Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 26, 2005, 09:30 AM NHFT
I wonder what the punishment is for what Russell is going to do.
It would be nice if we could read the law. ::)
Guess this will be a case of learn by doing...
I don't think they will limit themselves to little NH rules......they will go for some secret homeland security stuff
Yeah, Russell must find the time to visit Independence Hall if he makes it to Philadelphia in order to remain honest about this.
I would have performed manicures all day long if necessary. I had the supplies. And I would have come back until they forced me to stop. ;)
Actually, to be honest, Russell is not going to make it to Philadelphia.
His event is a huge slap in the face to all fascist neocon jingoism nationwide. With the media present, there WILL be a response.
This event looks better and better each day. 8)
What should we call all of our activities?
Gandhi originally called it "Passive Resistance" in S. Africa, but changed to an Indian phrase and used the term "Nonviolent Noncooperation" to convey the idea of activity instead of passivity.
I have always thought that we were starting the 2nd American Revolution and I hoped this time we could do it without shooting anyone. Now I can see the path much more clearly and we are starting out as radical as Gandhi became. At first Gandhi was appealing to British rights, much like early Americans did. Now we are appealing to ideals much greater than just getting back to the US Constitution. We are striving towards a freedom much greater than the founding fathers gave us and we will get there without using violence.
We are also hoping that this movement will be bigger than just one personality, unlike in India.......which is fortunate, since none of us are nearly as virtuous as Gandhi was. :)
So what should we call this revolution? There have been great names for events over time......Bloodless Revolution, Glorious Revolution, Civil Rights Movement, Gandhi's Civil Disobedience, various Revolutions..........should we come up with a name or let it grow over time?
"So what should we call this revolution?"
HMMMMM?
I am tempted to say that I think the name will come quite naturaly, but then again, maybe it already has . . . NHfree! ;)
The Underground Revolution 8)
Quote from: russellkanning on May 26, 2005, 05:44 PM NHFT
I have always thought that we were starting the 2nd American Revolution and I hoped this time we could do it without shooting anyone. Now I can see the path much more clearly and we are starting out as radical as Gandhi became. At first Gandhi was appealing to British rights, much like early Americans did. Now we are appealing to ideals much greater than just getting back to the US Constitution. We are striving towards a freedom much greater than the founding fathers gave us and we will get there without using violence.
Exactly.
Because our principles of liberty are more pure than even the founding fathers', we will find more success toward liberty than they ever could. They succeeded in creating a temporarily limited government, but their goal was a permanently limited government, thus their total failure is obvious. Unlike the founding fathers, the hypocritical slaveholders who only believed people do not need kings to exist, I believe in the Golden Rule and that people do not need any form of government to prosper. To me, true freedom is absolute self-government. Unlike the founders, I believe that until we are truly free, we are all slaves.
When your own act of civil disobedience is upon you, you finally begin to see a clear path to freedom. You realize that your suffering can and will set us free with time. Civil disobedience is the only vulnerability of a total police state, and it only exists because all human beings, by nature, share the same heart. The universe is one family. When one suffers openly and voluntarily for a purpose, every human being feels it. This is human nature and cannot be changed.
During my 48-hour fast of self-purification that ended this morning, my suffering was the same feeling as being imprisoned. Because both of these events of suffering were voluntarily borne, they both reminded me of that feeling that I can finally see true path to freedom. Time slows down and it feels like my soul is being set free at the expense of my body. These are some of the most wonderful experiences of my life.
The most amazing part of this movement is how I've felt since the event. I have never felt so alive and happy, and I feel such love for others that it is impossible to put into words. This may be exactly how Russell will feel after his event. I do not know for sure, but I hope so. It is a wonderful feeling. :)
The state's days are indeed numbered. ;D
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 26, 2005, 07:38 PM NHFT
The Underground Revolution? 8)
I like that. Now I know what my next t-shirt will be.
I like the phrase "The People's Protest".
It's already been called the Second American Revolution...I still like that best. But maybe there is something better. Certainly it would be nice if it included something about NH.
Actually, a revolution is typically the replacement of one government with another. A "revolution" literally means traveling around in a circular motion. I do not agree with this concept at all. I like emancipation better.
The American Emancipation
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 27, 2005, 10:36 PM NHFT
Actually, a revolution is typically the replacement of one government with another.? A "revolution" literally means traveling around in a circular motion.? I do not agree with this concept at all.? I like emancipation better.
The American Emancipation
I like it with one caveat: The New Hampshire Emancipation
I don't think the whole country is interested in being emancipated. Let the rest be slaves, if it is their desire, but make NH FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's true. The rest of America is hopeless. I like The New Hampshire Emancipation even better! :)
And our flag can be: The shape of NH, with the Gasden snake, and "Don't Tread On Me" ;D
Quote from: AlanM on May 28, 2005, 12:01 AM NHFT
And our flag can be: The shape of NH, with the Gasden snake, and "Don't Tread On Me"? ;D
Oh hell ya thats good.
We don't need no stinking flags! Patriotism sickens me! Burn them all! >:(
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 28, 2005, 12:10 AM NHFT
We don't need no stinking flags!? Patriotism sickens me!? Burn them all!? ?>:(
How about if it's just a small flag?
Mike,
Our flag won't represent the government. It will represent Freedom, and its home is NH.
Burn burn burn the flag.
Burn it all day long!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Patriotism is wrong.
Sing it with me this time!
So for all the extra pat down I got today at O'Hare Airport ( for refusing to remove my shoes), the crack team at TSA did not find the corkscrew that was in my bag. Hmmmm. But yet our plane was safe.
BTW--- the person who checks ids is NOT a TSA official... it is a rent-a-security person.... which I find interesting.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 28, 2005, 12:40 AM NHFT
Burn burn burn the flag.
Burn it all day long!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Patriotism is wrong.
Sing it with me this time!
Are you sure you don't mean "nationalism"? Most of the people on this forum are patriots...
Quote from: Dreepa on May 28, 2005, 12:53 AM NHFT
So for all the extra pat down I got today at O'Hare Airport ( for refusing to remove my shoes), the crack team at TSA did not find the corkscrew that was in my bag.? Hmmmm.? But yet our plane was safe.
BTW--- the person who checks ids is NOT a TSA official... it is a rent-a-security person.... which I find interesting.
Big waste of time isn't it.....which person that greets me won't matter too much.
I wonder if we can get a bunch of people to react differently to the whole airport security situation after our first event. Maybe people could have interesting conversations with the agents.
You might have been risking alot with that corkscrew......you are a serious security threat. ;D
Maybe you can ask them "what would happen if I refused to have a pat down search?"
I imagine they'd just turn you away from entering, unless you made an effort to keep moving.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 28, 2005, 01:56 AM NHFT
Are you sure you don't mean "nationalism"?? Most of the people on this forum are patriots...
Jingoism, nationalism, and patriotism are only another method of control - an extremely effective method at that. I hope nobody is offended by this, but it is true. Many have died for the ideals of our country, but nobody has ever died for a piece of cloth. At least I hope not!
Quote from: Dreepa on May 28, 2005, 12:53 AM NHFT
So for all the extra pat down I got today at O'Hare Airport ( for refusing to remove my shoes), the crack team at TSA did not find the corkscrew that was in my bag.? Hmmmm.? But yet our plane was safe.
BTW--- the person who checks ids is NOT a TSA official... it is a rent-a-security person.... which I find interesting.
So, How was the wine?
The Merrimack Porcupines meeting today was interesting. I tried to sell Russell's event to the group and I really think they liked the idea, coming from the perspective of Real ID and the Aviation Security Act. I assured them Russell would not initiate force or physically noncooperate when arrested, only that he would noncooperate when asked to leave or be fully searched.
From what I gathered, they really liked the outcome of the manicure event and are looking forward to our future actions.
Cool :) Thanks for doing that, Mike.
These guys are nuts!
What's "air rage" and what does it have to do with talking on the phone?
http://news.com.com/Cell+phones+on+planes+worry+US+law+enforcement/2100-1041_3-5723903.html
Cell phones on planes worry US law enforcement
Published: May 28, 2005, 9:33 AM PDT
By Reuters
Allowing airline passengers to use personal cell phones during flights could help potential hijackers coordinate an attack or trigger a bomb smuggled on board, U.S. security officials have told regulators.
The U.S. Justice Department, Department of Homeland Security and Federal Bureau of Investigation late on Thursday outlined the potential dangers associated with allowing cell phone use during plane flights, as the Federal Communications Commission has proposed if safety issues can be resolved.
The Federal Aviation Administration would also have to approve any rule change.
At present, personal cell phones and other communication devices must be switched off at takeoff, landing and for the duration of commercial flights because it could potentially interfere with the operation of the plane.
While some have told the FCC they worry about an increase in loud, irritating chatter on flights, law enforcement officials were focused on preventing a possible attack.
"The uniqueness of service to and from an aircraft in flight presents the possibility that terrorists and other criminals could use air-to-ground communications systems to coordinate an attack," they said in comments to the FCC.
During Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, passengers and crew on the hijacked planes used cell phones as well as phones embedded in the seats to call for help and talk to loved ones.
If the cell phone ban were lifted, law enforcement authorities worry an attacker could use the device to coordinate with accomplices on the ground, on another flight or seated elsewhere on the same plane.
If wireless phones are to be allowed in-flight, the law enforcement agencies urged that users be required to register their location on a plane before placing a call and that officials have fast access to call identification data.
"There is a short window of opportunity in which action can be taken to thwart a suicidal terrorist hijacking or remedy other crisis situations on board an aircraft," the agencies said in the comments.
The security officials also worried that personal phone use could increase the risk of a remotely-controlled bomb being used to bring down an airliner. But they acknowledged simple radio-controlled explosive devices have been used in the past on planes and the first line of defense was security checks at airports.
Still, "the departments believe that the new possibilities generated by airborne passenger connectivity must be recognized," they said.
More air rage?
In other filings with FCC, several flight attendants worried that allowing cell phones to be used on planes could make their jobs harder during an emergency and lead to further cases of air rage by passengers.
Cities tempted by wireless
"The introduction of cell phone use in the cabin will not only increase tension among passengers, it will compromise flight attendants' ability to maintain order in an emergency," said American Airlines flight attendant Joyce Berngard.
The possibility of air rage incidents also raised concerns among law enforcement officials who feared that it could complicate the job of armed air marshals disguised as passengers who are deployed on thousands of U.S. airline flights each week.
"The first and overriding priority of federal law enforcement on board aircraft is to ensure the safety of the aircraft and the flight," the law enforcement officials said.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 17, 2005, 10:43 AM NHFT
Someone on the Board of the Newmarket Business Association told me today that somehow that proposed new law requiring passports to travel to Canada is already in effect. Is this true?
IIRC, as I entered Ontario a few days ago on my way to New Hampshire, I was not asked for any ID, although I had my passport ready. I was grilled more than I had anticipated, though. I guess my car full of stuff looked suspicious. ::) It was actually easier getting back into the U.S., believe it or not.
Quote from: KBCraig on May 19, 2005, 11:13 AM NHFT
Quote from: president on May 19, 2005, 10:59 AM NHFT
....and the story is fake...but what can you expect from lewrockwell.org
Gee, did you really have to go to snopes to check a story set in the R.J. Squirrel airport, in Frostbite Falls, MN?
Kevin
Geez Louise, am I the only Harold and Maude fan here? Rent it, fercrissakes. It's a classic.
I love that movie :)
So do I. I own it, but, except for the 'granny' being named Gordon, I don't get Friday's reference.
Me neither.
Well...there you have it,,Friday's, clearly, crazy ;D
I can think of many other security measures that can ensure our safety:
Crowd/passenger control:
Ratio of one flight attendant to one passenger (if there are a couple of sky marshalls you can slip in a few more passengers)
No more slender female flight attendants......we need large male martial arts trained samarai warrior types
at least 4 passenger 57s on each flight
no more than 20 passengers per plane
passengers belted and locked into seat during the flight.....attendants can unlock 1 passenger at a time to move about the cabin
absolutely no communication devices
no music that could lead to possible plane rage ...instead soothing muzak or possibly just drug sedation appropriate for the length of the flight
no liberty-oriented in-flight films
no laptop computers or other hand held devices that could be bombs/ignition devices
Airport screening:
Complete strip search (clothes are then bagged and checked for the flight....travelers are then outfitted with orange jumpsuits for the flight)
x-ray for all passengers and MRI scans for "selectees"
absolutely no carry on items.....government pamphlets will be provided for your in-flight reading pleasure
I must be missing dozens of good ideas....
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on May 29, 2005, 08:27 AM NHFT
So do I. I own it, but, except for the 'granny' being named Gordon, I don't get Friday's reference.
Look at the DVD case, Lloyd! Ruth Gordon and Bud Cort are Maude and Harold.
And oh yeah, Cat Stevens did the whole soundtrack.
You're right, Lloyd...clearly nutty ;D
DVD case? They wern't around when I bought my VHS, but, I'm beginning to catch on. I'll go back and review the fake Granny story for references to Bud Cort, and, Cat Steven and his tunes, and, then make a decision about Friday's sanity.
Can't we all be right? The article contained numerous Harold & Maude references... and I'm loony! :D
Quote from: Friday on May 29, 2005, 09:32 AM NHFT
Can't we all be right? The article contained numerous Harold & Maude references... and I'm loony!? :D
Loony?....... You believe in Freedom in an age of state control. It's Sunday, but you are Friday. You are friends with Porcupines........ Next question.
Quote from: AlanM on May 29, 2005, 09:37 AM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on May 29, 2005, 09:32 AM NHFT
Can't we all be right? The article contained numerous Harold & Maude references... and I'm loony!? :D
Loony?....... You believe in Freedom in an age of state control. It's Sunday, but you are Friday. You are friends with Porcupines........ Next question.
Of course this is being said by a man who is a Giant Green Anti-Statist who has a tall friend named Shorty who got hit in the backside by the train.................... *sigh* .......... Did I tell you about One-eyed Pete?
Quote from: russellkanning on May 29, 2005, 08:37 AM NHFT
I can think of many other security measures that can ensure our safety:
Crowd/passenger control:
Ratio of one flight attendant to one passenger (if there are a couple of sky marshalls you can slip in a few more passengers)
No more slender female flight attendants......we need large male martial arts trained samarai warrior types
at least 4 passenger 57s on each flight
no more than 20 passengers per plane
passengers belted and locked into seat during the flight.....attendants can unlock 1 passenger at a time to move about the cabin
absolutely no communication devices
no music that could lead to possible plane rage ...instead soothing muzak or possibly just drug sedation appropriate for the length of the flight
no liberty-oriented in-flight films
no laptop computers or other hand held devices that could be bombs/ignition devices
Airport screening:
Complete strip search (clothes are then bagged and checked for the flight....travelers are then outfitted with orange jumpsuits for the flight)
x-ray for all passengers and MRI scans for "selectees"
absolutely no carry on items.....government pamphlets will be provided for your in-flight reading pleasure
I must be missing dozens of good ideas....
ROFL!!!!!!!
Don't forget the pre-flight strip search, warrantless cavity search, full-body pat-down, a full set of nude photographs (just incase of identifying tattoos!), a full set of fingerprints, iris scan, hand scan, DNA sample, drug test, thorough questioning, coordination test, shower, shave, and of course the oversized orange prisoner clothes with "TSAHOC" (TSA House of Corrections) on the right leg. ?Tear open their luggage and log each item into the computer. ?Don't forget to steal their money and driver's license at some point.
Then separate us by sex and throw us into prison cells in the back of the plane with a fan that never turns off, a light that never turns off, an open toilet seat with no privacy, and one tiny window, and remember to feed us once in a while.
