How to Activate the Constitutional Militia in Your Area
Copyright ? 1994 Constitution Society. May be copied with attribution for noncommercial purposes.
Once you have received and read the materials that may have accompanied this document , and have decided that the constitutional militia needs to be activated in your area, there are several things for you to do:
[] Try to find like-minded persons in your area. Ask around. Try patriotic organizations, such as the VFW and the American Legion. Sound out people at gun shows and gun stores. Ask if there is already a militia activated in your area or if anyone is considering it. Put out notices for interested persons to contact you.
[] Form a Safety Committee. Having found a few like-minded persons, meet together, share materials, and agree to issue a militia call-up.
[] Pick a suitable date, time, and place for the first muster. It should commemorate some historical event. Ideally, it should be in a highly visible location, within the municipal limits of a major community, and on public property.
[] Try to have a notable speaker or stage an event that will appeal to the media. Be creative. Although the first muster will primarily be an organizing meeting, it is also a media event and should be staged that way.
[] Publicize the muster. Post public notices in the local newspaper of record, on the courthouse public notices bulletin board, and in the newsletters of sympathetic civic groups. Mail and fax press releases to the media, especially talk radio stations. Try to get on as a guest of major talk radio programs, and call in announcements of the muster during listener call-in periods. The notices should answer the questions: Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How. Send along supporting documentation.
[] Compile patriot mailing lists. Enter them into a computer database if possible, or prepare mailing label masters for producing self-adhesive mailing labels for repeated use.
[] Prepare draft by-laws, regulations, and guidelines. Adapt them to your local situation. Make enough copies for the number of persons you expect to attend, and try to get the documents out to them in advance to save time trying to read them at the first meeting.
[] Mail announcements to as many people in your area as you can. The advertisements and radio broadcasts are important, but many people will also need something in their hands that they can read that will motivate them to attend. They need to come with some common understanding of what a militia is, how it can be organized, and what it might accomplish. You might include the draft by-laws and regulations in the mailing if you can afford the postage and copying costs.
[] Invite local officials and representatives of military and law enforcement organizations to attend. Try to involve them from the outset, to reassure them and win their support.
[] Prepare documents to be handed out at the muster. They should provide information and instruction on all the points that may be of interest and concern to the attendees. Make enough copies so that everyone can get one set, and make some extras for persons who could not attend.
[] Conduct the muster. The first order of business will be an introductory speech, followed by adoption of by-laws, regulations, and guidelines, then the election of the commander and other officers.
[] Give attendees an opportunity to speak. Let them voice their experiences, their feelings, their understanding of the situation, and their hopes. Build a resolve to recruit more participants, train them, and conduct more musters.
[] Elect a Safety Committee and a Correspondence Committee. Get the names, addresses, and phone numbers of participants. Pass out materials. Collect contributions toward the expenses of the muster and to pay for notices of future meetings. Agree on the date and place for the next meetings of the committees and perhaps of the next muster. Adjourn the muster.
[] Followup publicity. Issue press releases to the media. Visit reporters and explain what you are doing, providing them with literature. Get on talk radio and television.
[] Assist in activating the militia in neighboring counties. Encourage attendees from neighboring counties to go back and activate the militia in their own counties. Send organizing teams on a tour of the state and nation to find and motivate local leaders to do the same. Establish correspondence committees linking local militia units at all levels.
[] Set up regular training sessions and camps. Initially, each of these may need to serve a multi- county region. Shooting ranges, especially those that can simulate combat. Tactical military training. Police training. Emergency and medical training. Survival training. Seminars on constitutional law, on jury powers and duties, on investigation of official and corporate corruption and abuse, and on reform measures.
[] Set up an alert system. Establish and exercise a telephone tree. If feasible, set up neighborhood sirens or other sonic alert signals. Establish alternative communications networks, such as amateur radio, line-of-sight comm links, visual signals, and couriers. Establish links to the broadcast media, and contingency systems in the event that the media are shut down.
[] Either publish a newsletter or use an existing one. Sometimes several counties can combine their efforts in a regional newsletter. Maintain a steady flow of information and guidance to supporters.
