As you can see, I am a brand new forum member. I also will be a brand new... New Hampshire resident around June 2011. I love the freedom that this state allows, but I also am curious about some things I have seen here so far. I am a resident of Florida currently, and it would seem as though tolerance for disobedience in NH is very high compared to FL. It also would seem there are a large number of people who are....well... disobedient. Why do you do this? While the law states you don't have to give more than your name and residence in many cases, why not just give them the information they ask for? It would seem to be less hassle and make the officers job much easier, and you can go about your day without wasting the time it took to argue with him.
Maybe I am missing something here. Should I change my way of thinking when it comes to things like this?
When I watch these videos if reminds me of a bunch of adolescent kids arguing with their parents over something petty that really shouldn't have been an issue to begin with!
Please don't take anything I have said as insults or "trolling". I am truly curious, and want to make sure I understand how things work once I am there.
Everybody that comes here does their own thing. There is no law that says you have to give your name or residence or provide any ID at all if you are not operating a motor vehicle.
Many here correctly believe that cops and other bureaucrats have no moral authority over them and act accordingly.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 13, 2011, 11:06 AM NHFT
As you can see, I am a brand new forum member. I also will be a brand new... New Hampshire resident around June 2011.
Welcome! What brings you the forum? And to New Hampshire? (I'm not physically there yet, but it's home.)
QuoteWhen I watch these videos if reminds me of a bunch of adolescent kids arguing with their parents over something petty that really shouldn't have been an issue to begin with!
Lots of people feel the same way. It starts out as no big deal, but sometimes the cops just won't stop arguing for things they have no legal right to demand.
Oh, wait.... you had the "parents" and "adolescent kids" reversed in your thinking, didn't you?
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 13, 2011, 11:06 AM NHFTIt would seem to be less hassle and make the officers job much easier...
And that, there, is more than enough reason not to. If something will make a scumbag's life easier, that's a good reason not to do that thing.
Joe
when the cops start arguing with us things will be a lot better
i think there is a thoreau quote that fits well here too
Speaking of Thoreau; I like the short version of his original title to his essay which was later called "Civil Disobedience." I think the title "Resistance to Civil Government" is more instructive.
I try to, and wish more people would use the title "Resistance to Civil Government.".
If the government was actually civil in its behavior, I would resist it less :)
Joe
Ask any good? lawyer and they will tell you to never to speak with a cop.
Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik#)
If you stand they want you to bow. If you bow they want you to kneel. If you kneel they want you to lie down. Arbitrary power is rarely satisfied.
Plus a little civil disobedience can be very satisfying....just this morning I tore the "do not remove" tag off my mattress. Shhh. ;)
And....where was this?
...an undisclosed safe house location for wayward middleaged men.
One cold night, as an Arab sat in his tent, a camel gently thrust his nose under the flap and looked in. "Master," he said, "let me put my nose in your tent. It's cold and stormy out here." "By all means," said the Arab, "and welcome" as he turned over and went to sleep.
A little later the Arab awoke to find that the camel had not only put his nose in the tent but his head and neck also. The camel, who had been turning his head from side to side, said, "I will take but little more room if I place my forelegs within the tent. It is difficult standing out here." "Yes, you may put your forelegs within," said the Arab, moving a little to make room, for the tent was small.
Finally, the camel said, "May I not stand wholly inside? I keep the tent open by standing as I do." "Yes, yes," said the Arab. "Come wholly inside. Perhaps it will be better for both of us." So the camel crowded in. The Arab with difficulty in the crowded quarters again went to sleep. When he woke up the next time, he was outside in the cold and the camel had the tent to himself.
Quote from: Pat McCotter on January 15, 2011, 05:52 AM NHFT
One cold night, as an Arab sat in his tent, a camel gently thrust his nose under the flap and looked in. ....
Maria Muldaur - Midnight At The Oasis (1974) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3tHYb4_bAg#ws)
The moral of this story is "OMG! A TALKING CAMEL!"
:o ;D
(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/demotivational-posters-camel.jpg)
Quote from: Pat K on January 16, 2011, 12:07 AM NHFT
(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/demotivational-posters-camel.jpg)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n206/01bmf/musnukl.jpg)
(http://www.spyserver.net/postpics/MooseKnuckle.jpg)
I got the Parrot, not the plates
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on January 16, 2011, 07:37 AM NHFT
I got the Parrot, not the plates
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moose+knuckle (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moose+knuckle)
Quote from: MaineShark on January 13, 2011, 08:46 PM NHFT
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 13, 2011, 11:06 AM NHFTIt would seem to be less hassle and make the officers job much easier...
And that, there, is more than enough reason not to. If something will make a scumbag's life easier, that's a good reason not to do that thing.
Joe
See I can't fully agree with that statement. You're saying that cops are scumbags. MAybe not all, but you've put them in the same catagory. Are you saying that anyone who wants to make sure you're safe and that people who want to take advantage of you are dealt with,... are scumbags? I find that very disturbing.
A question relating to the previous statement.. do you guys not see the need for police? Or are you saying that they should be a little more understanding?
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:31 AM NHFTQuote from: MaineShark on January 13, 2011, 08:46 PM NHFTQuote from: bwirth1999 on January 13, 2011, 11:06 AM NHFTIt would seem to be less hassle and make the officers job much easier...
