Well, I'm working on the Independence website. I'm going to be composing a few articles, but I need HELP!
1) A banner! If you go to www.republicofnh.org/dotnetnuke you will see the pathetic banner I have designed. Anyone one to make one that's kind on the eyes for me? I'll upload it. My color scheme is blue, but I can go with gray if that works better.
2) Content, content, content. Especially you, Tracy. Where's that platform you've been working on?
Caleb
AHHH!!!!
I'm sorry. I've got lots of bits and pieces written, but nothing cohesive.
I have developed tendanitis in my pinkies to typing has been more dificult for me the past couple weeks. This happened while I was still working a full time job and then another 20 someplace else, all on the computer.
Posting a little bit on this forum here or there, is one thing.
But, I'll get it finished.
I'll try to have a rough draft for you buy the end of the month.
There's actually three articles that need to be writen.
This platform.
An article about how this is a Libertarian secession movement and that we DON"T want the State to take over functions of the federal government -- that individuals and businesses in the marketplace can provide all the things on their own the fed does.
And a FAQ about "what if the feds attack" and other such issues.
Whether this needs to be a big three part platform or 3 seperate articles I don't know, But I'll try to get the 1st part done be may.
Tracy
Tracy
Tracy
Well I've got the List of benefits done.
I've got the page about how federal functions shouldn't be taken over by the tate but should be private done.
I've got just 2 FAQs done.
I e-mailed all three pages of them too you. Read through them and let me know what you think. Then after you look at them and let me know what you think I'll post them here.
Tracy
its your page, but I would recommend losing the 9/11 links.
Quote from: BOVER on June 07, 2006, 06:56 AM NHFT
its your page, but I would recommend losing the 9/11 links.
I wouldn't. These links show people that secession is the only way to get away from a government that does nothing (at best) to protect their citizens and at worse they actively oppress us.
I would argue that it needs to be removed. Most people buy in to the government story, whether or not it is true. It'd be a miracle to convince anyone that we need to seceed AND that the gvt is somewhat implicable in 911. Baby steps!
I agree, you don't need the 9/11 links.
I went to the link in the top post, and did not see anything about 9/11, but if they are still there, I agree they should be removed. Don't dilute the secessionist message.
9-11 is one of the few issues with the power to change people's mind about secession ...
Why would I take down something so powerful?
Quote from: Dietrich Bonhoeffer on June 07, 2006, 02:39 PM NHFT
9-11 is one of the few issues with the power to change people's mind about secession ...
Why would I take down something so powerful?
Because most people view it as a conspiracy theory. Also it just isn't necessary.
I believe there is enough obvious unquestionable reasons why we should seceed.
The fact that we pay lots of taxes is not a conspiracy and most people would associate with that reason on a personal level. So, lets stick to real life, practical stuff, things that people actually notice in their day-to-day lives.
As stated above, it's your site, and we're all aware of how strongly you feel on the issue. My position is simply that 9/11 is a divisive issue. While some people may be turned on by it, others who might have come your way may choose not to based on their emotional response to it. (Irrational as it may be.)
I say stick with a sales pitch of why secession is the right choice for NH and the individual reading the page. How will secession benefit me?
I'm well aware that there are some very interesting questions and information floating around about 9/11, and I sure don't believe the government story. That said, I totally agree with Lex. Stick to the hard facts:
The government is bigger than ever.
The government is destroying liberty in the name of "security".
George Bush never vetoes a single bill.
etc. These are undeniable assertions.
If you're going the 9/11 route, ask yourself why you don't go all the way and provide links to all kinds of questionable "proof" that the government is evil:
"Chemtrails" and "Weather Modification"
Oklahoma City Bombing
Kennedy assasination plot and Operation Northwoods
...
Because I don't believe in Chemtrails.
Because most people suspect something is amiss with JFK, but its so far in the past it doesn't move them anymore.
Because Oklahoma City and Northwoods, etc are part of the 9-11 thing, so eventually that will come out. It's probably listed on some of the links I already have posted.
The 9-11 truth movement is gaining steam. I know very few people who know the truth about 9-11 and aren't in favor of secession. Like no other cause, it motivates them and causes them to realize just who we are dealing with.
This is no "Fisher Price Police State", as John Maltz is so fond of calling it. This was the burning of the Reichstag
Caleb
So, if another terrorist event happens, do we just suck up the government story and put our heads in the sand? How can we not demand justice on these issues? I can't become an accessory to a crime of this magnitude. It might not fit our liberty journey in some people's minds, but this is no reason not include folks who are pissed off about this issue. What if a government-terrorist event happened to anyone of us in NH? What if no one else cares about our situation or outcome? Are we still able and right in demanding justice?
Quote from: FSP-Rebel on June 07, 2006, 04:11 PM NHFT
I can't become an accessory to a crime of this magnitude.
Do you pay taxes?
Or, is the name of the game just to not look like conspiracy theorists? If there is no justice, how can we ever have liberty?
Quote from: Dietrich Bonhoeffer on June 07, 2006, 03:20 PM NHFT
Because I don't believe in Chemtrails.
Good to know, cause unlike the 9/11 allegations, there's not a shred of truth to Chemtrails, it's total kook paranoia!
http://freetalklive.com/files/FTLpromokooktrails.mp3
Caleb when did you become a Bonhoffer fan :P
:)
TRacy
Quote from: Dietrich Bonhoeffer on June 07, 2006, 02:39 PM NHFT
9-11 is one of the few issues with the power to change people's mind about secession ...
Why would I take down something so powerful?
Because it will turn off a lot of people who would otherwise might entertain the idea of secession.
For example, you could put religious stuff up there too. But then you lose all the people who don't agree with your religous views. Because the more issues you include, the more people you exlude.
Well said, Bover. Keep it simple!
I say just link here, then they can discover all kinds of things on their own volition.
I'd start with we (NH) are (and have always been) an independant republic.
We have every right to be independent; and of right ought to be.
I'm new to these forums ala FSP linking and I have been reading over this thread for a while. I do not live in NH but would consider a move if secession were to become likely.
1) You will be dealing with alot of people with a lot of questions and it would serve the best purpose to have answers. To another poster's point of keeping it simple to avoid over-exclusion, I would agree. Create a high level document citing the reasons and purpose, then link deeper into the topics.
2) When linking deeper into the issue from the "overview", you are really going to need to flesh out some details. First, there is no description of how or why the state exists - if we are talking a libertarian government, people need to know, what is the government for? What services does the government provide? What common things are still going to be handled by the government? I noticed "Roads" was on subtopic, but what about other services such as managing passports?
