What do folks think about starting a new currency? I have a sample of one I have been working on call NH Granites and I started a non-profit to look into the alternative currency idea called New Hampshire Granites Currency Project.
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d94/seamuisobrien/SAMPLEGRANITES.png)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d94/seamuisobrien/ONE.png)
What's wrong with the Liberty Dollar?
Yeah, I think the Liberty Dollar is pretty good for what we are.
It's amazing how the dollar fails to inflate when they don't tax it.
Once we get more libertarians in the senate, we might even be able to get a state currency going...
the first alternative currency used in the state during the modern era was something called the "constant" and was used in Exeter, NH in the early 70's.
invented by the radical decentralist & georgist Ralph Borsodi, it was backed by a "basket of commodities" that included hard metals.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Homesteading_and_Self_Reliance/1974_May_June/The_Borsodi_Constant__an_Inflation_Free_Currency (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Homesteading_and_Self_Reliance/1974_May_June/The_Borsodi_Constant__an_Inflation_Free_Currency)
This would cost an amazing amount of capital (backing, printing, storage, management) to create a viable dollar replacement. Why should we invest money and time into this - what can I return out of it?
An e-currency would be a million times cheaper, would it not? And what would make our currency better than the others?
I like the Liberty Dollar, but it can be done better, and competition is good. I say go for it!
I don't think we need yet another currency, but rather focus should be given to the Credit Union idea, basing assets on many different things, ie different metals, different stock/debt-based funds, etc. as well as different modus operandi (ie, physical gold and e-gold, ALDs and eLDs, etc.) Initial setup might be a tad more complicated, but for the long term it should produce a more stable and more litigation/search-and-seizure proof financial institution.
Can the credit union and the mutual aid society be combined with a bartering (tax-free) system for maximum power punch?
You want to compete with Concord Downtown dollars?
Start a gold/silver warehouse and issue reciepts.
Quote from: fourthgeek on May 16, 2006, 08:54 PM NHFT
Can the credit union and the mutual aid society be combined with a bartering (tax-free) system for maximum power punch?
yes...Ripple Pay
http://www.ripplepay.com/faq/#why_ripple (http://www.ripplepay.com/faq/#why_ripple)
Quote from: FSP-Rebel on May 15, 2006, 01:57 PM NHFT
What's wrong with the Liberty Dollar?
Quote from: Keith and Stuff on May 15, 2006, 02:20 PM NHFT
Yeah, I think the Liberty Dollar is pretty good for what we are.
The Lie-berty Dollar is rarely (if EVER) used properly because it is far more difficult to spend them if people know the truth about them.
In other words, people try to pass them off as US currency because of the "$" on them.
People admit doing this regularly. Read through the testimonials on their website.
The liberty dollar is really a big complication of what should be a simple thing.
Until alternative money is able to display its conversion value to US dollars in realtime, vendors will still refuse to take it.
Quote from: aries on May 17, 2006, 02:51 PM NHFT
The liberty dollar is really a big complication of what should be a simple thing.
Until alternative money is able to display its conversion value to US dollars in realtime, vendors will still refuse to take it.
So, you think there should be a computer chip and electronic display on each piece of currency? Would they be WiFi or cell phone? If not, then how could they possibly display a realtime conversion value? Who determines the conversion value?
The whole point of the Liberty Dollar is to allow people to use it in transactions just like they do with the FRNs, to get them used to money. Once enough people are used to actually using money again, we can convert over to a more principled currency that just uses weights.
As long as the majority of people are using FRNs, they will expect transactions to be denominated in FRNs. That's what we need to get away from, but there needs to be a way to actually make the transition.
The Liberty Dollar allows people to decide for themselves how to use it. They can decide to take the easy course and accept the FRN denomination, or they can treat it as if it were a specific amount of metal (also denominated). No one is forced to accept the FRN denomination (or the weight denomination).