[] Get on the Internet. Share information and plans with others across the country and around the world. Pass on the information to people not on the Internet through newsletters and handouts.
[] Recruit officials and civic leaders. Make sure all of them are informed of what you are trying to do, and make sure you know where each of them stands. Insist on strict construction of U.S. and State constitutions according to the original intent of the Framers, and make sure they know what that means. Line up both the high officials and rank and file of law enforcement and military organizations. Identify supportive judges and lawyers. Work to defeat opponents and replace them with supporters.
[] Set up regular booths at public events. Gun shows, fairs, conventions, political rallies.
[] Operate a speakers' bureau. Get your best speakers to speak before civic and other groups at every opportunity.
[] Do some fun things. Parties, picnics, and other events for the entire family.
[] Enforce the law. Investigate official and corporate corruption. Infiltrate corrupted agencies. Recruit whistleblowers. Protect witnesses, investigators, and their evidence. Get grand juries to bring indictments. Expose wrongdoing. Concentrate on vote fraud, corrupt judges and law enforcement officers, and other offenses that would not ordinarily receive official attention or that are being covered up.
[] Secure entire areas against attack. Make it infeasible for criminals of any kind to attack people in certain defensible areas, which can serve as safe havens for larger areas. Establish defensive perimeters around persons or organizations that might be particularly subject to attack. And establish mobility and secure communications in the event area security cannot be maintained.
[] Roll back unconstitutional legislation. Work on legislators. Pursue cases in court. Get abusive officials out of office. Go after the special interests that are the ultimate source of corruption and reduce their power.
Constitution Society, 6900 San Pedro #147-230, San Antonio, TX 78216. 210/224-2868.
Applicable Laws in BOLD
New Hampshire Constitution, Bill of Rights
[Art.] 2-a. [The Bearing of Arms.]. All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state.
[Art.] 24. [Militia.] A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and sure defense, of a state.
-----
Second Amendment to the United States Constiution
A Well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
-----
U.S. Code Section 311. Militia: composition and classes
? ? ? (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
? ? males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
? ? 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
? ? declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
? ? and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
? ? National Guard.
? ? ? (b) The classes of the militia are -
? ? ? ? (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
? ? ? and the Naval Militia; and
? ? ? ? (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
? ? ? the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
? ? ? Naval Militia.
A thought:
Rather than start a Militia, which might raise hackles, we could simply start a Mutual Aide Society. The MAS would be a central rallying point for Porcs and Freedom Folk in case of emergency, be it natural disaster or the collapse of society, or a severe recession, turning into a depression. I see the Society having a place in the country, where folks could move to in an emergency, maybe camp out, or build some huts. Stockpile essential supplies, self defense arms and ammunition, radios, basic tools for survival, and such. Perhaps buy a farm, rent it out to a member to live in. A working farm would be great for this. If enough people chip in, it shouldn't be tough to accomplish.
Any thoughts?
Quote from: AlanM on August 30, 2005, 10:33 PM NHFT
A thought:
? Rather than start a Militia, which might raise hackles, we could simply start a Mutual Aide Society. The MAS would be a central rallying point for Porcs and Freedom Folk in case of emergency, be it natural disaster or the collapse of society, or a severe recession, turning into a depression. I see the Society having a place in the country, where folks could move to in an emergency, maybe camp out, or build some huts. Stockpile essential supplies, self defense arms and ammunition, radios, basic tools for survival, and such. Perhaps buy a farm, rent it out to a member to live in. A working farm would be great for this. If enough people chip in, it shouldn't be tough to accomplish.
? Any thoughts?
Yes, in fact I DO have seom thoughts! I think this is a GRAND idea!
When do we start?
JP
Quote from: AlanM on August 30, 2005, 10:33 PM NHFT
A thought:
Rather than start a Militia, which might raise hackles, we could simply start a Mutual Aide Society.
I like it. The problem with a "militia" is that it's just like a Confederate flag. No matter how noble or honorable the intentions of the person waving it, it both raises hackles and shuts minds, and it attracts some very wrong sort of people.
"Militia" tends to focus on the militaristic aspects, while ignoring most everything else. When your only tool is a hammer (or rifle), every problem is a nail (or target).
