I have a checking and savings account with USAA which is meant for military family members. The closest branch is in San Antonio and I live north of Austin. It's the only branch that I know of in the US. I like it but it would be nice if I had a bank account that was close I could drive to to put cash in my account. But this is beside the point of this thread. I was thinking of opening an account with a local bank but not if I have to provide a SSN. If I am to burn my card and not use the number any more, how can I manage with out the evil #?
Right now I don't have a job and all I have is a high school diploma. So my second question is what kind of jobs can I get with just a high school diploma and I don't have to provide a SSN? Is there some guide some where I can learn how to manage my life with out a SSN? Any help would be greatly appreciated. If I can do all these things then I will burn my SS card.
While I'm here I might as well ask this as well. I'm a FSP member but because I don't have a job I also don't have any money, I don't even have my own car yet. When would it even be plausible to move to New Hampshire from a economics point of view?
My dad keeps suggesting jobs but the ones he wants me to do are all with be corporations like Dell for example and I keep telling him I'm a small business kind of person and have no interest in working for a big company. Right now I'm studying to take the A+ exam, but I find it a real pain in the ass. It seems to test how well your memory is from reading books, not how well you are at troubleshooting a PC in real life and I've never been a very good test taker. It would be a nice if some one with a small business would hire me and not care about "education" or my SSN. I've allways been good at troubleshooting PC problems sense I was 15. Friends and family allways come to me to do things for them or fix something. Yet this A+ practice test I've been doing makes me feel like a retard. So it's not that I don't know how to do my stuff, I just have a crappy memory and not great at test or "schooling".
I don't know any FSP members in my area nor do I want to be a burden on any one to help me move up there. I'd rather be able to support my self when moving up there from Texas. But I have no real roots here and I'd really love to move up there as soon as possible. What should I do in my situation?
Russell would probably be the best one to give advice on your questions.
With the long-term growth of the Tuath, things should be a lot easier for folks to get by without "official papers" >:D
Russell? Tuath?
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on November 24, 2005, 11:17 PM NHFT
Russell?? Tuath?
Russell and Kat started this forum. ;)
Tuath: suggested reading
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=2305.0
I can't think of any way to have a checking account without a SS#. But you are on the right track for how to make money. Maybe you can fix friends and families computers and just keep expanding your customer base as you do good work. Maybe someone would hire you for your skills and find a way to pay you. :)
Become and remain self employed. Try to work for cash. When you accept a check go to their bank with it. Try to barter. Perhaps offering your PC talents to a car dealership in trade for a cheap car.
you can try giving 000-00-0000 for a SS# to get a bank acct, but that would probably raise a bunch of red flags with the Feds.
Quote from: SWilliams on November 25, 2005, 10:20 AM NHFT
you can try giving 000-00-0000 for a SS# to get a bank acct, but that would probably raise a bunch of red flags with the Feds.
What about? 101-01-0101 >:D
you can put your money in an overseas bank account. They will issue you a VISA card, which you can use. Granted ... its not exactly easy to access, but it is doable if you don't want to use the card number.
Another trick (this one involves getting another govt ID, so its not much good if you're wanting to go completely ID # free) is to simply file for a free business ID number from the IRS. Make up any business name you want. Then open a business checking account.
Caleb
Quote from: calibaba77 on November 25, 2005, 05:24 PM NHFT
Another trick (this one involves getting another govt ID, so its not much good if you're wanting to go completely ID # free) is to simply file for a free business ID number from the IRS. Make up any business name you want. Then open a business checking account.
Caleb
This seems a good idea. You give the bank an IRS-approved number, one which you can discard at any time. Close the account, stop using that number, and repeat the whole process again with new # whenever you want. This would seem to eliminate the problem of having one specific number attached to you for life.
It is called an EID (Employer ID).
In NH, my experience with obtaining a business account has been: you have to be incorporated with the State of NH to get an EID to get a business account. I own 3 LLC names in NH with 3 corresponding accounts at Bank of America, Manchester branch. I do not recall having to provide my SS# for any of this, but bear in mind that using/having a business creates a whole new book of concerns from a taxation and income perspective.
Best advice I can offer is: choose your battles wisely--you have the rest of your life to work for your causes, so don't be your own worst enemy.
I wonder if people said to each other "choose your battles" in Germany in the 30's
Yes they did, and, some of them got out.
Are you saying we should leave the country rather than stay in NH and fight it?
Quote from: katdillon on November 26, 2005, 09:56 AM NHFT
Are you saying we should leave the country rather than stay in NH and fight it?
Just leave all the other states and come here :D
Sometimes we look at each other and wonder what is the best course of action ..... and it seems right to stay here and fight them for our benefit and everyone else here in america.
What do you guys think?
It seems like we are in a very similar situation as when Germany wanted to expand their empire and were putting more controls in place.
Quote from: katdillon on November 26, 2005, 09:56 AM NHFT
Are you saying we should leave the country rather than stay in NH and fight it?
No.