Having both hard and fiat currency, I will continue to pay with dollars. When is is too late to buy gold? Gold and silver or anything else as long as there isn't much "markup" over intrinsic value, is worth holding on to while paper continues to be accepted universally.
Cathleen
Quote from: Ron Helwig on May 18, 2006, 09:08 AM NHFT
The whole point of the Liberty Dollar is to allow people to use it in transactions just like they do with the FRNs, to get them used to money. Once enough people are used to actually using money again, we can convert over to a more principled currency that just uses weights.
That kinda makes sense, but if there is a more principled way to do something, then we should do that right away. :)
You aren't going to get people to use good money if bad money is accepted. IF, you refused to do business with me unless I use good money, THEN I would have to consider if doing business with you is worth the extra cost of giving up something of better value. I might with you guys, of course. With others, if they accept either, give em the junk money.
Cathleen
Quote from: cathleeninnh on May 18, 2006, 10:38 AM NHFT
You aren't going to get people to use good money if bad money is accepted. IF, you refused to do business with me unless I use good money, THEN I would have to consider if doing business with you is worth the extra cost of giving up something of better value. I might with you guys, of course. With others, if they accept either, give em the junk money.
Which is why there's a difference between the FRN denomination od LDs and the spot price. You can get the LD at various discounts, depending on your affiliation with NORFED.
Of course most people using LDs are at least partly doing it to educate.
You don't need a state currency. let individuals decide whatever currency they want to use.
Tracy
Message to Utopians...............
Today we have FRN, LD, silver rounds, and some other stuff. JP is trying to offer another option.
I think I know why we can't have a libertarian/anarchist state. It is because everyone is purer than the next, and they know the shining path of truth. Lets just work to get things going.
I hope you're not refering to me. I don't have a problem with JP trying to start his own currency project.
What I take issue with is somebody said we need a State currency.
And we don't. If NH secedes, it is the hope that NH won't take over that function of the fed. That people will be allowed to choose of their own accord which meadian(s) of exchange they want to use.
If some choose to use the NH GRanite, let them.
Tracy
Well, at the risk of upsetting the purists ...
When NH secedes, I don't see a way around the Republic of NH doing *something* about the currency. Ideally, they would simply demoninate a "granite" as a simple ounce of silver, and allow banks (or anyone else, for that matter) to issue notes, $100 percent redeemable in silver coin.
But if NH doesn't give their "official" support to it ... the currency is likely to be completely valueless from the standpoint of the rest of the world.
That having been said ...
If NH can resist the urge to meddle in the currency, there would be nothing to keep us from using Euros, Francs, Pounds, or even dollars to trade with the rest of the world.
Caleb
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 18, 2006, 06:29 PM NHFT
I hope you're not refering to me. I don't have a problem with JP trying to start his own currency project.
What I take issue with is somebody said we need a State currency.
And we don't. If NH secedes, it is the hope that NH won't take over that function of the fed. That people will be allowed to choose of their own accord which meadian(s) of exchange they want to use.
If some choose to use the NH GRanite, let them.
Tracy
Currency is number #998 on my list of things to fix.
I don't think that JP's Granite will ever take off.
I think that many people have libertarian pie in the sky ideas and bitch about all the problems and never do anything about it. They bitch unless it is 'pure'. Well I say make it better now and work for pure later.
For example....I am fighting for lower property taxes in my town... I am trying to get 0% increase for 2006-7. Others might say... it should be zero taxes IN reality that is not going to happen but there is a chance that we might have 0% increase.
So before everyone gets offended... if you are trying to fix things (in whatever manner you see fit).. then good on you.
If you just like to bitch then this post was for you.
I think this is why I avoided LP meetings all those years ago. It is the reason why I wasn't going to go to porcfest... I am afraid it will be an LP bitchfest.
/off soapbox.
