Every 6 months or so, LewRockwell.com likes to sell "populism" as a saving grace of libertarian stragegy based on an article by Rothbard called, "Right-Wing Populism (http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/ir/Ch5.html)." It may be one of the most misinterpreted articles by Rothbard as well. It's currently driving Cantwell's descension into fascism (I halfway believe he's using 'populism' to try to take libertarians in that direction, not the other way around.)
QuoteRothbard notes that the problem with libertarian strategy, in general, is that there is too much concentration on trying to 'correct' people, especially intellectual elites, into libertarianism when truth is not what they care about.
He suggests that libertarians need not only point out the flaws in current political thinking but expose the political elite for what they really are to the masses. He then suggests being intelligent about who you expose elites to. It is most effective to target those who are most oppressed.
QuoteHelping your surrounding culture to think in a way that forces them to consider that their choices can negatively affect their neighbors is much more effective than a single vote in a ballot box. It's certainly more effective than supporting said culture's racism and tendency towards violence. Getting people into that mindset does not require you to sell them on the non-aggression principle, or libertarianism as a philosophy. It only requires that you get them to think about the benefits of those things in the context of what's relevant to them.
^ What Populism Really Is (https://ethanglover.biz/politics/what-populism-is/)
The real question is, as far as strategy goes, what's worked for you in which situations? There is no magic incantation, but how did you get that convert, or help a person or group make a decision for liberty?
I think there's an inherent problem with "recruiting", in that you're trying to impose (what can most simply be called) how your brain works onto the general population you encounter.
Not talking about the brand of philosophy, but the apparent ability to care about such things at all at a deep level. Being introspective and coming up with your own ideas, not just parroting what you see on the TV.
Public relations/propaganda says it would be easy to manipulate the..."followers" with, shall we say, Trumpisms to convert them to The One True Way of Liberty. But then I get this sick feeling in my stomach that you're not really doing a damn thing even if you won those people over.
You could have a million FSP signers within a month, but you wouldn't be able to relate to them. So, then, what is the point...lol.
Yeah, the public is fickle.
I don't try to change the intellectual elites, I like almost everything I have read from Rothbard, and I have been accused of "populism". So I probably fit that mold pretty well, although I didn't read the article. :)
I am always interested in changing people's minds towards truth. It sometimes works. I also have to spend time searching out the truth myself. :)
Shifting the culture is more important than the political process. Culture leads politics, bottom up not top down.
So, yeah, I think getting people to accept one little course change at a time in the way they think about situations is a good thing. I just said to someone today "It's not what the government will allow you to do, the way freedom and our system works is the government disallows things." It's a paradigm shift for most people to see it that way.
The guy that really got me going down the libertarian path usually only discussed one thing at a time and gave me time to digest and think about it. He also started, like the article points to, with an issue that was effecting me personally.
Many libertarians seek purity and talk until they find the one percent that you disagree about and run that into the ground. We are such a small minority that it is silly to alienate people that aren't as far down the road to liberty as we have traveled.
If we are trying to affect the culture as opposed to the political process, it doesn't matter if we only gain one issue at a time with people we influence because we won't be giving political power to their ideas that are less pure.
I think that most people come into the movement from the political path because, face it, the LP has the brand. But I think there are many problems with trying to gain ground and move these ideas forward through political organizations. The civic/cultural avenues are a longer appearing path than the 'Hail Mary pass" dream that political victory promises, but slow and steady does win the race.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 13, 2015, 02:38 PM NHFT
Many libertarians seek purity and talk until they find the one percent that you disagree about and run that into the ground. We are such a small minority that it is silly to alienate people that aren't as far down the road to liberty as we have traveled.
Sometimes I think it's hopeless just because of how much we fight among ourselves over what is essentially minor stuff.
Then again, might as well try and figure out a way that will work to make things better here. It's an interesting game, even if I lose.
I agree with Tom S.
It would be interesting to hear how people got to their current position.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 13, 2015, 02:38 PM NHFTMany libertarians seek purity and talk until they find the one percent that you disagree about and run that into the ground. We are such a small minority that it is silly to alienate people that aren't as far down the road to liberty as we have traveled.
The flipside is that when we have someone saying X, and also claiming to be a libertarian, others may judge all libertarians by that individual, if that's the first libertarian they meet (or maybe just the loudest).
If someone says, "I'm a libertarian, and I support Trump" or "I'm a libertarian, and I think it's okay to hit people who insult you," others will hear that and say to themselves, "ah, so that's what libertarians stand for!" That can do far more damage than we would suffer by driving out that one individual.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 13, 2015, 02:38 PM NHFTIf we are trying to affect the culture as opposed to the political process, it doesn't matter if we only gain one issue at a time with people we influence because we won't be giving political power to their ideas that are less pure.
Indeed. And that's where there's an important distinction: someone who is attempting to speak
for liberty and someone who
might be brought to liberty are two different critters, and different standards need to apply. Saying, "I won't talk to you if you're not 100% perfect" is ridiculous, because it eliminates the possibility of educating that individual. On the other hand, if someone goes around saying that he's an ideal libertarian, he better be able to back that up with something close to perfection, because he's setting a standard by which others will become educated about what libertarians believe.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on December 13, 2015, 03:45 PM NHFT
I agree with Tom S.
