There are some who say that the Free State Project is playing right into the hands of the governments, mainly the feds I assume, by concentrating a significant part of the movement in one convenient place where the government can just move in and in one sweep shut us all down by whatever means necessary (including direct violence and killing...). I usually tend to be optimistic about FSP and feel like there's a real chance for a voluntary society to develop in NH within our lifetimes, but at the same time I gotta wonder.. what if it all ends in blood?
For example, see this post (http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/p/21492/169695.aspx#169695) describing how could government clamp down on the FSP movement and misrepresent their actions in the media so as for it not to raise the fuss they can't deal with. So we'd just silently go away and FSP would be dead.
What do you think about this prospect? Is it a possibility? Is anyone thinking about ways to prevent such a scenario? Does anyone have a "B plan"?
I don't think there will be mass arrests in NH.
I am not afraid of the dark and I don't believe there are monsters living in my closet either.
I have only talked with a dozen or so Freestaters,but the ones I met would not go away silently.
Well the kind of scenario I'm referring to wouldn't necessarily be mass arrests or any kind of silence. I actually hate typing these words, but what I'm referring to is an actual violent clamp down where they actually kill us.. and then claim "casualties in the midst of a raid on extremists who supported dangerous terrorists and criminals"..
Though I'm aware that our biggest weapon are cameras and internet (twitter, facebook, youtube, steaming sites etc.) and that it would probably be near impossible for government to prevent the information of what's going on to flow all over the world (just think Iranian revolution where the Iranian regime certainly tried and still couldn't fully contain it). So I guess that's some reason for optimism.. I just shudder at the thought of actually being in a violent conflict of such nature. :\
(PS: I plan on visiting NH for periods of time within 2 years if all goes well, from here in Europe, and then see if anything more permanent than 3 to 6 month stays will be possible)
This is a possibility which leaves us with two possible scenarios:
1. It's false. In that case, those of us in the Shire will be living in (ha!) paradise, while those outside the Shire will have missed a wonderful opportunity, perhaps because of a silly belief that there'd be a mass roundup or slaughter.
2. It's true. In that case, those of us in the Shire will be rounded up or killed as heros, while those outside the Shire will live on in utter slavery, sooner or later to be rounded up or killed anyway if they try to resist tyranny.
So, if you haven't made the move: what are you waiting for?
memenode
I see you have a reference to 1984 in your signature.
I think that is telling in your fear of the draconian crackdown.
I think Brave New World is closer to what we are dealing with...
Here is a short comparison I found
QuoteSocial critic Neil Postman contrasts the worlds of Nineteen Eighty-Four and Brave New World in the foreword of his 1985 book Amusing Ourselves to Death. He writes:
What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us.
The Free State Project is in actuality a Federal Program that is able to reassign any undesirable Federal or State worker. Under the Program, Federal and State workers classified as, "...excessively troublesome...", "...troublesome...", or "...troubally...", can be reassigned as a Super Secret Infiltrator Agent and given the task of finding out the important secrets of the FSP.
1) Their missions are to be classified as Top, TOp, TOP Super Secret, No Eyes Ever.
2) They are instructed to break off all direct communication with their individual agencies, until a Top Super Secret is discovered.
3) They are told to appear as slightly quirky people making livings with normal expenses, that will be reimbursed at the end of the Program.
4) The Program will never end. This an unfunded Program and does not appear on any roster of Federal or State projects.
In essence it is a way to fire federal and state employees with out actually firing them.
Since the Free State Project is open to public sign ons, there could be as many as three or four members that are not Federal or State Agents.
Hijacked my theory!
Hey does anyone know were I can find the marijuana?
give me a call ;)
Quote from: Pat K on July 26, 2009, 08:59 PM NHFT
Hey does anyone know were I can find the marijuana?
I just watched Bruno. After hearing that quote again, I can't help but wonder if that guy was just some actor ad-libbing and pretending to be a REALLY bad fed just to catch reactions on video.
Quote from: dalebert on July 26, 2009, 10:59 PM NHFT
Quote from: Pat K on July 26, 2009, 08:59 PM NHFT
Hey does anyone know were I can find the marijuana?
I just watched Bruno. After hearing that quote again, I can't help but wonder if that guy was just some actor ad-libbing and pretending to be a REALLY bad fed just to catch reactions on video.
It's inevitable that people from the same Departments will start recognizing each other... and that they will try to cover for each other.