And that, there, is more than enough reason not to. If something will make a scumbag's life easier, that's a good reason not to do that thing.
See I can't fully agree with that statement. You're saying that cops are scumbags. MAybe not all, but you've put them in the same catagory.
No, not all cops are scumbags.
Some are worse.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:31 AM NHFTAre you saying that anyone who wants to make sure you're safe and that people who want to take advantage of you are dealt with,... are scumbags? I find that very disturbing.
Cops don't want to make me safe. Cops are power-mad psychopaths who make me
less safe. They
are the folks who "want to take advantage" of others.
Joe
Quote from: KBCraig on January 13, 2011, 07:55 PM NHFT
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 13, 2011, 11:06 AM NHFT
As you can see, I am a brand new forum member. I also will be a brand new... New Hampshire resident around June 2011.
Welcome! What brings you the forum? And to New Hampshire? (I'm not physically there yet, but it's home.)
Well... i was looking up information on NH, and started finding all of this stuff, i had never seen before. I.E. the civil diso. and such. Then I find videos and forums.... So naturally I am curious and wondering if my life is going to change once I move to the great granite state. As for why I am moving. MAny reasons. For one, Florida blows, and the people here suck. MY wife was born in NH and her family still lives there, so.... here I come!! I love outdoors, history and beautiful views. New Hampshire has it all.
QuoteWhen I watch these videos if reminds me of a bunch of adolescent kids arguing with their parents over something petty that really shouldn't have been an issue to begin with!
Lots of people feel the same way. It starts out as no big deal, but sometimes the cops just won't stop arguing for things they have no legal right to demand.
Oh, wait.... you had the "parents" and "adolescent kids" reversed in your thinking, didn't you?
That is quite possible..LOL
Crap I messed up on the quote reply.... see above... you should be able to decipher it.
Quote from: MaineShark on January 23, 2011, 11:35 AM NHFT
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:31 AM NHFTQuote from: MaineShark on January 13, 2011, 08:46 PM NHFTQuote from: bwirth1999 on January 13, 2011, 11:06 AM NHFTIt would seem to be less hassle and make the officers job much easier...
And that, there, is more than enough reason not to. If something will make a scumbag's life easier, that's a good reason not to do that thing.
See I can't fully agree with that statement. You're saying that cops are scumbags. MAybe not all, but you've put them in the same catagory.
No, not all cops are scumbags.
Some are worse.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:31 AM NHFTAre you saying that anyone who wants to make sure you're safe and that people who want to take advantage of you are dealt with,... are scumbags? I find that very disturbing.
Cops don't want to make me safe. Cops are power-mad psychopaths who make me less safe. They are the folks who "want to take advantage" of others.
Joe
What on Earth happened to make you feel this way? I have many family members in Illinois who are in law enforcement, and I can tell you for a fact this is not the way it is. I have been out on patrols with them and have seen and experienced what they went through. I for one first hand can tell you not ALL police are this way. Though..... I will say that typicaly the new guys in the departments are usualy ego-maniacs who think a gun and badge make them the boss.... Obviously not so, but it happens all the same.
Now... while i defend actions of many police, I DO understand that many of the "laws" created are just plain dumb, and have never been needed. I DO agree that too much government is not only a bad thing, it is the worst thing that can happen.
We all have our opinions I guess, and that is our right. That is what the whole thing is about isn't it? all of this "C.D.". Making sure our rights are maintained in a fair and "just" form.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:45 AM NHFTWhat on Earth happened to make you feel this way?
Reality.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:45 AM NHFTI have many family members in Illinois who are in law enforcement, and I can tell you for a fact this is not the way it is. I have been out on patrols with them and have seen and experienced what they went through. I for one first hand can tell you not ALL police are this way. Though..... I will say that typicaly the new guys in the departments are usualy ego-maniacs who think a gun and badge make them the boss.... Obviously not so, but it happens all the same.
Now... while i defend actions of many police, I DO understand that many of the "laws" created are just plain dumb, and have never been needed. I DO agree that too much government is not only a bad thing, it is the worst thing that can happen.
We all have our opinions I guess, and that is our right. That is what the whole thing is about isn't it? all of this "C.D.". Making sure our rights are maintained in a fair and "just" form.
Find me a single cop who has never violated anyone's fundamental human rights.
For starters, not one of your Illinois family members qualifies. The right to keep and bear arms is pretty much as fundamental as it gets, and they all enforce the crimes against humanity that Illinois perpetrates.
Joe
Illinois is a horrid state IMHO. Lived there 2x, and hated every minute. But beyond that, you say "Reality". I am not asking to be a smart ass, I am seriously wondering, that way I can understand better why people feel the way they do. Here in Florida, those of us who follow the laws love the cops, since the crime rate here is awful, and no matter where you are you're always wondering if the guy walking toward you is going to try and rob and kill you. So here... The cops as far as we can see do a great job. I can see how a lower crime state such as NH poeple can have a different view on the police.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:57 AM NHFTIllinois is a horrid state IMHO. Lived there 2x, and hated every minute. But beyond that, you say "Reality". I am not asking to be a smart ass, I am seriously wondering, that way I can understand better why people feel the way they do.
