea of nationalism, because it enables the idea of the state. You can't strike the root by going around this issue, with all due deference to my friend Pat. Nationalism MUST be addressed.
So, how many US flags you gonna burn today, Caleb?
Jesse, Caleb has been talking about this for years now. As far as I know he has never done it. Before he split NH his friends talked him out of it. I have not heard about him doing it in CA.
Our group here, pretty much, burn UN flags on a whim.
You go ahead and burn a US flag Jesse, but, don't expect anyone to save you from a likely assault.
Quote from: William on October 05, 2008, 11:13 PM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on October 05, 2008, 09:03 AM NHFT
You do this all the time, Dale, with your comic.
Are you suggesting that Dale's comic strips are tactful? ;D
I TOTALLY forgot to respond to that. hehe. I was thinking the same thing. My comics are tactful? Damn, I'm doing something wrong then. ;D
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 06, 2008, 05:54 AM NHFT
You go ahead and burn a US flag Jesse, but, don't expect anyone to save you from a likely assault.
I was thinking about this Jesse, and he really does have a point. You mentioned something about just pulling people off of you, but it doesn't work that way. If it really does come to that, I don't even think you should fight back. I think you should get into a defensive position and let us film it. That would make the message that much more powerful. If that makes you go "WTF?!" then I really don't think you are ready to do this. If it erupts into a brawl, then I think it really will be counter-productive at that point. I won't contribute to that.
This is not me being a pacifist. This is just the simple reality of what it takes to send a message to the heavily indoctrinated. It has to be made very clear who the aggressors are and that free speech is not aggression. I support you in this, but if you start encouraging people to physically come to your defense, I'm going to have to withdraw my moral support and side with those saying this is going to be counter-productive.
Honestly, I don't think it will get that far. I think the police are going to be near by and that they're going to come up with a flimsy excuse to arrest you, which we will also film from many different angles. Still, I think you do need to give some deep thought to this and be very sure about it.
I haven't participated in this discussion, but I'll throw my opinion out there (to be lambasted?): I agree with Dale. If the goal is to open some eyes and make some of the indoctrinated people think, then you don't want to burn the flag and hurl insults and punches, even in defense (because your actions and words will be taken out of context). You want to be the person saying calmly, logically (via the metaphor of burning the flag) "the US government is not moral or just, it is aggressive" and you want those who support the government to prove it by showing their aggression.
I don't want you to get beat up or arrested, but if either is your goal, then you shouldn't proceed with the objective of fighting that goal.
Quote from: dalebert on October 06, 2008, 08:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 06, 2008, 05:54 AM NHFT
You go ahead and burn a US flag Jesse, but, don't expect anyone to save you from a likely assault.
I was thinking about this Jesse, and he really does have a point. You mentioned something about just pulling people off of you, but it doesn't work that way. If it really does come to that, I don't even think you should fight back. I think you should get into a defensive position and let us film it. That would make the message that much more powerful. If that makes you go "WTF?!" then I really don't think you are ready to do this. If it erupts into a brawl, then I think it really will be counter-productive at that point. I won't contribute to that.
This is not me being a pacifist. This is just the simple reality of what it takes to send a message to the heavily indoctrinated. It has to be made very clear who the aggressors are and that free speech is not aggression. I support you in this, but if you start encouraging people to physically come to your defense, I'm going to have to withdraw my moral support and side with those saying this is going to be counter-productive.
Honestly, I don't think it will get that far. I think the police are going to be near by and that they're going to come up with a flimsy excuse to arrest you, which we will also film from many different angles. Still, I think you do need to give some deep thought to this and be very sure about it.
I said I'd appreciate the help, not that I expect it. If you don't help- fine. If you do- thanks. That's all I was saying. I'm not encouraging people to jump in when or if they get the chance to. The only thing I'm looking for in regards to the defense of my physical well-being is that I am asking that some people show up, because number makes a great deterrent for any would-be assaulter.
But you're probably right in that it won't even get that far- that, and the weather and time of day there probably won't be many people walking around to begin with, but mostly in vehicles.
Edit- Also, I'm sorry, but I'll fight back if I get attacked. I'd be a moral hypocrite to not defend my property (myself); that, and I don't have the money to afford a trip to the hospital.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 06, 2008, 05:54 AM NHFT
Our group here, pretty much, burn UN flags on a whim.
So how is the US flag or the NH flag any different?
Quote from: dalebert on October 06, 2008, 08:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 06, 2008, 05:54 AM NHFT
You go ahead and burn a US flag Jesse, but, don't expect anyone to save you from a likely assault.
I was thinking about this Jesse, and he really does have a point. You mentioned something about just pulling people off of you, but it doesn't work that way. If it really does come to that, I don't even think you should fight back. I think you should get into a defensive position and let us film it. That would make the message that much more powerful. If that makes you go "WTF?!" then I really don't think you are ready to do this. If it erupts into a brawl, then I think it really will be counter-productive at that point. I won't contribute to that.
This is not me being a pacifist. This is just the simple reality of what it takes to send a message to the heavily indoctrinated. It has to be made very clear who the aggressors are and that free speech is not aggression. I support you in this, but if you start encouraging people to physically come to your defense, I'm going to have to withdraw my moral support and side with those saying this is going to be counter-productive.
Honestly, I don't think it will get that far. I think the police are going to be near by and that they're going to come up with a flimsy excuse to arrest you, which we will also film from many different angles. Still, I think you do need to give some deep thought to this and be very sure about it.
If assaulted, you could pull a Tyler Durden on him. "You don't know where I've been Lou!".
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 06, 2008, 05:54 AM NHFT
So, how many US flags you gonna burn today, Caleb?
Jesse, Caleb has been talking about this for years now. As far as I know he has never done it. Before he split NH his friends talked him out of it. I have not heard about him doing it in CA.
Jesse -
Lloyd is absolutely right about me on this one. I first began speaking about burning the US flag several months after I arrived in NH. Lloyd says that my friends "talked" me out of it. A better description would be that I was bullied out of it. My experience was much the same as yours: Nasty, venomous comments, both on the forum and privately, designed to intimidate me, accuse me, malign my character, etc. It was easily the most discouraging moment of my time spent in NH. Yep. I didn't go through with it then. I wish I would have.
About a year later, I sent a press release out (as well as an email to the office of the President) informing him that if he invaded Iran, I would burn a US flag every week until that war was over. Criticism at that time was more muted, I think largely because no one thought that the flag burning was imminent. Still, people wanted assurances that I would not burn the flag if Iran had attacked us first. I found that humorous. Obviously we would know if Iran attacked us first. We would know because the highly trustworthy Bush administration would tell us that was what had happened. <cough>gulf of tonkin, Saddam collaborating with Al Qaeda<cough> I have not had occasion to burn the flag for that reason, and to be honest I'm glad. For a time there, I thought that it was nearly certain that there would be a war in Iran.
With the upcoming departure of Bush, I have been thinking of a way to greet the incoming emperor. Your idea has inspired me. I believe that there is the potential to start a national movement here. Obviously no guarantees. But if there were a national wave of flag burnings ... well, I think that would be very powerful. I obviously think that your safety is in jeopardy, as will be anyone who does it. I agree that you should not fight back, but that is your choice. It is also your choice as to whether you will go through with it or not, recognizing that your safety is at risk. No one can tell you to take that risk. But no one should criticize you if you do. I, for one, will salute you. :)
By the way, by my recollection there were four people who stood up to the venom that was directed against me when I first began speaking about burning a US flag. Lloyd Danforth, you were one of those people. For that I am, and always will be, grateful.
I really don't think there will be a truly violent reaction. Shouts and curses? Certainly. But until someone here suggested it, I didn't really expect it, and now it seems to me it's more part of the bluster meant to intimidate and discourage you. I won't get involved if there is, just so you know, though I'll film it to keep the story straight, and as Caleb said, you should go into this knowing it's a possibility.
I remember when David was going to refuse to pay his ticket. He explained the situation to his boss knowing very well that he might have to go to jail for a time and being prepared for that potentiality. He doesn't exactly have a ton of savings to fall back on and he didn't feel he could afford to risk his livelihood on an act of civil disobedience so he did everything he could to prepare for what seemed the worse case scenario. He got assurance from his boss that he wouldn't lose his job if he got arrested. I think it's a good act to follow. Just be prepared.
Quote from: Caleb on October 06, 2008, 11:29 AM NHFT
By the way, by my recollection there were four people who stood up to the venom that was directed against me when I first began speaking about burning a US flag. Lloyd Danforth, you were one of those people. For that I am, and always will be, grateful.
For what it's worth, I'm speaking up for you retroactively. :)
The presence of video cameras should also deter all but the dumbest of men from getting violent.
I am also with Dale and am not interested in a brawl. I think we should all intend this event goes smoothly. A number of us + cameras should keep things safe.
personally, i still think it is likely that physical assault could take place. my wife disagrees with me. but i have to be honest, i really do think that it would be more effective of you to just lie down and take it if it comes to that. on the other hand, i don't want to ask you to do that, because (other then the fact that it's really none of my damn business either way) i really don't want you getting hurt.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 06, 2008, 09:26 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 06, 2008, 05:54 AM NHFT
Our group here, pretty much, burn UN flags on a whim.
So how is the US flag or the NH flag any different?
I said 'UN'. I'm sure a lot of eyebrows were raised when we had our (official) annual UN Flag burns in a public park, but, burning a UN flag just doesn't raise hackles on rednecks and professional veterans like burning a US flag.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 06, 2008, 06:57 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 06, 2008, 09:26 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 06, 2008, 05:54 AM NHFT
Our group here, pretty much, burn UN flags on a whim.
So how is the US flag or the NH flag any different?
I said 'UN'. I'm sure a lot of eyebrows were raised when we had our (official) annual UN Flag burns in a public park, but, burning a UN flag just doesn't raise hackles on rednecks and professional veterans like burning a US flag.
I know what you said. My question was why should burning the extra two flags make all the difference? If it's just because some yokels and former murderers might get uppity about it, fuck 'em.
Here is a draft press release- input would be appreciated
QuoteWho: C. "Jesse" Moloney, 21, of Keene, NH
What: Attempted burning of the United Nations, United States, and State of New Hampshire flags.
Where: Keene Central Square, Keene, New Hampshire
When: Monday, November 3rd, 2008, 2:00 P.M. (1400)
How: I will be using three cloth flags soaked in a mild accelerant to make sure a satisfactory burn (and not melt as is often the case with poly-cotton flags) occurs. Flyers will also be distributed explaining my motives so that the general public may make themselves aware should they inquire.
Why: There are several reasons and objectives-
1.) The day following the burning is Election Day, a day which is regarded by myself and others to be a moral injustice, in that voting essentially functions as an imposition of will by one group of people upon another. Because I reject this system and find it to be morally abhorrent, I view my burning to be in some senses an "Anti-Vote", a representation of my dissatisfaction with the method in which things work in lieu of the fact that I am not given the option to opt out of the system.
2.) I view these flags to symbolize glorified oppression, institutionalized theft, and the degradation of liberty and all bodies what would be complicit with these concepts- simply put, government. Given that my life philosophy is dedicated to the advancement of liberty, it only seems right for me to desecrate these symbols as means of expressing these views beyond that of an oral or written presentation.
3.) While admittedly provocative towards those that hold sympathies to what I oppose, I feel that those more inclined to investigate why I am burning the flag will be those that are apt to engage in dialogue with. It is my hope that that this act –while inflammatory to some- will spark interest in the message I am choosing to deliver.
