New Hampshire Underground

New Hampshire Underground => Underground Projects => Secession => Topic started by: anarkhos on September 25, 2008, 02:18 AM NHFT

Title: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: anarkhos on September 25, 2008, 02:18 AM NHFT
Hans-Hermann Hoppe wrote an essay called: On the Impossibility of Limited Government and the Prospects for a Second American Revolution (http://mises.org/story/2874)  In this essay he recommends that the best course of action for Libertarians to free themselves from State rule in the US is to secede as a city, and not as an entire state.

I wonder sincerely, is there a particular city in New Hampshire or Vermont that would be willing to secede above any other?  I might be willing to move there, if there was a organized movement to pull in hundreds of Libertarians.

-Gavin Engel
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: Brandon on September 25, 2008, 02:24 AM NHFT
Interesting. I'd probably be willing to move there as well.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: anarkhos on September 25, 2008, 03:14 AM NHFT
Additionally, wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a nationwide `Free City Project` (a nod towards the NH Free State Project).  Perhaps a single city deemed most libertarian in every state were chosen as the local Free City.  That way, Libertarians would not necessarily need to uproot their families to a new state.  And if the free city was within commuting distance of a large city, then they would find it easier to sustain themselves financially.


The point, I suppose, would be to push for a majority of Libertarian city councilors willing to declare independence from the US Government, and for the townsfolk to be willing to engage in mass civil disobedience when State police and National Guardsmen enter the town.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: dalebert on September 25, 2008, 12:08 PM NHFT
The obvious first thought to come to mind is Grafton. Duh. :)
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: John Edward Mercier on September 25, 2008, 12:24 PM NHFT
NH is set up for the State to be sovereign... with the municipalities being incorporated and receiving legal authority from the State. The only thing I can think of is the Republic of Indian Stream, but its been resolved to be part of the State (with the property currently the Connecticut Lakes Headwaters).

I'll have to think about it for a while. I know it is possible for a municipality to secede from a county... and property to secede from a municipality.
The economics probably isn't that hard...


Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 25, 2008, 01:11 PM NHFT
The Freeland of Keene - come join us!   8)
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: AntonLee on September 25, 2008, 05:14 PM NHFT
do you guys still do that Vendetta on Sundays?  I'm really trying to get my girlfriend to agree on Keene. . . so far she's agreed to NH and is warm on Grafton.  I want to get her out to Keene (and go for the first time myself) to check it out.

I already KNOW where I want to live.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 25, 2008, 05:19 PM NHFT
Yes.

http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=5.0
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: Jared on September 25, 2008, 05:39 PM NHFT
seems to me that porcs are already doing this is keene and (lord knows why) seabrook.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: AntonLee on September 25, 2008, 05:44 PM NHFT
seems to me that porcs are already doing this is keene and (lord knows why) seabrook.

I love Seabrook, some of the brookers I could do without since I grew up along side their rock throwing inbred asses since I was a kid.   If there was a town on the east coast that was a site for a porc to live, it'd be the 'brook. 

however

I think Seabrook has quite a long way to go, a really really long way.  I want to move west, young man.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: Jared on September 25, 2008, 05:52 PM NHFT
seems to me that porcs are already doing this is keene and (lord knows why) seabrook.

I love Seabrook, some of the brookers I could do without since I grew up along side their rock throwing inbred asses since I was a kid.   If there was a town on the east coast that was a site for a porc to live, it'd be the 'brook. 

however

I think Seabrook has quite a long way to go, a really really long way.  I want to move west, young man.

to be honest, i'd probably move to either deerfield or keene, except that where i am now i have a halfway decent job (at least, for someone with little college under his belt) and my family lives less then half an hour away. i have the rare porcupine luxury of having my family nearby (although sometimes that isn't really much of a luxury :P)
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: AntonLee on September 25, 2008, 10:52 PM NHFT
I have my family nearby too. . . I was a born masshole.

my family epitomize the word 'masshole'

so I hear you about them being close
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: David on September 25, 2008, 11:15 PM NHFT
A nonviolent Secession, hmm, yea, that would be pretty cool.  It would seem to be a logical extention of our efforts. 

BTW, Jared, the more you post, the more I would love to see you in Keene.   :)
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: John Edward Mercier on September 26, 2008, 09:42 AM NHFT
It would have to be non-violent to suceed. But I'm not sure how to secede from the State... I can think of a few ways to limit interaction with... and I'm not sure it requires a specific location, more so the consensual agreement of those within the geographic region of the new town/enclave.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 26, 2008, 08:45 PM NHFT
Word choice suggestion:

Peaceful instead of nonviolent.

Be FOR instead of AGAINST.
 8)

Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 01, 2008, 01:10 AM NHFT
I have not heard of anyone in Seabrook NH talking about seceding ... tell me more of their plans. :pirateship:
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: BillKauffman on November 01, 2008, 05:50 AM NHFT
Killington, VT should have been the best test case because they wanted to secede to NH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killington,_Vermont_secession_movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killington,_Vermont_secession_movement)

This way the Second Vermont Republic folks and the Free State Project folks could have worked together on a common issue.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 01, 2008, 09:05 AM NHFT
That would simply be a secession from one State to another...
It was also non-violent, though not that peaceful if I remember correctly (confrontation never seems to be).

Would Hoppe's be talking more along the line of enclave of secession?
Something like the Shakers or Amish that limit their interaction with the outside.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: BillKauffman on November 01, 2008, 11:03 AM NHFT
That would simply be a secession from one State to another...

I was suggesting that Killington set-up a "city-state" of sorts within VT so SVR (a left-libertarian project) and FSP (a right-libertarian project) could work on it together to show solidarity.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 01, 2008, 11:14 AM NHFT
Which part of the link made you think Killington was left-libertarian?
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: BillKauffman on November 01, 2008, 02:06 PM NHFT
Which part of the link made you think Killington was left-libertarian?

The SVR is.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: Lumpy on November 01, 2008, 04:57 PM NHFT
Anyone in Keene doing this yet?  I want to take part in it.  I know there is a state college etc. and ties to the state in many forms and fashions (speaking of which what is the word on the "new cage facility"?) but we'll be in Keene soon and want to do our part to make this possible.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 03, 2008, 06:56 AM NHFT
you could go for a part of Keene ... since most people there don't mind being part of the borg
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: AntonLee on December 03, 2008, 03:00 PM NHFT
I have not heard of anyone in Seabrook NH talking about seceding ... tell me more of their plans. :pirateship:

;crickets; 

I was actually in Seabrook about a half hour ago and got laughed at by my co-workers when I brought up secession again.  I'd much rather personally secede before I plan for an entire town.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: John Edward Mercier on December 05, 2008, 02:22 PM NHFT
Might be because Seabrook is incorporated by the State of NH?
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: tracysaboe on December 07, 2008, 03:46 AM NHFT
Is Keene not incorporated by the State?

Tracy
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: John Edward Mercier on December 07, 2008, 05:21 PM NHFT
The City of Keene is incorporated by the State.
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: Lumpy on December 16, 2008, 06:19 PM NHFT
The City of Keene is incorporated by the State.
What does it mean to be living on "incorporated land" or an "incorporated town"?
Title: Re: Hoppe's plan: Secession of Individual towns, not states.
Post by: John Edward Mercier on December 16, 2008, 08:05 PM NHFT
NH is what is known as a Dillon Rule State.

In laymen's terms, it means the State is sovereign and the municipalities derive their authority from it.
The State actual incorporates the towns/cities just like it would any other corporation with incorporators, a charter of by-laws, etc.

If you move to an area that is unincorporated... it means there is no municipality. You have only the county and the State.