New Hampshire Underground

New Hampshire Underground => Underground Projects => Topic started by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 03:19 PM NHFT

Title: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 03:19 PM NHFT
For the last month, since Tracy posted his message about the "Freedom Insurance" idea:

http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=4326.0

?I've been thinking about it a lot.  Intially I thought it was something I would support, as opposed to something I would start myself.   Now I'm not so sure I want to wait around!   So I've been working on a plan to turn it into reality without complex preparations. 

For those of you not familiar with the concept, basically an FI company is just what it says:  a business that ensures your liberty.  If you come under certain types of government persecution, and you are a policyholder, the company undertakes a wide variety of actions in your defense. 

I'm chomping at the bit to articulate what all the benefits would be for customers...but let's save the best for last.
 
Forming a "freedom insurance" company could be the fastest, most bottom-up way for us to reclaim our liberties...a market-based point defense against the enforcement of bad laws.  Already, many of these go unenforced or unevenly enforced because people won't tolerate their strict application, because officials feel silly enforcing them or because they don't want to go to the trouble. Maybe we can build on that.  Maybe we can create a wall of deterrence between freedom-killing officials and their victims.

Having mulled over what you guys had to say about the idea, as well as what Warren Tilsen originally had in mind...here's *roughly* what *I* have in mind, and consider *potentially* within my ability to deliver during the coming year.

Small start:  No seed money, no office, no center
No employees.  Just me and whoever I hire out freelance?might include a ?backup me? to take the helm if I drive into a moose.
Limited, achievable objectives, limited complexity, limited overhead.
Simple, flat policy premium:  A dollar a day.  Policy lasts six months then you ditch or renew.
High risk folks rejected (reluctantly) from coverage at this stage; people I don't know also rejected at first
If endeavor were to reach certain size and complexity I'd probably hire a lieutenant with accounting/business/insurance experience to complement my activist skills.

Claims could be made if you face jail time or government-inflicted property seizures totaling over $1000, with key caveats listed in the "not covered" section below

Things covered could include:
  - Tax resistance
  - Running an unlicensed business
  - Harmless zoning violations
  - Eminent domain cases
  - Harmless violations of gun law
  - Soft drug use
  - Driving without ID
And most other harmless illegal activates

Not covered:
 - Crimes that hurt or endanger others without their consent 
 - Charges of such crimes
 - Charges involving minors, animal abuse or hard drugs
 - Certain types of civil disobedience
 - Persecution which occurs outside NH

But the company would reserve the right to defend claimants from time to time whose situation is technically not covered.

The insurance premium would presumably create a fund, and motivation, big enough to enable more effective defenses than those we've already mounted.  These could include the types of things we've already has success with, as well as some fun new activities:

Social support
Ads   
Fully Informed Jury activity
PR stunts
"Raids" on perpetrators' offices
Demonstrations
Polite calls to perps
Moral persuasion
LTEs
Civil disobedience
Support for political rivals of perps
Legislation to repeal the law that triggered the claim

The company would be contractually obligated to complete certain such actions within a given timeframe.

Policyholder defense would *not* involve:

Attorneys (not yet anyway)
Harassment/Rudeness/Intimidation
Backing the perps into a corner
Violence
Reimbursement for fines (That would be like indirectly paying off the authorities)

The idea would be to make a polite, moral case to the perps first, then - if necessary - to their bosses and the public shortly thereafter. The goal would be one of two outcomes:

- Get authorities to drop charges, return property and end threats to the same or
- Arrive at an agreement acceptable to the claimant

The more likely outcome would be closer to a stalemate, but unlike the Barbara Burbank type stalemate, our customers wouldn't be saddled with big legal bills -  at least not from us.

Despite the free market potential of the idea, and the ability to hire out some work, this project would only really rock if NHfree.com volunteers get as excited about claims as they do about current abuses.  We wouldn't be able to hire a bunch of demonstrators, for instance, nor would that necessarily be wise.  Hopefully various folks would see their own dreams for freedom safeguarded by coming to the aid of claimants and would attend FI events.

BENEFITS

Starting with the big picture and working our way up to the most important part (the policyholder):

A viable freedom insurance company, extending its umbrella over liberty lovers in New Hampshire, would be the only institution of its kind anywhere.  It could, to a limited extent, provide a vital service here and deliver a product that is in heavy demand but currently unavailable: Freedom!

It could have a delayed but electric effect on libertarian immigration, as people around the country start to realize there's only one place they can live if they want their freedoms insured.   It should generate media coverage before a claim is even processed - it's the very definition of a "new" thing.  It would, as Tilsen points out, provide focus.  If it did suffer lots of claims, the process of meeting them should generate more publicity and business.  If it came under attack by authorities, that should generate the same.

The process of meeting claims would also give courage to people who currently think their harmless violations of law are something to be ashamed of.  They would see others standing tall on their peaceful acts of defiance rather than submitting.  It would make "harmless disobedience" more mainstream and common.  It could help funnel authorities toward more legitimate prosecutions and arrests, for which the company would voice support.

Now:  As for policyholders, they should see key benefits, even if they never have a claim.  First among these would be an increased ability to defy nanny laws.  Folks otherwise deterred from starting businesses or building things, might now feel the freedom to go for it (hello economic growth)!  Depending on how things shake out there might be a deterrent effect in owning the policy. Perhaps there is also a potential "peace of mind" benefit, and a feeling that your premium money is going toward a vital pro-liberty cause rather than to lawyers or fines.

You would know that, even if you are persecuted, you won't be alone and *will* get public attention if you want it.  If you were a business owner with a claim, the publicity surrounding it could generate new customers.  And, a small but important thing, you'd get various deterrence-oriented paraphernalia, perhaps a bumper sticker that says:

My Freedom is Insured
www.FreedomInsurance.com

Now:  What do you think of this outline?  Where does it need improvement?  What other ideas do you have to add?  And if I took it to the next stage, would you buy a policy?

"A dollar a day
Keeps the government away"

Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 27, 2006, 04:05 PM NHFT
What a brilliant idea, and well fleshed out.  I look forward to seeing it grow.  I'm definitely in for a policy, and am interested in investing in the future of the organization.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Kat Kanning on August 27, 2006, 04:15 PM NHFT
Would people like Russell be "high risk"?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 27, 2006, 04:18 PM NHFT
Will MDMA (Ecstasy) and LSD be considered "soft drugs"?

(http://hammeroftruth.com/images/articles/2006/08/uk_drug_danger_table.jpg)
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 27, 2006, 04:23 PM NHFT
At the beginning the $/day wouldn't really cover much, but it is the idea that is important. In some ways we do this amoungst friends informally and not much more formally in the tuath idea. The tuath is all voluntary and only as strong as our connections.
The Save-a-Patriot guys do something similar to this. When one person gets money stolen from them by the government, the group asks you to donate to them directly in the amount of $7-30 each month. I like that this one would be based on not paying fines and such.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 27, 2006, 04:24 PM NHFT
Save-a-Patriot is sketchy to me, because they won't talk about how many members they have.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 04:25 PM NHFT
some side notes:  I e-mailed Warren Tilsen to see if he had any further thoughts or news regarding this concept but I didn't hear back from him.  The email address may be defunct.