4.) Following from the above reason/objective, many will likely feel I am "disrespecting" their views and their opinions by desecrating these flags- however, the same argument could apply just as equally to them; by flying a flag, by holding a parade, by engaging in what is tantamount to worship of the State and it's actions, they are effectively disrespecting me and my opinions. While I feel this is somewhat accurate to the degree that I find their State worship abhorrent, I do not feel that the act of flying a flag is an actual act of disrespect or intended as such towards me personally and is instead an act done out of unintentional ignorance.
5.) My intentions are totally peaceful. I simply wish to express my views in the matter I deem most likely to get the attention of those that normally don't pay attention. With that said, consider for a moment how much money, time, and manpower go into supporting the State and promoting elections themselves. My act will pale in comparison to these efforts.
6.) Lastly, it has occurred to me that my acts may violate some City or State statutes. In addressing these issues I would like to remind the officers and government officials who may try to interfere with my burning by citing one of these statutes of the established precedent in which I can burn a flag as it is a form of protected speech, and that the burning will also take place on public property- which I as a tax payer am entitled to use. Any attempt to press the issue of me violating these statutes would be no more then a cheap attempt at circumventing my property rights and the Constitution (both Federal and State) which you are all obligated to uphold by the nature of your oath's. This said, you can either choose to ignore me and let me go home, and likely hear nothing of this again- or you can cite and maybe even arrest me, which will only result in a backlash from those that love liberty. This last statement is not a threat, nor should it be taken as one- but you'll only magnify the issue by acting in such a way (with this said, to keep the local bureaucrats somewhat placated, I will have four buckets of water and a fire extinguisher on premise at the time of the burnings to make sure that they do not become unruly and pose a hazard beyond their general area of burn).
Good choice on having fire suppression devices present. Why 11/3 instead of 11/4?
We'll be protesting democracy at a busy voting area on election day. I'll try to have some "Your Vote Counts" t-shirts by then.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 07, 2008, 09:36 PM NHFT
Good choice on having fire suppression devices present. Why 11/3 instead of 11/4?
11/3 will give them time to think on the message I'm giving them, and will hopefully inspire them to instead reject voting- that, and I don't want to have my burn coincide with the already planned election protest.
Is there a thread about this election protest? First I've heard of it.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 07, 2008, 09:50 PM NHFT
Is there a thread about this election protest? First I've heard of it.
I've only heard about it in spoken word.... Ask Dale.
Just thought that it might be prudent to state that I do not support any other nations, and that my flag burning is not an act of solidarity with other nations.
Yes, no?
Well worded press release, Jesse. It doesn't seem possible that anyone can refute your peaceful intention to express your viewpoint in a manner to draw attention to an important issue. Thugs of all ilks may try to harass or shout at or beat or arrest you, not having read your press release; but I don't see how they could justify their actions once it is pointed out to them that you stated this in advance.
By the way, "unknowing ignorance" is redundant.
Quote from: Mike Barskey on October 07, 2008, 10:22 PM NHFT
By the way, "unknowing ignorance" is redundant.
Well, I was looking to use that as a sort of contrast to "willful ignorance". If you can suggest a better wording, I'd appreciate it.
I'd just use "ignorance" there, but maybe you could use "unintentional ignorance."
Quote from: Mike Barskey on October 07, 2008, 10:28 PM NHFT
I'd just use "ignorance" there, but maybe you could use "unintentional ignorance."
And... done.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 05, 2008, 08:41 AM NHFT
Quote from: Caleb on October 04, 2008, 11:10 PM NHFT
I agree that there needs to be written material to go along with it, so people understand what you are saying. I am thinking a weekly flag burning (beginning on election day) until such time as the US is not engaging in any provocative activities around the world.
Weekly could get pretty expensive. Monthly or quarterly would be plenty often to get people to be aware that it's done consistently.
If Caleb does it ... it will be his own money. But I am betting he won't do it weekly.
Quote from: Giggan on October 05, 2008, 04:41 PM NHFT
Somebody may want to have a taser in the crew.
I cannot think of anything worse than having guns and tasers at this event .... except maybe using them.
I don't plan on stopping anyone ... and this is Jesse's event and idea .... but I don't recommend anything, but very peaceful protest. I agree with Jim ... the burning is very powerful. If you have a ceremony, you can let your words be heard instead of shouting and brandishing arms.
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:18 PM NHFT
Yeah there was nothing better according to folks
like Gandhi and Martin Luther King than a good
old flag burning to get your point across.
Gandhi burned clothes. He also pushed up against government so much they killed people in retaliation. It is not always pretty.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 07:25 PM NHFT
Gandhi and MLK Jr. weren't opposed to the State- I'm sure if they were, they would have done the same.
I think they were getting there at the end ... hence they must be killed.
If you peacefully resist the State Jesse ... you will be the biggest threat to them ... and you will be dealt with.
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 07:30 PM NHFT
Yeah they always would have advocated self righteous angry
displays of temper tantrums as effective means of change.
I agree PatK ... if this event is fueled by that ... it will come out ... and will not be as helpful.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on October 05, 2008, 08:05 PM NHFT
I haven't tried walking around with a haddock on my head... maybe if I do we'll be free!
man .... why haven't we thought of that before? ;)
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 05, 2008, 08:18 PM NHFT
Out of curiosity, is the larger part of the opposition to me burning the UN flag the issue here? The US flag? NH flag?
of course it is the US flag .... and why? .... because it is the most likely one to get you in trouble with the thugs. People are scared and they don't want you to drag them into trouble. Hopefully some will support you, some will only distance themselves from you, and I hope none try to physically stop you.
Quote from: Pat K on October 05, 2008, 08:07 PM NHFT
I personally don't give a Fuck if you burn
10 flags and your underwear
well ... obviously you do :icon_pirat:
Quote from: dalebert on October 05, 2008, 08:34 PM NHFT
We've burnt UN flags quite frequently, so... I don't think anyone was up in arms about that. I'm curious to hear what the difference is that's causing this to be controversial.
the UN didn't do anything about it.
Dada choose the UN flag because it would ruffle less feathers.
It got our activism kicked off the FSP forum and onto our own, so it bothered the more politically correct.
Quote from: dalebert on October 06, 2008, 08:44 AM NHFT
Quote from: William on October 05, 2008, 11:13 PM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on October 05, 2008, 09:03 AM NHFT
You do this all the time, Dale, with your comic.
Are you suggesting that Dale's comic strips are tactful? ;D
I TOTALLY forgot to respond to that. hehe. I was thinking the same thing. My comics are tactful? Damn, I'm doing something wrong then. ;D
don't worry ... many of us know some of your comics are tacky
I think the effect created by burning the US flag depends on where the person's doing it heart is at...
My sense of Jesse's is a "fuck 'em" this will piss people off, kind of an adolescent reactionary thing.
I think Facilitator's ceremony of shame, and Russell's peaceful not hating your opposition is the key to any chance of achieving the right tone.
I agree. I once proposed an 'educational' US flag burning where you have some older designs prior to (?) when the US went to Hell, that you don't burn while burning contemporary flags, and, you let the folks know about the differences between what the founding fathers intended and the results.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on October 08, 2008, 07:51 AM NHFT
I think the effect created by burning the US flag depends on where the person's doing it heart is at...
My sense of Jesse's is a "fuck 'em" this will piss people off, kind of an adolescent reactionary thing.
I think Facilitator's ceremony of shame, and Russell's peaceful not hating your opposition is the key to any chance of achieving the right tone.
I'm pretty sure that my press release adequately covers it enough to dispel any notion of this being reactionary or adolescent in nature. This is my anti-vote. This is my response to all the flag flying and parade marching. This is me expressing my opinion- if I can't have that, then what are we fighting for?
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 08, 2008, 09:12 AM NHFT
This is me expressing my opinion- if I can't have that, then what are we fighting for?
You are free to do it. :)
I think that your effort is evolving and that is good.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 07, 2008, 09:26 PM NHFT
How: I will be using three cloth flags soaked in a mild accelerant to make sure a satisfactory burn (and not melt as is often the case with poly-cotton flags) occurs. Flyers will also be distributed explaining my motives so that the general public may make themselves aware should they inquire.
Too much information. The press doesn't need to know the material your flag will be made of, nor what you will use to make it burn. They also don't need to know about other things you are doing to educate on this. The more information you have, the less any part of it stands out.
QuoteWhy: There are several reasons and objectives-
1.) The day following the burning is Election Day, a day which is regarded by myself and others to be a moral injustice, in that voting essentially functions as an imposition of will by one group of people upon another. Because I reject this system and find it to be morally abhorrent, I view my burning to be in some senses an "Anti-Vote", a representation of my dissatisfaction with the method in which things work in lieu of the fact that I am not given the option to opt out of the system.
2.) I view these flags to symbolize glorified oppression, institutionalized theft, and the degradation of liberty and all bodies what would be complicit with these concepts- simply put, government. Given that my life philosophy is dedicated to the advancement of liberty, it only seems right for me to desecrate these symbols as means of expressing these views beyond that of an oral or written presentation.
These two are good reasons. I would make these the focus of your press release, and make them a little more concise.
Quote3.) While admittedly provocative towards those that hold sympathies to what I oppose, I feel that those more inclined to investigate why I am burning the flag will be those that are apt to engage in dialogue with. It is my hope that that this act –while inflammatory to some- will spark interest in the message I am choosing to deliver.
4.) Following from the above reason/objective, many will likely feel I am "disrespecting" their views and their opinions by desecrating these flags- however, the same argument could apply just as equally to them; by flying a flag, by holding a parade, by engaging in what is tantamount to worship of the State and it's actions, they are effectively disrespecting me and my opinions. While I feel this is somewhat accurate to the degree that I find their State worship abhorrent, I do not feel that the act of flying a flag is an actual act of disrespect or intended as such towards me personally and is instead an act done out of unintentional ignorance.
These should be omitted, mainly because the press release is not the place to reflect on possible reactions to your to your demonstration, nor to rebut people's emotions. All this does is clutter it and draw attention away from your reasons for the demonstration.
Quote5.) My intentions are totally peaceful. I simply wish to express my views in the matter I deem most likely to get the attention of those that normally don't pay attention. With that said, consider for a moment how much money, time, and manpower go into supporting the State and promoting elections themselves. My act will pale in comparison to these efforts.
Nor is the press release a place to vindicate your intentions.
Quote6.) Lastly, it has occurred to me that my acts may violate some City or State statutes. In addressing these issues I would like to remind the officers and government officials who may try to interfere with my burning by citing one of these statutes of the established precedent in which I can burn a flag as it is a form of protected speech, and that the burning will also take place on public property- which I as a tax payer am entitled to use. Any attempt to press the issue of me violating these statutes would be no more then a cheap attempt at circumventing my property rights and the Constitution (both Federal and State) which you are all obligated to uphold by the nature of your oath's. This said, you can either choose to ignore me and let me go home, and likely hear nothing of this again- or you can cite and maybe even arrest me, which will only result in a backlash from those that love liberty. This last statement is not a threat, nor should it be taken as one- but you'll only magnify the issue by acting in such a way (with this said, to keep the local bureaucrats somewhat placated, I will have four buckets of water and a fire extinguisher on premise at the time of the burnings to make sure that they do not become unruly and pose a hazard beyond their general area of burn).
Nor is the press release a place to tell people what options they have or to cite legal precedent for what you are doing. If you have questions about the possible police response, I would take that up with the Keene police separately. The Keene police are quite aware that this issue has been decided by the Supreme Court as protected speech. I doubt you will have trouble.