If anyone gets out of hand, just open the cell door and spray mace inside. ?(a true story of one prisoner I was talking with)
At least in prison you get a phone call once in a while!
Quote from: president on May 25, 2005, 09:14 AM NHFT
I don't know if laws have changed, but I think you used to only have to give name and address to the police if you got arrested.
I'm pretty sure the cops ask for a lot more info, like employer, SSN, prior arrest record....Maybe Mike Fisher can fill us in on what they ask ???
This is all I can find in the RSAs:
594:2 Questioning and Detaining Suspects. A peace officer may stop any person abroad whom he has reason to suspect is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime, and may demand of him his name, address, business abroad and where he is going.
I could have sworn that it's been federal law for a while now that, technically, you are required to have ID on you at all times. The cops have the right to request your ID any time they feel like it. And if you don't have any on you, you're in trouble. Does anybody know if this is right?
Hey, it's Friday! Good to see you on the forums!
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 29, 2005, 09:51 AM NHFT
Don't forget the pre-flight strip search, warrantless cavity search, full-body pat-down, a full set of nude photographs (just incase of identifying tattoos!), a full set of fingerprints, iris scan, hand scan, DNA sample, drug test, thorough questioning, coordination test, shower, shave, and of course the oversized orange prisoner clothes with "TSAHOC" (TSA House of Corrections) on the right leg. ?Tear open their luggage and log each item into the computer. ?Don't forget to steal their money and driver's license at some point.
Oops! Forgot about the lie detector test, mandatory patriotic tattoo, and mandatory RFID chip implant.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 29, 2005, 09:59 AM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on May 29, 2005, 09:51 AM NHFT
Don't forget the pre-flight strip search, warrantless cavity search, full-body pat-down, a full set of nude photographs (just incase of identifying tattoos!), a full set of fingerprints, iris scan, hand scan, DNA sample, drug test, thorough questioning, coordination test, shower, shave, and of course the oversized orange prisoner clothes with "TSAHOC" (TSA House of Corrections) on the right leg. ?Tear open their luggage and log each item into the computer. ?Don't forget to steal their money and driver's license at some point.
Oops!? Forgot about the lie detector test, mandatory patriotic tattoo, and mandatory RFID chip implant.
Don't forget the sample for the steroids test. Artificially induced strength is a no-no.
Quote from: Friday on May 29, 2005, 09:52 AM NHFT
I could have sworn that it's been federal law for a while now that, technically, you are required to have ID on you at all times. The cops have the right to request your ID any time they feel like it. And if you don't have any on you, you're in trouble. Does anybody know if this is right?
Nope, that's not right. There's no federal law requiring anyone to have ID at all times.
You may be thinking of the operative Supreme Court rulings. For years, no one was required to indentify themselves to the police unless they were arrested,
but, if they gave a name or ID, it had to be accurate (if you identified yourself, you couldn't lie about it).
And then there's an even newer SCOTUS ruling against Larry Hiibel, where they ruled that any time police are questioning someone and demand ID, it must be provided. http://www.papersplease.org/hiibel/
Kevin
http://www.local6.com/news/4479554/detail.html
Iris Scanning To Begin At Orlando International Airport
POSTED: 11:14 pm EDT May 11, 2005
UPDATED: 2:13 pm EDT May 12, 2005
ORLANDO, Fla. -- Florida's busiest airport will begin using high-tech iris-scanning technology to filter out possible terrorists and add an additional layer of security, according to Local 6 News.
Workers and other people at Orlando International Airport will have both irises scanned at special computers to determine their identity.
SLIDESHOW: Images From Story
VIDEO: See The Story
"This will be an additional layer of information that is enrolled, which will be biometric information," OIA director of security Brigitte Rivera Goersch said. "Employees irises will be enrolled for the additional layer of security."
The Airport Access Control Pilot Program or AACPP is a first of its kind, according to the report.
A person would be required to stand in front of a special mirror and have both eyes scanned.
"It has to verify both irises, not just one iris," Goersch. "Statistically it is very reliable. Iris scanners -- the technology of iris scanning -- is considered one of the most reliable biometric technologies."
"You know just like we did with the airplanes with the cockpit doors and air marshals and all of that kind of stuff," federal security director Art Meinke said. It is just another step to try to figure out what can we do better."
Local 6 News reported that the 90-day test could be expanded and eventually moved to airports throughout the nation.
BTW, sent out press releases to major newspapers in the other 49 states. Didn't do NH.
I was recently watching an Alex Jones video and you could hear a recorded voice stating the rules of the airport, one that caught my attention was " those making disparaging remarks about airport security will be arrested"? so much for freedom of speech....
Quote from: katdillon on May 30, 2005, 08:46 AM NHFT
BTW, sent out press releases to major newspapers in the other 49 states.? Didn't do NH.
And you did this HOW? :o :o
'twas not difficult. I helped put together the press release database for the FSP, so got adept at locating newspaper contacts. What I used was this:
http://capwiz.com/liberty/dbq/media/
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050529/1038928.asp
New Social Security card proposed
High-tech plan targets ID theft, illegal workers
By FRANK JAMES
Chicago Tribune
5/29/2005
WASHINGTON - Congress is moving to replace the paper Social Security cards issued to 280 million Americans with plastic, harder-to-counterfeit versions to try to curtail identity theft and the use of Social Security cards and numbers by some undocumented immigrants to obtain jobs.
Critics fear the cards could become de facto national IDs and eventually play the role that identity papers have played over history in repressive societies. Some worry that the proposal could mean trouble for immigrant workers and even criminal fines for employers.
If the Illegal Immigration Enforcement and Social Security Protection Act of 2005 became law, every person seeking a job in the United States - citizen and undocumented immigrant alike - would have to present the card to his or her prospective employer.
Proponents hope that the card would also end the difficulties endured by victims of identity theft like one San Diego resident. The woman, a U.S. citizen who asked that her name not be revealed, said Thursday that her name and Social Security number were misappropriated by an undocumented immigrant who got jobs and credit using her Social Security number.
The immigrant stole from one employer, defaulted on credit and had an arrest warrant for an assault, causing more than a decade of problems for the victim.
The front of the new card would have the holder's photo and Social Security number.
A machine-readable magnetic stripe on the card's back, like those found on credit cards, would contain a digitized photo and the person's employment eligibility. The card could be swiped through a reader by an employer with its information compared with an employment eligibility database to be maintained by the Homeland Security Department.
Stiff penalties proposed
Under the bill, for the first time employers who hire undocumented immigrants could face federal criminal charges punishable by up to five years in prison for employing even one illegal immigrant and a fine of up to $50,000 for every illegal immigrant hired.
The bill would also require the hiring of 10,000 additional federal immigration enforcement agents to crack down on the hiring of illegal immigrants.
"If anyone who's here illegally is hoping to get a (new) job . . . they won't be able to get that job if they don't have one of these," said Rep. David Dreier, R-Calif., the bill's chief sponsor, during a recent hearing as he held aloft a prototype of the card.
"And they can't have one of these unless they're here legally. And so what does that say to someone who is here illegally? "I might as well go home because I can't feed my family in the U.S.' "
But he added that his legislation likely wouldn't cause the mass exodus of the estimated 10 million undocumented immigrants in America because of the economy's dependence on them.
So he supports a guest-worker program to allow many of the undocumented workers to come forward. Allowing immigration officials to register many of these individuals would improve homeland security because "it is a security threat to us to have literally millions of people here illegally because among them could be potential terrorists," he said.
Currently, there are 280 million Social Security cards, with 5.4 million issued in 2003, the last year for which statistics are available. About 1.2 million of those were issued to immigrants legally authorized to work in the U.S.
Knowing that Americans might be alarmed to realize that many of them would have to get new cards under his plan, Dreier has sought to reassure them. "This will only be used by people looking for a new job," he said.
Still he hasn't put to rest all the concerns his bill has raised. Business groups are concerned about criminalizing employers who hire undocumented workers.
"The answer to these issues does not lie in a draconian system of penalties on employers but in a well-reasoned and concerted effort to address border security," said Randel Johnson, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce's vice president for labor, immigration and employee benefits.
Mark Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a Washington-based advocacy group, said the new card could potentially expand the already widespread use of Social Security numbers as personal identification.
"We don't want people easily counterfeiting Social Security cards or passing around Social Security numbers," he said. "Our concern with the proposal is that this card . . . is the type of card that people might begin to carry in their wallets," giving identity thieves more opportunities to get their hands on lost or stolen cards.
The legislation would make the Homeland Security Department responsible for maintaining a new employment eligibility database.
Fears of "mega' agency
That worries privacy advocates because the agency has already sought to be exempted in certain instances from the Federal Privacy Act, which restricts how federal agencies handle databases containing Americans' personal information.
Another fear, Rotenberg said, concerns Homeland Security becoming "this mega government agency that decides who gets a drivers' license, who gets a job, who gets on an airplane."
Critics say the new plastic card could also quickly become a national ID card, although the legislation explicitly states the card would not be used in that way and the card carries the same message in large print. Merchants and others, critics say, could quickly come to rely on the card as an important form of ID.
"This is the beginning of a much larger surveillance network that the government plans to put together, ostensibly for immigration purposes," warned Timothy Edgar, an American Civil Liberties Union general counsel.
Don't we already have a mega agency?......the Federal Government.
Regarding this new LewRockwell article from May 28:
Fear of Flying, by Becky Akers
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/akers3.html
I wrote to Becky about Russell's Freedom to Travel event and here's what she said in reply:
"Not only am I interested in the event, I've already read all about it: a couple of folks forwarded it to me. I'll be cheering this brave patriot, and praying for him, too, as he confronts evil head-on."
Nice!!!? :) :)
Yeah, I wrote to her and got a nice reply :) She said she had a couple of new heroes now, thinking she meant you and Russell.
Another plane on its way to the US was diverted after the government discovered a passenger on it had the name of someone on the no-fly list.? Of course, this person was a U.S. Citizen who happened to share the same name as someone on the no-fly list.
Quote
SEOUL, South Korea (AP) A Korean Air flight to California was diverted to Japan after U.S. officials refused to let it enter American airspace because they suspected a passenger might be a terrorist, airline officials said Tuesday.
The man, a U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent, has the same name as that of a suspect on the U.S. government?s no-fly list. He was allowed to reboard the flight with other passengers when it was determined he was not the suspect in question, and the flight continued to San Francisco.
The man and his family had boarded a connecting flight in Bangkok before arriving in South Korea for the flight to San Francisco.
The flight left South Korea?s Incheon International Airport at 6:15 p.m. Sunday and had completed most of the journey to San Francisco when it was ordered back. It landed at Japan?s Narita Airport early on Monday.
The no-fly list identifies individuals who have known or suspected links to terrorism or who have been otherwise identified as a threat to aviation
This is of course, nuts.? There are a few ways to correct this situation, the sane way, and the way they're going to try.? How about a nice op-ed promoting a less than sane way?? Sample rant I may attempt to submit as an op-ed to some of the nationwide newspapers:
A plane which completed most of the distance between South Korea and Los Angeles was diverted to Japan after it was discovered that a passenger on that flight had the name of someone on the United States Government?s no-fly list. The fact that this person, a United States Citizen of Pakistani decent, only shared the name of someone on the no-fly list was likely little consolation to the passengers of that flight whose travel plans were ruined by an unlucky coincidence.
The problem with the no-fly list is that many innocent people share the same name as suspected terrorists that we cannot allow to fly into the United States. The unfortunate consequence of the apparently inefficient system that is being used to prevent people on the no-fly list from entering the United States at the destination of their choice is that many other innocent people have their travel plans ruined when their flight is sent back or diverted to another location. It is of course infuriating to them when they learn their business trip or vacation was ruined because someone on the plane just happened to have the same name as a person on the no-fly list and nobody noticed this before the plane took off.
Now while in a perfect world such things would be rectified before someone boarded an airplane, we know we do not live in a perfect world. The easiest way to resolve the problem of people having the same name as someone on the no-fly list is self-evident. Give everyone on planet Earth a unique name. Now, as there are over six billion persons on the planet, it might be inconvenient to come up with a unique name for every one of them that is easily remembered or even pronounceable. There also may be problems with having some agency tell John Smith that his name isn?t good enough for him anymore. Given this problem the only natural solution is to give every person their own unique number. Now this may seem impractical at first glance, but methods for this sort of thing have long been worked out. By giving everyone a number we can assure that every individual on the planet will indeed be unique. In fact, the number could easily have groupings to allow for easy reference of someone?s background and political affiliations, and ancestral history. Now as numbers aren't always easy to remember, it may be wise to imprint them somewhere upon each individual so they will not forget their number, and to enable authorities to determine it without undue effort. Of course, civil libertarians and religious fanatics may whine that this sort of thing is well over the line, but we have entered a terrifying new world where danger lurks beyond every corner, and we must completely change our society into something unrecognizable lest we lose all that we have created. As for more advanced methods of addressing this issue, while it is true that the technology to implant microchips in people is progressing rapidly, the cost of chipping 6 billion people is still rather prohibitive. Tattooing them will be far more cost effective and of course, visible. The addition of some sort of bar code may make for easy interface with electronic equipment, speeding up processing times at checkpoints where an individual?s identity may need to be confirmed. In time it may be wise to chip certain segments of the population deemed to require closer supervision, as these chips will allow authorities to easily track their movements with GPS satellites.
I realize that some may question the need for such reaching measures, but this is not so different than the road we have already embarked upon. The REAL ID act recently passed by Congress is a tremendous and monumental first step towards realizing this goal. By completely quashing the sovereignty of the states in setting the standards by which they may issue drivers licenses, the seeds of the sort of national ID needed for this effort have been sown, fertilized and placed under a grow lamp. Of course, since almost all the terrorists purported to be a problem for our security are not United States citizens, this program desperately needs to be expanded to worldwide proportions. Since there is only one worldwide organization that can accomplish this, we must task the United Nations to seeing that all residents of this world be numbered and cataloged under our guidance. Only then can we truly be safe from the things that go bump in the night.
*changed it around a bit*
I think many people will read this, nod and say "Yes master."
Jon, the only problem is that there are lots of people out there who won't get the sarcasm, and others who actually think such a people-tracking scheme is a good idea! (Sensenbrenner comes to mind... )
Kevin
Jon,
Be careful not to give people any bright ideas on how to track everyone on Earth.
Once, in high school, I told the library staff that the privacy of students is being violated by others who read through their internet history in the library computers. ?They agreed with my sentiment and approved of me installing a batch program to clear the history each time the computer is restarted.
Later, I got in trouble. ?The school was angry with me and "wondered why" I installed the program to clear the history, because now they wanted to READ IT! ? :o
I told them that I only brought it up a few months before in order to protect everyone's privacy. ?They claimed I was lying and they "always knew" they could read everyone's history, which was a blatant lie. ?I was forced to remove the program. ?Luckily they never called my parents about it. ?They were very mad at me.
Lesson learned: ?never give the government any ideas on how to do anything that you don't want to happen.
I hope there are, and I hope they write letters to the editor in fervent support of this op-ed. There are enough triggers in that article to awaken the ire of even the most lackadaisical libertarian. If people don't start screaming at the "methods for this sort of thing have long been worked out." line along with the tattooing reference, I'm not sure what will set them off. I also edited one line so people who have trouble recognizing sarcasm will have an easier time seeing it with "we have entered a terrifying new world where danger lurks beyond every corner, and we must completely change our society into something unrecognizable lest we lose all that we have created." I threw in quashing state sovereignty just in case people weren't paying attention to any of the other lines.
