New Hampshire Underground

Regional Discussion => Dartmouth Sunapee => Grafton => Topic started by: tracysaboe on August 06, 2006, 08:59 PM NHFT

Title: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: tracysaboe on August 06, 2006, 08:59 PM NHFT
 ;D

Tracy
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: aries on August 06, 2006, 10:34 PM NHFT
The county, right?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 06, 2006, 10:51 PM NHFT
I think Free Staters will go where they want.  It seems that if you want more of a suburban-city style life, Keene is the answer.  If you're looking for the woods, go to Grafton.  Or so it seems.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: aries on August 07, 2006, 07:22 AM NHFT
You guys must be talking about the town of grafton. I spend a lot of time in the county but I've never been to the town
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on August 07, 2006, 08:05 AM NHFT
Quote from: aries on August 07, 2006, 07:22 AM NHFT
You guys must be talking about the town of grafton. I spend a lot of time in the county but I've never been to the town

There isn't really a "town" per se. We have a fire dept./ambulance building, town hall building and a gas station/convenience store. So unless you know what you're looking for you may drive right through Grafton and not even notice you just drove through some kind of "town"...  ;D
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 16, 2006, 10:42 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 06, 2006, 08:59 PM NHFT
;D

old news.....

Libertarians set sights on Grafton (http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?SearchID=73176629339372&Avis=CM&Dato=20040613&Kategori=REPOSITORY&Lopenr=406130307&Ref=AR)
Land purchase and Internet chat are the talk of the town
The Free Town Project is an offshoot of the Free State Project. Members hope to make Grafton a laboratory to test their unconventional ideas.
By DANIEL BARRICK
Monitor staff
June 13. 2004 10:00AM




45 min of audio(wma format) from Grafton Focus meeting June 19th, 2004 (http://moneydollars.com/june19/june19.wma)
The Focus organized a meeting for June 19th, 2004 and invited representatives from the Free State Project, Free Town Project, and the New Hampshire Libertarian party to clarify their intentions to concerned citizens.
Attending were:
    * Amanda Phillips, President and National Spokes person, Free State Project
    * Tim Condon and Mike Lorrey, Representing the Free Town Project
    * John Babiarz, Chairman of the New Hampshire Libertarian Party
    * between 200-300 Grafton Residents
    * a bunch of reporters



Town not so keen on Free Towners (http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?SearchID=73176638055559&Avis=CM&Dato=20040620&Kategori=REPOSITORY&Lopenr=406200379&Ref=AR)
Residents demand answers on project's intentions
The Free Town Project wants to settle 200 libertarians in Grafton.
By BEVERLEY WANG
The Associated Press
June 20. 2004 10:00AM



Grafton's messy liberation (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/06/20/graftons_messy_liberation/)
By B.J. Roche  |  June 20, 2004



from All Things Considered, Monday , June 21, 2004 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1967764)
A libertarian group planning to move to tiny Grafton, N.H., got a hostile reception from the locals this weekend. The Free Town Project hopes to get 200 members to move to Grafton, where they'd vote to privatize roads, eliminate funding for public education, and legalize so-called "victimless" crimes. New Hampshire Public Radio's Raquel Maria Dillon reports.



NHPR The Exchange
hosted by Laura Knoy
topic: Free Town Project (http://www.nhpr.org/?q=node/6640/)
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Fluff and Stuff on August 16, 2006, 10:49 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on August 07, 2006, 08:05 AM NHFT
Quote from: aries on August 07, 2006, 07:22 AM NHFT
You guys must be talking about the town of grafton. I spend a lot of time in the county but I've never been to the town

There isn't really a "town" per se. We have a fire dept./ambulance building, town hall building and a gas station/convenience store. So unless you know what you're looking for you may drive right through Grafton and not even notice you just drove through some kind of "town"...  ;D

I never noticed any of those buildings but I did notice the mountain in town with a mine tourist attraction on it, a town dump that was not monitored, and a post office with a very friendly lady.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 16, 2006, 10:59 AM NHFT
Quote from: Keith and Stuff on August 16, 2006, 10:49 AM NHFT
I never noticed any of those buildings but I did notice the mountain in town with a mine tourist attraction on it, a town dump that was not monitored, and a post office with a very friendly lady.
It's not a dump, it is a transfer station, and it is monitored, and only open two days a week.
the fire dept and town offices are right next to the post office...not sure how you could have missed it.

There is also a museum and a library.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 16, 2006, 11:17 AM NHFT
MD returns...   :icon_pirat:
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Kat Kanning on August 16, 2006, 12:07 PM NHFT
Good.  I missed that guy.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: KBCraig on August 16, 2006, 02:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on August 16, 2006, 12:07 PM NHFT
I missed really hate that guy.

There. Fixed it. Wouldn't want you to chase him off by being too nice.

Kevin
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Dreepa on August 16, 2006, 08:28 PM NHFT
Quote from: Money Dollars on August 16, 2006, 10:42 AM NHFT


45 min of audio(wma format) from Grafton Focus meeting June 19th, 2004 (http://moneydollars.com/june19/june19.wma)
]
Thanks for this link.
I had never heard that before.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: hook on August 18, 2006, 03:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on August 16, 2006, 11:17 AM NHFT
MD returns...   :icon_pirat:

Someone moved one too many rocks.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 18, 2006, 09:42 PM NHFT
Quote from: hook on August 18, 2006, 03:40 PM NHFT
Someone moved one too many rocks.
Should I redirect mikelorrey.com to lorrey.biz, or should I make a mikelorrey.com website?
Title: Grafton News
Post by: Money Dollars on August 18, 2006, 09:48 PM NHFT
Did you guys know that Lex is getting a divorce?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Fluff and Stuff on August 18, 2006, 09:55 PM NHFT
I know that both he and his wife are hot and sweet.  Also, the pets are cute.  But, no, I did not know that.  Are you gonna make a move on him?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 18, 2006, 10:00 PM NHFT
Quote from: Keith and Stuff on August 18, 2006, 09:55 PM NHFT
Are you gonna make a move on him?
No, I wouldn't make a move on John Blabiarz's bitch  :P

The NH Sopranos episodes are starting to make sense to me.  :o
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: hook on August 19, 2006, 07:46 AM NHFT
Quote from: Money Dollars on August 18, 2006, 09:42 PM NHFT
Quote from: hook on August 18, 2006, 03:40 PM NHFT
Someone moved one too many rocks.
Should I redirect mikelorrey.com to lorrey.biz, or should I make a mikelorrey.com website?

How about johnrichard.ass instead.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 19, 2006, 06:39 PM NHFT
I guess that means you want me to make the website. I would have picked the other choice.

http://www.mikelorrey.com/

Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Dreepa on August 19, 2006, 07:15 PM NHFT
Is Hook Mike Lorrey?

MD... that is three sites that I have read by you in just a few days and learned a lot.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Pat K on August 19, 2006, 07:20 PM NHFT
Gee a fight between a couple of know it all folks, hard to know who to root for. Guess I will just enjoy it.
Title: Re: Grafton News
Post by: Money Dollars on August 22, 2006, 09:25 AM NHFT
Quote from: Money Dollars on August 18, 2006, 09:48 PM NHFT
Did you guys know that Lex is getting a divorce?
Good news, it's not true......

sorry about that.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: mlorrey on August 25, 2006, 07:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: Keith and Stuff on August 16, 2006, 10:49 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on August 07, 2006, 08:05 AM NHFT
Quote from: aries on August 07, 2006, 07:22 AM NHFT
You guys must be talking about the town of grafton. I spend a lot of time in the county but I've never been to the town

There isn't really a "town" per se. We have a fire dept./ambulance building, town hall building and a gas station/convenience store. So unless you know what you're looking for you may drive right through Grafton and not even notice you just drove through some kind of "town"...  ;D

I never noticed any of those buildings but I did notice the mountain in town with a mine tourist attraction on it, a town dump that was not monitored, and a post office with a very friendly lady.

That post office lady is not a nice person, she's very anti-libertarian and was one of the people behind the whole blow up against the FTP.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: tracysaboe on August 26, 2006, 12:46 AM NHFT
Why is Mike's Karma so low?

+1 for Mike. (Even though his views many times are kind of screwballish and self contradictory.)

Tracy
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Fluff and Stuff on August 26, 2006, 01:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 26, 2006, 12:46 AM NHFT
Why is Mike's Karma so low?

+1 for Mike. (Even though his views many times are kind of screwballish and self contradictory.)

Tracy

Fisher doesn't like Mike but Fisher rarely seems to give people negative Karma.  That was the 1st post I remember from Mike.  I am glad he is posting here  ;D

And to Mike.  She was very nice to me.  Maybe she is just ignant...
Title: Re: Grafton News
Post by: Fluff and Stuff on August 26, 2006, 01:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: Money Dollars on August 22, 2006, 09:25 AM NHFT
Quote from: Money Dollars on August 18, 2006, 09:48 PM NHFT
Did you guys know that Lex is getting a divorce?
Good news, it's not true......

sorry about that.

Gawd, you suck!
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: KBCraig on August 26, 2006, 02:47 AM NHFT
Quote from: Keith and Stuff on August 26, 2006, 01:32 AM NHFT
Fisher doesn't like Mike but Fisher rarely seems to give people negative Karma.

And none of this involves Mike Fisher.  ;D

Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on August 26, 2006, 09:33 AM NHFT
Both post office ladies are nice to me and they both know I'm a Free Stater and I've had to go to the post office quite a few times especially when i had just moved to pick up mail I was there every day for the first month or so.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Fluff and Stuff on August 26, 2006, 01:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on August 26, 2006, 09:33 AM NHFT
Both post office ladies are nice to me and they both know I'm a Free Stater and I've had to go to the post office quite a few times especially when i had just moved to pick up mail I was there every day for the first month or so.

I didn't know there were two ladies.  The lady that was super nice to me in 2004 was a little bit on the heavy side.  So maybe Mike and I was talking of different ladies...
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: mlorrey on August 26, 2006, 03:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: Keith and Stuff on August 26, 2006, 01:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on August 26, 2006, 09:33 AM NHFT
Both post office ladies are nice to me and they both know I'm a Free Stater and I've had to go to the post office quite a few times especially when i had just moved to pick up mail I was there every day for the first month or so.

I didn't know there were two ladies.  The lady that was super nice to me in 2004 was a little bit on the heavy side.  So maybe Mike and I was talking of different ladies...

I don't recall which one was the bad one, but John Babiarz can tell you, she was responsible for sending out the secret slander letter by general delivery the day before the town lynching, and was showing people our sites on the post office computer (which is against postal regs).
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: mlorrey on August 26, 2006, 03:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 26, 2006, 12:46 AM NHFT
Why is Mike's Karma so low?

+1 for Mike. (Even though his views many times are kind of screwballish and self contradictory.)

Tracy

Coming from you, Tracy, thats a compliment...
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: tracysaboe on August 26, 2006, 05:29 PM NHFT
 ;D

Mike. the Monitorist who says he doesn't like the Federal researve yet used to spend numerous ammounts of time defending many of it's practices.

And who also is a warmonger who fully supports US state interventionalism abroad.

Yet Mike is an anarchist as he doesn't believe in the need for a final arbitrator, the people shold be allowed to choose their own arbitrarors vs the monopolistic government court systems.

Yes, Mike is a conundrum of confusing contradictions.

But we love him anyway, I mean. He's helping to create the free town. He might be my neighbor someday  :o so we have to get along.

Tracy
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on August 27, 2006, 08:42 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 26, 2006, 05:29 PM NHFT
But we love him anyway, I mean. He's helping to create the free town. He might be my neighbor someday  :o so we have to get along.

???

I don't know Mike enough to say that I love him (I don't think I've even met him but I'm not good with names) so don't say "we" love him. What is Mike doing in Grafton? Has Mike ever even been in Grafton?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: tracysaboe on August 27, 2006, 01:41 PM NHFT
Mike says he's moving to Grafton with they're own version of the free town project. Unless they've changed plans.

Tracy
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on August 27, 2006, 02:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 27, 2006, 01:41 PM NHFT
Mike says he's moving to Grafton with they're own version of the free town project. Unless they've changed plans.

Before I moved here this would be interesting news but now that I'm here all of this Free Town Project stuff seems pointless.

What would be the purpose of this "project" and it's "goals"?

You don't need a project to move here and work for less government. The Free State Project has been excellent example of how a bureaucracy is very inefficient, if it wasn't for this forum and the group of people that hang out here a lot less people would have moved - proof that a discentralized individualist approach works. So, a "Free Town Project" would automatically imply a concerted effort to... to do what? Do you think a bunch of anarchists, libertarians, constitutionalists, republicans, what have you can decide on what the goal of the "Free Town Project" would be?

You forget Tracy that we are all very different and have different ideas of what freedom means or even just how we want to live our lives. We don't need no stinck'n projects. Just plain old friendships, relationships, trust and sincerity will do a lot more than any so called "project".

If you are thinking of a project as a unit that gets a lot done would you consider Kat and Russell a "project"? They are just nice people working on their dreams. That's all it takes.

We have to practice what we preach. If we want a decentralized society then we have to reach that society via decentralized means.

Besides, Grafton is too small of a town to need anything official. If you want to plan something or talk to someone just invite them for dinner. No need to have any official names for things or official goals. Your home is your base, if everyone just protected their homes and looked after their best interest and helped their neighbors then everything would fit into place.

I'm probably just rambling now...  :P
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: tracysaboe on August 27, 2006, 03:18 PM NHFT
Well, when Mike originally stated the goals of the people moving there. He said the point was to hopefully get rid of every government function except roads, and instead of local police his goals were to get rid of the police dept and the 3 selectmen would have to do part-time police work and be the local constabulatory.

I guess, my main gold is abolishing property taxes. If Grafton is low property taxes already, that shouldn't be too difficult.

Of course 1 eyar later when I asked Mike about it in his forum, he yelled at me to take my utopianism else-where. Except -- see this was his vision, not mine. I was just asking if everybody was still moving there or not after the whole fiasco w/ Zack Bass, so they could strive to accomplish these goals.

Anyway,

Tracy
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: mlorrey on August 27, 2006, 07:33 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 27, 2006, 03:18 PM NHFT
Well, when Mike originally stated the goals of the people moving there. He said the point was to hopefully get rid of every government function except roads, and instead of local police his goals were to get rid of the police dept and the 3 selectmen would have to do part-time police work and be the local constabulatory.

I guess, my main gold is abolishing property taxes. If Grafton is low property taxes already, that shouldn't be too difficult.

Of course 1 eyar later when I asked Mike about it in his forum, he yelled at me to take my utopianism else-where. Except -- see this was his vision, not mine. I was just asking if everybody was still moving there or not after the whole fiasco w/ Zack Bass, so they could strive to accomplish these goals.

Anyway,

Tracy

Not quite accurate, Tracy.

FTP arose in the minds of several, and I'm sure each person has their own goals. I personally don't care to impose my goals on others, and I generally don't have anything against Graftons Police Chief, he's proven himself to be of the 'peace officer' variety that we have no trouble living with, in contrast to the gestapo type we unfortunately experience in other parts of the state. Grafton wasn't even originally the target, we examined a number of towns after the Meade Paper lands in northern NH, that we were looking to raise the funds for, were sold to a private buyer represented by Wagner Woodlands.

The idea was, like FSP, to attract 100-200 FSP members to Grafton to create a voting block capable of deciding any election vote. How that block would vote would be decided by those members, not by any self appointed extremist/absolutist fetishist like Zack Bass, who injected himself into the process by cybersquatting the Free Town Project.com domain name and putting up his own idea of what the FTP would be, refusing any editorial oversight from any others.

Of course, Tim Condon and I tried to explain all this to the people of Grafton, but they had been totally preprogrammed by our enemies before hand using Zack's absurd site as "proof", even though he was never an FSP member, so it was hard to communicate with people whose minds were already made up, or simply opposed to us politically and intent on making the event a public lynching (much like the people in Jaffreys town government who lied about the Life Free or Die event down there recently).

Beyond building that block, we were looking to help FSP members from other parts of the country find a place where they could preserve their capital and standard of living, as most NH real estate is much higher priced than their equivalents in other states. If we could accomplish this by building a neighborhood by libertarian principles, even better.

First and foremost, no matter what project I got or get involved in, I won't publicly disclose what my own goals are, particularly in public forums, like the FSP forum, that practice an insufficient regard for information security, or to people who have a poor relationship with the word 'discretion', because our enemies are doing their best to monitor us and neutralize our efforts (the presence of John Richard here is proof of that).
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 27, 2006, 08:11 PM NHFT
Quote
From: Mike Lorrey
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:14 pm

...

Why Grafton? It has been declared "The Free Town" by a group of Free State Project members investigating and planning its establishment and development.

Population: 1,000
Registered voters: 700
Actual ballot casters: 460
Libertarian leaning voters: 125

Grafton was rated the safest town in the northeastern US in the event of nuclear war by one academic study.

Area: 40 square miles

Location: 15 miles south southwest of the geographic center of New Hampshire, it is 40-45 minutes drive from the state capital, Concord.

Geography: mountainous/hilly with ponds, lakes and valleys

Geology: granite/schist/mica/quartz rock, late holocene glacial moraines, bogs, it is the eastern reaches of the ancient glacial Lake Mascoma.

Landmarks: Ruggle's Mine, a colonial mica mine, is a significant tourist draw. The town is otherwise highly undeveloped.

Development advantages: No zoning codes, no town building inspector, no building permits. A rather ineffectual town planning board is pretty much a rubber stamp.

Once we've transplanted 200-250 activist libertarians to the free town, we will be a functional majority of the town. When this happens, the following will occur:

- Divestment of the public school system, instituting private schools and homeschooling.

- Deestablishing the town police department, the town selectmen will wield their proper constabulary authority directly on a rotating basis, deputizing a volunteer constable corps, much like the volunteer fire department.

- Privatization of non-state roads.


- Encouragement of residential migration to off grid power.

Free Town Land Development: Building the "Habitat for Liberty", with raised capital and sweat equity of working members, on 300 acres of beautiful wooded terrain surrounding Ruggle's Mine.

...
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 27, 2006, 08:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: mlorrey on August 26, 2006, 03:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: Keith and Stuff on August 26, 2006, 01:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on August 26, 2006, 09:33 AM NHFT
Both post office ladies are nice to me and they both know I'm a Free Stater and I've had to go to the post office quite a few times especially when i had just moved to pick up mail I was there every day for the first month or so.

I didn't know there were two ladies.  The lady that was super nice to me in 2004 was a little bit on the heavy side.  So maybe Mike and I was talking of different ladies...

I don't recall which one was the bad one, but John Babiarz can tell you, she was responsible for sending out the secret slander letter by general delivery the day before the town lynching, and was showing people our sites on the post office computer (which is against postal regs).
So yall don't blame me for that any more?  :'(
I wouldn't trust what John Babiarz says about this stuff. He makes guesses and presents it as fact.

Debra is the main mail lady, and she has always been nice to me.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 27, 2006, 08:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 27, 2006, 01:41 PM NHFT
Mike says he's moving to Grafton with they're own version of the free town project. Unless they've changed plans.
At the meeting on june 19th 2004 Mike said he would be moving to Grafton in 9-12 months, so I guess plans have changed.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on August 27, 2006, 08:51 PM NHFT
Quote from: Money Dollars on August 27, 2006, 08:11 PM NHFT
- Divestment of the public school system, instituting private schools and homeschooling.

As far as I understand you can't do this unless the school district decides to allow Grafton to leave the system. So you can have a 100% voting block in Grafton and you still won't be able to vote yourself out of the district without permission of the other towns.

A case of making wild claims without being "on the ground" and understanding the situation.

Quote from: Money Dollars on August 27, 2006, 08:11 PM NHFT
- Deestablishing the town police department, the town selectmen will wield their proper constabulary authority directly on a rotating basis, deputizing a volunteer constable corps, much like the volunteer fire department.

The fact that Mike has gone back on his word saying that now he has no problem with the police chief again shows that you can't make wild claims without having lived here and learned the ropes of the town. Grafton is not your typical town so you can't make general assumptions.

Quote from: Money Dollars on August 27, 2006, 08:11 PM NHFT
- Encouragement of residential migration to off grid power.

The only goal I think even MD can live with ;)
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 27, 2006, 08:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: mlorrey on August 27, 2006, 07:33 PM NHFT
Of course, Tim Condon and I tried to explain all this to the people of Grafton, but they had been totally preprogrammed by our enemies before hand using Zack's absurd site as "proof", even though he was never an FSP member,

If Zack wasn't a FSP member, why did the FSP say they kicked him out?

Why was this letter sent to him a few days before the meeting?
Quote
Subject: DO NOT COME TO NH - EVER
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:45:13 -0400

==========================================

Mr. Xxxxx Xxxxxxxxx,

THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. WITH "FRIENDS" LIKE YOU, WE DON'T NEED ANY ENEMIES.

YOU HAVE POISONED THE WELL IN GRAFTON. THANKS A LOT FOR YOUR "HELP."

THE PEOPLE OF GRAFTON ARE ARMED, DANGEROUS, AND EXTREMELY PISSED AT YOU. EXCEPT FOR THIS MESSAGE, WE WILL CERTAINLY NOT PROTECT YOU.

IN FACT, WE WILL HELP THEM HANG YOU OUT TO DRY IN ANY LEGAL WAY POSSIBLE.

YOU ARE HEREBY WARNED. DO NOT COME TO NEW HAMPSHIRE EVER AGAIN.

THERE IS NO WARM, FUZZY FREEDOM COMMUNITY HERE FOR YOU. FOR YOU THERE IS ONLY AN EXTREMELY HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT OF YOUR OWN MAKING. STAY IN FLORIDA.

For Responsible Liberty,

================================================
John Barnes, J. D.
Vice Chair, 2d District, L P N H
Chair, Welcome to the Granite State Committee
.
Voice or Fax:
Inside USA: 1-888-221-8628 (Toll-free)
Outside USA: 1-312-893-0715 (Not toll-free)
.
E-mail: jbarnes@lpnh.org
================================================

I wonder if it is because yall didn't want him there, because you planned on blaming him for everything... ???
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Money Dollars on August 27, 2006, 09:04 PM NHFT
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2004-July/007423.html
Quote
Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
Thu Jul 8 15:11:02 MDT 2004

...

For instance, the fellow who created the 'save grafton' website is a
DNC party operative who moved to grafton two months ago to coordinate
the attack on the Free Town movement as a 'local'.


The real target of the attack on us is Governor Benson (R) who endorsed
the FSP last year, and who the Dems are unable to mount a credible
opponent against in this years race. They may not care about us. They
do care immensely about who sits in the governors office in NH, since
the state has so much influence on Presidential politics. Smear us, and
by association, they smear him.

Who told you that, Mike?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: tracysaboe on August 27, 2006, 11:52 PM NHFT
Quote from: Mike Lorrey on February 23, 2004, 09:22 AM NHFT
The LPGC will be a county chapter of the LPNH. The actors involved are involved in the Free Town Project, which is intent on implementing a plan for FSP members to explore settling in NH. It is part of our two pronged strategy here:

a) building solid liberty majorities in small towns that already lean our way. This will allow the election of all-libertarian Town Selectboards and divestment of many public entities to incubate truly libertarian communities as petri dishes of our agenda.
b) building king-making voting wedge blocks of FSP members in 'battleground' towns that tend to lean slightly Democratic. If we can anoint libertarian candidates running the fusion strategy, with support and endorsements from the NH Republican Liberty Alliance, we can get our candidates into typically Democratic seats in these towns and build a solid liberty caucus in the Legislature.

I can't seem to find the specific quote I was refering too.

I apolagize that Zack screwed up your plan. It'd still be nice to have a concentration of liberty people in a small place, regardless of our differing goals.

Tracy
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on August 28, 2006, 05:43 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 27, 2006, 11:52 PM NHFT
It'd still be nice to have a concentration of liberty people in a small place, regardless of our differing goals.

Tracy, here is my advice to you: Stop wishing, hypothesizing, babbling and JUST MOVE! The NH Underground Forums are fun but not as much fun as it is being in NH. ;)

To give you a perspective, if it wasn't for my wife announcing a date for our move and making us stick to it we probably would still be in Morris, IL (also important, the date was 3 months from when she announced it, so we had 3 months to finish improving our house, get all our stuff out of the house and into a moving truck, sell the house and make our way east). I now truely believe that it's not an issue of finding the perfect time but JUST DOING IT! There are lots of jobs in Lebanon and Concord and all along the way to there from Grafton, and there are apartments to rent/properties for sale in Grafton. There is no real excuse. (When we were thinking about moving some of the constant questions where: "Well, are we sure Grafton is the right place, it's so far from everything..." even though Morris was like an hour and a half from Chicago, "Are you sure we want to live in a trailer?" even though we didn't particularly even like our house we were living in. Doubts will always cloud your mind, you just have to go on faith and haul your butt over here. You have no excuses.)
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: tracysaboe on August 28, 2006, 09:26 AM NHFT
It's not a matter of doubts for me. It's a matter of not being so swamped with debts form moving and the rest of my debts that I'm no good to anybody there.

I'll be moving to Grafton regardless.

Tracy
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on August 28, 2006, 09:52 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on August 28, 2006, 09:26 AM NHFT
It's not a matter of doubts for me. It's a matter of not being so swamped with debts form moving and the rest of my debts that I'm no good to anybody there.
I'll be moving to Grafton regardless.

There are jobs here too and the mail system works just like it does where you are so you can send your checks to the bank. Trust me, you can pay off your debts from here too ;D  Besides, I think that once you move you will be so energized that you'll pay off your debt much faster than while you're stuck where you are now. Today it is because of debt, tomorrow it will be something else, don't let the little things drag you down Tracy, JUST MOVE!  :icon_pirat: If you are only months away from settling your debts than it probably makes sense to stay but if it's more than a year then move tomorrow and pay it off from NH.

Like I said before, if I had tried to pay off all of our debts (credit card, auto loan, mortgage) we would have spent the rest of our lives in Illinois but after our move we were debt free, the car loan was paid off from getting rid of the car, the mortgage and credit card debt was gone from selling the house. It seems logical now but when we were thinking about moving it seemed like it was the end of the world: we just had a baby a few months before, were in tons of debt, newly married, no relatives in NH, no money to pay for the move (my wife sold her Corvair Corsa to pay for the moving truck). But we did it! With all the odds against us. Maybe some of it had to do with luck but I don't know... Did you read that thread about Pat K avoiding a branch falling on his car by going out to get a coffee? Was that luck too? Or was it ment to be?

It's not going to be easy but if you believe you can do it Tracy I'm sure you will!  ;)
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: tracysaboe on August 28, 2006, 10:21 AM NHFT
Thanks Lex :)

Tracy
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: money dollars on January 30, 2007, 12:56 PM NHFT
john babiarz is the new fire chief
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on January 31, 2007, 07:15 AM NHFT
Grafton K9 Search and Rescue will soon be part of the Grafton Fire Department which means we would be called to Cardigan and Ragged Mountain through mutual aid via Hanover dispatch. Grafton K9 SAR is 100% privately funded so there is no cost to the town. We decided to join the FD so that we would be more "official" and have a greater chance of being called by one of Graftons mutual aid towns.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on January 31, 2007, 07:41 AM NHFT
Quote from: money dollars on January 30, 2007, 12:56 PM NHFT
john babiarz is the new fire chief

There were about 10 people present at the fire meeting. Two voted against John (you can probably guess who at least one of them was), the rest voted in favor of John.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: money dollars on January 31, 2007, 09:22 AM NHFT
Any reason chris stepped down?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on January 31, 2007, 09:30 AM NHFT
Quote from: money dollars on January 31, 2007, 09:22 AM NHFT
Any reason chris stepped down?

Yes, he had a lot of personal stuff going on (he's doing some remodeling in his home) and just didn't have the time to be chief anymore. He said he may decide to be chief again some time in the future.

Bob didn't want to be chief either. In fact, the two who didn't vote for John insisted that Bob be the chief and voted for him. It was quite the scene.  ::)
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on January 31, 2007, 09:35 AM NHFT
Democracy By Intimidation
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 10, 2007, 02:11 PM NHFT
Ok, I've been in Grafton now for 3 years and do love it. Can someone explain what exactly the Free Stater Project is? What would be the pitfalls/advantages of joining? Since I live in Grafton, I've probably run into a "Free Stater" but certainly didn't know it. Where exactly in Grafton did they settle? I've heard a lot of hype about it, but really still do not understand the theory nor have I spoken with anyone who is part of the movement.

The only issue I run into in Grafton is it is quite remote. I work 1.5 hours away. Otherwise, the woods are awesome, the people keep to themselves, and the amount of wildlife I have seen and experienced there is phenomenal. Of course the bears are becoming a bit of a nuisance...we have 3 that visit my yard daily....no we do not bait them nor do we leave trash out where they can get to it.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on July 10, 2007, 02:46 PM NHFT
http://www.freestateproject.org/
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 10, 2007, 02:57 PM NHFT
Thanks, I looked over their site and doesn't the general population in the US somewhat seek similar conditions?

It just does not seem to me that free staters will ever gain enough power to successfully see some of their initiatives through, 20,000 or 40,000....doesn't matter.

For now, while this country is under Bush, I doubt any additional freedoms will be permitted. If Bush had it his way, he'd probably have military law in place in the US.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: error on July 10, 2007, 03:03 PM NHFT
Oh, with even 200, we're already making progress! Read the rest of this site. :)
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on July 10, 2007, 03:29 PM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 10, 2007, 02:57 PM NHFT
Thanks, I looked over their site and doesn't the general population in the US somewhat seek similar conditions?

No. In fact most Americans are ignorant of their own rights and how they are losing them.  They are concerned about that Hilton idiot or their favorite TV show being canceled.
Quote
It just does not seem to me that free staters will ever gain enough power to successfully see some of their initiatives through, 20,000 or 40,000....doesn't matter.

20,000 Activists, working inside and outside of the system, changing, protesting, ignoring bad laws and bad lawmakers.
Quote
For now, while this country is under Bush, I doubt any additional freedoms will be permitted. If Bush had it his way, he'd probably have military law in place in the US.

There is no plan to ask the federal government for our rights.  They don't originate with them. 

Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: error on July 10, 2007, 03:30 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd  Danforth on July 10, 2007, 03:29 PM NHFT
or their favorite TV show being canceled.

Hey, that's my line (http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2006/02/16/how-to-get-liberty-in-your-lifetime/)!
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 11, 2007, 07:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 10, 2007, 02:57 PM NHFT
Thanks, I looked over their site and doesn't the general population in the US somewhat seek similar conditions?

It just does not seem to me that free staters will ever gain enough power

If Bush had it his way, he'd probably have military law in place in the US.
then we are all set :)

some of us seek no power ... so we are already there :)

If Bush doesn't always get his way .... then there must be hope .... something is stopping it.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: money dollars on July 11, 2007, 02:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 10, 2007, 02:11 PM NHFT
Ok, I've been in Grafton now for 3 years and do love it.
Daniel?


QuoteSince I live in Grafton, I've probably run into a "Free Stater" but certainly didn't know it.
They keep it secret. Shhhh....

QuoteWhere exactly in Grafton did they settle?
Bullocks Crossing, RT. 4, Slab City Rd., Dean Hill Rd....



QuoteThe only issue I run into in Grafton is it is quite remote. I work 1.5 hours away.
That sucks. What do you do for internet access?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: money dollars on July 11, 2007, 02:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 10, 2007, 02:11 PM NHFT
Ok, I've been in Grafton now for 3 years and do love it.
Daniel?
Nope, not Daniel....Tony

QuoteSince I live in Grafton, I've probably run into a "Free Stater" but certainly didn't know it.
They keep it secret. Shhhh....
Duh!

QuoteWhere exactly in Grafton did they settle?
Bullocks Crossing, RT. 4, Slab City Rd., Dean Hill Rd....

Ok, so some are less than a two minute walk from me...odd I never noticed, but then again, what would there be to notice?

QuoteThe only issue I run into in Grafton is it is quite remote. I work 1.5 hours away.
That sucks. What do you do for internet access?
Right now I don't...I have dialup through work if needed, but I am a techie and am online at work all of the time. There is Wild Blue satellite, but is initially pretty expensive to buy the equipment. Until I have desperate need, I will remain disconnected in Grafton. I like it that way.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:13 PM NHFT
What is "Karma" about and why am I at a -2? Am I pushing buttons I am not supposed to? I no like bad karma.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Dreepa on July 11, 2007, 03:24 PM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:13 PM NHFT
What is "Karma" about and why am I at a -2? Am I pushing buttons I am not supposed to? I no like bad karma.
It is -1 now  but my guess is that it is because you wanted people to pay for your college loans.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lloyd Danforth on July 11, 2007, 03:28 PM NHFT
He did?  Oh Shit!  Can I get back my applaud?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: money dollars on July 11, 2007, 03:31 PM NHFT
I thought you might be this guy:
http://bergamini.org/


It looks like he is trying to do some type of wireless internet access thing.....
http://oxymoron.net/
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: Dreepa on July 11, 2007, 03:24 PM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:13 PM NHFT
What is "Karma" about and why am I at a -2? Am I pushing buttons I am not supposed to? I no like bad karma.
It is -1 now  but my guess is that it is because you wanted people to pay for your college loans.
I don't want anyone to pay my college loans for me! But if a presidential hopeful wants to 'forgive' my loans I wont complain. I understand fully that this is my debt and do intend to pay it, I was just making a point to another poster.

But I still don't quite understand where this Karma number comes from and how it calculates....just asking for information, there's nothing in 'help' that I can find about it.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Dreepa on July 11, 2007, 04:05 PM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:53 PM NHFT
Quote from: Dreepa on July 11, 2007, 03:24 PM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:13 PM NHFT
What is "Karma" about and why am I at a -2? Am I pushing buttons I am not supposed to? I no like bad karma.
It is -1 now  but my guess is that it is because you wanted people to pay for your college loans.
I don't want anyone to pay my college loans for me! But if a presidential hopeful wants to 'forgive' my loans I wont complain. I understand fully that this is my debt and do intend to pay it, I was just making a point to another poster.

But I still don't quite understand where this Karma number comes from and how it calculates....just asking for information, there's nothing in 'help' that I can find about it.

Ok I gotcha..

Ok karma (once you post 10 times-- quickly go post a few more) you will see an applaud or smite link next to a poster's name.
If you like what they say applaud.  If you don't smite.
Partly a popularity contest, partly a 'pc' contest and partly shows 'something'.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Vote Tyler Stearns on July 11, 2007, 04:09 PM NHFT
I just gave you some karma, owl, but then read your post about Hilary...kiss of death ;)

I don't understand the whole government subsidized student loan thing, but if the govt "forgives" your student loans, then aren't "we" who pay taxes collectively paying for them in the long run?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 01:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:10 PM NHFT
Right now I don't...I have dialup through work if needed, but I am a techie and am online at work all of the time. There is Wild Blue satellite, but is initially pretty expensive to buy the equipment. Until I have desperate need, I will remain disconnected in Grafton. I like it that way.

I signed up last year, equipment and installation was free. I'm on Rt 4 in Grafton, you've probably seen my Wild Blue dish while driving down Rt 4.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 08:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: malevil on July 11, 2007, 04:09 PM NHFT
I just gave you some karma, owl, but then read your post about Hilary...kiss of death ;)

I don't understand the whole government subsidized student loan thing, but if the govt "forgives" your student loans, then aren't "we" who pay taxes collectively paying for them in the long run?
I acquiece....yes, in the long run our tax money goes toward subsidized loans
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 08:34 AM NHFT
"our tax money" hmmm
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 08:39 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 08:34 AM NHFT
"our tax money" hmmm

Not implying I don't pay my taxes are you? cuz I certainly do.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 08:49 AM NHFT
I am sorry to hear that.

I guess I am not included with your "our" .... maybe some day you can join "us".
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 08:51 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 08:39 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 08:34 AM NHFT
"our tax money" hmmm

Not implying I don't pay my taxes are you? cuz I certainly do.

There are millions of people in America who don't pay income taxes in one fashion or another.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 08:49 AM NHFT
I am sorry to hear that.

I guess I am not included with your "our" .... maybe some day you can join "us".

I guess I don't really understand your point....sorry. I don't feel like ending up like the Brown's....I feel their stance is valid, but there are other ways to go about fighting the system. Violence is not the right answer. The Iraq war should be proof enough of that.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:15 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 01:09 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 11, 2007, 03:10 PM NHFT
Right now I don't...I have dialup through work if needed, but I am a techie and am online at work all of the time. There is Wild Blue satellite, but is initially pretty expensive to buy the equipment. Until I have desperate need, I will remain disconnected in Grafton. I like it that way.

I signed up last year, equipment and installation was free. I'm on Rt 4 in Grafton, you've probably seen my Wild Blue dish while driving down Rt 4.
Well, it appears 'free'. I spoke with Wild Blue a few weeks ago and there are two options, fork out $600 and Internet access is considerably less per month, or pay a bit more and 'rent' the equipment. I cannot recall the exact prices, but it was still a bit steep for my wallet at this point in time.

Does it work well for you? Did you go through Dish or NHEC?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 09:20 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 08:49 AM NHFT
I am sorry to hear that.

I guess I am not included with your "our" .... maybe some day you can join "us".

I guess I don't really understand your point....sorry. I don't feel like ending up like the Brown's....I feel their stance is valid, but there are other ways to go about fighting the system. Violence is not the right answer. The Iraq war should be proof enough of that.
My point is that they are not your taxes if you don't pay them. Then you don't have to worry about what they are spent on.
You pay because you are afraid .... the feds abuse the Browns to scare people like you.
What ways would you fight the system? If it works they will punish you for it. If it is ineffective they will invite you to "fight" them that way.
When did I advocate you use violence like the Iraq war?
I am advocating that you stop cooperating with those that use violence.
Your taxes kill children in Iraq.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 09:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:03 AM NHFT
I don't feel like ending up like the Brown's....

Keep in mind that the Browns sued the IRS first, they also tried to hide the fact that they were not paying taxes. Russell and many others simply do not pay and go about their daily business.

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:03 AM NHFT
I feel their stance is valid, but there are other ways to go about fighting the system. Violence is not the right answer. The Iraq war should be proof enough of that.

This forum does not promote violence but does promotes non-violent non-compliance. Heck, the PTB don't even like politics talk on here ;-)
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 09:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:15 AM NHFT
Well, it appears 'free'. I spoke with Wild Blue a few weeks ago and there are two options, fork out $600 and Internet access is considerably less per month, or pay a bit more and 'rent' the equipment. I cannot recall the exact prices, but it was still a bit steep for my wallet at this point in time.

That's not free, they are offering to lease it to you. I guess I got mine through a promotion last year, which they are probably no longer running.

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:15 AM NHFT
Does it work well for you? Did you go through Dish or NHEC?

Depends on what you do, SSH or any low latency software is pretty much unuseable (even dialup is better for low latency stuff). In terms of bandwidth I can't complain, definitely beats dialup. So if you're just browsing the web and downloading large files sat. internet is great, if you mainly want to do lots of SSH/VOIP then forget about it.

Also, I heard that Verizon is offering DSL in Grafton as of very recently. You might want to look into that as well.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 09:39 AM NHFT
Interesting:
QuoteIn addition, a recently released Tax Foundation study revealed that 60 percent of American households are now net consumers of government spending. That is, a significant majority now receive more in government spending than they pay in taxes. In all, over $1 trillion is redistributed from the top 40 percent to the bottom 60 percent.

It is no wonder people feel the tax code is unfair. The ones paying most of the taxes see little for their return.

While some may applaud the fact that millions of low-and middle-income families pay no income taxes, there is a threat to the fabric of our democracy when so many Americans are not only disconnected from the costs of government but are net consumers of government services. The conditions are ripe for social conflict if these voters begin to demand more government benefits because they know others will bear the costs.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/press/show/22335.html

Haha, this is my 1911th post. Maybe it's time to get a 1911.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:41 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 09:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:15 AM NHFT

Also, I heard that Verizon is offering DSL in Grafton as of very recently. You might want to look into that as well.
I just tried Verizon (I try every couple of months) and to no avail, they still offer nothing. Also, Verizon is on its way out for Internet access, some other company is taking over...cannot recall the name.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 09:46 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 09:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:15 AM NHFT
Also, I heard that Verizon is offering DSL in Grafton as of very recently. You might want to look into that as well.
I just tried Verizon (I try every couple of months) and to no avail, they still offer nothing. Also, Verizon is on its way out for Internet access, some other company is taking over...cannot recall the name.

In that case, the nice thing about satellite is that if you ever plan on being off the grid it's a perfect high speed internet solution for off the grid living. Also, when the powerlines go down I still have internet access (untill my UPS runs out of juice...) :-D
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 09:20 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2007, 08:49 AM NHFT
I am sorry to hear that.

I guess I am not included with your "our" .... maybe some day you can join "us".

I guess I don't really understand your point....sorry. I don't feel like ending up like the Brown's....I feel their stance is valid, but there are other ways to go about fighting the system. Violence is not the right answer. The Iraq war should be proof enough of that.
My point is that they are not your taxes if you don't pay them. Then you don't have to worry about what they are spent on.
You pay because you are afraid .... the feds abuse the Browns to scare people like you.
What ways would you fight the system? If it works they will punish you for it. If it is ineffective they will invite you to "fight" them that way.
When did I advocate you use violence like the Iraq war?
I am advocating that you stop cooperating with those that use violence.
Your taxes kill children in Iraq.
I was using the war as an example, the Browns are using violence as their alternative. If the feds go in to get them, they prefer death, implying they will shoot feds before letting them carry them off to jail. The government/IRS are the objects of their issues, not the folks trying to apprehend them. Those in Plainfield right now are just attempting to do their jobs. If the Brown's kill one federal officer, that officer may also have children who will then grow up without a father. The Browns continually insinuate violence with their armory of weapons. I disagree with that tactic.

So if I wanted to actively "NOT Pay Taxes", how do I just do that? There is not a 1040/1040EZ that gives me an option to say, I am not paying taxes. I am interested in this as some argue it can be done.

I pay out a good $5000/year in property/income taxes combined and I can certainly find better places to spend that income.

And, yes, I am scared to not pay. If they take me to jail, my daughter does not have a father. I don't believe in or carry a gun for any reason, so I haven't got anything that would keep them from taking me away.

I also do look at taxes in the perspective that our roads are well maintained, the school my daughter attends is dependent on those taxes, the fire department who responded when my mother-in-law's house was on fire. I see that my taxes go toward things that are necessary parts of society today. I do not agree with my taxes being spent on the war, I don't like to read about people dying everyday over there. I tend to lobby for my taxes being spent here in the US to improve services, get the uneducated-educated, help the poor get a new start. The welfare system needs serious revamping, the rich thieves in corporations are getting away with their greed, while those of us in middle to low income families fight to keep their electricity on every month and find a way to make sure those on welfare are attempting to fix their income issue rather than rely on the system and sit back and enjoy the beach.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Dreepa on July 12, 2007, 10:36 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:41 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 09:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 09:15 AM NHFT

Also, I heard that Verizon is offering DSL in Grafton as of very recently. You might want to look into that as well.
I just tried Verizon (I try every couple of months) and to no avail, they still offer nothing. Also, Verizon is on its way out for Internet access, some other company is taking over...cannot recall the name.
Fairpoint is the name of the company trying to take over part of Verizon.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 10:38 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
I was using the war as an example, the Browns are using violence as their alternative. If the feds go in to get them, they prefer death, implying they will shoot feds before letting them carry them off to jail. The government/IRS are the objects of their issues, not the folks trying to apprehend them. Those in Plainfield right now are just attempting to do their jobs. If the Brown's kill one federal officer, that officer may also have children who will then grow up without a father. The Browns continually insinuate violence with their armory of weapons. I disagree with that tactic.

Since this is a non-violent non-cooperation forum you will find lots of people disagreeing with the Browns stance on violence. But is it still right for the Feds to go in and kill the Browns?

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
So if I wanted to actively "NOT Pay Taxes", how do I just do that? There is not a 1040/1040EZ that gives me an option to say, I am not paying taxes. I am interested in this as some argue it can be done.

Some options (all of which are done, believe it or not):

1. Don't pay taxes and every year write a letter to the IRS telling them so.
2. File a false tax return claiming you don't owe anything.
3. File a true tax return but don't pay.
4. Do 1, 2 or 3 and also sue the IRS.
5. Employ some very complicated legal construct that supposadly makes you legally exempt from taxes.

I'm of the opinion that if you aren't going to pay taxes then you should do it honestly: don't file, don't pay and keep your mouth shut but also don't try different schemes to avoid detection. Such schemes will only bring more attention to you, eg, The Browns.

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
I pay out a good $5000/year in property/income taxes combined and I can certainly find better places to spend that income.

Just, FYI, the Browns pay their property taxes. The only do not pay the federal income tax.

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
And, yes, I am scared to not pay. If they take me to jail, my daughter does not have a father.

I still pay my income taxes for the same reason. But as history has shown rule through fear doesn't last very long.

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
I don't believe in or carry a gun for any reason, so I haven't got anything that would keep them from taking me away.

You do realize that you live in probably one of the most heavily armed towns in NH, right?

And on the subject of guns in Grafton, check out some Youtube videos of Graftons very own MoneyDollars:

guncam v.0.0.2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSrEgzCHB5g)
Money Dollars Gun Cam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1RKaggDWnY)
Money Dollars vs. Soda Bottles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DQ7mQntsJo)
Money Dollars vs. Watermelon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN1U7mLuv7s)

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
I also do look at taxes in the perspective that our roads are well maintained,

Roads are maintained through property taxes.

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
the school my daughter attends is dependent on those taxes,

You can home school your kids as many families in Grafton do or pay for your own education. It's not fair to expect all the folks with no kids or who homeschool their kids to pay for your kids education. The homeschoolers in fact have to pay twice, for your kids education and at the same time for our own.

