Hey all-
I have been wondering what people here thought about the American Liberty Dollar? (reminds me of the ounce gold coins found in the wonderful Sci-Fi novel, The Probability Broach, by L. Neil Smith that features Albert Gallatin on the front and a whiskey jug on the back...)
Don't know what it is? See here: http://www.libertydollar.org
I am trying to see if I can get enough people interested in becoming Liberty Associates so that we have at least one per county. Great if we can have one per town/city but county works for now.
Anyone interested? I really want to see how we can get the free-market money movement roaring in NH.
JP
The Liberty Dollar is a scam.? It claims to be worth $10, and you try to tell people it is, when in fact an ounce of silver is only worth $6.68.? I repeat... one ounce of silver is worth $6.68, not $10.
I've been opposing this scam currency for a long time.? bleh.
Just accept gold and silver bullion as payment like I do.? At least most bullion and coins do not claim to be worth anything more than "one ounce of gold" or silver.? It would be a difficult endeavor indeed to get people to accept pure gold or silver as payment, but it's sure possible.
...but not with the liberty dollar. At least not honestly.
From the NORFED Website:
But why should I pay twice the price for silver?
Put simply, you aren't. The Liberty Dollar is a currency, not an investment. If you want to buy silver at the spot price, then buy silver bullion. Of course, you'll have to buy quite a large quantity to get it that low.
We are trying to bring about a positive political and economic reform, and that costs money--not to mention the costs of minting, storage, insurance, printing and distribution, bookkeeping, supporting the Liberty Associates, advertising, and all the other usual expenses of a free-market enterprise which have to be paid for.
Remember, when you accept a $100 Federal Reserve Note, you are trading $100 worth of goods or services for a 3-cent piece of paper, backed by nothing but debt and delusion. Partial-backing with value is infinitely better than zero-backing with debt.
More information: http://www.libertydollar.org/html/silvertwice.asp
I have been involved in the movement since it's first year. I have full trust in the board of directors and with my friend, Mr. Von NotHaus.
I too accept gold and silver bullion in payment of debt. The Liberty Dollar just makes it easier to get a mass movement going, and that costs money.
JP
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on January 03, 2005, 01:26 AM NHFT
The Liberty Dollar is a scam. It claims to be worth $10, and you try to tell people it is, when in fact an ounce of silver is only worth $6.68. I repeat... one ounce of silver is worth $6.68, not $10.
I've been opposing this scam currency for a long time. bleh.
Just accept gold and silver bullion as payment like I do. At least most bullion and coins do not claim to be worth anything more than "one ounce of gold" or silver. It would be a difficult endeavor indeed to get people to accept pure gold or silver as payment, but it's sure possible.
...but not with the liberty dollar. At least not honestly.
And the price on an ounce of silver fluctuates day by day, it was $7.30 a few days ago, it has been $9 at a few points this past summer.
I have always liked the norfed liberty dollar. There probably are enough exchange places in NH to cover each county already. :)
I do agree with Mike though. I would rather just use any 1 onze gold or silver coin and you could value it however you see fit.
Quote from: jcpliberty on January 03, 2005, 02:41 AM NHFT
From the NORFED Website:
But why should I pay twice the price for silver?
Remember, when you accept a $100 Federal Reserve Note, you are trading $100 worth of goods or services for a 3-cent piece of paper, backed by nothing but debt and delusion. Partial-backing with value is infinitely better than zero-backing with debt.
I agree that something worth $6.63 passing for "$10" is infinitely better than something worth nothing passing for $10. But that does not change the fact that you are giving a coin to people and telling them it's worth $10 when it's not.
Silver never hit $9 this summer as far as I am aware. As it was increasing in value, NORFED started to talk about doubling the value of the liberty dollar to $20.
If you read the stories on the NORFED website about people who have used the liberty dollar and gotten away with it, some of them even admit that they feel as though they have done something wrong when they actually did something "good".
When you give silver or gold as payment, you can always ask for a markup of the price by a FEW percent over market value because most bullion is worth a little more than pure silver or gold, but we're talking about a few percent here. I'll give someone a silver coin in return for $7.50 even though silver is only $6.68 because that's value of a coin, not because I'm trying to make a profit.
That's a 12% premium on silver that I pay. ouch. But NORFED silver coins go for a 50% premium right now. The only people who would pay this amount are those who have no idea of the value of precious metals.
Previously circulated silver coins and bullion are best. That way the premium is much lower.
I really like the idea of using previously circulated coins. Or wouldn't it be great to have a real silver coin minted in NH? 8)
Quote from: russellkanning on January 03, 2005, 09:18 AM NHFT
I really like the idea of using previously circulated coins. Or wouldn't it be great to have a real silver coin minted in NH? 8)
That would be cool.