As for numbering people, it's happened before. The government well knows how to do this; the problem is getting them to accept the branding. While some people are totally incapable of seeing sarcasm, and wouldn't recognize the significance of the things I mention above no matter how much you explain it to them, keep in mind those are not the people we wish to recruit. They're out there, and they're busy trying to implement a system not unlike what I have suggested. Unless we wake up the latent libertarian tendencies in the rest of the populace they will get their way.
I think it is perfect.
I sent it to the WSJ. They've published anti-REAL ID op-eds before, let us see if they like mine. I called it "No-fly is no-good, we need a better system"
It really is insane that a plane gets turned back for a name mixup......what happens if a terrorist is named joe smith?
Hey if your name thing gets approved, I want to be called Politicians Suck. I will then page myself alot when I am at the airport.
Quote from: KBCraig on May 29, 2005, 12:54 PM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on May 29, 2005, 09:52 AM NHFT
I could have sworn that it's been federal law for a while now that, technically, you are required to have ID on you at all times. The cops have the right to request your ID any time they feel like it. And if you don't have any on you, you're in trouble. Does anybody know if this is right?
Nope, that's not right. There's no federal law requiring anyone to have ID at all times.
You may be thinking of the operative Supreme Court rulings. For years, no one was required to indentify themselves to the police unless they were arrested, but, if they gave a name or ID, it had to be accurate (if you identified yourself, you couldn't lie about it).
And then there's an even newer SCOTUS ruling against Larry Hiibel, where they ruled that any time police are questioning someone and demand ID, it must be provided. http://www.papersplease.org/hiibel/
Kevin
My understanding was that this case did at least a *bit* less harm than that. The Supreme Court upheld a state law requiring that ID be presented if the person has any on them at the time. But that does not create a blanket requirement in all states to produce ID upon request. It just allows states to make such requirements if they want to. In my state, Washington, I believe there is a law requiring you to (truthfully) identify yourself upon request but no law requiring you to produce ID. Therefore I would not have to produce ID in my home state, even upon request.
In the fight against National ID and TSA insanity, there have been many great articles written, but not much action taken.......that is why we are starting our non-cooperation campaign.
On June 11th we need to combine our efforts.....during the civil disobedience we should be handing out flyers with links to all the great websites and stories about the problems with National ID and alternatives. We also should have as many liberty lovers as possible available to talk to the media and onlookers about their thoughts on our growing police state.
Kat will be putting together a flyer before the event and would love ideas for what to put on it. We also could use as many friendly freedom lovers to spread the word at the airport. :)
Quote from: ethanpooley on May 31, 2005, 04:19 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on May 29, 2005, 12:54 PM NHFT
And then there's an even newer SCOTUS ruling against Larry Hiibel, where they ruled that any time police are questioning someone and demand ID, it must be provided. http://www.papersplease.org/hiibel/
My understanding was that this case did at least a *bit* less harm than that. The Supreme Court upheld a state law requiring that ID be presented if the person has any on them at the time. But that does not create a blanket requirement in all states to produce ID upon request. It just allows states to make such requirements if they want to. In my state, Washington, I believe there is a law requiring you to (truthfully) identify yourself upon request but no law requiring you to produce ID. Therefore I would not have to produce ID in my home state, even upon request.
You could be right, Ethan. I admit my outrage (and frustration) over the case tainted my ability to do objective research on it.
Outrage, because SCOTUS ruled against the right to remain anonymous when you're minding your own business and not suspected of any crime. And frustration, because this was a less than perfect case (Hiibel was drunk, verbally fighting with his daughter, and acted like a total ass to the cops).
In the end, though, I believe it was a net loss. State are free to pass laws requiring that ID be produced for any reason, no reason, or just on a whim. I believe the Hiibel ruling would support any state passing a law requiring everyone to carry ID at all times, or be subject to arrest for "failure to provide proper identification".
Kevin
Very true. I just wanted to make sure people knew they currently retain .0002% of their fundamental, natural rights instead of a mere .0001%. We're all pretty depressed as it is! :)
I hope you aren't right about the ruling supporting states that demanded ID to be carried at all times. Some court (not sure if it was SCOTUS) knocked down a CA law that attempted to do that. I think it was in the 70's or 80's. That is the most direct test that I know of, but getting old. I say I hope you aren't right, because that is one that I would go to the wall for. No way am I getting a mandatory ID card, and would even stop carrying my driver's license (except in my car) if they made ID mandatory. Hopefully a lot of other people would, too. (Because they'd be good company in jai!l)
Isn't the important factor not what "rights" the Supreme Court is still upholding, but how we are actually treated by police officers?
Quote from: russellkanning on June 01, 2005, 05:11 AM NHFT
Isn't the important factor not what "rights" the Supreme Court is still upholding, but how we are actually treated by police officers?
That is very much the truth! There are times at work when I have to sit with a patient and it never seems to fail that they choose to watch "cops". I have sat in disgust so many times in watching people be treated as criminals for trying to keep their freedom. Cars stopped and searched without probable cause but merely for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and in many cases being the wrong color. Stopping people on the street and demanding to see their ID even thought they are guilty of doing nothing but walking on a public sidewalk. Seeing the cops in there nazi like uniforms beating their batons on shields while they use so called "nonleathal weapons" on the crowd. I know that you will be treated as a criminal for expressing your right to travel freely and I have the utmost respect for you and admire your courage for what you are about to do.
Stike the Root http://www.strike-the-root.com/ is listing the Portmouth Herald article today "Free Staters Plan More Civil Disobedience".
Hopefully we can follow Mike's example and not get beaten by any batons :)
Quote from: russellkanning on June 01, 2005, 05:11 AM NHFT
Isn't the important factor not what "rights" the Supreme Court is still upholding, but how we are actually treated by police officers?
How we are actually treated is certainly more important to the question of what our current level of freedom is. But what rights the Supreme Court still deigns to recognize is very important to anyone (like us) who wants to turn the country around. Maybe it's just a matter of personal preference, but I would rather have things right on the books and wrong in the streets than the other way around. Not because I would be more free, but because I would have more hope of being truly free.
I don't even want any books....so I will take freedom in the streets ;)
Btw, I loved this line from the article on the Freedom to Travel event: "Kanning?s ... inspirations, he said, are Ghandi and Fisher."
Talk about a perfect example of how activism snowballs! Fisher is inspired by Ghandi, and takes action. The very next person to take action cites Ghandi AND Fisher. I love it.
next time it will be gandhi mike and that ethan guy 8)
This may be old material to people here, but I found this piece of writing a while ago and re-read it regularly. It's called "Our Enemy, the State" by Albert Nock. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/nock1.html)
It is quite long, but here's part of it. I guess I'm mentioning this here because it speaks to the idea of "no books", something that is actually possible if government is limited to its proper role. The full work points out a fundamental distinction between society and government, and shows how empowering the government always results in a drain of power from society.
Quote"AS FAR back as one can follow the run of civilization, it presents two fundamentally different types of political organization. This difference is not one of degree, but of kind. It does not do to take the one type as merely marking a lower order of civilization and the other a higher; they are commonly so taken, but erroneously. Still less does it do to classify both as species of the same genus ? to classify both under the generic name of "government," though this also, until very lately, has been done, and has always led to confusion and misunderstanding.
A good understanding of this error and its effects is supplied by Thomas Paine. At the outset of his pamphlet called Common Sense, Paine draws a distinction between society and government. While society in any state is a blessing, he says, "government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." In another place, he speaks of government as "a mode rendered necessary by the inability of moral virtue to govern the world." He proceeds then to show how and why government comes into being. Its origin is in the common understanding and common agreement of society; and "the design and end of government," he says, is "freedom and security." Teleologically, government implements the common desire of society, first, for freedom, and second, for security. Beyond this it does not go; it contemplates no positive intervention upon the individual, but only a negative intervention. It would seem that in Paine's view the code of government should be that of the legendary king Pausole, who prescribed but two laws for his subjects, the first being, Hurt no man, and the second, Then do as you please; and that the whole business of government should be the purely negative one of seeing that this code is carried out.
So far, Paine is sound as he is simple. He goes on, however, to attack the British political organization in terms that are logically inconclusive. There should be no complaint of this, for he was writing as a pamphleteer, a special pleader with an ad captandum argument to make, and as everyone knows, he did it most successfully. Nevertheless, the point remains that when he talks about the British system he is talking about a type of political organization essentially different from the type that he has just been describing; different in origin, in intention, in primary function, in the order of interest that it reflects. It did not originate in the common understanding and agreement of society; it originated in conquest and confiscation.1
Its intention, far from contemplating "freedom and security," contemplated nothing of the kind. It contemplated primarily the continuous economic exploitation of one class by another, and it concerned itself with only so much freedom and security as was consistent with this primary intention; and this was, in fact, very little. Its primary function or exercise was not by way of Paine's purely negative interventions upon the individual, but by way of innumerable and most onerous positive interventions, all of which were for the purpose of maintaining the stratification of society into an owning and exploiting class, and a property-less dependent class. The order of interest that it reflected was not social, but purely anti-social; and those who administered it, judged by the common standard of ethics, or even the common standard of law as applied to private persons, were indistinguishable from a professional-criminal class.
Clearly, then, we have two distinct types of political organization to take into account; and clearly, too, when their origins are considered, it is impossible to make out that the one is a mere perversion of the other. Therefore when we include both types under a general term like government, we get into logical difficulties; difficulties of which most writers on the subject have been more or less vaguely aware, but which, until within the last half-century, none of them has tried to resolve.
Mr. Jefferson, for example, remarked that the hunting tribes of Indians, with which he had a good deal to do in his early days, had a highly organized and admirable social order, but were "without government." Commenting on this, he wrote Madison that "it is a problem not clear in my mind that [this] condition is not the best," but he suspected that it was "inconsistent with any great degree of population." Schoolcraft observes that the Chippewas, though living in a highly-organized social order, had no "regular" government. Herbert Spencer, speaking of the Bechuanas, Araucanians and Koranna Hottentots, says they have no "definite" government; while Parkman, in his introduction to The Conspiracy of Pontiac, reports the same phenomenon, and is frankly puzzled by its apparent anomalies.
Paine's theory of government agrees exactly with the theory set forth by Mr. Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence. The doctrine of natural rights, which is explicit in the Declaration, is implicit in Common Sense;2 and Paine's view of the "design and end of government" is precisely the Declaration's view, that "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men"; and further, Paine's view of the origin of government is that it "derives its just powers from the consent of the governed." Now, if we apply Paine's formulas or the Declaration's formulas, it is abundantly clear that the Virginian Indians had government; Mr. Jefferson's own observations show that they had it. Their political organization, simple as it was, answered its purpose. Their code-apparatus sufficed for assuring freedom and security to the individual, and for dealing with such trespasses as in that state of society the individual might encounter ? fraud, theft, assault, adultery, murder. The same is clearly true of the various peoples cited by Parkman, Schoolcraft and Spencer. Assuredly, if the language of the Declaration amounts to anything, all these peoples had government; and all these reporters make it appear as a government quite competent to its purpose.
Therefore when Mr. Jefferson says his Indians were "without government," he must be taken to mean that they did not have a type of government like the one he knew; and when Schoolcraft and Spencer speak of "regular" and "definite" government, their qualifying words must be taken in the same way. This type of government, nevertheless, has always existed and still exists, answering perfectly to Paine's formulas and the Declaration's formulas; though it is a type which we also, most of us, have seldom had the chance to observe. It may not be put down as the mark of an inferior race, for institutional simplicity is in itself by no means a mark of backwardness or inferiority; and it has been sufficiently shown that in certain essential respects the peoples who have this type of government are, by comparison, in a position to say a good deal for themselves on the score of a civilized character. Mr. Jefferson's own testimony on this point is worth notice, and so is Parkman's. This type, however, even though documented by the Declaration, is fundamentally so different from the type that has always prevailed in history, and is still prevailing in the world at the moment, that for the sake of clearness the two types should be set apart by name, as they are by nature. They are so different in theory that drawing a sharp distinction between them is now probably the most important duty that civilization owes to its own safety. Hence it is by no means either an arbitrary or academic proceeding to give the one type the name of government, and to call the second type simply the State."
[/size]
"without government" is an appealing phrase. 8)
posted the press release about this event to
http://forum.protestwarrior.com/viewtopic.php?p=9267085#9267085
http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=593932#593932
http://207.58.169.66/forum/showthread.php?p=511396#post511396
http://www.libertynewsforum.com/libertynewsforumcgi/YaBB/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1116694448;start=0#0
http://www.bearpit.net/index.php?showtopic=4080
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?p=20947#post20947
http://www.conservativex.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=9882
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=95967
http://boards.billmaher.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=us_politics&Number=713348&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1408111/posts
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=1417.0
http://www.politicaldiscussion.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9747#9747
http://www.politicscafe.com/forum/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=2359;start=0#lastPost
http://www.youngelephant.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3544#post3544
http://forums.delphiforums.com/bully/start
http://liberalforum.org/liberalforum//index.php?showtopic=11027
plus some NH forums listed earlier in this thread
Here is some good advice from an NH resident for anyone planning future civil dis.
From merrimackforum.org
>> DadaOrwell wrote:
What are your thoughts on how they could fight this (considering there are only 360 of them in state so far with average turnout of 15 a their events)? >>
RBarnes wrote:
<< O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone; and you have no longer an aristocratical, no longer a democratical spirit. Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation, brought about by the punishment of those in power, inflicted by those who had no power at all?
Patrick Henry, speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
So how do a small amount of people make a difference? There?s the question your organization should be asking itself.
Embarrassment. The government isn?t going to change because it wants to. It?s not going to change because of people want lower taxes (I doubt you can find a single person who would argue their taxes aren?t high enough). No, the only way a politician will change or eliminate a public program is if they are embarrassed to the point of doing so because they fear not doing it would cost them votes. Make the public aware of who signed the bill allowing sex offenders to get free Viagra for instance (for the record it was Teddy Kennedy).
Getting yourselves arrested in protests in which you don?t have a vast majority of the public supporting you on will accomplish nothing. So I?d suggest looking for issues like the Viagra for sex offenders and making it as public a story as possible and start off protesting these things people would support your protests on. Everyone in your organization should have the addresses of where to send letters to the editors not only for all NH papers but most major papers across the country. Flood them with letters expressing examples of government tyranny. Spell out in black and white exactly where the government is over stepping its bounds and let people come to their own conclusions. If your arguments are strong and sensible people will support them and back you on them? then politicians will either have to wake up and accept what people want or eventually get voted out of office. But the key is getting your arguments out to the public. Try to get yourselves booked on radio talk shows such as Jay Severin or even smaller shows like the one the coalition of NH taxpayers puts on every Thursday. Bring your message to the public, educate the public as to what too look for as far as government over stepping its bounds. And make the government aware that you will bring to light every off the wall thing they try to pull.
Just look at this forum? while there is a lot of joking and people giving you a hard time because of your protests, you have at least started discussion. Discussion of what the governments role should be is the first step. Encourage it and embrace it.>>
That's good feedback, Dada.
And the writer is correct about shaming government into change. It does require a voting majority to "shame" the politicians into changing laws, because left to themselves, politicians are totally shameless.
The value of events such as Mike's, or Russell's, is to wake up the voting public, and stir their outrage, so that they will cry "shame, shame!" at their elected officials. You don't need the support of the majority coming in to the event; you just need to wake up a majority by the time the dust settles.
Kevin
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 01, 2005, 05:23 PM NHFT
Getting yourselves arrested in protests in which you don?t have a vast majority of the public supporting you on will accomplish nothing.