I'm not, either. Do some research on how cops actually behave.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:57 AM NHFTHere in Florida, those of us who follow the laws love the cops, since the crime rate here is awful, and no matter where you are you're always wondering if the guy walking toward you is going to try and rod and kill you. So here... The cops as far as we can see doa great job. I can see how a lower crime state such as NH poeple can have a different view on the police.
The crime rate is "awful," which means the cops are going a "great job," is your contention?
If the cops were doing a great job, wouldn't the crime rate be low?
Ever gotten a traffic ticket?
Joe
Quote from: MaineShark on January 23, 2011, 12:02 PM NHFT
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:57 AM NHFTIllinois is a horrid state IMHO. Lived there 2x, and hated every minute. But beyond that, you say "Reality". I am not asking to be a smart ass, I am seriously wondering, that way I can understand better why people feel the way they do.
I'm not, either. Do some research on how cops actually behave.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:57 AM NHFTHere in Florida, those of us who follow the laws love the cops, since the crime rate here is awful, and no matter where you are you're always wondering if the guy walking toward you is going to try and rod and kill you. So here... The cops as far as we can see doa great job. I can see how a lower crime state such as NH poeple can have a different view on the police.
The crime rate is "awful," which means the cops are going a "great job," is your contention?
If the cops were doing a great job, wouldn't the crime rate be low?
Ever gotten a traffic ticket?
Joe
The crime rate sucks due to the people the state allows to move and live here. They do a horrible job at keeping the crims off the street. The area of Florida which I live in also has a low amount of "good paying" jobs, so basicly those who have little education, and no motivation to better themselves choose the easy life of crime versus working for their money.
Yes I have gotten quite a few tickets. All but 1 was actually my fault. In fact, most of the time I was given a lower fine, or downgraded ticket due to how I communicated with the officer.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:06 PM NHFTThe crime rate sucks due to the people the state allows to move and live here. They do a horrible job at keeping the crims off the street. The area of Florida which I live in also has a low amount of "good paying" jobs, so basicly those who have little education, and no motivation to better themselves choose the easy life of crime versus working for their money.
But if the cops were so good, wouldn't they be able to lower the crime rate?
By the way, the actual numbers show that immigrants have either no effect on crime, or actually reduce the crime rate...
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:06 PM NHFTYes I have gotten quite a few tickets. All but 1 was actually my fault. In fact, most of the time I was given a lower fine, or downgraded ticket due to how I communicated with the officer.
So you, yourself, have been mugged by the thugs, and you're going to tell us how good they are? Would you comment the same way about a mugger without a badge? "Oh, he had a gun and threatened to kill me if I didn't pay him, but when I agreed to pay, he let me off by only taking half my money."
Would you say that about any other mugger? Why would a badge change that?
Any cop is willing to murder you for any reason, at any time. Try it. Just don't comply. When he lights those blue lights, he's saying, "pull over or die." So don't, and see how soon they have their guns out.
Joe
Quote from: MaineShark on January 23, 2011, 12:13 PM NHFT
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:06 PM NHFTThe crime rate sucks due to the people the state allows to move and live here. They do a horrible job at keeping the crims off the street. The area of Florida which I live in also has a low amount of "good paying" jobs, so basicly those who have little education, and no motivation to better themselves choose the easy life of crime versus working for their money.
But if the cops were so good, wouldn't they be able to lower the crime rate?
By the way, the actual numbers show that immigrants have either no effect on crime, or actually reduce the crime rate...
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:06 PM NHFTYes I have gotten quite a few tickets. All but 1 was actually my fault. In fact, most of the time I was given a lower fine, or downgraded ticket due to how I communicated with the officer.
So you, yourself, have been mugged by the thugs, and you're going to tell us how good they are? Would you comment the same way about a mugger without a badge? "Oh, he had a gun and threatened to kill me if I didn't pay him, but when I agreed to pay, he let me off by only taking half my money."
Would you say that about any other mugger? Why would a badge change that?
Any cop is willing to murder you for any reason, at any time. Try it. Just don't comply. When he lights those blue lights, he's saying, "pull over or die." So don't, and see how soon they have their guns out.
Joe
First off, immigrants do not lower crime, they may not negativley impact it a great deal, but I can tell you that a majority of our crime is done by illegals and those who come from a lower education background.. If you can provide non-biased information showing these statistics, I would love to be able to prove this opposite of the media, but it can't be done. FYI, I wasn't jsut talking about immigrants. I was including all people in that statement.
As for replying to the " shouldn't the police lower crime rate if they are doing a good job." remark. You are asking questions which can't be answered. Police do not lower crime. Policies which the larger government put in place (and can remove) are what will affect the crime rate, and these people in general. The police are just the guys who took the crappy job of trying to enforce the laws. (bad laws or not). I am not going to debate whether or not cop are criminals with you. You seem to want anarchy in the street, and you want to do anything you want with no recourse. You are saying that there is no need to for someone to make sure rules/laws are being followed. Hey show me one instance that total anarchy in a large society has worked, and I will bow to you and a gree with everything you say from now on. The way you look at the people who take on the responsibility to do their best to make sure you and your family stay protected at all times is scary to me. It's down right disturbing. I don't know what happened to you, and maybe I don't want to know.
I prefer a society with morals and rules which all can live by and abide by. There will have to be people to make sure those rules are being followed, since people in general cannot be trusted to police themselves due to our innability to care about anybody but ourselves. those of us who follow the rules given to us will NEVER have an issue with cops. ?Will the cops get it wrong sometimes?? HELL YES! DO THEY GET IT WRONG.... DUH! I still can't understand the extremist view on police.