The Free Banking Era (http://www.frbsf.org/currency/expansion/history/text2.html): More than 30,000 Different Notes in Circulation
Suppose you found a wallet filled with paper money sometime during the Free Banking Era, which was from 1836 to 1866. This wallet might contain a yellow two-cent note issued by the New York druggist Matthew's Bros. You also might find a three-cent note issued by the Peabody Ladies Furnishing Store in Massachusetts. The most attractive of the bunch might be a pink 25-cent note issued by the Hyson Tea Company in New York. Imagine using some of these notes to pay for something at the store! During the Free Banking Era, consumers could not be sure that merchants would accept their paper money. Although merchants were able to certify currency as genuine by consulting registries called Bank Note Reporters, approximately one-third of all paper money during the Free Banking Era was estimated to be counterfeit.
Before the Free Banking Era went into effect, it was difficult for banks to obtain a commercial charter. During the Free Banking Era, state authorities were created with the sole purpose of issuing bank charters. Any private or municipal authority could operate a bank as long as it could satisfy a minimal set of conditions. The instability of the Free Banking Era was especially obvious in the state of Michigan, where the State legislature passed the General Banking Law of 1837. This law immediately transformed Michigan's banking industry. More than 55 banks were organized in Michigan within one year of the liberal banking law--most of them with the sole purpose of issuing paper money.
Almost all of the banks formed under Michigan's General Banking Law failed or went broke within two years. Some of these "broken banks" attempted to fool bank inspectors by keeping a barrel of nails with a top layer of gold coin as their "reserves." The Bank of Battle Creek, Michigan, had its teller, Tolman W. Hall, run out the back door whenever a noteholder would enter the bank. Another unscrupulous tactic was to locate banks' main offices in remote wilderness areas. These "wildcat banks" would often shuttle the same sack of coins from one location to another to convince the occasional bank inspector that the bank was solvent. One wildcat bank, the Farmers Bank of Sandstone, reportedly offered to redeem its notes in the local merchandise: a sandstone whetstone for each one-dollar note.
Quote from: Dreepa on May 18, 2006, 06:43 PM NHFT
I think this is why I avoided LP meetings all those years ago. It is the reason why I wasn't going to go to porcfest... I am afraid it will be an LP bitchfest.
be afraid
Quote from: Pat McCotter on May 18, 2006, 08:21 PM NHFT
paper money.
There's your problem! :)
As long as certificates can be counterfeited, they will be. They will always be easier and cheaper to counterfeit than precious metal coins.
It is much more difficult to counterfeit a precious metal coin. There are simple devices available that can do a decent validation of coins.
So when I buy a car I have to bring a truck full of silver?
Quote from: Dreepa on May 18, 2006, 09:04 PM NHFT
So when I buy a car I have to bring a truck full of silver?
I'll sell you a new car for 40 oz. of gold.
Why a currency at all? Stores use to have "house charge" accounts, where regular trusted customers charged items and paid monthly. (or whatever the agreed upon time frame was) Why not just set up a network of similar type charge accounts, payable to a single central place on a monthly basis? Payment could be in FRNs, silver/gold, or whatever is deemed acceptable. Stores would receive their payments on a monthly basis.
Quote from: Dreepa on May 18, 2006, 06:43 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 18, 2006, 06:29 PM NHFT
I hope you're not refering to me. I don't have a problem with JP trying to start his own currency project.
What I take issue with is somebody said we need a State currency.
And we don't. If NH secedes, it is the hope that NH won't take over that function of the fed. That people will be allowed to choose of their own accord which meadian(s) of exchange they want to use.
If some choose to use the NH GRanite, let them.
Tracy
Currency is number #998 on my list of things to fix.
I don't think that JP's Granite will ever take off.
I think that many people have libertarian pie in the sky ideas and bitch about all the problems and never do anything about it. They bitch unless it is 'pure'. Well I say make it better now and work for pure later.
For example....I am fighting for lower property taxes in my town... I am trying to get 0% increase for 2006-7. Others might say... it should be zero taxes IN reality that is not going to happen but there is a chance that we might have 0% increase.