I don't expect the federal government to travel to the 200ish towns of NH and start killing state representatives, lawyers, teachers, nurses, firefighters, college students, radio hosts, writers, and so on. While NH is a small state, it isn't exactly a small area. Many of the people moving to NH for freedom are not even FSP participants. Plus you have to figure in the liberty loving locals, which out number the FSP folks. I guess if over a thousand people turn up dead in NH very shortly, I'll reevaluate this.
A meteor could hit the earth and kill us all tomorrow. It's not very productive to dwell on 'what ifs'.
They can't even tell Jim Johnson from Russell Kanning. Or vice versa, I forget.
How worried should we really be that we'll all be rounded up?
The Free State Project: "a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes."
It just doesn't quite fit....
replace "mindless jerks" with something else, "first" with "last," and "when" with "before" and it'll fit.
Probably still be 'bitching' about each other on the busride.
Sorry, just finisher a Robert Parker novel :blush:
We will probably continue to complain about each other on the busride.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on July 26, 2009, 07:22 PM NHFT
memenode
I see you have a reference to 1984 in your signature.
I think that is telling in your fear of the draconian crackdown.
I think Brave New World is closer to what we are dealing with...
Here is a short comparison I found
QuoteSocial critic Neil Postman contrasts the worlds of Nineteen Eighty-Four and Brave New World in the foreword of his 1985 book Amusing Ourselves to Death. He writes:
What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us.
I like that contrast and it definitely seems like Huxley is closer to what's actually happening in reality. On one hand being drowned with pleasure seems more frustrating than being drowned with fear, but on the other hand at least in a world drowned with pleasure we can try using pleasure to get our points across (which is why I'm fan of using entertainment like movies to promote liberty).
There's one thing though about being drowned with pleasure that could be fatal for us. It is easier for the state to make the news about a clamp down on FSP look irrelevant like "just another conflict somewhere far away I don't care about.. let's get back to having FUN!!" Until of course they come for them too. ::)
If the government people are that organized and powerful, and the people watching them are that apathetic, we've all already lost. Since there's no liberty to be gained in that world, you might as well die surrounded by like-minded friends. Even with the whole "emminent death" thing, I still can't figure out a better place to be than New Hampshire.
Paranoia paralyzes. I agree with many of the comments here.
Quote from: David on July 27, 2009, 08:54 PM NHFT
Paranoia paralyzes. I agree with many of the comments here.
You can be the first to come clean by admitting which Government Agency your from.
There is probably a lot of people here from foreign governments too.
Oui!
Hungarian secret service.
Oop's did I type that?
I am from the government... of one. ;)
Sluzhba Bezpeky Ukrayiny
Ah one of the Ukraine's finest.
When I listen to music, I'm much more likely to pick "A Country Boy Can Survive" out of my playlist than "Blaze of Glory," but I do own both songs.
the crackdown's coming
if you think we are too concentrated ... then stand up to the man from a distance
the important part is not cooperating with evil ... not the location or timing .... actually the timing is important ... now!
23/5 23/9/12/12 11/14/15/23 23/8/5/14 20/11/5 20/9/13/5 3/15/13/5/19...
Yup
8/5/25 9 23/1/14/20 20/15 16/12/1/25
25/15/21 13/5/1/14 20/8/5
14/15/20 20/11/5
Hike!
Okay.. I am coming to believe that further we go into the future in our battle for liberty and their battle for power it will more and more be about technology.
And it wont forever be just about New Hampshire and the Free State Project. If we don't have a successful Free Earth Project within a few decades well.. it's bad.. Check this out. (http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/p/21543/169988.aspx#169988)
Yes Russell, I'm doing something and I don't care where I am. I live in the intertubes and that's where my mission is. I'm the ghost in the machine. ;) Seriously, I've never felt so much sense of purpose in my life and I've never had such long term direction. And it all centers around propagating the idea of voluntaryism, individualism, humanism and even transhumanism ONCE we are prepared for it mentally (which most people aren't).
And to somehow bring that back to topic.. well.. I guess what I'm saying is that this whole issue of rounding up might be completely out of context. A larger battle is going to be brewing and it will be global, and wont involve just Feds against the free staters. Of course I could be talking nonsense.
Quote from: memenode on July 28, 2009, 10:22 PM NHFT
Okay.. I am coming to believe that further we go into the future in our battle for liberty and their battle for power it will more and more be about technology.
And it wont forever be just about New Hampshire and the Free State Project. If we don't have a successful Free Earth Project within a few decades well.. it's bad.. Check this out. (http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/p/21543/169988.aspx#169988)
Yes Russell, I'm doing something and I don't care where I am. I live in the intertubes and that's where my mission is. I'm the ghost in the machine. ;) Seriously, I've never felt so much sense of purpose in my life and I've never had such long term direction. And it all centers around propagating the idea of voluntaryism, individualism, humanism and even transhumanism ONCE we are prepared for it mentally (which most people aren't).