Hmmm....some very typical posts with the same m.o.
I smell bacon.
Anyone up for a pig roast?
Not a cop promise you there. I do however come from a cop filled background. I WILL be moving to NH in June, I just have a hard time understanding the distrust many have with law enforcment
Ok maybe this will help appease me.
What do YOU want to see as government, your liberty and the people who enforce the rules/laws which are set forth.
Or are you saying government and laws are for schmucks?
ok then.... so... how's the weather?
Edit: 2:21. Ok why did it go quiet? Do you seriously hate talking to people whos opinion differs? I want my opinion to change, but that is only goin to happen if you all explain to me what is so bad about the cops and government up there. If you're just tired of talking about this, then just delete the post and I'll shut my mouth and abide by your rules like a good little boy.
Many here understand that governments have no legitimate authority over individuals. Others brought here by the FSP are looking for what is expressed in the Statement of Intent:
Statement of Intent
"I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the state of New Hampshire. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property"
The greater part of what all governments do is way beyond that. Cops in particular are predators. For the most part they are Law Enforcement Officers, not, Peace Officers. They don't obey many of the laws they enforce and they gang up against the public who are robbed to pay them, and they lie to everyone. I'll give you that 98% of them ruin it for the rest of them.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTFirst off, immigrants do not lower crime, they may not negativley impact it a great deal, but I can tell you that a majority of our crime is done by illegals and those who come from a lower education background.. If you can provide non-biased information showing these statistics, I would love to be able to prove this opposite of the media, but it can't be done.
You made the initial claim that immigrants are causing the crime. Prove your claim.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTAs for replying to the " shouldn't the police lower crime rate if they are doing a good job." remark. You are asking questions which can't be answered. Police do not lower crime. Policies which the larger government put in place (and can remove) are what will affect the crime rate, and these people in general. The police are just the guys who took the crappy job of trying to enforce the laws. (bad laws or not).
So, why does NH have less crime than FL?
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTI am not going to debate whether or not cop are criminals with you. You seem to want anarchy in the street, and you want to do anything you want with no recourse. You are saying that there is no need to for someone to make sure rules/laws are being followed.
There is but one actual law that a just society needs: do not initiate force/fraud against any other.
And anyone can enforce it.
Putting armed thugs, taken from the lowest dregs of society, into a position of authority over others is predation, not protection.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTHey show me one instance that total anarchy in a large society has worked, and I will bow to you and a gree with everything you say from now on.
Almost all of human history.
Statism is a new invention. Only a few thousand years old.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTThe way you look at the people who take on the responsibility to do their best to make sure you and your family stay protected at all times is scary to me. It's down right disturbing.
I don't look down on people who do their best to make sure me and my family are safe. I look down on cops.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTI prefer a society with morals and rules which all can live by and abide by. There will have to be people to make sure those rules are being followed, since people in general cannot be trusted to police themselves due to our innability to care about anybody but ourselves.
And yet the cops, chosen for their willingness to blindly obey any order they are given, without ever considering the morality of their actions, who demonstrate the worst that exists within humanity, will "police" the rest of us?
Mafiosos behave with more scruples than cops.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTthose of us who follow the rules given to us will NEVER have an issue with cops.
There's no one in America who isn't a multiple felon. The laws are written so that absolutely everyone has broken many of them, to give the cops some method to arrest you, any time they want. And if they don't happen to know which you broke, they'll just plant evidence of whatever they want to charge you with.
Joe
Shame on Joe. No cites or sources to back YOUR claims? C'mon brother...what good for that goose? ;)
Quote from: littlehawk on January 23, 2011, 04:01 PM NHFTShame on Joe. No cites or sources to back YOUR claims? C'mon brother...what good for that goose? ;)
The one making a claim is responsible for providing evidence. I refuted his claim. As soon as he provides evidence,
then I am responsible for providing my own.
Not like the evidence to support my refutation is any major secret; it was even posted on this forum, a few months back, IIRC.
Joe
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTThe police are just the guys who took the crappy job of trying to enforce the laws. (bad laws or not).
Why (in so many places) are there waiting lists years long for the "crappy jobs" like police hero and fire hero?
I don't want to pile on but its getting pretty hard not to.
OH Bullshit Joe!
You always use that copout. You state shit but never back it up.
Quote from: littlehawk on January 23, 2011, 04:18 PM NHFTOH Bullshit Joe!
You always use that copout. You state shit but never back it up.
Sure, I do.
You, of all posters here, are in no position to levy such charges.
Joe
just ONE of your millions:
"There's no one in America who isn't a multiple felon. "
bwirth says" Hey show me one instance that total anarchy in a large society has worked, and I will bow to you and a gree with everything you say from now on.
Joe answer: Almost all of human history.
Good answer? Joe, people are here just having discussions. It's not a full fledged debate with timers and judges and evidence and sources sited for every little thing. Why not show him one instance...a link, a quote etc. Have I not offered links, video etc? Yes I refuse to keep jumping through hoops for people who will never be satisfied but you on the otherhand always exercise the 5th when challenged. Why not put aside you homemade laws and try to communicate a bit.
