New Hampshire Underground

Well, the 3 scholarships have been mailed out, and we refunded the $50 application fee for the 4th applicant.

I received a letter in our PO Box today.? The IRS has rejected our application for 501c3 tax-deductible charity status.

Their grounds for rejection are:

-"Your purpose is simply to provide an avenue for individuals to pursue a personal preference of pursuing an education under the pretext of providing scholarships that are meant to be subsidized by tax deductible contributions.? Pursuing a personal preference (or preferred lifestyle) is almost akin to pursuing a private benefit which in itself is proscribed under section 501c3.? Therefore it is our initial determination that your purpose as described, does not appear to qualify as an exempt purpose under the exempt provisions of section 501c3 because of its non-exclusive charitable and/or educational intent.? However, if our understanding of your intended purpose based on our analysis as presented above is incorrect, please provide and explain your reasons."

-A random selection process is "not an acceptable method of determining award recipients."

-They want more info about the recipients.

-They want background info about the members of the Board.

-They want info about any business relationships between the Board and the officers.

Does any of that surprise you? I wonder if many who understand our wanting to encourage "personal preference" are not donating because of the lack of 501c3 status? Maybe there are loads of middle of the roaders who wouldn't hesitate to comply with those requirements.

But I don't see them moving to NH for freedom. We, who want to do something and aren't middle of the roaders, are a little nauseated by the prospect.

I sent another small check today. I can set up a paypal scheduled payment now. I don't care about tax deductibility.

Cathleen

Quote from: cathleeninnh on September 02, 2005, 02:20 PM NHFT
Does any of that surprise you? I wonder if many who understand our wanting to encourage "personal preference" are not donating because of the lack of 501c3 status? Maybe there are loads of middle of the roaders who wouldn't hesitate to comply with those requirements.

But I don't see them moving to NH for freedom. We, who want to do something and aren't middle of the roaders, are a little nauseated by the prospect.

I sent another small check today. I can set up a paypal scheduled payment now. I don't care about tax deductibility.

Cathleen

It was surprising initially, but not in retrospect.? I agree that 501c3 status is a request to be subsidized by tax deductions.

I personally do not want 501c3 status anymore, but the Board will have to discuss it.? Hopefully there will be no split in the Board like there was with the FSP during their 501c3 discussions.? If we decide to be strict to our principles, we really should not have applied for this status in the first place, and we definitely should not pursue this further.

We need to discuss whether our principles should override the "greater good" of the charity.

Thank you both very much for your support, Cathleen.  :)

The following are a dumb questions?

Do the recipient of the schoolarship fund have to report it as income?
If you get a 501c3 status, would the recipient have to report it as income?

My 2 cents..... Do not involve the IRS, or the gov in any way shape or form.  Aint none of their buisness.  >:(

Quote from: Otosan on September 02, 2005, 02:49 PM NHFT
Do the recipient of the schoolarship fund have to report it as income?
If you get a 501c3 status, would the recipient have to report it as income?

Good questions.

Nope, we are still an NH Non-Profit, so we don't need to pay taxes and the recipients don't report it as income as far as I'm aware.

Bugger 'em :)

This is a good tool for appeals ...... "We are so dangerous to government control that they rejected our 501c3 application"

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 02, 2005, 01:52 PM NHFT
-They want more info about the recipients.

-They want background info about the members of the Board.

-They want info about any business relationships between the Board and the officers.

-Evil
-Evil
-What would it matter .... it is not like all the money ends up in the pockets of the officers like the United Way .... you don't get a penny :o

What about all the 501c3 private schools? ..... that you can donate to and they provide .... heaven forbid ..... personal preferences

The stinkin government figures that it is "subsidizing" anything it doesn't tax to death.

>:(

What they said doesn't even make sense...weird doublespeak.  I'm leaning toward avoiding the government involvement.  People have said they'd give large donations if we're 501c3, and we can't solicit businesses too well without it.

I do not understand the statement by the IRS employee.  The notice certainly does not seem clearly written.  Aren't 'all' scholarship Funds doing what we're doing, and aren't they 501c3 approved?  I don't know.

I suppose the only people that really understand the implications of things like this are the lawyers who specialize in it.

I think we should no longer pursue this and move on.

Brian Sullivan

Quote from: FSPinNY on September 02, 2005, 11:06 PM NHFT
I do not understand the statement by the IRS employee.  The notice certainly does not seem clearly written.  Aren't 'all' scholarship Funds doing what we're doing, and aren't they 501c3 approved?  I don't know.

I suppose the only people that really understand the implications of things like this are the lawyers who specialize in it.

Well, there's your difference. LSF didn't pay a specialty lawyer $10,000-50,000 to submit the exact same information.

The denial was nonsensical. Pack up, move on. I understand that many people want to make (deductible) donations to 501(c)(3) charities, but honestly... you don't want to count on anyone who lets deductibility be the deciding factor.

Which reminds me... I have been meaning to send a donation. I file, but I don't itemize. I don't care about the tax impact. The check will soon be on its way.

Kevin

Thanks so much, Kevin!

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 02, 2005, 02:33 PM NHFT

Quote from: cathleeninnh on September 02, 2005, 02:20 PM NHFT
Does any of that surprise you? I wonder if many who understand our wanting to encourage "personal preference" are not donating because of the lack of 501c3 status? Maybe there are loads of middle of the roaders who wouldn't hesitate to comply with those requirements.

But I don't see them moving to NH for freedom. We, who want to do something and aren't middle of the roaders, are a little nauseated by the prospect.

I sent another small check today. I can set up a paypal scheduled payment now. I don't care about tax deductibility.

Cathleen

It was surprising initially, but not in retrospect.  I agree that 501c3 status is a request to be subsidized by tax deductions.

I personally do not want 501c3 status anymore, but the Board will have to discuss it.  Hopefully there will be no split in the Board like there was with the FSP during their 501c3 discussions.  If we decide to be strict to our principles, we really should not have applied for this status in the first place, and we definitely should not pursue this further.

We need to discuss whether our principles should override the "greater good" of the charity.

Thank you both very much for your support, Cathleen.  :)

Well, the only thing that makes me sad is that my employer would have matched any donation up to $250 if you had 501c3 status :(  Oh well.

I just got a new Full-Time job, maybe these people aren't so picky but I kind-of thing they are. :(

Tracy

well mike it looks like your instincts against working within the system continue to be vindicated.

BTW how are those $10 worth of liberty dollars I donated doing? :)

Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 03, 2005, 09:29 PM NHFT
well mike it looks like your instincts against working within the system continue to be vindicated.

BTW how are those $10 worth of liberty dollars I donated doing? :)

Thanks for the donation!   8)

We're still trying to redeem it for cash.  I believe Tony, our Treasurer, has written letters and called several Liberty Dollar people multiple times.

Nobody wants to give him cash for it.  We'll probably end up cashing it in at a coin shop for the $6.50 worth of silver.

Quote from: Scott Roth on September 04, 2005, 03:07 PM NHFT
How many do you have?? I'll buy them from you.

Really?  Thanks!

Please send your address and contact info to Tony:  tonyl@lsfund.org

Whoa! Do I sense a little negativity here?? Send me the Liberty Dollar.? I'll send you 10 bucks fiat and postage.

Lloyd Danforth
C/O 31 Norfolk St.
Hartford, CT 06112

Thanks, Lloyd!  I'll send your contact info to Tony!  :)

Maybe in the future you could just split the silver amongst the families and give it on top of the $1000 paper money. :D

"LSF Rejects IRS!"  That would be a nice headline.   8)

We're considering not pursuing 501c3 status any further.

While I do not think that we should persue this further, I do think that the 501c3 staus would have hugely impacted the amount of donations to the Scholarship Fund and the Endowment Fund.  We'll be a much smaller organization without it, but maybe that's OK. 

Believe me, I want every legal tax break I can get  I think there are millions of libertarian individuals and small business owners who feel the same way.  I want to reduce my tax burden, and if I can do that AND support an organization that I support, all the better.  I also donate to individuals and organizations and receive no tax deduction, because I choose to.

You might have something there Mike with the "LSF Rejects IRS!".  At the very least, maybe a statement on the donation page and in our brochure where the usual tax-deduction statement goes that explains our position on not persuing the 501c3 status.  That may push someone who wants that tax-deduction over to donating, or even donating more.

Brian

Well people that do matching/fund type things (like people's employers, etc.) typically require that statis, because that's exactly what they use it for -- tax breaks.

Oh well, I can understand. And maybe it is better this way. At least the government can't dictate what you can and can't say and stuff now.

How many people that go to government schools are in New Hampshire?

How much money would the Liberty Scholorship fund need, to get everybody in New Hampshire out of government schools? Maybe it'd be enough.

Tracy

When we get the Arts Festival/School up and running we can always ask for donations to the LSF, maybe even have a small portion of each ticket be donated to it. Benefits concerts and performances will be possible also.

We're moving along. The first performances will be next summer.  8)

Porcs and Freedom supporters who have retail businesses should be encouraged to have collection cans on their counters for dropping spare change. It really adds up fast.

Quote from: AlanM on September 04, 2005, 09:37 PM NHFT
When we get the Arts Festival/School up and running we can always ask for donations to the LSF, maybe even have a small portion of each ticket be donated to it. Benefits concerts and performances will be possible also.

Thanks Alan!  Tne LSF will be fine.  The Endowment is the key to its long-term success.  We're sowing the initial $eeds now!   ;D

Brian

Believe we have lost at least one, $1000 donation because of our lack of  501c3  status.  Not being able
to gain 501c3 status will greatly reduce the ability to raise capital, that's a given.

Really believe the BoD needs to decide...You want to really get serious about raising money, and use the tools
available, or stand on principle, and get a couple bucks floating in here and there?

Know anything save dishonor gets my vote....More money, more kids get educated out from under the governments
web.

My feeling is that if people put tax deductions ahead of freedom, then they are not serious about freedom.

Well that may be so in some cases Alan, but let's not forget real world too!