Like I told you earlier, I don't feel qualified to write a press release, but Caleb's points make sense to me.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 08, 2008, 09:12 AM NHFT
This is my anti-vote.
One might say it's your
flag-poll . . . !
Ok, I am putting my press release out there for critiques too ...
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Christian Activist Plans Day of Compassion to Coincide with Election Day
Riverside, California - November 4, 2008 - Saddened by the militarism that has gripped this nation, especially since 2001, peace activist Caleb Johnson plans a controversial display designed to call attention to the role that nationalism plays in human suffering around the world. At 6:00 pm at the entrance to White Park in downtown Riverside, he will burn a US flag to protest the national elections, with the goal of drawing attention to the violence that he believes inevitably results from government.
Over 650,000 Iraqi citizens have lost their lives since the US invasion began. But for Johnson, the invasion is a symptom of a larger problem: the spirit of nationalism which causes people to believe that an American life is of greater value than an Iraqi life.
"No one asks how many Iraqis have died," he says. "I had to do an extensive Google search just to find a two year old study on the question. But we know how many Americans have died to the number.
"When the two major candidates speak about Iraq, all they talk about is strategy. `Invading Iraq was a mistake because we didn't plan well enough,' or `we should have been bombing innocent Afghan people instead.' No one asks whether it is moral to drop explosive devices on unarmed people because of something that one of their supposed leaders did. I sure don't want people to bomb me for something George Bush does. But the morality of the whole thing is the one thing missing from the debate. None of the politicians seem to care."
The event is timed to coincide with election day. Johnson believes that election day, with its accompanying nationalistic fervor is a microcosm of American imperialism. Moreover, he believes that voting plays into the hands of imperialism by legitimizing a system that is rigged in the favor of those who want to use violence.
"Nonviolent people don't want to impose their will on others. All an election does is give a forum for those who want to kill in my name.
"I sympathize with anyone who wants to be angry at me for doing this," Johnson says. "But I can't help but wonder whether those who will be angry at me for burning a piece of cotton managed the same amount of anger over the slaughter of innocent human beings in two wars since 2001."
CONTACT:
Caleb Johnson
(951) 801-1398
kinghippy@calebjohnson.org
www.calebjohnson.org
###
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 07, 2008, 09:43 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 07, 2008, 09:36 PM NHFT
Good choice on having fire suppression devices present. Why 11/3 instead of 11/4?
11/3 will give them time to think on the message I'm giving them, and will hopefully inspire them to instead reject voting- that, and I don't want to have my burn coincide with the already planned election protest.
You should probably change the name of the thread then.
Quote from: Caleb on October 08, 2008, 08:44 PM NHFT
Ok, I am putting my press release out there for critiques too ...
with the goal of drawing attention to the violence that he believes inevitably results from the state.
Most mainstream people think of the state as refering to a state.
Oh yeah, the KingHippy... ;D 8)
good point.
that's actually a very old nickname...I had a friend growing up, Dominic, who used to use the word "King" ironically, to mock. "Look at that guy over there, he kingly", "that's a king necktie you have there" (said about a gaudy tie,) etc. When one day I told him that I thought I was kind of a hippy, he said, "Yeah, you're a king hippy." 8)
QuoteWho: C. "Jesse" Moloney, 21, of Keene, NH
What: Attempted burning of the United Nations, United States, and State of New Hampshire flags.
Where: Keene Central Square, Keene, New Hampshire
When: Monday, November 3rd, 2008, 2:00 P.M. (1400)
How: I will be burning three flags representing the aforementioned entities.
Why:
1.) The day following the burning is Election Day, a day which is regarded by myself and others to be a moral injustice, in that voting essentially functions as an imposition of will by one group of people upon another. Because I reject this system and find it to be morally abhorrent, I view my burning to be in some senses an "Anti-Vote", a representation of my dissatisfaction with the method in which things work in lieu of the fact that I am not given the option to opt out of the system.
2.) I view these flags to symbolize glorified oppression, institutionalized theft, and the degradation of liberty and all bodies what would be complicit with these concepts- simply put, government. Given that my life philosophy is dedicated to the advancement of liberty, it only seems right for me to desecrate these symbols as means of expressing these views beyond that of an oral or written presentation.
Maybe my college days are inhibiting me, but I cannot see how these can be anymore concise or succinct, without deviating from my point.
QuoteQuote
3.) While admittedly provocative towards those that hold sympathies to what I oppose, I feel that those more inclined to investigate why I am burning the flag will be those that are apt to engage in dialogue with. It is my hope that that this act –while inflammatory to some- will spark interest in the message I am choosing to deliver.
4.) Following from the above reason/objective, many will likely feel I am "disrespecting" their views and their opinions by desecrating these flags- however, the same argument could apply just as equally to them; by flying a flag, by holding a parade, by engaging in what is tantamount to worship of the State and it's actions, they are effectively disrespecting me and my opinions. While I feel this is somewhat accurate to the degree that I find their State worship abhorrent, I do not feel that the act of flying a flag is an actual act of disrespect or intended as such towards me personally and is instead an act done out of unintentional ignorance.
These should be omitted, mainly because the press release is not the place to reflect on possible reactions to your to your demonstration, nor to rebut people's emotions. All this does is clutter it and draw attention away from your reasons for the demonstration.
Maybe I'm missing the point of a press release, but it seems that a response to something we're pretty positive is going to occur (fuck, it'd be totally unrealistic to assume that people WON'T react) would be necessary to include. That, and these are as much part of my reasons for burning as the first two- to inspire dialog, to as a response to all the flag waving and rah-rahing the State gets. These are no different then your "I understand if someone is angry at me" line in your own release.
Also, I'd seen that press release format, and frankly- I think it's horseshit. I'm not going to write what is tantamount to a short article from my perspective in a third person manner. To me, it's plain dishonest Not saying anything about you in particular, Caleb, just saying that I don't prefer the method. I was mostly borrowing from Dave Ridley when I wrote mine, and it seems a bit more "objective" AND honest given that I'm not trying to present it from a third person view.
Caleb's press release seems like a good model to follow. It seems the idea is to do as much work as possible for them making it easier for them to report on. Caleb writes it as if he's a reporter himself so they could just drop it right into an article, perhaps just tweaking it a bit if they want. So I'd say write it from that perspective as if you're reporting on the event and have interviewed yourself for comments.
UPDATE: I posted this at the same time you were writing that last post, just FYI.
http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=1239.0
Seems my actions here have caught the attention of the politicos.
Mark my words, those of you who read this thread from that end of the spectrum, the 'attention" I seek will likely see me assaulted, and possibly even arrested- to say the least, I'm terrified of this happening. The "attention" I seek is not based on some adolescent cry for attention, it's based on my disgust and opposition which I have laid out and had discussed in person before. While some people have offered critiques and support, it'd be totally unfair to me to say that I only developed a sound reason for doing what I plan on doing after talking with them.
Bring them this message J'raxis, if you will be so kind, as I have no desire to associate with their ilk-
"You're ruining it for the rest of us by getting in the public eye and making fools of yourself running for offices premised and upheld by coercion. Please do us a favor and shut up. You sound like a bunch of Marxists with your claims of 'withering' the State away if we only elect an enlightened elite into power. To paraphrase Mikhail Bakunin 'You maintain that only a dictatorship—your dictatorship, of course—can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up' ".
I think the politicos should keep complaining. Their complaining just makes the peaceful evolution to a consensual society seem more relevant to observers.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 09, 2008, 11:50 AM NHFT
I think the politicos should keep complaining. Their complaining just makes the peaceful evolution to a consensual society seem more relevant to observers.
I actually don't care if they complain or not. I'm just turning their own reasoning against them ;)
This too shall pass.
Dale
--Ambassador of the Schism
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 09, 2008, 11:54 AM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 09, 2008, 11:50 AM NHFT
I think the politicos should keep complaining. Their complaining just makes the peaceful evolution to a consensual society seem more relevant to observers.
I actually don't care if they complain or not. I'm just turning their own reasoning against them ;)
I figured. :icon_pirat:
That said, I have the American flag I'll be burning and three poles. Kat or Russell, you said you might have UN flags on hand. Could I maybe buy one off of you if this is the case?
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 09, 2008, 11:32 AM NHFT
Bring them this message J'raxis, if you will be so kind, as I have no desire to associate with their ilk-
Posted it (http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=1239.msg8710#msg8710).
A few of the market activists here have accounts over there. I've seen Dale and Ian post, at least. Having an account on the NHLA forum isn't an automatic endorsement of political activism.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 09, 2008, 01:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 09, 2008, 11:32 AM NHFT
Bring them this message J'raxis, if you will be so kind, as I have no desire to associate with their ilk-
Posted it (http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=1239.msg8710#msg8710).
A few of the market activists here have accounts over there. I've seen Dale and Ian post, at least. Having an account on the NHLA forum isn't an automatic endorsement of political activism.
I did make an account before I posted that, but I have no desire to explain to them my actions or associate over there- simply put, I think they're immoral people for trying to use a system premised on coercion; and they think I'm just an attention-seeker who is looking to harm the movement. I'd prefer to keep my distance, if only to not fan the flames between us.
.... although, I'm curious to know what the reaction will be when I show up at Taproom on Tuesday.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 09, 2008, 01:39 PM NHFT
.... although, I'm curious to know what the reaction will be when I show up at Taproom on Tuesday.
This Tuesday? You'll find a pretty even mix of political activists and market activists: Manchester is the biggest center of political activism, but people come from all around to go to Taproom Tuesday. A lot of Manchester's political activists are also of the "anarchist but using the system defensively" bent such as myself.
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 09, 2008, 01:32 PM NHFT
A few of the market activists here have accounts over there.
whenever I see "market activists" i picture pro-grocery-store-enthusiasts or pro-farmers-market :)
I'm not postive now I have a UN flag in Keene. I have a really filthy one here.
UN Flags on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/UNITED-NATIONS-FLAG-UN-FLAGS-3X5-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ330271784596QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330271784596&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
if you order now, you'd get it in time.
I'd like to attend and report on this, but I don't really want to be there if there's open carry going on. Seems like this is explosive enough w/o adding weapons to the mix. Can you let me know if you're planning on carrying?
Quote from: Kat Kanning on October 09, 2008, 03:22 PM NHFT
I'm not postive now I have a UN flag in Keene. I have a really filthy one here.
UN Flags on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/UNITED-NATIONS-FLAG-UN-FLAGS-3X5-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ330271784596QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330271784596&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
if you order now, you'd get it in time.
I'd like to attend and report on this, but I don't really want to be there if there's open carry going on. Seems like this is explosive enough w/o adding weapons to the mix. Can you let me know if you're planning on carrying?
I personally do not have a firearm, so I can't. That said, I can't control other people that show up carrying (I know some do it out of habit, and I don't feel it's my place to ask them to come without their firearms).
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 09, 2008, 01:32 PM NHFT
A few of the market activists here have accounts over there. I've seen Dale and Ian post, at least. Having an account on the NHLA forum isn't an automatic endorsement of political activism.
I have no interest in going over there to argue with them though. I would feel like a troll. I post very rarely, but when I do, it tends to be on matters where I don't expect conflict, like to post about a comic or something that they might appreciate, though I haven't even done that in a while now that updates about my comic are pretty readily available in other ways like Free State Blogs. My deep disagreements with them are not going to be resolved by me going over there and nagging them. We've had long discussions over here and they know what I think. I believe for many of them, they'll burn out and the points will sink in over time. I prefer to remain friends and to work with them in those areas where we can agree.