Ominous Parallels (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452011175/104-0242095-0369566?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance) by Leonard Peikoff
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=729.msg8901#msg8901
Quote from: russellkanning on November 26, 2005, 09:03 AM NHFT
I wonder if people said to each other "choose your battles" in Germany in the 30's
I wonder how many people actually consider the source and the audience whilst dispensing and receiving advice on the interweb?
Quote from: Heyduke on November 26, 2005, 08:56 PM NHFT
I wonder how many people actually consider the source and the audience whilst dispensing and receiving advice on the interweb?
I don't quite know what you mean. Can you explain?
Quote from: russellkanning on November 27, 2005, 07:16 AM NHFT
Quote from: Heyduke on November 26, 2005, 08:56 PM NHFT
I wonder how many people actually consider the source and the audience whilst dispensing and receiving advice on the interweb?
I don't quite know what you mean. Can you explain?
Of course I can explain, but that does not mean that what you read is what I mean.
My point is simply that posters on a web forum can at best make assumptions regarding the source of posts and/or responses to enquiries. It is my experience that too many are in too big a hurry to post The Answer or The Solution to consider that The Answer or The Solution are not necessarily applicable. Similarly, those seeking information or suggestions are at risk of receiving bad advice.
ergo--Consider the Source; Consider the Audience
How is that?
and now I counter with: What does Germany in the 1930's have to do with this?
I think that sometimes we give in to the oppressive government to get along for another day and we are getting pushed into a police state. I think that our police state matches the nazi one more than other examples.
Quote from: russellkanning on November 28, 2005, 07:11 AM NHFT
I think that sometimes we give in to the oppressive government to get along for another day and we are getting pushed into a police state. I think that our police state matches the nazi one more than other examples.
I concur.
I do worry that the potential of too many is wasted by cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
At the very least I feel that we should all advocate education and enlightenment before action. Civil disobedience has its place.
I think we should educate people ..... this action thing is overrated.
Russell, you need to change your mood to "sarcastic" :P
Quote from: Heyduke on November 28, 2005, 07:26 PM NHFTI do worry that the potential of too many is wasted by cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
At the very least I feel that we should all advocate education and enlightenment before action. Civil disobedience has its place.
It is way too dangerous to actually say "no" to the government .... even when they are doing wrong things to us. Maybe it is best to keep using our SS#s during our lifetime, so we can maintain our lifestyles. Maybe our kids can refuse to be numbered and taxed. But that might not be a good idea either. We don't want them to be locked out of any opportunities.
I guess we should just educate people about how rotten SS#s are and write letters to our Representatives. Direct action against the government is just too risky.
Quote from: russellkanning on November 29, 2005, 07:12 AM NHFT
Quote from: Heyduke on November 28, 2005, 07:26 PM NHFTI do worry that the potential of too many is wasted by cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
At the very least I feel that we should all advocate education and enlightenment before action. Civil disobedience has its place.
It is way too dangerous to actually say "no" to the government .... even when they are doing wrong things to us. Maybe it is best to keep using our SS#s during our lifetime, so we can maintain our lifestyles. Maybe our kids can refuse to be numbered and taxed. But that might not be a good idea either. We don't want them to be locked out of any opportunities.
I guess we should just educate people about how rotten SS#s are and write letters to our Representatives. Direct action against the government is just too risky.
best bet is to be a luddite--just toss that technology straight jacket and its narcissistic trappings right out the window. real change is best gotten from the muddy fields of discontent with ploughshares. hell...you could be a modern day Shay...I've got my pulaski, let's march!
Quote from: russellkanning on November 29, 2005, 07:12 AM NHFT
Quote from: Heyduke on November 28, 2005, 07:26 PM NHFTI do worry that the potential of too many is wasted by cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
At the very least I feel that we should all advocate education and enlightenment before action. Civil disobedience has its place.
It is way too dangerous to actually say "no" to the government .... even when they are doing wrong things to us. Maybe it is best to keep using our SS#s during our lifetime, so we can maintain our lifestyles. Maybe our kids can refuse to be numbered and taxed. But that might not be a good idea either. We don't want them to be locked out of any opportunities.
I guess we should just educate people about how rotten SS#s are and write letters to our Representatives. Direct action against the government is just too risky.
What was that line...?
"Well...the world needs ditchdiggers too..."
Quote from: katdillon on November 26, 2005, 09:56 AM NHFT
Are you saying we should leave the country rather than stay in NH and fight it?
There aren't many places in the world that are as free, or free-er than NH. It's not like there's some libertarian paradise island everywhere. Arguably the most libertarian places in the world, apart from NH, are Liechtenstain and Monaco. There seems to be a correlation between small countries and libertarianism.
You forgot Costa Rica (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIC,HPIC:2005-35,HPIC:en&q=costa+rica+libertarian)!
Whatever happened to the guy who started this thread? Have THEY gotten to him already?
Quote from: burnthebeautiful on December 07, 2005, 06:05 PM NHFTThere seems to be a correlation between small countries and libertarianism.
Maybe we need to make NH it's own country and then split into small pieces. :)
Quote from: patmccotter on December 07, 2005, 06:12 PM NHFT
You forgot Costa Rica (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIC,HPIC:2005-35,HPIC:en&q=costa+rica+libertarian)!
It's not very free. The government is controlled by socialist. But, it does have good health insurance for low costs.