I strongly disagree. The May 9th civil disobedience event created a larger effect than anything I've EVER tried before. The effect of this event was significantly larger than the anti-war protests in Burlington, VT before the Iraq war which included over 3,000 people. It was hardly covered at all even though it was the largest news event in the state by far.
We do not need a majority of public support and we do not need 3,000 people to create a wildly successful event.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 01, 2005, 05:23 PM NHFT
So I?d suggest looking for issues like the Viagra for sex offenders and making it as public a story as possible and start off protesting these things people would support your protests on.
This person believes that publicizing information about a program that gives Viagra to sex offenders would be a more effective protest than a well-planned civil disobedience event? I very strongly disagree.
We will protest what each of us want to protest as individuals, and if the people of New Hampshire truly want liberty, then we will have some support. If not, then liberty is finished, because I'm taking my stand, right here, right now. Either we win freedom right now or it is forever lost.
Right on LR6. If we were protesting something with majority support, then it really wouldn't be much of an issue, would it? Plus how does one gauge if an issue has majority support, anyway?
Dude (s), I'm taking my stand with you> you are offering a resistance which is quite moral . . .
I've been having a hard time because of some issues wich are quite difficult and personal - but your examples rage in my mind. ?- ?RAGEING - LIKE A GOOD COASTAL STORM . . . Thank you.
Thank you for inspiring better action ! ?(or (for today) non-action (on my part) as it may be.
I'm strong enough to wheather the storm - without over-reacting.
Quote from: John on June 02, 2005, 12:34 AM NHFT
I've been having a hard time because of some issues wich are quite difficult and personal
Feel free to talk about these issues if you wish. You are among friends!
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 02, 2005, 12:40 AM NHFT
Quote from: John on June 02, 2005, 12:34 AM NHFT
I've been having a hard time because of some issues wich are quite difficult and personal
Feel free to talk about these issues if you wish.? You are among friends!
Thank you! 8)
I'll be Ok.
I am having fun - even when/if times are difficult.
Things
will get better.
We're home now. :)
We having an insomniac festival tonight??
If all you had to do was show individual polititians were immoral......Ted Kennedy would not be in office.
Insomniac fring/freinds?
Quote from: ethanpooley on June 01, 2005, 11:27 AM NHFT
Btw, I loved this line from the article on the Freedom to Travel event: "Kanning?s ... inspirations, he said, are Ghandi and Fisher."
Talk about a perfect example of how activism snowballs! Fisher is inspired by Ghandi, and takes action. The very next person to take action cites Ghandi AND Fisher. I love it.
How about Ghandi's muse?: Thoreau
I know I got here through "Civil Disobedience" mostly.....just because I was born here doesn't mean I owe this government taxes. :)
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 02, 2005, 07:17 AM NHFT
How about Ghandi's muse?: Thoreau
Oh, Thoreau is my personal favorite by far. But he didn't really practice the same brand of civil disobedience that Ghandi and King did. He didn't consider the government to be his to look after; he considered it the government's own duty (like the duty of its constituents) to stay out of his affairs. He acknowledged no obligation to government, but only to his neighbors. When he referred to "civil disobedience" he meant "disobedience to civil authority", as opposed to other kinds of authority. Ghandi and King mean "disobedience in a civilized manner". Thoreau was simply a free Man living his life without apology to anyone. He never really took on anything like the roles that Ghandi and King did, and to do so wouldn't have appealed to him. My impression is that if he were not naturally nonviolent, Thoreau might have been quite violent when confronted by the State. He had nothing but overflowing praise for John Brown, for example. Called him the only real Man in the Nation or something like that, if I remember correctly.
Quote from: russellkanning on June 02, 2005, 07:39 AM NHFT
I know I got here through "Civil Disobedience" mostly.....just because I was born here doesn't mean I owe this government taxes. :)
What, you didn't sign the "social contract" where you pledge your life's labour to the state?
The Monitor called to talk to Russell :)
Quote from: katdillon on June 02, 2005, 10:44 AM NHFT
The Monitor called to talk to Russell :)
I gave them your number. ;)
Dan Barrick at the Concord Monitor called 3 hours ago and we talked for a long time about the manicure event, Russell's event, and other possible events and activities planned for the future. We also talked about the current status and future of the movement.
Dan just called back about 10 minutes ago and asked even more questions about the manicure event.
He specifically asked why we use the analogies of Gandhi's movement, the civil rights movement, and the women's suffrage movement when our situation is nowhere near as bad as India's situation during the occupation.
I told him the only real difference between those movements and ours is that we want far more freedom than Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr ever envisioned - even more freedom than the founding fathers thought possible.
He also asked to be put in touch with Sidney in Kentucky so I just sent Dan's info to him.
This is going to be HUGE. :o
The American colonists and Gandhi started out just looking for their rights as British subjects......and got more radical.
We have been asking the government to be nice to us for a while now..........so the time has come to force the issue.
Gandhi's epic success with civil disobedience was unprecedented in the history of the world. Gandhi derived all of his energy from within.
He believed so much in the power of truth and self-suffering that he was able to gather enormous spiritual strength from within himself - more power than he could control.
Two people today brought up the general idea to me that true freedom has never been possible before and is not possible now.
History and assumptions are irrelevant to what is possible. We are attempting to do something that has never been attempted before. For that reason alone, we cannot doubt that it can be done.
Gandhi's life is proof that freedom is within our grasp regardless of the power of the system that enslaves us. Boundless spiritual power derived from within can defeat any tyrant. Every tyrant falls - there are no exceptions. If and when we are successful, our feat will also be unprecedented in the history of the world. It can be done and it will be done. We will be the ones to do it, right here, right now.
Damn you Russell.
So this am I was on a flight at 7am from Vegas to Salt Lake City.
They asked for my id and I gave it ( feeling guilty the whole time).
I did not take my shoes off. I got the 'extra security'. They asked me to turn my belt buckle down. I said 'No, if you want to pat me down pat me down but I won't help you.' He then got mad asked me again. I refused. He called over a supervisor. The supervisor asked me. I refused tell him that the 4th Amend. says I don't have to. He asked me what the 4th Amend was. I told him to look it up. ( I still haven't got my metal ones yet). He said that TSA does not have the authority to do it and that I would have to leave and reenter security. I was getting a little pissed.Big stink. 20 minutes later Vegas pd appears. I explain that although I don't agree with patting me down I am allowing it to happen I just don't want to help them do it. Vegas PD then pats me down. TSA got my name and flight etc. We shall see what happens.
I plan on writing a letter asking for all the rules of TSA. I am going to send it to TSA, my Senators and Congressman. Maybe if we got a couple hundred letters going we can find out the 'secrets rules of TSA'.
Russell are you trying to make me a radical >:D? ( You too Mike!!)
Chris
Woohoo, Dreepa, you rock!!
It could spread.....boy the appealing to the constitution thing worked out well.....the guy doesn't even know it exists. :-\
It is going to be a matter of who outlasts who.....the TSA/PD or "we the people"
Quote from: Dreepa on June 03, 2005, 12:33 AM NHFT
I did not take my shoes off. I got the 'extra security'. They asked me to turn my belt buckle down. I said 'No, if you want to pat me down pat me down but I won't help you.' He then got mad asked me again. I refused.
NICE!!! Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!!! :) :) :) I am very proud of you.
Quote from: Dreepa on June 03, 2005, 12:33 AM NHFT
Russell are you trying to make me a radical >:D?? ( You too Mike!!)
Yes.
too late Dreepa is a radical.....he is just not cooperating as much anymore. 8)
Russel, perhaps you could make a t-shirt with the 4th ammendment on the front and the entire bill of rights on the back for this event.
I don't like the constitution that much.....maybe that one would work good for Dreepa or others. 8)
Quote from: JonM on June 03, 2005, 10:16 AM NHFT
Russel, perhaps you could make a t-shirt with the 4th ammendment on the front and the entire bill of rights on the back for this event.
That is a great idea.
I fly a lot for my job. That could be my travel shirt.
8)
So my flight today from SLC to SFO. They did not ask me to take off my shoes and I went right through. So I decided to ask a Supervisor what are the rules about shoes and 'pat downs'. His answer, 'I am not allowed to tell you.' 'You mean it is a secret', I said.
"yes'. I said I thought I lived in the USA not USSR. He didn't get it and said that it was because the US govt doesn't want terrorists to find out.
I told him that as soon as I find the list I am going to put it up on the internet. >:D
Quote from: FTL_Ian on June 02, 2005, 10:08 AM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on June 02, 2005, 07:39 AM NHFT
I know I got here through "Civil Disobedience" mostly.....just because I was born here doesn't mean I owe this government taxes. :)
What, you didn't sign the "social contract" where you pledge your life's labour to the state?
Ya. But if you're willing to sign, won't they give you a nice badge?
I'm sure I've read about it somehere. It's a very personal badge, and you
can must keep it with you EVERYWHERE I go. They say it will be a nice (safe) badge.
It think they were calling it REAL ID; and it will have ALL of your personal infomation on it. Not only that but - YOU CAN KEEP IT FOREVER - They will even update it constantly as they see fit . . . in a few short years they will even put a GPS chip in there "for you" . . . Maybe soon they'll even put a small one under our skin.
They must love us very much and just don't want us to get lost.
All we need to agree to is giving up Freedon & Dignity!
So you can run into a lot of interesting situations in a week at the airport. :(
Cool...Claire Wolfe mentioned Russell:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/columns/wolfe050601.html
"Precisely," Dora-the-Yalie piped up, springing to her feet in the front row. "Like Russell Kanning from New Hampshire. He's going to board a plane on June 11 without government ID or get arrested. He's doing it as a protest gesture, inspired by Gandhi. We should encourage more people to take stands like that."
and it links to nhfree.com.
Russell, are you going to put your letter to the TSA online?
Oh yea.....I sent one to the guy who runs the airport....but didn't keep a copy.
I said.... I hoped we could make it easier and more comfortable for people to fly out of our airport and told him how I like the Manchester airport. I just think that the TSA guys are not treating us very well. :)
Quote from: russellkanning on May 31, 2005, 05:51 PM NHFT
In the fight against National ID and TSA insanity, there have been many great articles written, but not much action taken.......that is why we are starting our non-cooperation campaign.
On June 11th we need to combine our efforts.....during the civil disobedience we should be handing out flyers with links to all the great websites and stories about the problems with National ID and alternatives. We also should have as many liberty lovers as possible available to talk to the media and onlookers about their thoughts on our growing police state.
Kat will be putting together a flyer before the event and would love ideas for what to put on it. We also could use as many friendly freedom lovers to spread the word at the airport. :)
Is it OK if I dress like a Hare Krishna?
That will bring back good memories of LAX and the San Diego Zoo 8)
I like the idea.
Quote from: Friday on June 04, 2005, 09:27 AM NHFT
Is it OK if I dress like a Hare Krishna?
I wanted someone to go with him and dress like Obi-One and when they ask to see his ID, you could wave your hand and say, "You don't need to see his identification."
Quote from: russellkanning on June 04, 2005, 05:56 AM NHFT
So you can run into a lot of interesting situations in a week at the airport. :(
I am new here and am interested in this whole airport thing....What are they doing at that place!? We have the right to fly without be intruded on!!!!
Quote from: katdillon on June 04, 2005, 09:37 AM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on June 04, 2005, 09:27 AM NHFT
Is it OK if I dress like a Hare Krishna?
I wanted someone to go with him and dress like Obi-One and when they ask to see his ID, you could wave your hand and say, "You don't need to see his identification."
That is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Dreepa on June 04, 2005, 04:08 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on June 04, 2005, 09:37 AM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on June 04, 2005, 09:27 AM NHFT
Is it OK if I dress like a Hare Krishna?
I wanted someone to go with him and dress like Obi-One and when they ask to see his ID, you could wave your hand and say, "You don't need to see his identification."
That is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah LOL I spit a little soda on the keyboard reading that. ;D
Quote from: russellkanning on May 31, 2005, 05:51 PM NHFT
Kat will be putting together a flyer before the event and would love ideas for what to put on it. We also could use as many friendly freedom lovers to spread the word at the airport. :)
Good, remind me to pick some up from you guys before the 11th
Just for the record the quote below and some of the other quotes listed as "DadaOrwell" are actualy quotes from RBarnes on Merrimackforum.org
<<Getting yourselves arrested in protests in which you don?t have a vast majority of the public supporting you on will accomplish nothing.>>
I am much more supportive of all these protests than Barnes is.
More coverage from the Portsmouth Herald, with a Concord Monitor byline . . .
Libertarians push limits of law (http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/06052005/news/46059.htm)
Quote from: JonM on June 05, 2005, 09:43 AM NHFT
More coverage from the Portsmouth Herald, with a Concord Monitor byline . . .
Libertarians push limits of law (http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/06052005/news/46059.htm)
Surprising comments from Gorman.
The key, of course, is that you need both publicity
and traditional politics. You can talk to your reps all you want, but unless you get the publicity to get others on their case, nothing will change. And you can do all the publicity events you want, but unless you take advantage of it and follow up with the legislature, the law won't change.
Kevin
I'm glad Russel is such an affable guy, cause if anyone is paying attention this part should make his life interesting.
Quote
Such advice holds little attraction for Kanning. He claims not to have paid federal income tax since 1998 and drives without a valid driver?s license because he thinks it?s a nuisance. He?s considering burning his Social Security card. The idea of speaking before the Legislature disgusts him.
"I wish there weren?t things like government because they just get in the way of us living our lives," he said. "I don?t want to have to deal with it at all."
Libertarians push limits of law
By Daniel Barrick
Concord Monitor
CONCORD - This Saturday, Russell Kanning will attempt to board a flight from Manchester to Philadelphia, carrying nothing but a Bible and a copy of the Declaration of Independence. He doesn't expect to get very far.
In what he calls an act of civil disobedience, Kanning, a 35-year-old accountant from Keene and a staunch libertarian, will refuse to show identification to airline officials or submit to a security search. But even if he's barred from his flight, Kanning hopes his actions will highlight what he considers overly burdensome state intrusion.
"They're not going to be happy I'm doing this," Kanning said. "But people shouldn't have to go through all the hassles we have to go through. They just want to control us."
Kanning's performance at Manchester Airport will be the latest in a series of public protests that libertarians here and elsewhere are using to promote their belief in individual freedom and limited government.
Last month, a Newmarket man spent a night in jail after he filed a friend's fingernails without a license from the state cosmetology board. The man, Mike Fisher, made sure to reap maximum publicity for the stunt, telling police, state officials, and local news outlets about his plans ahead of time. Unlicensed manicuring is a misdemeanor in New Hampshire.
"Normally, we would like to handle this kind of situation with a warning," said Lt. Jay Brown of the Concord Police Department, which handled Fisher's arrest. "But this individual was asked to stop and when he did not stop, we arrested him."
Other planned demonstrations include starting a private mail service, to call attention to the federal government's monopoly on first-class mail delivery, and selling bottles of liquor, in defiance of state liquor laws. A crew of libertarians in Kentucky plans to serve alcohol to an underage military veteran next month, letting local police know ahead of time for maximum exposure.
"Libertarians have spent so much time complaining about government, but civil disobedience is a path to actually fixing things," Kanning said. "Who knows what this might inspire?"
But enthusiasm for such public displays isn't shared throughout New Hampshire's libertarian community. Some libertarians dismiss protesters like Kanning and Fisher as publicity hounds who risk turning people off with their stunts.
"This kind of protesting is non-productive, counter-productive, and in my opinion is quite sophomoric and egotistical in its approach," said Don Gorman, a former libertarian state representative from Deerfield. "Individuals can pursue the cause of liberty as they see fit, but the way to accomplish those goals is by working with the establishment."
