Hello:
First of all, my first question is: is this the right place to post questions about the Shire Hours system? Or is there another, more appropriate forum?
Second, a couple friends of mine and i want to begin using Shire Hours to keep track of services we do for each other. (Actually, one guy is a friend-of-my-friend whom I don't really trust except to fix my car before I pay him)
So my second question is this: I want to send my friend an invitation to Shire Hours. It asks me to enter a "Credit Limit." What number should I enter there?
Quote from: mackler on January 01, 2009, 02:43 PM NHFT
Hello:
First of all, my first question is: is this the right place to post questions about the Shire Hours system? Or is there another, more appropriate forum?
For now, this is as good as any. I've stuck a beta version forum (SimpleMachines 2.0) onto network.shirehours.com but have not made any sections like "user questions" or "service directory" or even opened registration yet. When I get that sorted out, I'll let people here know about it.
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Second, a couple friends of mine and i want to begin using Shire Hours to keep track of services we do for each other. (Actually, one guy is a friend-of-my-friend whom I don't really trust except to fix my car before I pay him)
That's no trouble at all if your friend has elected to let notes pass through him. If you and your friend have trust, and your friend and
his friend have trust, you can pay your friend's friend without opening a credit line with him. The software links you up so that your friend recieves the payment and hands it to his friend automatically.
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So my second question is this: I want to send my friend an invitation to Shire Hours. It asks me to enter a "Credit Limit." What number should I enter there?
Enter the maximum value IOU that you would accept from that person as good. That will be the most he can then pay you in shire hours (or silver) until you begin to pay him back. It's the highest balance you can have through him and the lowest balance he can have through you. But if he works you half to death, then pays you in ShireHours and skips out, you're SOL.
All trust on ShireHours is up to the users by the limited connections they've made.
Quoteauthor=Barterer link=topic=16664.msg279783#msg279783 date=1230862164]
Quote from: mackler on January 01, 2009, 02:43 PM NHFT
So my second question is this: I want to send my friend an invitation to Shire Hours. It asks me to enter a "Credit Limit." What number should I enter there?
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Enter the maximum value IOU that you would accept from that person as good. That will be the most he can then pay you in shire hours (or silver) until you begin to pay him back. It's the highest balance you can have through him and the lowest balance he can have through you. But if he works you half to death, then pays you in ShireHours and skips out, you're SOL. All trust on ShireHours is up to the users by the limited connections they've made.
Well, honestly I wouldn't take an IOU from him, because he's broke most of the time (sorry bro if you're reading this). That's why we're hoping that a trading system like ShireHours can help us get around the need for money. He's a great massage therapist, and he can give me a backrub anytime, but I would not take an IOU from him for any value and expect him to have the money to pay me.
Are you saying that underlying the ShireHours system is an assumption that eventually there will be a monetary settlement? I was under the impression that we could use it to trade services-for-services without ever having any money involved.
FIFY
Quote from: mackler on January 01, 2009, 09:54 PM NHFT
Well, honestly I wouldn't take an IOU from him, because he's broke most of the time (sorry bro if you're reading this). That's why we're hoping that a trading system like ShireHours can help us get around the need for money. He's a great massage therapist, and he can give me a backrub anytime, but I would not take an IOU from him for any value and expect him to have the money to pay me.
You're assuming that IOUs are in the form of US dollars exclusively. If you value backrubs and that is the only way the guy has of providing value, set his credit limit for X hours of backrubbing. Obviously there's a point of diminished returns once your back is nice and rubbed, so you'll also have to consider the timeframe of your compensation.
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Are you saying that underlying the ShireHours system is an assumption that eventually there will be a monetary settlement? I was under the impression that we could use it to trade services-for-services without ever having any money involved.
No. Trading silver or hours is the default. If you want to be able to cash out at any time, you have to make that clear to your trading partner. Otherwise, he pays you back with the backrubs or whatever else is acceptable to you.
Quote from: Barterer on January 01, 2009, 10:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: mackler on January 01, 2009, 09:54 PM NHFT
Well, honestly I wouldn't take an IOU from him, because he's broke most of the time (sorry bro if you're reading this). That's why we're hoping that a trading system like ShireHours can help us get around the need for money. He's a great massage therapist, and he can give me a backrub anytime, but I would not take an IOU from him for any value and expect him to have the money to pay me.