I'm still here. I was just thinking. If I was to not use my SSN any more then I would go all the way and try to opt out of Social Security. I just don't want to burn my card. I want to get rid of the number all together. Meaning I want to goto the social security office and tell them, "I want out, cancel my membership, delete my number". Why do I half ass job. Go all the way.
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 08, 2005, 01:07 AM NHFT
I'm still here. I was just thinking. If I was to not use my SSN any more then I would go all the way and try to opt out of Social Security. I just don't want to burn my card. I want to get rid of the number all together. Meaning I want to goto the social security office and tell them, "I want out, cancel my membership, delete my number". Why do I half ass job. Go all the way.
I like the idea.
I didn't do that because I don't think they listen, when you want out.
I was just worried that they had hauled you away. ;)
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 08, 2005, 01:07 AM NHFT
I'm still here.? I was just thinking.? If I was to not use my SSN any more then I would go all the way and try to opt out of Social Security.? I just don't want to burn my card.? I want to get rid of the number all together.? Meaning I want to goto the social security office and tell them, "I want out, cancel my membership, delete my number".? Why do I half ass job.? Go all the way.
Hello Tex,
You are going to be presented with many options regarding SS#. IMO, I would begin *today* (if you have not) studying the decisions of our representatives and judges RE: SS#. You can find a law library nearby and learn slowly at first, maybe even write your own interpretation of legislation, courts' opinions, lay persons' opinions, and so on.
This alone may sound extremely boring or maybe too much effort for such a small number. You may want to tie it into another project that is meaningful to your life. Maybe start a Yahoo group that chronicles your baby-steps while you investigate SS#. Maybe ask russell and co. for your own thread for SS# chronicles de AvatarofVirgo.
I started at cornell's law website years ago as I was attempting to understand what % of my property the federal government had entitled itself to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/
Once on this page, you can choose "law by source or jurisdiction", in which case you can find "federal". From here, you can... ;) paruse ;) the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) which have 50 titles. Or, the U.S. Code from the Legislative Branch with 50 titles as well. Social Security Administration is also listed.
Also under this link, you will find a topic that is discussed within this nhunderground as well:
"June 23 - U.S. Supreme Court decision in Kelo v. City of New London, expanding Fifth-Amendment authorized eminent domain property seizures to economic development..."
In reference to an earlier post of yours, you had stated that you have had difficulty learning for regurgitation. I poke fun at a prevalent genre of teaching methods which encourage one to memorize the expected answers and regurgitate them onto paper at regular time intervals. (Many have seen on educational TV an arctic wolf successfully regurgitate prey-turned-meal, so this method is effective in some contexts.) :P
I personally would support (like a cheerleader) a thread of your own here on NHunderground as a place for you to formulate, in your own words, your SS# discoveries. The adventure may take you a few years, and the beginning may be very slow, but well worth the investment days, months, quarters, years, and decades from now.
What do you say?
Quote from: olehenry on December 09, 2005, 10:50 AM NHFT
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 08, 2005, 01:07 AM NHFT
I'm still here.? I was just thinking.? If I was to not use my SSN any more then I would go all the way and try to opt out of Social Security.? I just don't want to burn my card.? I want to get rid of the number all together.? Meaning I want to goto the social security office and tell them, "I want out, cancel my membership, delete my number".? Why do I half ass job.? Go all the way.
Hello Tex,
You are going to be presented with many options regarding SS#.? IMO, I would begin *today* (if you have not) studying the decisions of our representatives and judges RE: SS#.? You can find a law library nearby and learn slowly at first, maybe even write your own interpretation of legislation, courts' opinions, lay persons' opinions, and so on.
This alone may sound extremely boring or maybe too much effort for such a small number.? You may want to tie it into another project that is meaningful to your life.? Maybe start a Yahoo group that chronicles your baby-steps while you investigate SS#.? Maybe ask russell and co. for your own thread for SS# chronicles de AvatarofVirgo.
I started at cornell's law website years ago as I was attempting to understand what % of my property the federal government had entitled itself to:? http://www.law.cornell.edu/
Once on this page, you can choose "law by source or jurisdiction", in which case you can find "federal".? From here, you can... ;)? paruse? ;) the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) which have 50 titles.? Or, the U.S. Code from the Legislative Branch with 50 titles as well.? Social Security Administration is also listed.
Also under this link, you will find a topic that is discussed within this nhunderground as well:
"June 23 - U.S. Supreme Court decision in Kelo v. City of New London, expanding Fifth-Amendment authorized eminent domain property seizures to economic development..."
In reference to an earlier post of yours, you had stated that you have had difficulty learning for regurgitation.? I poke fun at a prevalent genre of teaching methods which encourage one to memorize the expected answers and regurgitate them onto paper at regular time intervals.? (Many have seen on educational TV an arctic wolf successfully regurgitate prey-turned-meal, so this method is effective in some contexts.)? :P
I personally would support (like a cheerleader) a thread of your own here on NHunderground as a place for you to formulate, in your own words, your SS# discoveries.? The adventure may take you a few years, and the beginning may be very slow, but well worth the investment days, months, quarters, years, and decades from now.