Quote from: littlehawk on January 23, 2011, 04:32 PM NHFTjust ONE of your millions:
"There's no one in America who isn't a multiple felon. "
Millions? You can't even speak truthfully, when you're trying to claim that someone else is being less than truthful. It's truly sad.
In any case, the statement is patently true. There are hundreds of thousands of deranged laws in this country. No one can avoid breaking them. Often without even knowing they're doing it. Like this woman (http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/23/another-illinois-resident-char), facing major felony charges for recording the obstructions that the police were throwing up when she attempted to report an officer who sexually assaulted her.
Think she knew she would be facing down a decade and a half in prison, and was just such a hard-ass that she didn't care? Or did she not even realize that they had a felony to charge her with?
There are so many laws out there that you cannot possibly obey them all, all the time.
Quote from: littlehawk on January 23, 2011, 04:41 PM NHFTbwirth says" Hey show me one instance that total anarchy in a large society has worked, and I will bow to you and a gree with everything you say from now on.
Joe answer: Almost all of human history.
Good answer? Joe, people are here just having discussions. It's not a full fledged debate with timers and judges and evidence and sources sited for every little thing. Why not show him one instance...a link, a quote etc.
I did. I showed him tens of thousands of years of such instances. Statism dates from the agricultural revolution, when farmers were tied to the land, and couldn't just leave if some thug moved in and started demanding tribute, because they'd lose their year's crop. So, if one thug wants X amount in tribute, and another thug promises to keep the first thug away for half that, they jump on the deal. Pretty soon, they have kings and armies and cops.
Want some more? Pennsylvania was mostly anarchic for a good while. The Icelandic Commonwealth is another recent example.
Quote from: littlehawk on January 23, 2011, 04:41 PM NHFTHave I not offered links, video etc? Yes I refuse to keep jumping through hoops for people who will never be satisfied but you on the otherhand always exercise the 5th when challenged. Why not put aside you homemade laws and try to communicate a bit.
I probably provide more citations than any dozen typical posters, so your charge is without merit.
And I provide actual citations, not just "some guy on the Internet says this, so it must be true!" nonsense.
Joe
Quote from: MaineShark on January 23, 2011, 03:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTFirst off, immigrants do not lower crime, they may not negativley impact it a great deal, but I can tell you that a majority of our crime is done by illegals and those who come from a lower education background.. If you can provide non-biased information showing these statistics, I would love to be able to prove this opposite of the media, but it can't be done.
You made the initial claim that immigrants are causing the crime. Prove your claim.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTAs for replying to the " shouldn't the police lower crime rate if they are doing a good job." remark. You are asking questions which can't be answered. Police do not lower crime. Policies which the larger government put in place (and can remove) are what will affect the crime rate, and these people in general. The police are just the guys who took the crappy job of trying to enforce the laws. (bad laws or not).
So, why does NH have less crime than FL?
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTI am not going to debate whether or not cop are criminals with you. You seem to want anarchy in the street, and you want to do anything you want with no recourse. You are saying that there is no need to for someone to make sure rules/laws are being followed.
There is but one actual law that a just society needs: do not initiate force/fraud against any other.
And anyone can enforce it.
Putting armed thugs, taken from the lowest dregs of society, into a position of authority over others is predation, not protection.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTHey show me one instance that total anarchy in a large society has worked, and I will bow to you and a gree with everything you say from now on.
Almost all of human history.
Statism is a new invention. Only a few thousand years old.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTThe way you look at the people who take on the responsibility to do their best to make sure you and your family stay protected at all times is scary to me. It's down right disturbing.
I don't look down on people who do their best to make sure me and my family are safe. I look down on cops.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTI prefer a society with morals and rules which all can live by and abide by. There will have to be people to make sure those rules are being followed, since people in general cannot be trusted to police themselves due to our innability to care about anybody but ourselves.
And yet the cops, chosen for their willingness to blindly obey any order they are given, without ever considering the morality of their actions, who demonstrate the worst that exists within humanity, will "police" the rest of us?
Mafiosos behave with more scruples than cops.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTthose of us who follow the rules given to us will NEVER have an issue with cops.
There's no one in America who isn't a multiple felon. The laws are written so that absolutely everyone has broken many of them, to give the cops some method to arrest you, any time they want. And if they don't happen to know which you broke, they'll just plant evidence of whatever they want to charge you with.
Joe
[/quote
I see.... about the only other statement i would have to make then, is... You say almost all of human history people have lived in total Anarchy? I could be mistaken, but i am pretty sure, that no matter what society you bring up, there has always been a leader, and that leader has always had his... "thugs" who make sure the followers of the leader did what was required to be a part of said society.
Could those leaders have been corrupt?? Most likely at some point it happened, as they say... things never change.
However, judging by the comment i have read, you are suggesting that anarchy would work in todays world. In some instances it may, but then you have to consider many things which require a leader of some sort to take care of, or a group of leaders who happen to be REALLY good at what they do. Think of all of the things which are taken for granted today. Food, power/heat, fuel, health, clothing, etc.... Can many of these items be replaced or lived without?? You bet! Would you be willing to give them up? Could you support yourself and family without the things which governments and those like them provide?
I do not support our current form of government or many of it's laws. It may seem the opposite, but I look at things differently maybe. I viewmost of these things as necessary evils, can they be done away with? Yes, but at great sacrifice to our current way of life. Anarchy will never work, as there will always be those who want to lead, and will lead in some form or another.