One example, the $1000 donation I mention. ?The dollars are in a retirement account, and only way the
money can be released with out penalty...per 59 1/2 10%, plus being charged as regular income to the
donor is being a 501c3 charity. ?Hey...Do the Math! ??? ?Play the system to our benefit! ;)

Quote from: Scott Roth on September 04, 2005, 10:12 PM NHFT
See, I'm one of those tht doesn't care about tax deductions.? I don't pay any taxes anyway, so it won't hurt me any.? This way, I will have more of my income to devote to causes like the LSF.?

Cool, so when can we expect your $1000. check! :)

Dave, if the LSF should get 501c3 status, I will not donate again, nor will I encourage others to donate, such as through the Arts Festival. I am sick and tired of people begging the Government for special interests.
Now do the math Dave.

I was President of the Board of Directors of the New England Shakespeare Festival when they decided to seek government grants, at which point I resigned.

Consistency of action and thought is important. Working outside the system can be more difficult, but not impossible. Having a Scholarship Fund whose goal is pulling students out of the system by using the system? It doesn't ring true to me.

trying to figure out how to not pay taxes is a little different from "supporting the system."

Tracy

Tracy, I said using the system, not "supporting" the system.

Quote from: AlanM on September 04, 2005, 10:18 PM NHFT
Dave, if the LSF should get 501c3 status, I will not donate again, nor will I encourage others to donate, such as through the Arts Festival. I am sick and tired of people begging the Government for special interests.
Now do the math Dave.

We have lost several donors and gained several enemies by applying for 501c3 status in the first place.? I say we drop it and get creative with fundraising.

Tracy, we would need $200,000,000 per year in income to give $1,000 to the family of each New Hampshire child to help them get out of public schools.? No amount of tax deductions will raise that much money, as Arizona has proven.? ;)

Quote from: davemincin on September 04, 2005, 10:13 PM NHFT
Well that may be so in some cases Alan, but let's not forget real world too!

One example, the $1000 donation I mention. ?The dollars are in a retirement account, and only way the
money can be released with out penalty...per 59 1/2 10%, plus being charged as regular income to the
donor is being a 501c3 charity. ?Hey...Do the Math! ??? ?Play the system to our benefit! ;)

What is the real world? the IRS tax code ...... the government schools ...... begging the government for non-profit status

Very few people know that even if you are playing the IRSs games ..... that an organization doesn't have to be a 501c3 for your payment to be considered a charitable contribution.

But then again most people don't know that the whole income tax is smoke and mirrors

Choose your reality ..... I choose real people helping others escape the evil government

If we can't or won't jump thru the required hoops to get this status, what is the point of this argument?
How much of the money the LSF raises is from large donations people are likely to deduct and how much from dollars thrown into a jar, barely remembered much less deducted?
Could, as Russell implies, a donor who is not donating an insanely large amount, take the deduction and not get caught?
I have some ideas that involve making and selling things to raise money for the LSF, which seems to me a reasonable way to increase it's coffers.

If everyone who supports or participates in the FSP were to contribute an average of $100 oer year, there would be at least $700,000. Add to that activities designed to raise money such as Lloyd describes, and the total would be closer to $800K. That is a strong statement for altrnative education.

Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on September 05, 2005, 06:23 AM NHFT
If we can't or won't jump thru the required hoops to get this status, what is the point of this argument?

Good point.  ;)

Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on September 05, 2005, 06:23 AM NHFT
How much of the money the LSF raises is from large donations people are likely to deduct and how much from dollars thrown into a jar, barely remembered much less deducted?

Only one or two donors give more than $50 at a time.

Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on September 05, 2005, 06:23 AM NHFT
Could, as Russell implies, a donor who is not donating an insanely large amount, take the deduction and not get caught?

I don't know, but it's not our responsibility to know that.  Deducting a donation on a donor's taxes is the choice of each donor.  As an organization, we do not encourage people to break the law.

Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on September 05, 2005, 06:23 AM NHFT
I have some ideas that involve making and selling things to raise money for the LSF, which seems to me a reasonable way to increase it's coffers.

That's a great idea!  What type of products or services do you have in mind?  :)

Quote from: AlanM on September 05, 2005, 06:30 AM NHFT
If everyone who supports or participates in the FSP were to contribute an average of $100 oer year, there would be at least $700,000. Add to that activities designed to raise money such as Lloyd describes, and the total would be closer to $800K. That is a strong statement for altrnative education.

I openly encourage everyone to give $15 per month.  We can do a much better job asking for money than we have been doing.  Kat and Russell's table is the first to gather donations from non-FSP, non-LP, non-NH Underground individuals.  It's obviously possible to do this type of fundraising as well - they're doing it!  :) :) :)  They lead very well by their example!

How can we go about getting all 7,000 FSP members to donate $10/month to the LSF, or even just $10?  I believe a rejection of 501c3 status will definitely help us in this regard.

What about the "income" of the LSF? Doesn't the I R S want their cut?? :(

Quote from: patmccotter on September 05, 2005, 02:09 PM NHFT
What about the "income" of the LSF? Doesn't the I R S want their cut?? :(

Good point.

Looking into this further, the fed still wants its taxes even if we're a tax-exempt non-profit corporation at the state level.? Thus, we do need to apply for a special federal status as well.? sigh

However, rather than a tax-deductible 501c3 charity, we must apply to become only a 501c4 tax-exempt non-profit so at least we won't have to pay federal taxes.? ?:(

Look in here for info about 501c4 requirements:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p557.pdf

I thought state non-profit status made us exempt from all state and federal income taxes.? :(? This is really annoying.? :(

Argh, this is driving me insane.  So many problems with solutions that conflict with my conscience.  So little time.   :o

Upon further thought, I believe we were required to file federal income taxes last year. ::)

sigh

Oh yeah, BTW, we are required to respond to the IRS' letter by TOMORROW!!!   :o :o :o

Isn't it nice of them to give us 3 whole days to decide from the time we receive the letter?   :(

So we'd better come up with a plan right now.

Hmmmm... you know what we COULD do?? We could change into a non-charity with no bank account or income at all.

We could find people who would like financial help to remove their children from government schools, put a profile of them up on our website, and encourage people to send donations to them and notify us about it so we can track how much was raised.

All small gifts to individuals are tax-exempt under all tax laws that I'm aware of.  >:D

Is this EVIL or what?

>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

Isn't it ironic - you need permission NOT to make a profit.

The Endowment Fund is generating income and will continue to as long as it exists.  As I am not an accountant or a lawyer, I cannot advise us about the taxation of the Fund or the Endowment.  It seems like we need professional advice, but I don't know anyone to ask.  I did ask my professional contacts here in NY previously, but they were not familiar with not for profits and, of course, NH law.

This is indeed frustrating.   ???

I'll bet a coordinated and orchestrated donation "scheme" would raise a red flag as well   ::)

Brian

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 05, 2005, 03:05 PM NHFT
Hmmmm... you know what we COULD do?? We could change into a non-charity with no bank account or income at all.

We could find people who would like financial help to remove their children from government schools, put a profile of them up on our website, and encourage people to send donations to them and notify us about it so we can track how much was raised.

All small gifts to individuals are tax-exempt under all tax laws that I'm aware of.? >:D

Is this EVIL or what?

>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

"You may give up to $11,000 a year in cash or assets to an unlimited number of people each year without incurring Gift Tax liability -- so long as there are no strings attached."
"In actuality, the payment of Gift Taxes is relatively rare, thanks to the annual exclusion, and the unlimited marital and charitable deduction."
http://law.freeadvice.com/tax_law/gift_tax_law/gift_taxes.htm

"Taxable gifts generate a Gift Tax. But Gift Tax is not due until you give away over $1,000,000 in your lifetime."
http://law.freeadvice.com/tax_law/gift_tax_law/gift_become_taxable.htm

"Can I pay someone?s medical or education expenses and not be taxed for making a gift?
Yes. In addition to the $11,000 ($10,000 in 2001) annual Gift Tax exclusion, there is a 100% exclusion when you make direct payments FOR someone?s medical bills or tuition expenses. Both the medical and educational exclusions are allowed without regard to the relationship?so the recipient need not be a close relative or your dependent. The payments must be made directly to the medical care provider or the educational institution."
http://law.freeadvice.com/tax_law/gift_tax_law/pay_medical_expenses_tax.htm

This is excellent! ?Nothing we do will be taxed or tracked by the government in any way. ?No forms will need to be filed by anyone. ?Donations will not be taxed. ?We will not even need a government-approved tradename to operate. ? :) :) :) :) :) :)

>:D

Quote from: FSPinNY on September 05, 2005, 03:36 PM NHFT
The Endowment Fund is generating income and will continue to as long as it exists.? As I am not an accountant or a lawyer, I cannot advise us about the taxation of the Fund or the Endowment.? It seems like we need professional advice, but I don't know anyone to ask.? I did ask my professional contacts here in NY previously, but they were not familiar with not for profits and, of course, NH law.

This is indeed frustrating.? ????

I'll bet a coordinated and orchestrated donation "scheme" would raise a red flag as well? ?::)

Brian

People beg for money all the time, as individuals, and legally pay no taxes on it.? A few people have created websites begging for help with their tuition, and have paid no taxes on the tens of thousands of dollars they receive in the form of tiny donations from people browsing the web.

How would it raise a red flag if we were to organize something similar for individuals?

We can even have an "endowment fund" aspect to this.? "Donor" organizations and individuals set aside a personal "endowment fund", an investment vehicle that will generate income.? They vow to give all income from these investments to individuals for their tuition.? ?We track the amount of the promised endowment funds of the donors.? Would it be possible for someone to gift cash from the sale of a stock, for example, to an individual for their tuition expenses, without incurring taxes when selling the stock?

Or maybe they could directly gift part of the stock to the family without incurring taxes!? That is, the amount of stock that pertains to how much has been gained in investment income.? That would be even better.? But wouldn't the recipients pay taxes when selling the stock?

This part may be more difficult, or it may not be.? ????? Any idea about this, Brian?

Quote from: AlanM on September 04, 2005, 11:14 PM NHFT
Tracy, I said using the system, not "supporting" the system.