I'll continue to post my views in my own blog, Free Keene, and here, where it seems more appropriate and it will be available for them to read if and when they care to. I'm not going to rub their noses in it. Well... except when I get really drunk and loud. If they remain in the vicinity then, they might get an ear full. >:D
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 09, 2008, 01:39 PM NHFT
I did make an account before I posted that, but I have no desire to explain to them my actions or associate over there- simply put, I think they're immoral people for trying to use a system premised on coercion; and they think I'm just an attention-seeker who is looking to harm the movement. I'd prefer to keep my distance, if only to not fan the flames between us.
But you are an attention seeker, no?
That, in my opinion, is the greatest strength of those who have divested their souls of the poison of political chicanery: we have nothing to hide. On the contrary, we want people to understand what we are saying.
When you go down the political route, the whole madness is smoke and mirrors and self-congratulation based on *who* someone is "Oh, he's a state rep, he's a senator" blah blah blah. And you can't ever say what you really think or do what you really want to do because that isn't feasible or it won't win you support. So you constantly have to play this game of being something you're not, of giving ideas that aren't really your own, of holding to a line that sickens you, merely so you can convince someone that you are something you aren't so you can maintain the position you want to eliminate in the first place. Ugh. I am SO glad I'm off that treadmill.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 09, 2008, 09:47 AM NHFT
Also, I'd seen that press release format, and frankly- I think it's horseshit. I'm not going to write what is tantamount to a short article from my perspective in a third person manner. To me, it's plain dishonest Not saying anything about you in particular, Caleb, just saying that I don't prefer the method. I was mostly borrowing from Dave Ridley when I wrote mine, and it seems a bit more "objective" AND honest given that I'm not trying to present it from a third person view.
Dishonest? No one in the press thinks that the article is from a non-biased source. The "For Immediate Release" at the top and the " ###" at the end identify it as a press release, which always comes from an interested party.
Look, they aren't going to drop your press release in the paper as-is regardless of what format you put it in. That's not the purpose of the press release. Can you imagine being a reporter and getting a press release like that? Are you going to run the story that something is going to happen and then run the risk that the guy never shows up? Try coming at it from the perspective of the reporter:
You show up at the event with your voice recorder and a photographer. The guy has friends handing out literature to passers-by. Then he says a few words and voila, the us flag is up in smoke. Your photographer gives you a thumbs up to let you know that he has some good pictures to run a story on. That's a relief, because a good picture is your biggest hook. But a verbal hook, a story, that's what you want. How do you contextualize what just happened? You go and take a handout from the guy's friend. You look it over. You're looking for something. Something unique. Something you can make into a story.
Do you catch what I'm saying here? You write the story, you do most of the work of contextualizing it for them, so that they don't go with the wrong story and you don't get misrepresented. Getting the attention is half the battle ... the next half of the battle is communicating effectively. You don't have to put your press release in the form of a story, but you do need to have a message that sticks to one or two easily understood points. Because if you give the media a list, they will throw it out and write their own story.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 09, 2008, 03:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 09, 2008, 01:32 PM NHFT
A few of the market activists here have accounts over there.
whenever I see "market activists" i picture pro-grocery-store-enthusiasts or pro-farmers-market :)
Heh. I don't remember who, but someone started referring to the non- and anti-political activists as "[free] market activists": Just another example of naming something for what they're
for instead of what they're
against.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 08, 2008, 08:28 AM NHFT
I agree. I once proposed an 'educational' US flag burning where you have some older designs prior to (?) when the US went to Hell, that you don't burn while burning contemporary flags, and, you let the folks know about the differences between what the founding fathers intended and the results.
very cool idea ... I think you should do it with Caleb. ;)
Quote from: Caleb on October 09, 2008, 08:48 PM NHFT
When you go down the political route, the whole madness is smoke and mirrors and self-congratulation based on *who* someone is "Oh, he's a state rep, he's a senator" blah blah blah. And you can't ever say what you really think or do what you really want to do because that isn't feasible or it won't win you support. So you constantly have to play this game of being something you're not, of giving ideas that aren't really your own, of holding to a line that sickens you, merely so you can convince someone that you are something you aren't so you can maintain the position you want to eliminate in the first place. Ugh. I am SO glad I'm off that treadmill.
It's so true. When I ran, I thought it wouldn't apply to me because it was so blatantly impossible for me to win the general election, so I thought I could just use my party win as a platform for my ideas. Even in that ridiculous scenario, there was tremendous pressure on me to play the game a certain way, i.e. to put on a facade and not rock the boat. It was sickening.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 08, 2008, 08:28 AM NHFT
I agree. I once proposed an 'educational' US flag burning where you have some older designs prior to (?) when the US went to Hell, that you don't burn while burning contemporary flags, and, you let the folks know about the differences between what the founding fathers intended and the results.
I'm not a fan of most of the founding fathers' intentions. With a few exceptions, they just seemed to want to replace the crown with themselves. The downhill started the moment a state was proposed, but it was very clearly downhill starting with the Constitutional Convention.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 09, 2008, 09:31 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 08, 2008, 08:28 AM NHFT
I agree. I once proposed an 'educational' US flag burning where you have some older designs prior to (?) when the US went to Hell, that you don't burn while burning contemporary flags, and, you let the folks know about the differences between what the founding fathers intended and the results.
very cool idea ... I think you should do it with Caleb. ;)
If Lloyd comes out here and holds the version of the flag that was current on his birthday, I promise I won't burn it, and he can educate all he wants to. I'll even buy him an Old Milwaukee. ;D
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 09, 2008, 09:05 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 09, 2008, 03:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: J'raxis 270145 on October 09, 2008, 01:32 PM NHFT
A few of the market activists here have accounts over there.
whenever I see "market activists" i picture pro-grocery-store-enthusiasts or pro-farmers-market :)
Heh. I don't remember who, but someone started referring to the non- and anti-political activists as "[free] market activists": Just another example of naming something for what they're for instead of what they're against.
A lot of times, Ralph Nader is called "Consumer advocate Ralph Nader." Whenever he is described as a "consumer advocate" I always imagine him holding his arms out protectively and shouting, "Let the people shop, Goddammit!"
Quote from: Caleb on October 09, 2008, 10:13 PM NHFT
A lot of times, Ralph Nader is called "Consumer advocate Ralph Nader." Whenever he is described as a "consumer advocate" I always imagine him holding his arms out protectively and shouting, "Let the people shop, Goddammit!"
Ya? Is that why he told GM they couldn't sell a certain kind of car... so people could make their own choices?
Once upon a time I gave a very short (FIJA) speech on the the steps of the Vermont State House (pardon the capitals). As I spoke there was a dude very close by who kept - incessantly - saying/chanting, "Light it up. Light it up. Light it up. Light it up."
It was clear (to me) that he wanted two things lighted.
I think he mostly wanted Freedom.
If you wanted a different press release in the NHFP, I need it today. :)
Quote from: Russell Kanning on October 09, 2008, 09:31 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 08, 2008, 08:28 AM NHFT
I agree. I once proposed an 'educational' US flag burning where you have some older designs prior to (?) when the US went to Hell, that you don't burn while burning contemporary flags, and, you let the folks know about the differences between what the founding fathers intended and the results.
very cool idea ... I think you should do it with Caleb. ;)
This was in the context of what I thought then and now as a stupid idea. Besides, Caleb bailed.
I honestly don't know what to write, or how to write it. My draft is pretty solid I think. If anyone wants to clean it up and make it look more like Caleb's, I'd really appreciate it, and I'll throw in some reimbursement.
I altered it very slightly to make it work in the paper. :)
Quote from: Kat Kanning on October 14, 2008, 10:40 AM NHFT
I altered it very slightly to make it work in the paper. :)
Could you maybe PM it to me? I might be able to edit it so that way I can make it a general press release.
OK.
Located 2 new UN flags. They're the "I'm melting" type. You're welcome to them, just let me know.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on October 14, 2008, 03:36 PM NHFT
OK.
Located 2 new UN flags. They're the "I'm melting" type.
"Oh, what a world, what a world!"
I actually picked up a flag from e-Bay, but thank you :P
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 15, 2008, 08:35 AM NHFT
I actually picked up a flag from e-Bay, but thank you :P
I'm a little confused. Can you post your final press release if it is done?
I'll have it done in an hour or two. :\ I couldn't find anyone qualified enough to do it for me, so I'm going to have to try and wing it.
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 15, 2008, 09:47 AM NHFT
I'll have it done in an hour or two. :\ I couldn't find anyone qualified enough to do it for me, so I'm going to have to try and wing it.
You didn't hear that Ridley is da bomb at news releases?
Quote from: Coconut on October 15, 2008, 11:46 AM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 15, 2008, 09:47 AM NHFT
I'll have it done in an hour or two. :\ I couldn't find anyone qualified enough to do it for me, so I'm going to have to try and wing it.
You didn't hear that Ridley is da bomb at news releases?
I did hear this, but I am not aware if he'd be willing to help me out (he does not feel great about what I am doing, so I'd rather not put him on the spot over it).
Draft-
For Immediate Release
Contact: Cory "Jesse" Moloney
ApityPrime@gmail.com
Keene Activist to Hold Anti-Politics Demonstration in Central Square
Keene, NH, November 3, 2008 -- For some, the political atmosphere associated with the upcoming elections are an indicator of changes to come, whether for better or worse, and is something welcomed every term of years. For a select few, however, the atmosphere is not something to be welcomed, and they feel things will only stay the same, if not become worse altogether. To vocalize this dissatisfaction, one Keene activist will be burning flags representing the United States, United Nations, and the State of New Hampshire the day prior to election day in Central Square. Cory "Jesse" Moloney is an avid promoter of voluntary solutions instead of democratic solutions, which he refers to as "nothing short of institutionalized and glorified slavery". He openly advocates solving problems that face modern society with peaceful, mutual means tailored to each individual instead of what he refers to as a "one-size-fits-all" method that he insists comes with the democratic process
"Everyone else that participates in the system get's their flag waving time, their parades that march on down Main Street. They then get that golden opportunity to enable politicians to do what they do, which is often to the detriment of liberty and freedom. Millions will vote, and the outcome will be that someone's point of view will be force fed to you whether you like it or not, or whether you even participated in the voting process or not. Frankly, I find it tyrannical, and would even go so far as to say it is immoral," says Moloney. "Which is precisely why I am burning these flags- to me, these are the symbols of an unjust cause, the degradation of liberty. I suppose in a sense, you could say that I am casting my 'anti-vote'. While everyone vocalizes how much they support this system in their own fashion, I will be vocalizing my opposition."
"It's funny; some people expect to get something done or achieve a positive end in a system built on the foundations of a tyrannical majority, and the institutionalization of theft. When they eventually don't get what they asked for, or don't get what they voted for, they complain and talk of how politicians are at it again. The thing about this is, the system never worked in their favor in the first place- no one can actually represent them better then themselves, and after a good look at history, when was the last time we can all universally agree we had a great politician in office? Honestly, I think it's a show of poor sportsmanship when people participate in the system and complain when they don't get what they want."
Mr. Moloney does not vote as a matter of "moral opposition", and refuses to take part in any government programs unless it can't be avoided. "I don't like the system- I can't opt out without being forced to leave or being threatened to be thrown in jail. I am constantly held to arbitrary rules, and I as well as everyone else is beholden to the whim of a majority. I'm not even asking that they disassemble the system entirely just for me or those that feel the same as me. Which is what my anti-vote says: 'Leave us alone. We're not going to hurt you, and we don't threaten to take away your home or business if you refuse to pay a fee. We don't hold you to any decisions we as a group might make between us. So please, have the courtesy to do the same for us'. This is all we want- we won't oppose your system so long as you don't force us to participate."
