http://www.mises.org/story/2066
"Despite the seeming anarchy, Somalia's service sector has managed to survive and grow. Telecommunication firms provide wireless services in most major cities and offer the lowest international call rates on the continent. In the absence of a formal banking sector, money exchange services have sprouted throughout the country, handling between $500 million and $1 billion in remittances annually. Mogadishu's main market offers a variety of goods from food to the newest electronic gadgets. Hotels continue to operate, and militias provide security."
---The CIA Fact Book
Tracy
A veritable paradise, to be sure.
NAIROBI, 21 February (IRIN) - Thousands of people have fled the northern and northeastern suburbs of the Somali capital, Mogadishu, since clashes between militia groups started over the weekend, a top city official said.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/bf1a15cdd507353466d952e800a0169e.htm
Nobody said it was a paradise. Good grief.
The only thing the author is saying is that imposing government would only increase the violence and cause more problems.
Tracy
Quote from: JonM on February 21, 2006, 10:51 AM NHFT
A veritable paradise, to be sure.
NAIROBI, 21 February (IRIN) - Thousands of people have fled the northern and northeastern suburbs of the Somali capital, Mogadishu, since clashes between militia groups started over the weekend, a top city official said.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/bf1a15cdd507353466d952e800a0169e.htm
Those darm religious fanatics and power fanatics don't seem to get a long.
Quote from: tracysaboe on February 21, 2006, 11:15 AM NHFT
Nobody said it was a paradise. Good grief.
The only thing the author is saying is that imposing government would only increase the violence and cause more problems.
Tracy
And current events suggest that may not be the case, as that article is dated today.
You would want to go back to centralized government and civil war?
Did you even read it?
http://www.mises.org/story/2066
The author if the book this person's reviewing has lived their for the past 15 years, and sees the warlords as a response to U.N. attempts to impose government. They want to make sure that IF government is imposed they're got some control over it. Much of the war-lord violence would minamize if the U.N. would quit trying to force central government on the country.
Yes. People perhaps fled that region. But people would be fleeing the entire contry w/ centralized government as everybody violently fought to be in control of it.
TRacy
I just contend that most people aren't "Loving It"
But Jon you are overlooking the fact that local "warlords" have been supplied armaments by interested foreign governments.
When you're being shot at, how concerned are you with who supplied the guns to the shooter?
Quote from: JonM on February 21, 2006, 12:01 PM NHFT
I just contend that most people aren't "Loving It"
Perhaps. If you read the article you'll find that that refers to the person who wrote the book that lives there.
Calib's point is that if other governments and the U.N weren't supplying guns things would be more peacefull. Hence even in "almost-Anarchy Somalia" government is still largely the cause of most of the problems.
Tracy
I think the general sense is that things have improved over the last 12 years in somalia, under an established anarchy, but they have improved slowly and with a fair amount of instability. The cell phone thing gets a lot of attention because it is so successful but overall the recovery has not been so fast.
Certainly it is not the hellhole that it was right after the government cratered, and it does seem to make the case that a country with a tortured past can become more viable in the later stages of anarchy than it was in the immediate post-governmnet years.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on February 21, 2006, 02:29 PM NHFT
I think the general sense is that things have improved over the last 12 years in somalia, under an established anarchy, but they have improved slowly and with a fair amount of instability. The cell phone thing gets a lot of attention because it is so successful but overall the recovery has not been so fast.
Certainly it is not the hellhole that it was right after the government cratered, and it does seem to make the case that a country with a tortured past can become more viable in the later stages of anarchy than it was in the immediate post-governmnet years.
You're always very eliquent Dada. That's exactly what I was trying to say. thank you. :)
Tracy
Quote from: DadaOrwell on February 21, 2006, 02:29 PM NHFT
I think the general sense is that things have improved over the last 12 years in somalia, under an established anarchy, but they have improved slowly and with a fair amount of instability. The cell phone thing gets a lot of attention because it is so successful but overall the recovery has not been so fast.
Certainly it is not the hellhole that it was right after the government cratered, and it does seem to make the case that a country with a tortured past can become more viable in the later stages of anarchy than it was in the immediate post-governmnet years.
Most importantly, I think that Somalia shows that the freedom view of anarchy is much more likely to happen in a country like Somalia than the Marxist view of anarchy.
Marx thought that after all freedom was eliminated via communism, anarchy would form it that everyone worked together because they wanted to.
The good thing about anarchy .... you can flee the country. You can't do that very well under tyrants. :)
Quote from: russellkanning on February 23, 2006, 12:19 PM NHFT
The good thing about anarchy .... you can flee the country. You can't do that very well under tyrants. :)
Is someone forcing you to stay here ???
Not here. But some counritres have very draconian Emmigration policies, that make it illegal to leave the country.
Even America has this. If you get caught leaving the country w/ more then $10,000 they can confiscate the rest. And really any amount they can confiscate if that accuse it of being drug money.
Most people, instead of paying a huge tax to move (Which is what this ammounts to) will just stay.
Tracy
QuoteEven America has this. If you get caught leaving the country w/ more then $10,000 they can confiscate the rest. And really any amount they can confiscate if that accuse it of being drug money.
Electronic currencies like e-gold (http://www.e-gold.com)make it possible to circumvent such laws.
Yup. If you've got the savy to know how to do it. The Fed's FROZE all of e-golds accounts about 10 years back for quite awhile and it hurt everybody that was using it.