You know, you people who equate "tax breaks" with government support almost remind me of those liberals who can't tell the difference betweem businesses figuring ways to keep more of their own money, and corporate welfare.

It really is nonsence to say that 501(c)3 is "using the system" The system is the taxation system. And if you don't pay taxes you get thrown in jail. 501(c)3 is a legal method of figuring out how to get out of that system. Albiet it does have strings yes, and it's up to you to decide whether those strings are worth it. But you're going to be supporting and working in that same system every time you pay taxes if you aren't 501(c)3. Unless you're planning on simply refusing to pay them. The people who donate to you still have to pay taxes if your not 501(c)3 complient. That's a lot of money going into the system from both you and your donors by you not legally figuring a way out of it.

But you guys are starting to sound like raving liberals who complain that businesses who use loopholes are getting "government benifits."

Please. The system is evil yes, but people who donate to you are in it whether or not your 501(c)3 statis and so are you.

As for me, I say take every legal tax loophole you can get. I'm with Rothbard. "Make the loopholes big enough for a Mack Truck to drive through."

And keeping more of your own money, is very different from taking blood money that the government stole from other people.

And about the comment about "people shouldn't care about tax exempt statis." Well, frnakly, you really shouldn't care what the people who donate to you care about except that you're using the money they gave you wisely. If by being 501(c)3 you can get 10 people or 100 people out of the government schools each year instead of 3 or 4 then you should quit picking about -- in reality what ammounts to as nothing. 

If you don't want the statis, at least give me some "real" reasons -- instead of this fluff about not using the system and nose-in-the-air "well I don't want your money if you're only doing it for tax purposes."

Tracy

When you exploit the loopholes you are gaming the system just like the lobbyists. Gaming the system is what makes the tax policy unfair and corrupt.

For most of us there is a balancing act. We want to survive, thrive, sleep with a clear conscience, and stay out of jail (most?.. well many).

Find your path but dont rave at us for choosing one that doesn't support corrupt practices.

Cathleen

Tracy,
I see it as a matter of do we worry about what a corrupt system says, or do we lead the way to Freedom. If there were no tax deductions available for contributions would you stop making contributions? If so, why? Dave's situation shows how when one utilizes the system, one gets locked in. His options got limited because he took an available tax break. Don't you suppose this is how the system is designed? It is designed to get you dependent on certain aspects of it. I say to hell with the system. I will make my choices independently.

501c3 status would probably mean we cannot give scholarships for homeschooling and we would need to give scholarships only to "poor" people, rather than giving them as mere incentives to any type of person, which is the original purpose of the fund.? We will also be prevented from saying anything the government doesn't like.

Exploiting portions of the tax code in order to gain charitable revenue for the "greater good" is utilitarianism and machiavellianism in my eyes, and amounts to an indirect government subsidy.

If we remain a small organization because we refuse to violate our principles, then so be it.? I will not partner with the government.? I will not violate my principles, not even for the greater good of freedom, and not even to save my own life.

If only we had thousands like Mike...

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 06, 2005, 12:44 PM NHFT
I will not partner with the government.  I will not violate my principles, not even for the greater good of freedom, and not even to save my own life.

When are you going to stop paying taxes?

 :)  You're really good at pointing out our inconsistencies.

Quote from: president on September 06, 2005, 12:50 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 06, 2005, 12:44 PM NHFT
I will not partner with the government.? I will not violate my principles, not even for the greater good of freedom, and not even to save my own life.

When are you going to stop paying taxes?

Good point. ?It's good to have president here to keep us in line. ? ;D

I haven't had to pay taxes in a year because of the startup business, but I want to stop filing immediately. ?I'm not sure if my wife will stay with me when I do, so hopefully I can gain her support soon. ?I can't stop my part-time employer from withholding taxes, social security, or medicare. ?Nor can I stop my wife from paying property taxes on her house.

QuoteFind your path but dont rave at us for choosing one that doesn't support corrupt practices.

Figuring out how to keep more of your own money is not corrupt at all. 2ndly, I've donated and lobbied for others to donate to this organization myself, so don't be sitting their telling me I don't have a right to an oppinion. The more people we can get out of government schools the better, and if we can make 3 times as much money from being tax excempt that's 3 times more people we can get out of the system.

Quote from: president on September 06, 2005, 12:50 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 06, 2005, 12:44 PM NHFT
I will not partner with the government.  I will not violate my principles, not even for the greater good of freedom, and not even to save my own life.

When are you going to stop paying taxes?

That was basically my point. You're already in the system.

And no, exploiting tax loopholes so you can keep more of your money, is vastly different from the lobbiest who lobbies for more laws and protectionism, and government subsidies.

Again, you're sounding like a bunch of raving liberals.

Quote501c3 status would probably mean we cannot give scholarships for homeschooling and we would need to give scholarships only to "poor" people, rather than giving them as mere incentives to any type of person, which is the original purpose of the fund.  We will also be prevented from saying anything the government doesn't like.

Now THAT is a valid reason. I can stand behind that, if you honestly believe that those strings aren't worth all the extra money you'd get. If the entire mission of the organization is voided by being 501c3 statis, then I agree you don't want it.

I just get sick of all this meaningless idealistic pandering. Not that ideals aren't important -- but you're in the corrupt system already. Either you pay taxes or you don't. Figuring out how to keep more of your own money isn't supporting this system, and it's far better from paying into it and supporting it.

Tracy

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 06, 2005, 01:40 PM NHFT
I just get sick of all this meaningless idealistic pandering. Not that ideals aren't important -- but you're in the corrupt system already. Either you pay taxes or you don't. Figuring out how to keep more of your own money isn't supporting this system, and it's far better from paying into it and supporting it.

Tracy

With all due respect, I will live by my principles as much as possible, with the goal of living by these principles as an absolute.? Yes, that may seem strange at times, but that is my decision.? The practical results of our principles may seem strange at times, but that's something all libertarians must learn to accept, and each of us has a different set of principles in addition to ZAP. :)

For somebody who doesn't like government and politics, you have a good way of completely ignoring a persons points and just reiterating the samd sound-bytes [read: you have a good way of sounding like a politician].

You still haven't heard me. If you don't figure out how to keep more of your own money, you're going to be paying taxes into the system and actually supporting it.  Ditto for all those people who do donate to you. Wouldn't you prefer that they can write it off their taxes so they don't need to support the evil system?

If you think tax exempt statis to help you keep more of your own money is like using government for person gain and privlidges, then your ideals are very self contradictory.  Both paying taxes, and not paying taxes are being "in the system" the most idealistic way to be in it, is to keep as much money as you can and to not be supporting it.  You'll be financially supporting the evil corrupt system if you don't have tax exempt statis. What do your "ideals" say about that?

That said, if you honestly feel you wouldn't be allowed to run your charity the way you want to, then that's a valid reason that I can stand behind.

Tracy

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 06, 2005, 02:13 PM NHFT
You still haven't heard me. If you don't figure out how to keep more of your own money, you're going to be paying taxes into the system and actually supporting it.? Ditto for all those people who do donate to you. Wouldn't you prefer that they can write it off their taxes so they don't need to support the evil system?

Not at the price of chains and slavery.

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 06, 2005, 02:13 PM NHFT
That said, if you honestly feel you wouldn't be allowed to run your charity the way you want to, then that's a valid reason that I can stand behind.

Exactly.   :)

I just called the IRS.  Our deadline to respond is now September 20. :-\

Quote from: president on September 06, 2005, 12:50 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 06, 2005, 12:44 PM NHFT
I will not partner with the government.? I will not violate my principles, not even for the greater good of freedom, and not even to save my own life.

When are you going to stop paying taxes?

In addition to my previous reply:

I hired a local tax accountant last year and we received about $3,000 from the government.? I think we made a profit from the government because of the startup expenses and low income of my small business.

My startup expenses were still pretty high this year, and my income is still low. Therefore, I'm doing the government a favor by not filing.? They get to keep the taxes my part-time employer has forcefully taken from me, and they don't have to subsidize my small business.

The taxpayers are subsidizing my business, and I'll tell my customers that (as well as my principles) as I explain why I do not file taxes.? My customers already know I'm an outlaw.? They don't seem to care.? Most are quite thrilled about it, as are my fellow employees.

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 06, 2005, 01:40 PM NHFT

QuoteFind your path but dont rave at us for choosing one that doesn't support corrupt practices.

Figuring out how to keep more of your own money is not corrupt at all. 2ndly, I've donated and lobbied for others to donate to this organization myself, so don't be sitting their telling me I don't have a right to an oppinion. The more people we can get out of government schools the better, and if we can make 3 times as much money from being tax excempt that's 3 times more people we can get out of the system.

Tracy,
It's not the donors I'm thinking about when I look at this issue. It is the scholarship fund and the recipients I think of. The IRS wants to know all about the officers and board of the fund and wants to know all about the recipients. I want to keep the nose out of the tent before the body gets in.

Pat

That was my problem with it too, Pat.

Screw Them!

Quote from: patmccotter on September 06, 2005, 03:57 PM NHFT

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 06, 2005, 01:40 PM NHFT

QuoteFind your path but dont rave at us for choosing one that doesn't support corrupt practices.

Figuring out how to keep more of your own money is not corrupt at all. 2ndly, I've donated and lobbied for others to donate to this organization myself, so don't be sitting their telling me I don't have a right to an oppinion. The more people we can get out of government schools the better, and if we can make 3 times as much money from being tax excempt that's 3 times more people we can get out of the system.

Tracy,
It's not the donors I'm thinking about when I look at this issue. It is the scholarship fund and the recipients I think of. The IRS wants to know all about the officers and board of the fund and wants to know all about the recipients. I want to keep the nose out of the tent before the body gets in.

Pat

That's understandable then.

Tracy

BTW, my automatic use of the nose in the tent quote reminded me of the story so I had to post it here:

One cold night, as an Arab sat in his tent, a camel gently thrust his nose under the flap and looked in. "Master," he said, "let me put my nose in your tent. It's cold and stormy out here." "By all means," said the Arab, "and welcome" as he turned over and went to sleep.