-30-
--------------
Now, I'm not sure about the header. Is "Anti-Politics" good enough, or should I change it to something else?
Also, that's pretty much what I have. What should I do with it beyond this?
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 15, 2008, 01:20 PM NHFT
Draft-
For Immediate Release
Contact: Cory "Jesse" Moloney
ApityPrime@gmail.com
Keene Activist to Hold Anti-Politics Demonstration in Central Square
Keene, NH, November 3, 2008 -- For some, the political atmosphere associated with the upcoming elections are an indicator of changes to come, whether for better or worse, and is something welcomed every term of years. For a select few, however, the atmosphere is not something to be welcomed, and they feel things will only stay the same, if not become worse altogether.
-30-
--------------
Now, I'm not sure about the header. Is "Anti-Politics" good enough, or should I change it to something else?
You talk about how some see it as change, for better or worse.
Then you talk about some see it as the same or change for the worse.
Style like that is really off putting.
Also, I think you made a grammar error, didn't you mean every term for years?
About the header, should politics even be capitalized?
Also, where is the body?
Quote from: Radical and Stuff on October 15, 2008, 04:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: AnarchoJesse on October 15, 2008, 01:20 PM NHFT
Draft-
For Immediate Release
Contact: Cory "Jesse" Moloney
ApityPrime@gmail.com
Keene Activist to Hold Anti-Politics Demonstration in Central Square
Keene, NH, November 3, 2008 -- For some, the political atmosphere associated with the upcoming elections are an indicator of changes to come, whether for better or worse, and is something welcomed every term of years. For a select few, however, the atmosphere is not something to be welcomed, and they feel things will only stay the same, if not become worse altogether.
-30-
--------------
Now, I'm not sure about the header. Is "Anti-Politics" good enough, or should I change it to something else?
You talk about how some see it as change, for better or worse.
Then you talk about some see it as the same or change for the worse.
Style like that is really off putting.
Also, I think you made a grammar error, didn't you mean every term for years?
About the header, should politics even be capitalized?
Also, where is the body?
Computer problem. Had to post it before the computer crashed all the way and I lost even the beginning. But now, I've filled it all in.
So?
Any other criticisms?
Feedback, people, feedback!
The third paragraph starts out strong calling politics tyranny and theft, but ends weakly complaining of mere poor sportsmanship. I think that last sentence is a good place for a really flamboyant statement like "when I hear the voting machines ratcheting in another vote, I hear the gulag gates closing" or something of similar emotional content.
Good, but needs a quick Who, What, When, Where at the top.
Keene, NH, November 3, 2008 – The elections are coming, and they bring a welcome atmosphere of new changes. For some, however, this atmosphere is looked at, at best, with a feeling of distaste. These people see things changing for the worse. To vocalize this dissatisfaction, one Keene activist will be burning flags representing the United States, United Nations, and the State of New Hampshire the day prior to election day in Central Square. Cory "Jesse" Moloney refers to the processes of democracy as "nothing short of institutionalized and glorified slavery" where that democracy is –often violently-- forced upon each member. He openly advocates solving problems that face modern society with peaceful means tailored to each individual instead of what he refers to as a "one-size-fits-all" method that he insists comes with the democratic process
"Everyone else that participates in the system gets their flag waving time, their parades down Main Street. They then get that golden opportunity to enable politicians to do what they do. The actions of those politicians are often to the detriment of liberty and freedom. Millions will vote, and the outcome will be that someone's point of view will be force fed to you whether you like it or not, or whether you even participated in the voting process or not. Frankly, I find it tyrannical, and would even go so far as to say it is immoral," claims Moloney. "Which is precisely why I am burning these flags. To me, these are the symbols of an unjust cause, the degradation of liberty. In a sense, you could say that I am casting my 'anti-vote'. While everyone vocalizes how much they support this system in their own fashion, I will be vocalizing my opposition."
"It's funny; some people expect to get something done or achieve a positive end in a system built on the foundations of a tyrannical majority, and the institutionalization of theft. When they eventually don't get what they asked for, or don't get what they voted for, they complain and talk of how politicians are at it again. The thing about this is, the system never worked in their favor in the first place- no one can actually represent them better then themselves, and after a good look at history, when was the last time we can all universally agree we had a great politician in office? Honestly, I think it's a show of poor sportsmanship when people participate in the system and complain when they don't get what they want."
Mr. Moloney does not vote as a matter of "moral opposition", and refuses to take part in any government programs unless it can't be avoided. "I don't like the system- I can't opt out without being forced to leave or being threatened to be thrown in jail. I am constantly held to arbitrary rules, and I as well as everyone else is beholden to the whim of a majority. I'm not even asking that they disassemble the system entirely just for me or those that feel the same as me. Which is what my anti-vote says: 'Leave us alone. We're not going to hurt you, and we don't threaten to take away your home or business if you refuse to pay a fee. We don't hold you to any decisions we as a group might make between us. So please, have the courtesy to do the same for us'. This is all we want- we won't oppose your system so long as you don't force us to participate."
I think this is a bad, bad idea. Your language will convince no one but the already converted and will offend many. You say, in your last paragraph, that nothing of use has ever been done by a democratic system such as we have. You attack the *democratic process* that, in the eyes of most people, has given Americans so much. Its a mistake to call for anarchy in this fashion.
Everyone's a critic. What are YOU doing to promote liberty, Mr. Voice?
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 15, 2008, 09:49 PM NHFT
Good, but needs a quick Who, What, When, Where at the top.
Someone should edit the title of this thread, and the first post with this information, for anyone new clicking into it.
FTL, you have misunderstood me. I think the flag buning is a great idea even if I don't have the balls to do it myself. Enraged mobs scare me. What I'm saying is that the press release is a mistake. As for what I'm doing, why do you ask? Do you hold yourself in position to judge me?
Quote from: AnarchoMartyr on October 15, 2008, 01:20 PM NHFT
Draft-
For Immediate Release
Contact: Cory "Jesse" Moloney
ApityPrime@gmail.com
Keene Activist to Hold Anti-Politics Demonstration in Central Square
Keene, NH, November 3, 2008 -- For some, the political atmosphere associated with the upcoming elections are an indicator of changes to come, whether for better or worse, and is something welcomed every term of years. [This sentence doesn't make sense] For a select few, however, the atmosphere is not something to be welcomed, and they feel things will only stay the same, if not become worse altogether. To vocalize this dissatisfaction, one Keene activist will be burning flags representing the United States, United Nations, and the State of New Hampshire the day prior to election day in Central Square. Cory "Jesse" Moloney is an avid promoter of voluntary solutions instead of democratic solutions, which he refers to as "nothing short of institutionalized and glorified slavery". He openly advocates solving problems that face modern society with peaceful, mutual means tailored to each individual instead of what he refers to as a "one-size-fits-all" method that he insists comes with the democratic process[.]
"Everyone else that participates in the system get's[gets] their flag waving time, their parades that march on down[either say on or down but not both] Main Street. They then get that golden opportunity to enable politicians to do what they do, which is often to the detriment of liberty and freedom. Millions will vote, and the outcome will be that someone's point of view will be force fed to you whether you like it or not, or whether you even participated in the voting process or not[try using at all isn't of or not. Frankly, you used or too many times and it sounds bad]. Frankly, I find it tyrannical, and would even go so far as to say it is immoral," says Moloney. "Which is precisely why I am burning these flags- to me, these are the symbols of an unjust cause, the degradation of liberty. I suppose in a sense, you could say that I am casting my 'anti-vote'. While everyone vocalizes how much they support this system in their own fashion, I will be vocalizing my opposition."
"It's funny;[why use this symbol and not a comma?] some people expect to get something done or achieve a positive end in a system built on the foundations of a tyrannical majority,[no comma is needed] and the institutionalization of theft. When they eventually don't get what they asked for, or don't get what they voted for, they complain and talk of how politicians are at it again. The thing about this is, the system never worked in their favor in the first place- no one can actually represent them better then themselves, and after a good look at history, when was the last time we can all universally agree we had a great politician in office? Honestly, I think it's a show of poor sportsmanship when people participate in the system and complain when they don't get what they want."
Mr. Moloney does not vote as a matter of "moral opposition", and refuses to take part in any government programs unless it can't be avoided. "I don't like the system- I can't opt out without being forced to leave or being threatened to be thrown in jail. I am constantly held to arbitrary rules, and I as well as everyone else is beholden to the whim of a majority. I'm not even asking that they disassemble the system entirely just for me or those that feel the same as me. Which is what my anti-vote says: 'Leave us alone.[This isn't really a sentence and seems out of place or should be reworded.] We're not going to hurt you, and we don't threaten to take away your home or business if you refuse to pay a fee. We don't hold you to any decisions we as a group might make between us. So please, have the courtesy to do the same for us'. This is all we want- we won't oppose your system so long as you don't force us to participate." [It's kind of strange as you start speaking for yourself but towards the end start speaking for a whole group of people]
-30-
--------------
Now, I'm not sure about the header. Is "Anti-Politics" good enough, or should I change it to something else?
Also, that's pretty much what I have. What should I do with it beyond this?
You need to start the press release by answering the W questions and also make the whole thing shorter. Also, you have too many quotes of yourself. Way too many quotes...
I think this press release is very good. You keep coming back to your main focus, which is your opposition to coercion and your commitment to voluntary solutions.
Mainly, I think you just need to add the time. You've answered all the Who What When Where Why questions in the first paragraph, except that you left the precise time of the event out.
Otherwise, great work!
Hey, I've thought of a great new moniker for the flag. Instead of Old Glory we can call it Old Smokey. ;D
You can't spell conflagration without the flag.
Quote from: Voice on October 15, 2008, 10:16 PM NHFT
FTL, you have misunderstood me. I think the flag buning is a great idea even if I don't have the balls to do it myself. Enraged mobs scare me. What I'm saying is that the press release is a mistake. As for what I'm doing, why do you ask? Do you hold yourself in position to judge me?
I don't think anyone is trying to judge you. The main thing is that there is plenty of criticism from the "Don't Do this, please, anything but this" crowd as it is. I think maybe some of us just grow weary of hearing that something shouldn't be done. (Where's the Yoda emoticon when you need it?)
Second-guessing is discouraging. If we waited until we had the perfect thing to do, done in the perfect way, where nobody would be offended and yet everybody would be moved to change everything they've ever done because they were so inspired by it, well ... if we had something like that odds are we'd have to wake up from our dream and go to work soon anyway. What Jesse is doing will be very powerful. It doesn't have to be perfect to be powerful.
this latest press release seems a little wordy
Eventually, you'll have to just stop listening to everyone and just finalize it. :icon_pirat:
You won't be able to satisfy everyone.
Quote from: Voice on October 15, 2008, 10:16 PM NHFT
FTL, you have misunderstood me. I think the flag buning is a great idea even if I don't have the balls to do it myself. Enraged mobs scare me. What I'm saying is that the press release is a mistake. As for what I'm doing, why do you ask? Do you hold yourself in position to judge me?
How else is the press to find out about it?
I'm not here to judge you. Just asking what you are doing. Your critique might actually be listened to if people knew who you were and why what you have to say is valuable.
Here are a few suggestions, in brackets for easy reference. I think the quotations need to be streamlined.