It would be interesting to hear how people got to their current position.
I was coming up on the first election I'd decided I would vote in, in 2012, I watched The Daily Show w/ Jon Stewart (not that new, joke stealer) every night and somehow him saying, "I like Ron Paul," rung with me. Watched a few speeches and I was pretty well hooked. I had no idea I was on a path towards libertarianism, I used to consider myself a centrist.
The thing is, most strangers I come across say they're socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Wikipedia defines my generation as generally thinking that way. The only times regular people get adamant about "their team" is when they're arguing names. "Obama isn't that bad! He did this, this, and this!" Same with Bush or any other president. President's are seen as either celebrities or teams. Something people feel a strong connection to, like they're a part of something when they root for one.
However, if you avoid the teams and the names and just talk about what people think is best in general, they sway back towards that center/beginner libertarian ideal. To me, getting people while they're in that frame of mind and speaking generally from there can reinforce what they already believe, but haven't given form to yet.
What "people" want is to not have to think too hard.
I guess you can do the thinking for them, if you're the type.
Quote from: Jay on December 14, 2015, 02:06 AM NHFT
What "people" want is to not have to think too hard.
I guess you can do the thinking for them, if you're the type.
Or all they know is bullshit and everything they know about politics is no different than a headline like, "9 Cool Tricks to Save on Car Insurance!"
What if I suggested that cynicism, and the assumption that everyone is too stupid or lazy to "get on your level" is a refusal to think? >:D
Quote from: eglove on December 14, 2015, 02:27 AM NHFT
What if I suggested that cynicism, and the assumption that everyone is too stupid or lazy to "get on your level" is a refusal to think? >:D
I am always open to possibilities. Might take a while to analyze and sink in, though.
Shit, I might think I was completely stupid 3 months from now for writing that.
I do believe in nurture over nature, FWIW. At the moment, that is.
Then again, there's that whole predestination vs. free will thing. Which is a whole 'nother ball game.
Quote from: Jay on December 14, 2015, 02:45 AM NHFT
Then again, there's that whole predestination vs. free will thing. Which is a whole 'nother ball game.
Benefits, doubts, positive thoughts in an evil world. All that stuff. Who knows what the hell really helps? Honestly, I think we're on a track predestined track created by human action and growing intelligence with greater access to information. Or Trump will win the Presidency and people will soon forget that it's water that plants need, not electrolytes. I may as well pretend the latter for now.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on December 13, 2015, 03:45 PM NHFT
I agree with Tom S.
It would be interesting to hear how people got to their current position.
Well since you asked sir...
There was no aha moment for me, libertarian thoughts and actions would randomly occur in my words and acts as a young person. So it sort of bubbled up throughout my life now and then in the 1960s and 70s, but was by no means consistent or founded in anything I'd read, it was more of an undertone or a feeling that came, manifested and then slid back into my sub conscious. Of course being enrolled in public schools there was a strong institutional inhibition to even having libertarian thoughts, much less libertarian actions. Had a crush on Pippi Longstocking as a nine year old...she was one cool independent girl!
I refused to salute the flag one day in 7th grade, (got whacked on the head for it by the public school teacher too...apparently THAT wasn't bullying though..) I bought a house as a young man and came to understand early on that property tax was an oxymoron etc. I engaged in cannabis related activities as far back as 1972 and reasoned it out as a teenager, that all people owned their own bodies etc. I stood up for neighbors that were being bullied by the rest of the ahem "concerned" neighbors who wanted to force them to comply with their gang regarding the use of their property, things like that kept popping up.
I think my dad had something to do with it, he was a libertarian but didn't realize it. ( He always thought of himself as a democrat, because he usually voted that way.) However he knew about the Federal Reserve being bad decades ago, hated the codes enforcement douches telling him what he could or couldn't do with his own property. Growing up we always went hunting so guns were respected and not the big bad wolf in our house. Dad even had some epic rants about what shitheads the government was before it became fashionable. Go dad!!
I voted reflexively for democrats as a younger man, but often felt at odds with some of their platforms or obvious inconsistencies. Started voting for libertarians sometimes when they'd appear on a ballot because I reasoned even if they "were never gonna win" the ideas made alot of sense.
In more recent years, and after reading and associating with lots of similar minded people I became more consistently libertarian.
I was a big Ron Paul supporter in 2008, but by 2012 I had to vote for Vermin Supreme....the lure of the free pony was just too much.
Of course upon following libertarianism to its logical end I came to where I am now. I'd self describe myself now as a Voluntaryist Panarchist Free market Weeda Clausian Elfish guy.
Yes... I need to come up with a better self description for the sake of a cool acronym, I'll work on that.
Quote from: eglove on December 14, 2015, 02:54 AM NHFT
Or Trump will win the Presidency and people will soon forget that it's water that plants need, not electrolytes.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/poll-trump-new-high-216741
Futtbuckers.