Good for you. That's pretty much number 1 on my list too - getting rid of or lowering property taxes. I'm not knocking that.
I just don't see why we should work to create a NH money system, when it's just as easy to create a private one. Probably easier, you can just do it and no need for lobbying government. So bravo to JP, I hope he does well. And Bravo for you too.
I have money at number three on my list though. Right behind abolishing property taxes and government schools.
Tracy
Whether it's metals backed, or something else, one thing is for sure: Something good will develop in NH. With all the real money people moving in, it's inevitable. Competition will be the decider, and all the world will want our most popular currency. 8)
QuoteThat's pretty much number 1 on my list too - getting rid of or lowering property taxes. I'm not knocking that.
I just don't see why we should work to create a NH money system, when it's just as easy to create a private one.
combine the two...
lien your appreciating land values that are not the result of your labor but rather your neighbors' labor.
convert the liens to scrip and then share them equally with your neighbors (and they with you).
Quote from: FrankChodorov on May 19, 2006, 04:21 AM NHFT
lien your appreciating land values that are not the result of your labor but rather your neighbors' labor.
If the value appreciation is the result of your neighbor's labor, then it isn't your property so using that would be theft.
Quote from: Ron Helwig on May 19, 2006, 07:31 AM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on May 19, 2006, 04:21 AM NHFT
lien your appreciating land values that are not the result of your labor but rather your neighbors' labor.
If the value appreciation is the result of your neighbor's labor, then it isn't your property so using that would be theft.
today the claim is that ot is the landowner's property.
lien it and issue a non-redeemable scrip against it...
Quote from: FrankChodorov on May 19, 2006, 02:03 PM NHFT
today the claim is that ot is the landowner's property.
lien it and issue a non-redeemable scrip against it...
That sounds like fiat only worse man 8-)
Quote from: powerpenguin on May 19, 2006, 11:05 PM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on May 19, 2006, 02:03 PM NHFT
today the claim is that ot is the landowner's property.
lien it and issue a non-redeemable scrip against it...
That sounds like fiat only wors man 8-)
I view money as a pure social construct not as a store of value within the coins themselves or re-deemable...
Why is this a good idea? If it's not backed, you'll end up with a FRN like system.
The NHG's could be backed by granite...
I don't mean to be contrarian, especially because I'm still a bit new here and this is my first post of any length. However, seems to me that if the whole culture is getting ready to hit the wall at a high rate of speed with expected and disasterous consequences, one might do best to walk deliberately in the opposite direction.
America is in the jam she's in, to a significant degree, because her people can think of a whole lot more ways to spend money than they can figure ways to produce things or avoid spending money altogether. That's a fairly broad generalization, and it may not even apply to most of the people reading this post, but the fact remains that America -- and Americans -- are debtors. It doesn't matter whether that started from the top down (manipulations of fiat money, intrerest rates and energy & foreigh policy) or the bottom up (a population hooked on Starbucks and Circuit City, the latest twist on bread and circuses). The result is the same. We spend as much as or more than we earn -- and we don't save. Doesn't matter if you demoninate that reality in granites, liberty dollars, FRN's, silver coin, euros or glass beads.
People are traders and yes, we will always need to buy (and sell) things. The kids will always need new shoes. We don't grow wheat, oranges, spices or coffee in NH -- and even if we grew everything else we needed to eat in NH, we'd have to pay hard money for those things. Electricity, prescription meds, mortgages, these things will probably all need to be paid with the prevailing scrip (FRN).
When the fit hits the shan -- and we can all see that coming down the road -- people in the habit of spending little and saving much will ride out the storm much better than those living paycheck-to-paycheck. We'll see some very squirrelly things happen to fiat money, so it will probably do well to preserve savings by having a healthy chunk in silver. However, if fiat money goes down the tubes, the country will be in such a state of crisis -- and rattled nerves -- that few people will want to trust a new and relatively unknown currency. Hoping they will do so is a little like trying to cinvince people used to gold and silver that wampum -- or paper money -- is a good idea. Difficult at best, and impossible in a crisis.