Keene Activist to Hold Anti-Politics Demonstration in Central SquareKeene, NH, November 3, 2008 -- For some, the political atmosphere associated with the upcoming elections [is] an indicator of changes to come, whether for better or worse, [to be] welcomed every [four] years [Is that what you meant?]. [A] select few, however, []feel things will only stay the same, if not[]worse[n]. To [demonstrate] [Flag-burning isn't
vocal!] this dissatisfaction, one Keene activist will be burning flags representing the United States, [the] United Nations, and the State of New Hampshire [in Central Square] the day prior to election day[day--day echo]. Cory "Jesse" Moloney is an avid promoter of voluntary [action] [over]
- democratic solutions, which he refers to as "nothing short of institutionalized and glorified slavery[."] He openly advocates solving problems[ ] with peaceful, [cooperative] means tailored to each individual instead of what he refers to as a "one-size-fits-all" method that he insists comes with the democratic process[.]
"Everyone else [who] participates in the system get[]s their flag[-]waving time, their parades that march on down Main Street. They then get that golden opportunity to enable politicians to do what they do, which is often to the detriment of liberty and freedom. Millions will vote, and the outcome will be that someone's point of view will be force[-]fed to you whether you like it or not, or whether you even participated in the voting process or not. Frankly, I find it tyrannical, and would even go so far as to say it is immoral," says Moloney. "Which is precisely why I am burning these flags[--]to me, these are the symbols of an unjust cause, the degradation of liberty. I suppose in a sense, you could say that I am casting my 'anti-vote[.'] While [others show] how much they support this system[], I will be [demonstrating] my opposition." [Quote too long--and I don't want to change too much, or it'll start sounding like me!]
"It's funny; some people expect to get something done or achieve a positive end in a system built on the foundations of a tyrannical majority, and the institutionalization of theft. When they eventually don't get what they asked for, or don't get what they voted for, they complain and talk of how politicians are at it again. The thing about this is, the system never worked in their favor in the first place[--]no one can actually represent them better th[a]n themselves, and after a good look at history, when was the last time we can all universally agree we had a great politician in office? Honestly, I think it's a show of poor sportsmanship [sounds too petty] when people participate in the system and complain when they don't get what they want." [Quote much too long.]
Mr. Moloney does not vote as a matter of "moral opposition[,"] and [avoids participating] in [] government programs [whenever possible]. "I don't like the system[--]I can't opt out without being forced to leave or being threatened to be thrown in jail. I am constantly held to arbitrary rules, and I[am,] as [is] everyone else[,] beholden to the whim of a majority. I'm not [] asking that they disassemble the system entirely just for me[,] or [for] those [who] feel the same as me. [That] is what my anti-vote says: 'Leave us alone. We're not going to hurt you, and we don't threaten to take away your home or business if you refuse to pay a fee. We don't hold you to any decisions we as a group might make [][,]o please, have the courtesy to do the same for us[.'] This is all we want[--]we won't oppose your system [as l]ong as you don't force us to participate."
-30-
* You need to work on the echo problem--using the same words in close proximity makes for tedious reading.
I'd touch on main points to keep it short and don't try too hard to elaborate on things. That will be for the event itself and in the fliers you have available. The press release should just be to inspire curiosity.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 16, 2008, 07:33 AM NHFT
Eventually, you'll have to just stop listening to everyone and just finalize it. :icon_pirat:
You won't be able to satisfy everyone.
What? The election isn't today and the press release is pretty bad and needs lots of work. He even asked for help so you are just being ridiculous. I didn't read it but Sam's rewrite is likely pretty good (better than mine), however, it is still too long.
Well shit. I feel like if I cut too much away, the point of it is lost. If I keep it as is, it's too wordy and too shitty.
:\
This is why I encourage you to make an executive decision. Nail it down, get it out, move on to the next step. If it answers the obvious questions, has contact info, and gets your message across - it's good enough. ;)
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 16, 2008, 11:59 AM NHFT
This is why I encourage you to make an executive decision. Nail it down, get it out, move on to the next step. If it answers the obvious questions, has contact info, and gets your message across - it's good enough. ;)
Plus, it's not like there's a lot of activism like this going on. They'll either be interested, or they won't.
Quote from: AnarchoMartyr on October 16, 2008, 11:40 AM NHFT
Well shit. I feel like if I cut too much away, the point of it is lost. If I keep it as is, it's too wordy and too shitty.
:\
If I was doing it:
I don't like the US government .... so I am burning their flag.
My mouse pad is a US flag design. However, I turn it so it flies upside-down. There are also several ink and blood stains on it. Acceptable?
Final draft--
QuoteFor Immediate Release
Contact: Cory "Jesse" Moloney
ApityPrime@gmail.com
Keene Activist to Hold Anti-Politics Demonstration in Central Square
Keene, NH, November 3, 2008 -- How can a flag that flies over other nations in oppressive occupation, a flag that has flown over this land as slavery was glorified until untold thousands lost their lives, a flag that has flown while freedom has been trampled on and rights stripped away ever stand for liberty, asks a local activist. "It can't—and it never has," says Cory "Jesse" Moloney, who is one of a few locals in Keene who feel discontent with what they insist to be a broken system. To demonstrate his discontent, he will be burning three flags, representing the United States, the United Nations, and the State of New Hampshire in Central Square at 2:00 P.M. the Monday prior to election day. Moloney is an avid promoter of voluntary action over democratic solutions, which he refers to as "nothing short of institutionalized and glorified slavery." He openly advocates solving problems with peaceful, cooperative means tailored to each individual instead of what he refers to as a "one-size-fits-all" method that he insists comes with the democratic process.
"Everyone else who participates in the system gets their flag-waving time, their parades that march on down Main Street. They then get that golden opportunity to enable politicians to do what they do, which is often to the detriment of liberty and freedom. Millions will vote, and the outcome will be that someone's point of view will be force-fed to you whether you like it or not, or whether you even participated in the voting process or not. Frankly, I find it tyrannical, and would even go so far as to say it is immoral," says Moloney. He justifies burning these flags by insisting that they are the symbols of an unjust cause, the degradation of liberty. "I suppose in a sense, you could say that I am casting my 'anti-vote.' While others show how much they support this system, I will be demonstrating my opposition."
"It's funny; some people expect to get something done or achieve a positive end in a system built on the foundations of a tyrannical majority, and the institutionalization of theft. When they eventually don't get what they asked for, or don't get what they voted for, they complain and talk of how politicians are at it again. The thing about this is, the system never worked in their favor in the first place-- no one can actually represent them better than themselves." Moloney feels that all government programs and initiatives are in large part involuntary, and lists taxes, the selective service, and Social Security as only a few of the things that he claims to be contrary to liberty. "Every time I hear people talking about voting and how it's 'all going to be better this time around', I visualize some man with a shiny badge clapping me in chains."
Mr. Moloney does not vote as a matter of "moral opposition," and avoids participating in government programs whenever possible. "I don't like the system-- I can't opt out without being forced to leave or being threatened to be thrown in jail. I am constantly held to arbitrary rules, and I am, as is everyone else, held to the whim of a majority. I'm not asking that they disassemble the system entirely just for me, or for those who feel the same as me. That is what my anti-vote says: 'Leave me alone. My friends and I are not going to hurt you, and we don't threaten to take away your home or business if you refuse to pay a fee. We don't hold you to any decisions we as a group might make."
-30-
Any thing that should be done?
I think it's looking a lot better, Jesse. It reads well and I think a lot of people will understand even though most will not agree.
QuoteHow can a flag that flies over other nations in oppressive occupation, a flag that has flown over this land as slavery was glorified until untold thousands lost their lives, a flag that has flown while freedom has been trampled on and rights stripped away ever stand for liberty
Shouldn't that be in quotes with a question mark at the end?
Otherwise looks good. :icon_pirat:
When you finally post it to Free Keene, be sure you use a nice, incendiary thumbnail:
http://images.google.com/images?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS291&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=us%20flag%20burn&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
The current headline is, while accurate, not as interesting as something like, "Keene Activist to Burn UN, US, and NH Flags, 2pm, 11/03 in the Central Square"
Well, if we wanted an interesting title I could always do "Single Keene 20-something with no family to report him missing plans to incite riot with flag burning in Central Square."
Nationalists won't be able to say no to that one.
Yeah, except no one wants a riot. :P
Quote from: FTL_Ian on October 23, 2008, 05:39 PM NHFT
Yeah, except no one wants a riot. :P
no one except jesse
I think he was joking. At least, I hope he was.
Quote from: AnarchoMartyr on October 23, 2008, 03:24 PM NHFT
Final draft--
Contact: Cory "Jesse" Moloney
ApityPrime@gmail.com
Keene Activist to Hold Anti-Politics Demonstration in Central Square
Keene, NH, November 3, 2008 -- "How can a flag that flies over other nations in oppressive occupation, a flag that has flown over this land as slavery was glorified [until untold thousands lost their lives (cut--you're painting the lily(okay, that's no lily . . .))], a flag that has flown while freedom has been trampled on and rights stripped away[,] ever stand for liberty[?"] asks a local activist. "It can't—and it never has," says Cory "Jesse" Moloney, who is one of a few locals in Keene who feel discontent- with what they insist to be a broken system. To demonstrate his discontent[* echo--I'd make the first "discontent" "dissatisfaction"], he will be burning three flags, representing the United States, the United Nations, and the State of New Hampshire[,] in Central Square at 2:00 P.M. the Monday prior to election day. Moloney is an avid promoter of voluntary action over democratic solutions, which he refers to as "nothing short of institutionalized and glorified slavery." He openly advocates solving problems with peaceful, cooperative means tailored to each individual instead of what he refers to as a "one-size-fits-all" method that he insists comes with the democratic process.
"Everyone else who participates in the system gets their flag-waving time, their parades that march on down Main Street. They then get that golden opportunity to enable politicians to do what they do, which is often to the detriment of liberty and freedom. Millions will vote, and the outcome will be that someone's point of view will be force-fed to you whether you like it or not, or whether you even participated in the voting process or not. Frankly, I find it tyrannical, and would even go so far as to say it is immoral," ["tyrannical" goes farther than "immoral" to me] says Moloney. He justifies burning these flags by insisting that they are the symbols of an unjust cause, the degradation of liberty. "I suppose in a sense, you could say that I am casting my 'anti-vote.' While others show how much they support this system, I will be demonstrating my opposition.[" (cut quotation mark if quote continues through to the next paragraph)]
"It's funny; some people expect to get something done or achieve a positive end in a system built on the foundations of a tyrannical majority, and the institutionalization of theft. When they eventually don't get what they asked for, or don't get what they voted for, they complain and talk of how politicians are at it again. The thing about this is, the system never worked in their favor in the first place-- no one can actually represent them better than themselves." Moloney feels that all government programs and initiatives are in large part involuntary, and lists taxes, the elective ervice, and Social Security as only a few of the things that [are (it's your list, they can infer that it's your claim)] contrary to liberty. "Every time I hear people talking about voting and how it's 'all going to be better this time around[,'] I visualize some man with a shiny badge clapping me in chains."
Mr. Moloney does not vote as a matter of "moral opposition," and avoids participating in government programs whenever possible. "I don't like the system--[(close up here)]I can't opt out without being forced to leave or being threatened to be thrown in jail. I am constantly held to arbitrary rules, and I am, as is everyone else, held to the whim of a majority. I'm not asking that they disassemble the system entirely just for me, or for those who feel the same as me. That is what my anti-vote says: 'Leave me alone. My friends and I are not going to hurt you, and we don't threaten to take away your home or business if you refuse to pay a fee. We don't hold you to any decisions we as a group might make.[']"
-30-
Any thing that should be done?