The smarter and stronger of us will always take charge and lead, and maybe make tough decissions fo others either not willing or unable. Someone will always lead, and someone will always follow. With that said Anarchy in it's literal form is impossible.
Should government go back to running the things they are supposed to run and leave us be? Yes, I feel most people are more than capable of living their own lives without need of oppressive represntatives telling them what is right and wrong, and how to walk...
Quote from: John on January 23, 2011, 04:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 12:36 PM NHFTThe police are just the guys who took the crappy job of trying to enforce the laws. (bad laws or not).
Why (in so many places) are there waiting lists years long for the "crappy jobs" like police hero and fire hero?
I don't want to pile on but its getting pretty hard not to.
I don't know if you're for police/fire, or against with this comment.
If for: I made this statement as more of a bait and trap than anything. As it would seem that a great majority of those here seem to hate the police, and in certain circumstances I don't blame them, but taking instances from bad cops, (and there are alot of them) and them generalising all police in the same manor is as bad as when I said that illegals create the majority of the crime. It is a fact that many or most illegals who come to this country end up commiting violent crimes against citizens, as well as themselves. That ofcourse is due to things many times, which are out of the persons control.
Most people who become police start the journey with good intentions, they don't always end up as such.
If against: Apparently cops are scumbags or worse, so it must be a crappy job is the dregs of society are applying for it..yes?
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 06:05 PM NHFTas bad as when I said that illegals create the majority of the crime. It is a fact that many or most illegals who come to this country end up commiting violent crimes against citizens, as well as themselves. That ofcourse is due to things many times, which are out of the persons control.
Wow! Where did you learn all of this stuff?
Have you ever personally communicated with an "illegal"? Have you worked with any? Have you ever even know an "illegal"?
I kind of like most of the "illegals" I've know.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 05:50 PM NHFTI see.... about the only other statement i would have to make then, is... You say almost all of human history people have lived in total Anarchy? I could be mistaken, but i am pretty sure, that no matter what society you bring up, there has always been a leader, and that leader has always had his... "thugs" who make sure the followers of the leader did what was required to be a part of said society.
No, most of human history was lived by nomadic hunter-gatherers. They had no use for rulers.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 05:50 PM NHFTHowever, judging by the comment i have read, you are suggesting that anarchy would work in todays world. In some instances it may, but then you have to consider many things which require a leader of some sort to take care of, or a group of leaders who happen to be REALLY good at what they do. Think of all of the things which are taken for granted today. Food, power/heat, fuel, health, clothing, etc.... Can many of these items be replaced or lived without?? You bet! Would you be willing to give them up? Could you support yourself and family without the things which governments and those like them provide?
States don't provide. States take.
If someone steals the contents of my fridge, then gives me a single sandwich, I'm not exactly going to say that he "provided lunch."
The current government doesn't provide me with food, power, heat, fuel, healthcare, clothing, or anything else. All the government does in those areas is limit my choices and generally make things more expensive.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 05:50 PM NHFTI do not support our current form of government or many of it's laws. It may seem the opposite, but I look at things differently maybe. I viewmost of these things as necessary evils, can they be done away with? Yes, but at great sacrifice to our current way of life. Anarchy will never work, as there will always be those who want to lead, and will lead in some form or another.
The smarter and stronger of us will always take charge and lead, and maybe make tough decissions fo others either not willing or unable. Someone will always lead, and someone will always follow. With that said Anarchy in it's literal form is impossible.
I have no problem with folks wanting to lead. If someone truly excels in some field, I've little doubt that others will turn to him for leadership.
The problem is when someone wants to
rule.
I choose who leads me (if anyone). A ruler, on the other hand, shows up and declares that he's in charge, and his thugs will murder anyone who disagrees.
Leadership is determine, in general, based upon competence at the declared task. A "leading athlete" is someone who excels at athletics. A "leading scientist" is someone who excels at science. A "leading surgeon" is someone who excels at surgery.
All that rulership demonstrates is that one excels at thuggery.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 05:50 PM NHFTShould government go back to running the things they are supposed to run and leave us be? Yes, I feel most people are more than capable of living their own lives without need of oppressive represntatives telling them what is right and wrong, and how to walk...
Power corrupts. Any time power is centralized, it
will corrupt those who wield it. Having a small State is like having a small cancer... it might be small, now, but it will grow.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 06:05 PM NHFTAs it would seem that a great majority of those here seem to hate the police, and in certain circumstances I don't blame them, but taking instances from bad cops, (and there are alot of them) and them generalising all police in the same manor is as bad as when I said that illegals create the majority of the crime.
There aren't "a lot" of them. Find me an example (even one) of a cop who's been on the force more than a few hours without violating anyone's human rights.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 06:05 PM NHFTMost people who become police start the journey with good intentions, they don't always end up as such.
No, the majority of cops start out as kids who were bullies, and want to have carte blance to continue their bullying with legal immunity, or kids who were the victims of bullies, and want to get back at society.
Any group that is selected for conformity and ability to blindly follow orders, will always be such. Decent people who want to live peacefully and productively with their neighbors do not tend to have the character traits that you must possess to even get through the first interview.