I've got what is probably one of the larger gun collections among our participants here. If it ever comes time to use guns, one per participant is enough. And I don't want to be surrounded by rednecks in camouflage if that time comes -- they're obvious targets. An effective militia will be composed of long-haired computer repairmen, laughing landscapers, young mothers, old men, and teenage girls. They'll look like everyone else, instead of running around like a pseudo-military force.
Kevin
Quote from: KBCraig on August 30, 2005, 11:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on August 30, 2005, 10:33 PM NHFT
A thought:
? Rather than start a Militia, which might raise hackles, we could simply start a Mutual Aide Society.
I like it. The problem with a "militia" is that it's just like a Confederate flag. No matter how noble or honorable the intentions of the person waving it, it both raises hackles and shut minds, and it attracts some very wrong sort of people.
"Militia" tends to focus on the militaristic aspects, while ignoring most everything else. When your only tool is a hammer (or rifle), every problem is a nail (or target).
I've got what is probably one of the larger gun collections among our participants here. If it ever comes time to use guns, one per participant is enough. And I don't want to be surrounded by rednecks in camoflage if that time comes -- they're obvious targets. An effective militia will be composed of long-haired computer repairmen, laughing landscapers, young mothers, old men, and teenage girls. They'll look like everyone else, instead of running around like a pseudo-military force.
Kevin
Hear hear!
Quote from: KBCraig on August 30, 2005, 11:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on August 30, 2005, 10:33 PM NHFT
A thought:
? Rather than start a Militia, which might raise hackles, we could simply start a Mutual Aide Society.
I like it. The problem with a "militia" is that it's just like a Confederate flag. No matter how noble or honorable the intentions of the person waving it, it both raises hackles and shut minds, and it attracts some very wrong sort of people.
"Militia" tends to focus on the militaristic aspects, while ignoring most everything else. When your only tool is a hammer (or rifle), every problem is a nail (or target).
I've got what is probably one of the larger gun collections among our participants here. If it ever comes time to use guns, one per participant is enough. And I don't want to be surrounded by rednecks in camoflage if that time comes -- they're obvious targets. An effective militia will be composed of long-haired computer repairmen, laughing landscapers, young mothers, old men, and teenage girls. They'll look like everyone else, instead of running around like a pseudo-military force.
Kevin
I definitely agree with you. I foresee bad times ahead, and I would like to be with level-headed, friendly freedom folk.
Thank you for turning this around. I would be glad to be included in any talk about a MAS.
Glad to hear it, Pat!
JP
Oops! That includes action, too.
Quote from: Jim C. Perry on August 30, 2005, 11:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on August 30, 2005, 11:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on August 30, 2005, 10:33 PM NHFT
A thought:
Rather than start a Militia, which might raise hackles, we could simply start a Mutual Aide Society.
I like it. The problem with a "militia" is that it's just like a Confederate flag. No matter how noble or honorable the intentions of the person waving it, it both raises hackles and shut minds, and it attracts some very wrong sort of people.
"Militia" tends to focus on the militaristic aspects, while ignoring most everything else. When your only tool is a hammer (or rifle), every problem is a nail (or target).
I've got what is probably one of the larger gun collections among our participants here. If it ever comes time to use guns, one per participant is enough. And I don't want to be surrounded by rednecks in camoflage if that time comes -- they're obvious targets. An effective militia will be composed of long-haired computer repairmen, laughing landscapers, young mothers, old men, and teenage girls. They'll look like everyone else, instead of running around like a pseudo-military force.
Kevin
Hear hear!
I'll second that agreement.
That said, if somebody wants to start of a private, for-profit, army to compete with the government ones, I won't complain either.
tracy
Excellent idea, Alan.
I wrote this in a private message, but was asked to post it here:
I envision a mutual aid society as a club, a free association of volunteers, who commit to support one another during certain situations. I don't see any need for the MAS to own anything like land, or a farm. Such formality tends to get in the way of the "mutual" and "volunteer" part of such groups.
The White Mountain Land Club is prospecting for a large piece of land to be jointly owned and parcelled out as the member see fit. That's great, and I wish them the best, and I'd even join up if the timing were right.