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
the fire department who responded when my mother-in-law's house was on fire.

Again, paid for by property taxes. Also, Grafton fire department is volunteer. I don't get paid for responding to calls.

Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:07 AM NHFT
I see that my taxes go toward things that are necessary parts of society today. I do not agree with my taxes being spent on the war, I don't like to read about people dying everyday over there. I tend to lobby for my taxes being spent here in the US to improve services, get the uneducated-educated, help the poor get a new start. The welfare system needs serious revamping, the rich thieves in corporations are getting away with their greed, while those of us in middle to low income families fight to keep their electricity on every month and find a way to make sure those on welfare are attempting to fix their income issue rather than rely on the system and sit back and enjoy the beach.

Don't you think it would be fair if we decided which projects we wanted to donate to? That way those who wanted education can voluntarily pay the education taxes, those who want to go to war could pay the war taxes, and those who want to give out money to poor people can do so and those of us who don't agree with government education or war can not pay those taxes. That makes the most sense to me. Let people vote with their dollars like we do on products in the market place. If nobody donates money to government schools then maybe they suck and more people will send kids to private school or home school them :P
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:56 AM NHFT
The Brown's did not pay their property taxes this year. I would love to be able to choose where my tax money goes...that actually would be a great incentive for folks to pay in. I am not an advocate of home schooling. Yes, I know Grafton is heavily armed...not something that bothers me. I just don't use guns....so what?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 11:01 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:56 AM NHFT
The Brown's did not pay their property taxes this year.

Under the circumstances I can understand them not paying it this year. They aren't using the roads, the police protection they would be paying for isn't there. They can't leave their property to enjoy what their property taxes would be paying for, so why should they pay this year? They've paid it in previous years when they weren't stuck in their home.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 11:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:56 AM NHFTI am not an advocate of home schooling.

But you are perfectly fine with advocating violence against those who do not want to pay for government schools?
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 11:05 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 11:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:56 AM NHFTI am not an advocate of home schooling.

But you are perfectly fine with advocating violence against those who do not want to pay for government schools?
UHMMM, NO.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 11:07 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 11:05 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 11:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:56 AM NHFTI am not an advocate of home schooling.

But you are perfectly fine with advocating violence against those who do not want to pay for government schools?
UHMMM, NO.

Okay then.  ;)

You can always send your kids to Cardigan Mountain school, it's even closer than the public school. (You're saving the environment by commuting a shorter distance.)

There is a push to get Grafton out of the school system, so the less kids we have from Grafton at the public school the easier it will be to make the case for it. If we achieve this our taxes would be cut in half. Especially considering the new school they want to build, if they do and we're in for the ride our taxes could double if not tripple.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 11:54 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 11:07 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 11:05 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 11:03 AM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:56 AM NHFTI am not an advocate of home schooling.

But you are perfectly fine with advocating violence against those who do not want to pay for government schools?
UHMMM, NO.

Okay then.  ;)

You can always send your kids to Cardigan Mountain school, it's even closer than the public school. (You're saving the environment by commuting a shorter distance.)

There is a push to get Grafton out of the school system, so the less kids we have from Grafton at the public school the easier it will be to make the case for it. If we achieve this our taxes would be cut in half. Especially considering the new school they want to build, if they do and we're in for the ride our taxes could double if not tripple.
My daughter graduates in 2009, so she'll be out by the time Grafton is out of the system. Then she will go to college.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: money dollars on July 12, 2007, 11:56 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 11:07 AM NHFT
You can always send your kids to Cardigan Mountain school, it's even closer than the public school.
but it is only for boys in grades 6-9  :(

QuoteThere is a push to get Grafton out of the school system, so the less kids we have from Grafton at the public school the easier it will be to make the case for it. If we achieve this our taxes would be cut in half.
I thought it was 70%.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Lex on July 12, 2007, 12:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: money dollars on July 12, 2007, 11:56 AM NHFT
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on July 12, 2007, 11:07 AM NHFT
You can always send your kids to Cardigan Mountain school, it's even closer than the public school.
but it is only for boys in grades 6-9  :(
We can open our own school in Grafton. Maybe even do an apprenticeship style school. Teach programming, blacksmithing, woodworking, gardening, gunsmithing/shooting and of course math, science, economics and maybe a little psychology. I'm sure there is a lot of other stuff I missed.

Quote from: money dollars on July 12, 2007, 11:56 AM NHFT
QuoteThere is a push to get Grafton out of the school system, so the less kids we have from Grafton at the public school the easier it will be to make the case for it. If we achieve this our taxes would be cut in half.
I thought it was 70%.

Even better!
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: KurtDaBear on July 12, 2007, 12:16 PM NHFT
Well, MorningOwl, since this group of rebels and malcontents hasn't caused you to give up and go away yet, it looks like you may have possibilities as a libertarian or free-stater.  When I'm done here, I'll go take back the smite I gave you earlier for proposing that I pay for your admittedly expensive education.  (I went to a state school, so got a "Chevy" education and don't appreciate helping pay for other people's "Cadillac" educations.  (And, yes, I know, my state-school education was taxpayer subsidized.))

The thing to remember in analyzing anything concerning government is that all taxation is achieved through coercion.  In the case of property and income taxes, if you push the point by refusing to surrender, that coercion comes in the form of armed officers of the state coming to take your property, your money and/or your life.  Some lesser forms of taxation, i.e., sales taxes, coerce you by depriving you of obtaining a desired product or service if you don't pay, and they do that by coercing business owners to serve as unpaid tax collectors if they wish to stay in business.

Private providers have to entice you to give money to them, i.e., a toll road that will give you smooth and speedy transportation for your money or a school that follows your religious beliefs.  That's why you'll find, among all our inconsistencies, a consistent advocacy for voluntary solutions to social problems from regular contributors at this site.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 01:23 PM NHFT
Quote from: KurtDaBear on July 12, 2007, 12:16 PM NHFT
Well, MorningOwl, since this group of rebels and malcontents hasn't caused you to give up and go away yet, it looks like you may have possibilities as a libertarian or free-stater.  When I'm done here, I'll go take back the smite I gave you earlier for proposing that I pay for your admittedly expensive education.  (I went to a state school, so got a "Chevy" education and don't appreciate helping pay for other people's "Cadillac" educations.  (And, yes, I know, my state-school education was taxpayer subsidized.))

Graduated NHTI and still attending through Granite State College....so no Cadillac education here. Hey, it would take a lot more than a few opinions to scare me off.
Title: Re: Welcome to the Grafton News Site
Post by: Dreepa on July 12, 2007, 02:36 PM NHFT
Quote from: morningowl on July 12, 2007, 10:56 AM NHFT
I would love to be able to choose where my tax money goes...

I hope you go to town meeting and vote NO.