Increasingly visible protests come as libertarians of all stripes seek a more prominent platform in New Hampshire. The Free State Project earned national headlines last year when its members settled on New Hampshire as the setting for its experiment in coordinated pro-liberty living. The project's leaders hope to move 20,000 like-minded libertarians to the state in the next few years, fostering an environment of limited government. They say hundreds have already made the move.
New Hampshire "is really where it's happening," said Fisher, who moved to the state a year ago as part of the Free State Project. "We've all come here to take part in this. More and more, we are starting to translate our ideas into reality, and people aren't going to be able to ignore it anymore."
John Babiarz, chairman of the New Hampshire Libertarian Party, said such an approach represented a generational shift in libertarian thinking.
"A decade ago, we tried to make changes by lobbying politicians and talking to people, and we got nowhere," Babiarz said. "The newer breed of younger people are making the same arguments, but instead of through the State House, they're doing it in public by creating a public spectacle. As long as it's done peacefully, it makes for great political theater and it brings the issue into the news."
Like all political parties, Babiarz said, the Libertarian Party includes both purists and pragmatists. The two sides may disagree over tactics while still sharing the same goals.
Critics in the movement say libertarians can have a bigger impact by working with the existing power structures. Gorman, for example, leads tours of the State House for libertarians who want to see government from the inside. He encourages his students to meet their local representatives, observe the lobbying process and submit their own legislation. He said he's already grooming potential candidates for next year's elections.
Staged protests might make sense in oppressive police states, Gorman said. But in New Hampshire, the relatively relaxed political environment make such displays unnecessary.
"This is not a closed society where it's difficult to reach your elected official, as it is in a lot of states," Gorman said. "If you want to talk to the governor, walk into the chamber at the next council meeting and do it."
His advice for frustrated libertarians: "Your first job is to be a good citizen. Get involved in the Boy Scouts, in local boards and committees, in the volunteer fire department. Seek political office, if you like, and bring your philosophy into the realm of government."
Such advice holds little attraction for Kanning. He claims not to have paid federal income tax since 1998 and drives without a valid driver's license because he thinks it's a nuisance. He's considering burning his Social Security card. The idea of speaking before the Legislature disgusts him.
"I wish there weren't things like government because they just get in the way of us living our lives," he said. "I don't want to have to deal with it at all."
Quote from: KBCraig on June 05, 2005, 09:54 AM NHFT
Surprising comments from Gorman.
No, and he talks that way in person. It is a little surprising to have him of all people call someone "egotistical". He's the reason I have nothing to do with the NHLA.
Nice catch JonM.....the guy did a pretty good article because he spent enough time to get a feel for what is going on.
I purposely told him about other ways I don't cooperate with the government.....they just don't do anything about it.....that is why we have to step it up a little to force the action some. :)
Quote from: JonM on June 05, 2005, 09:43 AM NHFT
More coverage from the Portsmouth Herald, with a Concord Monitor byline . . .
Libertarians push limits of law (http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/06052005/news/46059.htm)
SSSSSWWWWEET!
Nice coment by John Babiarz regarding a "new breed".
"Your first job is to be a good citizen. Get involved in the Boy Scouts, in local boards and committees, in the volunteer fire department. Seek political office, if you like, and bring your philosophy into the realm of government."
"I'm glad we have people to tell us what our job is"-Kat Dillon
I don't want to bring any of my life "into the realm of government"
Quote from: John on June 05, 2005, 10:09 AM NHFT
SSSSSWWWWEET!
Nice coment by John Babiarz regarding a "new breed".
That pretty much sums up my thinking....I have been complaining about government for years.....it is time for me to do something about it.....and that doesn't include talking with polititians. :)
Oh. And speaking of talking that way in person; couldn't you even hear Russell's voice while reading this?
Very Nice!
As I was reading Gorman's "advice", I was struck with a thought, that if he had been at the Continental Congress, he would have voted against the Declaration as being "too radical", and urging fellow delegates to work within the system.
In pausing to think about the Revolution, and its causes, I was struck by the thought that conditions before the Revolution were far less onerous than the present day, yet the Colonials wouldn't put up with it.
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
And, neither should we.
This is great!? ?:D? The fight goes on!
Russell is a good man and I have absolute confidence in him.? The success of this event will be more than any of us could have ever hoped for because our cause is just.
Babiarz's quotes were great!
Gorman's quotes did not surprise me, but he was correct on the importance of volunteerism.? It is very beneficial to be involved in your local community.? Russell has done this by coming out to support our LSF fundraiser in Keene on May 21st.? There are many things we can do to be active in our local communities.? It is unfortunate that Gorman does not say anything about all of our volunteer efforts.
Didn't Russell also help out at the 4/24 FSP Little Pick Up Day?? I thought we had a picture of that somewhere.? That would be a great photo in support of him.? :)
QuoteStaged protests might make sense in oppressive police states, Gorman said. But in New Hampshire, the relatively relaxed political environment make such displays unnecessary.
What do you call a place where city police arrest a man for giving unlicensed manicures and the state attorney general threatened him with stiffer penalties?
Hey I also pick up my own trash and help little old ladies cross the street. :-X
I also burn trash ....like UN flags
From now on, whenever we talk to the media, we're going to tell them we're members of the NHLA. Now there's some justice for Don Gorman. Denouncing us to the newspapers! :o
Quote from: katdillon on June 05, 2005, 03:13 PM NHFT
From now on, whenever we talk to the media, we're going to tell them we're members of the NHLA. Now there's some justice for Don Gorman.
You're an evil, nasty, conspiring woman.
I like that!
;D ;D ;D
Kevin
I thought we were Concerned Democrats when we burned UN flags.
Maybe we are NH Progressives when we oppose taxes.
QuoteOther planned demonstrations include starting a private mail service, to call attention to the federal government?s monopoly on first-class mail delivery, and selling bottles of liquor, in defiance of state liquor laws.
These are only the ideas we've already come up with.
Gandhi never stopped imagining new ideas to fight the British. Not all of them worked, but he wore them down with time. That is my plan.
Individuals can pursue the cause of liberty as they see fit, but the way to accomplish those goals is by working with the establishment."
Yep and I'M going to go work at Ford and build me a Toyota.
Quote from: Pat K on June 05, 2005, 04:33 PM NHFT
Individuals can pursue the cause of liberty as they see fit, but the way to accomplish those goals is by working with the establishment."
Yep and I'M going to go work at Ford and build me a Toyota.
ROFL!!!!!!!
I stopped by the NHLA meeting tonight. Had to leave when Gorman showed - Otis growled at him >:D
Quote from: rhelwig on June 05, 2005, 07:12 PM NHFT
I stopped by the NHLA meeting tonight. Had to leave when Gorman showed - Otis growled at him? >:D
Otis and One-eyed Pete would have been buddies. ;D
It's funny, I heard Russell tell the reporter, "I've never been much of a libertarian type." and that got transformed into Russell being a stauch libertarian. heh. I guess this one heard him when he said this wasn't an FSP event.
How long before people who speak out against the government wind up on the no-fly list?
Good article about National ID...I hadn't heard that they want to make the system worldwide compatible.
http://www.ncc-1776.com/tle2005/tle321-20050529-05.html
THE LIBERTARIAN ENTERPRISE
Number 321, May 29, 2005
"Here come the spoilers"
Not a Good Week
by Ron Beatty
bearfreeliberty@yahoo.com
Exclusive to TLE
As I'm sure all of you have noticed, the last week or so has not been a good one for the rights of free people. Not only has the REAL ID act passed, but now those persons who claim to represent us are attempting to compel other countries to adopt similar measures, making their ID procedures compatible with the contemptable schemes of our elected ninnies. The effect of this is to create not just a national ID system, but in effect, a de facto world ID system. The technologies contemplated for implementing this system include biometric information which is imprinted in a magnetic code on whatever form of ID card they come up with, and sub-dermal RFID chips, which can be 'read' by a scanner, either hand held or a portal type system, similar to airport metal detectors.
At the present time, the biometric system seems to be the preferred system. However, there are problems with this, including the fact that there is no worldwide standard for reading and interpreting biometric indicators. About the only widely accepted standard is the retinal scan, and even that has some detractors.
Hence, we are seeing ever more development of the RFID chips, with government, school systems (is there any difference?) urging parents to get their children 'chipped' for their own safety. So far, there has been less of a protest against this than I would have thought. However, this may be because it is 'for the children', and given the numbers of child abductions and murders, I suppose it is natural that fearful people want to be safe.
There is no safety short of death, people!
No matter what you do, there is no way that you can be totally safe! If you can't guarantee your own safety, how the hell can you expect someone who doesn't know you, doesn't give a damn about you, except as a source of 'food' (taxes), to make you safe? Ladies and gentlemen, our elected officials don't give a damn about us as individuals. All they care about is votes and money. They want to keep getting elected so they can keep stealing, and that is all they care about. Now, I have to admit there are a few exceptions to this. Ron Paul comes to mind, but there are very few.
Take a close look at your representatives voting record. Do they vote for increased government power and authority? Do they vote for increased taxation? Do they vote for increased government 'supervision' over every day matters? Do they vote for increased security for government employees, at the expense of the rights of the NON-governmental citizens? If they do, they will vote to plant RFID chips in your body. Of course, this will be sold as an 'anti-terrorism' or 'national security' measure. You will hear things like: Well, this will let us identify missing children easier," or perhaps something like: If there is ever another attack like the WTC, this will let us identify the bodies easier, to spare the families the anguish of not knowing,' or some other similar verbal excrement. Naturally, this will only be done after the 'failure' of biometric ID systems to prevent another catastrophe, which is almost guaranteed by the fact that the systems are not presently compatible, that they are subject to interpretation by human beings, and that not everyplace is capable of implementing this type of system.
My personal belief is that at some point, there will be a call for an absolutely foolproof method of personal identification. This belief is based on recent history, and the actions of the craven, pusillanimous, piss ants in Washington over the last few months and years. I think that within the next year we will see a call for implantable chips. Perhaps this will begin as a prerequisite for government housing or some other form of government assistance. After all, this would be a foolproof way to eliminate fraud and waste, wouldn't it? It would be a foolproof way to make sure only 'authorized' persons were in any particular area, wouldn't it? With chip readers at every door, there would never be an unsolved crime again, would there?
These are the rationalizations we're going to hear. We may even hear things like "Well, women use Norplant contraceptives. Why would they object to having something else planted under the skin for their own personal safety?"
Now, I know some will automatically brand me as some form of 'conspiracy theorist'. So be it. I have not, and will not accuse anyone of any type of conspiracy, only of cowardice, greed and lust for power, and authoritarian behaviour. I say that the pack of elitist scum who believe that they know best for everyone is guilty of this type of behaviour. I say that their own actions will eventually backfire against them. Just a cursory reading of history will show that every single time a 'ruling class' has gotten to the point that they behave as if they are better than the ordinary citizen, there has been some form of social unrest, up to and including revolutions, terrorism, civil wars, and other forms of social chaos. Will it happen here?
I don't know. I do know, however that there are many people who will not accept being 'chipped.' I include myself in this. I will never willingly accept any form of implantable ID. Before I do that, I will resist this authoritarian, tyrannical scheme with any means within my power. To this end, I am suggesting a massive campaign of non-compliance with any form of nationalized personal ID. Don't use credit cards, use cash. Buy from individuals, rather than 'authorized dealers. Whenever possible, use barter. Do your best to stay under the radar of the hyena dung bureaucrats. I shouldn't say that, I guess. Even hyena dung can be useful as fertilier! I'm sure you can each think of other ways to monkey wrench the system. Join with like minded people to form communities dedicated to living free. Don't publicize it, that just draws negative attention. Just do it!
Who knows? We may all end up in gulags or concentration camps like Camp X-ray in Gitmo. Or, we might just end up free people, in a free country once again.
Here's a good quote from the Dredd Scott v. Sanford case:
===
It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognised as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; ...
===
This was one attorney arguing against treating Black people as citizens, instead of property.
How are American citizens of any color treated these days when travelling from state to state? Hmmm...
I strenuously object to your drawing a parallel between Camp X-Ray and concentration camps and gulags. It's intellectually dishonest and minimizes the immense horror and inhumanity perpetrated against the victims of actual concentration camps and gulags.
Surely you can object to the detention of individuals by the US government without resorting to repellent and dishonest hyperbole.
If I am sent there....will any of you really know what is happening to me?
Quote from: russellkanning on June 06, 2005, 11:12 AM NHFT
If I am sent there....will any of you really know what is happening to me?
To make light of the situation, I;ve been wondering what HAS ALREADY happened to you. ;D
Libertarians plan protests to promote political beliefs
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050606/NEWS0201/106060019/-1/CITIZEN
The FBI dropped by Russell's place today in Keene while I was over here and asked to see him. He wasn't here at the time, but after they left I contacted Russell at work and he is going to call them and invite them over to his workplace if they want to chat immediately. Save tax dollars and all that.
They are probably pulling up outside the office where he works right about now.
-----
Sent this to the Gardner Goldsmith show at WGIR in Manchester:
Gard: FBI came looking for Russell today.
One of the agents was Phil Christiana, special agent from the Boston Division (though he's HQ'd here in state).
I've forgotten the other agent's name.
more details and Updates will be posted to http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=1102.0
and (more slowly) to the front page at NHfree.com
I just informed my contacts about this. So far I've contacted the Concord Monitor, Portsmouth Herald, Exeter Newsletter, WMUR Channel 9, and the Associated Press.
If we can write up a quick press release I'll send it off to all of these contacts as well as the Union Leader, the Boston Globe, and Foster's.
More details: The agents didn't initially idendify themselves as such , just asked if I was Russell. Also asked for "Katherine." I told them they weren't here then asked who they were. One said something like "we're with a company in Portsmouth." I told them Kat was how she says her name and that she would be back in a couple hours, that Russell wasn't here. I asked if this was related to Russell's plan to go to the airport and they sort of grinned and said "maybe." I said I'll take that as a yes and grinned back :) They said someting like if you could help us get in touch with him that would help us. And I said I'm still a little hazy on who "us" is. And then they said OK we're with the FBI and one showed me his badge (although it looked more like an I.D.)
So then I relaxed a lot more and sat down on the steps thanked them for telling me who they were. They said they were more or less just wanting to talk to him , indicated that they could see some potential benefit in what he is planning to do, i.e. that it might expose some problems in the system. they said they wanted to do this within the next couple hours rather than having to come back or wait until Russell's shift was over. I told them we shared a couple of goals with them, i.e. ensuring that no passengers are delayed and ensuring that the agents themselves be able to complete their assignment as fast as possible to reduce tax expenditure.
I told them I didn't have russell's permision to tell them where Russell works but that I would be happy to try and contact him there and try to put them all in touch. They indicated a willingness to leave and come back after the call; I told them all I needed was for them to be out of earshot during the call. (if we have a wiretap already not much I can do about that right? ) When I called russell at work I was able to give him Phil's cell number , Russell indicated he'd call Phil and invite the agents over to the office where he's working. That's the last thing I know.
The agents were polite but of course not very honest at first. I told them their presence was "welcome." I told them we were operating on the Gandhi model, that Gandhi always was friendly to the British no matter what they did to him. they are pulling up in the driveway again brb
It's 2 PM! Oh Shit, they got Dave!
I was just thinking the same thing.
Exciting as this is I have to go out and work on my Damn truck!
Nah, Dave was last active 16 minutes ago, so he's probably typing something right now.
Quote from: president on June 06, 2005, 01:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 06, 2005, 01:06 PM NHFT
Nah, Dave was last active 16 minutes ago, so he's probably typing something right now.
did that just change from 8 mins to 16 mins???