A little later the Arab awoke to find that the camel had not only put his nose in the tent but his head and neck also. The camel, who had been turning his head from side to side, said, "I will take but little more room if I place my forelegs within the tent. It is difficult standing out here." "Yes, you may put your forelegs within," said the Arab, moving a little to make room, for the tent was small.

Finally, the camel said, "May I not stand wholly inside? I keep the tent open by standing as I do." "Yes, yes," said the Arab. "Come wholly inside. Perhaps it will be better for both of us." So the camel crowded in. The Arab with difficulty in the crowded quarters again went to sleep. When he woke up the next time, he was outside in the cold and the camel had the tent to himself.

I knew you could figure it out Mike :D

So does anyone else have any thoughts on the future of the LSF?  Our IRS extension ends tomorrow.

I personally believe the LSF should stay the way it is now.  With next year's applicants, we can experiment with a full profile on the internet to raise money for them.  We could even run an experiment to have donors send funds directly to the family and, if that works very well, that could be our new mode of operation. :)

Sounds good to me.

How many donation have you gotten where anyone even asked for a receipt, much less deducted the donation from their taxes.
Volunteering materials and time making and selling stuff is what will make up for any lost revenues.

Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on September 19, 2005, 03:30 PM NHFT
How many donation have you gotten where anyone even asked for a receipt, much less deducted the donation from their taxes.
Volunteering materials and time making and selling stuff is what will make up for any lost revenues.

None that we are aware of.  People have pledges thousands in donations if we receive 501c3 status, but I'm sure we'll manage just fine without it.

Agreed.  I like the idea of selling stuff, but then we may need a federal status determination or I think we may be required to file federal income taxes.  I think we need to talk to an attorney about that though because selling stuff is a great idea.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 19, 2005, 04:30 PM NHFTAgreed.? I like the idea of selling stuff, but then we may need a federal status determination or I think we may be required to file federal income taxes.? I think we need to talk to an attorney about that though because selling stuff is a great idea.

Why would selling stuff change anything? We don't need no stinkin' lawyers 8)

With regard to 501 c stroke backlash whatever, My thinking is:  quit wasting time on it.  The best thing you can do with that kind of government hoopage is just never think about it or invest any time in it.    If you do make the investment of time, you could lose all that time and never get anytying out of it, or you could just end up more controlled and scrutinized.   

How did the FSP benefit from seeking 501 c 3?  I can't point to a single benefit but we did lose members over it.

I'll be more likely to donate if you are NOT a  501 c 3 and i suspect that is the case with others.

As for the liberty dollar, and future silver donations you may receive, why not just that kind of thing directly to a scholarship receipient on top of the 1K you are already giving them?

I'm pretty sure if we use materials we buy or are donated, don't pay ourselves for making or selling, there are no profits involved to tax.

Do you think we'll have to file?  If so, then we already should have during the past 2 years.   :o

Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 20, 2005, 04:32 AM NHFT
How did the FSP benefit from seeking 501 c 3?? I can't point to a single benefit but we did lose members over it.

I'll be more likely to donate if you are NOT a? 501 c 3 and i suspect that is the case with others.

Exactly.

Quote from: DadaOrwell on September 20, 2005, 04:32 AM NHFT
As for the liberty dollar, and future silver donations you may receive, why not just that kind of thing directly to a scholarship receipient on top of the 1K you are already giving them?

We convert all non-FRN donations to FRNs.  If you want to donate directly to a recipient then I can give your contact info to a recipient.  Your choice.

Charities don't have to file a 990 if the donations total less than $25,000. I think that is the number. Not hard to look up.

Cathleen

Quote from: cathleeninnh on September 20, 2005, 02:46 PM NHFT
Charities don't have to file a 990 if the donations total less than $25,000. I think that is the number. Not hard to look up.

Cathleen

Yep, you're right.

We don't even file unless we make more than $25,000 per year, which is applicable for the forseeable future.  After that, we only have to file 990-EZ unless we make over $100,000.

How many applicants do you think you'll have next year?

Tracy

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 23, 2005, 09:17 PM NHFT
How many applicants do you think you'll have next year?

Tracy

If we get rid of the application fee, then we can try to get many applicants without much downside - that's difficult with a $50 fee, and we ended up sending the $50 back to this year's non-recipient.

Our initial vote to eliminate the application fee failed because we're not sure if people will be honest without some type of fee, but we'll probably end up reducing it to a $10 annual "processing" fee.  This will help cover some costs, like the PO Box or another mass mailing to all private schools in New Hampshire.

I just sent out a letter to the Board about this and about 501c3 status and my conclusion that we should not pursue it:

---

Hello all!

The IRS deadline has come and passed.  I've spoken on the phone with all of you except for Dave and I think we are in a position that we can make a decision.  At [clipped] the other day, [clipped] all told me that if we choose non-profit status instead of tax-deductible status, we should communicate that as a central value of the LSF in order to help our fundraising efforts among liberty-oriented people - our primary audience.

All three said they opposed 501c3 status and would be more likely to donate more money if we refuse to seek 501c3 determination.  I believe this applies to many liberty-oriented individuals.

Of course, you must consider that I am biased because my principles no longer allow me to support the exploitation of tax-deductibility as an incentive.  I do not want to reinforce the belief that people will not donate without a government-enforced incentive to do so.  I also have no desire to change the LSF's mission to meet the demands of the government.

I believe the LSF should stay a non-profit and incorporate the above changes into its fundraising strategy in a public and transparent manner.  If some donors wish to save money on their taxes by donating to a 501c3 charity, then there are countless 501c3 charities they can donate to, including the Children's Scholarship Fund.

Even if the LSF is not wildly successful, I think this is the best thing for the LSF to do considering our core donor audience.  As a non-profit, we will not need to file federal income tax forms until we make over $25,000 per year.

Do you agree?  Should we make a motion?

We also need to make a new motion to change the $50 one-time application fee to something else like a $10 annual processing fee since our last motion to eliminate the fee failed.

Thanks!


Mike

Get the 501c3 status.

I'm self employed.

I make money.

I can either give LSF $1000 of money I earned (with 501c3 status), or I can give the LSF $700 with the other $300 going to subsidize the war, public schools, bridges in alaska to no where as part of my income taxes.

I'd rather all of my money be fully tax deductible -- 501c3 status is not asking others to give me special breaks. It lets me keep all of my money and use it the way I want.

Hardy

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 23, 2005, 11:53 PM NHFT
I believe the LSF should stay a non-profit and incorporate the above changes into its fundraising strategy in a public and transparent manner.? If some donors wish to save money on their taxes by donating to a 501c3 charity, then there are countless 501c3 charities they can donate to, including the Children's Scholarship Fund.

How is this different than not applying for the 501c3? By incorporating and incorporating as a non-profit you are playing the system to secure government protection with the corporate shield and avoiding paying taxes on any money raised. Isn't this inconsistent?

Hardy

Quote from: HardyMachia on September 24, 2005, 09:23 AM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 23, 2005, 11:53 PM NHFT
I believe the LSF should stay a non-profit and incorporate the above changes into its fundraising strategy in a public and transparent manner.? If some donors wish to save money on their taxes by donating to a 501c3 charity, then there are countless 501c3 charities they can donate to, including the Children's Scholarship Fund.

How is this different than not applying for the 501c3? By incorporating and incorporating as a non-profit you are playing the system to secure government protection with the corporate shield and avoiding paying taxes on any money raised. Isn't this inconsistent?

Hardy

Yes, it is inconsistent, but nobody's perfect.  501c3 status is a form of indirect tax subsidy, and regardless of everyone's denial of this fact, even the IRS refers to it in this way.

The "steal money from others indirectly" of 501c3 status is much different than the "don't steal from this organization" of non-profit status, though both are similar.  I'm sure you probably disagree, but I refuse to believe that people will not donate without a government-enforced tax-subsidy incentive to do so.

Quote from: HardyMachia on September 24, 2005, 09:08 AM NHFT
I'm self employed.

I make money.

I would recommend that you stop paying federal income taxes if you believe they use it for war.

They rejected the 501c3 application of the LSF. It seems like a sign from God to me. ;D

Ditto

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 24, 2005, 11:06 AM NHFT
The "steal money from others indirectly" of 501c3 status is much different than the "don't steal from this organization" of non-profit status, though both are similar.

OK, well you still sound like some leftist who doesn't understand the difference between corporate welfare, and companies simply forking over less of their hard-earned money to begin with.

The IRS "sees" it that way because they're goons who want you to bow at there feet. But the fact is getting 501c3 statis isn't an indirect subsidy. It's just all those other organizations that don't have it get their money stolen from them by the federal maphia.

Is it fair? NO. Life's not fair. But in the words of Murry Rothboard. Make the loop-holes big enough to drive a mack-truck through, and take advantage of them whenever you can. The less money you can send to the federal maphia the better.

Tracy

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 25, 2005, 11:58 AM NHFT
OK, well you still sound like some leftist who doesn't understand the difference between corporate welfare, and companies simply forking over less of their hard-earned money to begin with.

The IRS "sees" it that way because they're goons who want you to bow at there feet. But the fact is getting 501c3 statis isn't an indirect subsidy. It's just all those other organizations that don't have it get their money stolen from them by the federal maphia.

You don't even know the difference between a non-profit and a 501c3.  You have no idea what you're talking about and your insults are completely uncalled for.

Hey Mike...Just my thought, but believe you should make the motion to the board and go with the decision of the majority.
I see no real benefit to make the motion on this forum, unless we are opening up the vote to the underground. :)

Quote from: davemincin on September 25, 2005, 07:47 PM NHFT
Hey Mike...Just my thought, but believe you should make the motion to the board and go with the decision of the majority.
I see no real benefit to make the motion on this forum, unless we are opening up the vote to the underground. :)

There's something wrong with the e-mail addresses right now.? Web.com support is working on it.? Something to do with our alias e-mail addresses on an alias domain.? I didn't change anything at all, so Web.com must have problems with their system right now.? They're usually pretty good on reliability.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 25, 2005, 07:28 PM NHFT

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 25, 2005, 11:58 AM NHFT
OK, well you still sound like some leftist who doesn't understand the difference between corporate welfare, and companies simply forking over less of their hard-earned money to begin with.