Since you asked . . .
I'd say that's pretty near finished--and you've probably inferred by now how hard to please I am!
Keeniac to defile US empirial flag
I've not time to read everything ...
No calendar entry? What are the - current - basics? Who, what, when, where & why?
I might make it out to (minimally physically) support Jesse. I'm not happy about flag burning but want to support the right to do so.
Quote from: John on November 02, 2008, 12:38 PM NHFT
I've not time to read everything ...
No calendar entry? What are the - current - basics? Who, what, when, where & why?
I might make it out to (minimally physically) support Jesse. I'm not happy about flag burning but want to support the right to do so.
I believe the first post is updated with the correct information. There is also a recent story on freekeene.com about it.
In defending, my strategy is totally nonviolent.
It takes a pound for pound approach to stop an oncoming attack; It takes about one-tenth of that to deflect/redirect/reject the attack.
Quote from: Coconut on November 02, 2008, 12:42 PM NHFTI believe the first post is updated with the correct information.
Thank you much ... that would be better than the average thread - methinks.
LTE I recieved this weekend:
http://www.newhampshirefreepress.com/NHFreePress/?q=node/256
I opened up a Washington, D.C.-based publication recently to an article that featured a United States Citizenship ceremony. It was uplifting to see pictures of beaming faces of those born elsewhere who view their newly received citizenship as an entitlement and not an embarrassment s the flag burning activist "Jesse" clearly does.
Today I was skimming the NH Free Press and came upon an ungrateful punk spouting his discourse on the costliness of the abhorrent institution behind Election Day, and dissatisfaction with not being able to "opt out of the system".
How about the costliness of slain American bodies and blood of our brothers and sisters spilled on foreign soil? That to these honorable men and women, we are not saluting the Union Jack or speaking German. I am confused about how "worship of the state" comes into play. The United States emblem (which is our flag) embodies the country in its totality – the "District of Columbia" included.
The destructive act of purposefully setting fires in order to prove a point is never "peaceful", and is definitely not an attention getter that is warranted without outcome. In this proposed blatant act of aggression, the object to be sacrificed to the flames embodies the collective fiber of the nation as a whole, and is not just an affront to the "sentimental values" of a bureaucratic elite.
The giving of public notice to this event before it takes place is ballsy indeed, but the burning is a personal attack and an "up yours" to anyone who has ever served in the military, or has attended the homecoming of a beloved family member to be greeted by the Stars and Stripes atop a wooden box.
Speaking about personal liberty, Mr. Maloney (rhymes with "baloney"), and respect for your yearning to "opt out of the system", I personally know several vets who wouldn't mind shaking your hand, springing for your plane ticket, and shipping you off to some remote island with a boot planted up your ass.
Said "island" would be emblazoned by no flags (this means no symbols to desecrate) and no inherent moral injustices (laws) would exist. Maybe your envisioned liberty would be further enhanced by an opportunity to engage in dialog with the local land sharks – Sink or swim, bro!
The Vietnam-era Steppenwolf song comes to mind as I close.."Who needs ya". I'll be giving "Jesse" a call if the day comes when I am among the many corralled to the polls with an AK-47 pressed against my temple. Until then, I remain "Gratefully Dedicated". United We Stand!!
Colby A. Lynch
Manchester, NH
Hah, bet that jerk doesn't know Jesse is former military.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on November 03, 2008, 09:04 AM NHFT
Hah, bet that jerk doesn't know Jesse is former military.
Dale and myself, also former military.
I for one find this act hilarious. Especially when nationalists like that C. Lynch get so emotional about a piece of colored cloth.
Act of aggression? What?! It's his own flag, is burning wood an act of aggression too?
"Mr. Maloney (rhymes with "baloney"),"
Man this guy is a DEEP thinker.
so ... I wonder how it is going
Quote from: Russell Kanning on November 03, 2008, 04:04 PM NHFT
so ... I wonder how it is going
Went great :D
Came home with all of my teeth, and didn't walk away in cuffs.
Part I find most disturbing of the LTE:
Quote...when I am among the many corralled to the polls with an AK-47 pressed against my temple.
Right there, that's proof that faith in government is a symptom of stockholm syndrome, as a ruling class not being as absolutely aggressive as it could be is interpreted to mean that said ruling class is acting virtuously.
Kira's photos:
(http://www.nhunderground.com/wiki/show_image.php?id=3327&scalesize=0&nocount=y)
(http://www.nhunderground.com/wiki/show_image.php?id=3328&scalesize=0&nocount=y)
(http://www.nhunderground.com/wiki/show_image.php?id=3329&scalesize=0&nocount=y)
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(http://www.nhunderground.com/wiki/show_image.php?id=3344&scalesize=0&nocount=y)
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(http://www.nhunderground.com/wiki/show_image.php?id=3357&scalesize=0&nocount=y)
I'll post a link to my video when it's done uploading. Anyone else feel free to use it in a FreeKeene.com article. Since so many videos were taken, I would encourage all of them to be under one blog post instead of 6 different freekeene.com blog postings. But what do I know?
a beautiful sight. Congrats Jesse.
I missed a verse today, but this is the "On the Road to Freedom" song I sang today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cobmg8OJCGQ
I didn't realized I sounded so disorganized in my speech :\
Fuck.
Quote from: Giggan on November 03, 2008, 06:38 PM NHFT
Right there, that's proof that faith in government is a symptom of stockholm syndrome, as a ruling class not being as absolutely aggressive as it could be is interpreted to mean that said ruling class is acting virtuously.
exactly
I'm thinking the McCainiack fool who said "...I'll smash that camera" was the one I was watching . . .
However Kat & Lauren spotted the most real/actual physical threat and they redirected him/his ass elsewere.
No harm - No Foul.
NonViolence works -again. ;)
Quote from: AnarchoMartyr on November 03, 2008, 08:15 PM NHFT
I didn't realized I sounded so disorganized in my speech :\
Fuck.
It will take some practice to get used to doing stuff in public.
You'll just have to burn more flags. :icon_pirat:
Looks like it went pretty well.
The idiot women holding McCain signs talking about the cliched "You disrespect the troops! God loves the troops! Troops! Troops! Troops!" made me want to be there with my old uniform on.
I think that would have confused the hell out of those fools.
Here's my whole unedited video of the event:
Part 1 - Flag burning:
Part 2 - Answering Questions:
Part 3 - John Singing "On the road to Freedom":
Thanks for putting up the videos, guys :)
5:12 on Ryan McGuire's first video
the US flag engulfed, detractors yelling rude things, and the butane lighter explodes.
Street drama at it's best.
Thanks for not burning your own self, Jesse. That would have been hard to live down.
Here (http://gallery.me.com/mike.barskey#100339) are my pics.
Jesse, I do not think your speech sounded disorganized. I thought it was clear, easy to hear, easy to understand (although there's no accounting for people who refuse to understand), emotional and passionate yet logical, and appropriate.
Thanks for all the videos and pix, everyone.
I think Jesse's speech was refreshing. It was simple, short, direct and didn't reference esoteric things like laws, dead people, and authoritarian documents.
Mikes pictures are getting much better. Lots of those are suitable for framing.
The pre-interview for the flag burn is finally up. Includes video.
http://anarchyinyourhead.com/2008/11/03/a-good-old-fashioned-flag-burning/
Well, my own burn is up on my blog. It's a little anti-climactic, and to be honest is pretty boring because I was mostly ignored. No cops or media showed up at all to my event. :( I did the shooting myself on my little HP digital camara, so I have a couple pics up and ... the video is uploading so give me 45 minutes and the video should be up too, though it's only going to be about 37 seconds long cause that's all that my digital camara could take. I am pretty happy with how the actual burn took place. I used a thin film of hairspray over the entire canvas and that seemed to result in a slow, sustained burn instead of an "all up in flames all at once" type of burn. A very satisfying, clean burn. http://calebjohnson.org/blog/?p=245
Wow Caleb!
Quote from: Caleb on November 06, 2008, 12:28 AM NHFT
Well, my own burn is up on my blog.
When you do post the video, post it as a response to one of Jesse's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCgaXcd1kXE) and you might get more traffic.
Here's a recent ignorant comment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70KQrgjgqwg):
"it's not legal to burn a flag... fuck obama still though"
cool .... I am sure the government is getting your message of dissatisfaction :)
Put up dale's commentary and also wrote one of my own.
http://www.newhampshirefreepress.com/NHFreePress/?q=node/258
http://www.newhampshirefreepress.com/NHFreePress/?q=node/259
Commentary on the Burning of the United States Flag
By Kat Kanning
I have to admit that I was somewhat ambivalent about this event. This was not out of some hidden reverence for the symbol of the US, but because I knew I was "gonna get it" from my mom over this one. My mother, she doesn't like the current US government any more than the Freestaters do, but she does love the principles this country was founded on – a country that respects the God-given rights of the people, with its government severely limited by the Constitution.
This country became a great place because, for a period of time, the government mostly left people alone. When the fetters were removed, the little guy was free to produce, to create, to make a good life for himself and his family. And that's just what a lot of little guys did with their freedom, making this the most prosperous nation in history. It was a beautiful thing.
It's gone now.
It was inevitable that freedom should gradually disappear. The people who fought for freedom in the US appreciated it. Their children and grandchildren grew progressively more comfortable. They forgot what a danger government can be. Slowly those freedoms dissolved away, like the wearing away of rock in a riverbed. People relied on government to protect "our freedom", when really, it was something each of us needed to look after for ourselves.
Now we've come to this, the United States of today. The government involves itself in every aspect of our lives. No more is the little guy free to produce. He is fettered with regulations, licenses, red tape a mile long. Now, instead of making a better life for him and his family, he stands on a welfare line.
The United States of today in no way respects the rights of people – free speech has been replaced by "free speech zones", freedom from outrageous searches have been replaced by TSA lines and no-knock warrants. Rights to a speedy trial are laughed at by officials at Guantanamo Bay, where torturing prisoners is endorsed by the President himself. Limits on taxation have been replaced by a system that takes nigh upon 50% of all we earn. The government fetters laid down by the Constitution have largely been cut, leaving government free to trample the people.
The idyllic country that my mother holds dear is a dream of the past. It could be created again, but with the same result – the gradual wearing away of freedoms. So is the human race doomed to a perpetual cycle of revolution-freedom-slavery? I believe as long as we hand over the responsibility to protect our freedom to someone else, we will have tyranny. As long as pretend it's OK for government to commit aggression in our name, we will have tyranny. As long as it's OK for one government to initiate violence, we will have tyranny. And since government by its very definition is force and violence, as long as we have government, we will have tyranny.
Excellent article, Kat! So much better than mine. Did find a few typos to bring to your attention.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 06, 2008, 10:18 AM NHFT
This country because a great place because, for a period of time, the government mostly left people alone.
Here's a run-on.
QuoteNo more is the little guy free to produce, he is fettered with regulations, licenses, red tape a mile long.
Could be: No more is the little guy free to produce. He is fettered with regulations, licenses, and red tape a mile long.
Just a suggestion really. Probably not incorrect.
QuoteNow, instead of making a better life for him and his family, he sits onstands in a welfare line.
QuoteThe United States of today in no way respects the rights of people
I love this article. So well said. I think I'll link to it from my blog as well.
Thanks, and thanks for the proofreading :)
Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 06, 2008, 10:18 AM NHFT
This country because a great place because, for a period of time, the government mostly left people alone. When the fetters were removed, the little guy was free to produce, to create, to make a good life for himself and his family. And that's just what a lot of little guys did with their freedom, making this the most prosperous nation in history. It was a beautiful thing.