What do you say??
Right now my priority is getting a job and buying a car and getting my own place. I want a job that I don't have to provide my SSN, take a damn drug test or have a back ground check. I also want to find a bank I can have a checking account with, with out giving out my SSN.
Now if you can help me do all those things, then awesome.
As for learning a whole lot of useless laws, I'll leave that up to lawyers. Politicians change the laws when ever it suits them so it seems useless to remember even half of them.
I just want to live my life with out the "system".
I totally agree with you man.
Then why not do without the bank account, too.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 09, 2005, 09:32 PM NHFT
Then why not do without the bank account, too.
I like to order stuff offline. I get all my computer stuff from online. I need a credit card for that.
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 09, 2005, 11:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 09, 2005, 09:32 PM NHFT
Then why not do without the bank account, too.
I like to order stuff offline. I get all my computer stuff from online. I need a credit card for that.
I believe there are cash-based debit cards.
Quote from: KBCraig on December 09, 2005, 11:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 09, 2005, 11:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 09, 2005, 09:32 PM NHFT
Then why not do without the bank account, too.
I like to order stuff offline.? I get all my computer stuff from online.? I need a credit card for that.
I believe there are cash-based debit cards.
That's basically what I have. I don't have a "real" credit card. I meant to say debit card my bank gave me for my checking account. If that's what you where talking about.
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 10, 2005, 04:58 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on December 09, 2005, 11:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 09, 2005, 11:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 09, 2005, 09:32 PM NHFT
Then why not do without the bank account, too.
I like to order stuff offline. I get all my computer stuff from online. I need a credit card for that.
I believe there are cash-based debit cards.
That's basically what I have. I don't have a "real" credit card. I meant to say debit card my bank gave me for my checking account. If that's what you where talking about.
No, I meant ones that can work like telephone calling cards, or a Wal Mart gift card. I don't know of a source, but I've heard they can be had.
Kevin
Quote from: KBCraig on December 10, 2005, 05:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 10, 2005, 04:58 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on December 09, 2005, 11:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 09, 2005, 11:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 09, 2005, 09:32 PM NHFT
Then why not do without the bank account, too.
I like to order stuff offline.? I get all my computer stuff from online.? I need a credit card for that.
I believe there are cash-based debit cards.
That's basically what I have.? I don't have a "real" credit card.? I meant to say debit card my bank gave me for my checking account.? If that's what you where talking about.
No, I meant ones that can work like telephone calling cards, or a Wal Mart gift card. I don't know of a source, but I've heard they can be had.
Kevin
Prepaid Credit Cards. Some convenience stores have them available.
Quote from: KBCraig on December 10, 2005, 05:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 10, 2005, 04:58 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on December 09, 2005, 11:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 09, 2005, 11:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 09, 2005, 09:32 PM NHFT
Then why not do without the bank account, too.
I like to order stuff offline.? I get all my computer stuff from online.? I need a credit card for that.
I believe there are cash-based debit cards.
That's basically what I have.? I don't have a "real" credit card.? I meant to say debit card my bank gave me for my checking account.? If that's what you where talking about.
No, I meant ones that can work like telephone calling cards, or a Wal Mart gift card. I don't know of a source, but I've heard they can be had.
Kevin
Cool, I'll have to look that up later.
I'll have to check, too. If they truly are a cash-based anonymous "piece of trash fake visa or mastercard debit card", to quote Clark Howard, then they're perfect for shopping online, or anywhere else a "non-banking" person would profit from a "credit" card.
Kevin
Avatar I think there could be a market for transporting stuff to the Boston area from Nashua NH. Prices in Nashua are almost as cheap as Dallas, but Boston area prices, just 40 mi. away, are about 50% higher than Nashua. Also there is no sales tax in NH of course so you'd save them another 5% that way.
you coul charge 10% markup and save them boo koo money,
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 09, 2005, 06:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: olehenry on December 09, 2005, 10:50 AM NHFT
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 08, 2005, 01:07 AM NHFT
I'm still here.? I was just thinking.? If I was to not use my SSN any more then I would go all the way and try to opt out of Social Security.? I just don't want to burn my card.? I want to get rid of the number all together.? Meaning I want to goto the social security office and tell them, "I want out, cancel my membership, delete my number".? Why do I half ass job.? Go all the way.
<snipped my post> (olehenry)
Right now my priority is getting a job and buying a car and getting my own place.? I want a job that I don't have to provide my SSN, take a damn drug test or have a back ground check.? I also want to find a bank I can have a checking account with, with out giving out my SSN.
[You run into a problem here with "job that I don't have to provide my ssn". There are nearly 280 million people within the "USA" borders who supposedly support the use of force from thousands of armed men and women to ensure that you comply with the laws. No doubt, the USA is big enough that one can hide from the laws and operate small underground relationships.
For example, income: In america, if you trade *any* value for value (and it is not listed as an exemption) you are required by the authorities to decide market value for the trade and list it as income to be taxed. IMO, if you're a big enough fish (lots of trading, especially in FRN's) you'd soon be on a list, then in court, then jailed.
