There is a way to use a gold-silver-land-stock based currency amongst freestaters that is perfectly seemless. That is, you could use a debit card and checks just as you would anything else. There are mutual funds that let you write checks or even use a debit card, but you pull money write out of the mutual fund. Such accounts get around a lot of banking regulations, and there aren't the same reserve requirements as FDIC banks.
In other words, those of us wanting to use a gold backed currency could do so simply by buying into a gold fund, then spending out of that. For a more risk averse approach, one could deposit their money in a mixed fund with precious metals, securities, and index funds. Index funds carry a minimal management fee (like .2%) and any fees you pay go right back into FSP efforts.
In other words, you operate the whole thing like a credit union, where FSP members (and anyone else willing to join) signs up for an account. Since we all believe in banking privacy, we can set the credit union up to offer that. For example, it is possible to set up Cayman Islands offshore accounts by obtaining a "B" liscense for a bank that operates out of the islands.
When you deposit funds, they are used to buy into those funds. When FSPers buy and sell from eachother, there is no fiat currency transaction. Even though you are writing out a check in dollars, you are only transfering $x for goods and services. When you buy from non credit union members, the shares in your account are exchanged for dollars.
Maybe it could be set up in terms of gold and silver amounts, represented by actual metal stored somewhere, like e-gold but smaller and less restrictive. Of course you could still deposit and withdraw actual dollar amounts, but the reserve would fluctuate in dollars. Not ideal if there are periodic shifts and you get paid in dollars, but who can get paid in silver or gold nowadays?
Bank Machines where gold coins come out instead of FEDs 8)
Interesting. I've never heared of securities funds with this level of liquidity, but there are gold-backed things on the 'net out there that do this (e-Bullion being one). The problem is, they have relitavely steep fees. :'( I've proposed something similar at the FSP forum (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=11547.0). We should definately put our heads together, maxxoccupancy! I'm going to PM you right now with my contact info.
Quote from: burnthebeautiful on April 20, 2006, 06:32 PM NHFT
Bank Machines where gold coins come out instead of FEDs 8)
Like this?
http://www.chooney.com/liberty/change.html (http://www.chooney.com/liberty/change.html)
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Quote from: maxxoccupancy on April 19, 2006, 06:34 PM NHFT
There is a way to use a gold-silver-land-stock based currency amongst freestaters that is perfectly seemless. That is, you could use a debit card and checks just as you would anything else. There are mutual funds that let you write checks or even use a debit card, but you pull money write out of the mutual fund. Such accounts get around a lot of banking regulations, and there aren't the same reserve requirements as FDIC banks.
In other words, those of us wanting to use a gold backed currency could do so simply by buying into a gold fund, then spending out of that. For a more risk averse approach, one could deposit their money in a mixed fund with precious metals, securities, and index funds. Index funds carry a minimal management fee (like .2%) and any fees you pay go right back into FSP efforts.
In other words, you operate the whole thing like a credit union, where FSP members (and anyone else willing to join) signs up for an account. Since we all believe in banking privacy, we can set the credit union up to offer that. For example, it is possible to set up Cayman Islands offshore accounts by obtaining a "B" liscense for a bank that operates out of the islands.
When you deposit funds, they are used to buy into those funds. When FSPers buy and sell from eachother, there is no fiat currency transaction. Even though you are writing out a check in dollars, you are only transfering $x for goods and services. When you buy from non credit union members, the shares in your account are exchanged for dollars.
I think you have to decide whether money is a commodity that stores value within the medium itself that you are exchanging or just represents a medium that does not have to be immediately redeemable as a social construct...setting up a system of storing value within the medium itself is much, much harder than a simple "home equity loan" type of arrangement backed by "real" property...
for instance the New London Society United for Trade and Commerce, a mutualist land bank started in the 18th century in CT, issued credit scrip backed by real property as security but not necessarily redeemable unless defaulted upon.
http://www.dinsdoc.com/davis-2.htm (http://www.dinsdoc.com/davis-2.htm)
Currency serves as a medium of exchange and a storer of value. With gold-silver accounts, you would still be using a debit card, checks, and US currency for purchases, but the money in your account would be backed by some combination of gold, silver, securities, index funds, and whatever else you choose. US currency deposited into this type of account is immediately converted into whatever type of index you choose, and continues to accrue interest until you spend it.
There are already mutual fund accounts and gold accounts like this, but you are often charged hefty fees. However, since the Porcupine Credit Union would be run by free staters, any fees would at least return to our members and fsp activities. I'm sure that we could have some kind of minimum deposit requirement to avoid the fees, but I would pay them happily for the added privacy that banks don't offer.