You're assuming that IOUs are in the form of US dollars exclusively. If you value backrubs and that is the only way the guy has of providing value, set his credit limit for X hours of backrubbing. Obviously there's a point of diminished returns once your back is nice and rubbed, so you'll also have to consider the timeframe of your compensation.
Yes, we definitely want to keep US dollars out of the setup. Backrubs aren't the only way he has of providing value. He also grows amazing cilantro which I'm always trying to persuade him to share with me. I don't know if that affects your answer. Anyway, assuming I'm going to set his credit limit to X hours, how do I decide what X is?
Quote from: mackler on January 03, 2009, 11:03 AM NHFT
He also grows amazing cilantro which I'm always trying to persuade him to share with me. I don't know if that affects your answer. Anyway, assuming I'm going to set his credit limit to X hours, how do I decide what X is?
Add the value of the cilantro to the total:
X
total = X
backrub + (cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
Quote from: Barterer on January 03, 2009, 02:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: mackler on January 03, 2009, 11:03 AM NHFT
He also grows amazing cilantro which I'm always trying to persuade him to share with me. I don't know if that affects your answer. Anyway, assuming I'm going to set his credit limit to X hours, how do I decide what X is?
Add the value of the cilantro to the total:
Xtotal = Xbackrub + (cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
lol, nice formula
Value in this case is subjective, and a bit experimental. The Shire Hours system lets you raise or lower the credit limits you place on your trading partners when you raise or lower your estimation of the man's trustworthiness - It's a tool for allowing a whole bunch of personal trust evaluations work as a system.
PS: There's a good article either on the FAQ page or in a separate article by barterer on the Shire Hours site - it really helped me understand and appreciate the system.
Quote from: Barterer on January 03, 2009, 02:27 PM NHFT
Quote from: mackler on January 03, 2009, 11:03 AM NHFT
He also grows amazing cilantro which I'm always trying to persuade him to share with me. I don't know if that affects your answer. Anyway, assuming I'm going to set his credit limit to X hours, how do I decide what X is?
Add the value of the cilantro to the total:
Xtotal = Xbackrub + (cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
Did you mean to put the open paren in front of the backrub value rather than the cilantro value? So this:
X
total = (X
backrub + cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
Quote from: mackler on January 04, 2009, 06:19 PM NHFT
So this:
Xtotal = (Xbackrub + cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
No. That would cut your backrub hours in half needlessly! The /2 is there because of the 2:1 ratio of shire hours to Oz.Ag; it only applies to the silver part.
Quote from: Barterer on January 04, 2009, 06:59 PM NHFT
Quote from: mackler on January 04, 2009, 06:19 PM NHFT
So this:
Xtotal = (Xbackrub + cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
No. That would cut your backrub hours in half needlessly! The /2 is there because of the 2:1 ratio of shire hours to Oz.Ag; it only applies to the silver part.
Okay, I think I'm starting to get it. :) Services are valued in hours, and goods are valued in ouncesAG.
And one hour is worth two ounces? Is that correct?
So when I enter a credit limit for someone else on the "new connection" page, I can choose hours or ounces, and it doesn't matter which. But if I choose hours then the number I enter should be half what it would have been if I had chosen ounces? Or if I choose ounces then the number for credit should be twice what it would be had I chosen hours. Is that correct?
Thanks!
Quote from: mackler on January 04, 2009, 09:20 PM NHFT
Okay, I think I'm starting to get it. :) Services are valued in hours, and goods are valued in ouncesAG.
Not necessarily, but some people like to just deal in labor-hours when it's a service.
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And one hour is worth two ounces? Is that correct?
No. Two ShireHours = one ounce.
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So when I enter a credit limit for someone else on the "new connection" page, I can choose hours or ounces, and it doesn't matter which.
Yes, provided you have no preference.
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But if I choose hours then the number I enter should be half what it would have been if I had chosen ounces? Or if I choose ounces then the number for credit should be twice what it would be had I chosen hours. Is that correct?
Thanks!
Exactly backwards. 2 SH = 1 Oz.Ag
Quote from: jaqeboy on January 03, 2009, 10:00 PM NHFT
...
PS: There's a good article either on the FAQ page or in a separate article by barterer on the Shire Hours site - it really helped me understand and appreciate the system.