3) NH citizens been paying into social security for years... what will happen to all that money pumped into social security? To this I offer the suggestion that NH not pay the federal government for any of the roads but rather social security benefits lost in the secession (because the fed will never cough up that money) be used as the means for securing the highways through NH. It would be a touchy issue but SS must be considered as I am sure that there are many in NH who depend on Social Security checks. In the privatization of the highway system, in lieu of paying the constiuents directly, they would be given shares in the private organizations created. This is why I like the investment vehicles called REITs or Real Estate Investment Trusts which are required to return all profits to shareholders in a given reporting period.
4) Stock exchange - how fluid will it be to move money into and out of the ROUS (rest of US) markets? Will NH develop an exchange for NH businesses to raise capital?
5) A free standing citizen militia is a great idea with the exception being that with the advanced nature of today's militaries, I think it is a bit short-sighted to have an untrained citizen militia. For the common good (dirty words, I know) it would serve better purpose that in order to have a free-standing citizen militia that there be some form of free, at-will organization and training provided to the citizens on a regular basis to ensure preparedness in the event of need of a military. Even guerilla warfare uses loose forms of organization to accomplish a task. liberal gun rights will not ensure safety.
6) The exiling of Maine - looking at a map of the US, I can't help but notice that Maine will be cut off from her country and this will present problems for not only Maine but the US as well.
7) Airspace constraints - how will NH work with airlines to ensure a workable solution to integrate flights in and out of NH? Will NH have an international airport for citizens?
8) Governments can be useful in providing some programs or incentives for development. While I'm sure there is plenty of space in NH for growth, programs such as an "up not out" program would help to keep cities condensed. This would help in a way to ensure that certain municipal functions such as water and sewage can be effectively managed in a given space. In some instances, it would be difficult to privatize sewage and water treatment without giving some business a neo-monopoly within a municipality.
9) No income taxes - great idea but how will the new republic fund limited state services? Will it be done through property taxes? Sales tax?
10) Passports are nothing unique to the US as you well know. Some form of passport system will need to be developed. I would say, in lieu of a state ID or diver's license, bundle the license and the passport into a single document. One fee and that is all.
11) International support - While the UN is a bad thing, gaining enough movement to gain international support will be difficult. We're talking about taking on the world's largest superpower. Our earliest government had international support from France which played a pivotal part in organizing our military into a more effective machine.
12) Expelling the federal government from NH - this will be difficult as there are probably many NH residents who are employed by the fed and there are branches of the IRS, FBI and other federal organizations that would have to be expelled or given the offer to stay contingent they leave their positions in the federal government....
Maybe I'm over thinking it but this is just my input.... I'm not trying to flame or anything but wanted to give something to the topic.
Great questions!
I would say we could add these to the list of faqs, and I'll try to work on them myself, or someone else can.
The basic document is the Declaration of Independence. I'm having that worked on right now by a friend of mine, and hopefully others will volunteer to tweak it to. I'd like to then have a document which documents the evidence for the basic charges.
Tracey's platform addresses some of the main benefits
Obviously, there will be problems. One of them, from my perspective, is how to handle the currency issue. I don't think that we necessarily need the government to back the currency; in fact, that would be a short-sighted answer, because governments have a long history of destroying their currencies. But what we will need is leadership on this issue. Someone needs to step forward with a concrete plan - and it does no good to simply say, "We'll use gold and silver." That may, indeed, be a legitimate answer, but to convince people, you need to show them the "how". A generic answer won't work, we'll need specific answers to specific problems. Although the FAQs might be good for addressing these issues, it wouldn't hurt to work on a document that can go into detail.
I'm also working on a document right now to explain why secession is the ONLY answer (as opposed to simply reforming the current system).
This project involves anyone who wants to join. I'm not the dictator here; I just own the website, but I'll go along with what the majority think.
My personal opinion is that 9-11 is one of the major themes that will actually make independence happen, once it works its way into the national consciousness. It is slowly becoming mainstream, and my personal opinion is that 9-11 raises a question that no one is really answering: IF the government did this to us, what do we do? If we are able to meet that with a definite plan of action (namely, dissolving the Union, or individual state secession) then by default our response becomes inevitably linked with the issue. When people think "9-11" I want them to also think "secession".
At any rate, just my thoughts ...
Caleb
Quote from: aoco on June 09, 2006, 08:56 PM NHFT
I'm new to these forums ala FSP linking and I have been reading over this thread for a while. I do not live in NH but would consider a move if secession were to become likely.
1) You will be dealing with alot of people with a lot of questions and it would serve the best purpose to have answers. To another poster's point of keeping it simple to avoid over-exclusion, I would agree. Create a high level document citing the reasons and purpose, then link deeper into the topics.
2) When linking deeper into the issue from the "overview", you are really going to need to flesh out some details. First, there is no description of how or why the state exists - if we are talking a libertarian government, people need to know, what is the government for? What services does the government provide? What common things are still going to be handled by the government? I noticed "Roads" was on subtopic, but what about other services such as managing passports?
3) NH citizens been paying into social security for years... what will happen to all that money pumped into social security? To this I offer the suggestion that NH not pay the federal government for any of the roads but rather social security benefits lost in the secession (because the fed will never cough up that money) be used as the means for securing the highways through NH. It would be a touchy issue but SS must be considered as I am sure that there are many in NH who depend on Social Security checks. In the privatization of the highway system, in lieu of paying the constiuents directly, they would be given shares in the private organizations created. This is why I like the investment vehicles called REITs or Real Estate Investment Trusts which are required to return all profits to shareholders in a given reporting period.
4) Stock exchange - how fluid will it be to move money into and out of the ROUS (rest of US) markets? Will NH develop an exchange for NH businesses to raise capital?
5) A free standing citizen militia is a great idea with the exception being that with the advanced nature of today's militaries, I think it is a bit short-sighted to have an untrained citizen militia. For the common good (dirty words, I know) it would serve better purpose that in order to have a free-standing citizen militia that there be some form of free, at-will organization and training provided to the citizens on a regular basis to ensure preparedness in the event of need of a military. Even guerilla warfare uses loose forms of organization to accomplish a task. liberal gun rights will not ensure safety.
6) The exiling of Maine - looking at a map of the US, I can't help but notice that Maine will be cut off from her country and this will present problems for not only Maine but the US as well.