The reason I suggest learning about the "enemy" is that you would be better equipped to choose your battles. IMO, some actions are riskier than others, and losing liberty (it's not freedom in USA, it's liberty) or life over a relatively small disagreement may not be worth the trade.
Additionally, knowing what occurs in the courts allows you to further tweak your strategy in case you are arrested one day. -- Olehenry]
Now if you can help me do all those things, then awesome.
[I would only help if the exchange were mutually beneficial. Not sure that I'd want to be in the same corner with you if your strategy was to point a gun at the government officials while yelling, "I'm a free man!" I know a little about the law and have some experience with strategic avoidance of taxation. If you provide a service or product I want, I may be able to help you out by trading with you. Otherwise, I cannot help with the SSN-free bank or license for car, nor do I have property which you may rent or purchase. -- Olehenry]
As for learning a whole lot of useless laws, I'll leave that up to lawyers.? Politicians change the laws when ever it suits them so it seems useless to remember even half of them.
[I agree, memorizing most of them would be a waste of time. However, being prepared to defend yourself in a court after you've decided to go driving on USA territory without a license to operate, etc. may be worth the effort. Besides, these laws change very little over the years.
Big questions: do you plan on being underground to the day you die? Would you rather fight the system from inside or outside, or a little of both? Or do you want to ignore that such a (powerful) system exists? --Olehenry]
I just want to live my life with out the "system".
[My best to you as you learn to deal w/ Earth and her many States. --Olehenry]
I thought I would ressurrect this thread because the subject is timely. Sorry about the blathering - Please bear with me.
I have lived completely without a ssn, DL, checking/savings for years. I can tell you it is a pain in the arse. Lot's of things you can't do, not many things you can do. In my case - anxiety every time I drive my car ('specially with the kids aboard), Wife constantly crabbing about no money, no flights on shiny airplanes, no time spent in hotel rooms.....etc. You get the idea. Think about it. What CAN you do without a SSN/DL. Walk around with your finger in your belly button, that's about it.
I recently gave in to wife's admonitions to "come back to the fold" so I dusted off the SSN that I cancelled (Brent-Emory..Johnson method) years ago. Got the DL with no problem just by reciting the number, so apparently the government refuses to recognize cancellation in any form. Applying for a credit/debit card is is different matter. So is checking/savings. The mantra now is The Patriot Act. You don't submit a SSN, you can't play in any reindeer games. The refusal letter specifically cites The Patriot Act.
I applied online for what looked like a good bet for a debit card and I got back that they wanted a COPY OF MY SS CARD, AND A RECENT UTILITY BILL FAXED TO THEM. Like an idiot, I did and they say they never got it. They wanted me to re-send. I refused. I tried another company and they wanted the same thing. I did not send this time. My wife applied and got it without any hiccup. Apparently SSN "cancellation", although entirely without teeth can get you on to some secret "person of interest" list. And that's just for a DEBIT CARD FORCRYSAKES. Pre-loaded, one time use cards are the only answer for the time being.
I'm probably not breaking any news here - Commerce has become the lap dog of the government, and "our" government has become entirely autonomous, and acts outside of the will of the people. You stick your head above the foxhole in 2006, pucker up.
I'm going to NH in 2007 to try and restore as much of what has been taken away from us as I can - in my short lifetime. I'll have to sacrifice alot. My family will not go with me, divorce, and I'm starting from scratch at 46, but the potential benefits outweigh the cost. Can I afford to go? No. Can I afford NOT TO is the real question. The chance of failure is much, much greater if I stay here. Pretty simple math. What kind of world DO I want to leave to my kids? Not this one.
We all need to go there and support each other so that none of us has to go it alone. THEN there's a chance we can repeal The Patriot Act, and all other un-constitutional laws, codes, stautes, and governmental bodies as we can, and do away with that damned number.
Just my 2 cents.
CoffeeSeven steps off of his soap box
I like driving without a license ... it gives you that road trip movie/devil-may-care/rebel with a cause thrill of being free and stickin it to the man.
It was more fun in my 66 Mustang, but we can't have everything.
You can get on a plane flight without any problems with no ssn.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on November 26, 2005, 12:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on November 26, 2005, 09:56 AM NHFT
Are you saying we should leave the country rather than stay in NH and fight it?
No.
"just exactly where we goin I can not say but, we might even, leave the USA. . . cause it's a brand new game and I don't wanna playyyyy"
Quote from: coffeeseven on December 31, 2006, 05:47 AM NHFT
I thought I would ressurrect this thread because the subject is timely. Sorry about the blathering - Please bear with me.
I have lived completely without a ssn, DL, checking/savings for years. I can tell you it is a pain in the arse. Lot's of things you can't do, not many things you can do. In my case - anxiety every time I drive my car ('specially with the kids aboard), Wife constantly crabbing about no money, no flights on shiny airplanes, no time spent in hotel rooms.....etc. You get the idea. Think about it. What CAN you do without a SSN/DL. Walk around with your finger in your belly button, that's about it.
