New Hampshire Underground

New Hampshire Underground => Voluntaryism/Anarchism => Topic started by: memenode on January 16, 2009, 09:20 PM NHFT

Title: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: memenode on January 16, 2009, 09:20 PM NHFT
I've been thinking about this before and I've been told that in a nutshell the "Free State Project" is nothing more than a project of moving 20K people to NH whom have libertarian or similar views. Fair enough I suppose, but in practice there are a few problems, and I invite you to correct me if you think I'm perceiving wrongly.

First, the fact that the project may have originally had its purpose limited to the above and the fact that some people would still regurgitate that theory, doesn't do anything to address how FSP is being perceived by most people in reality, if that perception differs from the original purpose.

And I feel that it does. It seems to me that most people see it as some sort of a quasi political organization. But today, I don't really need to go any further than to point to the recent undertaking by Russel Kanning, the Free State Party, as a way to completely cement the perception of the Free State Project as political in nature, due to the rather obvious terminological link.

And here comes the rub. I am an apolitical voluntaryist and I don't believe in political means of achieving liberty. I think they're self-contradictory and may even do more damage than good. They help to legitimize the very system we want to see fade away, even when such political action is done in the name of doing the opposite.

Finally, even the original statement of intent has a political bent to it:

Quote
Statement of Intent

I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

Yet my belief is that there should be no such thing as the role of government, clearly referring to the concept of government as we know it: coercive monopoly. Therefore by signing that statement of intent I in fact lied.

The case is made. What I should do then is to withdraw my membership in the FSP, even while continuing my intention to move to NH and encouraging others to move as well. Thought crossed my mind to start a Voluntaryist Lands Project once I move in.

What do you think? Am I right to reach these conclusions?
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: AntonLee on January 16, 2009, 09:32 PM NHFT
you should start something like that
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Jim Johnson on January 16, 2009, 09:43 PM NHFT
Are you going to turn in your membership card or fill out the IDWATTDWTS form.  I didn't get a membership card.

What could it possibly matter whether you call yourself a part of the FSP or VLP.

You will be called all sorts of names by people who don't understand you... or just need someone to hate.

You also seem to misunderstand the Free State Party.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 16, 2009, 09:57 PM NHFT
maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

Doesn't mention what the minimum role would be. :)

As for myself, I don't care who you "sign up" with. Your participation here has been welcome and your making it to the Shire would be great.  8)
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: memenode on January 16, 2009, 10:16 PM NHFT
Are you going to turn in your membership card or fill out the IDWATTDWTS form.  I didn't get a membership card.

I'm not sure. At least I'd stop calling myself a member and maybe request to change my status into a non-participant.

What could it possibly matter whether you call yourself a part of the FSP or VLP.

You will be called all sorts of names by people who don't understand you... or just need someone to hate.

Well I could just treat it as a meaningless formality or I could treat it as a form of a contract, a promise or an agreement. In which case it matters. If we want a society in which agreements and contracts are taken seriously then I should take them seriously.

That's what also differs associations with FSP (or VLP if there'd be one) from whatever label some people choose to see me under. I agreed to these associations, but not to these labels. What I agreed to I can also withdraw my agreement from (unless the agreement explicitly prohibits withdrawal).

You also seem to misunderstand the Free State Party.

What I do understand at this point is that it's a party to end all parties, a way of reaching those people who can only be reached through channels they consider as legitimate; government channels. In that sense it's not really a party in the classical sense. While all that sounds "good on paper", I see at least these three problems with that:

1.) For it to really appear as a proper legitimate party and be taken seriously as such it really needs to be "in the system", a real political party.
2.) That raises the corruption potential inherent in politics, not to mention decreases efficiency of the whole project.
3.) It's an attempt of using perception of government's legitimacy to say it's not legitimate. But actions speak louder than words.

maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

Doesn't mention what the minimum role would be. :)

Hmm.. true.. something to think about. Although, the implication is that there is gonna be a government, albeit that may be semantics..
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 16, 2009, 10:22 PM NHFT
take steps in the right direction and let the chips fall where they may
Kat and I have wanted to recruit raving anarchists to NH for a while now ... it is working in a very small way
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Jim Johnson on January 16, 2009, 10:29 PM NHFT
I would say yes, definitely.  Encourage your friends and relatives to come to New Hampshire as part of the VLP.   :)
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Tom Ploszaj on January 16, 2009, 11:28 PM NHFT
I've been thinking about this before and I've been told that in a nutshell the "Free State Project" is nothing more than a project of moving 20K people to NH whom have libertarian or similar views ...  What I should do then is to withdraw my membership in the FSP, even while continuing my intention to move to NH and encouraging others to move as well. Thought crossed my mind to start a Voluntaryist Lands Project once I move in.

What do you think? Am I right to reach these conclusions?

Let see?  You want to come to NH and not harm anyone?  Not take anyone's property?  Not infringe on anyone's liberty?  Well, make your plans, get your friends over here.  We are here waiting.  I do not know of one "Free Stater" that would not welcome you.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 16, 2009, 11:38 PM NHFT
how many times do these guys from long distance want us to talk them off the ledge?