It's gone now.
It was inevitable that freedom should gradually disappear. The people who fought for freedom in the US appreciated it. Their children and grandchildren grew progressively more comfortable. They forgot what a danger government can be. Slowly those freedoms dissolved away, like the wearing away of rock in a riverbed. People relied on government to protect "our freedom", when really, it was something each of us needed to look after for ourselves.
Now we've come to this, the United States of today. The government involves itself in every aspect of our lives. No more is the little guy free to produce, he is fettered with regulations, licenses, red tape a mile long. Now, instead of making a better life for him and his family, he sits on a welfare line.
The United States of today in no way respect the rights of people – free speech has been replaced by "free speech zones", freedom from outrageous searches have been replaced by TSA lines and no-knock warrants. Rights to a speedy trial are laughed at by officials at Guantanamo Bay, where torturing prisoners is endorsed by the President himself. Limits on taxation have been replaced by a system that takes nigh upon 50% of all we earn. The government fetters laid down by the Constitution have largely been cut, leaving government free to trample the people.
The idyllic country that my mother holds dear is a dream of the past. It could be created again, but with the same result – the gradual wearing away of freedoms. So is the human race doomed to a perpetual cycle of revolution-freedom-slavery? I believe as long as we hand over the responsibility to protect our freedom to someone else, we will have tyranny. As long as pretend it's OK for government to commit aggression in our name, we will have tyranny. As long as it's OK for one group to initiate violence, we will have tyranny.
In its ideal, governance as legitimate authority is simply a voluntary agreement amongst individuals with some mechanism to enforce the agreement so that individual rights are not infringed upon within a negative liberty framework.
What you and we should be objecting to is the "state" where a large plutocratic class uses the power of the "state" to plunder those excluded by privilege to protect their interests.
Here's the more newsy-type article:
http://www.newhampshirefreepress.com/NHFreePress/?q=node/260
Brimming with newsyness! newsitude! it's newsalicious! :D
Well written Kat, I like the personal/mom aspect.
Man, am I ever in trouble. :o I bet she gets out the switch. ;)
Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 06, 2008, 03:38 PM NHFT
Man, am I ever in trouble. :o I bet she gets out the switch. ;)
Does she make you cut your own switch... that is one sad walk outside. :'(
Nice work Kat. ;D
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 06, 2008, 03:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 06, 2008, 03:38 PM NHFT
Man, am I ever in trouble. :o I bet she gets out the switch. ;)
Does she make you cut your own switch... that is one sad walk outside. :'(
She's got a whole switch-garden!
Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 06, 2008, 04:55 PM NHFT
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on November 06, 2008, 03:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on November 06, 2008, 03:38 PM NHFT
Man, am I ever in trouble. :o I bet she gets out the switch. ;)
Does she make you cut your own switch... that is one sad walk outside. :'(
She's got a whole switch-garden!
Don't worry Kat. I am sending this guy over
to protect you.
(http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll21/illbillbachelor/gerbil.gif)
Scary! :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMV8NV9GNPk. My video pf Jesse's protest.
Strike the root link on the eleventh. http://www.strike-the-root.com/2008/november/081111.html
Quote from: David on November 16, 2008, 01:49 AM NHFT
Strike the root link on the eleventh. http://www.strike-the-root.com/2008/november/081111.html
Schweet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TnVHy-g2xs
Letter to the Editor I received about the flag burn:
http://www.newhampshirefreepress.com/NHFreePress/?q=node/277
Flag Burning, Revolution, and Secession
This letter is in reference to your article "Activist Plans to Burn US Flag Nov. 3rd" and Ryan Young's letter from Reno, NV, "Regarding Burning the US Flag in Keene" Both article and letter appeared in the New Hampshire Free Press (October 2008).
I, for one, wish to congratulate "Jesse" Maloney, 21, of Keene, NH [who, after announcing his valid reasons] plans to burn a US flag just prior to the election on Monday, Nov. 3rd at 2:00pm in Central Square, Keene.
However, American Revolutionary War flags, such as "Liberty", "Betsy Ross" (13 stars and stripes), "Don't Tread on Me", colonial town militia and the 13 original sovereign state flags, all predate the emergence of the flag which symbolizes the US Imperialist Empire. These pre-US American flags should never be burned because they flew under our glorious Articles of Confederation, the Constitution of the Revolution, which liberated us from British Tyranny until Shay's Rebellion (1786) was crushed by the US Empire in embryo.
American Revolutionary War flags should replace the US flag so that the Stars & Stripes shall never have to be burned again, any time, any place.
The un-American flag of the Tory hatched, Bill of Rightless Constitution of the Us Federalist "Republic", born from the jack boot of Terror over the rebellious, anti-federalist colonists of western Massachusetts in 1786, is now, as it was at birth, a symbol of Universal Tyranny.
My bet is that American Anti-federalist founding fathers, such as, Philadelphiensis Patrick Henry, John De Witt, et al, would have championed Jesse Maloney's burning of the US flag (and his reasons for doing so) because they authored the "sentiments" and precepts of the Revolution, i.e. the Bill of Rights, after having violently opposed the creation of the US Federal Constitution and Federal Government and its Tory flag which they declared to be: "a consolidated Union", "an Empire", "execrable commands of Tyranny", "commanding a standing army", "illegal", "undemocratic", "unconstitutional", "not a republic", "an aristocratic tyranny" "a despotic monarchy", "a destroyer of Equal Liberty", "a total dereliction from the sentiments of the Revolution." (1) How else could the US Empire have conceived, carried out and covered-up the genocide of its own people on 9/11/01, if it had not been born "a total dereliction from the sentiments of the Revolution"? (John De Witt)
Again, I would like to wish many happy returns of the day to Jesse Maloney for expressing his worthy ideas and for risking loss of Liberty in America's emerging secessionist fever and War on Tyranny, American Revolutionary War style. But, when I look into Obama's face, I see "Bleeding Kansas" and Gettysburg. (2)
Yours Truly
For a Free Menotomy*
David G. Pearson
Arlington, MA
(1) "The Letters of Philadelphiensis," The Complete Anti-Federalist by Herbert J Storing (Chicago, 1981); and The William and Mary Quarterly, 3rd Series, Vol. XII, No. 1, (1955), pp. 3-46 under the title, "Men of Little Faith: The Anti-Federalists on the Nature of Representative Government."
(2)See Secession: How Vermont and all the other States Can Save Themselves from the Empire, by Thomas H. Naylor, Feral House, 2008; and Vermont's free state secessionist underground think tank & citizen's network at POB 544, Charlotte, Vermont 05445, Telephone 802-425-4133, web vermontrepublic.org.
(*) "Swift Running Water" stronghold of the Massachusetts, birthplace of the American Revolution and Uncle Sam (Wilson), originator of West Cambridge and Arlington, Massachusetts.
Another letter
http://www.newhampshirefreepress.com/NHFreePress/?q=node/293
The flag burning was more than just dumb.
The November issue of the Free Press featured on the front page a photograph of Jesse Maloney buring a U.S. flag. And.......then what?
Did tyrants fall? Did the money system reform? Did the holocaust of innocent babies even slow down?
Of course not! Nothing good comes from such childish tantrums.
What did the flag do wrong? For most Americans, of whatever political pursuasion, the flag symbolizes what is GOOD about America: the unalienable rights, freedom of belief and religious practice, economic opportunity and limited government.
That anarchists should be iconoclasts is like butter on bread. They just seem to go together.
It is obvious that the Free Press did not just report the matter, but FEATURED this political blunder. I say "blunder" because, for all of the important issues that this paper addresses and for all of the gutsy activism I see covered, this "story" offended more than it informed. It discouraged rather than inspired. And it tarnished the medium whose editorial favor it clearly enjoyed.
If your goal is to disaffect most of your readers and incur the antipathy of those of us who are patriots and love our country, then stories like these will probably do the job.
I have a suggestion, though. How about an apology?
Michael J. Walsh, J.D.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on January 02, 2009, 11:44 AM NHFT
...
I have a suggestion, though. How about an apology?
Michael J. Walsh, J.D.
I'm sorry that you are so judgmental and closed-minded. I'm sorry you think that people whose view it is that the US flag represents the
good things about the United States should have reign over the lives of people who think it symbolizes the
bad things as well. I'm sorry you were faced with this great opportunity to ask questions and learn another point of view, but instead insulted the person who held it.
Did you want that printed?
Quote from: Kat Kanning on January 02, 2009, 11:44 AM NHFT
I have a suggestion, though. How about an apology?
I know Jesse and all I could think of when I saw that was "Cold day in Hell".
If you are going to print it, give Mike a chance to fix this sentence.
QuoteI'm sorry you think that people whose view it is that the US flag represents the good things about the United States should have reign over the lives of people who think it symbolizes the bad things as well.
In some ways the guy may be right .... but since we are more interested in promoting the destruction of the US Empire than worrying about political blunders ... I guess we will continue to cover young radicals. I figure guys like Thomas Jefferson would support messy freedom over conformity to tyranny and I want to be in that company. :)
ah yeah I heard that word 'Patriot' before. . . it was bastardized then too.
Quote from: Kat Kanning on January 02, 2009, 01:02 PM NHFT
Did you want that printed?
I wasn't looking to get it printed, I was just being snarky. But I don't mind if you print it.
Radical's right, though: this sentence is bad:
QuoteI'm sorry you think that people whose view it is that the US flag represents the good things about the United States should have reign over the lives of people who think it symbolizes the bad things as well.
Here are some apologies. I'm sorry that you are so judgmental and closed-minded. I'm sorry you think that some people (whose think the US flag represents good things about the United States) should have reign over the lives of people with differing opinions (who think it symbolizes the bad things as well). I'm sorry you were faced with this great opportunity to ask questions and learn another point of view, but instead insulted the person who held it.
How's that?
"I'm sorry that you are a fool who thinks your opinion of a piece of cloth has more weight than another persons opinion."
anyone else who supports Jesse's free speech want to apologize?
MICHAEL J. WALSH, J.D.
Troy, New Hampshire
from another letter to the editor
I guess JD means
http://www.answers.com/topic/juris-doctor
I'm sorry that Michael J. Walsh missed his chance to change people's minds by offering convincing reasons, instead of weak jokes and insults.
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on January 02, 2009, 05:53 PM NHFT
I'm sorry that Michael J. Walsh missed his chance to change people's minds by offering convincing reasons, instead of weak jokes and insults.
I think that should be printed, too.
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on January 02, 2009, 05:53 PM NHFT
I'm sorry that Michael J. Walsh missed his chance to change people's minds by offering convincing reasons, instead of weak jokes and insults.
Oh, SLAM!
Quote from: dalebert on January 02, 2009, 01:13 PM NHFT
Quote from: Kat Kanning on January 02, 2009, 11:44 AM NHFT
I have a suggestion, though. How about an apology?
I know Jesse and all I could think of when I saw that was "Cold day in Hell".
I got the impression he was leaning more towards the editor of the NHFP apologizing for featuring the article.
That's what I thought, too.
Oh, my bad. My thought to that is "Cold day in Hell".
Quote from: Kat Kanning on January 02, 2009, 11:44 AM NHFT
What did the flag do wrong? For most Americans, of whatever political pursuasion, the flag symbolizes what is GOOD about America: the unalienable rights, freedom of belief and religious practice, economic opportunity and limited government.
And which of those do we still have?