7) Airspace constraints - how will NH work with airlines to ensure a workable solution to integrate flights in and out of NH? Will NH have an international airport for citizens?
8) Governments can be useful in providing some programs or incentives for development. While I'm sure there is plenty of space in NH for growth, programs such as an "up not out" program would help to keep cities condensed. This would help in a way to ensure that certain municipal functions such as water and sewage can be effectively managed in a given space. In some instances, it would be difficult to privatize sewage and water treatment without giving some business a neo-monopoly within a municipality.
9) No income taxes - great idea but how will the new republic fund limited state services? Will it be done through property taxes? Sales tax?
10) Passports are nothing unique to the US as you well know. Some form of passport system will need to be developed. I would say, in lieu of a state ID or diver's license, bundle the license and the passport into a single document. One fee and that is all.
11) International support - While the UN is a bad thing, gaining enough movement to gain international support will be difficult. We're talking about taking on the world's largest superpower. Our earliest government had international support from France which played a pivotal part in organizing our military into a more effective machine.
12) Expelling the federal government from NH - this will be difficult as there are probably many NH residents who are employed by the fed and there are branches of the IRS, FBI and other federal organizations that would have to be expelled or given the offer to stay contingent they leave their positions in the federal government....
Maybe I'm over thinking it but this is just my input.... I'm not trying to flame or anything but wanted to give something to the topic.
Thanks for the FAQs
Regarding Taxes. The NH government is already bloated. And it doesn't need to take over any of the Federal government functions. So why would it need any more money or need any different taxes besidees what it already has?
I'm going to go through and try to answer these as detailed as possible -- from an Austro-libertarian framework.
Regarding Guns and private militias. Private militias would be allowed to have anti-aircraft missiles, and all the same types of weapons that modern "government" soldiers have now.
Perhaps people would need to be educated about the "Myth of national Defence"
Plus New Hampshire would still have it's State Police.
Tracy
Quote from: aoco on June 09, 2006, 08:56 PM NHFT
I'm new to these forums ala FSP linking and I have been reading over this thread for a while. I do not live in NH but would consider a move if secession were to become likely.
Would you move if you could help secession become a reality? Please do!
And, welcome to the underground! Let me give you your first karma point, for your first post. :)
This isn't really my thread (nor even my goal), but I'll chime in on a few of the questions you list.
Quote
3) NH citizens been paying into social security for years... what will happen to all that money pumped into social security?
The same thing that will happen to the SS money of anyone more than 20 year from retirement: it will not exist. I'm 43. I do not plan on having SS when I retire.
Quote
5) A free standing citizen militia is a great idea with the exception being that with the advanced nature of today's militaries, I think it is a bit short-sighted to have an untrained citizen militia.
When people realize they are responsible for their own defense (both personal self defense, and defense of their neighbors), there will be a reawakening of interest in serious militia training.
Quote
6) The exiling of Maine - looking at a map of the US, I can't help but notice that Maine will be cut off from her country and this will present problems for not only Maine but the US as well.
You mean like Alaska or Hawaii? Or some of the Great Lakes communities that are only accessible from Canada? Or Puerto Rico, USVI, Northern Marianna Islands, etc.?
They seem to survive just fine.
Thanks, you've given very good input. I hope you'll stick around and participate in the forum. And move to NH! We need more people who can think this way!
Kevin
Quote from: aoco on June 09, 2006, 08:56 PM NHFT
6) The exiling of Maine - looking at a map of the US, I can't help but notice that Maine will be cut off from her country and this will present problems for not only Maine but the US as well.
the Second Vermont Republic wants to confederate with NH, Maine and the Canadian Maritimes to form a new country the size of Denmark that acts like the Swiss Canton system & original articles of confederation except that the locus of power would be at the municipal level similar also to the city/state notion & Jeffersonian ward republicanism.
Well, we don't want to. We want to be completely independent. We don't care to be confederated with socialist countries like Vermont or the Canada Maritimes.
Main can do what it wants. If it wants to secede and confederate with you and Canada, fine. If it wants to stay part of the US, fine. If it wants to secede and be it's own independent country that would be wonderful. It doesn't matter. Regardless, whatever they decide to do, it won't make a whole lot of difference as far as NH secession is concerned.
Tracy
QuoteWell, we don't want to
you mean you don't want to right?
I didn't know you were speaking for the group...I thought libertarians didn't believe in "groups"?
you're a moron Bill.
Caleb, myself, Russle, etc. and the rest of the people organizing this Republic of New Hampshire don't want too.
Those are all individuals.
Go get a brain, and quit looking for straw men where there aren't any.
Tracy
Sorry to respond so late, I've been out of town on some business... I have about another year and a half of school and unfortunately, I really am not in a position of jumping ship just yet... I've got a great job with a decent company and I need to finish the degree so I would have a greater chance of making close to what I'm making now. But I'm getting itchy as Omaha (where I live) is on the brink of passing anti-smoking laws and there is nothing to stop it. It just brought to mind that we are living exactly what John Stuart Mills described as a Tyranny of the Majority.
Once I finish my degree, I am looking at the northeast for grad school... maybe dartmouth if I can muster the cash and test scores....
By the way, I came up with another question/point it would be nice to smooth over:
Many people in NH I am sure are proud to be American. That being said, in order to bolster support, it may help to make a transitional statement about how there is nothing more American than the idea of liberty and freedom. Basically - ease people into the transition that if they were to no longer be "Americans", they would be a part of a country that is far better.
Quote from: aoco on June 22, 2006, 12:47 AM NHFT
. I have about another year and a half of school and unfortunately, I really am not in a position of jumping ship just yet..
1.5 years means you could sign... first 1000 pledge.
www.pledgebank.com/first1000
Quote from: aoco on June 22, 2006, 12:47 AM NHFT
Once I finish my degree, I am looking at the northeast for grad school... maybe dartmouth if I can muster the cash and test scores....
I don't know what you'd be looking to study, but Umass-Lowell is a short drive from the NH border had has a great engineering program. UNH's grad program is well-known for what I'm considering (U.S. history). Just in case Dartmouth doesn't work out, there are a lot of great grad programs in and around NH.
I'm somewhat torn - I'm thinking Philosophy or Economics. I want to go economics but I know I'd kill myself with the typical math reqs. I can usually get by but it isn't my strong suit. Unfortunately most economics programs seem to deal more with math than I guess what they call applied economics - or more of the theory, history and conceptual parts.