Here's the article: "Why Shire Hours?" (http://www.shirehours.com/essay/)
Jack - The bulk of that article was written by Ryan Fugger, not me.. but it applies to ShireHours just as well.
The comments and questions from Mackler have led to a revision of the messages people see when assigning someone a credit limit. With each go-around, it gets just a little easier to use. 8)
Quote from: Barterer on January 04, 2009, 09:49 PM NHFT
Quote from: mackler on January 04, 2009, 09:20 PM NHFT
Okay, I think I'm starting to get it. :) Services are valued in hours, and goods are valued in ouncesAG.
Not necessarily, but some people like to just deal in labor-hours when it's a service.
Quote
And one hour is worth two ounces? Is that correct?
No. Two ShireHours = one ounce.
Quote
So when I enter a credit limit for someone else on the "new connection" page, I can choose hours or ounces, and it doesn't matter which.
Yes, provided you have no preference.
Quote
But if I choose hours then the number I enter should be half what it would have been if I had chosen ounces? Or if I choose ounces then the number for credit should be twice what it would be had I chosen hours. Is that correct?
Thanks!
Exactly backwards. 2 SH = 1 Oz.Ag
I must be missing something. Help me walk through this. Here's the formula you give for determining the number I will enter into the 'credit limit" box:
X
total = X
backrub + (cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
Suppose hypothetically, that one backrub has the same value as one container of cilantro. Suppose I want to give a credit limit of one hour's worth of backrub and one hour's worth of cilantro. The formula should give me the number "2", for two hours total, right?
You say that one ounce is worth two hours. So one hour is worth 1/2 ounce, correct?
If I convert the value of the cilantro from hours to ounces, and if one hour is worth 1/2 ounce, then one-hour of cilantro is worth 1/2 ounce, right?
Again, I'm adding one hour of each to get two hours. So converting the one-hour of cilantro to 1/2 ounce, I'm now adding one hour of backrub plus 1/2 ounce of cilantro. The credit limit formula is:
X
total = X
backrub + (cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
In the right-most part of the forlmula you say to divide the ounce-value of the cilantro by 2. 1/2 divided by 2 is 1/4. Adding the 1/4 to the 1 for the backrub gives me 1
1/
4 (1.25) not 2.
Obviously I'm missing something!
Hell's Bells! :biglaugh: You're making this way harder than necessary. But it's kind of fun, so here we go:
Quote from: mackler on January 05, 2009, 10:35 PM NHFT
I must be missing something. Help me walk through this. Here's the formula you give for determining the number I will enter into the 'credit limit" box:
Xtotal = Xbackrub + (cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
Suppose hypothetically, that one backrub has the same value as one container of cilantro. Suppose I want to give a credit limit of one hour's worth of backrub and one hour's worth of cilantro. The formula should give me the number "2", for two hours total, right?
Yes. You should end up with a total of two hours. But if you've already converted the cilantro value to ShireHours, you could just add it directly and not mess with silver at all! So much for trying to simplify it through units of Ag.. no good deed goes unpunished.
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You say that one ounce is worth two hours. So one hour is worth 1/2 ounce, correct?
I say that one ounce of silver is worth two ShireHours, and one ShireHour = 1/2 Oz. silver, correct.
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If I convert the value of the cilantro from hours to ounces, and if one hour is worth 1/2 ounce, then one-hour of cilantro is worth 1/2 ounce, right?
OK, I follow you there <sinking 'got it backward' feeling>
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Again, I'm adding one hour of each to get two hours. So converting the one-hour of cilantro to 1/2 ounce, I'm now adding one hour of backrub plus 1/2 ounce of cilantro.
There would actually be 1/2 a
truckload of cilantro.. but I think this is where I lost the cilantro scent!
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The credit limit formula is:
Xtotal = Xbackrub + (cilantro value as Oz.Ag)/2
In the right-most part of the forlmula you say to divide the ounce-value of the cilantro by 2. 1/2 divided by 2 is 1/4. Adding the 1/4 to the 1 for the backrub gives me 1 1/4 (1.25) not 2.
Obviously I'm missing something!
Nope, I think you schooled me on the subject of silver vs. cilantro. I was thinking of cilantro as a generally worthless, hated commodity,
the weight of which should be divided by two (or two hundred) to convert to ShireHours. When in fact, the cilantro value "as Ag" should be multiplied by two, not divided, to get to units of Shirehours. So that term should be (cilantro value as Ag)*2. :duh: Parentheses still in the same place.