Jump!
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: memenode on January 17, 2009, 12:01 AM NHFT
I am from a very long distance.. across the ocean.. and as time goes by I seem to be more and more motivated to "jump" (pushed partly by increasing oppression in this country), but its easier to jump over the ocean than it is to jump over the federal government of USA.

Two things to be done first:

1.) Increase my income to the point at which it can support the costs of moving to and living in NH. Your apartment prices are hefty. I am working on this and more. And my business is a big part of the reason I actually wanna move. The government here seems poised to be more and more snoopy, but I don't want them to steal from me. In fact if I allowed them that so far I'd be broke.

2.) Somehow.. get a tourist R-B1 (business) visa for the longest period possible (like 5 years) and use that to move over. Then when in NH try to find ways to make that stay permanent, if I care about making it "legal" in their terms by then...

Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: BillKauffman on January 17, 2009, 12:44 AM NHFT
maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

Doesn't mention what the minimum role would be. :)


The original statement of intent just said "the role of government" and was changed to "the maximum role of government" because the second president after Jason (Amanda Phillips) was a self-described "anarchist" and wanted it changed so anarchists could feel included.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Scott Roth on January 17, 2009, 01:43 AM NHFT
The FSP is just the bus.  Once you're here, you can get off of the bus...and get busy.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Puke on January 17, 2009, 07:28 AM NHFT
Yeah, no membership, dues, fees, or cards here.

You must have the wrong FSP.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Puke on January 17, 2009, 07:30 AM NHFT
I also should mention that since I moved I don't refer to myself as an FSP member/signer/whatever.

Since I've moved I'm now just a Granite Stater / Shire Loony / Dude that wants to see involuntary gov't go away.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on January 17, 2009, 07:58 AM NHFT
I would stay where I am.  I live with a couple of Polish Immigrants who say it is terrible in this country.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Kat Kanning on January 17, 2009, 07:59 AM NHFT
You should fit right in, Lloyd  :)
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on January 17, 2009, 08:04 AM NHFT
I don't understand that. I assume it is meant as an insult. Thanks
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: AntonLee on January 17, 2009, 08:16 AM NHFT
lol I love my fellow polacks.  I wanna come over for dinner because NO ONE makes good Kiszka anymore. . .not even mah momma.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 17, 2009, 08:24 AM NHFT
I would stay where I am.  I live with a couple of Polish Immigrants who say it is terrible in this country.
I forgot about that angle.
It might be best to tear up your fsp membership card and burn the US immigration paperwork
besides, there might be people here who say stuff you don't like
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: memenode on January 17, 2009, 01:11 PM NHFT
The original statement of intent just said "the role of government" and was changed to "the maximum role of government" because the second president after Jason (Amanda Phillips) was a self-described "anarchist" and wanted it changed so anarchists could feel included.

Hmm.. well I think I shouldn't withdraw then. That makes me think that the wording "maximum" was deliberately meant to include no government and if Amanda and others are fine with that I am too.

The political connotations may be a little issue though, especially if politicos complain about civilly disobedient voluntaryists associating with the FSP (which would imply they want us to withdraw and get on our own), but voluntaryists might as well say the same thing to them so it's moot.. Probably best thing is to just leave it at what it is, a competition between strategies all meant to increase freedom (even if some are arguably misled and inefficient).

Hmm... thanks for opinions.
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 17, 2009, 01:14 PM NHFT
that sentence has roped in many liberty talkers over the years
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: mackler on January 17, 2009, 01:56 PM NHFT
What do you think? Am I right to reach these conclusions?

My suggestions:

1) Withdraw your membership in the FSP.

2) Move to New Hampshire.

3) Be a Porcupine.

Being a Porc is far superior to being a Free-Stater (though the two are not mutually exclusive).  You don't have to fill out any paperwork, sign anything, or visit any website or register to become a Porcupine.  Anarchists can be Porcs, in fact many if not most are.  You won't lose your status if decide to take some political action from time-to-time.  And you can stop being a Porc whenever you want without having to "withdraw" or do anything other than changing your mind.

And don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying you should withdraw all your support from FSP, Inc.  They put on a hell of a party at PorcFest, and I encourage you to support that event by attending and participating!
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Kat Kanning on January 17, 2009, 02:15 PM NHFT
I don't understand that. I assume it is meant as an insult. Thanks

You don't also say that the country is bad??  I'm not known for being subtle.  I guess if I mean to insult you, you'll know about it  :D
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: dalebert on January 17, 2009, 05:12 PM NHFT
The language was actually broadened to include the anarchist types of which there were many. Jason created it as a political project. It didn't use to say "maximum". I believe it said "only".
Title: Re: Maybe I should withdraw my FSP membership
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 18, 2009, 05:06 AM NHFT
if you spend lots of time wordsmithing or parsing .... you just might be a Free State Project member