New Hampshire Underground

New Hampshire Underground => Voluntaryism/Anarchism => Topic started by: David on December 04, 2008, 10:18 PM NHFT

Title: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: David on December 04, 2008, 10:18 PM NHFT
It isn't anarchism, but it is voluntaryism.  I have become quite fascinated with it. 
http://www.panarchy.org/

http://www.panarchy.org/depuydt/1860.eng.html
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: AntonLee on December 04, 2008, 10:38 PM NHFT
I bookmarked it but I have to look later, it's just too much for bedtime  :)
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Giggan on December 04, 2008, 10:44 PM NHFT
Don't really get it, but perhaps I should do more reading. Perhaps this is like Autarchy, which is 'distinguished' from anarchism, but is similar enough. I think cool labels are a way of disassociating anarchy with 'chaos', which is really rather fantasy-ish. Like Utopia, the dystopia associated with anarchy would not be tolerated by the populous without a force to hold it in place, thus it is strictly theoretical.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Ryan McGuire on December 04, 2008, 10:54 PM NHFT
This is a first for me, but what I get from a cursory glance is that a panarchic system is very different from voluntaryism (and it is a system, as opposed to voluntaryism which is spontaneous order). It sounds like in panarchy you get to choose your form of government, even if you don't live where that form of government exists. However, you MUST choose a form of government, and likely from a list of approved governments.

It's not voluntary if I must choose from their list.

Perhaps this is like Autarchy, which is 'distinguished' from anarchism, but is similar enough.

I actually think that the distinction between anarchy and autarchy is not a small one. I've been meaning to write an essay on that, but have found it dificult to come up with the right non-combative language to do so in a persuasive way. I'm an autarchist.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Giggan on December 04, 2008, 11:00 PM NHFT
Cool, I'd be interested in reading it when you're done. I honestly don't know much about autarchy, but from everything I've read it sounds free-market enough that it would be the organization people opposed to anarchy just pretend doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Scott Roth on December 05, 2008, 09:49 AM NHFT
Interesting reading.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 05, 2008, 12:42 PM NHFT
if we get the perfect term ... will we then be free? ;)
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: dalebert on December 05, 2008, 01:49 PM NHFT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panarchy

It's another word for anarchy or voluntaryism, in essence.

Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 05, 2008, 03:16 PM NHFT
so ... are we now free?
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: sandm000 on December 05, 2008, 03:35 PM NHFT
so ... are we now free?
To move about the cabin? yes.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: dalebert on December 05, 2008, 03:36 PM NHFT
so ... are we now free?

Apparently not free from arguments of semantics, no.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Kat Kanning on December 05, 2008, 04:43 PM NHFT
Anarchists who love pancakes = panarchists?
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Ryan McGuire on December 05, 2008, 04:50 PM NHFT
if we get the perfect term ... will we then be free? ;)

Are you proposing that we not discuss it? I'm not really a fan of Anarchism without adjectives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_without_adjectives). I'm all for friendly dialog, as well as for making sensible compromises in the real world, but as long as we're going to be talking about an ideal world I'm going to be highly uncompromising on what that ideal world should be like.

If we don't know where we're going, how are we going to get there?
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Giggan on December 05, 2008, 09:29 PM NHFT
Are you proposing that we not discuss it? I'm not really a fan of Anarchism without adjectives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_without_adjectives). I'm all for friendly dialog, as well as for making sensible compromises in the real world, but as long as we're going to be talking about an ideal world I'm going to be highly uncompromising on what that ideal world should be like.

If we don't know where we're going, how are we going to get there?

Good point, considering there's a contingent of socialists claiming us to be artificial anarchists. I do feel that if you're against harming other's persons or property, stop bothering with labels and work together, but if there's a clear difference of ideology where we don't line up, we should at least know the distinction.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 06, 2008, 02:51 PM NHFT
Are you proposing that we not discuss it?
I propose that sometimes people in this movement never get past discussion.
I often tire of the discussion of the perfect term. I wanted to give David K a nudge in the ribs over another discussion.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Caleb on December 07, 2008, 10:23 AM NHFT
Of all the anarchists/panarchists/whateverarchists in Keene, David is on my top five list for best idea:  His anarchy house project idea should be implemented asap. I'm not sure what is holding you back now, bud, there's tons of people who have moved into the area, and real estate is nearing bottom. What is the status of that project? What can be done to move it forward?
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Raineyrocks on December 07, 2008, 03:58 PM NHFT
Anarchists who love pancakes = panarchists?