Maybe Phil is using dave's account? ;)
Yeah, I double-checked and changed it.
Alright...just got done talking to the agents for another 15 minutes. They indicated to me that they had not heard from russell because they can't get their cell to work out here. He's probably left them a message.
Now that I have russell's permission i have given them his number at work and the name of the company where he works and they are headed there.
The agents indicated to me a desire to establish some degree of trust, I told them I appreciated that but didn't so much appreciate that they had told me they were with "a company in Portsmouth" at first. Phil indicated to me that his reason for doing that was to protect russell from the spectacle of agents publicly identifying themselves as such to individuals who might take it out on russell. That seems like a fair explanation and I accept it.
One of them asked me if there were a lot of porcupines here when he saw the porcupine sign on kat's door. I said do you mean the kind that look like that or the kind that look like me? He said huh? I told him what "Porcupines" were. He had heard of the FSP. Mark Alford asked me a lot of questions about whether there was anyone in the group that was violent and what I would do if I heard someone planning to do a Tim McVeigh type thing. I told him we'd been lucky so far and that the closest thing we'd ever had to that kind of problem was zack, that the Supremacist types who've stumbled into our ditch always seem to run away in short order. But I said it's been a long term worry of ours that we would eventually attract someone needlessly violent like that and pay a high price for it. They asked me about our philosophy which I indicated varies quite a bit from person to person but mainly centers around the idea that government exists to protect us from each other and should do little else.
I'm not sure this was the right thing for me to do but one agent asked if he could have permission to come into the house to use the restroom. I told him you do not have permission to search the house but using the restroom is a fundamental human right; you do have permission to do that. I think that is what Gahndi or Jesus would have done but can't be sure it's what Kat or Russell would have done... I hope I may be forgiven if not!
The second agent's name is Mark Alford also from the Boston division but based in NH. They are probably arriving at russell's work place around now. They exressed a strong desire to keep a low profile so as not to disturb russell's workplace situation but I told them half the people at his job probably already know what's up :)
BTW the agents first arrived at about 12:30 PM.
I called and left a message on their phone to contact me tomorrow, since today is my last day at this job.
any press releases that go out....should ideally have a link to this discussion
Beverly from the Associated Press just called and I talked to her for about 3 minutes about this.
Baggs! I have to go pick someone up from the airport!
I'll be back in a few hours.
Dave, you should work at becoming a little less forthcoming. No need to volunteer stuff about Zack, or, subjective fears about a possible violent member. Ours is about as non-violent movement as could exist.
Lloyd
Thank you Dave for the update. I agree with Lloyd, if there are none currently involved, then the answer should have been "no, we have no violent members". Just my two cents.
JP
Re: letting the FBI into the bathroom: pretty much the first thing you see as you go in there is Albert Jay Nock's Our Enemy the State ::)
Quote from: katdillon on June 06, 2005, 01:41 PM NHFT
Re:? letting the FBI into the bathroom:? pretty much the first thing you see as you go in there is Albert Jay Nock's Our Enemy the State? ::)
Well I guess thats better than Send in the Waco Killers- :P
I concur!
I remember when I was going through FBI questioning for some stuff awhile back, they were very disturbed by my copy of Unintended Consequences.
JP
The Concord Monitor article is in the Keene Sentinel today.
Can't be too long ago! He's such a youngin' :)
I was involved in an Anti-Patriot Act civil disobedience stunt where we (some friends of mine and I) bought some books on Islam, Terrorism, Bomb-making on a credit card and then donated them to public libraries.
JP
russell just got back from his chat with the feds
i've just interviewed russell and am working up a press release
You rock, JP!
Dave said he wished he had.
Press release.? feel free to change it and/or send it out as is.
---
From NHfree.com
Keene, New Hampshire
6/6/05
FBI questions Keene I.D. refusenik
Two FBI agents from the Boston division paid a visit to Russell Kanning's house in Keene today, about two weeks after he announced he would seek to board a Manchester airline flight with no I.D.
The 35-year-old libertarian activist wasn't home but rather cheerfully agreed to meet up with the agents at his workplace.? Special Agents Phil Christiana and Mark Alford spent about an hour interviewing him around 2PM on Monday, June 6.
"They were really friendly," he says, "they obviously weren't there to arrest me..."The thing they were most concerned about was whether I was actually going to stay non- violent."? Kanning says the answer to that is "yes."
"There's nothing those guys can do to me at the airport that would make me use violence."
He says the agents seemed to relax somewhat and left after coming to the conclusion that he is not a physical threat and also that he cannot be deterred from his act of civil disobedience.? ?They did spend time lecturing him on national security issues and the fact that "flying is not a right."
"My impression after talking to them is that the likelihood of them breaking into my house or doing something like that is small."
Kanning also told the agents he has not paid Income Taxes since '98.
Background details contact information for Kanning are included in the original press release below.
----
Original press release:
From NHfree.com:
Man Without I.D. Vows to Board Flight or be Jailed
Manchester, NH, May 21, 2005 - Inspired by New Hampshire's "outlaw manicurist," another Granite Stater is stepping forward to peacefully defy license-related laws.? Russell Kanning of Keene has announced he will approach a Transportation Security Administration (TSA) checkpoint at Manchester airport on June 11 and refuse to cooperate with the requirement to show I.D.? "I will either board the plane without I.D. or be arrested," he says.? "In a free country you do not need government permission to travel."? ?The 35-year-old accountant has a ticket to Philidelphia.
Kanning stresses that he will not resist arrest or do anything that might be perceived as physically threatening.? He says this act of nonviolent resistance will follow the model laid down by Gandhi, who used peaceful noncooperation to expel the British from India.? "We will tell them everything we're going to do ahead of time.? We are not going to disrupt the operation of the airport," he says.
Kanning says the parallels with Gandhi's situation go further than a shared belief in nonviolence.? ?"In South Africa (where Gandhi's protests began), Indians had to have special I.D...so it's very similar that way, and he wanted to burn it...He was appealing to that same basic idea that we have rights to not have to have paperwork to be able to move freely."
After the terrorist attacks in 2001, Federal authorities tightened flying restrictions and begain forcing citizens to have both a ticket and identification (usually a driver's license) in order to even enter an airport terminal.? ?Kanning says he refuses to carry a license on principle and disputes the idea that tighter restrictions really make flying safer.
Earlier this month another Gandhi admirer, Mike Fisher of Newmarket, used the Mahatma's techniques to protest business licensing.? After announcing he would perform an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing offices, he carried out his promise, earned a brief trip to jail and received heavy regional media coverage for his viewpoint.
Kanning says Gandhi's and Fisher's examples inspired him to take similar action against the growing "surveillance state."? He believes the Real I.D. amendment passed by the Senate this month will make things even worse.? But he says it's important to stay positive.? "The goal is we want to get to the point where we can travel without having to have paperwork, so this is the beginning of that.? We see light at the end of the tunnel."
Kanning is a member of the FreeStateProject (freestateproject.org), an organization which aims to bring 20,000 liberty lovers to New Hampshire.
Currently the plan is for Kanning to approach the security checkpoint at 12:30 PM.? Journalists and supporters will want to be there by noon.
Summary:
What:? Civil disobedience against ID requirements under federalized airport security.
Where:? Manchester Airport in New Hampshire (exact spot to be determined)
When:? Saturday, June 11 @ noon
Who:? Russell Kanning of Keene, NH, supporters from NHfree.com
Why:? To draw attention to the recent and continuing loss of privacy and freedom due to federalized airport security and National ID.
How:? By approaching a TSA checkpoint with a ticket but no I.D., refusing to show I.D. and refusing to cooperate with the I.D. requirement until arrested or allowed to board the plane.
Contacts:? Russell Kanning:? (603) 357-2049,? Kat Dillon (same number), Mike Fisher (603) 498-7935, NHfree.com
Well Russell if nothing else you might get more Fed. agents to travel to NH, thats good for the economy.
Did you try to get the Boston guy to sign on for the FSP? ;D
LOL! :)
Recent Walter Williams columns:
One (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050406.shtml)
Two (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050413.shtml)
Three (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050420.shtml)
Quote from: russellkanning on June 06, 2005, 05:26 PM NHFT
Recent Walter Williams columns:
One (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050406.shtml)
Two (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050413.shtml)
Three (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050420.shtml)
The good Doctor is one of my favorite columnists, and I'd rather listen to him guest-hosting than listen to Rush (I seldom listen to Rush any more, so I usually miss Williams when he's on).
Have you contacted him or sent him the press releases?
Kevin
No that may be a good idea......when I was talking to the FBI agents they acted as if there should be no limit to what we spend or do to prevent terrorism......but there has to be a limit somewhere....we are wasting time and hassling passengers to "ensure" our safety.......it just isn't possible.
Quote from: www.JimCPerry.com on June 06, 2005, 03:05 PM NHFT
I was involved in an Anti-Patriot Act civil disobedience stunt where we (some friends of mine and I) bought some books on Islam, Terrorism, Bomb-making on a credit card and then donated them to public libraries.
JP
That's awesome!!!
We should put details of it on the Freedom Inspirations page! :) :)
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 06, 2005, 04:16 PM NHFT
Kanning also told the agents he has not paid Income Taxes since '89.
Don't you mean '98?
Dada, for future reference, you should NEVER let the men in black in to use the bathroom. Even if they're asking in complete innocence, I know Keene has fast food restaurants and Starbucks, all of which have public restrooms they can use. But it's more than likely they're not asking in innocence. They're scoping the place for "probable cause", which is what they need to get a search warrant. If they see so much as a bong, Kat and Russell are screwed. And if you really want to be paranoid, they're sticking a bug on something. :-X
I cannot believe this just happened. I'll send this press release to my contacts.
Okay, I just sent it to the Union Leader, Boston Globe, Foster's, Portsmouth Herald, and Concord Monitor.
I also spoke with the Concord Monitor and the Associated Press about this a few hours ago.
The date is also wrong on the press release. It says 5/6 instead of 6/6.
Now would be a *really* good time to make sure you have offsite backups of all your electronic files that you care about (baby pictures, etc.). The Feds love to take people's PC's for investigation. Who knows if/when you'll get them back.
Study: Nonviolent Civic Resistance Key Factor In Building Durable Democracies (http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-news+article+storyid-10806-PHPSESSID-9ce04c5b8ab070b630e52f24ae42f3ea.html)
Nonviolent civic coalitions lead to deep gains for freedom, major new Freedom House study on political transitions finds.
Well if you ever want to get on the bad side of the Boston FBI's office, just ask them about John Zip Connolly. He was one of the FBI agents from that office who was in bed with Whitey Bulger. That office also framed four men they knew to be innocent of murder. The murder was carried out by one of their informants, and with their knowledge and alleged help, they allowed a witness to perjure himself to get them convicted. Two of them died in prison, two were released 30 years later after all of this started to unravel.
Quote from: president on June 06, 2005, 09:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 06, 2005, 08:25 PM NHFT
Study: Nonviolent Civic Resistance Key Factor In Building Durable Democracies (http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-news+article+storyid-10806-PHPSESSID-9ce04c5b8ab070b630e52f24ae42f3ea.html)
Nonviolent civic coalitions lead to deep gains for freedom, major new Freedom House study on political transitions finds.
I thought most of you guys hated democracy......."tyranny of the majority"
When did we start paying you to think?
Quote from: president on June 06, 2005, 07:16 PM NHFT
have you guys seen this, posted 22 May 2005:
http://nhindymedia.org/mod/comments/display/2612/index.php
NH Man without I.D. and a gun vows to board flight or be jailed
You are right...I don't want liberty in my lifetime......I want liberty this summer. :)
It is funny when you think how little liberty we are seeking.....Mike just wants cosmotology licensing to end....I am just wanting to fly. We are not looking for Phillip Morris's right to sell cigs to children ?or something....we are starting slow and some people think we are going too fast.
The FBI agents also didn't like my idea of letting people onto the plane with guns....to help protect ourselves. Maybe someone else can do that one. :)
FBI and Federal Marshalls can be very sneaky, while appearing friendly. I was arrested once by Fed. Marshalls. They put me in the back seat, as usual, then started chatting innocuously. I happened to notice the driver reach down and take out the cigarette lighter from the dashboard. He placed the lighter on top of the dashboard. Why? I wondered would someone do that? Activating a recording device? I mentioned I saw him do it and would have nothing further to say. He looked like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. ;)
If the NHUnderground wasn't already on the Feds radar, you can bet it is now. >:D I urge everyone to keep it in mind when posting. Remember, what you say CAN and WILL be used against you. ???
Russell and I were talking about this and are wondering if maybe we should send both of the FBI agents to join this forum LOL
Quote from: AlanM on June 06, 2005, 11:34 PM NHFT
If the NHUnderground wasn't already on the Feds radar, you can bet it is now.? >:D I urge everyone to keep it in mind when posting. Remember, what you say CAN and WILL be used against you.? ???
Bet they never catch Shorty. ;D
In light of this...
Orchestrating Terrorism (http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts106.html)
As very few, if any, real terrorists have turned up, the FBI has resorted to creating terrorists by soliciting Muslim-Americans and appealing to them with schemes to aid "jihadists."
...I think we all need to realize the REAL possibility that the FBI will try to entrap one or more of us into agreeing to take part in some type of dangerous theoretical future crime.
They will obviously spend YEARS trying to entrap us. We must refuse to violate our principles of nonviolence regardless of what anyone on this forum says or does, or how long they spend trying to do it.
Entrapment is absolutely unjust, and was once illegal, but it is now the status quo.? ?:-\
but I really do like the idea of guns on planes. ;D
The other great thing about participating in only nonviolent civil disobedience is that I don't have to worry about keeping my plans secret from the government. :)
I have been telling people in person, but I should mention it here.....that we can use as many people as possible to show up on Saturday to answer people's questions and help the media understand what we are trying to accomplish. You don't have to participate with me or get dragged in....you can just let onlookers know that your friend doesn't like government IDs and how people are treated at airport screening areas. It should be a fun atmosphere in the airport and I hope everyone enjoys themselves.
I will go through the main screening area at the top of the large staircase/escalators. Kat will stay around to see what happens to me or find out where they are taking me.
I look forward to the event. We are at the beginning of this great revolution and whatever they do to me should not worry you as much as it inspires. No matter where you are you can spread the word amoungst your friends, family, and coworkers about the next adventure one of your friends is undertaking. :) I am still getting positive feedback from the Outlaw Manicurist event and it will be fun to find out what they label this next event.
You mean, it wouldn't be a good idea for a bunch of people to dress up like Prince Harry and walk up to everyone while snapping their boots together and saying "your papers please" in a very bad German accent?
LOL! Please do, Jon!
BTW, if Russell should happen to get on the plane, is there someplace I can hang out around Manchester for several hours? I don't want to drive to Keene and back, when I come to pick him up.
I agree with Russell. ?Remember to brush up on the federalization of airport security in late 2001 through the Aviation Security Act.
There are many links about it on this page:
Freedom to Travel Event (http://www.soulawakenings.com/underground/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=National+ID)
You're a smart group of people. ?I have confidence in everyone here. ?:)
Maybe I should demand their papers. ;D
Kat, of course you can hang with us if Russel is gone awhile on Saturday.
Cathleen
SIGNAGE!!! ?:o ?I can't believe we almost forgot about signage!
Ideas:
PRIVACY IS A
HUMAN RIGHT
FEDERALIZATION
PRIVATE SECURITY
NATIONALIZATION
IS COMMUNISM
TRANSPORTATION
SOCIALISM
ADMINISTRATION
AVIATION SECURITY ACT
NATIONAL ID
REAL ID ACT
FREEDOM
TO TRAVEL
FREEDOM
IS
PRIVACY
TSA DESTROYS FREEDOM
TO PROTECT FREEDOM?