I think of our theoretical Porc MAS as a homeschool group on a larger scale. Bring everyone together, and each contributes what he has to offer. One teaches art history, one teaches music appreciation, another teaches improvised explosives. One teaches algebra, one teaches chemistry, another teaches advanced hacking techniques.
If the fur flies, the rarest commodity will be trust. Building personal bonds -- and knowing who can be trusted -- is required before any of the more serious work can be undertaken.
Kevin
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/masnh/
http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/new_CERT/index.htm
JP has far too many personalities. ;D
Quote from: KBCraig on August 31, 2005, 11:46 AM NHFT
I wrote this in a private message, but was asked to post it here:
I envision a mutual aid society as a club, a free association of volunteers, who commit to support one another during certain situations. I don't see any need for the MAS to own anything like land, or a farm. Such formality tends to get in the way of the "mutual" and "volunteer" part of such groups.
The White Mountain Land Club is prospecting for a large piece of land to be jointly owned and parcelled out as the member see fit. That's great, and I wish them the best, and I'd even join up if the timing were right.
I think of our theoretical Porc MAS as a homeschool group on a larger scale. Bring everyone together, and each contributes what he has to offer. One teaches art history, one teaches music appreciation, another teaches improvised explosives. One teaches algebra, one teaches chemistry, another teaches advanced hacking techniques.
If the fur flies, the rarest commodity will be trust. Building personal bonds -- and knowing who can be trusted -- is required before any of the more serious work can be undertaken.
Kevin
Kevin, it's almost like creating a voluntary force for the spreading of a Libertarian life-style. People can either volunteer services, or announce prices for services for the things you mention above, and more.
Perhaps the ownership of a place is another, complimentary, piece of the puzzle to be entered in the same voluntary manner.
Quote from: AlanM on August 31, 2005, 11:15 PM NHFT
Kevin, it's almost like creating a voluntary force for the spreading of a Libertarian life-style. People can either volunteer services, or announce prices for services for the things you mention above, and more.
Perhaps the ownership of a place is another, complimentary, piece of the puzzle to be entered in the same voluntary manner.
I absolutely agree. And if the lottery cooperates, we'll have that land. :)
We're venturing off into Galt's Gulch territory here, where each person names --or accepts-- the price he wishes to attach to the product or idea that is his and his alone, and to offer up his product for the terms he names. And where his fellows are free to accept, reject, or counter-offer a different price.
Sometimes, receiving nothing in return except the assurance that you've equipped others to cover your back, is price enough.
Can't say that that's a bad thing. :)
Kevin
Quote from: KBCraig on September 01, 2005, 02:45 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on August 31, 2005, 11:15 PM NHFT
Kevin, it's almost like creating a voluntary force for the spreading of a Libertarian life-style. People can either volunteer services, or announce prices for services for the things you mention above, and more.
Perhaps the ownership of a place is another, complimentary, piece of the puzzle to be entered in the same voluntary manner.
I absolutely agree. And if the lottery cooperates, we'll have that land. :)
We're venturing off into Galt's Gulch territory here, where each person names --or accepts-- the price he wishes to attach to the product or idea that is his and his alone, and to offer up his product for the terms he names. And where his fellows are free to accept, reject, or counter-offer a different price.
Sometimes, receiving nothing in return except the assurance that you've equipped others to cover your back, is price enough.
Can't say that that's a bad thing. :)
Kevin
Gault's Gulch would be nice, but we do need a place of safety, if things fall apart. I definitely agree with you about helping folks be equipped to cover your back. Yet sometimes people need a little something by way of remuneration so they can pay their way in this world. Nothing wrong with that. Building a network of trust and cooperation is what it is all about.
I don't really see how the two things are of much relation. A militia is a voluntary citizen military force. When a militia is distinguished from aid agencies, because it is primarily a war making organization.
A mutual aid society sounds like a great idea, but it is in no way a militia. An MAS is not a substitute for a militia. It is way for a group to sustain itself through tough times and survive. It is not an adequate response to tyranical oppression or innitiation of force by a government or armed faction.