Also I had this idea that the company could require disclosure of criminal records involving violence or fraud.  It could then accept or reject wannabe policyholders after considering their history.   But it wouldn't necessarily have to do background checks on policyholders.

If the policyholder had a claim but had an undisclosed criminal history of this type, I'm betting that would come out during the claim fulfillment process.  It could be grounds for abandonment of the claim - which would presumably be rather public and unceremonious. Perhaps this would deter real criminals from seeking policies.

I have the next two steps roughly gamed out but my scheming on those will be affected by what you guys have to say about Step One (the outline).
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 04:27 PM NHFT
Yes I think if anyone I know could be called hi risk it's russell LOL

However the more hi risk someone is the more eager I would be to hire them for stuff heh heh
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 06:05 PM NHFT
Will MDMA (Ecstasy) and LSD be considered "soft drugs"?


I dont' know, Ian.  I don't even know if I would stick with the non-coverage of hard drugs, and I don't know if I would stick with the *coverage* of soft drugs.  This is still a cross between a brainstorm and a plan, and it will change somewhat based on peoples' feedback.    And it will go away if they do not seem sufficiently interested. 
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 27, 2006, 06:50 PM NHFT
I'd be shocked if this doesn't take off in popularity.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Kat Kanning on August 27, 2006, 07:04 PM NHFT
With big electrodes?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 09:39 PM NHFT
With big electrodes?

?

Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 10:12 PM NHFT
dada am drawing up Step Two now.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 10:17 PM NHFT
Ian with regard to the drug harm graph...would it be fair to say that the relatively high alleged damage done by cannabis, and the relatively low alleged damage done by ecstacy is a result of more people using cannabis than ex?  Or is the higher cannabis usage factored into the factored into the graph?  maybe what I'm asking is...  does ex do less damage because fewer people use it or because it is less dangerous in its effects?

BTW stop and think about this for a minute... how empowering is this...  after years of hypothetical discussion as to whether a drug should be legal (knowing our opinion will probably never affect its legality)  now perhaps we are in a position to make a decision ourselves, as to whether its use will be protected...   That is a real shocker even after three weeks of thinking about it.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 27, 2006, 10:26 PM NHFT
Here's an advantage I thought of related to not covering certain controversial things....

In the future, we could expand our coverage to include those things, and when we do, it will probably make the news.

the other advantage is that we keep those controversial things off our back at first.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 27, 2006, 10:30 PM NHFT
Not likely, MDMA (ecstasy) is a very popular drug.  LSD is the most well researched of all psychedelics, it's very safe when used properly, as is MDMA.

MDMA and LSD only pose a danger because of questionable black market manufacturing.  (Impurities, other drugs being marketed as MDMA, etc.)

(Note that any drug done to excess will likely be damaging.)
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 27, 2006, 10:34 PM NHFT
Let's get back on track..  So, who else is buying?  Please don't tell me I'm all alone on this.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: AmerTownCrier on August 27, 2006, 11:05 PM NHFT
At the beginning the $/day wouldn't really cover much, but it is the idea that is important. In some ways we do this amoungst friends informally and not much more formally in the tuath idea. The tuath is all voluntary and only as strong as our connections.
The Save-a-Patriot guys do something similar to this. When one person gets money stolen from them by the government, the group asks you to donate to them directly in the amount of $7-30 each month. I like that this one would be based on not paying fines and such.
I'm glad I read both pages of  posting. Save a Patriot does have the right idea. Some people, say for example, who lose their house...actually make more from the theft.
Save-a-Patriot is sketchy to me, because they won't talk about how many members they have.
Why is it important to know how many members they have? Their successes over the years and their methods of paying those who have been damaged work. I'd bet John Kotmair would talk to you about it if you told him who you were and why you were calling.
Taking the financial losses of civil disobedience would go a long way to increasing CD...wouldn't it?!?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: AmerTownCrier on August 27, 2006, 11:07 PM NHFT
I meant to say taking the damages of financial losses out of the equation would increase CD. :)
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: tracysaboe on August 28, 2006, 01:15 AM NHFT
Or At least spreading them around.

Tracy
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Braddogg on August 28, 2006, 01:40 AM NHFT
Sounds like a GREAT idea, Dada.  When I move up, I'll definitely take out a policy.  And I'd be willing to make a donation to help get it off the ground if it would help.

I'm curious, what sorts of civil disobedience did you think should not be covered?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 28, 2006, 01:43 AM NHFT
I cannot start/run this project, but I would be willing to help people after they are stung by the mafia thugs.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 28, 2006, 07:01 AM NHFT
Ian and Brad I am glad you guys are so fired up about this!  I appreciate your offers not only to buy (or eventually buy) policies, but also to contribute donations or loans.  I will not take a loan probably, but one way you could each contribute beyond a policy of your own would be to buy or help buy someone else's policy. Perhaps someone who otherwise wouldn't buy one.   Maybe these will make good gifts :)

But even if you didn't want to put money into it there will sure be plenty of need for volunteers to fill the gaps which money can't....
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 28, 2006, 09:08 AM NHFT
At the beginning the $/day wouldn't really cover much, but it is the idea that is important. In some ways we do this amoungst friends informally and not much more formally in the tuath idea. The tuath is all voluntary and only as strong as our connections.
The Save-a-Patriot guys do something similar to this. When one person gets money stolen from them by the government, the group asks you to donate to them directly in the amount of $7-30 each month. I like that this one would be based on not paying fines and such.
I'm glad I read both pages of  posting. Save a Patriot does have the right idea. Some people, say for example, who lose their house...actually make more from the theft.
Save-a-Patriot is sketchy to me, because they won't talk about how many members they have.
Why is it important to know how many members they have? Their successes over the years and their methods of paying those who have been damaged work. I'd bet John Kotmair would talk to you about it if you told him who you were and why you were calling.
Taking the financial losses of civil disobedience would go a long way to increasing CD...wouldn't it?!?



Right...I'm glad SAP is there.  But the thing that seems imperfect about Save a Patriot is the lack of deterrent effect.   Yes they do help the good guys, but they do not seem to put pressure on the bad guys.  What do the feds care if some poor lady gets re-imbursed after they steal her house?  They have the house, and save-a-patriot did not put them under any scrutiny or discomfort for taking it.  Nor did any media attention come into play.   Unless I'm missing something, that's how SAP activity works.  It's apparently not very active.

Not a bad idea, just... not all it could be.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 28, 2006, 11:59 AM NHFT
I'm far more interested in supporting an NH based business run by an FSP member than I am S-A-P.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 28, 2006, 05:06 PM NHFT
I mentioned them to show how they do a couple of things. You have a different thing going here.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on August 28, 2006, 05:08 PM NHFT
I mentioned them to show how they do a couple of things. You have a different thing going here.