And to somehow bring that back to topic.. well.. I guess what I'm saying is that this whole issue of rounding up might be completely out of context. A larger battle is going to be brewing and it will be global, and wont involve just Feds against the free staters. Of course I could be talking nonsense.
No no your cool. In July of 2523 the whole liberty thing will come down to a few hundred remaining feds and a half dozen porcs in Lexington, Mass. :ahoy:
Head Fed in 2523
(http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/wrlds/strwrs/pr/img/orig/Episode_5_Darth_Vader.jpg)
Porc Leader in 2523:
(http://lisapaitzspindler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/princessleia.jpg)
i was thinking dave ridley the 4th in a wookie costume
lol.. I don't think we'll have to wait till 2523.. But if so I better make sure I extend my life to around 600 years. :D Maybe I'll be in R2D2's brain as a backup. ;D
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on July 29, 2009, 06:17 AM NHFT
Porc Leader in 2523:
(http://lisapaitzspindler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/princessleia.jpg)
... and then every one of you will wish that the ladies' protest had gone through successfully
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on July 29, 2009, 06:17 AM NHFT
Porc Leader in 2523:
(http://lisapaitzspindler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/princessleia.jpg)
Nooo. That was "A long time ago..." - not a short time in the future!
It could happen again
In the future earth is used up, so folks went look'n for other places.
Quote from: Jim Johnson on July 29, 2009, 10:10 PM NHFT
In the future earth is used up, so folks went look'n for other places.
(http://tvbythenumbers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/firefly.jpg)
See... and in the future the ratio of women to men changes from like there's six women total in the entire galaxy, and most of them are dead, to all most 50%. ;)
I'm not part of the "battle" anymore.
Some people say, "Free your ass, and your mind will follow."
I like to say, "Free your mind and your ass will follow."
The intellectual battle has been [was] won [years ago.] Let's stop debating. [Or at least = please = take time out to enjoy each others company
Let's start living like Free individuals.
BTW Jim, We (at headquarters) know that you are Russell523475 not russslell jim76327469.
If you see Lauren 694576 ... she will be OK. We can not (yet) afford to lose the musle of this operation.
Quote from: Jim Johnson on July 29, 2009, 10:10 PM NHFT
In the future earth is used up, so folks went look'n for other places.
To fuck up
Speaking of Firefly, I actually couldn't bring myself to watch it for a few times when I tried. My style was Star Trek with clean powerful ships and a polite crew. Firefly is like Star Trek gone totally wrong somewhere... The ship is a piece of cr@p (I know, Kaylee would be offended), the crew is frankenstein and the future described is among the worst things I ever saw... China and USA merge into The Tyrannical Alliance? Yet humanity is supposedly evolved enough to have technologies that got them so far deep into space? Something just smells about that. I don't believe humans can evolve technologically too far while mentally actually going backwards. If that happens, it wont happen, because we're gonna be dead.
But last time I tried watching, regardless of all the stuff above, I stood through the first few episodes and was so hooked I spent an entire night watching all episodes till the end. :rofl: I guess that dirty charm got to me and I still liked the whole attitude of "you're not gonna tell me how I'm gonna live my life"..
QuoteSpeaking of Firefly, I actually couldn't bring myself to watch it for a few times when I tried.
I smote you. Seriously. I give karma for Firefly references (Sandy's winning by a landslide!) so I have to smite when you dis it. Jim and Pat, +1.
QuoteMy style was Star Trek with clean powerful ships and a polite crew.
And the Death Star, don't forget that! The difference? It's made EXPLICITLY clear that disobedience on the Death Star will result in violence against you. On Trek, it's only "hinted at" by a court martial which might even be worse, since it's legitimized. I'm willing to bet that the people BUILDING the Death Star likely included contractors as well, meaning that it wasn't 100% filled with bureaucrats, unlike the Enterprise.
QuoteFirefly is like Star Trek gone totally wrong somewhere.
Yeah. Because resisting the growth of the state by becoming self-sufficient is a horrible thing.
Quotethe crew is frankenstein and the future described is among the worst things I ever saw
Except Star Trek. :P
QuoteChina and USA merge into The Tyrannical Alliance?
Actually, according to Joss, China and the USA became the predominant CULTURES which is why garb and language are used. The actual "tyrannical Alliance" was the full extension of corporate fascism via Blue Sun. Blue Sun, incidentally, was formed by the merger of Microsoft and PepsiCo. There's way too much backstory...