The purpose of these two things are quite different. A militia exists to protect and keep free the citizens that maintain it, this is true, but as I said this means putting oneself in harms way by engaging an enemy.
I am not arguing that modern militias should not help in a non-combatant capacity when disaster strikes. In fact I believe that this is a most important role of a modern militia; it does what most people think the national guard is there for. I am arguing that to be considered a militia, an organization must be at its core, a combat ready force.
I'm not trying to torpedo the idea guys, I just wanted to make my position on what a militia is clear. In the end, if one is concerned about the backlash involved in forming/maintaining a militia, then it is best one not belong to one. If someone doesn't have the stones to say "I belong to a militia because it is necessary to defend our liberty, and our liberty is worth defending even until death", then that is someone who will be of absolutely no use beside me when the bullets are flying.
"Live Free or Die"
You might check out the freedom friend's tuath. Same basic idea. http://www.freewebs.com/freedomfriendstuath/
Quote from: lawofattraction on March 10, 2006, 08:35 AM NHFT
Quote from: Jim C. Perry on August 31, 2005, 02:16 PM NHFT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/masnh/
I joined this group today but it appears to be dead. Is there still any interest in this idea?
I think that this is one of Jim Perry's 1000 yahoo groups.
The biggest drawback to the tuath is the lack of proximity. But we very definately help each other. The focus has to be on people and relationships, not problem resolution. The key is voluntary association. I like intentional communities. It would bring proximity and strengthen ZAP based relationships.
Cathleen
There is also the Free Talk Live AMPers. We help each other but are not swore to do so. For example, I sent Tracy tons of music and another AMPer a cool FSP magnet that I made. An AMPer gave me advice on mints when I was looking to buy some metals and sent me a FSM sticker. Another agreed to teach me how to snow board and another agreed to hand over around $100. Another send me a FSP DVD. And I made up a FSP Flyer for another AMPer.
Heck, even the people on this forum help each other all of the time.
Mutual Aid society is a very good idea --- this is why I believe this group has a chance of accomplishing goals.
Now this idea --- is it something that enough of us here believe in, to make happen. How about a place where one can list their skills and set up interactive meetings ...... like others have mentioned -- I too believe rough times are soon to be on us. It would be helpful to get something going before crissis time. ------- The idea about some farm land or a wood lot seems like worthy goals. It wouldn't hurt to intergrate a rifle range and meeting house ---- when people help each other, labor, meet, accomplish and have fun --- the bonds grow and we are all the better off......
One ruggard individualist can do alot but a bunch of them can do emense things........... I'm willing to join a revolution of new/old ideas---------chris
Quote from: lawofattraction on April 25, 2006, 01:14 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on September 01, 2005, 02:45 AM NHFTAnd if the lottery cooperates, we'll have that land. :)
Too bad you don't have a nickel for every time a libertarian talks about winning the lottery.
Hey, if I just had a nickel for every time
I have talked about winning the lottery! ;D
A few years ago, I joined a MAS. I got one alert, which told of a potential need for help, but a request for assistance was never sent. I decided that it would be a good idea because a friend of mine was being forced off his land by the town he lived in without any compensation. I offered to help him put up a resistance, but he didn't want to risk bloodshed, so he just left without a fight and moved to Montana. I lost the information that I had about that MAS, but they have my number, and can get ahold of me if I'm needed.
My college fraternity, Theta Chi, pledges a helping hand to those who need it. The chapter I graduated from has been inactive for a decade, but the alumni still gather a couple of times a year, and we keep in touch through a mailing list and web forum that I own.
Just a few weeks ago, we received word that one of our brothers has been suffering serious health problems of his own, and his wife was in ICU. There's been a tremendous outpouring, even though we're a very small group. The brother and his family might still have to watch expenses, but they won't have to worry about medical bills or lost wages, and this is from a network of less than 100 alumni who stay in touch, many of them sporadically, and most of whom are not wealthy at all.
Social networking and true friendships really count when aid is needed. Whether it's a job, moral support, or cash in a crisis, people are more likely to give to those they know and trust.