Considering what the FBI said yesterday:
WE HAVE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL
Quote from: cathleeninnh on June 07, 2005, 08:35 AM NHFT
Kat, of course you can hang with us if Russel is gone awhile on Saturday.
Thank you, Cathleen! :)
LOL, Kat!!! :D
Hey, you could hang out with us in Newmarket, but Google says it's a 50-minute drive from Manchester. :-\
SLAVE OR OUTLAW
MAKE YOUR CHOICE
"YOUR PAPERS PLEASE"
IS THAT FREEDOM?
TRAVELING IS A
HUMAN RIGHT
TEMPORARY SAFETY
AT THE PRICE
OF FREEDOM?
HAVE THE TERRORISTS WON?
IF 9/11 WAS AN ATTACK
ON OUR FREEDOM,
HAVE THE TERRORISTS WON?
IF 9/11 WAS AN ATTACK
ON OUR FREEDOM
THE TSA IS OUR SURRENDER
NATIONAL ID:
JUST LIKE CHINA
NATIONAL ID:
JUST LIKE NAZI GERMANY
NATIONAL ID:
JUST LIKE THE USSR
NATIONAL ID:
JUST LIKE RUSSIA
WE ARE NOT FREE.
THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON
LIVE FREE OR DIE
updated version of press release.? feel free to change it and/or send it out as is.
---
From NHfree.com
Keene, New Hampshire
6/6/05
FBI questions Keene I.D. protestor
Two FBI agents from the Boston division paid a visit to Russell Kanning's house in Keene today, about two weeks after he announced he would seek to board a Manchester airline flight with no I.D.
The 35-year-old libertarian activist wasn't home but rather cheerfully agreed to meet up with the agents at his workplace.? Special Agents Phil Christiana and Mark Alford spent about an hour interviewing him around 2PM on Monday, June 6.
"They were really friendly," he says, "they obviously weren't there to arrest me...The thing they were most concerned about was whether I was actually going to stay non-violent."? Kanning says the answer to that is "yes."
"There's nothing those guys can do to me at the airport that would make me use violence."
He says the agents seemed to relax somewhat and left after coming to the conclusion that he is not a physical threat and also that he cannot be deterred from his act of civil disobedience.? ?They did spend time lecturing him on national security issues and the fact that "flying is not a right."
"My impression after talking to them is that the likelihood of them breaking into my house or doing something like that is small."
Kanning also told the agents he has not paid Income Taxes since '98.
Background details and contact information for Kanning are included in the original press release below.? Future details will appear at
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=991.0
----
Original press release:
From NHfree.com:
Man Without I.D. Vows to Board Flight or be Jailed
Manchester, NH, May 21, 2005 - Inspired by New Hampshire's "outlaw manicurist," another Granite Stater is stepping forward to peacefully defy license-related laws.? Russell Kanning of Keene has announced he will approach a Transportation Security Administration (TSA) checkpoint at Manchester airport on June 11 and refuse to cooperate with the requirement to show I.D.? "I will either board the plane without I.D. or be arrested," he says.? "In a free country you do not need government permission to travel."? ?The 35-year-old accountant has a ticket to Philidelphia.
Kanning stresses that he will not resist arrest or do anything that might be perceived as physically threatening.? He says this act of nonviolent resistance will follow the model laid down by Gandhi, who used peaceful noncooperation to expel the British from India.? "We will tell them everything we're going to do ahead of time.? We are not going to disrupt the operation of the airport," he says.
Kanning says the parallels with Gandhi's situation go further than a shared belief in nonviolence.? ?"In South Africa (where Gandhi's protests began), Indians had to have special I.D...so it's very similar that way, and he wanted to burn it...He was appealing to that same basic idea that we have rights to not have to have paperwork to be able to move freely."
After the terrorist attacks in 2001, Federal authorities tightened flying restrictions and begain forcing citizens to have both a ticket and identification (usually a driver's license) in order to even enter an airport terminal.? ?Kanning says he refuses to carry a license on principle and disputes the idea that tighter restrictions really make flying safer.
Earlier this month another Gandhi admirer, Mike Fisher of Newmarket, used the Mahatma's techniques to protest business licensing.? After announcing he would perform an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing offices, he carried out his promise, earned a brief trip to jail and received heavy regional media coverage for his viewpoint.
Kanning says Gandhi's and Fisher's examples inspired him to take similar action against the growing "surveillance state."? He believes the Real I.D. amendment passed by the Senate this month will make things even worse.? But he says it's important to stay positive.? "The goal is we want to get to the point where we can travel without having to have paperwork, so this is the beginning of that.? We see light at the end of the tunnel."
Kanning is a member of the FreeStateProject (freestateproject.org), an organization which aims to bring 20,000 liberty lovers to New Hampshire.
Currently the plan is for Kanning to approach the security checkpoint at 12:30 PM.? Journalists and supporters will want to be there by noon.
Summary:
What:? Civil disobedience against ID requirements under federalized airport security.
Where:? Manchester Airport in New Hampshire (exact spot to be determined)
When:? Saturday, June 11 @ noon
Who:? Russell Kanning of Keene, NH, supporters from NHfree.com
Why:? To draw attention to the recent and continuing loss of privacy and freedom due to federalized airport security and National ID.
How:? By approaching a TSA checkpoint with a ticket but no I.D., refusing to show I.D. and refusing to cooperate with the I.D. requirement until arrested or allowed to board the plane.
Contacts:? Russell Kanning:? (603) 357-2049,? Kat Dillon (same number), Mike Fisher (603) 498-7935, NHfree.com
Poof! we're back on 'freedom to travel'
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 07, 2005, 12:51 PM NHFT
Poof! we're back on 'freedom to travel'
Where are my posts?
Please put them back.
My posts were not intended to harm or offend anyone. No harm was done.
I believe free speech on this forum should be protected as much as possible, regardless of the fact that it is a private forum, and I believe the moderators' powers of censorship should only be exercised in the most extreme cases of harm, offense, or fraud.
This censorship is outside the normal operation of the NH Underground as far as I am aware.
Please do not be offended by the following action:
I am fasting and boycotting the NH Underground for 24 hours as a penance for this unnecessary censorship.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 07, 2005, 12:51 PM NHFT
Poof! we're back on 'freedom to travel'
Did we somehow get off track after Mike's sign slogans?
Now I must know what was censored. What's going on here?
Hey Russell, my co-host Johnson came up with a great name for you: (like Outlaw Manicurist)
"Unidentified Flying Objector"
;D
LOL! That's good!
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 07, 2005, 01:31 PM NHFT
My posts were not intended to harm or offend anyone.? No harm was done.
I believe free speech on this forum should be protected as much as possible, regardless of the fact that it is a private forum, and I believe the moderators' powers of censorship should only be exercised in the most extreme cases of harm, offense, or fraud.
This censorship is outside the normal operation of the NH Underground as far as I am aware.
Please do not be offended by the following action:
I am fasting and boycotting the NH Underground for 24 hours as a penance for this unnecessary censorship.
Go ahead and starve to death.
After confering with Kat about deleting her remark, that inspired yours and getting her ok, I deleted all post refering to the NHLA. The subject could be misconstrued and is unfair to the NHLA. After all, they are Porcs too. As an inclusive Porc, willing to work with all the rest of you, I want you to play nice. If there is further objection, other than Mike, you can remove me as moderator.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on June 07, 2005, 02:38 PM NHFT
Now I must know what was censored.? What's going on here?
I think it was just jokes about the NHLA....we didn't miss anything. Don Gorman called us sophomoric in the paper...and I guess we are. ;D ....Ahh to be a sophomore in college again. I think the FBI even asked what school I went to....they are very eager to find out where all this non-cooperation is coming from. :)
Quote from: FTL_Ian on June 07, 2005, 02:38 PM NHFT
Hey Russell, my co-host Johnson came up with a great name for you:? (like Outlaw Manicurist)
"Unidentified Flying Objector"
;D
I really like this one.....we should use it in the next press release. It also fits trying to focus these events on the issue not about the individuals that are participating. :)
Thank you for your letter advising of your proposed actions.
I am compelled to advise you that Manchester Airport does not condone violations of security regulations or procedures, whether they be local or federal. These regulations are in place to protect you as well as all members of the traveling public.
I urge you to reconsider your plans as indicated in your email of May 24.
Kevin A. Dillon, A.A.E.
Airport Director
Manchester Airport
Phone: (603) 624-6539
Fax: (603) 628-6038
kdillon@flymanchester.com
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 07, 2005, 03:12 PM NHFT
Go ahead and starve to death.
After confering with Kat about deleting her remark, that inspired yours and getting her ok, I deleted all post refering to the NHLA.? The subject could be misconstrued and is unfair to the NHLA.? After all, they are Porcs too.? As an inclusive Porc, willing to work with all the rest of you, I want you to play nice.? If there is further objection, other than Mike, you can remove me as moderator.
Thanks Lloyd...Maybe just think a minute! ??? Freedom is about the right to disagree. Hey, just my thought, but Freedom is loosing, because we tend to start back stabbing each other. So we don't always agree? ??? HELLO!!! FREEDOM!!!
Please folks, let's not start fighting amoung ourselves because we have differing views of how to attain Freedom.
Expect only real thing I have to say here is that if any of your think you have all the answers, I say you are full of ....!
Remember the person you disagree with today, may be the very person you need help from tomorrow! :)
My reply to Kevin Dillon:
I understand what the regulations are trying to accomplish. I just don't think they work very efficiently and they infringe on our rights. I have witnessed elderly ladies carry on bags searched and long lines of shoeless travelers. These scenes and the sad stories I have read lead me to believe that we are not living in a free country any longer. I want to change that and have chosen to non-violently resist this sort of treatment.
Russell
I never said I was a poet.....this is why I leave the writing to others....and I just go do stuff.
Quote from: davemincin on June 07, 2005, 04:16 PM NHFTRemember the person you disagree with today, may be the very person you need help from tomorrow! :)
Mincin might be my only hope someday.....thinkin' this is a scary thought (a little Mincin lingo)
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 07, 2005, 01:31 PM NHFT
I am fasting and boycotting the NH Underground for 24 hours as a penance for this unnecessary censorship.
thinkin' that nothing that a moderator can do would make me fast.......but I do have a weakness for food. :D
"Go ahead and starve to death."
UM gee you don't think that might have been a little harsh?
After all Mike is a Porc too.
I meant that he could 'voluntarily' starve to death.
Babiarz mentioned we need to start cranking out TSA jokes for people to use in line at the airport screening areas. :) I like that idea or guys like Dreepa who fly all the time.
I need to think of some good soundbites to use for the radio. I am going to call Hillary Cogen at WKSL tomorrow morning and hopefully she can use some of them. :) Any ideas?
"OMG, I'm glad I wore clean underware!"
" I hope when they see my green toenails, they don't think I'm smuggling C-4!"
" I had beans for breakfast, I'm ready for my cavity search!"
Interesting...but not quite right.....keep trying. 8)
"Presenting IDs to fly doesn't make us any safer... If high school students around the country can get a fake ID, what's to stop terrorists from doing so?" 8)
JM
That is a good one.
Quote from: russellkanning on June 07, 2005, 03:46 PM NHFT
Thank you for your letter advising of your proposed actions.
I am compelled to advise you that Manchester Airport does not condone violations of security regulations or procedures, whether they be local or federal.? These regulations are in place to protect you as well as all members of the traveling public.
I urge you to reconsider your plans as indicated in your email of May 24.
Kevin A. Dillon, A.A.E.
Airport Director
Manchester Airport
Phone: (603) 624-6539
Fax:? ?(603) 628-6038
kdillon@flymanchester.com
Is his name a joke?
I mean kdillon? ?Come on! ?Kat are you really the Airport Director?
What does AAE stand for? Airport Authoritarian Enforcer?
Also one thing I have been thinking of is that I normally don't take off my belt when I go through security but maybe I will take off my belt and have my pants fall to my ankles....
that would be funny.....you could have on a huge pair of boxers that say "suspected terrorist"
sure sign of trouble.....my google ads at the top of my browser Opera.....say "find an inmate"
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 07, 2005, 06:54 PM NHFT
I meant that he could 'voluntarily' starve to death.
Well that makes it better.
Quote from: russellkanning on June 07, 2005, 08:16 PM NHFT
sure sign of trouble.....my google ads at the top of my browser Opera.....say "find an inmate"
and google doesn't lie does it?
Quote from: russellkanning on June 07, 2005, 08:16 PM NHFT
sure sign of trouble.....my google ads at the top of my browser Opera.....say "find an inmate"
Holy Crap.
I have been reading other forums where people think I should just rot in prison for trying to live without ID......can't you just feel the love?
Quote from: russellkanning on June 07, 2005, 08:32 PM NHFT
I have been reading other forums where people think I should just rot in prison for trying to live without ID......can't you just feel the love?
Well sure they are loyal citizens and you are rabble. Who do you think you are trying to live your own life as you see fit? HUH?
You don't support the goverment ,what are you some kind of pinko commie?
and the irony is that 'pinko commies' (USSR) had id checks all over the place.
Russell you will be a hard one to pin a name on for them.
Don't you want us to be safe?
I think we should start a Hall of Liberty and add such names as Patrick Henry, Russell Kanning, Benjamin Franklin, Mahatama Gandhi, Mike Fisher, Thomas Jefferson, etc.
I am so proud to be a member of this fine group of OUTSTANDING individuals.
JP ;D
Quote from: Dreepa on June 07, 2005, 08:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on June 07, 2005, 03:46 PM NHFT
Thank you for your letter advising of your proposed actions.
I am compelled to advise you that Manchester Airport does not condone violations of security regulations or procedures, whether they be local or federal.? These regulations are in place to protect you as well as all members of the traveling public.
I urge you to reconsider your plans as indicated in your email of May 24.
Kevin A. Dillon, A.A.E.
Airport Director
Manchester Airport
Phone: (603) 624-6539
Fax:? ?(603) 628-6038
kdillon@flymanchester.com
Is his name a joke?
I mean kdillon? ?Come on! ?Kat are you really the Airport Director?
What does AAE stand for? Airport Authoritarian Enforcer?
Also one thing I have been thinking of is that I normally don't take off my belt when I go through security but maybe I will take off my belt and have my pants fall to my ankles....
Dillon is the 825th most common name in the U.S.
Smith #1, ?Johnson#2, ?Williams#3, ?Jones#4, ?Brown#5, Davis#6, ? Miller#7, ?Wilson#8, ?Moore#9, ?Taylor#10
Danforth#4907, ?Fisher#113, ?no Kanning, but, Canning#8406, ?Perry#84, ?Swearingen#4618! ?No Mincin, go figure!
For more, go to: http://names.mongabay.com/
Quote from: russellkanning on June 07, 2005, 07:36 PM NHFT
Interesting...but not quite right.....keep trying. 8)
I was about to acuse you of being hard to please. I meant my offerings in reference to Things to say while waiting in line at the airport, not, soundbites for the radio. ;D
Quote from: russellkanning on June 07, 2005, 04:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 07, 2005, 01:31 PM NHFT
I am fasting and boycotting the NH Underground for 24 hours as a penance for this unnecessary censorship.
thinkin' that nothing that a moderator can do would make me fast.......but I do have a weakness for food. :D
I'm too slow to fast. ;D
Wow... the internet never ceases to amaze..