After you get through all that become an Austrian Economicist. Hardly any math at all :)
Tracy
It seems "real life" when people are killed.
Quote from: aoco on June 09, 2006, 08:56 PM NHFT
6) The exiling of Maine - looking at a map of the US, I can't help but notice that Maine will be cut off from her country and this will present problems for not only Maine but the US as well.
Not any more than Alaska
Quote from: tracysaboe on June 10, 2006, 03:07 PM NHFT
you're a moron Bill.
Caleb, myself, Russle, etc. and the rest of the people organizing this Republic of New Hampshire don't want too.
Who is this Russle of which you speak?
Bill doesn't seem like an moron to me.
I am a supporter of the Republic of NH over the US empire ..... I am not an organizer. I am too controversial. :)
Russell:
Caleb had said he was sending you a copy of the platform to look at before I posted it here so I naturally assumed you were part of this. (Although I was a bit surprised. ) Perhaps this is just Caleb and Me. In that case Caleb and me is the we of which I speak.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on June 28, 2006, 01:37 AM NHFT
Russell:
Caleb had said he was sending you a copy of the platform to look at before I posted it here so I naturally assumed you were part of this. (Although I was a bit surprised. ) Perhaps this is just Caleb and Me. In that case Caleb and me is the we of which I speak.
I don't believe Caleb thinks I am a moron either...
Quote from: tracysaboe on June 28, 2006, 01:37 AM NHFT
Russell:
Caleb had said he was sending you a copy of the platform to look at before I posted it here so I naturally assumed you were part of this.
Sure ..... but I am not in charge or anything. I support the effort. :)
Quote from: FrankChodorov on June 28, 2006, 05:44 AM NHFT
I don't believe Caleb thinks I am a moron either...
Frank .... you seem like a decent guy ...... but that Bill G fellow ..... what a loon. ;)
Quote from: russellkanning on June 28, 2006, 09:10 AM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on June 28, 2006, 05:44 AM NHFT
I don't believe Caleb thinks I am a moron either...
Frank .... you seem like a decent guy ...... but that Bill G fellow ..... what a loon. ;)
hey, loons are an indigenous bird to NH lakes and were featured in the movie "On Golden Pond"...
I bet he would take that as a compliment!
Actually if you check your reading comprehension you see that the "we" refered to us not wanting to be a part of your little socialist confederation, not your moronishness.
Tracy
confederation is based on reciprocity...the base of power remains at the town meeting level.
in the republic of NH will not towns confederate in some way?
socialism is generally thought of as the collective ownership of the means of production - land, labor, capital.
can you specifically cite a posting where I have ever argued for the collective ownership of anything?
Your "Vermont" secessionist movement is largely a socialist movement.
We don't want NH confederating with that. Or any of the other socialist secessionist movements you want to confederate with.
Again, brush up on your reading comprehension.
Tracy
Walter Williams:
"There is a glimmer of hope in the horizon," Williams said after mentioning how the balanced budget amendment that he co-authored with several other prominent thinkers failed to pass Congress in the 1980s and 90s. That hope is the Free State Project, a private group of conservatives and libertarians that are attempting to woo 20,000 like-minded citizens to move to New Hampshire. Once there, they will restore a government that only protects individual liberties in both state and federal government.
Williams also voiced his support for the possibility of state secession. "There would have been no union if states didn't believe they had the right to secede," he said. Without secession, "then there's no limit to what the federal government can do. It's like telling my wife that she can't divorce me."
http://www.theeveningbulletin.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17272218&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=6
Quote from: tracysaboe on June 30, 2006, 02:14 AM NHFT
Your "Vermont" secessionist movement is largely a socialist movement.
We don't want NH confederating with that. Or any of the other socialist secessionist movements you want to confederate with.
Again, brush up on your reading comprehension.
if it was a "socialist" secessionist movement then why have Thomas DiLorenzo & Marco Bassani from the Von Mises Institute...
Marco Bassani on Jefferson:
http://www.mises.org/story/964 (http://www.mises.org/story/964)
and Jason Sorens signed on to the Advisory Board?
Because they support secession whether or not it's socialist and they'd like to see a seccessionist movement secede.
I hope they succeded at seceding as well.
That doesn't me we want NH to confederate with them when they do.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on October 03, 2006, 09:15 AM NHFT
Because they support secession whether or not it's socialist
well you obviously have no idea what the definition of socialism is...
socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).
Quote from: FrankChodorov on June 28, 2006, 09:19 AM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on June 28, 2006, 09:10 AM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on June 28, 2006, 05:44 AM NHFT
I don't believe Caleb thinks I am a moron either...
Frank .... you seem like a decent guy ...... but that Bill G fellow ..... what a loon. ;)
hey, loons are an indigenous bird to NH lakes and were featured in the movie "On Golden Pond"...
. . . which, of course, was loosely based on the life of a guy, and filmed on, a lake in Maine, not too far from where I am right now!
I don't think Frank is a moron.
I
DO think there is some terribly moronic spelling hereabouts!
Quotewhich, of course, was loosely based on the life of a guy, and filmed on, a lake in Maine, not too far from where I am right now!
actually the film was shot on location at Squam Lake in NH.
http://www.nh.gov/film/ogp/bryson_01.htm (http://www.nh.gov/film/ogp/bryson_01.htm)
QuoteI don't think Frank is a moron.
thanks...neither does my wife.
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 03, 2006, 10:01 AM NHFT
Quotewhich, of course, was loosely based on the life of a guy, and filmed on, a lake in Maine, not too far from where I am right now!
actually the film was shot on location at Squam Lake in NH.
http://www.nh.gov/film/ogp/bryson_01.htm (http://www.nh.gov/film/ogp/bryson_01.htm)
QuoteI don't think Frank is a moron.
thanks...neither does my wife.
OK, but written by a guy based on his experiences at this camp right down the road!
???
BTW, Tracy,
Here's the Vermont Independence Resolution. The economic solidarity sounds ominous, but the wording excludes coercion.
All in all, a concept I find more appealing than the FSP.
-disclaimer: I am no fan of coercive political systems, but absent a free society of self governors, a devolution to local autonomy seems the least evil.http://barrysblogsspecialfeatures.blogspot.com/2005/11/vermont-independence-resolution.html (http://barrysblogsspecialfeatures.blogspot.com/2005/11/vermont-independence-resolution.html)
QuoteHere's the Vermont Independence Resolution. The economic solidarity sounds ominous, but the wording excludes coercion.
All in all, a concept I find more appealing than the FSP. -disclaimer: I am no fan of coercive political systems, but absent a free society of self governors, a devolution to local autonomy seems the least evil.
btw - the link you provided does not have the updated version...
http://www.vermontrepublic.org/about (http://www.vermontrepublic.org/about)
Members of the Second Vermont Republic subscribe to the following set of principles:
1. Political Independence. Our primary objectives are political independence for Vermont and the peaceful dissolution of the Union.
2. Human Scale. We believe life should be lived on a human scale. Small is still beautiful.
3. Sustainability. We celebrate and support Vermont's small, clean, green, sustainable, socially responsible towns, farms, businesses, schools, and churches. We encourage family-owned farms and businesses to produce innovative, premium-quality, healthy products. We also believe that energy independence is an essential goal towards which to strive.
4. Economic Solidarity. We encourage Vermonters to buy locally produced products from small local merchants rather than purchase from giant, out-of-state megastores. We support trade with nearby states and provinces.
5. Power Sharing. Vermont's strong democratic tradition is grounded in its town meetings . We favor devolution of political power from the state back to local communities, making the governing structure for towns, schools, hospitals, and social services much like that of Switzerland. Shared power also underlies our approach to international relations.
6. Equal Access. We support equal access for all Vermont citizens to quality education, health care, housing, and employment.
7. Tension Reduction. Consistent with Vermont's long tradition of "live and let live" and nonviolence, we do not condone state-sponsored violence inflicted either by the military or law enforcement officials. We support a voluntary citizens' brigade to reduce tension and restore order in the event of political unrest and to provide assistance when natural disasters occur. We are opposed to any form of military conscription. Tension reduction is the bedrock principle on which all international conflicts are to be resolved.
8. Mutuality. Both our citizens and our neighbors should be treated with mutual respect.
I'm all for local control. But it seems to me the state is incharge of designating the bounderies of the individual "local control" by defining the boundaries and how many shiers they are in accordence with their definitions of existing bio-regions.
I'm sorry, but if the state is defining the boundaries of the decentralization, that still sounds like a lot of State control to me.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on October 03, 2006, 10:36 AM NHFT
I'm all for local control. But it seems to me the state is incharge of designating the bounderies of the individual "local control" by defining the boundaries and how many shiers they are in accordence with their definitions of existing bio-regions.
I'm sorry, but if the state is defining the boundaries of the decentralization, that still sounds like a lot of State control to me.
bio-regions are based on flora and fauna plus watersheds...not political lines.
But a political body is the entity drawing those lines regardless of what they're based on.
Whenever something is done by government, it get's political. The idea that government can do anything "scientifically" reaks of the Scientific socialism that Lenon praised about Communism.
True decentralization is when the decentralized bodies decide on their own what their own boundaries are.
Tracy
I'm all for the secession of NH in any form. We all must come together and realize that a independant NH would not be one person's vision, but the collective ideas of all those who wish to secede.
An independant NH would need some form of government structure. If we had no representatives besides the private sector, NH would be raped by all those around us (even more than it already is). Hell, the US would probably declare us a district rather than a state. Remember, we are supposed to be the government. We don't need to elect billionaires to decide issues for us. Towns could vote on issues that concern them, and we all could vote on issues that affect all towns.
For those who reject goverment entirely here is my solution: within the Free NH, you have the right to not be governed if you choose so. Any piece of property could be declared a "government free zone". That means no taxes, ultimate privacy, and no rules to dictate what you can or can't do (unless you are violating others constitutional rights). This also means no services, no representation, and it means ultimate personal liability. (Your fuckups are your problems)
I hope this will help bridge the gap between us "socialists" and you "anarchists". We really do need the ideas of us both to make this thing work.
QuoteI hope this will help bridge the gap between us "socialists" and you "anarchists". We really do need the ideas of us both to make this thing work.
how do you deal with negative and positive externalities?
Quote from: tracysaboe on October 03, 2006, 10:36 AM NHFT
I'm all for local control. But it seems to me the state is incharge of designating the bounderies of the individual "local control" by defining the boundaries and how many shiers they are in accordence with their definitions of existing bio-regions.
I'm sorry, but if the state is defining the boundaries of the decentralization, that still sounds like a lot of State control to me.
Tracy
You got it Tracy. Just because its says "secessionist" on the label, doesn't mean it's going to be free. There is usually some megalomaniac behind it all with a 'plan'.
The FSP is more loosely defined and everyone can work together or as individuals from one group to another. There are no boundaries and no socialistic demands to be met.
Tracy can't spell but he's very smart. ^-^
Quote from: tracysaboe on June 10, 2006, 02:42 PM NHFT
Well, we don't want to. We want to be completely independent. We don't care to be confederated with socialist countries like Vermont or the Canada Maritimes.
Main can do what it wants. If it wants to secede and confederate with you and Canada, fine. If it wants to stay part of the US, fine. If it wants to secede and be it's own independent country that would be wonderful. It doesn't matter. Regardless, whatever they decide to do, it won't make a whole lot of difference as far as NH secession is concerned.
Tracy
Secession is not secession if it's joining Vt or Canada. It's straying far from the FSP NH focus. Keep it NH. Keep it about NH.
Quote from: CNHT on October 10, 2006, 09:44 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on June 10, 2006, 02:42 PM NHFT
Well, we don't want to. We want to be completely independent. We don't care to be confederated with socialist countries like Vermont or the Canada Maritimes.
Main can do what it wants. If it wants to secede and confederate with you and Canada, fine. If it wants to stay part of the US, fine. If it wants to secede and be it's own independent country that would be wonderful. It doesn't matter. Regardless, whatever they decide to do, it won't make a whole lot of difference as far as NH secession is concerned.
Tracy
Secession is not secession if it's joining Vt or Canada. It's straying far from the FSP NH focus. Keep it NH. Keep it about NH.
do you even understand what confedration means?
as in the articles of confederation?
Quote from: CNHT on October 10, 2006, 09:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on October 03, 2006, 10:36 AM NHFT
I'm all for local control. But it seems to me the state is incharge of designating the bounderies of the individual "local control" by defining the boundaries and how many shiers they are in accordence with their definitions of existing bio-regions.
I'm sorry, but if the state is defining the boundaries of the decentralization, that still sounds like a lot of State control to me.
Tracy
You got it Tracy. Just because its says "secessionist" on the label, doesn't mean it's going to be free. There is usually some megalomaniac behind it all with a 'plan'.
The FSP is more loosely defined and everyone can work together or as individuals from one group to another. There are no boundaries and no socialistic demands to be met.
Jane are you an anarchist like Tracy?
there is no "man with a plan"
the SVR is a secessionist movement without a prescription and a nationally recognized publication (VT Commons) where people can openly discuss what their hopes are for the republic and a nationally known advisor board.
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 10, 2006, 02:07 PM NHFT
QuoteI hope this will help bridge the gap between us "socialists" and you "anarchists". We really do need the ideas of us both to make this thing work.
how do you deal with negative and positive externalities?
Frank,
I'm pretty new here, and I could be wrong, but I think the reason you get so much grief and negative karma is because you always post in this particularly annoying form of gobbledygook economic-speak. Your posts need an appended glossary.
Remember, some of us haven't been exposed to this stuff since college, some decades ago. Others, probably never.
:-\
I don't let Frankenbilly's posts bother me anymore. I have him on ignore.
If you come to NH and work with our group(s) you don't need to join nor secede, you can just help people and get things done for the state of NH!
No other committment required!
Quote from: maineiac on October 11, 2006, 08:43 AM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 10, 2006, 02:07 PM NHFT
QuoteI hope this will help bridge the gap between us "socialists" and you "anarchists". We really do need the ideas of us both to make this thing work.
how do you deal with negative and positive externalities?
Frank,
I'm pretty new here, and I could be wrong, but I think the reason you get so much grief and negative karma is because you always post in this particularly annoying form of gobbledygook economic-speak. Your posts need an appended glossary.
Remember, some of us haven't been exposed to this stuff since college, some decades ago. Others, probably never.
:-\
the concept of externalities is a pretty standard term within the study of economics and a quick search on wiki will usually be relatively accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality)
In economics, an externality is a side effect from one activity which has consequences for another activity but is not reflected in market prices. Externalities can be either positive, when an external benefit is generated, or negative, when an external cost is generated from a market transaction.
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 11, 2006, 10:10 AM NHFT
Quote from: maineiac on October 11, 2006, 08:43 AM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 10, 2006, 02:07 PM NHFT
QuoteI hope this will help bridge the gap between us "socialists" and you "anarchists". We really do need the ideas of us both to make this thing work.
how do you deal with negative and positive externalities?
Frank,
I'm pretty new here, and I could be wrong, but I think the reason you get so much grief and negative karma is because you always post in this particularly annoying form of gobbledygook economic-speak. Your posts need an appended glossary.
Remember, some of us haven't been exposed to this stuff since college, some decades ago. Others, probably never.
:-\
the concept of externalities is a pretty standard term within the study of economics and a quick search on wiki will usually be relatively accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality)
In economics, an externality is a side effect from one activity which has consequences for another activity but is not reflected in market prices. Externalities can be either positive, when an external benefit is generated, or negative, when an external cost is generated from a market transaction.
In that case, you just deal with them, no coercive collective required. Freely entered associations are OK by me, though!
Incidentally, wikis are fine, but I don't necessarily consider them accurate.
QuoteIn that case, you just deal with them, no coercive collective required. Freely entered associations are OK by me, though!
but that is the point - your freely entered associations to transact subjects a third party (me) to the costs (negative externalities) as in pollution...the cost can only be paid by violating my absolute right to the fruits of my labor and thus self-ownership itself.
inorder for that - violating the fundamental tenet of libertarianism - not to happen we have to devise a system that internalizes the externalities at the point of sale (in the price).
the root cause was the neo-classical/marginalist utility/austrian school revolution in economics of which I dare say almost every right libertarian on this board takes as the absolute truth.
QuoteIncidentally, wikis are fine, but I don't necessarily consider them accurate.
that is why a used two qualifiers "usually" and "relatively" before accurate...
It would be best to keep the Federal Government "external" to NH. :)
All I'm saying is that some "form" of government would be needed after secession. But, I think that if someone wants to not be governed, than that should be thier right.
To be more specific, if someone wanted to claim their property a "government free zone", they wouldn't contribute to the government financially, and they would not recieve anything in return.
No police, fire, education, road maintenance, town water, grants, etc. They would take the responsibility of providing those things for themselves. This would especially work well for small self sufficient communities.
As far as contributing to the economy, they could still work and spend money if the currency was based upon the productivity of the people and companies within the "country, nation, confederacy, (whatever is PC this week). Forget about Federal value, or Federal backing.
Let's face it, if we secede, NH will need much more local support from things that we normally buy from abroad. The economy will not succeed if the Free NH has the unbalanced trade deficits of our current nation. Working together as a people would have to be our strongest trait. That is why I was trying to brush aside the big hairy elephant in the forum: "socialists" vs. "anarchists".
QuoteLet's face it, if we secede, NH will need much more local support from things that we normally buy from abroad.
I don't know about that. With-out all those federal tarrifs, it could potentially be much much cheeper (half price or less on many goods) to purchase abroad then it doesn now.
Tracy
I know alot of people in this forum love free trade, but I don't. If I buy one more piece of crap made in China that breaks in two days after purchase, I'm going to scream. My parents have a Magnavox TV from 30 years ago, still works fine.
The last time that I went clothes shopping I started to tear up a little. Jeans made in Pakistan, Columbia, Mexico, all selling for $40. The cotton is grown and processed here, and then shipped abroad. They throw it together with child labor at pennies on the dollar and then sell it to me at ridiculous profit. A couple of washes later they'll start to unseam somewhere.
To me, Free Trade seems like something out of the NWO playbook. It organizes the world into roles. Poor countries have been industrialized into the product machines, while our economy has turned solely into a service economy where we buy or sell the products. I don't want to be a damn product server. Let's provide for ourselves and build ourselves up stronger.
Sorry about the tangent, let's get back to this Republic of NH thing.
Quote from: mr.apathy on October 14, 2006, 12:59 PM NHFT
I know alot of people in this forum love free trade, but I don't. If I buy one more piece of crap made in China that breaks in two days after purchase, I'm going to scream. My parents have a Magnavox TV from 30 years ago, still works fine.
The last time that I went clothes shopping I started to tear up a little. Jeans made in Pakistan, Columbia, Mexico, all selling for $40. The cotton is grown and processed here, and then shipped abroad. They throw it together with child labor at pennies on the dollar and then sell it to me at ridiculous profit. A couple of washes later they'll start to unseam somewhere.
To me, Free Trade seems like something out of the NWO playbook. It organizes the world into roles. Poor countries have been industrialized into the product machines, while our economy has turned solely into a service economy where we buy or sell the products. I don't want to be a damn product server. Let's provide for ourselves and build ourselves up stronger.
Sorry about the tangent, let's get back to this Republic of NH thing.
Mr. you are right about free trade being under the auspices of the NWO/UN, so what is the solution? What do you think about the superhighway to connect Mexico, US and Canada?
Also, I buy most of my clothes from Land's End. The prices are reasonable and they do not fall apart no matter where they are made. If they do, they will replace them for you. Sure you can find cheaper things, but they do rip in one use sometimes so the few dollars you save is not worth it.
Men can get their whole wardrobe from LE, and ordering from the catalog is so simple once you know your size.
Since the Bush's and Clinton signed the Free Trade agreements of the 90's, products are getting lower in quality, and with inflation as out of control as it is, the prices really aren't any better than they were before.
I'm by no means an economist. But from a glance it appears not to be working. I would slowly abolish it, one market at a time. Give tax incentives to companies so they could build and operate here. If the taxes were lower for the companies, maybe it would'nt be so much of a burden to pay a living wage to workers. But alas, that is the key problem with free trade: unethical decision making for a profit.
Thanks for the heads up on LE, I'll check it out.
Quote from: mr.apathy on October 14, 2006, 01:27 PM NHFT
Since the Bush's and Clinton signed the Free Trade agreements of the 90's, products are getting lower in quality, and with inflation as out of control as it is, the prices really aren't any better than they were before.
I'm by no means an economist. But from a glance it appears not to be working. I would slowly abolish it, one market at a time. Give tax incentives to companies so they could build and operate here. If the taxes were lower for the companies, maybe it would'nt be so much of a burden to pay a living wage to workers. But alas, that is the key problem with free trade: unethical decision making for a profit.
Thanks for the heads up on LE, I'll check it out.
Cool. I so love a man dressed in Land's End! I have a closet full of those clothes, alas, the last thing I could not part with...from my late husband.
QuoteGive tax incentives to companies so they could build and operate here.
how about just stop subsidizing globalization?
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 14, 2006, 02:09 PM NHFT
QuoteGive tax incentives to companies so they could build and operate here.
how about just stop subsidizing globalization?
I am all for stopping ALL corporate and farming subsidies.
Quote from: Dreepa on October 14, 2006, 02:29 PM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 14, 2006, 02:09 PM NHFT
QuoteGive tax incentives to companies so they could build and operate here.
how about just stop subsidizing globalization?
I am all for stopping ALL corporate and farming subsidies.
and privilege?
I don't have a problem with free trade in principle, obviously. But NAFTA, CAFTA and the like are far from free trade. (If they WERE free trade, they'd be about two pages long, rather than hundreds of pages full of exemptions, protection rackets, subsidies, etc.)
Let's not confuse free trade with the New World Order, which wants no such thing.
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 14, 2006, 03:28 PM NHFT
Quote from: Dreepa on October 14, 2006, 02:29 PM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 14, 2006, 02:09 PM NHFT
QuoteGive tax incentives to companies so they could build and operate here.
how about just stop subsidizing globalization?
I am all for stopping ALL corporate and farming subsidies.
and privilege?
and depends how you define privilege.
privi - private
lege - law
QuoteI don't have a problem with free trade in principle, obviously. But NAFTA, CAFTA and the like are far from free trade. (If they WERE free trade, they'd be about two pages long, rather than hundreds of pages full of exemptions, protection rackets, subsidies, etc.)
Let's not confuse free trade with the New World Order, which wants no such thing.
You're right on that. But, if free trade was truly established, it would be nice to actually have products to trade. The current unbalanced trade deficit is truly stupid. Our Republic of NH would have to to a little more self sufficient than our current nation.
Quote from: mr.apathy on October 14, 2006, 01:27 PM NHFT
Since the Bush's and Clinton signed the Free Trade agreements of the 90's, products are getting lower in quality, and with inflation as out of control as it is, the prices really aren't any better than they were before.
I'm by no means an economist. But from a glance it appears not to be working. I would slowly abolish it, one market at a time. Give tax incentives to companies so they could build and operate here. If the taxes were lower for the companies, maybe it would'nt be so much of a burden to pay a living wage to workers. But alas, that is the key problem with free trade: unethical decision making for a profit.
Thanks for the heads up on LE, I'll check it out.
Those thousand page agreements are hardly "free" Those agreements are inter government regulated trade. Hardly the same thing.
Tracy
Quote from: mr.apathy on October 14, 2006, 12:59 PM NHFT
I know alot of people in this forum love free trade, but I don't. If I buy one more piece of crap made in China that breaks in two days after purchase, I'm going to scream.
So. Ahh. Don't buy cheep Chinese crap? But let me purchase it if I want too.
Tracy
Quote from: error on October 14, 2006, 04:15 PM NHFT
I don't have a problem with free trade in principle, obviously. But NAFTA, CAFTA and the like are far from free trade. (If they WERE free trade, they'd be about two pages long, rather than hundreds of pages full of exemptions, protection rackets, subsidies, etc.)
Let's not confuse free trade with the New World Order, which wants no such thing.
Actually you're wrong. They'd only be two lines long.
Tracy
I don't know about that. With-out all those federal tarrifs, it could potentially be much much cheeper (half price or less on many goods) to purchase abroad then it doesn now.
If the Free Republic of NH imported everything it used, the currency would be worthless. What's wrong with a little self sufficiency?
I'm starting a new thread dedicated to economy. I don't want to argue in here about that. This was supposed to about the Republic of NH website, and content within. Sorry Caleb for encouraging a tangent..
http://www.secessionist.us/ Have you seen that site? They link to the republic of NH :)
Thank me.
I'm the one that e-mailed the link to them :)
Tracy
Quote from: mr.apathy on October 18, 2006, 03:39 PM NHFT
I don't know about that. With-out all those federal tarrifs, it could potentially be much much cheeper (half price or less on many goods) to purchase abroad then it doesn now.
If the Free Republic of NH imported everything it used, the currency would be worthless. What's wrong with a little self sufficiency?
So get rid of the currency and let people use what they want. If people tart desiding Gold, or Platnum, or Euros or Yen hold their value better then U.S. dollars, let them trade in that instead.