I'll be leaving Thursday morning to engage in more of that socializing, at our annual informal reunion. When I was a pledge in Spring 1982, we had the first "Richland Rampage" at a primitive wilderness camping area in the Ozark Mountains of north-central Arkansas. This weekend will be the 25th Annual Richland Rampage, and we will continue our tradition of pretending we're still 20 years old and bulletproof, while roughing it and consuming large quantities of beer. Kinda like PorcFest without kids. ;D
On my way to PorcFest, I'll be visiting the graves of Theta Chi's founders, since this year is the 150th anniversary of our founding. Frederick Norton Freeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Norton_Freeman) was born in Claremont, NH, and is buried in Plainfield. Arthur Chase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Chase) was born in Bellows Falls, VT, and became publisher of The National Eagle, a newspaper in Freeman's hometown of Claremont. Chase is buried in Claremont.
Kevin
Count me in once I've moved. (next summer or the following)
I've been thinking about starting something along these lines myself.
In particular, hunting, fishing, foraging, building, target practice, gardening, cooking, and fighting (along with getting piss drunk and having some fireside chats if you'll excuse my foul language).
Could we use a barter (tax-free) system of exchanging services and goods?
Fourthgeek buys 10 pounds of beef from FSP-Rebel using his barter-card, costing him 30 barter-points. Fourthgeek has 20 barter-points on his card, and now owes the bartering society 10 barter-points (or an equivalent amount of dollars/gold?)
In return, FSP-Rebel gains 30 barter-points on his own database entry.
Sticking with a monetarist policy, the total number of barter points would slowly increase as our bartering economy grows.
This could be a reliable way to start our own independent economy/currency, as well, in the case that bad shit (tm) goes down.
Quote from: fourthgeek on May 20, 2006, 02:52 PM NHFT
Could we use a barter (tax-free) system of exchanging services and goods?
Fourthgeek buys 10 pounds of beef from FSP-Rebel using his barter-card, costing him 30 barter-points. Fourthgeek has 20 barter-points on his card, and now owes the bartering society 10 barter-points (or an equivalent amount of dollars/gold?)
In return, FSP-Rebel gains 30 barter-points on his own database entry.
Sticking with a monetarist policy, the total number of barter points would slowly increase as our bartering economy grows.
This could be a reliable way to start our own independent economy/currency, as well, in the case that bad shit (tm) goes down.
Sorry but the Infernal Revenue Service wants its due, even if you barter.
Topic 420 - Bartering Income (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html)
Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services exchanged must be included in the income of both parties.
Income from bartering is taxable in the year in which you receive the goods or services. Generally, you report this income on Form 1040, Schedule C (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040sc.pdf) (PDF), Profit or Loss from Business. If you failed to report bartering income on returns you have already filed, you should correct this by filing an amended return, Form 1040X (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040x.pdf) (PDF), for each year involved. For information on amended returns, refer to Topic 308 (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc308.html).
A barter exchange is any person or organization with members or clients that contract with each other (or with the barter exchange) to jointly trade or barter property or services. The term does not include arrangements that provide solely for the informal exchange of similar services on a noncommercial basis.
The Internet has provided a medium for new growth in the bartering exchange industry. This growth prompts the following reminder: Barter exchanges are required to file Form 1099?B for all transactions unless certain exceptions are met. Refer to Barter Exchanges for additional information on this subject.
If you are in a business or trade, you may deduct any costs you incurred to perform the work that was bartered. If you exchanged property or services through a barter exchange, you should receive a Form 1099-B (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1099b.pdf) (PDF), Proceeds from Broker and Barter Exchange Transactions. The Form 1099?B or other statement generally will show the value of any cash, property, services, credits, or scrip you received from the exchange during the year. The IRS will also receive the same information.
If you receive income from bartering, you may be required to make estimated tax payments. Refer to Topic 355 (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc355.html) for additional information.
Additional examples of bartering, and information on how to report the income, are described in Publication 525 (http://www.irs.gov/publications/p525/index.html), Taxable and Nontaxable Income.
I'm interested.
the IRS may want its cut, be we certainly won't have to pay other taxes (sales, business, etc.)
There's also what appears to be an untested loophole in the tax code:
"donations".
I've seen churches on TV demanding $50 donations, so that you may in return recieve a green prayer cloth (apparently required to enter heaven these days.)