Joe
I have worked with many in the past, and to be honest I liked them as well for the most part. However, due to civil and economic conditions and Floridas lack of heart, the illegals who are here have, not had the best time getting jobs. So just to live many have turned to crime. I am currently looking for my source for this info, but not having luck. I can tell you for a fact though, out of the 15 of which I worked with, all but one ended up in prison. They all were legitimate crimes, nothing was twisted or made up. Sad to say, they were nice guys, but I guess when you're struggling jsut to put food on the table, and you have limited options, and ofcourse a general distrust has been placed upon you, you don't have much choice but to bite the bullet and rob peoples homes, and in 2 cases commit violent rape.
Quote from: MaineShark on January 23, 2011, 06:31 PM NHFT
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 05:50 PM NHFTI see.... about the only other statement i would have to make then, is... You say almost all of human history people have lived in total Anarchy? I could be mistaken, but i am pretty sure, that no matter what society you bring up, there has always been a leader, and that leader has always had his... "thugs" who make sure the followers of the leader did what was required to be a part of said society.
No, most of human history was lived by nomadic hunter-gatherers. They had no use for rulers.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 05:50 PM NHFTHowever, judging by the comment i have read, you are suggesting that anarchy would work in todays world. In some instances it may, but then you have to consider many things which require a leader of some sort to take care of, or a group of leaders who happen to be REALLY good at what they do. Think of all of the things which are taken for granted today. Food, power/heat, fuel, health, clothing, etc.... Can many of these items be replaced or lived without?? You bet! Would you be willing to give them up? Could you support yourself and family without the things which governments and those like them provide?
States don't provide. States take.
If someone steals the contents of my fridge, then gives me a single sandwich, I'm not exactly going to say that he "provided lunch."
The current government doesn't provide me with food, power, heat, fuel, healthcare, clothing, or anything else. All the government does in those areas is limit my choices and generally make things more expensive.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 05:50 PM NHFTI do not support our current form of government or many of it's laws. It may seem the opposite, but I look at things differently maybe. I viewmost of these things as necessary evils, can they be done away with? Yes, but at great sacrifice to our current way of life. Anarchy will never work, as there will always be those who want to lead, and will lead in some form or another.
The smarter and stronger of us will always take charge and lead, and maybe make tough decissions fo others either not willing or unable. Someone will always lead, and someone will always follow. With that said Anarchy in it's literal form is impossible.
I have no problem with folks wanting to lead. If someone truly excels in some field, I've little doubt that others will turn to him for leadership.
The problem is when someone wants to rule.
I choose who leads me (if anyone). A ruler, on the other hand, shows up and declares that he's in charge, and his thugs will murder anyone who disagrees.
Leadership is determine, in general, based upon competence at the declared task. A "leading athlete" is someone who excels at athletics. A "leading scientist" is someone who excels at science. A "leading surgeon" is someone who excels at surgery.
All that rulership demonstrates is that one excels at thuggery.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 05:50 PM NHFTShould government go back to running the things they are supposed to run and leave us be? Yes, I feel most people are more than capable of living their own lives without need of oppressive represntatives telling them what is right and wrong, and how to walk...
Power corrupts. Any time power is centralized, it will corrupt those who wield it. Having a small State is like having a small cancer... it might be small, now, but it will grow.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 06:05 PM NHFTAs it would seem that a great majority of those here seem to hate the police, and in certain circumstances I don't blame them, but taking instances from bad cops, (and there are alot of them) and them generalising all police in the same manor is as bad as when I said that illegals create the majority of the crime.
There aren't "a lot" of them. Find me an example (even one) of a cop who's been on the force more than a few hours without violating anyone's human rights.
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 06:05 PM NHFTMost people who become police start the journey with good intentions, they don't always end up as such.
No, the majority of cops start out as kids who were bullies, and want to have carte blance to continue their bullying with legal immunity, or kids who were the victims of bullies, and want to get back at society.
Any group that is selected for conformity and ability to blindly follow orders, will always be such. Decent people who want to live peacefully and productively with their neighbors do not tend to have the character traits that you must possess to even get through the first interview.
Joe
For once, I can't really argue with any of that.
If you took that as literal i am sorry.....
P.S. Whats a jagaloon?
OK bwirth1999 you've convinced me that you are just trolling.
OK Mr. Ed I'll bite as well; Whats a jaggaloon?
Jagaloon = An adult that behaves in a consistently immature fashion. For example you can get away with Beevis and Butthead behavior at 14 or 15, but it doesn't fly at 35.
For example : A guy at 35 behaving like a jagaloon would likely never get any attention from the ladies and would have to go home to relieve his blue balls and jagaloon. Or be so desparate to be a funny guy he gives ridiculous examples to obscure words. Doh!
Disclaimer : the examples above are not meant as a depiction of any real persons, all references are purely fictional.
John I am not trolling, apparently though, Eds' posts are gone... If it was still here you would see what I was refering to when I had responded to him, with "If you took that as literal i am sorry.....".
I don't find being poor or less fortunate an excuse to commit crimes...
MaineShark thinks he can play judge, jury, and executioner and murder someone for slightly violating his personal conception of property rights.
Pots and kettles, my little jagaloons, pots and kettles. By your friends shall they know you
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 11:31 AM NHFTAre you saying that anyone who wants to make sure you're safe and that people who want to take advantage of you are dealt with,... are scumbags? I find that very disturbing.
A question relating to the previous statement.. do you guys not see the need for police?