Hey, barterer!
Can I earn a bunch of SH and build up a positive balance and then convert just part of it to silver, hence run 2 line items in my balance summary?
Then maybe spend some silver with one trading partner and spend some SH with another?
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I have more questions about using that formula, but first:
Quote from: Barterer on January 04, 2009, 09:49 PM NHFT
Quote
So when I enter a credit limit for someone else on the "new connection" page, I can choose hours or ounces, and it doesn't matter which.
Yes, provided you have no preference.
My question now is whether we should use ShHrs or OzAg. Is there any difference other than if we use ShHrs then all the numbers will be twice as large as they will be if we use OzAg?
In particular I want to make sure I don't ever wind up with one of my trading partners telling me I owe him silver. We're starting this trading circle each agreeing only to provide what we're agreeing to provide, and in none of our cases does that include silver. If it's just a term to put after the number so we know that we're not talking about actual ounces of cilantro, that's fine. But if I'm somehow agreeing that I might ever have to produce silver, then that's not okay.
What other factors should I be considering in deciding whether to choose ShHrs or OzAg when giving someone their credit limit? Thanks.
Jack: Sorry, but you can only have one displayed unit at a time, and payments you receive in the other unit will be converted and totaled up in your choice of units. So it always adds apples to apples -OR- oranges to oranges in one column. Your displayed units are easy to change though. If you log in and hit "Profile," there's a dropdown menu where you can change units.
Mackler: There is no "legal tender" or "must take and pay in" currency here, but you can enforce one unit or the other by turning off conversions on that same Profile page. If the units your partner is trying to pay do not match yours, and you've turned off conversions, they will get the message that you've not extend them enough credit, because you haven't in that particular unit. So I should qualify the "units don't matter" statement: Units are just a display preference if you and your partner have left conversion on.
Regardless of your default units, you can choose the unit to pay in at the time of payment. So if your partner says you "owe him silver" and you're dealing primarily in hours, just select silver at the time of payment, type in the number of ounces, and his being a strict "silver only" trader will not block your payment. Hours from your account will be converted to silver and spent.
It seems like the main factor you're concerned about is system-to-reality conversion. If someone wants to cash out of the system and convert all of their balance to work done or silver in hand, both the units and timeframe of compensation have to be worked out with whoever you pay. Don't forget that users can charge interest with either unit, and of course the partners have to agree to the rate.
Quote from: Barterer on January 07, 2009, 10:07 AM NHFT
Jack: Sorry, but you can only have one displayed unit at a time, and payments you receive in the other unit will be converted and totaled up in your choice of units. So it always adds apples to apples -OR- oranges to oranges in one column. Your displayed units are easy to change though. If you log in and hit "Profile," there's a dropdown menu where you can change units.
OK, so you set a "default" (actually called "Default display units") currency that you "will accept", eh? and (notes below) you "won't accept" the other if someone tries to pay you in it, right? (Oh, unless you turn on "automatic conversions", right? - actually called "Convert units as needed for payments?")
Quote from: Barterer on January 07, 2009, 10:07 AM NHFT
Mackler: There is no "legal tender" or "must take and pay in" currency here, but you can enforce one unit or the other by turning off conversions on that same Profile page. If the units your partner is trying to pay do not match yours, and you've turned off conversions, they will get the message that you've not extend them enough credit, because you haven't in that particular unit. So I should qualify the "units don't matter" statement: Units are just a display preference if you and your partner have left conversion on.
Regardless of your default units, you can choose the unit to pay in at the time of payment. So if your partner says you "owe him silver" and you're dealing primarily in hours, just select silver at the time of payment, type in the number of ounces, and his being a strict "silver only" trader will not block your payment. Hours from your account will be converted to silver and spent.
It seems like the main factor you're concerned about is system-to-reality conversion. If someone wants to cash out of the system and convert all of their balance to work done or silver in hand, both the units and timeframe of compensation have to be worked out with whoever you pay. Don't forget that users can charge interest with either unit, and of course the partners have to agree to the rate.
Right. It's the radio button on the Profile page:
Convert units as needed for payments?
* Yes (recommended)
* No
[Save Changes]
Next time you visit that page, it shows the current choice and does not revert to "Yes" despite the recommendation.