New Hampshire Underground

Endless Debate and Whining => Endless Debate and Whining => Topic started by: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2014, 01:39 AM NHFT

Title: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2014, 01:39 AM NHFT
So apparently Keene Cop Block dude CENTURION is a fraud? Claiming to be a former U.S. Navy, Lt. Cmd, SEAL. Damn guys, I could have seen that just from his posture and build. The lack of discernment and judgement is troubling.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on December 29, 2014, 11:25 AM NHFT
Is there a reference?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: WithoutAPaddle on December 29, 2014, 12:39 PM NHFT
I don't have a dog in this, but I just googled Keene Cop Block Centurian and found this page, which may be useful... or not, because I have no means to vet it.

http://stopfreekeene.com/

Of course, New Hampshire is the state where Edgar Berube attained infamy, and I thought it was funny a few years ago when a guy applying for a football coaching job at Notre Dame burnished his lackluster resume by falsely claiming he had played football for the UNH Wildcats.  I mean I could see someone who was applying for a coaching position at UNH claiming he had played football for Notre Dame, but vice versa?  Back when I went to UNH, they used to recruit their football players out of gym class.

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2014, 04:40 PM NHFT
Is there a reference?


https://www.facebook.com/StolenValor/posts/419483681474568
Quote
NAVY TIMES (June 05, 2006)
News Briefs
Phony baloney recruiter
He posed as a Navy recruiter, wearing the uniform and medals and taking part
in a Veterans Day ceremony.
Now, Matthew Phillips of Springfield, Vt., has been sentenced to six months
probation for wearing the uniform without authorization.
Phillips, 31, pleaded guilty in February, acknowledging that in December
2004, he entered the U.S. Naval Recruiting Station in Keene, N.H., wearing a
Navy lieutenant's uniform that had a SEAL badge.
Last year, Phillips wore the same uniform, accompanied by Navy recruiters to
a high school in Bellows Falls, Vt. He also acknowledged he wore the uniform
on Veterans Day in 2004, in Claremont, N.H., where he played a major role in
a public ceremony and was photographed

http://springfieldvt.blogspot.com/2007_12_01_archive.html
Have to pay to view the whole article...
Quote
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 21, 2007

Charges reduced for imposter in plea deal
A 32-year-old Londonderry man who had been charged with posing as a federal safety inspector at a Springfield road construction site pleaded guilty to reduced charges of disorderly conduct for obstructing traffic.
Matthew Phillips, who works at the Springfield Recycling Center, had been charged with two counts of impersonating a public officer, a misdemeanor, in September and July.

http://www.wcax.com/story/7528740/two-time-imposter-pleads-guilty-again
Quote
Two Time Imposter Pleads Guilty Again

White River Junction, Vermont - December 21, 2007

A man already convicted for pretending to be a decorated Navy Seal, has once again pleaded guilty to being someone he's not.

32-year-old Matthew Phillips, of Londonderry, admitted he identified himself as an OSHA inspector at construction sites in Springfield and Chester this fall. He pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct and received a deferred sentence.

Last year Phillips was placed on federal probation after he wore a uniform and medals to a Bellows Falls High School recruitment drive in Vermont, and to Veterans Day ceremonies in Claremont, New Hampshire.

So he appears to be on Fed probation... is he an informant? They have him by the short hairs.

From Stop Free Keene post...
http://stopfreekeene.com/2014/12/26/something-stinks-in-libertopia-why-does-ian-bernard-associate-with-a-known-fraud/
Although I can't find the post on Keene Cop Block Facebook page. Was it taken down?
Here is the Don Shipley
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Don-Shipley/221960734523677

Image post on Stop Free Keene
(https://stopfreekeene.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/jpsbadday.png)

Quote
Every organization, to be taken seriously, needs to carefully screen those they highlight as spokesmen for their cause. And just this morning, as I have again and again and again, I’ve verified CENTURION as a fake Navy SEAL who continues to skip on money owed and threatens those who confront him.

Your organizations reputation is only tarnished by allowing his narcissistic and sociopathic personality membership in it and his dislike of Police only stems from the fact that he’s had so many run-ins with them…

I strongly recommend you push him off the nearest cliff.

Don Shipley BUD/S 131, SEAL Team ONE, SEAL Team TWO.

Background on Centurion aka Mathew Phillips aka John Philpiano aka JP approx age 39 claims: ex Navy SEAL, wounded, decorated, rank: Lt Commander




Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2014, 04:57 PM NHFT
https://www.facebook.com/centurion.manthatsfree.3?ref=eyJzaWQiOiIwLjUzMzcyMzE3NDEyODY4MTQiLCJxcyI6IkpUVkNKVEl5U2k1d0xpVXlNRVp5WldWdFlXNGxNaklsTlVRIiwiZ3YiOiI3NDY2YzIwYWM4OWY0N2Q2MTg1ZjNhNjUxNDYxYzFiMWJhYzlhODJkIn0
(http://arafwchnawr.com/images/Facebook.jpg)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2014, 05:02 PM NHFT
Yeah this is the way a former SEAL would play dress up   ;D ;D ;D

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10322727_1505940209630041_7309028954808326601_n.jpg?oh=ff06f14bb0b3a88321ea0aa2001a956b&oe=553FAFBB&__gda__=1430545361_7e321dc9e61c80128f90618736b4c14d)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Pat K on December 29, 2014, 09:53 PM NHFT
Knew he was wacky, took a dislike to him when he bad mouthed Dale, didn't think he was this wacky.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 29, 2014, 10:53 PM NHFT
Knew he was wacky, took a dislike to him when he bad mouthed Dale, didn't think he was this wacky.

Come on Pat admit you were saluting and saying "By your leave sir." to him.

 ;D ;D ;D

Yeah everyone knows that they just give away Lt. Cmd rank and SEAL Tridents to any flat brim wearing guy that comes along.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Pat K on December 30, 2014, 02:02 AM NHFT
Was hard to get me to do that, when I was enlisted.
Ask me about the Japanese Admiral some time.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 30, 2014, 12:11 PM NHFT
Was hard to get me to do that, when I was enlisted.
Ask me about the Japanese Admiral some time.

Reminds me of the Cheech and Chong Japanese Kamikaze bit.

"And you will dive down on the American ships and blow them up! Any questions? Yes, you in the glasses."

"Honorable Sir, are you out of your fucking mind!"
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 30, 2014, 12:22 PM NHFT
Joking aside.

The fact that the movement won't police their own is a big problem.

People allow others to walk into potentially dangerous situations.

We have withdrawn our participation in Keene activism because of the self promotion at the expense of the truth. There have been a number of questionable characters promoted to the wider audience as activists of note, only later to find out that people knew of them to be a problem and said nothing.

Just recently I interacted with a family on the Free State Project forum. They loved the Tour de Shire, Exploring the Free State, New Hampshire, Grafton Apple Festival 2012 video (http://youtu.be/EfdrTaRpYog?list=UUg7lyc1UfeeCqX8KckW0bRw) They asked me about "family friendly" places to consider to move to. The bitch of it is that I feel reluctant to suggest Keene, which kind of sucks for us.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 30, 2014, 03:55 PM NHFT
Knew he was wacky, took a dislike to him when he bad mouthed Dale, didn't think he was this wacky.
isn't this how we decide ..... if they don't laugh at PatKs jokes or if they badmouth Dale ..... they are on our bad list. :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 30, 2014, 03:57 PM NHFT
just looked him up on fedbook .... I guess I am not "friends" with him and don't recognize him.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on December 30, 2014, 10:36 PM NHFT

   I have a confession to make.  I'm not sure if I was at Woodstock, I might have been home inventing the internet.   ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on December 31, 2014, 02:34 AM NHFT

   I have a confession to make.  I'm not sure if I was at Woodstock, I might have been home inventing the internet.   ;D

Now, now Bob let's calm down and take your medicine. Or maybe you have...  ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 31, 2014, 11:21 AM NHFT
I probably have only met 10 people who imagined that they were at woodstock.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2014, 10:10 PM NHFT
JP says they've confused him with another Matthew Phillips, purposefully, and that they are working with his soon-to-be-ex wife to libel him.

I don't believe everything JP says without proof, but I certainly don't believe a bunch of haters like the anonymous bloggers at Stop Free Keene.

JP is a great Cop Blocker, though he may not be a libertarian, he's been stellar at de-escalating conflict in the streets of Keene, and he's always been honest in his dealings with me.

I didn't like what happened between him and Dale, but he did apologize after getting feedback from the community.  He previously had threatened to sue the KAC, but now he's a member.  He's learning and improving over time - people can change, can't they?

I'd caution anyone from taking SFK's blog's word on anything.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on December 31, 2014, 10:26 PM NHFT
We have withdrawn our participation in Keene activism because of the self promotion at the expense of the truth. There have been a number of questionable characters promoted to the wider audience as activists of note, only later to find out that people knew of them to be a problem and said nothing.

Just recently I interacted with a family on the Free State Project forum. They loved the Tour de Shire, Exploring the Free State, New Hampshire, Grafton Apple Festival 2012 video (http://youtu.be/EfdrTaRpYog?list=UUg7lyc1UfeeCqX8KckW0bRw) They asked me about "family friendly" places to consider to move to. The bitch of it is that I feel reluctant to suggest Keene, which kind of sucks for us.

Huh, well, that's a shame.  JP has kids and the new family in town, Steven and Amber Daves also have kids and Steven has been out Cop Blocking with JP on a number of occasions.  Keene is a fine place for activists with families.  Free State Project early mover Jessica Bryant also has kids and she's moving in with JP.  Maybe he also has her fooled, but JP has come a long way of earning the respect of many, despite being accused of being a fed early on (which is a big problem in this movement for the new guy).

Curious, who are the questionable characters promoted as activists of note later found to have been known in advance to be a problem? 

Thanks in advance for the feedback.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on December 31, 2014, 11:17 PM NHFT

Curious, who are the questionable characters promoted as activists of note later found to have been known in advance to be a problem? 


Exhibit 1 is Cantwell, and Exhibit 2 is your post tonight about Molyneaux claiming that selling loosies was not a victimless crime.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 01, 2015, 04:32 PM NHFT
What does Molyneux have to do with Keene?

Cantwell is an activist of note in Keene.  You can agree or disagree with his approach, but by no means is everyone in Keene of a hive mind in support of him. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 01, 2015, 05:24 PM NHFT
JP says they've confused him with another Matthew Phillips, purposefully, and that they are working with his soon-to-be-ex wife to libel him.

I don't believe everything JP says without proof, but I certainly don't believe a bunch of haters like the anonymous bloggers at Stop Free Keene.

JP is a great Cop Blocker, though he may not be a libertarian, he's been stellar at de-escalating conflict in the streets of Keene, and he's always been honest in his dealings with me.

I didn't like what happened between him and Dale, but he did apologize after getting feedback from the community.  He previously had threatened to sue the KAC, but now he's a member.  He's learning and improving over time - people can change, can't they?

I'd caution anyone from taking SFK's blog's word on anything.

Straight up response. Thanks.

If that isn't him then I'm wrong. Having multiple identities, often means history.

However, lots of alarms triggered makes it easy to believe. Someone who isn't a libertarian, has multiple conflicts early on... I'm not as trusting, certainly not going to run to join the same club. Maya Angelou had a quote about people showing who they are initially, and that you should listen. You can have all the folks who don't have the same values, train them, let them into your home. But the New York assholes and Boston assholes and a random mix of underage and inexperienced people antagonizing each other is not too likely to have a good outcome.

As for the self proclaimed asshole Cantwell and his ilk. Of course no one can prevent them from coming to town. However, it's poor judgement to continue to support and promote him and his message. When he turned towards Garrett Ean and said "People like you won't be around." (or words to that effect) That's a deal breaker.

Agitators have their place, but encouraging ambushing cops is outside of what is prudent. That's why the JTTF is trying to get up ya'lls ass. I saw a post Cantwell posted blaming Talley for ratting him out and thus Rich Pauls arrest. Divisive people aren't worth
any number of YouTube hits.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 01, 2015, 07:32 PM NHFT
I couldn't disagree with Cantwell more on the topic of violence, but it's important to not ignore the viewpoint, if for no other reason than to use it as a foil to promote peace.  Cantwell's view is fairly common within the movement - I used to hold it until I was positively influenced by people like Russell.  I want to model peace to Cantwell, and by proxy, his followers.  Maybe I'll never be successful converting him, but his fans listening to FTL (he now hosts with us on Wednesdays) cannot be a bad thing.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 01, 2015, 07:45 PM NHFT
The Peace Roundtable at Keenevention 2013, which featured Cantwell, was the most-well-attended of all the Keenevention curriculum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC1wOhWYvbw
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 01, 2015, 09:39 PM NHFT
So the number of views or any metric of audience size trumps everything else. Thanks for acknowledging it.
Maybe Chris could hit you across the back with a chair when the referee isn't looking, that should whip up the crowd.  ;D

Several good people have been traded for the one blowhard.  I've had multiple people that considered you their friend express these things to me. Hubris is thinking you have the right path when people you trust are telling you otherwise.

I'm not interested in attacking the activism that some have chosen. I just wish they wouldn't spew so much of a cloud of family repellent.



Oh I keep forgetting, Happy New Year.  ;D :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 01, 2015, 10:21 PM NHFT
Tom, I don't make money at Keenevention - the size of the audience is small in general and I release everything we do on-stage at the event free online.  I shared that with you as an example that people are VERY interested in the discussion about violence or peace.  We had more questions at that panel than any other and went well into overtime.

My friends should talk to me personally, if they are truly my friends, rather than behind my back.  Also, if someone wants to cut off my friendship because I am kind to people who are imperfect, then that's too bad. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 01, 2015, 10:28 PM NHFT
I didn't have Chris on that panel because I knew it would be popular - I didn't know that.  I had him on so we could have the conversation.  You and I, Tom, may know that peace is the way, but many within the movement are in favor of violence or are on the fence.  I put two advocates of peace on that panel to go up against Cantwell.  Yes, it gave him exposure, but his ideas are not foreign to many in the movement and it gave Derrick and I a chance to respond to the viewpoint of violence.  That was the point.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 01, 2015, 10:53 PM NHFT
Criticism is usually met with claims of "hand wringing" etc. People then will just stop trying. Complaining means someone still cares, if they just get fed up and stop participating that is a loss.

Tales of Cantwell's behavior toward mutual friends is one thing, thinking it doesn't matter is another. Back to the title of this thread.

My goal isn't to whip you, you do a whole lot and have a wide reaching voice. That's why I didn't name specific individuals, it's flawed logic that is at the heart of the problem.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 02, 2015, 11:56 AM NHFT
Fair enough.  I prefer to be forgiving towards people's flaws.  I was that way with AnarchoJesse.  I'll say this about JP - I don't believe what he says  without proof.  He tells some big stories, but he's never been accused of ripping people off, and has been a big help in many ways including cleaning and caring for the KAC and being a major proponent of Cop Block. 

Cantwell is a rude character, but then again, he doesn't pretend to be anything but a crass asshole.  There's lots of good things about him (like, he's a killer activist and was a big help and did an amazing job at the bitcoin outreach booth at the county fair this year), but I understand why some wouldn't bother to look for them.  Regarding his misbehavior, like AnarchoJesse, he's gotten feedback from the community about it, for what it's worth.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on January 02, 2015, 04:19 PM NHFT
"There is no such thing as bad publicity" is true, if you are only seeking recognition and fame -- or infamy, if that is as close as you can get. It's great for trolls, or for getting publicity, page clicks or radio listeners (that's not aimed at you, Ian... it's also true for your political and philosophical opposites).

There definitely is such a thing as bad publicity if you're trying to move the world in a positive direction.

The resistance to criticism mentioned by George Donnelly has had the effect of producing an echo chamber, a mutual admiration society, where the more negative feedback is generated, the more certain people are that they're on the right track. There's a difference between pissing off all the right people, and pissing off everyone except those who love to piss off everyone.

That difference is the "lack of discernment" in the thread title.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 03, 2015, 02:40 PM NHFT
Well, that's just not the case here, Kevin.  Judging by the feedback the guys at 101 Deals thrift store have gotten from the public, there's plenty of people who are pleased that we are here.  Plus, there's all the people that have taken the time to stop by the KAC (usually during the nicer weather months) and chat us up and say nice things.

I'm not sure where George Donnelly got brought in here, but that guy is terrible about getting along with others.  I wouldn't take his advice on interpersonal relationships. 

There's no mutual admiration society in Keene.  No one here is afraid to give feedback about stuff they would have done differently or not-at-all.

It's a community of people, who aren't perfect, but most of us get along.  Part of that community is being forgiving towards people's past mistakes.  Chris Cantwell is not a monster - he's a fallible human being.  JP is not a bad guy or a fed, though he may have told some embellished stories in the past.  They are my friends and they overall do good work for liberty.  I like to look on the positive side of people.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 05, 2015, 01:09 AM NHFT


SEAL Check Please,  SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network (http://socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1058399367)

SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

Quote
I haven't been on here in a while, but recently had some interactions with a guy from Keene, N.H. working with a group called Cop Block claiming he graduated from the Naval Academy, is a retired LT CMDR, and a former SEAL and member of SEAL Team 8.

He is going by both Johnathan Philpiano and Johnathan Phillips. He also uses the pseudonym Centurian ManThatIsFree. You can find his Facebook pages and claims and pictures of his sweet uniform there. Also the copblock.org site is littered with is claims.

When I met him he was in blue digis with some ate up unsat name tapes and patches all over him.

I have links to all kinds of images and videos of him.

He looks like a fool to me, and he's using his purported service to gain legitimacy among anarchists and volunteerists in several different fringe activist organizations.

I'm almost 100% on this, but Ill eat crow if I'm wrong.

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on January 06, 2015, 12:20 AM NHFT
So the number of views or any metric of audience size trumps everything else. Thanks for acknowledging it.
Maybe Chris could hit you across the back with a chair when the referee isn't looking, that should whip up the crowd.  ;D

That guy who shot a bullet through his own scrotum got a ton of hits. I bet Free Keene could top that if they'd just step up their game.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 06, 2015, 12:26 AM NHFT
 ;D

Where is a good scrotum shooter when you need one.  ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 06, 2015, 12:26 AM NHFT
OK. I did some more research, because I was almost convinced that I was wrongly accusing someone. Made me feel foolish and that perhaps I was causing trouble. But, a niggling sense kept bothering me.

See I've know some pathological liars. They will keep denying long past the point most people will be embarrassed and admit they've been caught. In fact they often go on the offensive.

A guy I knew in High School decided to join the Marines the same time me and some other guys were going in. He couldn't wait to graduate, like the rest of us, and dropped out and went in right away. Well like 2 weeks later, we heard that James was back in town. He seemed to be avoiding us. And when we finally saw him he had this cock and bull story about being so advanced that they sent him home to await special advanced combat training. The thing was he used all the wrong terminology and it was such an obvious lie. In fact his parents were telling people they were trying to hide him from us because we would "beat him up." If anything we pitied him... especially when the recruiter found out the problem was that every time the Drill Instructors yelled at him he threw up. The ironic thing was he later became the Chief of Police for a neighboring small town.

Socially it is very awkward to deal with a pathological liar. Most people don't want to deal with it and I've seen it allowed to continue until bad outcomes happened. Afterwards many will tell what they knew but were reluctant to say.

Fraud is a violation of the NAP isn't it? The one principle that is supposed to be held high within the libertarian world. How would our side react if we caught a public official making fraudulent claims? I think ourside should hold ourselves to a higher standard than we hold our opposition.