There are many ways one can walk deliberately away from the direction the country is headed. Saving money and preserving it in precious metals seems to me a better way to do that than creating anoother kind of currency.
Just my opinion.
It is impossible for an empty sack to stand upright. -- Poor Richard
Quote from: Marcy on May 22, 2006, 05:10 AM NHFT
People are traders and yes, we will always need to buy (and sell) things. The kids will always need new shoes. We don't grow wheat, oranges, spices or coffee in NH -- and even if we grew everything else we needed to eat in NH, we'd have to pay hard money for those things. Electricity, prescription meds, mortgages, these things will probably all need to be paid with the prevailing scrip (FRN).
When the fit hits the shan -- and we can all see that coming down the road -- people in the habit of spending little and saving much will ride out the storm much better than those living paycheck-to-paycheck. We'll see some very squirrelly things happen to fiat money, so it will probably do well to preserve savings by having a healthy chunk in silver. However, if fiat money goes down the tubes, the country will be in such a state of crisis -- and rattled nerves -- that few people will want to trust a new and relatively unknown currency. Hoping they will do so is a little like trying to cinvince people used to gold and silver that wampum -- or paper money -- is a good idea. Difficult at best, and impossible in a crisis.
There are many ways one can walk deliberately away from the direction the country is headed. Saving money and preserving it in precious metals seems to me a better way to do that than creating anoother kind of currency.
Yay! And welcome.
I have found that almost everyone seems to know that gold and silver are money, even if they only recognize it subconsciously.
I seem to see hidden in your post the idea that we maybe should be spending a bit more time and effort on becoming producers. Good idea. I've been thinking about possible ways to use my property to produce, as well as to reduce its maintenance costs (such as electricity).
Gaining as much self-sufficiency as possible probably is the key to success in the coming years.
Sadly, I'm going to be in college for the next (few) years, and considering that the local university is giving me a free ride, it's seeming less and less likely that I will get into Dartmouth. Hopefully things will wait a few years and I can graduate, buy some land, and get somewhat prepared before things get too awful.
I still think that an electronic bartering currency would be cheapest and most sensible (as long as we can all retain our electricity, that is!)
Good to have you here in the discussion Marcy. Hope you will stick around this forum and keep the ideas rolling; that is a big way you can help the pro liberty fight, just by hanging out here. are you in-state or just in-terested?
Thanks, Dada and Ron.
I am one of the original 5,000 FSP voters, one who had no problem voting for NH since I'd already been comfortably relocated here for a decade (refugeed from the People's Republic of New York). My thirteen-year old daughter and I are owned by two cats and live in Concord. I hope to make a contribution here, such as it is.
M.
Cool. How is the Concord area? I'm currently a college student on the WC, but I'm thinking of moving there. Is it true that Concord is the most urban-like town in the state? (I'm used to living in places like San Diego and Seattle, just for some background)
LOL Concord is a city of around 50,000 that desperately hopes it gets to stay a small town. (Witness: law here stipulates that NO new building can be built taller than the Capitol, which puts everything at about 3 stories or under). Concord is charming and quirky and fairly expensive, as places to live go, rather pedestrian-friendly but choking on traffic. We have a law school here as well as a 2-year technical institute, but Concord does not come across as a "college town". If you're looking for urban, Manchester or Portsmouth might be more to your taste.
That is a great description of Concord.
I love downtown Concord. The main street reminds me 'of the old days'. (Which I never saw- you know tv memories).
Concord probably has about 10-20 Porcs by now.
Quote from: Marcy on May 22, 2006, 05:10 AM NHFT
America is in the jam she's in, to a significant degree, because her people can think of a whole lot more ways to spend money than they can figure ways to produce things or avoid spending money altogether. That's a fairly broad generalization, and it may not even apply to most of the people reading this post, but the fact remains that America -- and Americans -- are debtors.