FWIW, if I was going to focus on a specific type of person to have the best chance of "winning them over", I would pick those who are in their early 30's. They're likely going through a life-examination phase at that point, and are usually open to new ideas.
Quote from: eglove on December 14, 2015, 02:54 AM NHFTHonestly, I think we're on a track predestined track created by human action and growing intelligence with greater access to information.
dystopia
Quote from: Free libertarian on December 14, 2015, 08:48 AM NHFTVoluntaryist Panarchist Free market Weeda Clausian Elfish guy.
Where do I sign up and do you have free kool aid?
Quote from: Jay on December 14, 2015, 05:32 PM NHFT
FWIW, if I was going to focus on a specific type of person to have the best chance of "winning them over", I would pick those who are in their early 30's. They're likely going through a life-examination phase at that point, and are usually open to new ideas.
Tell 8-year-olds their teachers have no real authority over them...
Early 30's seems good, no longer distracted by the constant bombardment of public school propaganda. No longer totally dysfunctional twice a year during finals when everything in your brain gets fried out. Buuuutt... there's the issue of jadedness. People lose energy for wanting to actively change things over time... or do they just get sneakier about it? Hmm.
I've come to believe that the best place to make advancements is on individual issues and individual situations.
I just was talking with a couple that are on the board for a homeowners association. They are in a pretty cool little community with private roads and most have a pretty much live and let live attitude. I said how I liked when I saw weird little homesteads, because it proved that freedom was accepted there. It might not be tidy or what most people would like to have, but that in order to have my freedom I needed to tolerate others choices.
Pretty quickly they began to agree with me that the reason people move to a rural setting was to be left alone.
Now if I had decided to discuss global warming or politics they wouldn't have been as friendly.
But the victory is that the next time they are deciding if they should advance the power of the homeowners association they will be on the side of live and let live.
Having fun with SFK yet, Ethan?
:glasses1:
Maybe a thing for burning witches (the outsiders of society) is still in New Englander's blood.
Quote from: Jay on December 15, 2015, 08:55 PM NHFT
Having fun with SFK yet, Ethan?
:glasses1:
Maybe a thing for burning witches (the outsiders of society) is still in New Englander's blood.
I've been told the thread will be deleted.... now I've got screenshots. Such ridiculous people. Give them a chance to talk and they get defensive and freak out like scared children. Days of ignoring their insults, I knew it'd probably be a waste. But the saddest part is that I can visibly see there are good, normal people in the mix, but the bulldogs block you from getting to them. As a result, everyone comes off as an asshole. I'd almost call it "deja vu"......
You don't move to Keene for the FSP unless you are looking for conflict.
An Attempted Conversation With Stop Free Keene (https://ethanglover.biz/politics/attempted-conversation-stop-free-keene/)
Quote from: eglove on December 14, 2015, 10:09 PM NHFT
Quote from: Free libertarian on December 14, 2015, 08:48 AM NHFTVoluntaryist Panarchist Free market Weeda Clausian Elfish guy.
Where do I sign up and do you have free kool aid?
TNSTAFKA (There's no such thing as free kool aid.)
Quote from: eglove on December 16, 2015, 02:30 AM NHFT
An Attempted Conversation With Stop Free Keene (https://ethanglover.biz/politics/attempted-conversation-stop-free-keene/)
I read thru the posts on the link.
Some people seem to really want to cling to their hate and dissonance, like it's part of their identity. Thanks for trying to have a discussion with the haters.
Quote from: Free libertarian on December 17, 2015, 09:10 AM NHFT
Quote from: eglove on December 16, 2015, 02:30 AM NHFT
An Attempted Conversation With Stop Free Keene (https://ethanglover.biz/politics/attempted-conversation-stop-free-keene/)
I read thru the posts on the link.
Some people seem to really want to cling to their hate and dissonance, like it's part of their identity. Thanks for trying to have a discussion with the haters.
I think without Tammy and Susan, things would have gone much better, but still nothing would happen. Anytime someone from SFK has agreed to talk to someone from FK, that SFK member seems to have been met with the same hateful resistance. Andrea Whitcomb told me from the beginning I'd have to get permission from her another admin that she specified if I wanted to talk to someone.
It's a hate cult.
Susan is just a leftist ideologue who is only interested in spinning and attacking anyone that's to the right of Stalin. ;D
I think that some of the folks over there would be uncomfortable if they had to acccept the political climate she would love to force upon them.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 17, 2015, 04:36 PM NHFT
I think that some of the folks over there would be uncomfortable if they had to acccept the political climate she would love to force upon them.
The enemy of their enemy is their friend.
Quote from: Jay on December 17, 2015, 07:36 PM NHFT
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on December 17, 2015, 04:36 PM NHFT
I think that some of the folks over there would be uncomfortable if they had to acccept the political climate she would love to force upon them.
The enemy of their enemy is their friend.
Anything is acceptable for them, so long as you hate them damned free staters. :lockstep: