New Hampshire Underground

LocalParty.Org hopes a good third party will start to exist in our otherwise two party system. We sincerely hope the NH movement will succeed.

LocalParty.Org (we're California based) delivers information on why the two party system is so restrictive, and why only the two parties are mostly successful (though not everywhere).

Our system is much like walking into a car dealership: when looking for a car to buy, and seeing that they only have two models available, the disappointing shocker becomes obvious for there is not much choice at all. Far worse, however, is the fact that, next, you have to buy the car the majority of the clients want. You don't get to choose the car you want: it is decided collectively for you.

If a third party becomes an option (which we hope), the car dealership does not all of a sudden have three models to sell: only two models are for sale at each car dealership, but now, some car dealerships may have a different set of two models instead. Nevertheless, if you walk into your dealership, you still have to get the car the majority chooses.

LocalParty.Org has three goals: promote local political competition, when possible help change the district system into that of PR, and deliver education where that seems appropriate (hopefully you will accept us at this site too).

The alternative? In Proportional Representation you walk into a dealership with plenty of choice, and you get the car you want.

Which of the two options sounds more like the American way to you?

http://LocalParty.Org

In the following graphic two democracies are shown: on the left side the district system, on the right side proportional elections. The actual outcomes of the United States Senate (soon to be changed) are used as an example for district elections, while the national elections in Sweden are used as an example for proportional elections. And it shows, it takes a lot more voters to have a majority in proportional elections than we have here in the US. The graphs show up too small on this website, but you can see how the orange on the left is half as small (18% of all eligible voters) as the orange space on the right side (40% of all eligible voters). More information on democratic engines: http://www.localparty.org/engine.html

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This may be the last post created on this web site. The graphs we are very proud of hardly show up. Here is another one: It shows the trend of voter turn-out over a long period of time for various democracies. The yellow/orange color shows which nations elect in districts, the green which nations vote in proportional elections, and in blue which nations make use of a mix of both versions.

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No. not much luck with the grahs: they are too small. Farewell then, and good luck with getting Libertarians on the political map. I end with one more map on income and consumption distribution of the 10% richest people in all nations of the world.

Best regards,

LocalParty.Org

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Quote from: LocalParty.Org on November 04, 2006, 07:13 PM NHFT
No. not much luck with the grahs: they are too small.

The graphs are just fine. All you have to do to see them is click on them.

QuoteFarewell then, and good luck with getting Libertarians on the political map.

Might want to learn how the forum works before giving up so easily.

Kevin

Other- Those sound like types of republican government, not democratic.  A democratic government is like a small town in NH, for example.  Whereas, American has a republican form of government.

"Question:      What kind of democracy delivers the most freedom to its people?"

There's no check-box for "Democracies don't deliver freedom.  They rob it."  I hate how damn near everyone just haphazzardly tosses around certain words.  As much as it galls me to quote a popmous, hippocritiucal douche-bag like Rush Limbaugh:  Words mean things.

I am glad to read that none of you is willing to give up so easily. Too many Americans don't care that much about politics, so that's a nice change. Thanks for taking the trouble to click on the graph links.

QuoteWords mean things

If words are important, then I would like to hear your opinion on what the word representative means.

Quote from: TheDUDE on November 04, 2006, 10:02 PM NHFT
popmous, hippocritiucal douche-bag like Rush Limbaugh: 

;D ;D ;D

One vote for town, one vote for county, one vote for national. That's the way we do it here in Sweden, you can vote for 3 different parties if you want. Personally I voted for The Moderate Party on town and local, and the libertarian party on the national level.

I'm with Dude.  Pure democracy becomes mobocracy when it advances beyond the level at which you can have direct influence, knowledge and input. i.e., the aforementioned town meetings.

Our current democratic representative republic isn't all that bad, and it would be better if so many liberals and do-gooders hadn't messed with it over the last century.

Anyone from Calif. should know how destructive pure democracy can be in a large venue just by thinking back over a few of the things that have made the ballots in the Calif. initiative process over the past decade.  (I realize Calif.'s liberal initiative process is necessary to get around our state's highly politicized, corrupt, do-nothing legislature, but it's sure a messy way of doing it.)

Case in point would be the fact that Italy, which arguably has had the world's most screwed up government since the end of WW II, is at the top of the democratic participation graph posted earlier.
If the US had been a pure democracy, slavery would still be legal and women would be waiting for the right to vote.

It ain't so much the system of voting, as much as the apathy of the voters, and the do-gooders who run for office thinking they can make the world a better place.... by getting their people in control of the government apparatus.

Quote from: d_goddard on November 07, 2006, 01:55 PM NHFT
.... by getting their people in control of the government apparatus.

.... and spending my money.

A democracy means that 51% of the people are the rulers of the other 49%. Which means that the 49% will become indentured servants to the majority. Humm that does not seem like a good type of government to me.

Government does not deliver freedom. Your ability to exercise your rights is what freedom is.

Cool answers with me.

QuoteA democracy means that 51% of the people are the rulers of the other 49%.

That is only true when 100% of the people go vote. If 40% stays home, 51% is actually only 30.5% (which can happen in any democracy). And if on top of that 40% of those who do vote, vote for the loser (which is what happens in district elections where winner-takes-all), 51% is only 18%, Slim. Quite scary, isn't it?

Italy has compulsory voting, so there's a good reason for ending up in top of the list of voter turn-out. But politics there are a hot issue that makes people really come out to vote too, and with the many choices available to them, Italians actually have a lot of freedom. The one thing, though, that really screws up their system is that their coalition government must have the green light not from one, but from both houses. No other democracy does it that way (as far as I know), and in my eyes it doesn't make much sense; why create a balance that can get tipped by two different houses?

I agree with you about your California remark, Kurt. While initiatives are great when you're stuck in the mud to get yourself unstuck, they are still nothing more than up and down votes on issues that were presented by interest groups. Democracy should be more intelligent than that ? but it is still better than just having the two parties take turns for it allows for more citizen participation.

Quote from: LocalParty.Org on November 09, 2006, 12:06 AM NHFT
Italy has compulsory voting [...]
Italians actually have a lot of freedom

I hope you can see the internal contradiction in those two statements.

Also, the second statement is blatantly false.
The people who bitch and moan about GWB should really have a look at what Berlusconi has been up to lately.
I'm not saying GWB is wonderful; I'm saying Italy is LESS FREE than the USA on pretty much every front, but it also has institutionalized corruption.
Nice.

Let's refine the answer (both our answers) a tiny bit then. While Italians are 'forced' to go vote, once they are in the voting booth there is plenty of choice... Definitively a lot more than what we've got here. Italians get fined if they don't go vote, so except for a monetary fine you can stay home if you really want to. Alternative if you really don't want to express a political preference is to go vote, and mark the ballot in such a way it becomes invalid: no vote, no fine, just a forced walk to your neighborhood polling place.

Quote from: Keith and Stuff on November 04, 2006, 09:24 PM NHFT
Other- Those (options) sound like types of republican government, not democratic.  A democratic government is like a small town in NH, for example.  Whereas, American has a republican form of government.

Don't get me wrong; I think town meetings are definitively excellent ways to address local issues, some of which have far-reaching implications beyond the local community. But modern life is not just local: it is state/federal and global ? whether we like that or not. If there is such a thing as the state level or the federal level, then I want to be able to have my say on that level as well.

And district elections are not doing the job. I would rather vote for ? and be represented by ? a Libertarian from New Hampshire than being denied a local representative here in my district in California because my choice did not make the grade of 50%. I hate being muted all the time, and I consider moving to a district where my kind of guy is in control a more severe restriction than what the Italians have to go through once every four years ? forced to go to their local voting booth. I'd rather have proportional representation, so my voice is actually represented (but I would not insist on compulsory voting).

Quote from: LocalParty.Org on November 11, 2006, 03:28 PM NHFT
Italians get fined if they don't go vote, so except for a monetary fine you can stay home if you really want to.

You clearly have not learned the fundamental lesson about laws:
All laws are the threat of deadly force for noncompliance, pure plain and simple.

Moreover, the best way to get mobocracy is to force the uninformed to vote.
You cannot use threats of force to make people think; that just Does Not Work.

we live in a constitutionally limited democratic republic.

winner take all district voting was designed by the founders to eliminate factionalism by concentrating politics into two parties.

Quote from: d_goddard on November 12, 2006, 05:30 AM NHFT
You cannot use threats of force to make people think; that just Does Not Work.

Reminds me of the compulsory education system in America...  ::)

Quote from: d_goddard on November 12, 2006, 05:30 AM NHFT
You clearly have not learned the fundamental lesson about laws:
All laws are the threat of deadly force for noncompliance, pure plain and simple.

I do not agree with the Italians being forced to go vote; I rather have each person decide for themselves whether to go vote or not because I believe in freedom of expression ? and that includes staying home if you don't want to express your opinion at the polls. Yet once the voters in proportional electing nations are in the voting booth, they have the option to express their beliefs a lot better than we do here with our having to choose between a single district winner and everyone else as losers. Forty percent of the voters basically become losers here. A good number of voters here, while having voted their entire life, never got the representative they voted for. And if you can't express your voice on that level, you are muted, left along the sideline as unimportant. I simply demand being represented, that's all, and the simple truth is that currently many of us are not represented.

QuoteI rather have each person decide for themselves whether to go vote or not because I believe in freedom of expression ? and that includes staying home if you don't want to express your opinion at the polls.

the problem with voting as the single expression of MASS democracy is that people are easily manipulated and that breeds cynicism.

it is only small-scale, face-to-face, participatory and DELIBERATIVE bodies (Jefferson's ward republic) that can't be manipulated and is the heart of the civic republican ideal of practicing virtuous behavior as the full expression of individual freedom.

Quote from: FrankChodorov on November 12, 2006, 03:19 PM NHFT
It is only small-scale, face-to-face, participatory and DELIBERATIVE bodies (Jefferson's ward republic) that can't be manipulated and is the heart of the civic republican ideal of practicing virtuous behavior as the full expression of individual freedom.

Are you saying that you want to exit the United States and become an independent community? It would not help much. Globalization is here to stay (and may have started as long back as the Portuguese sailing around the world); we are participants on every level: local, state, federal, and global. If you only want to vote at the local level ? that's a freedom you have ? but if you want to participate on the other levels ? that's a freedom that is mostly restricted. By chosing not to participate on the other levels, you give away the remaining freedom of those levels to others ? and I can assure you they (the larger companies, the larger governmental agencies, and the larger special interest groups) are all too happy if you don't open up your mouth.

Quote from: FrankChodorov on November 12, 2006, 03:19 PM NHFT
the problem with voting as the single expression of MASS democracy is that people are easily manipulated and that breeds cynicism.

Well, cynicism has been bred in our 2 party-system more than plenty. Of course full representation is not a system that is going to work just perfectly well after a single election, yet by slowly putting proportional elections in place (for instance, start at the local level first), we can learn how this other democratic system works. And believe me, proportional representation does come a lot closer to how local community meetings function than how the two party system functions; proportional representation is more like the round table of King Arthur (who played the role of what we would call manager today, rather than king). Compromise, thorough and thoughtful debate, and looking for pragmatic long-lasting solutions, all are more part of full representation than winner-takes-all.

I agree with you that there is nothing better than being able to talk face to face with neighbors, friends, and local people about issues that concern us all. But what to do when there are issues that concern us all that come from beyond the reach of our community? In our modern world, these issues exist. Not dealing with them means giving the others from outside a free hand.

QuoteGlobalization is here to stay

yes until peak oil hits and we stop subsidizing distribution...Ralph Borsodi in painstaking detail showed that small-scale production is more efficient than large-scale until the distribution subsidies kick in.

Quotewhat to do when there are issues that concern us all that come from beyond the reach of our community?

confederation...

Quote from: FrankChodorov on November 15, 2006, 10:21 PM NHFT

QuoteGlobalization is here to stay

yes until peak oil hits and we stop subsidizing distribution...Ralph Borsodi in painstaking detail showed that small-scale production is more efficient than large-scale until the distribution subsidies kick in.

Quotewhat to do when there are issues that concern us all that come from beyond the reach of our community?

confederation...

Damn, Frank, I agree with you again. This is getting spooky.  ???

Aha, exiting without exiting!

But it make us weaker when there are global players, and we organize ourselves loosely. If that's how you want to play. Good luck! But this is an automatic win for the large players.