The IRS "sees" it that way because they're goons who want you to bow at there feet. But the fact is getting 501c3 statis isn't an indirect subsidy. It's just all those other organizations that don't have it get their money stolen from them by the federal maphia.

You don't even know the difference between a non-profit and a 501c3.  You have no idea what you're talking about and your insults are completely uncalled for.

Well, you didn't hear me untill I did.

Non-profits don't pay taxes either as long as they don't turn a profit. and They're hyper-regulated as well.

501c3 gives people who donate to it the ability to keep more of their own money. That's not a subsidy.

Perhaps you should enlighten me.

Tracy

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 27, 2005, 10:49 PM NHFT
Perhaps you should enlighten me.

Quote from: tracysaboe on September 25, 2005, 11:58 AM NHFT
But the fact is getting 501c3 statis isn't an indirect subsidy. It's just all those other organizations that don't have it get their money stolen from them by the federal maphia.

You said that organizations which do not have 501c3 status "get their money stolen from them."  Therefore, you did not even understand the difference between a non-profit and a 501c3, but now you do know so you corrected yourself.

Or you did not mean to say that in the first place.  It's really hard to tell.

Regardless, 501c3 status is an indirect subsidy in my eyes.  Even the IRS refers to a 501c3 as an organization "subsidized by tax-deductible donations."  Just because it's not a direct government subsidy, that doesn't mean it's not a government subsidy.

We have several people who will donate more if we decide to stop going for 501c3 status.  We have people who have stopped donating because we said we were seeking 501c3 status.  These have some influence on me, I admit, but it's the principle of it that carries the most weight with me, and my principles oppose 501c3 status.

Well, to me "getting subsidized by tax-deductable donations" just means that the people that donate to you get to keep more of their own money if they donate to a 501c3 istead where-as they don't if the organization they donate to doesn't have that statis.

Personally I would rather all of my money go to you, then just 80% or whatever.

That said, again if you honestly feel that the government would control you more with that statis, then don't go for it. I can understand that. But I still think this "indirect government subsidy" argument is nonsence.

I'll certainly still support your organization however much I can regardless, but for me I'd rather give as little money as possible to the government then I have to. Where-as if you don't have it, I still need to give my money to the government.

Tracy

What are the reporting requirements of a "non-profit" as opposed to a 501c3?

Reporting requirements as to income, people running each and recipients of funds of each.

Quote from: patmccotter on September 28, 2005, 04:30 AM NHFT
What are the reporting requirements of a "non-profit" as opposed to a 501c3?

Reporting requirements as to income, people running each and recipients of funds of each.

For a small non-profit like us?  There are very few reporting requirements, just one annual financial report to the state.

I'm not sure about 501c3 status, but I know it's more than that.  For our 501c3 application, they wanted bios of the entire Board, personal information about recipients, and more.  All of this would be made public.

.... and then they might ask for more.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 25, 2005, 08:48 PM NHFT
There's something wrong with the e-mail addresses right now.? Web.com support is working on it.? Something to do with our alias e-mail addresses on an alias domain.? I didn't change anything at all, so Web.com must have problems with their system right now.? They're usually pretty good on reliability.

Now the entire lsfund.org domain alias is down and the only way to the website is www.libertyscholarshipfund.org.

Way to go, Web.com support!  Keep it up!   ::)

lsfund.org worked for me just now.

I'm probably not the first to think of this, but my religion is ZAP (along with honesty, peace and integrity).  Why can't we start a ZAP religion and 'qualify' to become Ministers and opt out of Social inSecurity!  It seems to me to be a legitimate religion...
Brian
(sorry, off topic)

Yes, it is off topic, but, not a bad idea.  I don't think we should mix it with the LSF, but, maybe we could use it for something else.

This is nuts - I have been following this 501 IRS Bull Shit for weeks.  Do you realize this topic is up to 8 pages now !!  Forget trying to work with the government, they are not a business like mind - they only want control and your  money and my money.  Also, if you do not report the right  forms by certain dates so-forth - you are now subject to stupid illegal fines and penalties, and could end up in jail !!!!!!!!! 

People will donate money to your cause if it makes sense to them.  They do not have to always get a tax deduction - sometimes just seeing that you have helped someone is 100 times greater then a tax deduction, that could cause a tax audit.

KISS  -  Keep it simple stupid.  If your funding gets to complicated people will stay away from you and your foundation.  What your foundation is promoting makes alot of sense !!!!   

Well, I'll make a motion, but we're probably going to lose half the Board whether it passes or fails.   :(

Your  "Common Sense" shall prevail.  Your foundation will become a new way to raise money for a better way to promote learning and education.  You can do it - just think out-side of the box.  We have all been brain - washed to think there are only certain ways to do things, that is why this country is so screwed up !!!  One size fits all.

I don't have any plans to quit if you go for 501c3.  I thought the deadline was past anyway, though.

Just e-mailed it out to the Board:

Motion to Cease Pursuit of 501c3 Status

I am making a motion to permanently cease pursuit of federal 501(c)(3) tax-deductible charity status.
I vote yes on this motion.

Yes.

Brian Sullivan

The motion passes.? The Board has voted to permanently cease pursuit of 501c3 status.? ?:o

It's time for some big changes then.? We need to make it more of a community effort.? The LSF forum on the NH Underground definitely helps.? :)

I like the idea of creating profiles of potential scholarship recipients.? It's in their best interest to do it, even if it does not increase their chances of success.? It makes this more of a personal effort.? :)

So how many board members did we lose?

We'll find out in the next few days or weeks.

 :(

The LSF is now unique and should promote itself nationwide. We know our target donors and should make the most of it.

Cathleen

"Unfit for 501c3 status" - IRS
.... or however they worded it :)

"The IRS didn't like our selection process.....we must be doing something right."

"Support the LSF ..... too dangerous for 501c3 status"

How many board members can there be if two or three of you just carried that vote?

5

....see that was fast .... and hardly any of that roberts rules stuff 8)

Quote from: cathleeninnh on October 02, 2005, 08:30 AM NHFT
The LSF is now unique and should promote itself nationwide. We know our target donors and should make the most of it.

Cathleen

Let's do it.

We're gonna need all the help we can get.  Feel free to take fundraising ideas and run with them.  :)

It's time to revamp the website.

I like Wikis.  Maybe we should use one for the LSF's website.   :)

Dave Mincin has been a placeholder for the Secretary position.  We need to find someone willing to do some work to fill that position.

Name names if you want and I'll start making some calls.

Sorry but I don't know you.

Quote from: sung on October 04, 2005, 10:33 PM NHFT
No wonder you're not succeeding.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Put your rose colored glasses on, or borrow a pair from Russel.

Didn't the LSF award scholarships to 100% of applicants this year?

We got one application late, so one didn't get a scholarship.   :(

You have to wear a tight sweater and show a lot of leg to Mike.

Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on October 05, 2005, 06:05 PM NHFT
You have to wear a tight sweater and show a lot of leg to Mike.

lol ..... that was funny ...........wait ....didn't mincin have that job .....oh lord :o

That was where he first started the cross dressing thing.

I heard the sec. also has to wear the NHLA Classic Thong:

(http://jitcrunch.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazo4MF9GLmpwZ3xsb2FkPUwwLGh0dHA6Ly96b29tLmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb20vOS80NTY2MjE5X3pvb20uanBnfHxzY2FsZT1MMCw3Niw3N3xjb21wb3NlPWJsYW5rLEwwLEFkZCwyMDUsMTE3fGNwPXJlc3VsdCxibGFua3xzY2FsZT1yZXN1bHQsMCw0ODB8bG9hZD1zYW1wbGUsaHR0cDovL3d3dy5jYWZlcHJlc3MuY29tL2NvbnRlbnQvZ2xvYmFsL2ltZy9zYW1wbGVfY3J1bmNoX292ZXJsYXkuZ2lmfHNjYWxlPXNhbXBsZSwwLDQ4MHxjb21wb3NlPXJlc3VsdCxzYW1wbGUsQWRkLDAsMHxjb21wcmVzc2lvbj05NXw=)

but this is not the nhla

I believe the LSF is.

The LSF is not connected with the NHLA at all.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 04, 2005, 06:28 PM NHFT
Dave Mincin has been a placeholder for the Secretary position.? We need to find someone willing to do some work to fill that position.

Name names if you want and I'll start making some calls.

Totally agree.  I have not been pulling my share and would be most willing to step down if someone is up for the task! :)

I thought the LSF was part of the Civic Action arm of the NHLA.  And the NHLA seems to think so as well.

Current NHLA Civic Action Programs

NHLA Civic Action is proud to announce the formation and launch of the Liberty Scholarship Fund

http://www.lsfund.org/

The purpose of the Liberty Scholarship Fund is to significantly increase the educational opportunities available to children ages 6-18 by acquiring charitable donations and channeling those funds directly to families in New Hampshire for non-public education. To learn more about the Liberty Scholarship Fund and to make a donation directly to the fund, please visit http://www.lsfund.org/

Quote from: russellkanning on October 06, 2005, 02:20 PM NHFT
but this is not the nhla

Actually the LSF was put together largely though the effort of NHLA civic action, and in particular the
efforts of Michele Dumas, and Dawn Lincoln.

It is now a seperate and independent organization. ?I'm hopeful in the future, NHLA civic action will help
other worthy non-profits to organize and get up and running.

We also plan to help NH non-profits fund raise, and might be up for helping the LSF in the future.

"I thought the LSF was part of the Civic Action arm of the NHLA.  And the NHLA seems to think so as well."

Not!  Don't try to speak for others, but on this one I can, since I am civic action chair.  We for sure wish the
LSF the best, and helped in it's formation, but it is a free and independent organization.

Quote from: katdillon on October 06, 2005, 03:37 PM NHFT
The LSF is not connected with the NHLA at all.