QuoteYet humanity is supposedly evolved enough to have technologies that got them so far deep into space?
Like that super-advanced technology that people today can only DREAM of? That magical medium of exchange in which one can trade and procure goods and services? You mean... some futuristic society had invented... MONEY? Oh...snap... no... Star Trek HAS no money. That's right... Great civilizations and technological advancement ALWAYS happen in societies with no money!
QuoteBut last time I tried watching, regardless of all the stuff above, I stood through the first few episodes and was so hooked I spent an entire night watching all episodes till the end. rofl I guess that dirty charm got to me and I still liked the whole attitude of "you're not gonna tell me how I'm gonna live my life"..
Perhaps you realized how amazingly insane it is to suspend disbelief to watch and enjoy Star Trek, yet you somehow found yourself incapable of that with Firefly. "I don't like Firefly" would have been acceptible (yet stupid... Everyone likes Firefly!) but arguing that it's bad because it's not realistic like Star Trek... he heh
I couldn't avoid this topic if I tried.
I couldn't make it thru Firefly either, so guess you'd better smite me too, Kevin. :P :)
Firefly was really corny I did not like it. Even the theme song was corny.
Sometimes "corny" is good.
Sometimes we need simple escapism.
Sometimes it's fun to be in the choir and get preached to.
But I won't smite anyone who didn't like Firefly, or Serenity, even though I loved them both.
haven't watched firefly but I dug Serenity
Damn it, why did I revisit this thread so late..
Kevin, I didn't say Star Trek is more realistic, just that I liked their clean bright ships better though saying Firefly is like trek gone wrong is probably quite unfair. What I like about star trek, aside from those clean ships is the focus on exploration and the usually positive attitude they have (even if it's just cheesy unrealistic utopian BS based on completely flawed premises). What I dislike is the politics, bureaucracy and socialism/fascism that the federation mildly represents and of course the fact that they assume this along with rejection of money is the basis of an advanced interstellar society.
My main beef with Firefly is that they're portraying a technologically super advanced society with a mentality of dark ages. This doesn't quite follow any more than it follows that Star Trek world is such an utopia yet they don't use money. Firefly makes the same mistake Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica and so many other scifi make. They think humanity with a coercionist mentality would survive the onslaught of such incredibly powerful technologies without destroying themselves.
In the age in which Firefly is set there either will be no fascist alliance to fight against or there will be no humans.
But anyway, yeah I did suspend disbelief with trek, though I watched most of it before becoming a voluntaryist and it's fair to do the same for Firefly. If looked at as a story relevant to the very present age only decorated with fanciful ships and gadgets, it's perfect! Please don't take this as dissing, I still think Firefly wins in terms of ideology and relevance to our times. It just took a while for it to grow on my complex, nitpicky self.
Cheers
get a life ;D
Quote from: thinkliberty on August 01, 2009, 10:23 PM NHFT
Firefly was really corny I did not like it. Even the theme song was corny.
Dude, just punch my mom in the face, why doncha?!
:'(
Quote from: memenode on August 26, 2009, 01:09 AM NHFTPlease don't take this as dissing, I still think Firefly wins in terms of ideology and relevance to our times. It just took a while for it to grow on my complex, nitpicky self.
Fair enough. There's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief that's always necessary in sci-fi, though the really good writers make that much easier. Of course, if you work too hard on helping your audience suspend their disbelief, you run the risk of it getting boring and tedious.
It's a Western set in space, which is a doubly good analogy because the West was the great frontier at a time of growing tyranny. Patri Friedman described the frontier as a sort of relief valve for tyranny and is researching seasteading for the same reason. There's also the not at all subtle analogy of the South's attempt to secede, including a failed war. Ultimately they lost the fight but the tyranny was so intolerable they decided instead to escape to the skies. "You can't take the sky from me." is such a brilliant expression.
After I watched the Firefly series on DVD I happened to watch an episode of Bonanza. With the exception of technology the stories were the same. I still liked Firefly.
QuoteI couldn't make it thru Firefly either, so guess you'd better smite me too, Kevin.
Smote!
QuoteFirefly was really corny I did not like it.
Smote!
QuoteEven the theme song was corny.
Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 1 hours.
when i think of other worlds i think of SPACE BALLS the movie with dark helmet. its all about
moichendizing
Evil will always triumph over good, because good is DUMB!
so what do we got a quizinart? dont show that again
I think I'll write my own perfect scifi.. eventually. So much has bottled up in me over time and I feel like, aside from blogging, just writing about a perfect yet realistic future and the progression towards it while expressing all my ideas to the last drop...