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 07, 2005, 09:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on June 07, 2005, 07:36 PM NHFT
Interesting...but not quite right.....keep trying. 8)
I was about to acuse you of being hard to please.? I meant my offerings in reference to Things to say while waiting in line at the airport, not, soundbites for the radio. ;D
ah yes....we could come up with tons of those.......what would happen if we just had thousands of people making jokes in line?
Well this is sure a bit to get caught up on . . . Anyway, call me nuts but two things come to mind:
Russell if you are thinking of driving to the airport, expect (big) delays on the way. "They" could stop you for this, that, and/or the other thing just to ask for your "papers" and see if they can throw you off schedual . . . etc. (If someone else is driving, you might expect the same.)
And, They may let you fly (away from media and friends) and then hassle you on the other end. (If they do that , I'm sure it will all be on the up-and-up. Nothing like trying to F#@% with you or anything - I'm sure it will be all about "SAFETY".)
P.S. I might have sent this as a PM but, I think it is reasonable to think that Pmail is now being read anyway. "They" might as well read it here on NHfree.com
You might be right.... the FBI was very interested in how I get around without a license. They told me....if you can't fly, just drive.....but I can't legally do that either. :-\
I think they have a big thing now . . . where they ALL work together to "protect" us. But, I'm sure they would never abuse that POWER.
It would be so unlike government to walk all over peaceful folk who are just trying to get along in life.
hey we are really gonna need a video camera on saturday.... anyone bringing one?
If you can't find someone with one, you can, now, buy a disposible video camera at CVS. Good for a half hour. $30.00 + about 13 more to have CVS put it on DVD or something. I believe you can see the video on the small screen in the camera.
FBI guys called me by way of follow up yesterday, details at
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=1113.0
sent the press release to keene sentinel
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 08, 2005, 08:15 AM NHFT
hey we are really gonna need a video camera on saturday....? anyone bringing one?
BTW, who has the "right" to take pictures and of whom and where?
Should I plan on getting arrested - and having my (still) camera stolen - by our new friends? ;D
If I get arrested, I'm not going to cost the tax-payers much in food. ;)
That is an issue ....they don't like people taking photos of the screening area do they.
Just talked to the reporter from Wired. I forget.....is that a NH specific place or is it the techie magazine?
Wired is a hugely popular national magazine! :o
Next big article that appears online, someone should submit to Fark.com
thank you el presidente...that is who I talked to.
Quote from: Jim C. Perry on June 07, 2005, 09:10 PM NHFT
I think we should start a Hall of Liberty and add such names as Patrick Henry, Russell Kanning, Benjamin Franklin, Mahatama Gandhi, Mike Fisher, Thomas Jefferson, etc.
I am so proud to be a member of this fine group of OUTSTANDING individuals.
JP ;D
Already done, JP
http://www.soulawakenings.com/underground/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=Freedom+Inspirations
Quote from: John on June 08, 2005, 10:07 AM NHFT
If I get arrested, I'm not going to cost the tax-payers much in food.? ?;)
Probably more than Mike Fisher.
I was thinking of breaking the government this way.....not by a fast....but by eating
Quote from: russellkanning on June 08, 2005, 05:54 PM NHFT
I was thinking of breaking the government this way.....not by a fast....but by eating
I don't think they have all you can eat buffets in jail. But if they do let me know, I might change my mind about the whole get arrested thing.
I could make them go broke bythe end of July. ;D
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 07, 2005, 03:12 PM NHFT
If there is further objection, other than Mike, you can remove me as moderator.
The last thing I'd want is for this forum to turn into a regulated forum like the FSP's.
I did not want you to be removed as moderator. ?I only want the power of destruction of speech to not be used unless absolutely necessary. ?My posts were harmless - that much was clear. ?We should not need a policy to control moderators. ?Moderators should voluntarily restrain themselves from using their powers unless absolutely necessary.
This was the purpose of my fast and boycott.
I would hardly call the FSP forums highly moderated. Most moderator actions come from users hitting that report to moderator button.
Quote from: president on June 08, 2005, 08:23 PM NHFT
Quote from: JonM on June 08, 2005, 06:28 PM NHFT
I would hardly call the FSP forums highly moderated.
The FSP has banned topics.
And? I didn't say they were unmoderated, but generally moderation only takes place after someone hits the notify moderator button.
You worked very hard to get banned from there; you pushed every button you could find, then installed new buttons just so you could push those too. The FSP forums exist for a singular purpose, which you delight in pointing out isn't being fulfilled as rapidly as we would like. Personally I think action in New Hampshire that can be pointed to will be the best recruitment tool the FSP has.
On the FSP forums, my threads and posts were constantly moved, deleted, locked, split, and combined. It ruined the ability to have a normal conversation. That's why I left the FSP forums for so long, and now I only rarely post to them.
Please do not mar the Freedom to Travel event with a new policy of No Freedom to Speak on the NH Underground.
Mike, Kat made a joke, implying some of our friends might be planning criminal activity, and, you made a joke exacerbating the subject. We don't know who reads this forum, and, as we know, we may have Dave's new friends here now.
Give it a break!
Quote from: Pat K on June 08, 2005, 06:00 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on June 08, 2005, 05:54 PM NHFT
I was thinking of breaking the government this way.....not by a fast....but by eating
I don't think they have all you can eat buffets in jail. But if they do let me know, I might change my mind about the whole get arrested thing.
I could make them go broke bythe end of July. ;D
This reminds me of a story about a real scumbag I know who was doing a very short time for diddling with children - which he had been doing for a very long time.
His wife told me that he might even get out a bit sooner because he was such a good prisoner. He was going to Mass all of the time - - - and he had quit drinking. :o
I though hey I might even go to Mass a bit - just to get out of the cell for a while. As far as the drinking thing; I thought gee I never though this guy would do that. Then I figured that they must not serve alcohol at this particular prison. He must have been bumming out to have gotten one of those "dry" prisons.
Later he did a very long time for a victimless crime. ???
Have a few of questions about freedom to travel event this saturday.I know that I could find the answers by reading all the posts,but maybe you will forgive my laziness.1)I have never been to the Manchester airport.Do we meet somewhere or do we just mill about randomly?2)If we are to meet,then what time?3)Should we bring signs?or is attendance enough?4)Does anyone need a ride?I am coming from Plymouth area.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 09, 2005, 06:23 AM NHFT
Mike, Kat made a joke, implying some of our friends might be planning criminal activity, and, you made a joke exacerbating the subject.
This is not true.
My joke was harmless, and I'm sure nobody at the NHLA would be offended by it. ?They would probably reply and say that they were lobbying for a decrease in violence, which is true. ?Then they'd added a grin and that would have been the end of it.
But instead my posts were deleted - without an explicit authorization from Kat, I might add.
I will not drop this subject until it is resolved.
What do you want to happen Mike? I can't put your posts back. I thought you overreacted completely. Instead of talking to me about it, which WOULD have gotten a response, you go straight to a hunger strike? Am I so hardnosed that I wouldn't have listened to you when you had a problem with something that happened here? Is that really what you think of me? :(
Here's the flyer I put together. Feel free to edit, print, whatever.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: traveler on June 09, 2005, 07:18 AM NHFT
Have a few of questions about freedom to travel event this saturday.I know that I could find the answers by reading all the posts,but maybe you will forgive my laziness.1)I have never been to the Manchester airport.Do we meet somewhere or do we just mill about randomly?2)If we are to meet,then what time?3)Should we bring signs?or is? attendance enough?4)Does anyone need a ride?I am coming from Plymouth area.
The main event will take place next to the main screening area ato the top of the large staircase/escalator at noon.
You could bring whatever signs you think appropriate. Since we are trying to be as non-violent as possible, it would be nice for people to remain positive and friendly. If you can come talk to bystanders about what is happening, that will be very helpful.
I have only read a few pages of this 42 page manifesto and I have indeed enough information. As I read it, ZAF is some set of 'rules' that y'all must follow in order to have a 'peaceful' demonstration. Yet in the next breath I read Kanning stating that he might 'trip' and inadvertently violating the code. Interesting.
LeRuineur6 aka Slave, for a 'peaceful' individual you are very much interested in bullying and force. 'What if they get in your way physically?' 'I will not give up until I am forced.' What is all of that about? You are a bully looking for a fight, not really following the ZAF code are you... dangling precariously on the edge, Eh? Oh and the comment, "Absolutely refuse to give up your metal Bill of Rights'.. well, for the screeners to be able to find the BoR they would have to screen him, and that would have Mr. Kanning going along with the screening process.. a no no. And last I read the BoR, even a metal BoR is not on the prohibited item list. As an object alone it poses no threat, being that it is a flimsy, rounded piece of aluminum. The only threat from the Bill of Rights, even in a metal form, is to those of us who have to listen to you spout a warped interpretation of what it stands for and represents.
Russell, I promise you that there will be no force from the screeners. You are doing nothing than making their work day a little more interesting. You will not be getting any of the fanfare that you are looking for. Yes, there will be numerous news stations and papers covering your lunacy, but you will be coming off as nothing more than laughable. You are not breaking any laws by not having/showing an ID. You will be subjected to additional screening. That's it. If you refuse 'peacefully', the only consequences you will be facing is being escorted out of the screening and sterile area by the deputies. Very anti-climatic. If you decide to run or force your way in, then you are going against your ZAF code of conduct. And then you come off as a hypocrite. All of this is pretty comical to me and to that end I will be there on Saturday to see you fall on your face. A free show. :)
In all the 5 pages I read (and that was more than enough to figure out who you were are a group and individuals) I found the only thing that you are really fighting against is paranoia. All of this talk to 'secret laws' and such... It frightens me that there are so many of you? lunatics living in my state. You try very hard to come off as intelligent free thinkers, but you are not pulling it off convincingly. Gandhi has got to be rolling atthe thought that y'all have made him your guide. You are all small minded followers who have nothing better to do with your time. Find something else to do with you time... read a novel, volunteer at an AIDS hospice, anything. You have all kinds of problems with the US and its laws and such, yet you continue to live here and reap the wealth. Civil liberites and rights that you wouldn't have anywhere else... and you complain about them. Open you eyes, experience something else and see what it is really like out there... then jugde. But that would mean you stepping out of this encapsulated box you live in.
In closing, Mr. Kanning stated, 'I want to go to Philadelphia and I don't want the STATE to get in my way'. Well, my advice to you is to get in your car with your expired license and drive.
Cheers.
PS- Parking at the airport is $2 an hour... all of that $$ goes to state and government run scholarships. Better think about getting buses, eh?
I think most americans do not know about the rules that allow you to get on a plane without ID, but with an additional search. They will learn something through this process. If the screeners treat me decently and do not do any really intrusive searching, then maybe we have paved a way for other travelers to enjoy flying again. :)
ZAP, ZAF... what does it really matter? it is still a rule... aren't y'all against those? Either way, thank you for the correction and definition.
Having read that I truly believe that LeRuineur is not a libertarian, overly agressive person that he is. It's all about the 'force', intended or inadverant... just like Darth Vadar.
I am not really into using complicated phraseology like ZAP. I just don't have any intention of hurting any of the TSA workers and I am confident that they will not be harming me either. I don't think anyone on this thread has predicted that the TSA would tackle me or beat me. :)
I don't see how Mike Fisher has ever exhibited threatening behaviour and his track record shows he is decent civil individual.
Some guys take the ZAP so seriously.....that is why I joke about tripping and violating the principle.
Quote from: ZAF??? on June 09, 2005, 09:55 AM NHFT
ZAP, ZAF... what does it really matter? it is still a rule... aren't y'all against those? Either way, thank you for the correction and definition.
Having read that I truly believe that LeRuineur is not a libertarian, overly agressive person that he is. It's all about the 'force', intended or inadverant... just like Darth Vadar.
You obviously don't know what a libertarian is, or you wouldn't have said this. To say that Mike is an overly aggressive person is just ludicrous. You need to do more research and thinking before you post.
Some people may not agree with Russell, everyone has their own vision of what liberty is and how to get there.
QuoteYou have all kinds of problems with the US and its laws and such, yet you continue to live here and reap the wealth. Civil liberites and rights that you wouldn't have anywhere else... and you complain about them. Open you eyes, experience something else and see what it is really like out there... then jugde.
I don't disagree. The US is a great place to live. The question is what direction are we moving. In the ast 20 years look at all the laws that have sprung up. For what? What do they acomplish? Was the US such a terrible place 50, 100 200 years ago?
I can even think that the US is the best country in the world and still have issues with it.
BTW ....ZAF...how did you hear about these events? I am interested to know how people find us. :)
ZAF??? -
You seem to think this is all we are about -- protests and civil disobedience. Among supporting my friends here who are willing to take a public stand (using their REAL NAME, btw), I also volunteer for charitable organizations, read novels, go to the beach, attend parties, go to clubs and work.
Interestingly enough, most everyone here does the same kind of stuff. I have seen Mike and Russell promoting educational scholarships and helping with road-side clean-ups. We've discussed novels we've read, we go to parties, attend clubs, and work.
Thanks for reminding me just how hard my friends here work for freedom while balancing their day-to-day lives. I am proud to stand by them, through thick and thin. "My life, my fortune and my sacred honour."
JP
As I said, I only read 5 or 6 pages before posting... in each of Mr. Fisher's posts he is aggressive. As a person he may not act aggressively, but it isn't something that will not crop up eventually. Reread his posts in the first bits of the forum and you might well see what I see. All of his 'what-ifs' are of a forceful nature. A truly 'peaceful' man would not have these thoughts consistantly. The government, nor the world, is out to get any one of us.. yet that is what he puts out as believing. Mr. Fisher's words could very well be up for interpretation, but that is how I am seeing it. He is someone who will eventually, maybe not Saturday, flip.
I came into this with an open mind. I have a few friends who work for the airport and was curious of the days agenda. As far as research is concerned, I think that y'all really need to to do little more of it. You aren't fighting the right fight. Who cares if you need or do not need an ID to board a plane? In the end, what exactly are you fighting? No one is saying that you cannot board the plane without ID, they are saying that you need to be screened... something that happened well before 9/11. The only difference is now you are getting screened by a federal employee. And to that end, why would you want to take a plane? It is clearly stated that you are paying a government security fee when you purchase the ticket. Whether you have complied or not at the checkpoint, by purchasing the ticket you are in a way agreeing with the security measures by giving them that fee. Hell, just standing in the line at the security checkpoint is implied consent. There is no getting around that. (And prior to 9/11 you were still paying that fee, it just wasn't gov't based).
'In the ast 20 years look at all the laws that have sprung up. For what? What do they acomplish? Was the US such a terrible place 50, 100 200 years ago?' No one is saying that the US has gotten worse as far as living standards go... in fact they have, for the most part, gotten better. But the question you are asking is easily answered like this... the world was a different place back then. There are so many 'things' out there that are plaguing us in this day; guns, bombs, terrorists. This is a short list. These things aren't going away and are becoming more prevalent in this society. We need to protect ourselves and others from what could happen... this is done with the laws that the government has in place. Do I believe in all of them? No, of course not, but I abide by them as a means to an end. Do I like going through security? I am a woman and my process is more invasive that a mans and I am embarrassed to have to go through it. But, I will if it means that the screener (who is just as uncomfortable as I) will find an IED or gun on the next woman that comes through. I know that I am safe, but how can I trust the next person in line? In this day and age and all the news stores that are out there about things that are found and what have you I feel safer going through a bit of inconvenience.
I found you by looking you up on the web. Easy enough to do with a search engine. As far as my name is concerned... I do not wish to have my name known by a group such as your own. Thou you seem mostly harmless, it is easy enough to look someone's address online and I am not really interested in being haressed by an affiliate group.
You never can tell with bees. ;)