I recently gave in to wife's admonitions to "come back to the fold" so I dusted off the SSN that I cancelled (Brent-Emory..Johnson method) years ago. Got the DL with no problem just by reciting the number, so apparently the government refuses to recognize cancellation in any form. Applying for a credit/debit card is is different matter. So is checking/savings. The mantra now is The Patriot Act. You don't submit a SSN, you can't play in any reindeer games. The refusal letter specifically cites The Patriot Act.
I applied online for what looked like a good bet for a debit card and I got back that they wanted a COPY OF MY SS CARD, AND A RECENT UTILITY BILL FAXED TO THEM. Like an idiot, I did and they say they never got it. They wanted me to re-send. I refused. I tried another company and they wanted the same thing. I did not send this time. My wife applied and got it without any hiccup. Apparently SSN "cancellation", although entirely without teeth can get you on to some secret "person of interest" list. And that's just for a DEBIT CARD FORCRYSAKES. Pre-loaded, one time use cards are the only answer for the time being.
I'm probably not breaking any news here - Commerce has become the lap dog of the government, and "our" government has become entirely autonomous, and acts outside of the will of the people. You stick your head above the foxhole in 2006, pucker up.
I'm going to NH in 2007 to try and restore as much of what has been taken away from us as I can - in my short lifetime. I'll have to sacrifice alot. My family will not go with me, divorce, and I'm starting from scratch at 46, but the potential benefits outweigh the cost. Can I afford to go? No. Can I afford NOT TO is the real question. The chance of failure is much, much greater if I stay here. Pretty simple math. What kind of world DO I want to leave to my kids? Not this one.
We all need to go there and support each other so that none of us has to go it alone. THEN there's a chance we can repeal The Patriot Act, and all other un-constitutional laws, codes, stautes, and governmental bodies as we can, and do away with that damned number.
Just my 2 cents.
CoffeeSeven steps off of his soap box
coffee,
I am both heartened and saddened by your confessional. You obviously made the moral libertarian choice years ago not wishing to be a number, and yet you have decided to "come back to the fold?" :o :-[
Sorry that you felt so deprived for so long doing what so many here only dream of. I too have gone many years outside the official numbering/licensing/indentured servant system, but I have only seldom felt any small twinges of retrospective regret for not being able to "play the game," but I have experienced an almost daily sense of exhilaration assuming individual responsibility and personal liberty.
Perhaps it's all good to part the ways with the wife who nagged you back into the maw! Best wishes in liberty!
Maineac, It made me sick to my stomach at first, LITERALLY. I had some pretty deep self loathing. It took me 6 months after I told her I was going to do it, to do it. To be fair to her, It was partly selfish too. I eventually rationalised it this way: I aspire to run for office when I get to NH. Without the DL I can't even register to vote. At least that's how it is here. It's also hard to campaign from the inside of a jail cell. I've spent plenty of time there. The last time was a few months ago. A taste of pavement + guns drawn = Are we having fun yet?
It's my opinion that I would be in a better position to fight "the system" from inside the system. Just my opinion.
I dunno about the road trip movie Russell. Even Brent Johnson keeps license plates on his car. I'd like to organize an annual drive to the capitol and back without license plates as a demonstration, and work on being the first state to rescind license plates (fat chance*), but day to day with the kids in the back? If it's just me it's one thing, kids, another. When cops arrest you and call DCFS because you can't reach your S.O., or whatever wrinkle might arise, it's a nightmare getting your kids back. We have a pretty bloodthirsty DCFS here. I wonder how they are in NH. ???
*We're going to have to take the whole thing down, government that is. superstructure and all, and rebuild from the ground up. "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it...."
Quote from: KBCraig on December 11, 2005, 02:48 AM NHFT
I'll have to check, too. If they truly are a cash-based anonymous "piece of trash fake visa or mastercard debit card", to quote Clark Howard, then they're perfect for shopping online, or anywhere else a "non-banking" person would profit from a "credit" card.
Kevin
Here in Michigan I found one bank that issues the type of card to look for. It's called a 'gift' card...mine had the visa logo. It is a debit card technically, you charge it for the amount you pay the bank teller plus a few dollars for the transaction...and then when you use it online or anywhere for that matter...you tell the cashier to process it like a 'credit' card. Using the word 'gift' is the key to finding what you need. They don't work to pay for 'porn' sites...but that's a small price to pay for the usage and benefits the card offers :)
Normally, you ask for a credit or debit card...they pull out the long forms and tell you it will take several days to process. With the 'gift' card...if they participate...they have the 'blank' gift cards ready on site to be charged. I use them now when I have to order some ink and get it faster then mailing a US postal money order in payment
AvatarofVirgo...As far as the SSN is concerned: 1) It was suggested you do some research. I believe your response was you'd basically be happier if somebody else did it 'for you'. You need to do some research of your own...it's your action(s) ultimately that will have consequences...and you won't be alone...the SSN is a big issue to people (or is it just me since I live without the number :) ).
The social security administration will not honor any 'removal' requests. And since they issued the number in response to an application (SS-5) only the SSA can 'delete' a number from the computer system of records. It boils down to writing them...asking what law(s) require you use the number to receive (drivers license, passport, bank account...or whatever the issue is) and give them 30 days to respond or you will not use the number. Again, they probably won't answer (if they do...PLEASE post the response). Use it or don't ... it's just a personal choice now...and it does have consequences!