At least once I have had a cop tell me he was doing something for my own safety. He was handcuffing me and hauling me off against my will.
I do not want cops in my life and don't want to support them anywhere in the world.
of course cops can be replaced by imagining REALLY HARD how wonderful a place the world can be
Quote from: Ed on January 24, 2011, 04:46 PM NHFTMaineShark thinks he can play judge, jury, and executioner and murder someone for slightly violating his personal conception of property rights.
Pots and kettles, my little jagaloons, pots and kettles. By your friends shall they know you
No, self-defense is not murder.
When some cop kills someone because that individual behaved contrary to arbitrary words on paper... that is murder.
Quote from: Ed on January 24, 2011, 07:28 PM NHFTof course cops can be replaced by imagining REALLY HARD how wonderful a place the world can be
The world isn't a perfect place. Eliminating State-empowered thuggery would make it a better place, though. Amateur thugs have nothing on official thugs.
Joe
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 24, 2011, 07:56 AM NHFT, Eds' posts are gone...
Very strange. I wonder why he took then down.
and there you have it, folks
you can murder a kid for walking across your lawn when you know he's not going to harm you
context:
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/7809843-post90.html (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/7809843-post90.html)
but it's the COPS and the government who are violent thugs
I didn't take my posts down - the mods must have taken it down - probably because libertarians can't really handle counter-arguments
I had a pretty funny post about the sociopath dance - it goes along with "we like to party" by the Vengaboys - because when you think about it, that kind of sociopathy is funny in a cosmic sense
Quote from: Ed on January 24, 2011, 07:28 PM NHFT
of course cops can be replaced by imagining REALLY HARD how wonderful a place the world can be
i had not thought of that idea, but it is a good one
if none of us fund cops and instead imagine good things, at least we will stop flogging ourselves and our neighbors :)
then we will be left with only the thugs that haven't been paid directly by us .... they would have to more openly steal it from us
http://reason.com/archives/2011/01/25/why-cops-arent-whistleblowers (http://reason.com/archives/2011/01/25/why-cops-arent-whistleblowers)
If you read enough of these kinds of reports, you can't seem to give cops the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Keep them all at arms length. No, make that further.
Cathleen
I have even met some pretty nice cops .... but they will put you in jail for stuff they say they don't believe in .... because it is their job and they are working for their bennies and pension.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on March 08, 2011, 07:46 AM NHFT
I have even met some pretty nice cops .... but they will put you in jail for stuff they say they don't believe in .... because it is their job and they are working for their bennies and pension.
The sad part is they might never get their pensions .
Quote from: Terror Australis on March 08, 2011, 09:01 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on March 08, 2011, 07:46 AM NHFT
I have even met some pretty nice cops .... but they will put you in jail for stuff they say they don't believe in .... because it is their job and they are working for their bennies and pension.
The sad part is they might never get their pensions .
We can only hope.
Quote from: Terror Australis on March 08, 2011, 09:01 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on March 08, 2011, 07:46 AM NHFT
I have even met some pretty nice cops .... but they will put you in jail for stuff they say they don't believe in .... because it is their job and they are working for their bennies and pension.
The sad part is they might never get their pensions .
No, the sad part is the atrocities they'll resort to when they don't.
i tell them every once in a while that nazis thought they had pensions coming too
Quote from: bwirth1999 on January 23, 2011, 06:36 PM NHFT
I have worked with many in the past, and to be honest I liked them as well for the most part. However, due to civil and economic conditions and Floridas lack of heart, the illegals who are here have, not had the best time getting jobs. So just to live many have turned to crime. I am currently looking for my source for this info, but not having luck. I can tell you for a fact though, out of the 15 of which I worked with, all but one ended up in prison. They all were legitimate crimes, nothing was twisted or made up. Sad to say, they were nice guys, but I guess when you're struggling jsut to put food on the table, and you have limited options, and ofcourse a general distrust has been placed upon you, you don't have much choice but to bite the bullet and rob peoples homes, and in 2 cases commit violent rape.
Don't most undocumented workers migrate to the US due to being recruited by relatives who have found them a job? That's been my experience. That's the motivation for immigrating in the first place. Perhaps they end up in prison because of proven bias against them by law enforcement ("Those shiftless illegals must be guilty" i.e. guilt by association). You claim to know the exacts facts in each of the alleged crimes by the each of the 14 undocumented workers in your example, further claiming nothing was "twisted or made up." Upon what basis do you make such claims? Did you examine all 14 case files? Did you talk to the arresting officers and defendants? Did you attend 14 trials or read entire transcripts? I would accept your saying they were convicted of X crimes (since that can easily be validated by a public records check). But to claim so apparent omniscient knowledge concerning their cases and guilt or innocence seems very farfetched. Am I the only one who thinks this?
I am mischievous. ;D
Thanks!
Quote from: Sheep Fuzzy Wool on May 19, 2011, 11:42 AM NHFT
I am mischievous. ;D
Thanks!
So long Gordon... wished I'd gotten to know you. George Harrison's Nephew
Taxman messed with as he suffered through cancer. http://www.myspace.com/sheepfuzzywool/music/songs/smartfredronpaulgeorgejohnsfw-15424164 (http://www.myspace.com/sheepfuzzywool/music/songs/smartfredronpaulgeorgejohnsfw-15424164)
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