Yes, Dada's concept is very useful!  I see two buyers so far.  Who else is in?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Atlas on August 28, 2006, 05:31 PM NHFT
I'll be on board once I move. I'd even be interested in the actual personal protection of individual's rights via the policy contract. I'm wondering how we could protect liberties that the government refuses to recognize. And if the protectors go to jail while fulfilling their job, what would happen? Would there be compensation? Cause if someone needs physical protection from the police/Feds, there could be serious prison time for the protection services. This is my only hangup with this idea. It would need a fairly sizable membership to be worthwhile and also for the protection of protection agents. Awesome idea though.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: firsty on August 28, 2006, 05:48 PM NHFT
this seems like a good idea.

that said, whats to stop the government authorities, from legislatures down to law enforcement and everything in between, from simply putting the insurance company out of business? it could be done "legally," by fighting every case, by legislating the risks defined by the insurance company, by punishing members thru surveillance and subsequent arrests, etc? it could also be done less directly (and less "legally," but since theyre the ones making the laws - and in bed with the people currently profiting from those laws - they define "legal" anyway) through the pretty obvious opportunity of faking facts for a pr campaign, by altering laws that the insurance company would object to (consensual crimes, basically) so that those laws cant be protected by an insurance company, etc.

you also have the fact that the only people who are going to be signing up for this insurance company are going to be relatively high risk people, and since our names would be available to the insurance company, whats to prevent the govt from simply getting that list and making the rounds thru the neighborhood, arresting everyone?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: earthhaven on August 28, 2006, 06:06 PM NHFT
I'd be interested if it would cover me for simple possession of a small amount of pot. So far I have a clean criminal record and I would like to keep it that way until I get a "real" job.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: firsty on August 28, 2006, 06:10 PM NHFT
I'd be interested if it would cover me for simple possession of a small amount of pot. So far I have a clean criminal record and I would like to keep it that way until I get a "real" job.

yeah, me too.

the more i think about it, the more i think this would be, indeed, simply another way to pay off the authorities. more corruption - how is that good?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: AmerTownCrier on August 28, 2006, 07:02 PM NHFT
I'm far more interested in supporting an NH based business run by an FSP member than I am S-A-P.

No, no, no! :) I'm not saying go thru SAP (they wouldn't do it anyhow). I was just trying to point out that their Defense Fund makes CD a worthwhile activity. 
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 28, 2006, 09:36 PM NHFT
With regard to the fears that a Freedom Insurance company would suffer this or that type of persecution...

Most of these concerns appear to be things I've thought of and factored in, but I do still need ideas how to combat the threats.   And more ideas how the threats might play out.

The idea of customers being persecuted is something I've wondered about, and I think eventually we'd need a process by which people could be insured without the *company* even knowing who they are.   I have a pretty good idea how to do this.   

Presumably their affiliation with us would become known if they had a claim, but at least they could stay stealthy until then and avoid persecution-for-being-a-customer.   If such a thing even happens.  It's important to plan for the worst, but I can't see how the government would put much priority on persecuting some experimental institution filled with nice friendly people who at worst are *maybe* a vague eventual threat to their jobs, no threat at all to their safety.   While the organization is hypothetical, or small, their best bet is to leave it alone and exect it to fail like most businesses do.   That's likely going to be what they want to do, because it's less work.

Once it is bigger, it can hold its own and they have been around it enough to know it's not that much of a threat to them anyway.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 28, 2006, 09:51 PM NHFT

Rebel wrote:
<< Cause if someone needs physical protection from the police/Feds, there could be serious prison time for the protection services>>

I don't envision "physical protection from the feds."  That's the type of resistance that gives them more power.   This is more like moral protection and propaganda protection.

Firsty wrote:
<<whats to prevent the govt from simply getting that list and making the rounds thru the neighborhood, arresting everyone?>>

Their natural human aversion to hours upon hours of difficult unpopular work.   The fact that they have bigger fish to fry, (which I would in many cases support their frying of)!

earth wrote:
<< I'd be interested if it would cover me for simple possession of a small amount of pot.>>

I'm leaning toward a "yes" answer on that.  the more I think about it the more I like the idea of covering pot specifically, in all quantities, but not covering any other illegal drug.  I just see this as what's doable based on the current outlook of NH residents.  NH uses more pot per capita than any other state, but almost everyone who has been welcoming to us has a problem with hard drug   I guess I see this as a tip of the hat to them.  And there's a propensity to overidentify libertarians with the drug issue.   But eventually if it seemed the right thing to do, we could expand coverage to include responsible use of other drugs.   

I'm still undecided so keep the feedback rolling in.

Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 28, 2006, 09:53 PM NHFT
<<the more i think about it, the more i think this would be, indeed, simply another way to pay off the authorities. more corruption - how is that good?>>

That sounds like a criticism of SAP, not freedom insurance.  I was pretty specific in the original outline about my feeling that we should not help anyone pay fines.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: firsty on August 28, 2006, 10:56 PM NHFT
ok, two last thoughts - if i picture a cop arresting someone for drug possession and finding out that that person is covered by this insurance, it's not going to take long for the cops to get really pissed off. this results in: pissed off cops. the other thing is that, how do you keep this from becoming another way for the poor to lose out. if you cant afford this insurance, you're now even more likely to get arrested for these small "crimes."

(sorry about that last comment - you're right. i was a victim of skimming.)

on the other side of the coin, i like the idea of a group like this...i think you're considering it from many angles and thats the thing to do - anticipate (obviously)...but what about combining it (expressly) with a sort of advocacy group...giving it perhaps some easier inroads in the lobbyist world (as opposed to a group which, basically, is an opposition group).

it might also help if, as part of the premiums, the holders of the insurance policies were expressly involved with either volunteering at the group (answering phones, etc) or in other community service areas. if this company's clientele was also a strong and positive force in the community (as a rule), that may provide it some valuable image-building (as well as, you know, being a positive force in the community).

just thoughts out loud...
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 29, 2006, 08:34 AM NHFT
Here's a thought:  Most cops and prosecutors are used to people begging them to do stuff that requires more work.    They may find it refreshing to deal with folks asking them to do less work LOL
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 29, 2006, 09:53 AM NHFT

In answer to the question above "what civil dis would not be covered?"

I'm not sure... I haven't through that through yet.    Maybe we shouldn't cover any of it.   Or maybe we should cover all of it !  But it is a potential sticking point.

If we had a rate hike after every claim a person made (and which we fulfilled), and the hike affected only the person who made the claim, maybe that would work and allow us to cover all civil dis.  I guess that's what traditional insurance companies do.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on August 31, 2006, 09:01 PM NHFT
Based on this week's feedback on the idea, I am plotting my next move on this; more later.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: tracysaboe on September 01, 2006, 12:19 AM NHFT
Dada, you might want to read through/study this. It might give you some ideas.

On the Viability of Subscription Patrol and Restitution Services
http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/guillory2.pdf

It's more for security companies, first responce, and how it can work well with insurence companies. But it would still probably be usefull and give you some ideas.

From Mises blog.
http://blog.mises.org/archives/004821.asp
On the Viability of Subscription Patrol and Restitution Services by Gil Guillory and Brian Drake (Woodlands, TX)

A business model for subscription-based patrol and restitution is presented and defended with empirical and economic arguments. Secondary market research and pilot results of primary market research indicate potential viability.

Tracy
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 01, 2006, 12:22 AM NHFT
Good thanks tracy! will read it and absorb.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 03, 2006, 06:24 PM NHFT
Well now that we have discussed this idea for a week or so, I think it's time to move it forward or set it aside for a while.

It seems there is a moderate level of interest, and a fairly low level of discontent with the tentative parameters I've presented for what would be the world's first liberty insurance business.  I think the most appropriate thing for me to do now is present to you an updated outline, which incorporates some of your suggestions and answers some of your questions.  Then I would like to leave the immediate fate of this endeavor in your hands. 

If, between now and October 15, eight or more of you come forward and present certain tentative commitments, I will take this project through the next step.    Essentially what I'm asking for is eight of you to publicly say, yes Dave, if you do this I'm on board and will likely purchase a $180 six month policy within one month of your startup.

It would also be okay if one person were to indicate that they will underwrite policies for two or three others; I am counting only the number of policies spoken for not the number of people paying. 

If we can hit the Lucky Eight mark on time, I will move us through Step Two.  If I can't get eight policies spoken for within such a reasonable deadline, that is no big deal but is an indicator the time has not yet come.  I would tend to back-burner this and concentrate on other things for a while, waiting for a day when there are more liberty lovers in state or other improvements in the "liberty business climate."

Whether this flies now or get put on hold, I'm of the opinion that it will be doable within four years.  Over time, as the numbers here grow, so too will the viability of this hopeful and important concept.

Couple caveats:  This is still a tentative outline subject to many changes before it goes live, if in fact it does go live!  Also "Freedom Insurance" is not going to be the company's real name, I'm just using that as an example.  As before, I'm chomping at the bit to articulate what all the benefits would be for customers...but we'll save the best for last. Changes from the original outline are in bold.


Outline for a Freedom Insurance business, version 9.3.06

?Freedom Insurance? is a proposed business which, if born, would insure people in New Hampshire against certain types of persecution by the government.   These are outlined below, as are the methods by which a policyholder could be defended.

This is how the company would look at first:

- Small start:  No seed money, no office, no center.
- No employees.  Just me and whoever I hire out freelance, perhaps including a ?backup me? to take the helm if I became unavailable. One of the first types of work I'd hire out would probably be ad creation and purchase.  Jim Maynard, you listening? 
- Limited, achievable objectives, limited complexity, limited overhead.
- Simple, flat policy premium:  A dollar a day.  Policy lasts six months, then you ditch or renew.
- High risk folks rejected (reluctantly) from coverage at this stage.  Currently defining this as anyone who's been arrested more than  once in the two years preceding policy startup, or successfully fined more than $2000 in that time.  Most people I don't know also rejected at this stage, as well as anyone I feel we might have difficulty defending. 
- If endeavor were to reach certain size and complexity I'd probably hire a lieutenant with accounting/business/insurance experience to complement my activist skills.

-My "salary:"  For now, I'm thinking it should be 12% of company revenue.  This means we would have to have about 275 policyholders before this job would duplicate for me the yearly earnings of a full time burger flipper.

Claims could be made if you were imprisoned, or facing prison time, or government-inflicted property seizures/fines totaling over $1000.  However  there are important caveats listed in the "not covered" section below.

Things covered would include:
  - Running an unlicensed business
  - Harmless zoning violations
  - Eminent domain cases
  - Tax resistance/evasion
  - Harmless violations of gun law
- Use or possession of Marijuana/Cannabis (no quantity limit)
  - Driving without ID
 
...And most other harmless illegal activates.   

Not covered:
 - Crimes or charges of crimes that hurt or endanger others without their consent, with the possible exception of self defense.  SD related claims would be accepted or rejected at company discretion.
 - Charges involving persons under 18, animal abuse and most (but not all) illegal drugs
- Getting arrested on purpose (example:  Outlaw Manicure arrest, Freedom to Travel arrest)
    (removed reference to civil disobedience)

 - Persecution which occurs outside NH

But the company would reserve the right to defend claimants from time to time whose situation is technically not covered.  Ultimately we?d ask you to have some faith in our ability to be selfish.  It is in our best interest to meet claims whenever we can, within the boundaries of our resources and circumstance.

If there were a mix of charges, some covered, some not, we would still be willing to come to your defense.  For instance, if you were charged with DUI and having an ounce of weed in the trunk, and you had not done anything else to disqualify yourself, you would still have a valid claim.  The DUI would not be covered, but any pot possession charges would.   We would fulfill it if asked to, but doing so would tend to draw attention to your DUI.  Much better for everyone if you stick to "crimes" that do not endanger others!!
 
Your premium would rise 20% if you had a claim and we fulfilled it.


The premiums would presumably create a fund, and motivation, big enough to enable more effective defenses than those we've mounted to date.  These could include the types of things we've already has success with, as well as some fun new activities.  Claimants would be encouraged to aim us toward or away from any of these:

Social support
Ads   
Fully Informed Jury activity
PR stunts
Defensive occupation of threatened property
Peaceful "raids" on perpetrator offices
Demonstrations
Polite calls to perps
Moral persuasion
LTEs
Civil disobedience
Support for political rivals of perps
Legislation to repeal the law that triggered the claim

The company would be contractually obligated to complete certain such actions within a given timeframe.  For instance, the first "tyranny response" would need to come within 48 hours of claim approval and would probably be in the form of polite phone calls to perps.

Policyholder defense would *not* involve:

Attorneys (not yet anyway)
Harassment/Rudeness/Intimidation
Backing the perps into a corner
Violence of any kind
Reimbursement for fines (That would be indirectly paying off the authorities)

The idea would be to make a respectful, moral case to the perps first, then - if necessary - to their bosses and the public shortly thereafter. The goal would be one of two outcomes:

- Get authorities to drop charges, return property and end threats to the same or
- Arrive at an agreement acceptable to the claimant

If the claimant were jailed, the goal would be to get them out and then determine whether they still are facing jail or fines sufficient to justify continuation of their defense.

The most likely outcome of a claim is probably a moderately publicized stalemate, like the one we had at Hampton. But unlike the stalemate in Barbara Burbank's fight with Hampton's building inspector our customers wouldn't be saddled with big legal bills - at least not from us.

  Regarding the balance between paid help and volunteers:     Despite the free market potential of this idea, and the ability to hire out some work, the project would only really rock if NHfree.com volunteers get as excited about claims as they do about current abuses.  We wouldn't be able to hire a bunch of demonstrators, for instance, nor would that necessarily be wise.  Hopefully various folks would see their own dreams for freedom safeguarded by coming to the aid of claimants and would attend FI events.

Regarding brief imprisonments:  There are likely to be situations where policyholders were arrested for ultra minor "infractions" like refusing to stop demonstrating in a public area.   If the person arrested goes to jail as Lauren did, that would be a valid claim, and we would be in action fulfilling the claim until the person was released from jail.   Once they are out, assuming they do not face further prison time or fines/property seizures over $1000, we would consider the claim fulfilled.  Hopefully this approach, coupled with the rise in premiums whenever you have a claim, sufficiently addresses the issue of civil disobedience.   But I am still tweaking this gray area and need your input.


ANONYMOUS POLICIES
   
I have come up with a protocol for allowing people to purchase policies without me or anyone else knowing who they are.   Your identity would however become known if you had a claim.    More on this if we hit the "8 mark" on time. 


BENEFITS

Starting with the big picture and working our way up to the most important part (the policyholder):

A viable freedom insurance company, extending its umbrella over liberty lovers in New Hampshire, would be the only institution of its kind in the known universe.  It could, to a limited extent, provide a vital service here and deliver a product that is in heavy demand but currently unavailable: Freedom!

It could have a delayed but electric effect on libertarian immigration, as people around the country start to realize there's only one place they can live if they want their freedoms insured.   It should generate media coverage before a claim is even processed - it's the very definition of a "new" thing.  It would, as Tilsen points out, provide focus.  If it did suffer lots of claims, the process of meeting them should generate more publicity and business.  If it came under attack by authorities, that should generate the same.

The process of meeting claims would also give courage to people who currently think their harmless violations of law are something to be ashamed of.  They would see others standing tall on their peaceful acts of defiance rather than submitting.  It would make "harmless disobedience" more mainstream and common.  It could help funnel authorities toward more legitimate prosecutions and arrests, for which the company would voice support.

Now:  As for policyholders, they should see key benefits, even if they never have a claim.  First among these would be an increased ability to defy nanny laws.  Folks otherwise deterred from starting businesses or building things, might now feel the freedom to go for it (hello economic growth)!  Depending on how things play out there might be a deterrent effect in owning the policy. Perhaps there is also a potential "peace of mind" benefit, and a feeling that your premium money is going toward a vital pro-liberty cause rather than to lawyers or fines.

You would know that, even if you are persecuted, you won't be alone and *will* get public attention if you want it.  If you were a business owner with a claim, the publicity surrounding it could generate new customers.  And, a small but important thing...you'd get various deterrence-oriented paraphernalia, perhaps a bumper sticker that says:

My Freedom is Insured
www.FreedomInsurance.com

   Now:  Having evolved this idea a bit, incorporated some of your ideas and hopefully answered some questions, it's time to turn it over to you guys.  Informal commitments to purchase eight policies will open Stage Two.  Stage Two will involve further refining the outline, setting up a more formal "pledgebank" style statement of intent, naming the company, preparing text for a website and other steps.

In the meantime, I have some questions:

Do you think I should rule myself ineligible for policy?  I might not be high risk under above guidelines, but have concerns it could be perceived as potential conflict of interest for me to hold a policy. 

Do you think the policy should cover illegal possession of prescription drugs such as Oxycontin and Codeine?   That question is not really addressed in the outline above.   Are there any prescription drugs that really qualify as hard drugs or pose a huge threat in and of themselves?

Does my proposed salary seem to high?  Too low?

What are your other thoughts on this outline?  Where does it need improvement?  What other ideas do you have to add?  What is it missing?  What does it have that it shouldn't?


"A dollar a day
Keeps the government at bay"


Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 03, 2006, 06:26 PM NHFT
Dada, you might want to read through/study this. It might give you some ideas.

On the Viability of Subscription Patrol and Restitution Services
http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/guillory2.pdf


I'm halfway through it now Tracy...thanks again.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 03, 2006, 07:35 PM NHFT
I like the idea. I will try to help this org.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Caleb on September 03, 2006, 07:53 PM NHFT
I will try to help as best I can, Dave, but I'm not sure that you have articulated how this is any better than what we already do now, for free, when someone is in trouble with the thugs.

I like the idea of money given to the family to help keep things going when someone is in jail ... but that need could exceed the number of policies you'd have to sell in order to complete your contractual obligations.  Could this be done better as a "fund" rather than a policy, that way all you are doing is saying, "We will TRY to do such and such" rather than having a contractual obligation that you may not be able to meet, for all the good intentions?

Caleb
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Barterer on September 03, 2006, 08:30 PM NHFT
I'll sign up.  PM me when 7 others will too.  I'm not likely to use this before I move to NH and take on a less conventional job.  But I'd like to help out with the idea now, and establish a "clienthood" for when I need it.  :icon_pirat:  I also think early adopters will be at the top of the list if several cients happen to be in trouble at once..
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: tracysaboe on September 04, 2006, 12:47 AM NHFT
Unfortunitely, I'm not in New Hampshire, so you'd be hard pressed to help me where I'm at. Certainly if I were in NH, refusing to pay income and property taxes, I would join though. But that means I, currently, can't count as one of your 8. :(

Tracy
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: felix.benner on September 04, 2006, 05:25 AM NHFT
I don't count as possible client either (although I probably would join such a company in Germany). But just as advice: It would be more compelling if you'd state exactly what your work would be and how the money would be used, like:

1. You will create ads and sign suggestions within 48 hrs.
2. You will keep yourself informed and post information about the case on a company web site.
3. You will link this information in relevant forums.
4. Money will be used as credit (without intrest) for time in jail if needed.
5. Money will be used as FTL Amp to get priority calls.
etc.

Same situation as always: A lot of people give encuragement but nobody wants to pay  >:D
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 04, 2006, 10:36 PM NHFT
Barterer thanks for stepping forward!  Seven to go.

Also I should clarify: I don't think it's really necessary for The Eight to make their intentions public.  If you tell me only, that's enough.

Caleb wrote:

<< I'm not sure that you have articulated how this is any better than what we already do now, for free, when someone is in trouble with the thugs.>>

The differences I'd envision are, among other things, improvements in the Speed, Size, Focus and Novelty of our defenses.

The most important of the improvements is likely to be Speed. Having a contractual obligation to act within a certain time, and a market incentive to do the same, provides a real urgency on our end and should confront bureaucrats with a much quicker response to their privations.   

When I talk about Size, I'm not just referring to the size of the reaction, though that's important.  I'm also thinking about the fact that this endeavor, to be profitable, would need to expand well beyond the boundaries of our little ideologically bound group.   I'll let you mull the various positive side effects that would have.

The Focus level would increase for obvious reasons.

And when it comes to Novelty, well just look at the first few defenses on the list:

Ads   
Fully Informed Jury activity
PR stunts
Defensive occupation of threatened property
Peaceful "raids" on perpetrator offices
Support for political rivals of perps

We've barely used any of these techniques.   Maybe that's because we lacked a market incentive.   


Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: tracysaboe on September 05, 2006, 10:36 AM NHFT
Quote
Maybe that's because we lacked a market incentive.   

And Money.

Tracy
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 05, 2006, 03:59 PM NHFT

Felix wrote:

<< But just as advice: It would be more compelling if you'd state exactly what your work would be and how the money would be used >>> ,

Working on that now; or rather I should say I already was.  It would have to be part of the contract.   I am about 250 words into it.    I will ingest some of your ideas into it.

<<A lot of people give encuragement but nobody wants to pay  >:D  >>

No that's as it should be, the burden of proof is on me to show that I can deliver something worth a dollar a day. And this will not really generate that much excitement until we start actually doing it, months or years from now.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 05, 2006, 04:06 PM NHFT
firsty wrote:

<< if i picture a cop arresting someone for drug possession and finding out that that person is covered by this insurance, it's not going to take long for the cops to get really pissed off. this results in: pissed off cops. >>

Do you or does anyone else have any thoughts on how to keep them "unpissed" and yet still make it hard for them to hurt customers?

Also from firsty:

<<but what about combining it (expressly) with a sort of advocacy group...giving it perhaps some easier inroads in the lobbyist world >>

Do you have any specific ideas about how such an advocacy group would operate, what it should do?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: firsty on September 05, 2006, 06:22 PM NHFT
firsty wrote:

<< if i picture a cop arresting someone for drug possession and finding out that that person is covered by this insurance, it's not going to take long for the cops to get really pissed off. this results in: pissed off cops. >>

Do you or does anyone else have any thoughts on how to keep them "unpissed" and yet still make it hard for them to hurt customers?

Also from firsty:

<<but what about combining it (expressly) with a sort of advocacy group...giving it perhaps some easier inroads in the lobbyist world >>

Do you have any specific ideas about how such an advocacy group would operate, what it should do?

i'm the wrong person to ask about how not to piss off the cops. my experience is that if something is made difficult for the cops, they get angry. to make it less difficult, you'd have to remove their sense that their time arresting people who end up being covered by this insurance is time wasted. that means that the cops dont do any paperwork on the arrest, dont have to show up for hearing(s), dont have to answer questions from meddling "rights" activists.

as far as the lobbyist thing goes - i would suggest that some of the funds from the company (whatever isnt spent on the actual clients) would go towards a group that would part of but not identical to the insurance company itself. in other words, some lobby group designed to advocate for less stringent drug laws, become associated with favorable medical lobby groups, become associated with groups like the ACLU with already wield a good deal of power, etc. become a player in that game.

but how would you keep your client list a secret? in my mind, the easiest way for a moralizing politician to destroy the entire idea would be to simply convince a certain amount of relatively stupid and uninformed voters and fellow politicians that it's the public's best interest to know who these people are who are covered by this "illegal activity" insurance (thats probably what theyd call it). they would demonstrate the law enforcement and judicial time wasted having to deal with people who are trying to advocate illegal activities. the other thing theyd do is simply pass a law (if there isnt one already) that bans any agency, public or private, from implicitly encouraging illegal activities. seems like a pretty simple thing to do, something likely to pass completely under the radar of the media.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 15, 2006, 10:41 AM NHFT
OK since some of you guys were asking to see some type of contract, here is a rough version of the contractual obligations I envision FI having to meet during the early stages after a claim.  I expect to make a lot of changes, and your feedback will help.

First I do want to make clear a couple of things that address the concerns you guys brought up on this thread:

1) In response to Firsty's "roundup of customers" concern, policyholders could choose to have an anonymous policy and would even have the option of keeping their identity secret from the entire company, at least up until the point where they submit a claim.
2) In response to earthhaven, the current draft covers both use and possession of Marijuana/Cannabis, no matter the quantity
3) With regard to Firsty's suggestion that cops or others might angry and vindictive upon learning about your claim; it's true we can't control their emotions or control every person who calls them on their own initiative.  But *our* entire M.O. is *respectful* Gandhi-style treatment of all perpetrators.  It's hard for people to remain angry at that for very long; I've seen how this works first hand many times.
4) For those who cannot afford the insurance, this is a great opportunity for charity, and also an opportunity for the company to defend people from time to time who are not customers.

Anyway, on to the draft contract summary/timeline:

------

STAGE 1: CLAIM ACCEPTANCE
C-day through C-day +2

Having a claim come in should be a big deal.  We'll refer to the day you make a claim as "C-day."   

Within 48 hours of "C-day," we will assign one Freedom Insurance operative to take charge of your case.  In the early stages of our existence, that person will most likely be me.   We'll call, write or visit alleged government perps, let them know what Freedom Insurance is, what it does.  We'll inform them you've made a claim and notify them that we are attempting to determine whether the claim is covered.   We will ask them what each of the charges against you are, if any, and ask them if they can point to any harm or endangerment connected to the charge.  We'll also ask them if you have a criminal *record* that involves hurting or endangering others.  If you're a customer who filled out the application honestly, their answer to this question will have little effect on your defense.

Within that same time frame we will either
 - Accept your claim fully
 - Accept it provisionally
 - Reject it fully or...
 - Reject it provisionally

Since the clock will be ticking, the most likely response will be provisional.  We'll follow it up as soon as practical with full acceptance or rejection.

Once we accept a claim, we will from that day forward fight for one of two outcomes:

A) Authorities drop all covered charges
B) Authorities come to an agreement with you that you find acceptable enough to go along with

If they have seized properties, our goal will be to see them returned. If they *want* to seize properties, our goal will be to see the seizure never occurs. 

You should understand however, that the most common outcome is likely to be a stalemate, where authorities find it politically difficult to actually enforce their charges/seizures, but keep them hanging over your head.   Getting them to do the right thing is never going to be easy, but we can at least make doing the wrong thing painful or politically impractical for them.


STAGE 2:  YOUR DEFENSE BEGINS
C-day +2 through C-day +4

If your claim is accepted, provisionally or fully, we'll then refer to any prewritten instructions you've given us.  If lines of communication are open we'll first inquire regarding any type of social support you might need.  Social support is not our primary focus, and our ability to deliver it will be spotty.  But we will at least want to know what you're most in need of in this regard so we can put out a call for volunteers or take other limited action. 

We'll then check with you to see if you have any new requests of us, any guidelines you want us to follow in this situation.  You may if you wish simply turn us loose to act on our initiative without a preset agenda.  Sometimes this is more effective.  But if none of your requests or instructions conflict with or supercede it, we will begin following the course of action below.

Within four days of receiving your claim we will complete at least five of the following six action items:

1)  We'll make more contact with your persecutors, letting them know your claim has been accepted and that you will not be standing alone.  We'll respectfully ask them to do the right thing and end whatever persecutions are covered.
2) We'll perform a demonstration at or near perp offices, or at a reasonable location of your choosing.   At this early stage a one-man "microprotest" is the most likely outcome, but we've seen how these can be effective.   
3) We'll draft a letter-to-editor for publication in one of your local papers and send or read it to you.
4) We'll draft a small ad for publication in one of your local papers and send or read it to you.
5) We'll post alerts about your case to at least four of New Hampshire's best pro-liberty web forums and e-mail lists.
6) We'll make an announcement on Free Talk Live about your plight.  FTL is a nationally syndicated show originating from Keene and airing on 15 commercial radio stations.

If we learn of a potential claim but *lack* open lines of communication, things will unfold more sloppily at first, but perhaps more energetically.  We'll focus on getting *to* C-day.

Presumably our communications will be down because you're imprisoned; that does tend to mobilize us.  We'll focus on determining your status, re-establishing communication and questioning your tormenters.  We'll try to find out whether you're being persecuted in a way that would trigger a claim.  We'll look over your prewritten instructions.  We'll take whatever other action seems appropriate based on the situation until we can establish communications and start the normal claim process above.     

STAGE 3:  YOUR DEFENSE INTENSIFIES
C-day +5 through C-day +15

If at this point your claim has not been rejected, nor your persecution ended, we will intensify the conflict as rapidly as practical.  We'll again defer to you regarding your suggestions and preferences.  If none of your instructions conflict with or supercede them, we will fulfill at least 8 or the following 10 action items below within *15* days of receiving your claim:

1) Organize a somewhat larger sign-wielding demonstration in your support, consisting of at least five protesters.  We could hold this any number of places.  One thought would be to do it in front of your business, if you have one and feel it would benefit from the attention.
2) Submit the ad and the LTE we crafted during Stage 2.
3) Prepare a new ad and two new LTEs, and send or read them to you. This could be a radio ad or print ad.
4) Make an announcement about your plight on a second NH radio show.
5) Make a second announcement on Free Talk Live, an update on your situation.
6) Send a representative to perp offices who will attempt to meet in person with your tormenters and ask questions, make the moral case for dropping charges/returning property, etc. 
7) Make sure the perp(s) receive at least ten opposing calls, e-mails or other contacts from at least three different people.
8 ) Widen the internet discussion of your case by posting messages about it on at least four of the state's most active web forums.  Post updates to the forums and mailing lists we contacted during Stage 2.
9) Generate one or more articles/news items in the mainstream press
10) Make contact with one or more of the perps' superiors and express our concern with the perps' actions.  A superior in this case might be an elected official such as a selectman or mayor.