Quote from: AmerTownCrier on January 01, 2007, 11:10 PM NHFT
Here in Michigan I found one bank that issues the type of card to look for. It's called a 'gift' card...mine had the visa logo. It is a debit card technically, you charge it for the amount you pay the bank teller plus a few dollars for the transaction...and then when you use it online or anywhere for that matter...you tell the cashier to process it like a 'credit' card. Using the word 'gift' is the key to finding what you need. They don't work to pay for 'porn' sites...but that's a small price to pay for the usage and benefits the card offers :)
Normally, you ask for a credit or debit card...they pull out the long forms and tell you it will take several days to process. With the 'gift' card...if they participate...they have the 'blank' gift cards ready on site to be charged. I use them now when I have to order some ink and get it faster then mailing a US postal money order in payment
You can find these cards all over the place these days. I saw them in Office Depot the other day. Most AAA offices sell them. The local mall sells them. I hear they're even in some 7-Eleven stores.
I once used one of these cards at a Safeway in Oregon. Now Safeway, when you use a card, would print your name on the receipt in very large letters, and the cashier, in some misguided attempt to be "personal," would read the name and say something like "Thanks for coming in, Mr. Smith."
Or in my case, "Have a nice day, Mr. Gift."
http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/gift_card_how.html
There are monthly charges on some of these cards and they gradually loose their value. CT has a law preventing this.
My bank offers these gift cards but the limit is very low. No more than $200, I think. That isn't enough for our typical online purchases like computer stuff or airline tickets. i don't know what we are going to do after December when our pay it off each month card goes RFID.
Cathleen
Lead foil
Quote from: cathleeninnh on January 02, 2007, 08:11 AM NHFT
i don't know what we are going to do after December when our pay it off each month card goes RFID.
X-Acto knife.
Oh, I could snip the card and still use the account online, but then I would be "another satisfied user of RFID technology".
Cathleen
Why you DON'T want a card with RFID in it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/23/business/23card.html?ex=1319256000&en=76401b1601fc06e3&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
Lloyd.... NH has that law as well. (recent law).
Also I did some checking recently.
If a child does NOT have an SSN then the child can NOT be claimed as a dependent on your 1040 IRS form.
(I know many people here don't file.. just wanted to point it out).
oh yea ... they want that number
someone can claim me as a dependant on this years return with my old number ... I won't be using it.
Our other son 'little Russell'... he is a handful. ;D
if they complain about my age .... say that I need 24 supervision.
QuoteGot the DL with no problem just by reciting the number, so apparently the government refuses to recognize cancellation in any form.
The larger points that I should have made are these:
1.The contention has been that
if there is no law compelling you to have or keep a social security number, then it must be a contract. All contracts can be canceled, broken, etc.
If the government cannot cite the law that compels, and refuses to recognize cancellation, it would appear that we are in the area of "other". We now have a precedent.
My statements were not meant to be as much confession, as education.
I believe the social security number, and the social security system as a whole to be illegal on it's face.
2. Don't waste your time and (gobs of) money trying to cancel that which cannot be canceled. It's been an expensive lesson for me. Just refuse to use the number. I did the cancellation the "right way". It was totally unnecessary. I will never again recite the number, nor will I indoctrinate my children.
I know I'm round-a-bout making my points. Thanks for your patience.
Quote from: AvatarofVirgo on December 09, 2005, 06:53 PM NHFTRight now my priority is getting a job and buying a car and getting my own place. I want a job that I don't have to provide my SSN, take a damn drug test
Some employers don't necessarily ask their potential employees to take a drug test because they don't want employees who break the law. Some have perfectly rational reasons for not wanting employees who take recreational drugs.
Keep on fighting for freedom. I myself was tricked into this silly SS system 7 years ago. I hope to dissasociate myself from the evil number when (and if) I move to NH.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on December 12, 2005, 07:57 PM NHFT
Avatar I think there could be a market for transporting stuff to the Boston area from Nashua NH. Prices in Nashua are almost as cheap as Dallas, but Boston area prices, just 40 mi. away, are about 50% higher than Nashua. Also there is no sales tax in NH of course so you'd save them another 5% that way.
you coul charge 10% markup and save them boo koo money,
Great idea, Dada! This could be productive if done right and with the proper targeted marketing. They do this kind of thing in various parts of the EU all the time these days. BTW, if anyone has any questions about private banking, nomineeing, etc, please see http://mpassetprotection.com/ or PM me.
Quote from: ninetales1234 on January 24, 2007, 06:00 PM NHFT
Some employers don't necessarily ask their potential employees to take a drug test because they don't want employees who break the law. Some have perfectly rational reasons for not wanting employees who take recreational drugs.
Like nursing. I'll never find a nursing position where a drug screen isn't mandatory because I work with narcotics all day long. Drug diversion by nurses is still a big problem. They like to be sure that someone who will have easy access to all the narcs they want isn't dealing with an amphetamine habit.
An important place to start to get an understanding of the SS system is at the SSA's history page:
http://ssa.gov/history/index.html,
especially their chronology, which everyone should read:
http://ssa.gov/history/chrono.html.