 :biglaugh:
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on December 07, 2008, 05:49 PM NHFT
Anarchists who love pancakes = panarchists?

Apparently I are one!
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: David on December 07, 2008, 07:39 PM NHFT
Are you proposing that we not discuss it?
I propose that sometimes people in this movement never get past discussion.
I often tire of the discussion of the perfect term. I wanted to give David K a nudge in the ribs over another discussion.

:D  I understood the original intent.  Many in this movement are 'debateatarians'.  In fact, most are.  The greatest plans in the world mean nothing if all it remains, is a plan. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panarchy

It's another word for anarchy or voluntaryism, in essence.



The biggest difference is that in advocating panarchy, I end up advocating for gov't, at least for others, to give them what they want, in the attempt to get what I want, a voluntary 'gov't'. 
It is a big mental shift for me to go from opposing all gov'ts to suggesting Panarchic gov'ts. 

Of all the anarchists/panarchists/whateverarchists in Keene, David is on my top five list for best idea:  His anarchy house project idea should be implemented asap. I'm not sure what is holding you back now, bud, there's tons of people who have moved into the area, and real estate is nearing bottom. What is the status of that project? What can be done to move it forward?
A few people seemed interested, but the status is zilch.  Need money to buy property.  I don't have it, and I screwed my credit up last year when money was particularly tight.  The project will not work on rental property, not in the principled means equal ends method I wanted. 
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: dalebert on December 07, 2008, 08:13 PM NHFT
I propose that sometimes people in this movement never get past discussion.

Are we allowed to have discussions when we are ALSO doing productive stuph?
 :D
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Raineyrocks on December 07, 2008, 08:17 PM NHFT
Anarchists who love pancakes = panarchists?

Apparently I are one!

I are too or two!  ;D
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 08, 2008, 07:38 AM NHFT
I propose that sometimes people in this movement never get past discussion.

Are we allowed to have discussions when we are ALSO doing productive stuph?
 :D
I propose we listen to Dale when he is making us muffins.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: memenode on December 27, 2008, 01:22 AM NHFT
I don't really care about the term anymore so long as nobody imposes one on me. I also don't really care anymore about debating on this forum, preaching to the choir, although the fact there is such a thing as a minarchist (or whatever you call those who still have excuses for initiation of force) does make me squirm, but I somehow think they're close enough that it's almost inevitable for them to just drop over the edge sooner or later.

What I'm doing instead is debating with non-libertairans and non-voluntaryists, the people out there at large, whomever I get a chance with, from my sister to folks on a tech site to which I post some of my articles to people who use my IRC channel (which this year basically turned from a 10% voluntaryist to around 60% voluntaryist showing me incredible vindication of the voluntaryist ideas).

But when I discuss I don't go throw a label on what I'm advocating up front. I almost find that to be a stupid thing to do actually. It's like immediately saying to someone "I'm different and probably better than you cause I am an this*ist and you are that*ist". That sucks. Instead, the best strategy seems to ask questions that they aren't used to asking themselves. It's incredible how quickly this leads them to some interestingly sounding hmmms. They finally start thinking the unthinkable and realizing what they never expected to realize.

I'm gonna start a web site for this stuff and also start making HD video propaganda for it with these kinds of tingling questions, without upfront terminology and isms. For some reason I imagine a perfect storm will result.

So yea.. no more debates. It's time to help them reprogram their minds. </rant>
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Scott Roth on December 27, 2008, 01:30 AM NHFT
Sounds fairly reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: David on December 27, 2008, 01:39 AM NHFT
Agreed.  Not trying to debate people out of their convictions.  Just trying to find others interested in the idea. 
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: EthanLeeVita on December 27, 2008, 09:33 AM NHFT
What's your IRC channel and on what server is it?
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: memenode on December 27, 2008, 11:12 AM NHFT
What's your IRC channel and on what server is it?

irc.freenode.net #libervis
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: David on January 05, 2009, 06:02 PM NHFT
An article on voluntary gov't, aka panarchy by Michael Roseff from lewrockwell.com
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff252.html
Why Governments Should Be Voluntary
Title: Re: Any Panarchists Here?
Post by: Kat Kanning on January 05, 2009, 06:52 PM NHFT
An article on voluntary gov't, aka panarchy by Michael Roseff from lewrockwell.com
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff252.html
Why Governments Should Be Voluntary

 :D  I like his articles.