STAGE 4:  SETTLING IN FOR THE SEIGE

(To be continued)

-------

Questions:  What should be the consequences if we fail to deliver the promised number of action items during one of these stages?   Should there be some kind of Domino's Pizza style reward people receive if we don't deliver in time?  What should that reward be? 

My brainstorm would be give them 150 bucks or equivalent in precious metals for any stage we fail, but you may have a better idea.  I doubt we would fail stages very often but it's good to have something concrete we can do to make it good if we drop the ball or circumstances make a stage completion impossible.

The downside of this would be that it could tend to lock us into a regimen rather than loosing our initiative upon the perps.  Hopefully the steps above are flexible enough, and I suspect we just need to trust the customer to know whether it is best to waive protocol and move to an initiative-based defense. 




Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 15, 2006, 05:49 PM NHFT
2 people have now signed on to be among the "first 8" customers

Six more to go, deadline is October 15.  PM, post here or otherwise contact me if you want to be in this group of early policyholders.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 16, 2006, 01:20 AM NHFT

Questions:  What should be the consequences if we fail to deliver the promised number of action items during one of these stages?   Should there be some kind of Domino's Pizza style reward people receive if we don't deliver in time?  What should that reward be? 

6-12 months of free coverage?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: tracysaboe on September 16, 2006, 01:24 AM NHFT
Looks good Dada.

6 months of free coverage would be a good option. Many people might not like you guys as all and want a refund, but 6-months free coverage would be much better, and many might be willing to let us keep their money for another 6-months, if they saw any benifit at all for what we were doing. Unfortunitely, this sort of thing wouldn't work for people who actively engage in civil disobedience -- because they'd likely have free coverage forever, and the business would get spread too thin.

In regards to eminent domain cases, I think offering to stand with them in front of the bull dozers or whatever would be a good touch. But, perhaps not practical at this stage.

Tracy
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 16, 2006, 01:33 AM NHFT
Dave,

I was thinking that FI could be the organizer for resistance as well.  This approach would guarantee more volunteers, plus more publicity for FI as a result of the coverage and attention extra volunteers would generate.  Here's the idea:

You could collect information on risky civil disobedience acts that clients would like to take part in, but are only willing to when others are also ready to do the same.  Say, witholding property taxes, smoking marijuana, driving with no tag, etc.  (You could present clients with a checklist of already thought of ideas as well as a write-in area for new ideas.)

You could enter the information into a database and track each client's preferences in reference to how many others they want to join them in each civil disobedience act (x).  Once x is reached for each client, you could notify the client so they could feel comfortable taking action.

You could help clients with common CD interests meet up, and you can protect those clients who wish to be anonymous.  Clients need not be concerned with who all the willing CD participants are, as you are acting as the intermediary, so there is no doubt the anonymous people exist.

Clients could also agree to volunteer to defend other clients for certain CD, and commit to showing up at FI scheduled events, making calls, etc.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 16, 2006, 09:51 AM NHFT
I like the free coverage idea Tracy.

My first thought on Ian's "organizer for resistance" idea is that we would indeed be organizers for resistance, but we'd need to focus that resistance like a laser, at the point of enforcement.  Do we want to go out there and expend energy and resources pushing back against bureaucracies or laws that have not yet triggered a claim, and may never, or do we want to focus our resistance on defending an *individual* who has a specific case?

It seems like the latter will generate just as much publicity but will all be focused on the individual with the claim, and their tormenters.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your proposal...maybe if you could outline a hypothetical situation that would help me understand it better.  I'll probably get ideas from it even if I don't like the basic premise. 

Anyway, assuming I have interpreted your idea correctly, the other concern I'd have is this:  Just because someone knows that ten other NH residents are going to drive without a license all year or what not, that doesn't necessarily make that individual any safer driving without a license that year.   Those ten others will be nowhere near when they get pulled over, and their existence won't deter the cop. 

On the other hand, compiling a database of some kind does have advantages, *if* it's anonymous.   I also like the idea of organizing customers a bit, urging them to help out as volunteers, and having a way of contacting them all, quickly by very occasional mass email if they agree to it.   And yes we do want to inspire them to break bad laws, by making sure they know they'll have support if they get hassled for it.  I can also envision acts of civil dis by the company, if they are focused on a customer with a claim, or perhaps on an employee.  That will likely show up in stage four or five of the contract/timeline once I have it complete.

But if we are going to keep the premium low and our defense robust we have to be sure we don't do much of anything off-mission.....the goal is to protect the customer against a limited and well-defined set of threats.  In order to do that well, we may need to do that only.



Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Tom Sawyer on September 16, 2006, 12:37 PM NHFT
I think this is a very valuable service. :)

My only negative would be that I think the term Insurance should be avoided. Makes an easy target for the regulators to attack.

Perhaps Freedom Protective Service (as an example).

Plus this would allow the Federal Protective Service employees to work for a better company, without even changing the acronym they work for. (Well... this is a stupid reason, but I found it entertaining.)
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: tracysaboe on September 16, 2006, 02:15 PM NHFT
Dada, all I was suggesting, is that if worse comes-to-worse, and we can't get the state to not steal a person'a property, we could come to their aid and help practice civil disobedience for them to keep it -- up untill the bitter end.

IF we had a client that such a thing happened to.

Tracy
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 16, 2006, 02:42 PM NHFT
I guess I will not be signing up, but I can help some other people. I can't promise anything .... you never know when the feds may jail me.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 16, 2006, 06:00 PM NHFT
Okay.. to give one example:

I'm interested in refusing to pay property taxes.  However, I'm not courageous enough to go this one alone.  While I could create a Pledgebank agreement and attempt to promote it, there's no way for me to know for sure whether pledgebank signers are real, committed people.

Instead, you could collect the information as I earlier specified.  Say I'm comfortable witholding property taxes when 50 others are also willing to do so.  When you reach 50 clients who are also willing to withhold, you would alert me that the number has been reached.  I need not be concerned about whether the 50 are really there, because you are the credible intermediary.

Not only do I know for sure there are others out there doing the same, but I also know they are clients in good standing with your Freedom Protection Service.  I also know the 50 are willing to volunteer to help FPS should anything happen to another one of the 50.  That's valuable piece of mind.

I hope I made that clear.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 17, 2006, 03:57 PM NHFT

Tracy wrote:

<< Dada, all I was suggesting, is that if worse comes-to-worse, and we can't get the state to not steal a person'a property, we could come to their aid and help practice civil disobedience for them to keep it -- up untill the bitter end.>>

I'm thinking one service we could make available would be that of "guarding" their property in some form or fashion while they are out, like the Kelo people did.   By this obviously I do not mean an armed patrol or anything, just folks being present at their homes and ready delay the bad guys or call in the cavalry.