It's an important history of socialism ("social insurance").
Jack
There was an organization called National Organization for Non-Enumeration (NONE), but they're probably inactive now - they were at http://www.noneusa.org. I met with their founder, Ken Potter and had extensive discussions with him. I have some of their publications and will be placing them in the Renaissance Reading Room when that opens. I could possibly scan some of them in and post them somewhere for all to see.
NONE published the procedure for getting a job without an SSN or a bank account, the 2 main areas where the SSN is "requested", though not "required." This is an important distinction - the law and regs require the employer and banker to "request" the number, but since you are not legally "required" to have one, they can't require you to do the impossible, ie, produce something which you do not have. Treasury, therefore, has a procedure (described in the regs) if the bank has met the "request" requirement and you do not produce one - usually involves them sending in an affidavit stating that they did "request" it. This was all before the USA PATRIOT act, though.
USA PATRIOT requires the Treasury Dept. to promulgate regs and the regs they did promulgate required their agents, the banks, to institute CIP's, or customer identification programs, which usually then required the SSN. There may still be a way, though, if someone wants to pursue this. You have to have your background research done first and then be very persistent.
It might take a few weeks to get the account opened, since you'll have to work your way up from the junior officer to the branch manager to the higher corporate levels and usually over to their legal office before you'll get the word pushed back down to the branch that it's OK (usually to just open a non-interest bearing acct).
NONE claims that they had broken in a Nashua bank, Granite Bank, which has now been bought up by Ocean Bank. This might be the thing to do again - go to one bank and have several people apply and persist and work it all the way through to the top and back down again until the branch manager understands the proper procedure and the law.
A complaint can be taken to the New Hampshire Human Rights Commission and possibly to a federal agency if you are denied something because of your religious beliefs and practices (if your beliefs prevent you from being numbered, for example). Federeal fines are in the neighborhood of $10,000 (per occurrence?) on the institution commiting the civil rights violation of discriminating against someone because of their creed (religion).
Jack
Something to review regarding SSN and religious belief is the famous Amish case, Valentine Byler vs. the IRS. They are exempted because they do have a plan for taking care of their elderly. History of the case is at:
http://www.amishnews.com/amisharticles/amishss.htm
I'm not sure about the Native American Indians. They got the crap kicked out of them so badly by the US Army and then the Bur. of Indian Affairs that I'm not sure if they have tried to fight this one. I know there was a case (which I have here somewhere) where the NA claimed that his baby daughter shouldn't have an SSN because of beliefs, but he and his wife did have #'s and they were requesting state welfare. The state required the kid to have a # before they could pay out benefits and the court agreed that it was a reasonable record-keeping requirement (in order to cross-check with federal records).
A very important point is that you should not be requesting or receiving any federal benefit whatsoever, or ever plan to request or receive one for the rest of your life if you want to be exempted from having a SSN. (Which is the reason we should be developing alternative institutions for our community - please attend our session on Personal Freedom Alternatives, 4PM, Sat. 24Feb07 at the NH Liberty Forum in Concord, N.H. to hear of some alternatives - sales pitch).
Jack
PS: don't mean to overwhelm, but just dumping my data on the topic in hopes that it will be helpful.
Western Union has a pre-paid debit card and, of course, have locations everywhere - fairly high fees to re-charge your card and for other transactions. They have a higher card limit than the gift cards. Last time I checked, they also "asked for" the SSN. You can google Prepaid Debit Card and find oodles of them - http://www.google.com/search?q=Prepaid+debit+card&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a.
Jack
You need to be careful with these things. Anything out of the ordinary could be considered suspicious by the bank. See http://tinyurl.com/yvnutu for germane information. There are some truly anonymous debit cards you can get for cash or eGold, but they have some small fees associated with them. Privacy isn't free, but a little bit of time an expense toward preparation is more than worth the potential consequences if you are careless! I've avoided some potentially violent stalkers in the past by taking simple actions to ensure my privacy, so I suggest that others do the same.
There is no information at the link provided (to www.powerprivacy.com), merely uninformative snippets designed to pressure the reader into 1. registering for an account and 2. paying a fee once an account (which asks for a lot of personal information on a privacy-oriented site) has been registered.
Thank you, bugmenot, for shaving precious minutes off my total of wasted time! :P
-edit
There appear to be four "free" articles of which one is an advertisement and the others conflict with the stated claim that "You won't find these step-by-step information guides anywhere else". :P~
It is a pay site, but well worth it, IMHO. Let me know what info you specifically want, and I'll get it for you. Also note that the requested info doesn't lead to problems if you decide not to fill it in. The affiliate program at KeepYourAssets.net (http://www.keepyourassets.net?andrew) is similar. The software we use asks for SSN and other info, but we have no use for it, and won't ask for it if you don't want to hand it out. Commission is good, and you can get paid in pretty much any format (cash, eMetals, Liberty Dollars, etc). BTW, if you decide to poke around with it, please be sure to specify "andrew" as your referrer.
NOTE: I'm redoing the information on private on-line banking because some systems are under legal attack, and some new alternatives are emerging.