It certainly doesn't stop the Fed's from trying.
Tracy
You also could load a boat up and sail away with a pile of money.
QuoteThe Fed's FROZE all of e-golds accounts about 10 years back for quite awhile and it hurt everybody that was using it.
They also temporarily shut down the Internet in Somalia.
There are certain things they can do
once and
temporarily to scare people or piss them off that they wouldn't get away with long term.
If you were leaving the country, why would you want greenbacks? Convert it into something precious and wearable, they may stop you with $20,000 in cash, but are they going to question your jewelry? The fungibility of jewelry being another matter entirely though . . .
I could go for a little Somalia style government here in america.
What was the name of their tuath equivalent?
Clan
oops... we couldn't keep our nose out of there:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-somalia19may19,1,1344369.story?coll=la-headlines-world
yea .... we will later find out all the warlords are backed by some bigger gang (government).
"See you can't have a place with no government. Look at the warlords."
"Somalia plunged into anarchy in 1991 after the fall of the Mohamed Siad Barre regime."
oh .... for the same fate. They are killing each other there .... much like in Iraq .... soon Iran.
Quote from: russellkanning on February 23, 2006, 12:19 PM NHFT
The good thing about anarchy .... you can flee the country. You can't do that very well under tyrants. :)
When a one world government comes to be " and it will" then where do we run.
With globalization being embraced by so many it wont be much longer that no matter where you go the laws will be the same. Personal sovereignty as well as national sovereignty will be a thing of the past.
I oppose our current government because it is evil. It is part of the 1 world government. It is not trying to protect us from it. US national sovereignty has not stopped evil.
If another group takes over this area, I will be opposing them also.
Quote from: russellkanning on May 20, 2006, 07:51 AM NHFT
I oppose our current government because it is evil. It is part of the 1 world government. It is not trying to protect us from it. US national sovereignty has not stopped evil.
If another group takes over this area, I will be opposing them also.
I agree that " some " of the people in power are trying to usher in a one world government, and yes they are evil.
I believe US national sovereignty has stopped "as well as created" evil.
It all so has given people a place of refuge that have escaped evil.
But that is now being compromised by those want a one world government and no middle class society.
The middle class have the resources to question and resist tyranny the poor do not.
I do not want the world to go back to being only the rich and the poor.
If the globalist have their way the whole world would be like Mexico or worse.
Where would the poor go then for opportunity, if the whole world was reduced to that kind of economy?
No we do not have the freedom we want or know we should have, that is why I moved to NH.
Most of us that have moved here are trying to make it a better place, starting at the local level.
We are making a difference, a small difference yes but its more than others through out the country can claim.
The changes we want are not going to happen overnight "unless we have an armed revolt" even then I am not sure that we would end up with something better.
Oppressive Government that is somewhat bound by laws that we can use to reign them back or Oppressive warlords with no regard for law.
If our Government or country falls as some in this group want, I am very concerned with what will ultimately move in to fill that void!
As far as I am concerned this country is still more desirable than anything else being offered through out the world.
I love our culture and the opportunities that we have here.
Half of my family has been here since before America was even a country.
The other half came before the war of Northern aggression against the South.
They were prosperous at first " with out the use of slavery" but they were driven off their land by the occupying government, for being Irish and Cherokee mixed.
Regardless
I still love this Country over all others and would pick it over all others every time.
I think our country is better than other places despite the government. We would have been better off without it and we will be better off in the future.
Quote from: lawofattraction on May 20, 2006, 05:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: BillyC on May 20, 2006, 08:49 AM NHFTI do not want the world to go back to being only the rich and the poor.
This is exactly what the NWO crowd would like, and they are well on their way toward achieving it.
I agree!
The globalist keep saying America needs to become more competitive in the world market.
The only way to do that is tear down the blue collar middle class by moving all the better paying jobs out of the country. Lots of property will be on the market soon from people loosing their homes due to severely reduced income.
QuoteThe only way to do that is tear down the blue collar middle class
Precisely. Create 2 classes, the ruling elite, and the subservient masses.
Quote from: AlanM on May 21, 2006, 08:45 AM NHFT
QuoteThe only way to do that is tear down the blue collar middle class
Precisely. Create 2 classes, the ruling elite, and the subservient masses.
Then continue the trend by dumbing down their children in the public schools.
Quote from: BillyC on May 21, 2006, 08:50 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on May 21, 2006, 08:45 AM NHFT
QuoteThe only way to do that is tear down the blue collar middle class
Precisely. Create 2 classes, the ruling elite, and the subservient masses.
Then continue the trend by dumbing down their children in the public schools.
Dumbing down is only part of it. Subservience is the BIG goal. (or complete apathy)
Quote from: AlanM on May 21, 2006, 08:52 AM NHFT
Quote from: BillyC on May 21, 2006, 08:50 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on May 21, 2006, 08:45 AM NHFT
QuoteThe only way to do that is tear down the blue collar middle class
Precisely. Create 2 classes, the ruling elite, and the subservient masses.
Then continue the trend by dumbing down their children in the public schools.
Dumbing down is only part of it. Subservience is the BIG goal. (or complete apathy)
America is in the apathy stage at the point.
Wait till the majority of the country looses their homes and has to start moving back in with other family members. Some will start waking up when that happens, others will just see it as a sign of the times.
It'll just be like another great depression but this time instead of our government creating socialist programs it will be the UN that will come to our "rescue".