Anyway... the post on the Special Operations Community Network forum above was from a guy in Columbus Ohio. I was wondering how he would know this guy from Keene, NH. Well I found a Cop Block Ohio video from one month before (http://youtu.be/6u7WqoZWe2A) that featured JP or whatever name he wants to go by in Columbus Ohio. I wanted to determine some connection that would have allowed this guy to have met JP.

Here is a side by side to compare the fake SEAL on the left to JP on the right.
(http://arafwchnawr.com/images/comparison.jpg)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on January 06, 2015, 08:10 AM NHFT
;D

Where is a good scrotum shooter when you need one.  ;D


That took balls to say.  Were you "half in the bag" ? ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on January 06, 2015, 01:26 PM NHFT
"But he's our pathological liar!"

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on January 06, 2015, 03:54 PM NHFT
Why can't you choose forgiveness, Tom? (Except with meter maids)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 06, 2015, 04:40 PM NHFT
 ;D 8)

If you invite a skunk to your party you shouldn't be pissed that he stinks the place up.

Becky was supposed to post her thoughts on the subject but alas I will paraphrase for her.
Quote
The idea that,"My enemy's enemy is my friend" has lead to some of the worst shit in history.

Hypocrisy is one sin I have a real hard time with.

What can be done about it. Well, I guess we are left to speaking out against it. I've decided to do it in the least damaging way, here among the hardcore small group left. Others that have social capital can help protect others and the movement at large
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: John on January 07, 2015, 08:52 AM NHFT
;D 8)

Becky was supposed to post her thoughts on the subject but alas I will paraphrase for her.
Quote
The idea that,"My enemy's enemy is my friend" has lead to some of the worst shit in history.


Yup.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 07, 2015, 11:51 AM NHFT
No one ever denied that was JP in the picture. How does you having a picture of him at some event mean he committed fraud?  Just because some guy on the internet posts his picture and makes claims doesn't make that true.  Is that the outfit of a SEAL or something?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on January 07, 2015, 04:56 PM NHFT
No one ever denied that was JP in the picture. How does you having a picture of him at some event mean he committed fraud?  Just because some guy on the internet posts his picture and makes claims doesn't make that true.  Is that the outfit of a SEAL or something?

And now you've dived head-long into Legaland-speak.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 08, 2015, 10:57 AM NHFT
Can you please explain that comment?  I was not using legalese. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 08, 2015, 01:51 PM NHFT
Lieutenant Commander is the insignia on his collar. Navy SEAL is the Trident on his chest, lots of ribbons which represent medals awarded...

He claimed it was some other guy according to you. I posted his picture side by side to the fraudulent SEAL photo so people could determine if it is the same guy. I posted the video to show that he was in Columbus Ohio where the person who made the claim lives.
In the post I linked to the guy saying he claimed to be all that and an Annapolis graduate.  ;D ;D ;D

So lie upon lie and continued to lie about it.

I leave it to others to determine if you are purposely being thick or perhaps worse.

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 08, 2015, 02:46 PM NHFT
When cornered the pathological liar can sometimes turn and go on the offensive.
So far I am aware of three people that JP has threatened to sue.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on January 08, 2015, 10:24 PM NHFT
This is only vaguely related, but at the same time it's essential to this discussion: who do we trust, and when do we apply discernment and insist on facts?

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2012/06/29/why-we-oppose-conspiracy-theories/
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 09, 2015, 08:07 AM NHFT
Good article and on the mark.

Agent provocateur or fool, doesn't matter... can have the same result.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 09, 2015, 02:42 PM NHFT
Lieutenant Commander is the insignia on his collar. Navy SEAL is the Trident on his chest, lots of ribbons which represent medals awarded...

He claimed it was some other guy according to you. I posted his picture side by side to the fraudulent SEAL photo so people could determine if it is the same guy. I posted the video to show that he was in Columbus Ohio where the person who made the claim lives.
In the post I linked to the guy saying he claimed to be all that and an Annapolis graduate.  ;D ;D ;D

So lie upon lie and continued to lie about it.

I leave it to others to determine if you are purposely being thick or perhaps worse.

To clarify - I never said the pictured person wasn't JP.  I said that he claimed they'd confused him with another Matthew Phillips.  His comments were in relation to the claims being made, not the pic they showed.

Interesting info about the pins.  Thanks. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 09, 2015, 03:03 PM NHFT
I am confronting him about this on the Keeniacs group on FB.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 09, 2015, 11:00 PM NHFT
I was told this:

"There is no list . This list is fake. They get Seals names from articles and interviews . Under the homeland security act any name involved in secretive operations is Director clearance only"

Boiling down a long conversation, his claim appears to be that he graduated from BUDs (SEAL training) but never served as a SEAL.  The claim is he was involved in secret stuff that resulted in his records being sealed and him getting a check from the feds as a result.

At this point, that's good enough for me, because I don't really care what he did in the past.  Today he's a good guy who is a good activist, but I do take his claims with a grain or two of salt.  I'm done with the digging into his past, because ultimately it doesn't really matter today.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 09, 2015, 11:03 PM NHFT
Anyone who would like to judge JP should just go ahead and meet him in real life.  He is currently living across the street from the KAC. 

I don't know what the truth about him is, but I sure don't believe SFK's claims, and I have no way of verifying his story.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on January 09, 2015, 11:17 PM NHFT
I was told this:

"There is no list . This list is fake. They get Seals names from articles and interviews . Under the homeland security act any name involved in secretive operations is Director clearance only"

Boiling down a long conversation, his claim appears to be that he graduated from BUDs (SEAL training) but never served as a SEAL.  The claim is he was involved in secret stuff that resulted in his records being sealed and him getting a check from the feds as a result.

Short version: "If I told you, I'd have to kill you."

Or as the old saying goes: "If I know the answer but it's classified, I'll say 'I don't know.' If I don't know the answer, I'll say, 'It's classified.'"

JP might very well be a good guy doing good things and righteous activism, today. But not very long ago, he was a liar fraudulently parading himself about as something he wasn't. By your own version, he claims to have graduated BUDS but never earned the SEAL trident. And yet he has been caught in public wearing SEAL insignia.

You might be a better person than me for being so quick to forgive. I forgive easily, but I don't always forget.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 10, 2015, 10:14 PM NHFT
It's harder to get into the Naval Academy than Harvard. Jp can barely spell.

Lt Cmdr is an officer that can be responsible for 100 or more lives. A lot of hurdles to overcome and scrutiny to get to that position of responsibility.

Jp's answers are exactly the BS that the people that out these imposters say they use. Of course the secret mission you went on is secret but not the fact that you are a Naval Academy Graduate or an Officer. 

The issue isn't Jp or Lumpy or Jesse or Cantwell it's the fact that you promote them as activists of note. The less savvy follow your lead and let these idiots into their lives.

The lack of judgment is appalling.

Activism 101 says if they come into the group promoting violence that you have to assume they are a plant. Even if they aren't they will "draw fire", discredit, and divide the group. as has already been proven. You think the feds stopped trying to crawl up ya'll asses after Rich Paul failed. I have to say that they are completely within their mission statement when people promote killing cops.

I didn't call you out on this thread you did that yourself.

You obfuscated, spun and wiggled your way around. Even knowing that this clown was a liar you invited my wife and child into the potential danger. I have been reminded that the people you promote are, often, not to be trusted.

You have come to enjoy thinking you are so clever that people can't catch on to your techniques. How many have left in frustration... real activists of note.

StopFreeKeene are repugnant, but covering up is the sin here. Copblock needs to clean house as well, this shit is likely to blow back on many.

If not this cast of characters, some future fool will roll into town and everyone even casually connected can be at jeopardy to be dragged into a grand jury and compelled to testify. A shit storm that will cause incredible damage.



Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on January 11, 2015, 11:50 AM NHFT
As an aspiring monk I avoid judging, reviling, going about being curious, and examing the business of others.  For the last couple weeks this thread has been a terrible challenge full of temptations.  Now  I'm wading in, perhaps foolishly, and will try to serve God, commenting with love, and avoiding temptations.

Having multiple identities, often means history.

Tom, ...

Is your name really "Tom Sawyer"?!  I've always assumed it was not. :O)

Tom, I don't believe we've met, but I've come to respect you from reading your posts here, and looking forward to meeting you some day.

Earlier in this thread I almost posted to get you to define "the Keene movement".  For a few weeks in the summer of 2013, the KAC was my base of operations for a performance art series.  At the time, many of the freedom activists in Keene had "discerned" that the KAC was not somewhere they wanted to hang out. For some, a pubic hair smoking incident was especially beyond the pale.  Others, had a whole catalogues of reasons for shunning the place. 

I was there when JP made his first visit.  He showed up in uniform with another fellow also in uniform.  Word quickly got out that uniforms were at the KAC, and in minutes there were scores of people showing up.  Many times the number that had ever visited since I had been there.  Now I generally discern that anyone in uniform is someone to be wary of, and didn't approach anywhere near either of them.  So I had to wonder, am I part of the Keene movement?  What about the Keene activists who generally refused to have anything to do with the KAC, but came running out that night?  And how about the Keene activists who despise anything to do with FreeKeene or the Shire Free Church?

But it became apparent to me that you weren't really criticizing "the Keene movement."

My goal isn't to whip you, you do a whole lot and have a wide reaching voice. That's why I didn't name specific individuals, it's flawed logic that is at the heart of the problem.

The issue isn't Jp or Lumpy or Jesse or Cantwell it's the fact that you promote them as activists of note. The less savvy follow your lead and let these idiots into their lives.

You seem to have used the word "movement" to avoid the unpleasantness of specifically attacking Ian.  It's good to get past that obfuscation to the real point.  Correct me if I'm wrong: you believe Ian has hurt the freedom movement by promoting the likes of JP and Cantwell on The Free Keene Blog, on Free Talk Live, and at Keenevention; you fear this is a pattern, and that Ian or others might bring still greater harm to the freedom movement by not being more careful who they associate with.

Maybe so, maybe not.  I appreciate you expressing your concerns.  Ian's responses seem sound.  I'm not nearly clear sighted enough to say where to draw what lines here, but being vigilant and watching out for each other seems good. 

To that end, about JP:  JP and a bunch of us were in Central Square one night.  Later I learned that while we were there, JP had called 911 on the UPS guy whose truck was idling on the circle, partially blocking a lane.  To my mind, that's a bad thing.  The next time I saw him, I was sitting in the KAC with a handful of others when he came in.  I brought it up and told him I believed calling 911 on the UPS guy was a bad thing to do.

They will keep denying long past the point most people will be embarrassed and admit they've been caught. In fact they often go on the offensive.

When cornered the pathological liar can sometimes turn and go on the offensive.

JP angrily lashed out at me saying that if I had a problem to talk to him about it and not to talking behind his back.  This seemed strange, as I was then talking to him about it and had avoided talking behind his back.  When I pointed this out he calmed right down and made his case defending the call.  I made it clear to him that I was unconvinced, still thought the 911 call was a bad thing to do, and that I would have to be wary of him.

Some days later JP and I were alone together on the KAC front porch.  As a teenager, I had foolishly wanted more than anything to be part of a nuclear submarine crew, part of the most badass machine ever made.  As such I got an appointment to Annapolis, which bad eyesight barely saved me from, leaving me wondering what my life would have become if my eyes had been better or I'd gone to a freer country where I could get the new lazer eye surgery not yet allowed in the USA.

So I asked JP what it was like at Annapolis.  He didn't seem to want to talk about it.  I asked him how he got his appointment.  I was a top student and an athlete, but it was selling lots of tickets to various political fund raising dinners and cleaining mountains of dishes afterward that got me an appointment from Barber Conable.  JP didn't have a story about how he got his appointment and quickly changed the subject.  Not going about being curious, I didn't give that another thought until reading the opening post on this thread.

That being said, there were maybe a dozen other times JP was among the crowd I was with.  I was glad to have him there, and I would welcome his company still, even if he told tales about Babe his blue ox.

Tom, if you find any evidence disputing JP's claims about himself, please share, but so far all I've seen are internet posts from people neither you or I know.  Why should I discern that Don Shipley is a trustworthy and careful researcher?    He looks like someone I would want to avoid.  o_O



 



Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on January 11, 2015, 12:31 PM NHFT
JP might very well be a good guy doing good things and righteous activism, today. But not very long ago...

This is hilarious. 

KBCraig, when I first started lurking here you deceived me, though probably not intentionally.  Around here KB means "Kind Bud."  'KBCraig' I figured must be a cannabis connoisseur named Craig. 

What a horror it was learning that you were standing guard over my peaceful neighbors, political prisoners in the horrible war on cannabis combusters.  Where was the discernment on the part of he NH Underground movement promoting such an aggressor and KB pretender as a decent underground member.  I might have followed their lead and let you into my life.

Kevin, do you know that a lot of people in the freedom movement want prison guards to be hunted down and punished like Nazi concentration camp guards have been, and they won't consider the imperial war on peaceful people to be over and justice to be done until you are punished.  Many libertarian people when discerning whose not virtuous enough for our great freedom movement would put the likes of KBCraig near the top of the list.

Now I don't even know you, am not qualified to judge you, and don't revile you.  For all I know you were working from the inside, risking your freedom and comfort to help many of my wrongly incarcerated brothers escape from your dungeons.  Some people that I know and have great respect for seem well disposed to you, but I'm still much more wary of you than of JP.  How ridiculous you look up there on your high horse.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 11, 2015, 03:09 PM NHFT
The issue isn't Jp or Lumpy or Jesse or Cantwell it's the fact that you promote them as activists of note. The less savvy follow your lead and let these idiots into their lives.

The lack of judgment is appalling.

Tom,

Everyone I know in Keene is well aware that JP tells stories that are unverifiable.  No one's been duped into trusting people here because I report on activist news on the blog or because I do activism with people.

What you appear to be saying is that I have followers who believe that because I've had someone who is a doer on Free Talk Live, been seen with the person doing activism, or have blogged about something they've done, that I'm somehow giving them my endorsement and they should trust that person.  If you think I have followers who hang on my every word, you don't really understand the situation. 

Activists are humans and are imperfect.  These imperfect people are doing things in Keene.  I report on them.  I don't say give them your life savings or access to your email accounts.  If someone decides to trust someone because I wrote a news story about their activism, that's THEIR problem.  Sometimes I report on people I've never met or barely know.  Does that mean anyone should trust them, too?

Quote
Activism 101 says if they come into the group promoting violence that you have to assume they are a plant. Even if they aren't they will "draw fire", discredit, and divide the group. as has already been proven. You think the feds stopped trying to crawl up ya'll asses after Rich Paul failed. I have to say that they are completely within their mission statement when people promote killing cops.

What makes you think I think feds aren't around?  I don't care who the fed is.  I'm not plotting violence.  I figure there's always feds around.

Quote
I didn't call you out on this thread you did that yourself.

You obfuscated, spun and wiggled your way around. Even knowing that this clown was a liar you invited my wife and child into the potential danger. I have been reminded that the people you promote are, often, not to be trusted.

When did I invite your family into danger?  I don't recall inviting them anywhere as of late.  What is the danger, that JP is going to tell them a whopper of a story during a Social Sunday?

Quote
You have come to enjoy thinking you are so clever that people can't catch on to your techniques. How many have left in frustration... real activists of note.

Brother, you seem really jaded.  I've never been anything but respectful to you and appreciative of your work.  Frankly, you're disconnected from what happens around here and you don't know how the community handles issues with personalities.  I appreciate your concern, but you're not in possession of the facts.  I don't know what techniques you're talking about.

I appreciate people who do good activism.  I report on those people.  Some of them I'll work with on activism.  I don't agree with everyone who does activism's viewpoints and my reporting on them or working with them doesn't require that I agree with them 100%.  I've heard this "quality over quantity" complaint many times, and I'm not going on some kind of activist purity purge because some people just can't get along.

Quote
StopFreeKeene are repugnant, but covering up is the sin here. Copblock needs to clean house as well, this shit is likely to blow back on many.

If not this cast of characters, some future fool will roll into town and everyone even casually connected can be at jeopardy to be dragged into a grand jury and compelled to testify. A shit storm that will cause incredible damage.

There's a lot of shit that can happen, but there's really no point in worrying.   Just do the right thing.

Please stop playing into the BS narrative that I'm somehow in charge around here.  I'm in charge of no one except myself.  JP and Chris Cantwell do not blog for Free Keene - I'm in charge of that.  However, because I'm friendly with them, as I am with nearly everyone, I get shit from those who want some kind of purity purge.  Sounds to me like those folks demanding the purge are the ones dividing "the movement".   ::)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 11, 2015, 03:30 PM NHFT
Don't forget that Mark, my co-host on Free Talk Live spent nine years in prison for MURDER a couple decades back.  Maybe the purity purge should start with him?  People might trust him with his innocent-looking wife, kid, dog and cat, and let him into their lives because he co-hosts Free Talk Live with me six nights per week.  Clearly, I'm ruining the movement by associating with this character of ill-repute.  Plus, anyone who gets close to him is risking being murdered.  How irresponsible!  What was I thinking!?!!?

I'd like to apologize to "the movement".  I've been a terrible charismatic leader and am officially resigning from being in charge.  I'll be shutting down FTL, LRN, FK, and all my other projects before I can do any more damage with my terrible judgement.

 ::)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Mark_FTL on January 11, 2015, 03:45 PM NHFT
It's harder to get into the Naval Academy than Harvard. Jp can barely spell.

LOL
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on January 11, 2015, 03:48 PM NHFT
Must be that time of year when it's cold and dark out and people get a little depressed and start blaming what they think is a logical cause for some problem they are involved in.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on January 11, 2015, 03:51 PM NHFT
It's harder to get into the Naval Academy than Harvard. Jp can barely spell.

LOL

JP says he suffered a brain injury in Iraq, sounds like a good excuse to me for grammar issues. (truthful or not)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: ChrisLawfulman on January 11, 2015, 04:34 PM NHFT
From my experience, libertarians are much more free thinking than the average person. To think Ian is doing something wrong for talking with and publishing the acts of questionable people, as if libertarians are going to latch on to Ian's words like sheeple do MSM, is funny.

I assume those reading this thread do not generalize all libertarian minded people in Keene, which I am one of, to the handful of sociopaths that find themselves a lot of attention.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on January 11, 2015, 04:54 PM NHFT
People should do some self examination, 'cause whatever's happen'n here ain't about JP.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Becky Thatcher on January 11, 2015, 05:25 PM NHFT
Everyone I know in Keene is well aware that JP tells stories that are unverifiable.

I think this is the crux of the biscuit right here and the lack of discernment that Tom was talking about.  I don't put my trust in or turn my back on liars because they lie.  And if a friend of mine knows someone is a big fat liar, I would appreciate it if they would give me a heads up so I can act accordingly.  Same thing with assholes.  Life is too short to waste it in the company of liars and assholes.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 11, 2015, 09:33 PM NHFT
Becky, if you spent any amount of time in Keene with the activist community, you'd have heard plenty about his stories.   People talk quite a bit here.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 11, 2015, 09:47 PM NHFT
In short, there's plenty of discerning going on, but there is also forgiveness and the willingness to work with people who aren't perfect.  I'm grateful to be in such a community.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on January 11, 2015, 11:01 PM NHFT
JP might very well be a good guy doing good things and righteous activism, today. But not very long ago...

This is hilarious. 

KBCraig, when I first started lurking here you deceived me, though probably not intentionally.  Around here KB means "Kind Bud."  'KBCraig' I figured must be a cannabis connoisseur named Craig. 

What a horror it was learning that you were standing guard over my peaceful neighbors, political prisoners in the horrible war on cannabis combusters.  Where was the discernment on the part of he NH Underground movement promoting such an aggressor and KB pretender as a decent underground member.  I might have followed their lead and let you into my life.

Long before you first posted here, I was quite open about both my employment, my mixed feelings about it, and my outright opposition to the war on drugs and almost every other category of federal "crime" that keeps prisons filled. When I first met Ron Paul, I told him that I hoped he would eliminate my job. And when he saw that I was serious, he threw back his head, laughed, and pumped my hand.

A late, and great, friend from this forum once told someone, "Yeah, but he's our fed!"  I only learned this well after his untimely death, and I had to smile. You see, people who judged me by my actions, including some actions in favor of the liberty movement that put my job at risk, used their discernment to learn to trust me.

That's not quite the same as someone who has made repeated dishonest claims or representations, not come clean about his past claims, and even in the recent past has called the police on someone like the UPS driver you told us about.


Quote
Kevin, do you know that a lot of people in the freedom movement want prison guards to be hunted down and punished like Nazi concentration camp guards have been, and they won't consider the imperial war on peaceful people to be over and justice to be done until you are punished.  Many libertarian people when discerning whose not virtuous enough for our great freedom movement would put the likes of KBCraig near the top of the list.

Fortunately for me, even if I hadn't already left that line of work and moved into honest work in the private sector, that "lot of people" seem to be represented by blowhards like Cantwell.

For anyone determined to hunt me down and punish me for my past, I'm not hard to find. Some of the best and brightest anarchists have brightened my living room, in times of joy and times of sorrow, but always in true friendship.

There's a risk in that, of course.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on January 11, 2015, 11:11 PM NHFT
In short, there's plenty of discerning going on, but there is also forgiveness and the willingness to work with people who aren't perfect.  I'm grateful to be in such a community.

I also believe in the power of forgiveness, because forgiveness is to let the agrieved heal. Forgiveness when there is no repentance, if one pretends the offense never happened, is just begging for it to be repeated.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 12, 2015, 01:56 AM NHFT
I couldn't disagree with Cantwell more on the topic of violence, but it's important to not ignore the viewpoint, if for no other reason than to use it as a foil to promote peace.  Cantwell's view is fairly common within the movement - I used to hold it until I was positively influenced by people like Russell.  I want to model peace to Cantwell, and by proxy, his followers.  Maybe I'll never be successful converting him, but his fans listening to FTL (he now hosts with us on Wednesdays) cannot be a bad thing.
I really don't get some of these ideas.
What do you have in common with Cantwell?
Why not have other jerks on your show?
Maybe I am just missing something.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 12, 2015, 02:01 AM NHFT
So the number of views or any metric of audience size trumps everything else. Thanks for acknowledging it.
Maybe Chris could hit you across the back with a chair when the referee isn't looking, that should whip up the crowd.  ;D
That is funny.
I like attracting an audience, but some ways of doing it can be wrong.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 12, 2015, 03:03 AM NHFT
Thanks for the input from some guys in Keene, especially k neth  or whatever your handle was. :-)
If you guys are handling these kinds of issues in house pretty well, maybe you can think of a way to better present yourselves to outsiders.

BTW back when KBcraig was working for the feds, I had to hassle him once a week, so for most oif the history of this underground I hope people should have known our position.

I guess that is an example of how it is good to help onlookers know what you are thinking.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: ChrisLawfulman on January 12, 2015, 08:51 AM NHFT
In short, there's plenty of discerning going on, but there is also forgiveness and the willingness to work with people who aren't perfect.  I'm grateful to be in such a community.

I too enjoy forgiveness and the willingness to work with people who aren't perfect, which is definitely an awesome aspect of the community. However, I also see where KBCraig is coming from when he says "Forgiveness when there is no repentance, if one pretends the offense never happened, is just begging for it to be repeated."
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on January 12, 2015, 11:05 AM NHFT
However, I also see where KBCraig is coming from when he says "Forgiveness when there is no repentance, if one pretends the offense never happened, is just begging for it to be repeated."

Yeah, have to agree with that as well.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 12, 2015, 10:38 PM NHFT
People should do some self examination, 'cause whatever's happen'n here ain't about JP.

Very diplomatic and good point.

I started this thread not naming anyone in particular other than the person that was continuing their bad behavior.
You asked for reference material on the subject.

I used a question mark at the end of the first sentence  at the beginning of the thread because I wasn't 100% sure if it was true. Then instead of clarity Ian muddied things and made me wonder if I had wrongly accused someone. Upon further investigation I found out the BS story was still being spread by JP or whatever name he choses. Then Ian went into a "that depends on what the definition of is is" defense.  ;D :P

Treating the audience as if they are rubes is particularly annoying. Neither "heroic" or "epic".  ;D

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 12, 2015, 10:58 PM NHFT
As an aspiring monk I avoid judging, reviling, going about being curious, and examing the business of others.  For the last couple weeks this thread has been a terrible challenge full of temptations.  Now  I'm wading in, perhaps foolishly, and will try to serve God, commenting with love, and avoiding temptations.

Having multiple identities, often means history.

Tom, ...

Is your name really "Tom Sawyer"?!  I've always assumed it was not. :O)

Tom, I don't believe we've met, but I've come to respect you from reading your posts here, and looking forward to meeting you some day.

Perhaps I can try and trick you into painting a fence.  ;D Of course a reference to the book.

Thanks for taking the time to share your observations. You were pretty much on the mark  8) about my motivations etc.

Some of what I posted would be considered circumstantial evidence but it all adds up to what many people from different places were saying the same things.

I too was offered at least a preliminary opportunity to go to Annapolis in Boot Camp. They had a program where kids like me that scored well on the testing would go to a one year Prep School before going to the College. I don't think I would have made it through all the screening because I honestly don't think I was really mature enough at 17.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 12, 2015, 11:24 PM NHFT
Welcome to the underground Chris and Jay, I am obviously the Diplomatic Liaison for the forum.   ;D

Joking aside I have met some great folks here.

Jim Johnson, has been an invaluable help to me and my family. I can't think of anyone I'd trust more to be on the safety rope protecting me from plummeting to my death. He has stood by me even when I have made it difficult to be my friend.

Russell Kanning was my inspiration to participate with this bunch of principled nuts.

Lauren Canario, William and I went to her rescue because others in the wider FSP weren't going to do it when she sacrificed of herself to bring attention to the travesty of New London Conn.

Kat Kanning who always made us feel welcome and we had fun family stuff to do. Not forgetting her going to jail for what she believed.

The list could go on and on... some of the smartest most principled people I have risk me and families safety for. The nexus of the whole movement.



Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 13, 2015, 12:33 PM NHFT
In short, there's plenty of discerning going on, but there is also forgiveness and the willingness to work with people who aren't perfect.  I'm grateful to be in such a community.

I too enjoy forgiveness and the willingness to work with people who aren't perfect, which is definitely an awesome aspect of the community. However, I also see where KBCraig is coming from when he says "Forgiveness when there is no repentance, if one pretends the offense never happened, is just begging for it to be repeated."

Well, JP did apologize for upsetting Dale.  He owned up.  Besides that, I've never heard of anyone claiming they've been wronged by JP.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 13, 2015, 12:35 PM NHFT
That said, I do see a lot of people dragging him through the mud without having bothered to meet him or talk to him about it.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 13, 2015, 06:33 PM NHFT
as best as I can recall .... back when I was in the Seals .... I dragged that guy to safety through 1 mile of mud
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on January 13, 2015, 11:45 PM NHFT
as best as I can recall .... back when I was in the Seals .... I dragged that guy to safety through 1 mile of mud

I can tell that you were Seal Team 9-3/4.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on January 14, 2015, 12:23 AM NHFT
Mud has frequently been used to seal things.  Just look at old log cabins.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 14, 2015, 06:50 AM NHFT
This might clarify things... yeah that's the ticket.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on January 14, 2015, 08:05 AM NHFT
as best as I can recall .... back when I was in the Seals .... I dragged that guy to safety through 1 mile of mud


  The rain and the mud at Wood Stock was horrible, horrible, but then Jimi came on and everything was beautiful man....beautiful!
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 14, 2015, 09:28 AM NHFT
as best as I can recall .... back when I was in the Seals .... I dragged that guy to safety through 1 mile of mud


  The rain and the mud at Wood Stock was horrible, horrible, but then Jimi came on and everything was beautiful man....beautiful!
;D 8)
Don't take the brown acid.
Jimi was Army Airborne, of course  he was more interested in the guitar, lucky for us music fans.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on January 14, 2015, 01:55 PM NHFT
Well, JP did apologize for upsetting Dale.  He owned up.  Besides that, I've never heard of anyone claiming they've been wronged by JP.

Wait... he apologized for "upsetting" me or for lying to me? Be very clear on what exactly he owned up to. Maybe you should go back and look at what he actually said because I don't know. I avoided all of that because I was being threatened with a lawsuit. I'm not even going to go into any details about suspicions that he may have actually been telling me a LOT of lies because that would be getting a bit personal on a public space and I really am trying to put all that behind me forever and never ever fucking deal with him again if at all possible. This is about you. You know for a fact that he told one lie because it involved you and you personally verified to me that it was a lie. Again, leaving out details because this thread is about you and your lack of discernment as you're part of the Keene movement. At least you're the one who's taken up the torch of arguing to the contrary.

Just how far in the past does an action have to be for it to be considered irrelevant to you? Mark's a completely different person than he was many years ago for things he has since owned up to and clearly learned from. I mean, technically EVERYTHING is in the past. This post will be in the past after I hit the "post" button. This is getting fucking ridiculous.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on January 18, 2015, 12:33 PM NHFT
I guess you can call me the thread-killer!
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 18, 2015, 12:55 PM NHFT
I guess you can call me the thread-killer!

Dane, the Thread Killer!  ;D 8)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on January 18, 2015, 12:58 PM NHFT
I guess you can call me the thread-killer!

...and it was going so well.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 20, 2015, 03:14 PM NHFT
we love you anyways Dale

hey we gotta rally the troops here ..... I got called out by K'neth in a personal message for spelling his name wrong. I need my other Seal team members to back me up on this one.

ya know for us guys that survived the mud at woodstock ... spelling is the least of our problems.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 20, 2015, 05:37 PM NHFT
Maybe there has just been a little confusion... maybe instead of saying "I was a SEAL, errrrrr!" He meant to say "I am the Walrus, coo coo ca chew!"
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on January 20, 2015, 06:33 PM NHFT
Maybe there has just been a little confusion... maybe instead of saying "I was a SEAL, errrrrr!" He meant to say "I am the Walrus, coo coo ca chew!"

I can see how someone might be confused there.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Pat K on January 20, 2015, 08:24 PM NHFT
we love you anyways Dale

hey we gotta rally the troops here ..... I got called out by K'neth in a personal message for spelling his name wrong. I need my other Seal team members to back me up on this one.

ya know for us guys that survived the mud at woodstock ... spelling is the least of our problems.


Who's K'neth ?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 20, 2015, 09:31 PM NHFT
we love you anyways Dale

hey we gotta rally the troops here ..... I got called out by K'neth in a personal message for spelling his name wrong. I need my other Seal team members to back me up on this one.

ya know for us guys that survived the mud at woodstock ... spelling is the least of our problems.


Who's K'neth ?

Jeez Pat ya gotta keep up here. All sunburnt and smelling of fish doesn't mean you can't check in here occasionally.

Dude in Keene that I'm hoping to trick into painting a fence.
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=27261.msg356490#msg356490
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 20, 2015, 09:41 PM NHFT
Mark 69 dude!    *in my best Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure voice*
(http://arafwchnawr.com/images/Mark_FTL%2069.jpg)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 20, 2015, 10:00 PM NHFT
I agree PatK .... until someone hangs out here for a year .... we can't be expected to remember his name. :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 26, 2015, 01:54 PM NHFT
My Response To The Brad Spangler Situation
Kelsey Eichhorn-Fetterhoff
http://youtu.be/UbyZH-H79GE?t=3m53s

FTL called out on putting clicks ahead of, well, a fifteen year old girl.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on January 26, 2015, 03:48 PM NHFT


Yellow matter custard
Dripping from a dead dog's eye  :icon_guitarist: 

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on January 26, 2015, 08:39 PM NHFT
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10428025_874208442620148_7564193212601003014_n.jpg?oh=f755b39c0c1d82cede4cbf7867cc1226&oe=555F9C75)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 26, 2015, 09:33 PM NHFT
ouch
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on January 27, 2015, 06:57 AM NHFT
 Double ouch.     

Although the Lysander Spooner coffee mug was a nice touch.   ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 31, 2015, 08:58 PM NHFT
Wait... he apologized for "upsetting" me or for lying to me? Be very clear on what exactly he owned up to. Maybe you should go back and look at what he actually said because I don't know.

I believe he apologized for threatening you with court.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on January 31, 2015, 09:02 PM NHFT
My Response To The Brad Spangler Situation
Kelsey Eichhorn-Fetterhoff
http://youtu.be/UbyZH-H79GE?t=3m53s

FTL called out on putting clicks ahead of, well, a fifteen year old girl.

Tom, this person didn't even hear the conversation to which she is referring.  Her name wasn't even mentioned and it didn't even happen on a show that I was hosting.  (So I knew nothing about it, but got targeted for it.)  Don't believe everything you hear about us, especially when you could just ask one of us about it rather than dragging FTL through the mud.  She said she was going to provide evidence to Mark and she never did. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 01, 2015, 06:47 AM NHFT
My Response To The Brad Spangler Situation
Kelsey Eichhorn-Fetterhoff
http://youtu.be/UbyZH-H79GE?t=3m53s

FTL called out on putting clicks ahead of, well, a fifteen year old girl.

Tom, this person didn't even hear the conversation to which she is referring.  Her name wasn't even mentioned and it didn't even happen on a show that I was hosting.  (So I knew nothing about it, but got targeted for it.)  Don't believe everything you hear about us, especially when you could just ask one of us about it rather than dragging FTL through the mud.  She said she was going to provide evidence to Mark and she never did.


Ian, I have to have doubts about what you say because of past duplicity with examples as shown in this thread."the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellianism)

And to play the Ian card "I" didn't drag FTL through the mud, she did. By the way I found her video separately from your enemies over at Stop Free Keene. Viewing info about the kiddie diddler Brad Spangler.

As has been pointed out by many others, including Mark, your public position on age of consent has contributed to these PR problems. It is often perceived as cover for pedophiles, by both the public at large and the actual pedophiles. Academic arguments are trumped by real world results. Nothing is a bigger family repellant than kiddie diddling.

The problem, as I see it, is you are free to put whatever kind of content up on your show that you like. At the same time people are free to be unhappy with it, and withdraw support. You are free to have whoever you want cohost your show. But, don't be surprised if the shit splashes on to everyone if they turn out to be a turd.

So how about a link to the content in question? That should clear things right up.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 01, 2015, 01:14 PM NHFT
I don't think Tom is gunna talk Ian into paintin that fence for him this summer. :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on February 01, 2015, 02:48 PM NHFT
John talked me into painting the PAC fence, but then I caught a ride out of town before getting the chance.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 01, 2015, 06:14 PM NHFT
 ;D ;D ;D

You guys make me laugh, which is something that keeps me coming back.  :) 8)

PAC has a pretty wild paint job on the fence. I like the colorful addition to the traditional church.  :D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 02, 2015, 07:29 AM NHFT
I believe he apologized for threatening you with court.

So he didn't apologize for lying, the subject that this thread is all about, and the thing that you said was in his past while personally factually knowing that he did recently. Gotcha.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 02, 2015, 08:00 AM NHFT
Misdirection is the first thing I learned at magic school.  ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: John on February 02, 2015, 04:09 PM NHFT
K neth
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 03, 2015, 12:20 AM NHFT
I believe he apologized for threatening you with court.

So he didn't apologize for lying, the subject that this thread is all about, and the thing that you said was in his past while personally factually knowing that he did recently. Gotcha.

JP appears to be a pathological liar, by all evidence.  I don't think he can help it.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 03, 2015, 12:30 AM NHFT
My Response To The Brad Spangler Situation
Kelsey Eichhorn-Fetterhoff
http://youtu.be/UbyZH-H79GE?t=3m53s

FTL called out on putting clicks ahead of, well, a fifteen year old girl.

Tom, this person didn't even hear the conversation to which she is referring.  Her name wasn't even mentioned and it didn't even happen on a show that I was hosting.  (So I knew nothing about it, but got targeted for it.)  Don't believe everything you hear about us, especially when you could just ask one of us about it rather than dragging FTL through the mud.  She said she was going to provide evidence to Mark and she never did.


Ian, I have to have doubts about what you say because of past duplicity with examples as shown in this thread."the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellianism)

And to play the Ian card "I" didn't drag FTL through the mud, she did. By the way I found her video separately from your enemies over at Stop Free Keene. Viewing info about the kiddie diddler Brad Spangler.

As has been pointed out by many others, including Mark, your public position on age of consent has contributed to these PR problems. It is often perceived as cover for pedophiles, by both the public at large and the actual pedophiles. Academic arguments are trumped by real world results. Nothing is a bigger family repellant than kiddie diddling.

The problem, as I see it, is you are free to put whatever kind of content up on your show that you like. At the same time people are free to be unhappy with it, and withdraw support. You are free to have whoever you want cohost your show. But, don't be surprised if the shit splashes on to everyone if they turn out to be a turd.

So how about a link to the content in question? That should clear things right up.

Talk to Mark Edge - he'll tell you the same thing about the young lady's video accusations.  I wasn't even on the show in question, Tom, but yes, I think the age of consent is bullshit, and I am really not concerned about the bad PR that comes with that.

Where have I been duplicitous in any of our interactions, Tom?  I've always appreciated knowing you and your activism.  I've happily hired you to do work, paid on schedule, and was more than satisfied with the performance.

You may not like all my opinions and my tolerance for peoples' faults, but I'm not two-faced. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Mark_FTL on February 03, 2015, 12:46 AM NHFT
This thread is really getting out of hand.

The show was July 31, 2011. Go to the 1:33:50 mark to begin listening. Stephanie brings up the topic and by mentioning a post on Facebook by a friend. She never mentions Brad's name, nor Kelsey. It was a Sunday Show, and Ian was not on it. The best I can tell, Kelsey never listened to the program and has held a grudge for 4 years based on hearing that we had talked about her. I asked her to type out an email and plainly state her grievance. She said I was awesome. I have not yet received that email; it has been more than a week.

I would ask people here to do the same. Plainly state what your grievance is against Ian and tell him what you want him to do about it. This "compiling evidence that Ian is a bad guy" is ridiculous.

https://www.freetalklive.com/content/podcast_2011_07_31
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on February 03, 2015, 12:50 AM NHFT
She said I was awesome.

 :butterfly:
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 03, 2015, 12:55 AM NHFT
I believe he apologized for threatening you with court.

So he didn't apologize for lying, the subject that this thread is all about, and the thing that you said was in his past while personally factually knowing that he did recently. Gotcha.

JP appears to be a pathological liar, by all evidence.  I don't think he can help it.

See, if you had started off this way the rest of this wouldn't have followed.

The other thing is you could have not promoted him to others. I have little faith in what you say, first I thought it was poor judgement, then I thought it was blind promotion... who the heck has time to figure out why someone is BS you around. The first whiff I get I'm done. I had back off of giving you grief, because I saw that criticism was not accepted, and I do see the positives of your efforts to include financing events etc. I read your blog, and mostly benefit from an information source. But, the obvious bias puts it in the category of FOX news. After a little while the viewer gets tired of being treated like a rube and feeling they are being manipulated...

From the start I have recognized your ambitions. It's the fact that you will purposely obfuscate in the pursuit.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 03, 2015, 01:08 AM NHFT
This thread is really getting out of hand.

The show was July 31, 2011. Go to the 1:33:50 mark to begin listening. Stephanie brings up the topic and by mentioning a post on Facebook by a friend. She never mentions Brad's name, nor Kelsey. It was a Sunday Show, and Ian was not on it. The best I can tell, Kelsey never listened to the program and has held a grudge for 4 years based on hearing that we had talked about her. I asked her to type out an email and plainly state her grievance. She said I was awesome. I have not yet received that email; it has been more than a week.

I would ask people here to do the same. Plainly state what your grievance is against Ian and tell him what you want him to do about it. This "compiling evidence that Ian is a bad guy" is ridiculous.

https://www.freetalklive.com/content/podcast_2011_07_31

Thanks Mark, sorry to splash shit inadvertently on you. I know you try to rein Ian in, but dang he sure likes to pretend things are different than they are.

I have to politely disagree with you about warning people of Ian's tactics. Someone's credibility is very important. I stopped talking about it, others now approach me and have come to similar conclusions. The real test is if our opposition had the behavior would we criticize it?

As to the thread getting out of hand...
I have done this here, I didn't come into ya'lls space and try to stir up shit. This is the venue for dissent, as it was in it's origin.

And apparently trolling is the new technique to drive traffic, per ya'lls cohost. Don't think that his abrasive shit isn't splashing on to you. Even if Ian posts a blog saying he doesn't support him, then does many things that in fact support him.

Like I said before ya'll can run your show as you see fit, and we can find fault in it. To use Ian's own words, "The market has spoken!"  ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 03, 2015, 01:26 AM NHFT
Thank you Mark. You are absolutely correct about the show in question.

I would give you karma, but then you wouldn't have 69 anymore.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 03, 2015, 01:44 AM NHFT
As to the age of consent and not caring about the PR factor that speaks back to the title of the thread.

I have both read about and personally seen examples of actual problems caused with in this community. Why don't we promote necrophilia, or as I remember cannibalism? Maybe the cannibals and necrophiliacs can hang out at the KAC with the kiddie cuddlers and cop killers!  ;D

Personally it even had an effect recently on my own decisions. A young relative that was interested in the idea of going to Porcfest with us. I couldn't honestly tell her parents that I felt entirely confident that she would be safe to roam about. I can take that risk with my child. I'm not worried about William, he would raise holy hell to be followed by his big, angry dad and if necessary we could unleash his mom (sweet mother of god, I pity the fool  ;D ).

It was a follower of your cohost that was acting in an unsafe and menacing manner while armed at Porcfest. That's the kind of forces that can be potentially unleashed with rhetoric. The downside is so great, and to people that consider the effect of their actions in the real world, it's irresponsible to risk everyone else's safety and efforts. One bad incident, one Brad Spangler... one gun nut that has an accidental discharge or worse purposely shots someone...
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 03, 2015, 01:55 AM NHFT
I've happily hired you to do work, paid on schedule, and was more than satisfied with the performance.

The money earned was helpful to my family and I appreciated it. I said that to you at the time.

I was working for Jim Johnson, I have complete faith in Jim's integrity. I also told Jim that I had no doubt of you living up to payment etc.

Those business dealings are seperate from my activism. We did a good job (http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=24450.msg345043#msg345043) and you payed well for the service.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on February 03, 2015, 12:06 PM NHFT
I have both read about and personally seen examples of actual problems caused with in this community. Why don't we promote necrophilia, or as I remember cannibalism?

Because few, if any, are harmed by the laws prohibiting such things, whereas many human beings have their lives destroyed each year due to the ridiculous AoC laws that label something felony rape with lifetime registration as a sex offender if it happens one day, but a perfectly-acceptable relationship between two loving adults it if happens the very next day.

And, on the flip side, because actual predators can claim that it wasn't "really rape" even when it actually was.  If there is a lack of consent, for any reason (active refusal, unconsciousness, inebriation, lack of maturity), then it's rape.  Period.  End of sentence.  Not "statutory rape."  Just rape.

Eliminating AoC and simply making maturity an element of the crime would make it clear that rape is always rape, would not impede any legitimate prosecutions of predators (no jury is going to believe that a 10-year-old was able to consent, but on the same note, no jury will believe that someone who could consent on his sixteenth birthday could not consent the day before), and would eliminate life-destroying miscarriages of justice.

Current AoC laws cause a great deal of harm, themselves, and then turn around and excuse behavior that is actually harmful as something less.  Rapists are rapists, and should all be treated as they deserve.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 03, 2015, 12:33 PM NHFT
I agree that laws are often a problem.

My position is not violating the NAP is the minimum requirement to keep from killing each other. It is not enough to build a cohesive community.

I think this is a fundamental problem that I think eludes many libertarians. Especially the ones that cherry pick the principles to suit their own agendas.

By the way I like your take/explanation... it shows discernment.  ;D The shades of gray are where we all live, perhaps moving towards the lighter shades as we get it right.

I also know that I have never seen you acting angry while armed. It's ugly, and the real gun guys never do it.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on February 03, 2015, 02:22 PM NHFT
My position is not violating the NAP is the minimum requirement to keep from killing each other. It is not enough to build a cohesive community.

I think this is a fundamental problem that I think eludes many libertarians. Especially the ones that cherry pick the principles to suit their own agendas.

Correct.  As I would state it, the NAP defines morality (right versus wrong), but not ethics (better versus worse).  If a cashier hands me too much change, I can freely walk out of the store with that extra, and have done nothing wrong, because it was the cashier's mistake, not any choice of mine which caused the cashier to freely hand me extra money.

But it would be a very unethical thing to do, and is detrimental to the community.  Just because you can do something, does not mean you should do that thing.

Laws which set strict rules with no shades of grey have a similar impact.  By taking judgment away from the individual, they teach that discernment should not exist.  Which is not to say that some things are not so eggregious that they cannot be defined as strictly wrong, but that such should be reserved for those sort of things, not cases where individual judgment is absolutely necessary.

By the way I like your take/explanation... it shows discernment.  ;D The shades of gray are where we all live, perhaps moving towards the lighter shades as we get it right.

Thanks.  I always say that the point of a principled stand is to have a goal in mind.  Imperfect humans will always run some risk of making mistakes, even with the best of intentions.  Principles are there to guide us away from such mistakes, but we have to accept that, as imperfect beings, mistakes will sometimes be made.  How we respond after we make a mistake is probably a more important reflection of our character than whether we made the mistake to begin with.

I also know that I have never seen you acting angry while armed. It's ugly, and the real gun guys never do it.

I doubt you'll ever see me angry, regardless of armament.  I don't choose to live my life that way.  But I'm even more careful to not only avoid anger, but to avoid even the appearance of anger, when I am publicly armed, as I know that others will observe my behavior and potentially form positive or negative opinions about ownership and carry of weapons as a result of that behavior.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 03, 2015, 10:54 PM NHFT
Wow, go stuff.  8)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 04, 2015, 12:42 AM NHFT
I believe he apologized for threatening you with court.

So he didn't apologize for lying, the subject that this thread is all about, and the thing that you said was in his past while personally factually knowing that he did recently. Gotcha.

JP appears to be a pathological liar, by all evidence.  I don't think he can help it.

See, if you had started off this way the rest of this wouldn't have followed.

I gave you my truthful initial response - the statement I made there is after more recent evidence (not from years ago) has come to light. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 04, 2015, 12:48 AM NHFT
JP is currently in hot water for owing people money.  No need to try to discern old claims of dishonesty, when we have some examples of questionable behavior happening now. 

These things have a way of working themselves out.  That said, he's still a good cop blocker who has done good work de-escalating conflict in the streets.

I still look on the bright side, of JP as well as Cantwell.  Neither of them are monsters.  They are flawed human beings, just like the rest of us. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 04, 2015, 07:48 AM NHFT
I appreciate the straight up answer.

Although I'd say that both are candidates for having been compromised. Of course that's me looking from a distance. Which begs the question how can I, from a distance, figure these things out and people on the scene can't see them? Or see them and somehow the situations allowed to fester. Of course these are rhetorical questions. It's up to your folks to learn these lessons, figure it out.

We've had our share of liars and violent rhetoric folks come through here. I helped run them off. Someone, probably other than you, because dang you are wearing lots of different hats, has to step up and fill the role.

The movement attracts lots of people that nobody knows anything about. They should meet up to the standards of the previous trusted participants. Networks of friends and associates can act as the filter to help protect everyone's interests.

I'm not going to list the people that have been traded away.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 04, 2015, 11:40 AM NHFT
I agree man.
Everyone is flawed .... but it makes sense to avoid, shun, call out, or even oppose some people.
Just because someone wants to join your movement, doesn't mean it will work out. :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on February 04, 2015, 03:55 PM NHFT
Embracing the Rapist!  Is that what we have here?

My local Peace Alliance has a monthly "Being Peace" discussion, usually contemplating a passage by some revered guru.  Often a division forms.  Some of us look for the divine spark in everyone, struggle in our ignorance to understand what forces motivate actions, and refuse to judge or hate anyone for what we understand them to have done.  Some look for the good and evil in everyone, are confident in their ability to discern which bad guys deserve punishment or should be cast out.  This second group becomes annoyed by and dismissive of the first group.  This has happened often enough that one guy coined the phrase "Embracing the Rapist" to describe the forgiving and loving group.  The same dynamic seems to be happening here.

I used to get my hate on for all sorts baddies.  But then I unlearned so many things that I once believed I knew.  Now I have no confidence in my ability to discern good from bad with certainty.  I'm such an idiot!  What might I have left to unlearn?

So I will fearlessly embrace the rapist, fearlessly embrace the guy who killed the rapist in retribution, and fearlessly embrace the guy who guards the cell that holds the guy who killed the rapist.  I'll even embrace the guy who took FRNs to smoke pubic hair at the KAC.

Widespread embracing is better for advancement of the freedom movement than selective condemnation based in fear.  Fear is the real enemy of freedom.  Fear empowers those who would presume to rule.

In Joy,
 ~K'neth
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on February 04, 2015, 04:25 PM NHFT
Widespread embracing is better for advancement of the freedom movement than selective condemnation based in fear.

I would agree with that.

But it omits that folks can condemn based upon things other than fear.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 04, 2015, 05:47 PM NHFT
A monastery to give refuge to troubled travelers.

(http://politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/Cardinal_Shireplayercard.jpg)

(http://politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/IMG_8748-Russell-Cardinal.jpg)

An important message from the President of the New Hampshire Underground...
(http://politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/IMG_9090-goofy-tongue.gif)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 04, 2015, 06:24 PM NHFT
I used to get my hate on for all sorts baddies.

I don't believe anyone has suggested hating anyone. Do we have to view things so simplistically black and white? There are billions of people in the world. I have to exercise discernment about the ones I decide to associate with. I can choose to steer clear of certain people for my own safety and other good reasons without hating them.

Tigers might try to eat me. That's just their nature. I don't hate them for it but I avoid them just out of self-interest and self-preservation. I would advise my friends to do the same. Some people have serious issues that cause their goals to run counter to your own or even cause them to be dangerous to deal with. I would also advise friends to avoid them. You're a shitty friend if you don't.

I'm a little peeved that some facts were not shared with me that seemed very relevant before I started considering doing business with J.P. That was a failure in judgment. I'm left without a sense of trust for folks involved in the Keene area liberty movement because of it and I imagine it would take quite a lot of effort and time to rebuild that trust since I don't see much sign of things changing.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on February 05, 2015, 02:12 AM NHFT
Widespread embracing is better for advancement of the freedom movement than selective condemnation based in fear.
But it omits that folks can condemn based upon things other than fear.
It omits far more than just that.

I don't believe anyone has suggested hating anyone.

Quote from: anakin the fallen
release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me

Quote from: Great Sensei Yoda
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering

Do we have to view things so simplistically black and white?

None of this seems simple to me.

There are billions of people in the world. I have to exercise discernment about the ones I decide to associate with. I can choose to steer clear of certain people for my own safety and other good reasons without hating them.
Of course you can.  I avoid most people.  It's a struggle not to be a hermit.

I would advise my friends...
Yes.  That's good.  And it's often good to advise even strangers about disreputable types.

It seems good that "Tom" brought this up about J.P., and that we've shared these observations.  What we've learned as a result of this thread might save someone from trouble.  Does anyone need to be warned about Cantwell?  C4SS doesn't run a daycare does it.

I'm a little peeved that some facts were not shared with me that seemed very relevant before I started considering doing business with J.P.
That's understandable.  I failed when associating with him back in the summer of '13.  It seems I should have been more aware, seen the deception, investigated, learned, spread the word.  Perhaps a fear of conflict, or more likely a fear of doing something that might bring the bad opinion of new acquaintances whose good opinion I'd come to desire, but some fear must have blinded me, and I didn't see.

That was a failure in judgment.
My judgement fails soooo much.

I'm left without a sense of trust for folks involved in the Keene area liberty movement because of it and I imagine it would take quite a lot of effort and time to rebuild that trust since I don't see much sign of things changing.
Once bitten, twice shy.  That's sensible.

The point of this thread, which I've been contemplating:

you believe Ian has hurt the freedom movement by promoting the likes of JP and Cantwell on The Free Keene Blog, on Free Talk Live, and at Keenevention; you fear this is a pattern, and that Ian or others might bring still greater harm to the freedom movement by not being more careful who they associate with.

Maybe so, maybe not.

Well, now I'm thinking "not".  Difficult to see the future is.  But it seems that Ian is attempting to act from Love: embracing the rapist.  And this should have more positive effects.

I see a lot of fear here.  Fear of embarrassment.  "What will people whose opinion I value think of me when they see Cantwell being crazy, when they hear of J.P.s pretending, of Brad's diddling, and associate them as being part of MY gang?"  Fear of failure.  "I've invested a lot in this project, and it could all be ruined by one bad apple."  Fear for the safety of the children.  Fear of being cheated.  Fear of being deceived. Fear of being set up.

These things are very complex, and it's impossible to know with certainty the right path.  Looking deep inside of myself and trying to understand my fears helps me avoid being ruled by them.  Then trying to act from Love often serves as a good guide. 

I embrace the undiscerning Ian

In Joy,
 ~K'neth
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 05, 2015, 08:37 AM NHFT
Would you trade a JP or whatever his name is (cuz we don't know) for Dalebert?

How about FTL's Cantwell for Jason Talley?

Because that is what has been done.

Mark was upset with me for making a list of how "bad" Ian is. I never used the term bad. Someone can have the traits I described and use them for good, which I think Ian mostly does.

First it was a thread about actions in Keene that suggested to me that some people had trouble discerning people's character and the likely results that might come about from that. The fake needed to be outed.

Then Ian came on as the defender. However in his defending, and I would say attempting to protect his brand, he crossed over into the domain of the trickster. Clever man that he is.

I talked about why my family no longer felt we had a place in the movement. The KAC, as an example, is kind of like a college fraternity, god bless 'em. But I've already been down the road the younger crowd is covering, I've already learned (hopefully) many of the lessons you learn along the way. And one of those is that people's character matters. Places and situations that I've experienced, personalities I dealt with, become archetypes that allow you to almost predict what the likely behavior might be.

I related how the perception of people was that FreeKeene was not really a family scene. Even having a repellent effect.

To those who don't remember because they weren't here then...
The Keene cops used to honk and wave when we had sign waves outside the IRS. Even they don't like their tax burden. I liked the divide and conquer aspect of targeting the outsider feds. The locals, mostly, didn't feel attacked.

FTL's Cantwell was the one verbally bullying the meter maid in the video used to discredit the Robin Hooders.
I can have a tendency to get loud under stress. But I have enough sense to realize that aggressively barking at a woman will not be a pretty sight. That's not the only time he has done that. He has done that to women in the movement as well.

So add to the list women traded away as well.

We now spend our efforts with a core group of Homeschoolers and others that are more family friendly. I had wanted to do a Tour de Shire video featuring Keene, but the mission of that video series was to show the moms and kids why they might want to move to the Shire. The men are the easier sell. The families need to see that there is more than getting arrested or running for office to be involved with.

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 05, 2015, 10:47 AM NHFT
also .... when we don't use deadly force with those we think have done wrong .... we can change our minds later and there is not much damage done.

Seems like it is always all of our jobs to protect others from dangerous people.

is that enough of a black and white statement? :)

plus when we don't destroy the wrongdoers .... we can possibly even forgive them down the road when they ask for it.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on February 05, 2015, 12:46 PM NHFT
I see a lot of fear here.  Fear of embarrassment.  "What will people whose opinion I value think of me when they see Cantwell being crazy, when they hear of J.P.s pretending, of Brad's diddling, and associate them as being part of MY gang?"  Fear of failure.  "I've invested a lot in this project, and it could all be ruined by one bad apple."  Fear for the safety of the children.  Fear of being cheated.  Fear of being deceived. Fear of being set up.

Acknowledging that there may be a consequence as a result of some choice, and working to avoid that consequence if it is negative, is not synonymous with fear of that consequence.

If I decide to stop cutting my hair, it would simplify certain aspects of my life (and keep my head warmer in winter).  But the public at large would view me as "unkempt" and be less likely to contract with me (folks tend to want to hand five- and six-figure checks to those whom they perceive as professional, not bums, for some reason).

I don't fear that result, but since I prefer to remain in business, I choose to adhere to certain social standards which will help that happen.

If our purpose is to do more than just sit around telling ourselves how wonderful we are - if our purpose is to actually convince others to abandon hatred and oppression and embrace love and liberty - then we must consider how our choices will reflect upon that purpose.  We may still take paths which are controversial in the opinion of many or most members of that very population which we are attempting to reach (in many cases, "shaking things up" is the only way to get folks to think), but we should be doing that as a result of a consideration of as much as we can know about the situation and the potential outcomes of our decision - making a conscious choice to do so.

A lack of discernment is never a good thing.  Even when we make a choice to associate with an individual, position, or action which others find controversial, we should be doing so as a result of having done our very best to discern how that will impact our goals for the future.

Perhaps that is happening.  But it's also quite apparent that the perception is that there is a "lack of discernment."  I'd much rather associate with someone who makes a choice I might consider poor, because he carefully considered the options and reached a different opinion as to whether or not it actually was a poor choice, than with someone who does not seem to even consider the outcome of his choices.  The latter might actually, on average, make better choices due to dumb luck.  But the utter unpredictability would give me pause; there's no telling when he might suddenly make a really poor choice.

These are practical concerns for outcomes that could actually happen, not knee-jerk fear reactions.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 05, 2015, 04:37 PM NHFT
These are practical concerns for outcomes that could actually happen, not knee-jerk fear reactions.

Thank you. K neth, when you say "fear fear fear fear", you imply my decisions are based purely on an emotional response when I'm in fact making rational decisions based on whether associating with certain people actually furthers my goals or harms them.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 05, 2015, 04:44 PM NHFT
Come on Dale cut him some slack, he quotes Yoda for goodness sake.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 05, 2015, 04:53 PM NHFT
it's gotta be worth something
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Becky Thatcher on February 05, 2015, 08:09 PM NHFT
Acknowledging that there may be a consequence as a result of some choice, and working to avoid that consequence if it is negative, is not synonymous with fear of that consequence.

Thank you. K neth, when you say "fear fear fear fear", you imply my decisions are based purely on an emotional response when I'm in fact making rational decisions based on whether associating with certain people actually furthers my goals or harms them.

Good points and I completely agree with both of you.  I think having discernment regarding the types of people you choose to let in to your life is a trait of a wise man, not the trait of a fearful one.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on February 05, 2015, 10:08 PM NHFT
I think having discernment regarding the types of people you choose to let in to your life is a trait of a wise man, not the trait of a fearful one.

We also see the inverse at work among some: the more objectionable someone is, the more strongly he's embraced and celebrated. That is not the mark of wisdom, it's the mark of immaturity.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on February 06, 2015, 08:34 AM NHFT
I take ONE day off and see what happens?  I had hoped to be able to make a funny regarding the comment of the smoking pubic hair, but alas the time has passed.

 I hate missed opportunity.  We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 06, 2015, 08:47 AM NHFT
I take ONE day off and see what happens?  I had hoped to be able to make a funny regarding the comment of the smoking pubic hair, but alas the time has passed.

 I hate missed opportunity.  We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

It's the choker Charlie!
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 06, 2015, 09:27 AM NHFT
We also see the inverse at work among some: the more objectionable someone is, the more strongly he's embraced and celebrated. That is not the mark of wisdom, it's the mark of immaturity.

There was this show on MTV called Jackass...
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on February 06, 2015, 09:50 AM NHFT
Would you trade a JP or whatever his name is (cuz we don't know) for Dalebert?

How about FTL's Cantwell for Jason Talley?

Because that is what has been done.

Trade them how?  Dale, was it as simple as this?  If JP didn't exist would you still be happily living in Keene, thinking it was the greatest place in the world?

Is the diaspora of top notch freedom lovers out of Keene bad for the freedom movement?  I doubt the Manchester crowd feels that way.

Whatever it says about my own discernment of character, there were three people I spent a lot of time with and really tried to get to know, during my summer in Keene: Jason Talley, Garret Ean, and Pete Eyre--three of the finest human beings I've had privilege to associate with.  None of them would give up on freedom because Ian promoted some assholes on FTL. 

But one thing I've been having a lot of trouble not being curious about is Cantwell's claim that he got Garret kicked out of the parsonage/KAC.  I'm not the keep-in-touch type, and am completely out of the loop on this.  I can't imagine what madness would cause anyone to discern that Garret was one to be banished? O_o

K neth, when you say "fear fear fear fear", you imply my decisions are based purely on an emotional response when I'm in fact making rational decisions based on whether associating with certain people actually furthers my goals or harms them.

Dale, if someone said that they didn't want to associate with you because it didn't further their goals, that they were just making a rational decision void of any emotion, one might suspect that they were lying to themselves about their homophobia. But I have no way of really knowing what fears grip anyone else in the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night.

My list of the fears I see in this thread indicates that these are fears of my own; that I am projecting these fears into the various posts.  It speaks well of each of you who replied to say your discernment is not based in fear, showing that you engaged in some self-examination.  It's good no one here is going to threaten to sue me for slander, thinking I've accused them of cowardice.

No one has commented on the embracing-the-rapist dynamic.  Still, the replies seem to support my observation.  You champions of discernment are saying the same exact things as the lefty statists in the second group at the Peace Alliance.

Quote from: Malcom Reynolds
Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged
It seems impossible to speak of the path of non-judgement to anyone who has not chosen that path, without sounding holier than thou.  "I am so superior in my morals and look down disapprovingly on you lowly sinners who would dare to judge others."  Maybe it's wrong to ever bring it up in group discussions.  If so, I forgive myself.  The hardest person to stop casting judgement upon is yourself, but once done, it's very liberating.

The impasse between us ridiculous rapist embracers and the righteous discerners seems beyond reconciliation. I should probably stop annoying you and inviting dismissive comments.

Come on Dale cut him some slack, he quotes Yoda for goodness sake.
it's gotta be worth something

Yes, yes! To Russell you listen.

My words all seem worthless.  Perhaps all words are worthless.   But it seems the amusement derived from prompting the message from the pres was worth whatever nonsense I've might have typed.

An important message from the President of the New Hampshire Underground...
(http://politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/IMG_9090-goofy-tongue.gif)

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 06, 2015, 10:33 AM NHFT
You won't get sued for having an opinion here, well until JP registers to play here. You weren't even required to have an introduction like the Shire Society.

The Prez image was from years ago. The style of this place is such that the way to get to know people is by interacting with each other. This is the internet, an open door. We have had our share of, let's say different folks come through here. Some of my best friendships were developed here. I'm starting to get an idea of what you believe in.

"You should do that!" Was a response that Russell often had to people's ideas of what should be done. In that vane, if embracing flawed people is what you think will benefit you or what you see as the direction things should go than "You should do that!"

Jason Talley, Garret Ean, and Pete Eyre are all great activists. Here is the first video I did for the Free State effort shot at our first PorcFest before anyone trusted me. BureauCrash at PorcFest 2005 (http://youtu.be/ntNP7nMWnFE)

Garret Ean was obviously traded for FTL's Cantwell. By traded, I mean when you have a good friend and they are a trusted member of the group you do your activism with and a new person comes along that wants to drive them out... I've noted several instances where the NY Asshole has stated that he wanted these same trusted activists out... Talley was another one.


Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 06, 2015, 11:33 AM NHFT
Trade them how?  Dale, was it as simple as this?  If JP didn't exist would you still be happily living in Keene, thinking it was the greatest place in the world?

No, not that simple. If an isolated incident of poor judgment could drive me away, the Free Keene folks would have lost me a LONG time ago. This is the result of habitual behavior and clear signs that they will not be changing any time soon. I've showed far more effort and patience than is reasonably called for before moving on.

Quote
None of them would give up on freedom because Ian promoted some assholes on FTL.

Giving up on a very specific small clique of people is not "giving up on freedom".

Quote
Dale, if someone said that they didn't want to associate with you because it didn't further their goals, that they were just making a rational decision void of any emotion, one might suspect that they were lying to themselves about their homophobia. But I have no way of really knowing what fears grip anyone else in the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night.

I don't see how analogizing two completely different people makes any point at all. It's like you're appealing to the abandonment of all judgment and rational thought. It's like if I said I throw out food that has mold on it and you came back with "But would you throw out perfectly good food that isn't spoiled?" Uhm... no??? What the heck is your point?

If someone said associating with me wouldn't further their goals, I would examine the evidence they presented for this and try to decide if that was a rational conclusion or if they had some personal bias that was causing them to come to irrational conclusions. And also, because I exercise judgment about the quality of people I associate with, I have faith in my friends to see through such assholery and see this guy for what he really is.

Quote
No one has commented on the embracing-the-rapist dynamic.

K neth, while I'm no longer a practicing Quaker, my support for peaceful solutions to problems remains. I'm not sure exactly what your "embracing the rapist dynamic" entails because most of what you written has amounted to little more than a very long-winded "awe, come on guys. Be nice!" There's just no substance. But I will repeat that I'm not out to promote hate, to punish, or anything like that. I don't support prisons. I don't support the death penalty. I don't want rapists to go to jail and get raped themselves. I just want to do what it takes to prevent more rapes. Does that help you to understand where I'm coming from at all?

Quote
Still, the replies seem to support my observation.  You champions of discernment are saying the same exact things as the lefty statists in the second group at the Peace Alliance.

Unless you can tell us EXACTLY what they said, how can we possibly examine this statement for truth? It's just an vague insult and completely uncalled for in a honest discussion.

Quote
My words all seem worthless.

I would use the adjective "empty", as in devoid of substance.

Quote
Perhaps all words are worthless.

No! All statements are not of equal value just as all people are not of equal character. This is what we've trying to say--good judgment is called for!
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on February 06, 2015, 12:28 PM NHFT
I am open to forgiving people, but I think it is only human that I consider the nature and /or motive of another persons indiscretion before I can forgive them.  Also, has the particular behavior that wronged me or somebody else continued ?  Did the person acknowledge their mistake is something else I consider when deciding whether or not to continue to associate with somebody. 

I also tend to forgive people more readily if I've had a previous relationship with them was a good one...maybe I'm showing my bias there. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Becky Thatcher on February 06, 2015, 12:49 PM NHFT
I also tend to forgive people more readily if I've had a previous relationship with them was a good one...maybe I'm showing my bias there.

Hey ladies, Free Libertarian is getting ready to show his bias!!!  I wanna see, I wanna see!!  >:D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on February 06, 2015, 04:22 PM NHFT
I also tend to forgive people more readily if I've had a previous relationship with them was a good one...maybe I'm showing my bias there.

Hey ladies, Free Libertarian is getting ready to show his bias!!!  I wanna see, I wanna see!!  >:D

(http://homebrewedtheology.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/128782761376408095.jpg)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on February 06, 2015, 04:23 PM NHFT

Here is the first video I did for the Free State effort shot at our first PorcFest before anyone trusted me. BureauCrash at PorcFest 2005 (http://youtu.be/ntNP7nMWnFE)


Jason has stayed true. It's a shame about BureauCrash.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on February 06, 2015, 04:46 PM NHFT
How big is that bias?

Still, the replies seem to support my observation.  You champions of discernment are saying the same exact things as the lefty statists in the second group at the Peace Alliance.

Unless you can tell us EXACTLY what they said, how can we possibly examine this statement for truth? It's just an vague insult and completely uncalled for in a honest discussion.

Dalebert, one of my best friends is a lefty statist and he watches Game of Thrones. Take that as an insult if you will.  I even know a CONSERVATIVE who watches Game of Thrones.  If that's beyond the pale for and honest discussion, discern me away.  Put me on ignore. Wait, do we even have an ignore on this forum?   :-\

What they said was true. Just like what EVERYONE here agrees is true. 
Quote
Having discernment regarding the types of people you choose to let into your life is wise.
said over and over in different ways.

But I intended no insult before.  Peace groups are mostly lefty statists.  My intent in mentioning it was to point out that this isn't a libertarian thing.  It was certainly clumsy though, the way I said it.

I bet I know what I'd see if I went to some neocon forum and tried to discuss non-judgement.  And it would be the same thing as at a Mises circle.  Or a bible study group.

People would be annoyed by me.  People would be dismissive of what I said.  And no matter how much I stressed that it's good to avoid certain people, I'd be told over and over how sensible it is to discern which people should be shunned, disassociated, and unwelcome, as if I'd suggested they should invite a serial rapist to tea with their mother.  The dynamic is fascinating.

Words suck.  They suck all the more because they're such an amazingly useful tool, and we can learn so much from them.  It traps people in a world of words and makes seeing what is beyond words all the more difficult. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 06, 2015, 11:15 PM NHFT
Thanks for the wise words in this thread, K neth.

Jason Talley left NH because of Jason Talley.  Cantwell was not living here at that time.
Dalebert left Keene because of Dalebert.  JP was not active here at that time.

Garret has not been run off by Cantwell - he was here at the KAC tonight and multiple times this week.

As stated previously, there's plenty of discerning going on in Keene.  Some people don't like Chris, others don't like Garret, others don't like JP, some don't like me.  Some of the reasons for the disliking are good, others are petty.  Whatever.  That's just people.  They don't all get along.

Thanks for all of your concern about what's happening here.  I'd like to remind you that you are not actively involved in the community here and are merely passing judgement without experience beyond what limited information you receive from the outside-looking-in.

We've got this handled.  Please return to more productive matters.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on February 07, 2015, 12:21 AM NHFT
http://knappster.blogspot.com/2015/02/celebritarian-pathos-curious-case-of.html
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 07, 2015, 07:35 AM NHFT
Jason Talley withdrew being a blogger at Freekeene because of Ian's support of FTL's Cantwell. The disruptions at the KAC where, as we've seen here before, because nothing makes the violence promoters angrier than "Pacifists". The angry right libertarian, blamed Talley for calling in the JTTF which he also said ultimately led to Rich Paul's arrest. I bet they came into the situation because of the NYers angry, violent rhetoric. So heads up to people that don't want to be part of that whole thing.  ;D

FTLs Cantwell expressed it was his goal to run off Garret and people like him, meaning peaceful, left leaning libertarians. Ian said that the "edgy one" had brought in a larger following than he had seen in a long time, thus Ian supported him. Ironcally one of the people at least, Josie Wales, is now publicly condemning FTLs Cantwell.

One of the goals is to reach new audiences, such as the Men's Rights movement. The problem lays in if angry rhetoric is used to aggitate people that already have a grudge, ugly behavior is the likely result.

Ian is right that I am on the outside looking in. And like many others, I have been dissuaded from participating by what I see. Although I have had many conversations with principles directly involved.

One of the best "scenes" we experienced were parties in Marlboro, that house is being sold, that activist is gone. I think it is productive to give feedback. It is productive to commiserate what has been lost and find out that many others feel similar.

As for productivity, I'll get back to the work I'm doing for a national level advocacy group. Later on I'll be back on here discussing what others seem like they want to talk about.

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 07, 2015, 05:12 PM NHFT
How big is that bias?

Words suck.  They suck all the more because they're such an amazingly useful tool, and we can learn so much from them.  It traps people in a world of words and makes seeing what is beyond words all the more difficult.

 ;D on the first.
And ditto on the second. These days I am beginning to refer to myself as a Subjectivist. The subjective parts of life are some of the best... it is also why as you say "Words suck." Because it depends on the interpretation of the reader. Many words meanings have been twisted to the point you can't even use them anymore, without being misunderstood.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Becky Thatcher on February 07, 2015, 05:24 PM NHFT
http://knappster.blogspot.com/2015/02/celebritarian-pathos-curious-case-of.html

Quote
Another possibility is that he's a graduate student in gender studies at City University of New York, working undercover to collect data for his doctoral thesis (and possible Salon book of the month contender): "Gullible is Written on the Ceiling: How to Build a Cult Following of White Cisgender Male Libertarians and Get Them to Believe Anything."
Read more at http://knappster.blogspot.com/2015/02/celebritarian-pathos-curious-case-of.html#vHqFJWPLFPGUKTkd.99

 ;D 8)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 07, 2015, 05:32 PM NHFT
http://knappster.blogspot.com/2015/02/celebritarian-pathos-curious-case-of.html

Interesting back and forth in the comments...

Referring to FTL's Cantwell playing the role of "click bait"

Jim Jesus said to Thomas L. Knapp • 6 hours ago
Quote
That's what he says he does on Free Talk Live.

Thomas L. Knapp
Quote
... I see New Hampshire Underground is talking about it, and so forth.

justintempler to Thomas L. Knapp • 2 hours ago
Quote
Yes Chris makes great click bait, I had never heard of MK Lords before her post that triggered Cantwell, which he then made even worse when he felt the need to lie, block, and delete.

I liked MK Lords blog (http://attackthesystem.com/2015/01/02/this-bitch-wrote-a-blog-post-criticizing-libertarians-and-youll-never-guess-what-happened-next/) and will be back for more.

Funny thing is FTL's "Not a monster" Cantwell apparently took down his YouTube video from MK Lords call in on Free Talk Live. He had gone to the trouble of beeping out here name so as to not allow her to get the benefit, because hey that's the not so funny comedians schtick.   ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 08, 2015, 09:14 AM NHFT
Dalebert left Keene because of Dalebert.

I physically left Keene quite some time ago but I didn't withdraw moral support from Free Keene until fairly recently. I believe the latter is the leaving that folks are referring to.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 08, 2015, 04:26 PM NHFT
oh man I don't even know what game of thrones is ...... so what is my bias now? :)

I mostly agree with you Kneth and I completely agree with my buddies Dale, Tom, KB, Solar Powered Bob, and such. :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 08, 2015, 04:54 PM NHFT
Thanks for all of your concern about what's happening here.  I'd like to remind you that you are not actively involved in the community here and are merely passing judgement without experience beyond what limited information you receive from the outside-looking-in.

We've got this handled.  Please return to more productive matters.
were you talking to Kneth there?
Is it possible some activism is happening in Keene, and you don't know about it?

One of my goals as an activist was to change people's minds about how they should behave and how they view the government.
To me it was very important how outsiders where viewing us and our behavior.

When you say you have it handled .... does that mean that we are viewing things wrong or that you are happy with how your activism is being viewed?

I obviously don't know most of what is going on. But I am interested, since so many people involved are my friends.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 08, 2015, 04:55 PM NHFT
btw I love the things I have found so far on the Attack the State site. :)
I also am loving that funny article about Celebritarians.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 08, 2015, 09:03 PM NHFT
Thanks for all of your concern about what's happening here.  I'd like to remind you that you are not actively involved in the community here and are merely passing judgement without experience beyond what limited information you receive from the outside-looking-in.

We've got this handled.  Please return to more productive matters.
were you talking to Kneth there?
Is it possible some activism is happening in Keene, and you don't know about it?

One of my goals as an activist was to change people's minds about how they should behave and how they view the government.
To me it was very important how outsiders where viewing us and our behavior.

When you say you have it handled .... does that mean that we are viewing things wrong or that you are happy with how your activism is being viewed?

I obviously don't know most of what is going on. But I am interested, since so many people involved are my friends.

No, the comments were for those who have advice for a community of which they have to not be a part.  We don't discern enough, exclude enough, etc etc.  I'm tired of it.  I don't require perfection of my friends and associates, but if they do something that's wrong, I'm happy to hash it out with the parties involved. 

The issue with Dale and JP did not get mediated because Dale was not interested in it.  JP had said he was willing to mediate.  Obviously Dale is not obligated to mediate and has no real reason to do so, as he does not live in the community here.

There are some issues with JP and Cantwell.  Despite the critics, the community here continues to attract new movers and we have a good community of folks here, who don't all get along, and that's OK.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 08, 2015, 09:32 PM NHFT
Jason Talley withdrew being a blogger at Freekeene because of Ian's support of FTL's Cantwell.

Talley also re-joined the Free Keene blog later.  Guess he got over it.  Note, Cantwell is not a blogger at Free Keene, and has not been invited to be.

Quote
FTLs Cantwell expressed it was his goal to run off Garret and people like him, meaning peaceful, left leaning libertarians. Ian said that the "edgy one" had brought in a larger following than he had seen in a long time, thus Ian supported him. Ironcally one of the people at least, Josie Wales, is now publicly condemning FTLs Cantwell.

Cantwell did not run off Garret.  Garret left the community because he was no longer allowed to stay at the KAC due to a change in policy.  He also did not like that JP was approved for membership.  (Cantwell was rejected, by the way.)

Quote
One of the goals is to reach new audiences, such as the Men's Rights movement. The problem lays in if angry rhetoric is used to aggitate people that already have a grudge, ugly behavior is the likely result.

Whose goals?  Not mine.   Cantwell is on FTL because he's got a great sense of humor and is good on the radio.  We are doing a show, and the more entertaining, the better.  Amazingly, we lost zero AMPlifiers over the addition of Cantwell, and I expected SOME fallout, but nope!

Quote
Ian is right that I am on the outside looking in. And like many others, I have been dissuaded from participating by what I see. Although I have had many conversations with principles directly involved.

It's true - there are many others who have given up on the Keene community because someone came into it that they don't like.  It's certainly within their rights to walk away without trying to make it better from the inside, and within their rights to complain about it forever after.  For the rest of us doing our best to make this work, it's not helping.

Some people are forgiving and understanding of faults, others not.  Nothing new here. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 08, 2015, 09:46 PM NHFT
Many people have had some negative experience with someone and have never returned to the KAC as a result, rather than asking to mediate and working towards solving whatever the issues are.

Not really a surprise in a movement with people who have poor skills relating with other people.

 ::)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 08, 2015, 11:04 PM NHFT
Ian you should run for office, oh wait you did. I concede, you have an answer for everything. Prevaricating and obfuscation are the reasons I jumped you in this thread. You're doing it less. Is not lying the same as telling the truth?

Of course wearing all those hats means people should recognize the conflicts of interest. Oh wait some do, and call you on it. In fact more do all the time.