It makes sense for us each to produce more than we consume.
Just because other americans and the government spends too much does not mean that we will all go down with the ship. I am not going to pay for the governments debts or other people's.
Quote from: Marcy on May 23, 2006, 09:19 PM NHFT
LOL Concord is a city of around 50,000 that desperately hopes it gets to stay a small town. (Witness: law here stipulates that NO new building can be built taller than the Capitol, which puts everything at about 3 stories or under). Concord is charming and quirky and fairly expensive, as places to live go, rather pedestrian-friendly but choking on traffic. We have a law school here as well as a 2-year technical institute, but Concord does not come across as a "college town". If you're looking for urban, Manchester or Portsmouth might be more to your taste.
Thanks for the info, Marcy. I'm saving up for the move in a few years, but I won't have tons of money being just out of college @ that point. What's the cost-of-living situation like in Nashua and Keene?
Quote from: Marcy on May 22, 2006, 05:10 AM NHFT
I don't mean to be contrarian, especially because I'm still a bit new here and this is my first post of any length. However, seems to me that if the whole culture is getting ready to hit the wall at a high rate of speed with expected and disasterous consequences, one might do best to walk deliberately in the opposite direction.
America is in the jam she's in, to a significant degree, because her people can think of a whole lot more ways to spend money than they can figure ways to produce things or avoid spending money altogether. That's a fairly broad generalization, and it may not even apply to most of the people reading this post, but the fact remains that America -- and Americans -- are debtors. It doesn't matter whether that started from the top down (manipulations of fiat money, intrerest rates and energy & foreigh policy) or the bottom up (a population hooked on Starbucks and Circuit City, the latest twist on bread and circuses). The result is the same. We spend as much as or more than we earn -- and we don't save. Doesn't matter if you demoninate that reality in granites, liberty dollars, FRN's, silver coin, euros or glass beads.
People are traders and yes, we will always need to buy (and sell) things. The kids will always need new shoes. We don't grow wheat, oranges, spices or coffee in NH -- and even if we grew everything else we needed to eat in NH, we'd have to pay hard money for those things. Electricity, prescription meds, mortgages, these things will probably all need to be paid with the prevailing scrip (FRN).
When the fit hits the shan -- and we can all see that coming down the road -- people in the habit of spending little and saving much will ride out the storm much better than those living paycheck-to-paycheck. We'll see some very squirrelly things happen to fiat money, so it will probably do well to preserve savings by having a healthy chunk in silver. However, if fiat money goes down the tubes, the country will be in such a state of crisis -- and rattled nerves -- that few people will want to trust a new and relatively unknown currency. Hoping they will do so is a little like trying to cinvince people used to gold and silver that wampum -- or paper money -- is a good idea. Difficult at best, and impossible in a crisis.
There are many ways one can walk deliberately away from the direction the country is headed. Saving money and preserving it in precious metals seems to me a better way to do that than creating anoother kind of currency.
Just my opinion.
It is impossible for an empty sack to stand upright. -- Poor Richard
A lot of the culter of buy now pay later is spawned by government manipulating the interest rates -- which does have a lot more to do with things then just the fact that it's denominated in FRNs.
But FRNs, are subject to inflation, which gold, and silver, really aren't that much. Because of that, it's makes economic sense to buy it now with an FRN, because 2 years from now it's going to cost a lot more.
The inflationary FRN's do discourage delayed gratification -- that which you say is the cause of these problems.
Great post by the way. I think that they sort of reinforce each other. Government easy money policies, encourage buy now, pay later instant gratification mentalities. (Government school do that too, BTW.) So they develope those mentalities, and they'd probably continue at this point even IF we did go b ack to a heavy mettal standard of some sort. In fact, because of the mentalities theire's even more pressure on the government to be even looser with it's monitary polilcies.
It becomes a cycle. We need to break the chain.
Tracy