::)
Oh god, not this again.

http://www.lsfund.org/history.html

Quote
2003
  The Liberty Scholarship Fund was co-founded by Mike Fisher of Newmarket, Dawn Lincoln of Winchester, and Michelle Dumas of Somersworth. The LSF was also co-founded by the Civic Action Department of the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance (NHLA). Fundraising begins.


June 25, 2004
  At the first annual NHLA Liberty Dinner, Michelle Dumas introduced the Liberty Scholarship Fund and other NHLA Civic Action programs to a sold-out audience. Her remarks can be read here: LSF Introduction by Michelle Dumas.

  A silent auction fundraiser for the LSF is held at the Liberty Dinner. Generous donations pour in from businesses all over New Hampshire.

Not connected at all  ::)

Bite me He...She!!!!? As usual you always get it wrong??? ::) ???

The LSF is a fine organization...but is not associated with the NHLA...
Too, too bad...appears amoung your other disabilities, the inabiltiy to
read also sticks out!!! :P ::) ;D

Do you think you are better than me because I can't read?

Quote from: davemincin on October 06, 2005, 04:25 PM NHFT
The LSF is a fine organization...but is not associated with the NHLA...

I would like to know your definition of "associated".

Thinking you should tell that fucked up webmaster seth to fix the NHLA site.
Thinking you have a dead link:
http://www.nhliberty.org/civicactionremarks.htm

But you can find the info here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041024084441/nhliberty.org/civicactionremarks.htm

Quote
Last fall, when NHLA was still in its formative phases, Mike Fisher, then a resident of Vermont but who has since moved to New Hampshire, came to us with what we believed to be a brilliant idea. To create a scholarship - since named the Liberty Scholarship Fund - whose goal is to significantly increase the educational opportunities and choices available to New Hampshire children. To achieve this, the fund would channel donations directly to families wishing to take personal responsibility for their children?s education through means other than public schools. Mike Fisher and Dawn Lincoln, another founder of the Liberty Scholarship Fund who has also recently moved to New Hampshire, worked together with NHLA Civic Action to form and launch the Liberty Scholarship Fund in time to award our first scholarships for the upcoming school year.

Families applying to the fund will be eligible for scholarships of up to $1000 per child for their choice of non-public education - whether that means private schooling or homeschooling. While there are certain eligibility requirements that need to be met, a major requirement - in the interest of providing a hand up rather than a handout - is that we ask the applicant families to provide volunteer time to help promote and expand the fund so that it may benefit even more children.

After close to a year of hard work, I?m proud to tell you that recipients of this year?s scholarships will be picked on July 15th and we will begin to award scholarships on August 1st in the amount of $1000 per child.

Of course, I brought brochures and applications with me, if anyone here would like more information or knows of a family that would benefit from it.

But, most importantly, I am here tonight to ask for your support. We need your donations to make the Liberty Scholarship Fund a success and to provide scholarships to as many New Hampshire children as possible. In less than three weeks we will select this year?s recipients of the scholarship. Any check you write tonight will be channeled directly to a New Hampshire family who wishes to enroll their children in a private school or to educate their children at home but would be unable to do so without your support.

I would also like to remind you that tonight we are holding a silent auction and that all proceeds will directly benefit the New Hampshire families who have applied for a scholarship from the Liberty Scholarship Fund. Business owners and individuals all over the state have donated goods and services for tonight?s silent auction and I urge you to please bid generously for the auction items you are most interested in.

Hey He-She...we getty up and go...with all of our imperfections...? Expect we often disagree, but
what we don't disagree on is drawing a line in the sand and working to make NH more free!

The know it alls like you are winning to be sure, but thinking we are going to change that! ;)

Keep living and quoting the past...too bad really, the future is what is important, not the past, but then
why would I think you just might understand that! :P

(http://www.stopinfantcircumcision.org/baby%20label.jpg)

Quote from: president on October 06, 2005, 04:20 PM NHFT

Not connected at all  ::)

Fine, in my haste to answer, I expressed myself sloppily.  The LSF is no longer a part of the NHLA, though it once was.  I sincerely apologize to you and your entire family for the obvious mental anguish the confusion over this issue has caused.

Quote from: davemincin on October 06, 2005, 04:15 PM NHFT

Quote from: russellkanning on October 06, 2005, 02:20 PM NHFT
but this is not the nhla

Actually the LSF ....

I was only referring to the thong comment ..... I thought he was posting to the wrong thread. :)
I can only picture DaveM in manly clothes and a beer in one hand. 8)

Hey have to say. :P  After a few comments from the He-She...you guys start looking
better and better!

Dare I say! 8) :P ;D

Quote from: katdillon on October 06, 2005, 05:39 PM NHFT

Quote from: president on October 06, 2005, 04:20 PM NHFT

Not connected at all  ::)

Fine, in my haste to answer, I expressed myself sloppily.  The LSF is no longer a part of the NHLA, though it once was.  I sincerely apologize to you and your entire family for the obvious mental anguish the confusion over this issue has caused.

An apology is not good enough. I want restitution.

The picture was for dave.

Quote from: president on October 06, 2005, 10:08 PM NHFT
An apology is not good enough. I want restitution.

OK, you got one 'applaud'.

Yeah, we're loosely affiliated with the NHLA these days.  One of our Board members (Dave) is the head of NHLA Civic Action.  The LSF was originally co-founded by the NHLA.

But the LSF is otherwise not controlled by the NHLA, and it's now an independent nonprofit entity with its own Board.  It has been for a long time.

I guess "affiliation" is subjective.

I know that the decision has been made and it is in no way my intention to try and reopen this divisive issue.  I've withheld comment both because I saw how things were going and because I went over all this with respect to the FSP (not) getting 501c3 status.  Still, I'd like to respond to the sentiment expressed below in the hopes of explaining a few things.

I think a few people need to step out of their own shoes and think in terms of someone who is a potential large donor.  I'm fortunate and able enough to make a pretty high income.  This is a relatively new thing for me and something that will most likely come to an end when I move to NH.  Along with this income comes the fact that I have about 1/3rd of my marginal income taken from me via Federal income taxes.  I actually pay more in Federal tax than I _made_ any year of my life more than 5 years ago (and I'm no spring chicken).  Please contemplate that as if it were your situation and how you would feel about it.  Back to 501c3 - if a charity does not have 501c3 status I am giving $150 for every $100 that the charity gets and the other $50 goes to a government that I would rather starve than feed.  There are a number of freedom oriented charities that have managed to deal with getting 501c3 status including ones focused on 2nd amendment rights and eminent domain abuse. I'm very interested in these issues and will mostly donate to these charities.  To characterize my making a smart decision that furthers both my freedom and that of others as not being serious about freedom is nonsense.

To further explain this; back when the FSP was debating this issue I set up a charitable fund.  This allows me to donate money (and get the tax deduction) now, while I'm making it, and designate recipients later (as well as investing it so that it grows).  It?s a great option for someone who has a few windfall years and wants to use them to bank their lifetime charity.  Nevertheless, such a fund can only give money to 501c3 charities and that money simply cannot go to one without this status. 

Finally, as one might suspect, I have no respect for the ?you?re dealing with The Man and therefore not serious? argument.  What I have a lot more respect for is the LSF not wanting to deal with potentially invasive reporting requirements.  For what it is worth, the IRS can usually be backed down with a hardcore attitude and willingness to fight (their letter was preposterous) but the LSF has limited resources and there would be (potentially large) up front costs.  Toss into this mix how this issue is so divisive for the membership and I completely understand the lack of interest in such a fight. 

Finally, I think abandoning such a worthwhile charity as the LSP over this issue would be silly and self-defeating but I?ll just be another guy throwing the odd $10 into the jar and not giving the amount that I?d like to donate.

Quote from: AlanM on September 04, 2005, 10:08 PM NHFT
My feeling is that if people put tax deductions ahead of freedom, then they are not serious about freedom.

Quote from: Seamas on October 27, 2005, 10:07 PM NHFT
Nevertheless, such a fund can only give money to 501c3 charities and that money simply cannot go to one without this status.

Finally, as one might suspect, I have no respect for the "you're dealing with The Man and therefore not serious" argument.

You might be surprised that the IRS does not force you to make "charitable contributions" to only 501c3. Ask your tax advisor. If he says no, then ask a different tax advisor. :)
You could also start a 501c3 charity or just give to one of those.

Maybe you should step out of your own shoes and just stop paying taxes. Are you ready for looking at life a different way? It is very freeing to no longer play their games and start crippling the beast. :)

Quote from: Seamas on October 27, 2005, 10:07 PM NHFT
To further explain this; back when the FSP was debating this issue I set up a charitable fund.? This allows me to donate money (and get the tax deduction) now, while I'm making it, and designate recipients later (as well as investing it so that it grows).? It?s a great option for someone who has a few windfall years and wants to use them to bank their lifetime charity.? Nevertheless, such a fund can only give money to 501c3 charities and that money simply cannot go to one without this status.?

The (national) Children's Scholarship Fund is a 501c3, and it has a chapter in New Hampshire.? They give scholarships for private school, not homeschooling, and only to low-income families.

If you refuse to donate without being able to deduct your donations, then you can use that charity.


Children's Scholarship Fund New Hampshire

National URL:? www.scholarshipfund.org
Local URL:? ?none
Org:? Children's Scholarship Fund New Hampshire
Contact: Franklin, NH 03235

603-934-6302 phone
603-388-1411 fax
Email:? csfnh@email.com

Be warned:  look at who's on the Board of the national charity before you donate.   :o

Henry Kissinger?   :o

Seamas,

I agree, I use every legal tax break I can get.  In 2004, considering all of the taxes that I am forced to pay here in NY, I turned over 49.7% of my income.  Makes me sick to even have to write that :P  NH in 2006 or bust.  ;D

Tax deductaible orgs definitely have a huge advantage when attracting dollars, but in the case of the LSF, I think it's a good choice for now.  And, maybe it will become a pioneer in this area.