We could even buy a building and reuse it for lots of other fsp activities and business ventures.
--Max
good ideas, max. How do we deal with the off chance that some jerk police try to come and confiscate our stores? For this and other security reasons, I suggest that this business must be done in a very distributed manner, both in terms of physical goods, but also in terms of information. Do you use MS Word or OpenOffice? I have a draft document of something related to this that I'd like to send you.
Encrypted data would of course be essential. Something really good like PGP with as many digit keys as you can tolerate, passphrases the works.
Not that it would keep away NSA types with quantum computers (if they are in research mode now for them, I'm sure the NSA is 5 years ahead of the published curve), but it would befuddle any amateurs.
It might. Remember that they spend approximately 50% of their time watching porn and playing online poker :D
My main concern was simply giving freestaters (and anyone else who wanted one) a quick and easy way to switch some or all of their savings into something real and tangible. Freestaters around the country could get these little debit cards and use them everywhere. Instead of keeping a dollar based savings/checking account, you could keep your savings in a more secure form. You still spend dollars out of your account, but your savings are kept in a kind of mutual fund, invested in gold, silver, real estate, securities, index funds, and other hedges.
Just as importantly, any fees you pay would go right back into the fsp effort. An fsp credit union would give us all a lot more control, economic opportunities, and name recognition. Remember, every 5,000 savings account returns about $5-600 a year in returns and fees for members and the credit union itself. Since libertarians tend to keep their word, loans are a safer bet, and interest rates could be kept down, and the borrowing process could be kept simple. Credit unions generally offer a better deal than other banks.
--Max
That's definately my experience, Maxx. I had a savings account at US Bank (absolute crap) up until a few years ago, at which point I transfered to a local credit union. What a difference being a "member" rather than just one of several million "customers" makes! I highly recommend that everyone try it. :D
I hope this works out, Max. I would definitely be willing to put my money into a freestater bank. I'm not very banking savvy, however. I'll trust yall instead.
I don't have banking experience either. Maybe this is something that can be done by net-yet-moveders. Does anyone here know how to set up a credit union? How to order the debit cards and what not?
--Max
It can't be that hard, but it takes some capital to get started. There's a reason why financial institutions tend to have investors 8-).
Quote from: powerpenguin on May 03, 2006, 12:28 AM NHFT
It can't be that hard, but it takes some capital to get started. There's a reason why financial institutions tend to have investors 8-).
Who says we have to make our money by lending? If we own mutual fund based accounts through such a credit union, then those accounts are not used for lending. The depositer pays the requisite fees for the account. Mutual funds usually take 2% of your total per year, but index funds take just 0.2%
If membership in this credit union is paid with a flat $8-10 a month fee per customer, then who is to say that this is wrong? I already pay more than that for "free" checking.
--Max
Quote from: maxxoccupancy on May 04, 2006, 02:56 AM NHFT
Quote from: powerpenguin on May 03, 2006, 12:28 AM NHFT
It can't be that hard, but it takes some capital to get started. There's a reason why financial institutions tend to have investors 8-).
Who says we have to make our money by lending? If we own mutual fund based accounts through such a credit union, then those accounts are not used for lending. The depositer pays the requisite fees for the account. Mutual funds usually take 2% of your total per year, but index funds take just 0.2%
If membership in this credit union is paid with a flat $8-10 a month fee per customer, then who is to say that this is wrong? I already pay more than that for "free" checking.
--Max
$8-$10 a month in fees! I'm sorry, I'll keep my money in my mattress!
Quote from: maxxoccupancy on May 04, 2006, 02:56 AM NHFT
[If membership in this credit union is paid with a flat $8-10 a month fee per customer, then who is to say that this is wrong? I already pay more than that for "free" checking.
Credit Unions usually have no fees.
Recently Credit Unions have been acting more like banks; trying to grow bigger, gaining new groups that are outside of their core membership, and charge monthly fees.
The minute any account I have charges a fee.. I will close that account.
I don't have any fees either, as long as I don't get tagged for overdrafts on my checking account. Expenses should be taken out as a small % of income from investments, loans, etc. as existing CUs already do.
I still like what I here.
You mean "hear"? Also, what do you mean?
Max--
I like the way you're thinking. The idea might need a lot of work...hell it might be wholy unfeasable. But it'll be valuable knowledge whether it flies or falls.
We'll MAKE it work, damnit! 8-)
No fees goes along with banks that have the advantage of inventing money.
Would this CU be connected to the fed system for check clearing, debit system etc.?
Perhaps, if it's possible to do it in a non-compromising way. Otherwise no. Do you have any buddies who are creditors? It might come in handy later.