I was told recently that it was just entertainment, thanks for confirming that. I mean everyone gets to play a role. I am merely playing one here as well. I just wonder if you'll be able to control the brown shirt. I can't educate how to judge character. Watch as Mark reins FTL's Cantwell in and Ian appears to forget their own tagline is "Talk Radio You Control" Dear Caller: You Lose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjbyMV6bg9M)

I started off expressing my dismay that ya'll were hanging with the guy that killed Bin Laden. I could say that you sent a known liar to a friend, but I shouldn't because hey it's all about forgivmess.  I guess we'll have to wait to see what other nuts fall out of the tree of liberty.


Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 09, 2015, 12:46 AM NHFT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbZIFZm204E
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 09, 2015, 11:31 AM NHFT
No, the comments were for those who have advice for a community of which they have to not be a part.  We don't discern enough, exclude enough, etc etc.  I'm tired of it.  I don't require perfection of my friends and associates, but if they do something that's wrong, I'm happy to hash it out with the parties involved. 

gotcha
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 09, 2015, 01:33 PM NHFT
Tom, what do you mean I sent a known liar to a friend?  Dale publicly advertised his house was available for rent.  I knew that JP is a clean tenant and had not at that time heard any issues with him owing people money.  (Those have raised their head within the last week or so.)

Can you be very clear on what you think I'm obfuscating/prevaricating?  I'm here to clarify matters, because I respect you guys and appreciate the work you have done.  So, please - let's clear up whatever's muddy. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 09, 2015, 06:04 PM NHFT
I didn't say anything about how clean a tenant or if he owed money.

obfuscating/prevaricating

Like some kind of mobius strip.

Luckily, others have expressed similar observations to me.

I conceded, others can spend the mental energy to figure out what motivates the behavior.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on February 09, 2015, 07:43 PM NHFT

Watch as Mark reins FTL's Cantwell in and Ian appears to forget their own tagline is "Talk Radio You Control" Dear Caller: You Lose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjbyMV6bg9M)


Dammit, Tom, you caused me to click on a CC video!

But since I had already clicked, I let it play. Wow, what an egotistical, smug, self-ingratiating sociopathic POS he is.

I already knew that, which is why I stopped letting him into my life a long time ago.



No, the comments were for those who have advice for a community of which they have to not be a part.


I've re-read this several times, and I still have no idea how to parse what you're trying to say.



We are doing a show, and the more entertaining, the better.


Better for what?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 09, 2015, 08:47 PM NHFT
I didn't say anything about how clean a tenant or if he owed money.

obfuscating/prevaricating

Like some kind of mobius strip.

Luckily, others have expressed similar observations to me.

I conceded, others can spend the mental energy to figure out what motivates the behavior.

Tom, I asked two clear questions and you didn't answer either.  Obfuscate much?   ::)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on February 11, 2015, 06:41 PM NHFT
No, the comments were for those who have advice for a community of which they have to not be a part.

Which community?  The liberty community?  I think the folks offering advice are all part of that community.  As are you.

We don't discern enough, exclude enough, etc etc.  I'm tired of it.  I don't require perfection of my friends and associates, but if they do something that's wrong, I'm happy to hash it out with the parties involved.

It's not an issue of perfection.  Humans are imperfect, and always will be.  But you, I, folks here, and many other all tell the general population that liberty can work because enough folks will be responsible, and that responsibility will be enough to deal with those who would cause trouble, without the coercive State to do that.  Part of that means speaking up when you know someone has a history of causing harm, so others can avoid being harmed.  That doesn't mean you need to have weekly witch-hunts.  But it does mean that, if we are going to lead by example and show folks that they can have a peaceful, functional society, without a coercive State to control everyone, we have to demonstrate how that works.

So, as I've said before, we need discernment.  We - all of us, 'cause I'm not picking on you - need to demonstrate how that works.  That does not mean we should never associate with someone who has faults, but it does mean that we should be acknowledging those faults, and explaining how we believe that those faults don't outweigh the contributions this individual has to offer, rather than acting in a way that makes it appear that we are keeping our heads in the sand and not even attempting to discern what faults may or may not exist.

Who would you rather work with: someone who has a bunch of ladders, and tells you that one of them is old and can't handle much weight (he threw out the other old ones), but he doesn't know which, or someone who has several such ladders, but can tell you which ones they are, so you don't use them for heavy lifting?  I'd rather work with the second, who actually engages in less exclusion of faulty ladders, but more discernment as to which ones need a little extra care when used.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 11, 2015, 06:53 PM NHFT
The Keene community.  That's what this thread is about.  It's about people who don't live here and don't visit here telling us we're doing it wrong.

We in Keene already knew JP has said many questionable things.  That's not news to activists here - he's already a controversial character around here because of that.  Some people have excommunicated him others proceed with caution.  I'm in the latter group.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 11, 2015, 08:51 PM NHFT
First went to Keene twenty years ago. Our son was born in Keene. In the fair weather we go to Keene a couple of times a week. Our activism mostly revolved around Keene.

If his first post had been the second paragraph of the post above I wouldn't have had anything to go off on. Although Ian decided to come onto the thread and take ownership of the lack of discernment and spin it. Too clever by half. It is a repeating pattern I have observed. Others have told me of similar observations.


Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 11, 2015, 09:02 PM NHFT
Funny article from MK Lords...
Liberty’s Lady of Stalingrad (https://mklords.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/libertys-lady-of-stalingrad/)

Quote
Most recently, my biggest fan Chris Cantwell tried to bully the hosts of popular libertarian radio show Free Talk Live into not saying my name when I called in to challenge his most recent article of filth. Chris makes his living writing half researched articles with barely baked premises and harassing meter maids for liberty....

Don't miss the video Can't Well-Don't Say Her Name
http://youtu.be/CvCrbiA-n0s

The women of the movement are likely to be the ones to save it from itself.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 11, 2015, 11:37 PM NHFT
MK Lords and Chris Cantwell are both my friends.   ::)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 12, 2015, 10:23 AM NHFT
why is Chris Cantwell your friend?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on February 12, 2015, 10:28 AM NHFT
The Keene community.  That's what this thread is about.  It's about people who don't live here and don't visit here telling us we're doing it wrong.

Is it?

Is that the only community involved?  Most folks are members of a number of different communities.

It seems to me that folks would not really be concerned if it were not for the fact that they, you, and many others are all part of the liberty community.

We in Keene already knew JP has said many questionable things.  That's not news to activists here - he's already a controversial character around here because of that.  Some people have excommunicated him others proceed with caution.  I'm in the latter group.

I don't doubt that you do, and that you actually make such decisions.  But that's not how it appears.  The appearance is that there is unabashed support.  It appears that you're telling everyone outside a particular geopolitical entity that these folks are great - that the ladders are all perfect.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on February 12, 2015, 11:57 AM NHFT
Whenever I run into a moral dilemma, I often ask myself "what would Graffy do" ?   

That's not the same as saying what does Graffy's doo look like.  To my knowledge his shit doesn't stink, a faint odor of seaweed and mollusk maybe, but it doesn't stink.  The rest of us, well we all probably smell a little at least.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 12, 2015, 06:59 PM NHFT
that has always led to murky answers for me
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 13, 2015, 04:42 PM NHFT
But that's not how it appears.  The appearance is that there is unabashed support.  It appears that you're telling everyone outside a particular geopolitical entity that these folks are great - that the ladders are all perfect.

Why does it appear that way to you?  What can you point to that is painting such a picture?  Is it because of a lack of drama?  Usually people consider that a good thing.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 13, 2015, 04:43 PM NHFT
why is Chris Cantwell your friend?

I find him to be likable and a good activist.  We get along well and I enjoy his company.  He's not a monster, as many would have you believe. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 13, 2015, 04:52 PM NHFT
The Keene community.  That's what this thread is about.  It's about people who don't live here and don't visit here telling us we're doing it wrong.

Is it?

Is that the only community involved?  Most folks are members of a number of different communities.

It seems to me that folks would not really be concerned if it were not for the fact that they, you, and many others are all part of the liberty community.

The community that matters most to me is the Keene-area community.  Less-so, the rest of NH, less-than-that, the rest of the world.  People are going to have all kinds of uninformed opinions about the activism and activists here.  That's part-and-parcel with being on-the-map with our activism here.

So, to answer your question, if someone's not involved in Keene and doesn't care enough to get involved, then my concern for their critique is very small.  I'm only spending so much time on this thread because I respect many of the people here - they've earned that respect by being solid activists in the past.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 13, 2015, 04:55 PM NHFT
If seeing some of the internal drama and conflict in Keene would help paint a more accurate picture for you, Maineshark, I can get you into a facebook group that has a good share of it.  You'll see pretty clearly that people in Keene are discerning all the time on various matters!     :glasses1:
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on February 14, 2015, 07:42 PM NHFT
But that's not how it appears.  The appearance is that there is unabashed support.  It appears that you're telling everyone outside a particular geopolitical entity that these folks are great - that the ladders are all perfect.
Why does it appear that way to you?  What can you point to that is painting such a picture?  Is it because of a lack of drama?  Usually people consider that a good thing.

Lack of drama is a good thing.  But it does not appear that there is a lack of drama.  It appears that there is an overabundance of drama.

Of course, "this guy has some issues, and here's how he's working to better himself so they will be less of a problem" is not drama.  It's support for betterment, and a warning about the potential problems (which, in turn, avoids drama by helping others to avoid getting mired in his problems), all in one.

As I said earlier, it's no an issue of shunning/excluding folks and causing drama; it's just an issue of not having the appearance of whitewashing folks' flaws.  "I have these concerns about this guy, but here's some great activism he does that makes me think he's worth having around" at least shows that you thought about the individual as a whole person, not just an activist, looked at the pros and cons, and decided that the individual's activism was worth whatever difficulties he might also pose.  When it's just a blanket endorsement of someone as a super-activist, the appearance is that you didn't bother to consider anything else about that individual.

The community that matters most to me is the Keene-area community.  Less-so, the rest of NH, less-than-that, the rest of the world.  People are going to have all kinds of uninformed opinions about the activism and activists here.  That's part-and-parcel with being on-the-map with our activism here.

So, to answer your question, if someone's not involved in Keene and doesn't care enough to get involved, then my concern for their critique is very small.  I'm only spending so much time on this thread because I respect many of the people here - they've earned that respect by being solid activists in the past.

Interesting.  I guess many of us care less about State-defined geopolitical boundaries than that.

If seeing some of the internal drama and conflict in Keene would help paint a more accurate picture for you, Maineshark, I can get you into a facebook group that has a good share of it.  You'll see pretty clearly that people in Keene are discerning all the time on various matters!     :glasses1:

I don't do FB.  And I avoid drama and conflict, when possible.  So that does not hold much interest for me.  Lack of discernment seems to be an issue for a lot of folks in the Keene area, though.  Even the anti-liberty folks would do better if they discerned a bit more; their lack of discernment is even more extreme than anything you've been accused of (so far as I know, no one with whom you've chosen to associate has hospitalized anyone, for just example).
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 15, 2015, 03:28 PM NHFT
Thanks for clearing up where you're coming from.  Though, where is the alleged whitewashing?  I've made it clear all along that JP has had issues.  Everyone knows Cantwell has issues with people.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 15, 2015, 04:23 PM NHFT
I've made it clear all along that JP has had issues.

No one bothered to tell me he threatened to sue the KAC over membership rejection. That one fact would have saved me a LOT of trouble and stress. That no one thought that was relevant boggles my mind.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 15, 2015, 11:09 PM NHFT
where would you "sue" the KAC?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 16, 2015, 06:31 PM NHFT
I've made it clear all along that JP has had issues.

No one bothered to tell me he threatened to sue the KAC over membership rejection. That one fact would have saved me a LOT of trouble and stress. That no one thought that was relevant boggles my mind.

That was a couple of years back.  He since showed progress and many forgave him. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 17, 2015, 10:51 PM NHFT
No one bothered to tell me he threatened to sue the KAC over membership rejection. That one fact would have saved me a LOT of trouble and stress. That no one thought that was relevant boggles my mind.

That was a couple of years back.  He since showed progress and many forgave him.

Right. In your judgment everything was fine, and yet he again threatened a frivolous suit over something trivial. Read the title of the thread again. This is exactly the point. You vouching for someone right now would have zero value to me, actually maybe negative value.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 18, 2015, 12:47 PM NHFT
When did I vouch for JP? 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 19, 2015, 01:41 PM NHFT
When did I vouch for JP?

When did I say that you vouched for him?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 19, 2015, 02:34 PM NHFT
 :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
 ::lloyds::
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 19, 2015, 03:05 PM NHFT
Good to know - the post you made previously could be interpreted as suggesting that I did vouch for him. 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on February 19, 2015, 03:36 PM NHFT
Good to know - the post you made previously could be interpreted as suggesting that I did vouch for him.

Only because you're obfuscating. The post only points out what a poor judge of character you appear to be based on the evidence.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 19, 2015, 04:46 PM NHFT
Asking for clarification is by definition the opposite of obfuscating. 

 :P
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 19, 2015, 04:52 PM NHFT
(http://politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/Uncle-Ian.jpg)
Ian Bernard" Freeman host Free Talk Live
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 19, 2015, 05:00 PM NHFT
things are becoming clearer
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on February 19, 2015, 05:05 PM NHFT
Oh zing!  Ian is a dictator!  That's much more creative than simply answering my question from earlier by giving a concrete example of my alleged obfuscating. 

Backing up baseless assertions with insults shows that we've reached the end of this conversation.  I've answered the several questions posed to me here and have indicated a willingness to further clarify anything that has come off as obtuse and am now being insulted now for my efforts.

I'm unsubscribing from this thread.  Can't say I didn't try.

If anyone really cares to have a conversation rather than just complaining to the peanut gallery here, you can find me in the usual places, plus on-air pretty much nightly 7-10pm Eastern on http://freetalklive.com.  There you can call me out for being a bad, bad man in front of a much larger audience.  Please call 855-450-FREE and let's chat.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 19, 2015, 05:12 PM NHFT
(http://politicalgraffiti.com/nhfree/images/Uncle-Ian.jpg)
I don't see this image
talk about secret
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 19, 2015, 05:48 PM NHFT
Hey, all publicity is a good thing according to Ian and his buddy Can't Well. If you don't support their activities you can call the show and, well, support the show!

So just to sum things up.

Ian is the kind of "friend" that sends danger to his friends. Feels he should take no responsibility to consider the possible danger to his friends.

People that have known him for a while have referred to him as manipulative, unresponsive to constructive criticism (well I guess this thread shows him to be "responsive" in an obfuscating and prevaricating manner  ;D ). Some of the opinions have been more critical than I have been here.

Is anyone above reproach? Is he such a big fish in the little pond that others must bend to his needs?

Some of my energy in this matter has been driven by watching him and his apologists attack people with reasonable criticisms. The "what do you mean?" nonsense while most reasonable people can see through the behavior. The people that have been turned off and in some cases driven away. I saw similar behavior in the nonprofit and political world in D.C. where some people's own personal kingdom became more important than the issues and cause they claimed to represent.

I personally am shunning him and his repeated behavior. I know that doesn't mean much. Well except to my own sense of right and wrong.


Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Soundwave on February 21, 2015, 11:05 AM NHFT
I agree that laws are often a problem.

My position is not violating the NAP is the minimum requirement to keep from killing each other. It is not enough to build a cohesive community.

I think this is a fundamental problem that I think eludes many libertarians. Especially the ones that cherry pick the principles to suit their own agendas.


This. So much of this. I just said it last night in fact - the NAP is where the conversation starts, Chapter One.

I can't speak for others but I'm interested in building something better, not fighting the status quo. Technology may finally allow us to do that - look at Uber - they'll destroy taxis. Some will try and put up a fight but people have already tasted what could be and it's a service that is so awesome to so many people, that it's not going anywhere.

I want to contribute to building a community that is so awesome people are envious and want to be like "that guy over there". And you don't do that by surrounding yourself with liars and nefarious characters. Successful, productive, happy people - these are the ones who get things done. I don't see much of that in Keene anymore.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Becky Thatcher on February 21, 2015, 07:57 PM NHFT
I want to contribute to building a community that is so awesome people are envious and want to be like "that guy over there". And you don't do that by surrounding yourself with liars and nefarious characters. Successful, productive, happy people - these are the ones who get things done. I don't see much of that in Keene anymore.

 :clap:  I agree with you completely.  I would much rather surround myself with people like you, who make the world (or at least our small part of it) a better place.   



Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 21, 2015, 10:44 PM NHFT
hmmm building stuff?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 20, 2015, 11:10 PM NHFT
Why Liberty Attracts Scumbags (http://thedesertlynx.com/2015/06/17/why-liberty-attracts-scumbags/)
JOËL VALENZUELA
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on June 21, 2015, 08:33 AM NHFT
I don't agree with the Valenzuela Article.

...and it will be at least a week before I have time to discus it here.

I also disagree with what Robrin said in response to the Valenzuela Article.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 21, 2015, 11:06 AM NHFT
I don't agree with the Valenzuela Article.

...and it will be at least a week before I have time to discus it here.

I also disagree with what Robrin said in response to the Valenzuela Article.

Damn, what a tease!
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on June 21, 2015, 12:55 PM NHFT
NH/FSP/"The Liberty Movement"/etc., do tend to attract people who are looking to escape "oppression" that is really just the consequences of their own poor choices. Too many expect to do as they wish, and that others will help them out in the name of solidarity.

The last few days there have been numerous pleas on Facebook from people who have no ride, no money, no tent, and who made no plans at all, but now they desperately need to attend PorcFest.

I'm more than willing to help people who have done their best only to have some misfortune hit them. As for those who've made no efforts to take care of themselves, I'd really rather they just stay where they are and whine about how no one in the liberty movement will help them.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: WithoutAPaddle on June 21, 2015, 03:03 PM NHFT
NH/FSP/"The Liberty Movement"/etc., do tend to attract people who are looking to escape "oppression" that is really just the consequences of their own poor choices. Too many expect to do as they wish, and that others will help them out in the name of solidarity.

The last few days there have been numerous pleas on Facebook from people who have no ride, no money, no tent, and who made no plans at all, but now they desperately need to attend PorcFest.

I'm more than willing to help people who have done their best only to have some misfortune hit them. As for those who've made no efforts to take care of themselves, I'd really rather they just stay where they are and whine about how no one in the liberty movement will help them.

ISIS takes such people in and motivates and empowers them...
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 21, 2015, 03:56 PM NHFT
NH/FSP/"The Liberty Movement"/etc., do tend to attract people who are looking to escape "oppression" that is really just the consequences of their own poor choices. Too many expect to do as they wish, and that others will help them out in the name of solidarity.

The last few days there have been numerous pleas on Facebook from people who have no ride, no money, no tent, and who made no plans at all, but now they desperately need to attend PorcFest.

I'm more than willing to help people who have done their best only to have some misfortune hit them. As for those who've made no efforts to take care of themselves, I'd really rather they just stay where they are and whine about how no one in the liberty movement will help them.

ISIS takes such people in and motivates and empowers them...

The ISIS model... that should make for good press!  ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 21, 2015, 05:36 PM NHFT
Joking aside, the key I think to motivating and empowering the lost soul works for them because they have a structure for harsh discipline.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 29, 2015, 07:55 PM NHFT
JOËL VALENZUELA's blog got picked up by the lefties...
Miscellany Blue - NH Politics

Free Stater exposes ‘seedy underbelly’ of liberty movement: ‘We attract the dregs of society’ (http://miscellanyblue.com/post/122281062787)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on June 30, 2015, 07:11 AM NHFT

I am reminded of a bumper stickerish saying from the 70s that went something like this...Ass, gas or grass, nobody rides for free. 

Totally off topic and as bonus, I will bring up two other ones I liked about reserving the right to arm bears and nuking gay whales for Jesus.  ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on June 30, 2015, 08:02 AM NHFT
JOËL VALENZUELA's blog got picked up by the lefties...
Miscellany Blue - NH Politics

Free Stater exposes ‘seedy underbelly’ of liberty movement: ‘We attract the dregs of society’ (http://miscellanyblue.com/post/122281062787)

Julie Borowski complimented him on his article which she had read. She gave him kudos for calling people out within the movement. It was actually one of her points in the presentation. LOTS of people follow Julie and will discover us through her.

http://julieborowski.com/my-experience-at-porcfest/

What's funny to me is while you are making a case founded in common sense and good judgment, there is another more extremist element arguing for us to filter out all the impure, i.e. anyone who falls short of full-on macho-flash anarchist. It's actually a very intolerant attitude, particularly considering that there are very few of us who weren't statists to some degree or another at some point and we were persuaded toward liberty, and it wasn't so we could join the cool kids group. It's because we were already hanging out with the cool kids.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: MaineShark on June 30, 2015, 09:59 AM NHFT
What's funny to me is while you are making a case founded in common sense and good judgment, there is another more extremist element arguing for us to filter out all the impure, i.e. anyone who falls short of full-on macho-flash anarchist. It's actually a very intolerant attitude, particularly considering that there are very few of us who weren't statists to some degree or another at some point and we were persuaded toward liberty, and it wasn't so we could join the cool kids group. It's because we were already hanging out with the cool kids.

And, oddly enough, those few of us who actually have been consistent anarchists our whole lives... aren't the ones calling for witch-hunts.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 30, 2015, 10:44 AM NHFT
when do we start the witch hunts?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on June 30, 2015, 03:05 PM NHFT

Ian is the kind of "friend" that sends danger to his friends. Feels he should take no responsibility to consider the possible danger to his friends.
...
I personally am shunning him and his repeated behavior. I know that doesn't mean much. Well except to my own sense of right and wrong.


I'm friends with some Friends and the Friends do shunning.  It seems like a useful tactic for living right, but in practice I wonder how well it works out.  Do I walk out of the room when the shameful walks in, or turn my back to him, like they do to the dishonored in the Klingon High Council?  It seems like I might just miss some good parties with no good result.

Tom, what actions have you taken or not taken in your shunning of Ian these few months?

How has it worked out?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on June 30, 2015, 04:18 PM NHFT
when do we start the witch hunts?


You need to buy a hunting license first.   ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Becky Thatcher on June 30, 2015, 04:30 PM NHFT
when do we start the witch hunts?


You need to buy a hunting license first.   ;D

And get a fire permit.  There is always a bonfire involved in any self-respecting witch hunt.   :campfire:
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on June 30, 2015, 07:28 PM NHFT

Ian is the kind of "friend" that sends danger to his friends. Feels he should take no responsibility to consider the possible danger to his friends.
...
I personally am shunning him and his repeated behavior. I know that doesn't mean much. Well except to my own sense of right and wrong.


I'm friends with some Friends and the Friends do shunning.  It seems like a useful tactic for living right, but in practice I wonder how well it works out.  Do I walk out of the room when the shameful walks in, or turn my back to him, like they do to the dishonored in the Klingon High Council?  It seems like I might just miss some good parties with no good result.

Tom, what actions have you taken or not taken in your shunning of Ian these few months?

How has it worked out?

I have not wanted to continue any animosity. I bumped into Ian at Porcfest and said a polite hello. Once I figure someone out I can't un-know what I know.

I have had multiple people confide in me of their feelings. I usually relax on these kind of issues when I see that others recognize the problem.

It's not really about Ian or Cantwell or JP or... it's a lack of wisdom or people not recognizing that motives matter. They matter a lot. I can forgive mistakes that people make if their motives are good.

I don't expect to change the world by not involving me and mine with what I don't have faith in. But, I do affect my world and sometimes I've seen that being brave enough to say what you feel helps others figure out how they feel.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on July 01, 2015, 12:10 AM NHFT
JOËL VALENZUELA's blog got picked up by the lefties...
Miscellany Blue - NH Politics

Free Stater exposes ‘seedy underbelly’ of liberty movement: ‘We attract the dregs of society’ (http://miscellanyblue.com/post/122281062787)

Or as Pat K says, "Sometimes you just get lucky!"
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: eglove on July 01, 2015, 06:33 PM NHFT
JOËL VALENZUELA's blog got picked up by the lefties...
Miscellany Blue - NH Politics

Free Stater exposes ‘seedy underbelly’ of liberty movement: ‘We attract the dregs of society’ (http://miscellanyblue.com/post/122281062787)

Valenzuela's article was fantastic though. It's true that some scumbags are welcome, and publically try to represent libertarianism and get no repercussion.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on July 14, 2015, 05:57 AM NHFT
eglove is featured by Garrett Ean in this episode of AKPF regarding Cant(do)well.

AKPF #1: Cultwell
https://youtu.be/lD9Glg6CtEk

Ethan and Garrett reference a blog post that Ethan wrote (https://ethanglover.biz/politics/chris-cantwell/)
An Epic Tale of King Baby (http://An Epic Tale of King Baby)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: dalebert on September 20, 2015, 09:19 PM NHFT
https://www.facebook.com/local.scrutinizer/posts/1723593114531350?comment_id=1723671954523466
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: eglove on September 21, 2015, 02:43 AM NHFT
https://www.facebook.com/local.scrutinizer/posts/1723593114531350?comment_id=1723671954523466

It's true Ian doesn't have as much support as he thinks. His obsessive push towards bad software like Slack just because he doesn't like FB isn't going so well. (7 people is considered victory?) But it doesn't take away from the fact that he acts like a sociopath. Nice guy? Sure. Say hello and ask what's up.

But when you get into this weird KAC life, it's like the vampires that live in nests from True Blood. (Sorry for the reference.) That group feeds off of one another, drive drama to the extreme, and because it's the "mediaites" it drives people away. How many times have you seen people say they won't move to NH or no longer support the FSP because of KAC drama being publicized on the biggest, most public places like the FTL fb page (and the freaking show itself?)

I feel like at least 50% of what Ian does requires damage control. And considering that aside from the show, he's really not doing as much as he thinks, it's not worth it at all.

EDIT: Vampire nests according to the True Blood Wiki (http://trueblood.wikia.com/wiki/Nest): "Nests are described (by Bill in the first season) as causing the vampires living in them to become more cruel. Pam implies this is linked to their drinking each other's blood and assuming the personality traits of the strongest, and usually cruelest, member."
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on September 21, 2015, 08:53 AM NHFT
And considering that aside from the show, he's really not doing as much as he thinks, it's not worth it at all.

The couch controversy was definitely worth it, even if I'm not. :O)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on September 21, 2015, 10:08 AM NHFT

Sometimes we can not like a person and that skews our perception of the legitimacy / efficacy of some of their actions.  I try to keep this in mind when making assessments. 

For the record, I like everybody though.   ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 21, 2015, 10:51 AM NHFT
I just read on a comment on a free keene blog post that Ian has put Cantrell off the show. I don't know how long ago this was, but it makes sense.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on September 21, 2015, 08:28 PM NHFT
And the spinning continues...

From Facebook
Quote
Dalebert Vincent
Is it not a concern at all that it took Mark threatening to quit to get Ian to (very reluctantly) unpeel his lips from around Cantwell's dick?

Ian Freeman
Actually, Mark did not threaten to quit. He called out Cantwell and Cantwell said stuff that I could not ignore.

Cantwell posted his communication with Ian
Quote
Ian Freeman, [19.09.15 01:03]
He suggested to me he’s considering quitting again. That’s when I told him to talk to you. Instead, he’s doing this
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on September 21, 2015, 11:52 PM NHFT
I like Ian for his sense of showmanship, but I think he picks really stupid battles.

I like Mark for his efforts to moderate the craziness.

As I've said before, if I was taking a healthy whiz and CC fell down in front of me engulfed in flames, I would turn around and piss the other way. I think he's a huge detriment, to the point of actually being an enemy of the liberty movement, instead of the "great liberty activist" that Ian calls him.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on September 22, 2015, 04:40 PM NHFT
As I've said before, if I was taking a healthy whiz and CC fell down in front of me engulfed in flames, I would turn around and piss the other way.

Spoken like a gulag guard, with vast experience in looking the other way when someone is suffering.

I think he's a huge detriment,...

But maybe he'd piss on me no matter what?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on November 03, 2015, 08:46 AM NHFT
I guess you can either see it as perseverance or insanity.

We're all a little extra weirder than normal. Maybe it's kind of relaxing to point fingers at the super-duper lunatics to say that at least we're not that bad.
 
Could even see it as Ian providing a privately funded asylum for the extra crazy people. Kinda what it is, I think.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 03, 2015, 09:00 AM NHFT
maybe so :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 03, 2015, 09:43 AM NHFT
Could even see it as Ian providing a privately funded asylum for the extra crazy people. Kinda what it is, I think.

 ;D

Except it means that the team loses the less insane in exchange for the full on nutters.

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on November 03, 2015, 11:08 AM NHFT
Could even see it as Ian providing a privately funded asylum for the extra crazy people. Kinda what it is, I think.

 ;D

Except it means that the team loses the less insane in exchange for the full on nutters.

I can tell you for a fact that a lot of folks have left due to it not being nutty enough, hehe. At least that's what their excuse was.

I think there is some merit in Ian's (paraphrased) "Start up something else that gets more positive attention then!" attitude. Best way to get attention away from something is to create something that gets even more attention. Frustrates the hell out of the more logically minded like us that hardly anyone "normal" out there really cares about positive things that have been advancing things forward slowly over the years. Unfortunately, the common folk have been programmed to look up to a leader of any kind. They ain't got that anarchy thing down pat yet. Hence some folks think it's good to practice "damage control", because John and Jane Doe probably don't like your more "extreme" views. God forbid you are against mandatory State vehicle inspections!

Isn't then the only real solution for someone to become a louder, "saner" voice to the masses than the current Keene regime (ain't judging, just talking in the context of this discussion)? Quite a conflict of belief to do that though, cuz we so individualistic. And so the Free Talk Live empire reigns, until...well, things stop being so boring. Maybe people don't wanna admit how slow things are going for the "movement"? Kinda was exciting there for awhile in the mid to late aughts. How many more years they gotta beg for the smart folk to actually move, instead of holding bi-annual Jeffrey Tucker fan conventions?

But yeah, BURN DE WITCH!!!!1, or somethin'...

(maybe all this is just us rebelling to another more personal level of authority, hehe. just a thought.)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 03, 2015, 11:22 AM NHFT
Could even see it as Ian providing a privately funded asylum for the extra crazy people. Kinda what it is, I think.

 ;D

Except it means that the team loses the less insane in exchange for the full on nutters.

I can tell you for a fact that a lot of folks have left due to it not being nutty enough, hehe. At least that's what their excuse was.

I think there is some merit in Ian's (paraphrased) "Start up something else that gets more positive attention then!" attitude. Best way to get attention away from something is to create something that gets even more attention. Frustrates the hell out of the more logically minded like us that hardly anyone "normal" out there really cares about positive things that have been advancing things forward slowly over the years. Unfortunately, the common folk have been programmed to look up to a leader of any kind. They ain't got that anarchy thing down pat yet. Hence some folks think it's good to practice "damage control", because John and Jane Doe probably don't like your more "extreme" views. God forbid you are against mandatory State vehicle inspections!

Isn't then the only real solution for someone to become a louder, "saner" voice to the masses than the current Keene regime (ain't judging, just talking in the context of this discussion)? Quite a conflict of belief to do that though, cuz we so individualistic. And so the Free Talk Live empire reigns, until...well, things stop being so boring. Maybe people don't wanna admit how slow things are going for the "movement"? Kinda was exciting there for awhile in the mid to late aughts. How many more years they gotta beg for the smart folk to actually move, instead of holding bi-annual Jeffrey Tucker fan conventions?

But yeah, BURN DE WITCH!!!!1, or somethin'...

(maybe all this is just us rebelling to another more personal level of authority, hehe. just a thought.)


A couple of different issues addressed.

The current course we have taken is in new (and some old) activism routes. None of which are in Keene.



Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: eglove on November 03, 2015, 01:37 PM NHFT
A couple of different issues addressed.

The current course we have taken is in new (and some old) activism routes. None of which are in Keene.

There's a lot of people, including me, who have shaken their head and turned their backs on Keene and that loud minority. Unity would be nice, but it ain't gonna' happen in that environment that they think is "reputation" based but is really clique based. Too many people going it alone. (Or maybe in this situation, that's a good thing, makes anarchists look a little less like d-bags... still though.)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on November 03, 2015, 01:56 PM NHFT
Unity would be nice, but it ain't gonna' happen in that environment that they think is "reputation" based but is really clique based.

And what about about the all the drama that desperate men have caused when they sold out their "friends" at a moment's notice? You know, when they think it will put them in a favorable light in with a "liberty lady" they admire, who in actuality has zero interest in them and makes fun of them behind their back? lol

It's easy to get discouraged with all the bullshit, winter doesn't help either. 

Maybe it's better not to care too much about what you have no control over, avoid the assholes who are below your own standards, and persevere. Takes a while to get in that mindset though, I'm about halfway there. Still plenty of sane folk left. Best to do your own thing anyway, isn't that what you really came here for? heh
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: eglove on November 03, 2015, 02:03 PM NHFT
Everyone thinks they're avoiding the "assholes" who are "below them." That's what we call cowardly avoiding conflict. It's easier to isolate yourself and blame arguments on everyone else than it is to maintain a relationship.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on November 03, 2015, 02:23 PM NHFT
That's what we call cowardly avoiding conflict. It's easier to isolate yourself and blame arguments on everyone else than it is to maintain a relationship.

Funny thing about people is that they tend to dislike folks who call people out, even though they they are justified to do so, even more than the person who's behavior is in question. And it shouldn't be that way! But that's how it be. So you learn to shut up rather than catch more arrows in the ass.

Man, if you figure out how to fix the way people are, you win the game. Freedom everywhere. People been tryin' for a long damn time, though. Maybe it's not a good struggle to take up.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: eglove on November 03, 2015, 02:54 PM NHFT
It's not "fixing," it's just "not being an asshole because everyone else is."
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on November 03, 2015, 05:15 PM NHFT
It's not "fixing," it's just "not being an asshole because everyone else is."

Lot deeper than that, though. 7 billion people all thinkin' a different way in their own heads.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 23, 2016, 11:58 AM NHFT
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13245385_10153399925560566_2371803795659762739_n.jpg?oh=4b59693cd8ec516951af53d1ad7bee81&oe=57E1F0EC)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 23, 2016, 06:34 PM NHFT
does it count if I swing wildly from one to the other
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 23, 2016, 09:28 PM NHFT
does it count if I swing wildly from one to the other

Your needle spins almost as fast as the propeller on your tin foil beanie.  ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on March 26, 2017, 08:22 PM NHFT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0GsJwoXr4Y

flat earthers calling into FTL
I didn't find the thread about us conspiracy theorist ruining the movement.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on March 29, 2017, 10:47 AM NHFT

I didn't find the thread about us conspiracy theorist ruining the movement.

Here's the thread.
Are conspiracy kooks hurting the liberty movement?
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=26607.msg363335#msg363335
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on March 29, 2017, 12:54 PM NHFT
alright my secretary is back working
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 05, 2017, 07:19 PM NHFT
Damn, sometimes it scares me that I can see the future... Well, I can't see the future but I have often been able to predict future behavior. Remember when, in this thread it was said, 'Cantwell's not a monster.'  ?

Well, it keeps getting worse... kind of proves Mark was right to shut down his edgy, racist crap. And I wonder how some of the people who thought it was awful for him being kicked out of the FSP feel now.

"How I Started Hanging Out With Nazis"
Christopher Cantwell addresses the Traditionalist Worker's Party and other National Socialist organizations in Whitesburg, Kentucky.
https://youtu.be/2RdnvahTAnU

Although he can be such a giving person... I mean he wants to give people free helicopter rides!

(https://christophercantwell.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/RAShirts1stRun.gif)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on May 06, 2017, 08:54 AM NHFT

I found it interesting that Mr. Cantwell used "crime statistics" in the video to bolster his claims about race.
It could be noted that nearly 100% of runaway slaves in the USA 160  years ago were "criminals", by legal definition of that time. 

So, it's probably important when using crime stat metrics to examine the definition of what a particular crime is, before drawing conclusions based on "crime statistics".   
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on May 06, 2017, 09:33 AM NHFT
Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones comes t mind.

Cantwell admits to having been a drug dealer and has been accused of setting up his landlord to get busted with drugs and a gun. Also accused of robbing drug dealers.

I think it's funny that some white supremacist like to say that blacks are less evolved than whites ignoring that Asians are supposedly more evolved than whites.  ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 06, 2017, 11:51 AM NHFT
sure seems good to point out these thugs and nutballs
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on May 06, 2017, 10:09 PM NHFT

I found it interesting that Mr. Cantwell used "crime statistics" in the video to bolster his claims about race.
It could be noted that nearly 100% of runaway slaves in the USA 160  years ago were "criminals", by legal definition of that time. 

So, it's probably important when using crime stat metrics to examine the definition of what a particular crime is, before drawing conclusions based on "crime statistics".   

Yeah, I just ran into that on a thread in FB, where someone was talking about the flooding in Arkansas. The comment was, "You don't see any looting there... that's where the white folks live!"

 ::)

http://time.com/wrongly-convicted/

(https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/racial-bias.png)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 06, 2017, 11:32 PM NHFT
don't all anarchists quote crime statistics?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: FTL_Ian on June 06, 2017, 01:40 AM NHFT
To Cantwell's credit, which isn't much, he does acknowledge Asian superiority.   :P
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: blackie on June 06, 2017, 03:09 AM NHFT
I've never really liked Chris and his attitude. In my eyes he hasn't really changed much over time. He has always been a self admitted asshole.

But that doesn't mean he isn't right about some things, even if they are uncomfortable.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 12, 2017, 11:30 PM NHFT
Neo-Fascist tears...

Statement on #Charlottesville
https://youtu.be/sX2gSjS2qyU

Cantwell fights back tears...
He tries to say that all his hateful rhetoric is really just entertainment. As he fears arrest or being killed.

Well, dumb ass maybe you shouldn't make a living fanning the flames of hatred.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on August 13, 2017, 06:24 AM NHFT
It's funny how he uses the term "people who look like me" when he means 'stupid white asshole'.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on August 13, 2017, 09:46 PM NHFT

Cantwell fights back tears...


More tears than when he got a face full of pepper spray (after having blasted some others with his own spray)?

I've got nothing for the guy. Never did, and Molyneux is worse.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on August 14, 2017, 08:19 AM NHFT
One of the statements Mr. Cantwell made in his video was something to the effect that "everybody and their mother were messing with him".   I'm here to say, "hey man, no mothers". 
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on August 14, 2017, 01:26 PM NHFT
One of the statements Mr. Cantwell made in his video was something to the effect that "everybody and their mother were messing with him".   I'm here to say, "hey man, no mothers". 
.....more proof that I am not part of everybody. Although my mother would have spanked him for being a little shit, which used to be grounds for corporal punishment in southern Minnesota.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 15, 2017, 08:51 AM NHFT
I see that Cantwell is back to "entertaining" his audience.

These idiots, either right or left, are determined to create destruction. With social media and "The Media" emotion propagates rapidly.