Brian

The lsf has low expense ratios. :)

Quote from: Seamas on October 27, 2005, 10:07 PM NHFT
I know that the decision has been made and it is in no way my intention to try and reopen this divisive issue.  I've withheld comment both because I saw how things were going and because I went over all this with respect to the FSP (not) getting 501c3 status.  Still, I'd like to respond to the sentiment expressed below in the hopes of explaining a few things.

I think a few people need to step out of their own shoes and think in terms of someone who is a potential large donor.  I'm fortunate and able enough to make a pretty high income.  This is a relatively new thing for me and something that will most likely come to an end when I move to NH.  Along with this income comes the fact that I have about 1/3rd of my marginal income taken from me via Federal income taxes.  I actually pay more in Federal tax than I _made_ any year of my life more than 5 years ago (and I'm no spring chicken).  Please contemplate that as if it were your situation and how you would feel about it.  Back to 501c3 - if a charity does not have 501c3 status I am giving $150 for every $100 that the charity gets and the other $50 goes to a government that I would rather starve than feed.  There are a number of freedom oriented charities that have managed to deal with getting 501c3 status including ones focused on 2nd amendment rights and eminent domain abuse. I'm very interested in these issues and will mostly donate to these charities.  To characterize my making a smart decision that furthers both my freedom and that of others as not being serious about freedom is nonsense.

To further explain this; back when the FSP was debating this issue I set up a charitable fund.  This allows me to donate money (and get the tax deduction) now, while I'm making it, and designate recipients later (as well as investing it so that it grows).  It?s a great option for someone who has a few windfall years and wants to use them to bank their lifetime charity.  Nevertheless, such a fund can only give money to 501c3 charities and that money simply cannot go to one without this status. 

Finally, as one might suspect, I have no respect for the ?you?re dealing with The Man and therefore not serious? argument.  What I have a lot more respect for is the LSF not wanting to deal with potentially invasive reporting requirements.  For what it is worth, the IRS can usually be backed down with a hardcore attitude and willingness to fight (their letter was preposterous) but the LSF has limited resources and there would be (potentially large) up front costs.  Toss into this mix how this issue is so divisive for the membership and I completely understand the lack of interest in such a fight. 

Finally, I think abandoning such a worthwhile charity as the LSP over this issue would be silly and self-defeating but I?ll just be another guy throwing the odd $10 into the jar and not giving the amount that I?d like to donate.

Quote from: AlanM on September 04, 2005, 10:08 PM NHFT
My feeling is that if people put tax deductions ahead of freedom, then they are not serious about freedom.

Thank you

Quote from: katdillon on October 28, 2005, 04:21 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on October 28, 2005, 02:48 PM NHFT
Be warned:? look at who's on the Board of the national charity before you donate.? ?:o

Henry Kissinger?   :o

Laura Bush?!  :o

A name collecting organization.

From the Voluntaryist webpage (http://www.voluntaryist.com/):

WE ARE NOT TAX EXEMPT
Your gifts to our work are not tax-deductible. Our efforts are bound by conscience and goodwill, not government regulation or political privilege. We refuse to be numbered or supervised by any government agency.

Maybe we should add a similar statement.

 :o

Quote from: katdillon on October 30, 2005, 07:29 PM NHFT
From the Voluntaryist webpage (http://www.voluntaryist.com/):

WE ARE NOT TAX EXEMPT
Your gifts to our work are not tax-deductible. Our efforts are bound by conscience and goodwill, not government regulation or political privilege. We refuse to be numbered or supervised by any government agency.

Maybe we should add a similar statement.

The late, great, Dr. Gene Scott, famous goofball/kook/genius (depending on your view), never allowed his church to have tax-free status. He railed against other evangelists dabbling in the polite fiction of "love offerings" in exchange for books and tapes. He said that if you wanted it, you could buy it, and pay sales tax, and the church sales arm would pay any income tax that resulted.

The reason was simple: he refused to allow his message to ever be tainted by conforming to government standards about what could or couldn't be said from the pulpit without endangering tax status.

Of course, I don't think the IRS is worried about pyramids, fine art, Playboy bunnies, and Merle Haggard singing for Sunday service.  ;D

That guy is dead?  He's looked a little rough on TV lately! Must be video!

Yeah, he died last year. There's never been any mention of it on his web sites, that I could see.

I don't spend much time listening to SW these days, so I haven't paid any attention to his program. We've never gotten via TV.

Quote from: katdillon on October 30, 2005, 07:29 PM NHFT
From the Voluntaryist webpage (http://www.voluntaryist.com/):

WE ARE NOT TAX EXEMPT
Your gifts to our work are not tax-deductible. Our efforts are bound by conscience and goodwill, not government regulation or political privilege. We refuse to be numbered or supervised by any government agency.

Maybe we should add a similar statement.

:o

Absolutely!!!

I think we should redesign the LSF website to be actually usable by anyone.

We should turn it into a Wiki!  ;)

Not to be overly pedantic, but I did explain how the fund that I've set up can only give money to 501c3 charities. Here is a site that explains it in detail: http://www.vanguardcharitable.org/policies_broc.asp under Policies and Procedures.  I am my own tax advisor and have a pretty good understanding of such issues.

The idea of starting my own 501c3 charity and dealing with the IRS on my own terms has already occurred to me.  Unfortunately, I suspect that sending money to one's own 501c3 raises a big red flag and one that is a legitimate concern.

I have sympathy for your "opting out of the system" idea in terms of not paying taxes but I?d prefer to fight and beat the IRS rather than hide from them.  Chacun ? son go?t.

Quote from: russellkanning on October 28, 2005, 10:46 AM NHFT

Quote from: Seamas on October 27, 2005, 10:07 PM NHFT
Nevertheless, such a fund can only give money to 501c3 charities and that money simply cannot go to one without this status.

Finally, as one might suspect, I have no respect for the ?you?re dealing with The Man and therefore not serious? argument.

You might be surprised that the IRS does not force you to make "charitable contributions" to only 501c3. Ask your tax advisor. If he says no, then ask a different tax advisor. :)
You could also start a 501c3 charity or just give to one of those.

Maybe you should step out of your own shoes and just stop paying taxes. Are you ready for looking at life a different way? It is very freeing to no longer play their games and start crippling the beast. :)

Quote from: Seamas on November 02, 2005, 11:00 PM NHFT

I have sympathy for your "opting out of the system" idea in terms of not paying taxes but I?d prefer to fight and beat the IRS rather than hide from them.? Chacun ? son go?t.

That's a hoot. Believing you can beat the IRS by using the IRS code. The best you can do is better than the poor guy who doesn't try. As long as the government needs more money, the code will continually be adjusted to prevent you from winning.

Cathleen

If you play by their rules, you will still have to pay something. :(
I would think that you could donate to your  "own 501c3" ..... think Ford Foundation. :)

Quote from: cathleeninnh on November 03, 2005, 07:42 AM NHFT

Quote from: Seamas on November 02, 2005, 11:00 PM NHFT

I have sympathy for your "opting out of the system" idea in terms of not paying taxes but I?d prefer to fight and beat the IRS rather than hide from them.? Chacun ? son go?t.

That's a hoot. Believing you can beat the IRS by using the IRS code. The best you can do is better than the poor guy who doesn't try. As long as the government needs more money, the code will continually be adjusted to prevent you from winning.

Cathleen

That's the reality of the situation.  You can win against the IRS through a legal technicality.  It is theoretically possible, and has happened once recently.  But in reality, you're not going to win.

The way out is not through.

By beating the IRS I did not mean paying no tax.  Rather, I meant minimizing the amount that goes to the state and maximizing the amount that goes to freedom oriented charities.

Furthermore, I wonder what furthers freedom better: 1) making a lot of money and paying a chunk of it to the state and a chunk of it to freedom oriented charities or 2) living in a hole in the ground, selling harvested firewood to survive and forking over the odd $5 to the LSF.

The second option is a bit of a caricature, but one based on many posts unless I'm missing something.  Perhaps I am missing out on how one can both make a reasonable living and a meaningful financial contribution to the charities of one's choice while not contributing a single dollar to the state.  If so, I'd sure like to know how that can be accomplished.

Quote from: cathleeninnh on November 03, 2005, 07:42 AM NHFT

Quote from: Seamas on November 02, 2005, 11:00 PM NHFT

I have sympathy for your "opting out of the system" idea in terms of not paying taxes but I?d prefer to fight and beat the IRS rather than hide from them.  Chacun ? son go?t.

That's a hoot. Believing you can beat the IRS by using the IRS code. The best you can do is better than the poor guy who doesn't try. As long as the government needs more money, the code will continually be adjusted to prevent you from winning.

Cathleen

I'd take option #2.

Quote from: Seamas on November 06, 2005, 01:35 AM NHFTFurthermore, I wonder what furthers freedom better: 1) making a lot of money and paying a chunk of it to the state and a chunk of it to freedom oriented charities or 2) living in a hole in the ground, selling harvested firewood to survive and forking over the odd $5 to the LSF.

The second option is a bit of a caricature, but one based on many posts unless I'm missing something. Perhaps I am missing out on how one can both make a reasonable living and a meaningful financial contribution to the charities of one's choice while not contributing a single dollar to the state. If so, I'd sure like to know how that can be accomplished.

Choice one feeds the state :(
Why does choice two have to be a hole in the ground? Why not try to make as much money as you can without the government knowing about it?

Maybe this guy can join us. 8)

Seamas, I entirely understand your ordeal.

The government has set up a system in which you either:
1)  Pay them a portion of your paycheck before you make a donation; OR
2)  The charity of your choice must change radically and submit to countless regulations.

It is definitely a barrier to donation for lawful individuals.  I agree.  However, the LSF has decided to reserve its complete freedom.

There are many 501c3 charities out there, including some with a mission identical to our own.  It's all a question of who you trust more with your money.

After thinking about this, I think I'm glad the LSFdoesn't have this Tax Exempt Statis.

I don't know, after reading about all the Tax Exempt organizations (like the Ford, Rockefeller, and Carnegie foundations and how they were corrupted into being very pro-state organizations.) and charities for Breast Cancer, MS, etc., and how they aren't really allow to do anything to actually try to cure diseases because now that they have Tax Exempt Statis they have to comply with the Miriods of FDA and FTC rules.

Look at even the NRA and the NTA and many of these supposedly pro-liberty associations -- and how they've really crept away from their original purposes.

It's my thinking that this wouldn't have happened nearly as much if they didn't have that 501(c) statis.

Anyway.

Tracy

Thank you all for your interesting and respectful replies.  Yes, option 1 feeds the state, nevertheless donating to 501c3 charities does not.  Basically the money passes through from the earner to the recipient and bypasses the state, hence its allure.

In terms of your reply to option 2, I presented "living in a hole and selling harvested firewood" as a caricature but also as an option that would legally work if one refused to pay a cent to the state.  One person replied that they would chose that option and I have great respect for them if they live that way. 

The problem is that almost everyone lives somewhere in between living in a hole and being a plutocrat who can game the system so well that it works for them (Bill Gates springs to mind) more than they work for it.  For almost all of us, the more money one makes, the more scrutiny one will come under.  Owning one's own business allows one to get out of withholding, etc. and do a lot of interesting things (legal or not) that allow one to avoid/evade taxes.  I know this but the more one?s business is successful, the more likely that one will get nailed if one is simply not paying taxes.   

It?s quite a conundrum and if someone here knows the way out I?d sure like to hear about it - although (if it is, as I suspect, illegal) they?d be damn stupid to post it in a public forum ? so I guess I won?t hear about it; if it exists.  Ha, ha, that?s another conundrum ? if I am ignorant no one who practices otherwise can educate me; they can only say that I?m wrong without providing any evidence.  I?ll shut up now.

Quote from: russellkanning on November 06, 2005, 05:45 AM NHFT

Quote from: Seamas on November 06, 2005, 01:35 AM NHFTFurthermore, I wonder what furthers freedom better: 1) making a lot of money and paying a chunk of it to the state and a chunk of it to freedom oriented charities or 2) living in a hole in the ground, selling harvested firewood to survive and forking over the odd $5 to the LSF.

The second option is a bit of a caricature, but one based on many posts unless I'm missing something. Perhaps I am missing out on how one can both make a reasonable living and a meaningful financial contribution to the charities of one's choice while not contributing a single dollar to the state. If so, I'd sure like to know how that can be accomplished.

Choice one feeds the state :(
Why does choice two have to be a hole in the ground? Why not try to make as much money as you can without the government knowing about it?

Quote from: Seamas on November 09, 2005, 10:29 PM NHFT
Thank you all for your interesting and respectful replies.  Yes, option 1 feeds the state, nevertheless donating to 501c3 charities does not.  Basically the money passes through from the earner to the recipient and bypasses the state, hence its allure.

Allure frequently distorts reality; that's the intent of advertisting, no?

While it seems on the surface that 501c3 donations bypass the state and leave the IRS out of it completely (that's the allure), the reality is that the state is heavily involved in the process. "Bypassing the state" requires scads of state employees approving the bypass, and then there's wasted overhead on compliance. Net result: more state, less charity.

Kevin

Quote from: Seamas on November 09, 2005, 10:29 PM NHFTIt's quite a conundrum and if someone here knows the way out I'd sure like to hear about it - although (if it is, as I suspect, illegal) they'd be damn stupid to post it in a public forum – so I guess I won't hear about it; if it exists.

Do you really want to know a way out of the federal taxing game? If you think that they have a legitimate claim to your income, then wouldn't it be cheating to go around them? If on the other hand you see taxes as theft of your money, then avoiding them is not unlawful or immoral. That is your first decision. Is it your money or their money?

IRS Examination of All Saints.
http://www.allsaints-pas.org/all_saints_church.htm

Church could lose tax-exempt status for anti-war sermon
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-08-antiwar-sermon_x.htm

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on November 06, 2005, 01:32 PM NHFT
? However, the LSF has decided to reserve its complete freedom.

You mean the IRS decided for you.

Quote from: Dreepa on November 10, 2005, 07:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on November 06, 2005, 01:32 PM NHFT
? However, the LSF has decided to reserve its complete freedom.

You mean the IRS decided for you.

Yes, you should, at least, change the title of this topic ;)

Quote from: Dreepa on November 10, 2005, 07:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on November 06, 2005, 01:32 PM NHFT
? However, the LSF has decided to reserve its complete freedom.

You mean the IRS decided for you.

We allowed the IRS to reject us because we don't want the LSF to change into something it's not.

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on November 10, 2005, 01:11 PM NHFT

Quote from: Dreepa on November 10, 2005, 07:53 AM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on November 06, 2005, 01:32 PM NHFT
? However, the LSF has decided to reserve its complete freedom.

You mean the IRS decided for you.

We allowed the IRS to reject us because we don't want the LSF to change into something it's not.

Yea.....thats the ticket!....go with that ;)

Quote from: russellkanning on November 10, 2005, 07:01 AM NHFT

Quote from: Seamas on November 09, 2005, 10:29 PM NHFTIt?s quite a conundrum and if someone here knows the way out I?d sure like to hear about it - although (if it is, as I suspect, illegal) they?d be damn stupid to post it in a public forum ? so I guess I won?t hear about it; if it exists.

Do you really want to know a way out of the federal taxing game? If you think that they have a legitimate claim to your income, then wouldn't it be cheating to go around them? If on the other hand you see taxes as theft of your money, then avoiding them is not unlawful or immoral. That is your first decision. Is it your money or their money?

Of course the IRS doesn't see it that way, and some of us have families to take care of and wouldn't be able to do that very well from jail (or worse. I guess I have life insurence . . . .?)

Tracy

Quote from: katdillon on October 01, 2005, 08:16 PM NHFT

Quote from: LeRuineur6 on September 28, 2005, 08:31 PM NHFT
Well, I'll make a motion, but we're probably going to lose half the Board whether it passes or fails.? ?:(

So how many board members did we lose?

We just lost our Treasurer, Tony Lekas, who resigned tonight.? ?:'(

http://unionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=62945


Sermons scrutinized by the IRS

You could try setting up a Limited Liabilities Company (http://www.howtobeinvisible.com/htbi.php?page=llc) instead. I have one personally for private asset protection, but it could work for this potentially.

Oops, nevermind!  :blush:

-EDITED-

Quote from: powerpenguin on March 31, 2006, 01:38 AM NHFT
You could try setting up a Limited Liabilities Company (http://www.howtobeinvisible.com/htbi.php?page=llc) instead. I have one personally for private asset protection, but it could work for this potentially.

Why?

For the same reasons (I'm assuming) that you're trying to get 501c3 status? It's to A:) Protect assets and B:) avoid taxaction, no?

Quote from: powerpenguin on April 01, 2006, 02:17 AM NHFT
For the same reasons (I'm assuming) that you're trying to get 501c3 status? It's to A:) Protect assets and B:) avoid taxaction, no?

If you'll read back about 15 pages or so, you'll see that LSF isn't trying to get 501(c)(3) status. It was up for debate at first, but was soundly rejected when IRS demanded personal information on past and potential scholarship recipients.

Kevin

Quote from: powerpenguin on April 01, 2006, 02:17 AM NHFT
For the same reasons (I'm assuming) that you're trying to get 501c3 status? It's to A:) Protect assets and B:) avoid taxaction, no?

Whatever org they have right now can protect it's assets. They don't have to separate the LSF from some individual or something.
Doesn't a LLC pay taxes and would have to apply to be a 501c3 also.

It depends on what you're doing. I did read that post earlier on, which is why I suggested this. I'm no expert on this stuff, though. I just know what's working out for me at the moment.

For some reason, the NHCLU has 501c3 status.   ???  Now they're complaining that they can't do anything political or even affiliate with political groups in any way.

Their hands are tied and they're under constant surveillance just incase they step out of line.

WHY would anyone want 501c3?  bleh.

Quote from: Michael Fisher on September 02, 2005, 01:52 PM NHFT
Well, the 3 scholarships have been mailed out, and we refunded the $50 application fee for the 4th applicant.

I received a letter in our PO Box today.  The IRS has rejected our application for 501c3 tax-deductible charity status.

Their grounds for rejection are:

-"Your purpose is simply to provide an avenue for individuals to pursue a personal preference of pursuing an education under the pretext of providing scholarships that are meant to be subsidized by tax deductible contributions.  Pursuing a personal preference (or preferred lifestyle) is almost akin to pursuing a private benefit which in itself is proscribed under section 501c3.  Therefore it is our initial determination that your purpose as described, does not appear to qualify as an exempt purpose under the exempt provisions of section 501c3 because of its non-exclusive charitable and/or educational intent.  However, if our understanding of your intended purpose based on our analysis as presented above is incorrect, please provide and explain your reasons."

-A random selection process is "not an acceptable method of determining award recipients."

-They want more info about the recipients.

-They want background info about the members of the Board.

-They want info about any business relationships between the Board and the officers.

I have a couple of suggestions based on my work with 501c3s.

1. Could you make the Scholarship a part of an existing 501c3 thereby avoiding filling for status all together?  There must be a freedom minded 501c3 willing to incorporate a scholarship into there organization.  I am thinking of the NH Liberty Alliance. It looks like you can make donations to them on their website.  If they are an existing 501c3 is is fairly easy to amend the by-laws to incorporate a scholarship. http://nhliberty.org/. Could it become part of the NH Chapter of the Alliance for the Separation of School & State? http://www.honestedu.org/index.php. Another thought is that if there is a 501c3 homeschool organization, could it become part of that?

2. You could resubmit your application with a merit based scholarship determination made by a committee as that seems to be the generally accepted process. Asking for info about Board members and Officers is standard in 501c3 determinations and par for the course.

I'm sure it will help the scholarship program to be a 501c3 so I would encourage you to continue it.

Please feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss this further.

Kate

Do not ask the government's permission to give money to anyone you wish to be used as the giver and receiver agree.

Asking permission involves telling the government about everybody involved in the transaction.