Easy.
For example, every woman that has ever existed wants me to bend her over a table, even though she may not know I exist. See?
No, quite honestly, we have to prepare for worst-case scenarios, as that is part of the whole idea of a mutual aid society. In the worst case scenario that the IRS did bug us, we'd need to have some sort of a legal defense, or minimize our losses.
But quite honestly, how you report your taxes is not the business of the mutual aid society or the barter exchange. That's your own business.
Be very careful! IRS doesn't ignore this. The requirements are spelled out and any organized bartering is investigated. Web based would be a huge red flag. File drawer records, less obvious until someone in the program decides to admit to it in an audit or something, then the program is busted.
Cathleen
Again, I was intending to make this as legally sound as possible. If individual members don't follow the proper tax procedures, that is one thing. But as long as the system itself operates legally, they won't have a basis to shut us all down with.
Does anybody know the legality of accepting donations to avoid taxation? Do we just need to set up a nonprofit organization/church to do it?
Count me in
For the system to operate legally, it must report transactions to the irs and provide irs forms to all participants.
Cathleen
What the government gang considers "legal" is every entity paying lots of taxes.
And if you try to better your position to pay less, they tighten the screws, I mean rules.
Cathleen
Quote from: russellkanning on May 22, 2006, 08:55 AM NHFT
What the government gang considers "legal" is every entity paying lots of taxes.
Yep. Law is just a bunch of words written down on paper by strangers. I sure didn't consent to their rules.
Which Constitution are you talking about?
Quote
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
US Constitution says our government can lay and collect taxes.
They needed the 16th amendment to collect income tax, though, so if we could just get rid of that..
Quote from: fourthgeek on May 24, 2006, 12:42 PM NHFT
They needed the 16th amendment to collect income tax, though, so if we could just get rid of that..
It already says that Congress can collect taxes (and the income tax is still a tax ;-) ) so the 16th amendment is redundant.
16th Amendment
In 1895, in the Supreme Court case of Pollock v Farmer's Loan and Trust (157 U.S. 429), the Court disallowed a federal income tax. The tax was designed to be an indirect tax, which would mean that states need not contribute portions of a whole relative to its census figures. The Court, however, ruled that the income tax was a direct tax and subject to apportionment. This was the last in a series of conflicting court decisions dating back to the Civil War. Between 1895 and 1909, when the amendment was passed by Congress, the Court began to back down on its position, as it became clear not only to accountants but to everyone that the solvency of the nation was in jeopardy. In a series of cases, the definition of "direct tax" was modified, bent, twisted, and coaxed to allow more taxation efforts that approached an income tax.
Finally, with the ratification of the 16th Amendment, any doubt was removed. The text of the Amendment makes it clear that though the categories of direct and indirect taxation still exist, any determination that income tax is a direct tax will be irrelevant, because taxes on incomes are explicitly to be treated as indirect. The Congress passed the Amendment on July 12, 1909, and it was ratified on February 3, 1913 (1,302 days).
It is my belief that everything that is happening today is explicitely allowed and even encouraged by the United States Constitution.
Here is the "government can do whatever the hell they want" clause:
United States Constitution
Article I.
Section 8.
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
The Founders never meant for this clause to be used as it is today. They understood that it could be abused, but the original intent was to extrapolate on Congress' foregoing seventeen powers. If it was meant to be used as it is today, this would've nullified the concept of federalism and quite a few of the (amendments) in the bill of rights. So, essentially this clause has been bastardized.
Quote from: FSP-Rebel on May 25, 2006, 02:32 PM NHFT
The Founders never meant for this clause to be used as it is today.
How do you know what they did or didn't mean?
Lex what about these:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
The way I see it is that the "founding fathers" created only the Constitution so when judging it you cannot also take into account the Amendments. Without the Amendments looking strictly at the constitution you can see that the founding fathers were not the nicest guys around. Everything that the revolutionaries fought for and enumerated in the Declaration of Independence was obliterated by the Constitution and later patched up by Amendments to keep people quiet. There are just so many contradictions between the Constitution and the Amendments that you can't look at it as a single document. When one part says that the government can do whatever the heck they want and another part says that the government can't infringe the rights of people, how do you know which one takes precedent? Whome do you think the Constitution sides with, the Government or the People? Does the first amendment allow us to say whatever we want on the radio or does the constitution allow our government to keep tranquility by making sure nobody says anything too controversial? The Constitution and the Amendments are so vague that it can easily be interpreted by opposing parties to support both of their sides.