Tracy
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 03, 2006, 10:36 AM NHFT7. Tension Reduction. Consistent with Vermont's long tradition of "live and let live" and nonviolence, we do not condone state-sponsored violence inflicted either by the military or law enforcement officials. We support a voluntary citizens' brigade to reduce tension and restore order in the event of political unrest and to provide assistance when natural disasters occur. We are opposed to any form of military conscription. Tension reduction is the bedrock principle on which all international conflicts are to be resolved.
No state sponsorded violence. That would be nice.
Bump for Free Talk Live listeners. :) Welcome.
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 03, 2006, 09:34 AM NHFT
socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).
I didn't entirely get the gist of this argument, but I would like to make a point.
The United States government, and any government that finances itself through debt or Income Tax, is a socialist government. Leaving aside the forced redistribution of wealth, which is certainly a hallmark of Socialism, the local and state government (empowered by the US government) own the land. Ascribing us to this sort of serfdom is simply the easiest way to generate revenue from the land without all of that messy risk. They leave that to the serfs. If they didn't, they would not be able to compel you to pay property taxes with the threat of taking your land.
The US government owns your labor, if they didn't they would be unable to compel you to pay income tax through the threat of imprisonment.
Many state governments have taxes on the assets that a business owns, so they own the capital, but that is really moot because the US govt. owns your labor and that is how you earn money with which to buy the capital. Also the IRS can demand an accounting of your assets, and such, for audit proposes. That seems to me to be the prerogatives of an owner, not an organization set up to defend liberty.
Set up for Liberty, yes. Distorted by citizens based on greed and fear... most definately.
Taxation comes about by the desire of the those voting to attain undue benefits... the manner and mechanism such as to make voters feel the least pain.
I received an email from "Gned the Gnome" who is looking for a representative from New Hampshire to get involved in this:
http://america.freecountries.org/ (http://america.freecountries.org/)
http://america.freecountries.org/call-for-delegates.html (http://america.freecountries.org/call-for-delegates.html)
He emphasized that he is interested in working with people firmly committed to the Non-Aggression Principle, which is why I'm not just reposting his email here. But if you're interested, let me know, and I'll forward the email to you.
Quote from: Mark_FTL on March 30, 2008, 09:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 03, 2006, 09:34 AM NHFT
socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).
I didn't entirely get the gist of this argument, but I would like to make a point.
you know you are quoting the ghost of bill grennon ... right?
actually I agree with him on this .... socialist don't even pretend that you own your stuph
Quote from: Mark_FTL on March 30, 2008, 09:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 03, 2006, 09:34 AM NHFT
socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).
I didn't entirely get the gist of this argument, but I would like to make a point.
The United States mafia, and any mafia that finances itself through debt or Income Tax, is a socialist mafia. Leaving aside the forced redistribution of wealth, which is certainly a hallmark of Socialism, the local and state mafia (empowered by the US mafia) own the land. Ascribing us to this sort of serfdom is simply the easiest way to generate revenue from the land without all of that messy risk. They leave that to the serfs. If they didn't, they would not be able to compel you to pay property taxes with the threat of taking your land.
The US mafia owns your labor, if they didn't they would be unable to compel you to pay income tax through the threat of imprisonment.
Many state mafias have taxes on the assets that a business owns, so they own the capital, but that is really moot because the US govt. owns your labor and that is how you earn money with which to buy the capital. Also the IRS can demand an accounting of your assets, and such, for audit proposes. That seems to me to be the prerogatives of an owner, not an organization set up to defend liberty.
Gotta agree with you, property tax is a state assertion of their ownership of land. Income taxes are state assertion of ownership of your labor. Capital gains taxes are state assertion of ownership of capital. The US is a socialist state.
Here's more fun. The communist manifesto is not communist. In later prefaces to the communist manifesto, Engels would admit that it is really a socialist manifesto, but that he and Marx chose the communist label because at the time he didn't like the connotations associated with socialism. Here is the 10 point action plan, word for word, presented to implement socialism:
"1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc."
It is hard to argue that the US isn't on the path to full blown Marxism.
Whenever one attempt to reach an egalitarian they tend to centralize. The problem is it violates the inherent Perceived Maximum Value of individualism and is thus bound to failure the closer they come to their objective. Human creativity and innovation are so far beyond the scope of centralized management control that attempts are futile.
Quote from: Caleb on May 11, 2008, 03:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: Mark_FTL on March 30, 2008, 09:25 PM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on October 03, 2006, 09:34 AM NHFT
socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).
I didn't entirely get the gist of this argument, but I would like to make a point.
The United States mafia, and any mafia that finances itself through debt or Income Tax, is a socialist mafia. Leaving aside the forced redistribution of wealth, which is certainly a hallmark of Socialism, the local and state mafia (empowered by the US mafia) own the land. Ascribing us to this sort of serfdom is simply the easiest way to generate revenue from the land without all of that messy risk. They leave that to the serfs. If they didn't, they would not be able to compel you to pay property taxes with the threat of taking your land.
The US mafia owns your labor, if they didn't they would be unable to compel you to pay income tax through the threat of imprisonment.
Many state mafias have taxes on the assets that a business owns, so they own the capital, but that is really moot because the US govt. owns your labor and that is how you earn money with which to buy the capital. Also the IRS can demand an accounting of your assets, and such, for audit proposes. That seems to me to be the prerogatives of an owner, not an organization set up to defend liberty.
Gotta agree with you, property tax is a state assertion of their ownership of land. Income taxes are state assertion of ownership of your labor. Capital gains taxes are state assertion of ownership of capital. The US is a socialist state.
The land ownership régime in the U.S. is older than that, deriving from feudalism:—
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title
Yeah, I was actually thinking that when I posted it, I was thinking that really American government is almost fuedal - pay your tribute you damn serf!
The only aspect of feudalism that really ended was hereditary debt. The industrial/factory system is really just a modernized form of the old system. Of course, the way the credit industry gets people suckered into student loans and credit cards by the time they're eighteen makes the abolition of hereditary debt sort of meaningless.
No way.
The feudal system was caste based. Movement within the social structure was very limited.
In today's system, many workers are also owners through stock.
And providing someone with a tool, does not indict you to their malignant use of such.
Peasants owned their land, too. Peasants who actually did free themselves from the debt cycle could become freemen, and rise in the social structure.
My point was that today one could be a worker and also an owner... occupying to levels of society at the same time. Though in reality the various levels are currently only a perception of value.