Besides, my future is in the entertainment and media. I'm a meme master after all. ;)
Quote from: memenode on August 26, 2009, 01:09 AM NHFT
My main beef with Firefly is that they're portraying a technologically super advanced society with a mentality of dark ages. This doesn't quite follow any more than it follows that Star Trek world is such an utopia yet they don't use money. Firefly makes the same mistake Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica and so many other scifi make. They think humanity with a coercionist mentality would survive the onslaught of such incredibly powerful technologies without destroying themselves.
In the age in which Firefly is set there either will be no fascist alliance to fight against or there will be no humans.
Nuclear weapons aren't some future science fiction: they exist today... and yet, we're all still here. How do you explain that?
Nuclear weapons are nothing compared to what's coming and even for them it would probably be a mistake to assume there is no threat. Last world war saw two of nuclear bombs being dropped. WW2 happened after Great Depression and probably as a result of it. We're now in what many call a Greater Depression and the future is quite uncertain.
Whenever I think something is just too horrible for a human being to be able to do I only need to be reminded of history to prove me wrong, and not even history, but day to day reality. Murderers being rewarded medals of honor? Enough said. Bad memes are still here and so long as so many human minds remain infected by them nothing should be assumed as below human honor.
I said nuclear weapons are nothing compared to what's coming. They're just bombs that can destroy entire cities and spread radiation across parts of a continent, but those who throw them are still capable of guilt. They don't remove the biological programming against murderous action, but merely obfuscate it. Technology that's coming, however, allows human augmentation and DARPA is already experimenting with it. Think soldiers who cannot feel guilt, not even biological, because that capacity has been engineered out of them, yet soldiers with super human strength, perception etc.
Human beings themselves can ultimately become the weapons of mass destruction far more disastrous than nuclear bombs. That's just one example. The onslaught of rapidly emerging technologies is dubbed NBIC in this article:
Human, Transhuman, Posthuman: the Implications of Directed Human Evolution for Global Security (http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/5/3/2/7/pages253275/p253275-1.php). NBIC stands for Nano-Bio-Info-Cogno tech. Their potential power dwarfs even nuclear bombs. Human beings with coercionist mentality simply aren't ready for them. It's like giving a nuclear bomb to a cave man.
You're far too negative. Maybe you should move to New Hampshire and be surrounded by like-minded people. It might chip away at your cynicism. It's got to suck to be in a world where the thing overwhelming you is human capacity to kill rather than the human capacity to persuade and improve.
Cynism is easy for me yeah, but I don't have to be cynical (and am not as often as it seems) to point out certain issues to be dealt with and we can't begin to solve a problem before we know what it is or even the whole extent of it.
Of course, solution is voluntaryism, and anyone who pushes voluntaryism is solving the problem of destructive uses of technology as well, but knowing just how far can the threat go can provide a way to be motivated as well as further means of propagandazing the solution. NBIC stuff is a two edged sword though. If we prevent their destructive uses, we open the doors to making a heaven on Earth, in which we are the angels. It can't get more positive than that. As a geek, thinker, marketer and a bit of a sensationalist I love the potential of technology.
So the goal isn't to shoot fear through anybody's bones. It's to point out the full extent of the shift we're facing and therefore the extent to which voluntaryism is important and revolutionary. If voluntaryism prevails as we shift to these technologies it will be heaven on Earth. Otherwise it *may* be hell. In any case, it's clear that time to evolve is right now.
EDIT: Besides, the previous response was meant to clarify my position on what I see as unrealistically too negative science fiction. It might not seem like it, but saying that humans wont live to see that far into the future if such incredible technologies (or more) are put in their hands isn't necessarily pessimistic. One way or another, just as internet has inspired positive change, I think technology has an inherent positive change potential. In a sense, I might as well ignore the whole "we wont be here to see it" thing and just say Firefly, Babylon 5, BSG etc. are simply wrong period. It will be BETTER. The future must be better or it wont be. So if you're talking about the future you better talk about utopia. We've seen enough of dystopias.
Currently Star Trek seems to be holding a monopoly on describing the most positive future. Yet we know what Star Trek represents (mild form of fascism, no money etc.). This can't be. We need an alternative that will blow people's minds more than trek ever could, because it would be based on voluntary interaction, and would press the right buttons in human nature, making far more sense in the end than Trek ever did. It's one of my dreams to one day see such a scifi project come to fruition and perhaps be a part of it. We need to show people the way. We need to visualize what we're about beyond slogans and arguments - put it on the big screen, make people live inside of our ideal world for a while and come to desire it, strongly.