Customers could choose to have us focus on this instead of some of the prewritten contractual obligations that might be of less value to them.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 17, 2006, 04:04 PM NHFT
Regarding Ian's most recent post..

Hmm...the part I like about this is the idea of a questionnaire we submit to customers, which does indirectly encourage them not to pay the property tax.    It would be a long time though before we have enough customers on board to expect even 10 people signing up for mutual property tax resistance.

I also like the idea of mobilizing customers, keeping them involved.  Also there is potentially a selfish reason why customers might show up in defense of other customers...they know their turn may come and their connections with other customers would tend to facilitate a larger defense.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 17, 2006, 04:13 PM NHFT

Regarding Roger's idea of a better name for the organization...

Maybe we *should*  talk about that.  Anyone have name suggestions?
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 17, 2006, 06:46 PM NHFT
Freedom Preservation Squad
Liberty Protection Agency
Liberty Defenders


Just throwing out ideas, I don't have a favorite.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Braddogg on September 17, 2006, 11:46 PM NHFT
Russell sparked a question in my mind: what happens to premiums and payment of a policy holder while and after being jailed?  The policy was set, I believe, at $1/day to start.  How would changes in this be handled?  What sort of possible instructions might one write before being sent to the klink?  I am weary of allowing the Liberty Loss Prevention Organization to expand to include organized CD not related to claims already in progress; I imagine that an LLPO might eventually have its hands full taking care of claims already in progress.  Is the goal to make people more comfortable with the prospect of [performing CD]/[ignoring laws] or just to spring them once they do?  It seems like the former, in which case offering social support -- babysitting so that a parent can continue to work, frozen homemade dinners for spouses and families, a shoulder for a significant other or child to lean on when they feel frustrated, etc. -- might be worthwhile; however, that may be out of the range of possibilities for a formally organized business and may be better for an informal support network.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 18, 2006, 01:15 PM NHFT
Is the goal to make people more comfortable with the prospect of [performing CD]/[ignoring laws] or just to spring them once they do?

What does "spring them" mean to you? :)
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: tracysaboe on September 18, 2006, 02:12 PM NHFT
Tracy wrote:

<< Dada, all I was suggesting, is that if worse comes-to-worse, and we can't get the state to not steal a person'a property, we could come to their aid and help practice civil disobedience for them to keep it -- up untill the bitter end.>>

I'm thinking one service we could make available would be that of "guarding" their property in some form or fashion while they are out, like the Kelo people did.   By this obviously I do not mean an armed patrol or anything, just folks being present at their homes and ready delay the bad guys or call in the cavalry.

Customers could choose to have us focus on this instead of some of the prewritten contractual obligations that might be of less value to them.

That sounds good.

Tracy
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Barterer on September 18, 2006, 08:49 PM NHFT
Regarding Ian's most recent post..

Hmm...the part I like about this is the idea of a questionnaire we submit to customers, which does indirectly encourage them not to pay the property tax.    It would be a long time though before we have enough customers on board to expect even 10 people signing up for mutual property tax resistance.
I'd also be interested in not paying rent on property I own, though in lieu of complete witholding I'd probably pull a Kat&Russell and just not pay a portion of the tax I view as BS.  Regarding the size of the group, I think it would take a lot more than 10 owners acting at once to avoid property confiscation, unless the town is very small.  So that seems a way off..

But speaking of that, once the FI business has been going a while and built up significant reserves, fine/confiscation reimbursement could be bought as an add-on to the policy.  General fine/confiscation costs for each class of "crime" could be looked up and set as the "up to x amount" reimbursement.

That would bring the service more in line with the label "Freedom Insurance"  though of the names mentioned so far, "Freedom Protection Agency" seems the most fitting.  Plus the "Agency" part lends a whiff of government-like.. officialness, making it harder to spin as "illegal activity insurace" like firsty pointed out.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on September 20, 2006, 01:43 AM NHFT
ok....absorbing all this new feedback...keep it coming if you like.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Dave Ridley on October 29, 2006, 11:49 AM NHFT
Last month I indicated that this project would move forward if I had eight people more or less committed to becoming policyholders before Oct. 15.   The number I actually got by that time was 3.   Of course I probably could have *recruited* eight people to make this commitment but felt it was important not to do a ton of that, so that I might observe how much momentum this idea currently has on its own.

It looks like our numbers are not yet sufficient to make a project like this take off, so I will put the idea on the back burner and concentrate on other things for now.   This concept has however sponosored a related idea which I plan to explore with you guys later.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Braddogg on October 29, 2006, 12:08 PM NHFT
I do like the idea, and I think that some day there will be a big market for it.  Hopefully that day will be sooner rather than later.  Thanks for coming up with a feasible plan for a great concept.  Good luck on the next project.
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: Tom Sawyer on October 29, 2006, 02:27 PM NHFT
Right now, I feel, we are building confidence that folks will come to each others aid.
That is why it is important to stand up for each other... trust and confidence. 8)
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: tracysaboe on April 25, 2007, 12:18 PM NHFT
Dada:

Gil Guillory has a 2nd working paper about this same issue, so I thought I should post this, and rebump the thread to put some life back into this idea.

The Legal Landscape for Subscription Patrol and Restitution in Texas
http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/guillory3.pdf

Don't really know how much of this applies to NH but I think it's worth reading.

Tracy
Title: Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
Post by: ninetales1234 on May 01, 2007, 10:25 PM NHFT
Here's an advantage I thought of related to not covering certain controversial things....

In the future, we could expand our coverage to include those things, and when we do, it will probably make the news.

the other advantage is that we keep those controversial things off our back at first.
Good idea!

Policyholder defense would *not* involve:
Attorneys (not yet anyway)
Reimbursement for fines (That would be like indirectly paying off the authorities)
Good idea.
When you get attorneys, try not to get ones that work within the morally corrupt system, and debate the law, but instead are willing to debate the Constitution (like you!).

I'm interested in refusing to pay property taxes.  However, I'm not courageous enough to go this one alone.  While I could create a Pledgebank agreement and attempt to promote it, there's no way for me to know for sure whether pledgebank signers are real, committed people.

Instead, you could collect the information as I earlier specified.  Say I'm comfortable witholding property taxes when 50 others are also willing to do so.  When you reach 50 clients who are also willing to withhold, you would alert me that the number has been reached.  I need not be concerned about whether the 50 are really there, because you are the credible intermediary.
I think I'll be interested in it too when I move to NH. This would definitely be a good side service offered by the insurance company. I've got a pledgebank pledge going on right now, and I have no way of knowing for sure whether the signers are serious. My pledge isn't too important, but if I were doing something big like refusing to pay taxes it would be nice to have an alternative way of recording signatures.

I also like the idea of mobilizing customers, keeping them involved.  Also there is potentially a selfish reason why customers might show up in defense of other customers...they know their turn may come and their connections with other customers would tend to facilitate a larger defense.
Oh yeah! Free market logic FTW!

Do you think I should rule myself ineligible for policy?
Yes, if you're getting a salary from the organization.
I think people will come to your aid anyway ;)