I wish the ghost of America future could show people how being baited into the angry discourse will likely cause more harm than they realize.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on August 16, 2017, 10:44 PM NHFT
Looks like he fell off the wagon.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/im-terrified-neo-nazi-blubbers-like-a-baby-in-video-reporting-hes-wanted-for-arrest-in-charlottesville/
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on August 17, 2017, 09:27 AM NHFT
 I can't help but wonder what internal things might be tormenting Mr. Cantwell.  He's fairly articulate and intelligent, but seems full of hate.  Sad.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: blackie on August 17, 2017, 12:05 PM NHFT
Homeboy has a video on the front page of the CNN website

http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2017/08/17/christopher-cantwell-fearful-jpm-orig.vice-news-chris-cantwell
(http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170817100218-christopher-cantwell-fearful-jpm-orig-00012126-medium-tease.jpg)
White supremacist chokes up in new video
Christopher Cantwell, one of the white supremacist organizers featured in Vice's documentary about Charlottesville, Virginia, appears fearful in another video posted the same weekend as the attack.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on August 18, 2017, 03:46 PM NHFT
He wanted his extra 15 minutes of fame, and he sure got it.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 19, 2017, 07:38 AM NHFT
He wanted his extra 15 minutes of fame, and he sure got it.

File it under, be careful what you wish for. He is hiding out and probably trying to figure out how to make his living.

Angry New York asshole troll or agent provocateur... Doesn't really matter, same result. His shit has caused damage from Keene to the Whitehouse. Like some carpetbagger he helped accelerate further destruction of southern heritage. Managed to promote antifa and shift public opinion toward the SJW side of the spectrum.

I curse everyone that contributed to this sick bastards rise. It is much more than some academic debate. When someone comes along and gives glimpses into their character... Wise people realize the responsibility to protect the "brand" and the community.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: blackie on August 19, 2017, 11:22 AM NHFT
Antifa can do no wrong, and their violence is justified.

Corey Long is upset reporters didn't get involved in fighting "nazis". He claims he was shot at, and that is when he used fire in self defense.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/08/18/corey-long-protest-photo-charlottesville-sot-ctn.cnn
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on August 19, 2017, 12:29 PM NHFT
Antifa can do no wrong, and their violence is justified.


.....must be a Division of God, one of the many fine God products.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on August 19, 2017, 03:24 PM NHFT
I curse everyone that contributed to this sick bastards rise. It is much more than some academic debate. When someone comes along and gives glimpses into their character... Wise people realize the responsibility to protect the "brand" and the community.

What community? People don't even agree on what NAP means, nevermind if someone is a self-destructive idiot causing more harm than good. And then what are they gonna do even if they have the balls to get involved outside of the fake world of social media, beat them with sticks until they cross the border? Honor killings?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on August 19, 2017, 03:28 PM NHFT
Antifa can do no wrong, and their violence is justified.


.....must be a Division of God, one of the many fine God products.

Marxism acts like a religion, just with more temporal punishment.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 19, 2017, 08:10 PM NHFT
I curse everyone that contributed to this sick bastards rise. It is much more than some academic debate. When someone comes along and gives glimpses into their character... Wise people realize the responsibility to protect the "brand" and the community.

What community? People don't even agree on what NAP means, nevermind if someone is a self-destructive idiot causing more harm than good. And then what are they gonna do even if they have the balls to get involved outside of the fake world of social media, beat them with sticks until they cross the border? Honor killings?

 ;D I have helped runoff many folks.
The minimum is I don't think I'd promote them... Even for clicks.  ;D
Just because some folks have never experienced "community" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: blackie on August 20, 2017, 06:31 AM NHFT
I almost feel bad for Chris. They used his picture during weekend update on Saturday Night Live.

Whack lives matter.

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on August 20, 2017, 01:05 PM NHFT
I almost feel bad for Chris. They used his picture during weekend update on Saturday Night Live.

At this point, he really only has the choice to either actually become the racist leader he wanted to be seen as by his listeners/donors or blow his brains out. He stepped beyond the point of no return in society...

Then again they've charged him with a couple of felonies, so his guns are going bye bye until he gets acquitted. But I doubt they're not going to make an example of him.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 23, 2017, 01:29 PM NHFT
Reminds me of the saying... "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

People like Cantwell think they have to overpower what they oppose. They ended up getting the polar opposite of what they wanted.

The other side is talking about "fighting hate". That is rather oxymoronic now isn't it.

Both sides like the fight. It is important for the rest of us to not be drawn into that dichotomy. My enemy's enemy is not my friend. Just because I don't want communism doesn't make me down with fascism.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on August 23, 2017, 01:35 PM NHFT
Reminds me of the saying... "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

People like Cantrell think they have to overpower what they oppose. They ended up getting the polar opposite of what they wanted.

The other side is talking about "fighting hate". That is rather oxymoronic now isn't it.

Both sides like the fight. It is important for the rest of us to not be drawn into that dichotomy. My enemy's enemy is not my friend. Just because I don't want communism doesn't make me down with fascism.

I agree people in the liberty movement should not be out defending or otherwise justifying any aspect of either side in a Nazi vs Communist argument.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on August 23, 2017, 02:50 PM NHFT
Both sides like the fight. It is important for the rest of us to not be drawn into that dichotomy.

That's the conclusion I came to last week. There's a dedicated faction on both sides that literally want to kill each other, and a bunch of people unsuspecting the true motives behind the propaganda who end up being caught up between the extremes...like the woman who was killed in the car massacre.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on August 24, 2017, 02:22 AM NHFT

Both sides like the fight. It is important for the rest of us to not be drawn into that dichotomy.


In my previous life of keeping people in cages, we had a saying: if two assholes want to fight, don't get yourself hurt trying to stop them. After 30 seconds, they'll both be happy that the other one wants to quit.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 24, 2017, 08:25 PM NHFT
I've been "monitoring" the neo-fascists for a year or so. They got all excited when AntiFa rioted in Berkeley. So they went to have the Battle of Berkeley (sorry guys, that city was lost long ago). Have to admit it was kind of fun to see the black and red flag crowd get knocked down. But, again, my enemy's enemy ain't my friend.

The neo-fascists have been rebranding the klan and such to appeal to a new audience. I was concerned that Trump's rhetoric would give license to turn anti-immigrant sentiment into a bigger bigotry.

Both the hard left and hard right want a violent conflict. The trick is not to have the rest of the reasonable folks to be baited into that crap.

I was pleased to hear many of my friends on the left weren't drinking the koolaid and were tired of the agitators, and even thought Trump was getting a bad deal from the "media".
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 24, 2017, 09:47 PM NHFT
a funny podcast I listen to "No Agenda" figured him as an Agent Provtr.
I can't disagree. I think I was in the same room as him once at a Keenevention. I was taking Derrick J's side in the debate. :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on August 25, 2017, 12:10 PM NHFT
a funny podcast I listen to "No Agenda" figured him as an Agent Provtr.
I can't disagree. I think I was in the same room as him once at a Keenevention. I was taking Derrick J's side in the debate. :)

It seems unlikely they would have let a current asset get charged with 3 felonies, so I think it's safe to say if he was he's no longer being compelled to cooperate under the threat of charges hanging over his head for something.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 25, 2017, 10:08 PM NHFT
OJ has been part of their system for years and fake goes to jail
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 26, 2017, 11:47 AM NHFT
a funny podcast I listen to "No Agenda" figured him as an Agent Provtr.
I can't disagree. I think I was in the same room as him once at a Keenevention. I was taking Derrick J's side in the debate. :)

It seems unlikely they would have let a current asset get charged with 3 felonies, so I think it's safe to say if he was he's no longer being compelled to cooperate under the threat of charges hanging over his head for something.

Yeah, he is a strange case. In the end his behavior has the same result as if he worked for the dark side. Of the interviews he gave I found it a weird mix of fairly defendable positions peppered with the violent rhetoric. He isn't a dummy, he must have known it was the inflammatory crap that would get quoted.

During the Vice documentary the goofy little smirk on his face as he showed off his weapons. I also wonder how a guy that seemed to live hand to mouth could afford all the guns he had. Because he owned more than those he showed.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on August 26, 2017, 01:48 PM NHFT
I also wonder how a guy that seemed to live hand to mouth could afford all the guns he had. Because he owned more than those he showed.

I have wondered where he got his income from between when he closed his "IT business" in NY and moved permanently to Keene until about a year ago when he went full Molyneux and started catering to the alt-right for donations. Coincidentally, his popularity bloomed big time after the raid on the LRN studio. One could speculate that his services were no longer needed at that point, but that's kind of going off into the deep end.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 26, 2017, 11:59 PM NHFT
makes sense
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: blackie on August 28, 2017, 10:54 PM NHFT
I think Cantwell had most of his guns with him. He also has a .38 revolver and a Glock 17.

It's a little weird to bring so many guns, but it was to show them off. They met in a Walmart parking lot before the tiki torch rally. The police got called to a Walmart parking lot because people got freaked out by the gunshow in the parking lot.
http://www.nbc29.com/story/36116210/albemarle-county-police-respond-to-incident-at-walmart

If you set up cyber begging, the Feds can support you and you will never know it. Most people who cyber beg don't question the source of the donations.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on August 30, 2017, 02:04 PM NHFT
The NH freedom folks have dealt admirably with the thorny Cantwell.  The combination of loving non-judgement and discerning awareness worked well.

Both sides like the fight. It is important for the rest of us to not be drawn into that dichotomy. My enemy's enemy is not my friend. Just because I don't want communism doesn't make me down with fascism.
Wisdom, that ^

But it's hard not to root more passionately against the commies, when I'm such a fan of the game, and all of my favorite players--be they statist center-left, statist center-right, or good ol' free individuals--are all being falsely maligned by these delusional ideologues, who seem hopelessly beyond any return to reason.

An ignorant bigot just has to spend some time with the right 'other' in order to wise up to #NOTALL, and besides, I can pass for white :O)

I've had a front row seat for the insanity since 1999 WTO Seatle: countless hours watching Tim Pool and hundreds of others streaming and messaging live to my living-room.  Things got more entertaining when they started dressing in crazy mad max costumes.  Then my buddy and I were sitting here, watching Faith Goldy via periscope doing a sardonic tolerance and diversity walk-by of some haters when WHAM! Seeing that live and unexpected was slightly traumatic, even here safe in my comfy desk chair.

But I'm still looking forward to Milo and Ann visiting Berkeley in a couple weeks.

... before the tiki torch rally.

Does anyone know whose money purchased and who distributed all of those torches and oil cans?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: blackie on August 31, 2017, 10:12 AM NHFT
Tiki torches are pretty cheap. You can get 12 for $30 delivered from amazon. $2.50 per tiki torch. I think it was mostly self funded. Bring your own, and bring some extras.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: K neth on August 31, 2017, 01:34 PM NHFT
I think it was mostly self funded. Bring your own, and bring some extras.

In my experience that would have resulted in clusters of torches throughout the crowd, not the creepy uniform sea of torches in the photo-op.  There are a variety of types, but 2 types seem to dominate.  It looks a lot like when the Soros truck shows up with thousands of stylish crisp new flags for the occasion.  I'm hoping to learn for sure, but am not at all networked into that crowd, and my webfu has failed.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 31, 2017, 03:56 PM NHFT
ya government agents might go for more custom stuff
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 31, 2017, 05:15 PM NHFT
Somewhere was a meeting that went something like this... "Well, dang it Hal, that sure cuts into our tiki party sales demographic. Better call the factory in China and tell them to halt production for a while! Send all we have in stock to Northern Idaho sales are sure to remain strong there!"
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 31, 2017, 07:17 PM NHFT
think of what it does to the AI machines deciding all of this
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on August 31, 2017, 10:03 PM NHFT
"A prominent figure in the white nationalist movement argued he is a “shock jock” who runs a “racist podcast” before he was denied bond on Thursday evening."


http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/local/cantwell-denied-bond-after-appeal-by-commonwealth/article_fe984c46-8e72-11e7-9aa6-d34fb61df2fb.html
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on August 31, 2017, 11:38 PM NHFT
Even though the guy is an asshole... I don't think it is appropriate to withhold bond. He did turn himself in and he didn't commit the crime of the century.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on September 01, 2017, 12:49 AM NHFT
Even though the guy is an asshole... I don't think it is appropriate to withhold bond. He did turn himself in and he didn't commit the crime of the century.

Unlike some others, I would happily walk across the street to piss on him even if he wasn't on fire.

But yes: I oppose all forms of pretrial detention except in the most extreme circumstances. Bail/bond are only supposed to ensure appearance at trial, and in today's worldwide-connected law enforcement computer systems, someone who doesn't appear *will* get caught at some point.

Anything more than that amounts to pre-conviction punishment. Even for C*ntwell.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on September 01, 2017, 09:08 AM NHFT
Even though the guy is an asshole... I don't think it is appropriate to withhold bond. He did turn himself in and he didn't commit the crime of the century.

Unlike some others, I would happily walk across the street to piss on him even if he wasn't on fire.

Let's keep your personal life out of this.   ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on September 01, 2017, 09:10 AM NHFT
Even though the guy is an asshole... I don't think it is appropriate to withhold bond. He did turn himself in and he didn't commit the crime of the century.

Anything more than that amounts to pre-conviction punishment. Even for C*ntwell.

I think you are on the mark.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 01, 2017, 12:52 PM NHFT
gotta show how much the system hates "racists"
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on September 01, 2017, 11:24 PM NHFT
Apparently this is Cantwell's attorney
Elmer Woodard
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-1/c77.77.961.961/53018_158800777476374_7228841_o.jpg?oh=bb6523b9591f4497d2f0e7a79499506a&oe=5A53656F)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on September 02, 2017, 02:26 PM NHFT
I guess they did not have lint rollers in the 18th century.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on September 02, 2017, 02:27 PM NHFT
(https://i.imgur.com/Q1C1Mbu.jpg)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on September 11, 2017, 10:07 PM NHFT
 ;D

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/20881812_1969915936352708_3946629009113766396_n.jpg?oh=60e52d740425e6cc6c2f20cc7b40fc39&oe=5A4BF6E6)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 11, 2017, 11:02 PM NHFT
that will do
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on September 25, 2017, 03:26 PM NHFT
Interfaith Group Turning Trashed Home into NH’s First Full-Time Mosque – Donations NOW MATCHED! (https://freekeene.com/2017/09/24/interfaith-group-turning-trashed-home-into-nhs-first-full-time-mosque-donations-now-matched/#respond)
(https://i1.wp.com/freekeene.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/JP_Will.jpg?ssl=1)

The interfaith cleanup crew has included Christian Lt. Cmdr Navy SEALs working alongside Muslims, and others!   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on September 25, 2017, 03:49 PM NHFT
Sometimes all you can do is sit back and wait for the inevitable drama to unfold.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 27, 2017, 08:14 AM NHFT
is the guy in the black hat .... the black hat in this drama?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jay on July 20, 2018, 01:07 PM NHFT
Can we declare the movement dead now because of a severe lack of drama?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 23, 2018, 06:15 AM NHFT
oh no .... we have gotten back to the "they ignore you stage"

we got some work to do
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on July 23, 2018, 08:16 AM NHFT
oh no .... we have gotten back to the "they ignore you stage"

we got some work to do
Ha, ha, ha, you silly goose!
There, now we can get back to attacking each other... just prior to winning.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 23, 2018, 07:51 PM NHFT
there we go
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 29, 2018, 03:30 PM NHFT
Christopher "not a monster" Cantwell's legacy is playing out. First Charlottesville with one death, numerous injuries and arrests as well as a P. R. nightmare. He was a principle agitator.

The latest is the serial bomber with his alt-right nuttery that might have an effect of swinging more votes for the socialist left. Then the Hitler loving Synagogue shooter. I say that there is a link to the rhetoric and I would guess a more direct link to Cantwell's hateful Podcast might be the case as well.

I have seen in my life how words and actions have effects and consequences. I sure as hell wish that he hadn't had his "broadcast" start on a Free Stater's radio show. Edgy content for listenership... Maybe people are dead from that nexus.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on October 30, 2018, 08:31 AM NHFT
so true .... acting like this guy had anything useful to say is crazy

the only good news is that he seems to be playing a part in events that don't actually kill anyone.

please see:

http://fakeologist.com/
http://mileswmathis.com/updates.html
cluesforum
https://www.wellaware1.com/

I am sure we have a couple more of his type lurking in our circles.

Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 31, 2018, 03:42 PM NHFT
Clicked into the second link you gave...
PDF file explains how Pittsburg was a fake event... First off because every event like this he has studied is fake and second off because Numerology says so.  Can't argue with that kind of logic.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on October 31, 2018, 09:15 PM NHFT
well .... if you read the rest of his articles it will make more sense.
He skipped some steps because he assumed the readers had some background. Since you may be new to his research, it might take a while, if you want to look into this sorts of stuff.
He has many good articles that cover a lot of historical information. Find your favorite subject and dive right in. Maybe Lizzy Borden or Salem Witch trials as a start.
Or some John Lennon Apple corp ...... to Steve Jobs Apple Inc. :)

These guys have articles about Charlottesville. I just didn't look them up. They fit with the character we know as Cantwell.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on October 31, 2018, 09:16 PM NHFT
hey man your are kinda harsh on my new friends :)
I'll ask Becky to slug you.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on October 31, 2018, 09:20 PM NHFT
the fake event with the most evidence is Sandy Hook. Lots of good info out there.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: KBCraig on November 03, 2018, 07:37 PM NHFT
the fake event with the most evidence is Sandy Hook. Lots of good info out there.

It saddens me when people whom I know to be good and kind and loving, are so certain that everything is fake, that they are willing to pretend that children didn't actually die.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 04, 2018, 09:43 PM NHFT
Have you looked into this one?
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on November 05, 2018, 07:17 AM NHFT
Whether a particular event is a false flag or not, doesn't mean that false flags haven't been proposed or used in the past.  Which is why I don't like to go down every rabbit hole...I don't need to.   Enough evidence of the systemic fraud and contradictions already exists, simply by the very nature of how government operates.

I consider the whole idea of a coercion based government. which is also claimed to somehow be an entity which exists to protect people from those who would coerce them, as the self evidence to defend my assertion.    In other words the biggest "false flag" is the one people rise to salute and teach kids to ritually revere.   


Although, I must admit I think "building 7" collapsing on its own is pretty suspect.   
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 05, 2018, 11:20 AM NHFT
that the government is the one who builds the roads .... is a "false flag" :)
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Jim Johnson on November 05, 2018, 05:18 PM NHFT
False Flags are covert operations. When they bald faced lie to you they are just calling you stupid.

I also find the 'Flat Earth' and the 'Everything is a False Flag' to be very distressing to my logical sensibilities.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 05, 2018, 09:11 PM NHFT
I can understand.
It took me a long time to get where I am on some subjects.

I don't think very many things are false flags.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Free libertarian on November 07, 2018, 09:05 AM NHFT
 

  Confusion say - "bald man who fly false freak flag vote whig party"
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 07, 2018, 07:25 PM NHFT
can't argue with that logic
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 18, 2018, 09:21 AM NHFT
(http://arafwchnawr.com/images/Cantwell%20Skulls.jpeg)

Chris "Not a Monster" Cantwell's Gab.com banner. Nice touch with the stacked skulls.

Remember all the fussing and fighting when he was kicked out? I wonder if any of the useful idiots who supported him have any remorse?

Facebook etc. kicking these guys out was probably a mistake. Gab and Bitchute etc. is growing a more virulent group of haters. I guess it is like how prohibition leads to more concentrated and dangerous drugs.
Title: Re: More lack of discernment in the Keene movement
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 19, 2018, 07:58 PM NHFT
well since I think FB and these guys work for the same team ..... all part of the pub

I sure wouldn't want to watch a show with that ad.