Anyways, this is getting offtopic! :blush:
I'm much more interested in the MAS than the Constitution anyways! ;D
I'm no tax expert, but if, in this barter system, everything is called a gift, is that a good loophole?
According to the Advocates for Self-Government, Sec. 102 (A) of the Internal Revenue Code says: "Gross income does not include the value of property acquired by gift, bequest, devise, or inheritance."
I think the barter idea is a great one.
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on May 25, 2006, 11:45 PM NHFT
Anyways, this is getting offtopic! :blush:
I'm much more interested in the MAS than the Constitution anyways! ;D
I have a MAS-36 and a MAS-36/51 for sale.
You
were speaking of
Manufacture Armes de Saint-Etienne, right? ;D
Kevin
Quote from: Braddogg on May 26, 2006, 11:54 PM NHFT
I'm no tax expert, but if, in this barter system, everything is called a gift, is that a good loophole?
According to the Advocates for Self-Government, Sec. 102 (A) of the Internal Revenue Code says: "Gross income does not include the value of property acquired by gift, bequest, devise, or inheritance."
I think the barter idea is a great one.
If any the totals of all the gifts from any one person to any other person is more then $50,000 for any given year (or whatever if currently is.) the giver could owe gift taxes.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 27, 2006, 01:19 AM NHFT
If any the totals of all the gifts from any one person to any other person is more then $50,000 for any given year (or whatever if currently is.) the giver could owe gift taxes.
Tracy
"If you give people a lot of money or property, you might have to pay a federal gift tax. But most gifts are not subject to the gift tax. For instance, you can give up to the annual exclusion amount ($11,000 in 2005) to a person, every year, without facing any gift taxes, and without the recipient owing an income tax on the gifts. And you can give up to $1,000,000 in gifts, total, in your lifetime, before you start owing the gift tax."
http://www.turbotax.com/articles/TheGiftTax.html
Perhaps, with the death of the death tax, the gift tax, which, according to the TurboTax link, is derived from trying to close a loophole in the estate tax, will fall as well.
So ours would be something like a gift exchange, with a central body keeping track of the value (in Santapoints) that each person has bequeathed through the system, and thus how much is owed (in good will) by each person.
fourthgeek: hey Braddog, i'd sure like that package of hot dog buns.
braddog: take it. it's my gift to you. just let me register this with the gift exchange program. how does 30 santapoints sound?
fourthgeek: sure. my username is xxkissesxx.
braddog: *clickity type type* or *swipity scan scan*
fourthgeek: i had 200 santapoints, now i have 170 santapoints.
braddog: i owed 20 santapoints, now i have positive 10 santapoints. good thing, or else i might have been kicked out of the entire mutual aid program, been shunned by the community, and lose access to other Cool Features (tm).
i would have a lower limit on how much can be "owed", so that a minimum of loss would be sustained.
One problem I forsee is that since a gift is a gift, it cannot be repossessed by the mutual aid society or even the government. that is, unless we redefine gift within the scope of our mutual aid society.
Quote from: Pat McCotter on May 27, 2006, 07:07 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 27, 2006, 01:19 AM NHFT
If any the totals of all the gifts from any one person to any other person is more then $50,000 for any given year (or whatever if currently is.) the giver could owe gift taxes.
Tracy
"If you give people a lot of money or property, you might have to pay a federal gift tax. But most gifts are not subject to the gift tax. For instance, you can give up to the annual exclusion amount ($11,000 in 2005) to a person, every year, without facing any gift taxes, and without the recipient owing an income tax on the gifts. And you can give up to $1,000,000 in gifts, total, in your lifetime, before you start owing the gift tax."
http://www.turbotax.com/articles/TheGiftTax.html
Thanks for clearing that up Pat :)
Tracy