But when talking about "previously circulated coins", you have to watch out for the junk silver from the early 1900s.
I like the Liberty Dollar. it is something to start with, seeing that the US Government went off the gold and silver standard long ago, thus depriving its citizens of a "worthwhile" currency. I accept it as payment for services in my business, and welcome it most graciously.
I try not to be too much of a "purist" about the liberty dollar. The USD is not backed by anything of value, so almost anything is better. :)
I think that we ought to see if the FSP would back the Liberty Dollar and help us to increase its usage here in NH. Anybody game?
Quote from: Scott Roth on January 18, 2005, 07:33 PM NHFT
I think that we ought to see if the FSP would back the Liberty Dollar and help us to increase its usage here in NH. Anybody game?
I'm game!
JP
Somehow, I knew YOU would be! 8)
Quote from: Scott Roth on January 18, 2005, 08:31 PM NHFT
Somehow, I knew YOU would be! 8)
I think we first must show some sort of sign that we are in this for the long haul, like starting a Regional Currency Office
JP
Lori and I would love to do that, when we can get the finances together. That way, we would have an inventory of Liberty Dollars at hand and be in a better position to promote them. So, any ideas for creative financing?
Quote from: Scott Roth on January 18, 2005, 08:46 PM NHFT
Lori and I would love to do that, when we can get the finances together. That way, we would have an inventory of Liberty Dollars at hand and be in a better position to promote them. So, any ideas for creative financing?
Not sure yet. Somehow we'd need to raise $2,000 to have on hand at all times... yike! Let's just become Liberty Associates first, that is only $250 to become one. We can each become a Liberty Associate and then we should get together and write out a business plan perhaps?
JP
We're planning on registering as associates in February. How about if we sponsor you?
Quote from: Scott Roth on January 18, 2005, 09:19 PM NHFT
We're planning on registering as associates in February. How about if we sponsor you?
Sponsor me?
JP
Sure, why not?
Lori and I are going to be sponsored by Fred Davideit from Hillsboro. He is the gentleman that introduced me to the Liberty Dollar, amongst other radical things.
Quote from: Scott Roth on January 18, 2005, 09:27 PM NHFT
Lori and I are going to be sponsored by Fred Davideit from Hillsboro. He is the gentleman that introduced me to the Liberty Dollar, amongst other radical things.
I don;t understand what that means... aaaaaaahhhhhhhh ???
JP
The lights are on...but you're not home...your mind...is not your own...
I usually do not stand in the way of someone who is moving in the same direction as I am, but I must take a very strong stand on this issue on the basis of ethics.
REAL coin mints all over the world decorate silver and gold bullion with beautiful designs (this adds value) in an attempt to profit from the higher added value of the coin.? This is a legitimate and ethical practice.
The Liberty Dollar does not attempt to do this.? It attempts to have people "pass it off" as far more than it's worth.? This is absolutely blatantly unethical and nothing they say will ever change that.? UNLESS, of course, they decide to remove the purposely-misleading dollar ("$") value from their coins.
IN ANY CASE, if you want to do some ethical, positive action RIGHT NOW, then you should consider starting a local commodity-investment-based currency like Borsodi Constants in New Hampshire.
Borsodi Constants were a currency IN NEW HAMPSHIRE? :o created by the pro-independent-living, anti-fiat-currency activist, experimenter, and researcher Ralph Borsodi.
At some point, I will do this project if nobody else does!? ;)
I know all about Ralph Borsodi. He was featured several times in The Mother Earth News, which I have faithfully read since the 1970's, and I was also fortunate enough to meet him at The Green Earth in Exeter, along with Rick Perry & Company. He was an articulate man and I loved alot of his theories for a better and just society. I think that bringing back the Borsodi Constant has alot of merit Mike, and I hope that maybe you can devise a plan as to how to coordinate such an effort to bring it back to the forfront of monetary exchange here in NH. In the meantime, the Liberty Dollar is an attempt to bring about changes in our monetary system by at least backing it with something, silver and gold being better than nothing at all. Life is a big puzzle...we need more pieces to put the picture together. The LD is just one piece. Maybe together, this forum can be used for something better in that area too. I appreciate your comments. It definitely gets me thinking. Keep it up, my friend. 8)
Scott,
I knew Rick Perry a little, and I think I lived down the street from Ralph Borsodi; at least I knew his name was Borsodi and he was a friend of Rick Perry's. Huh, small world.
Amazing how great things (and people) come full circle! 8)
The one I know the best is Jerry Rooney's ex-wife Janet. She's a hot sketch!!! Also know Joan Harlow who, I believe had a hand in the Green Earth until she started the Loaf & Ladle. Didn't Rick Perry, Jerry Rooney, and Joan start the L & L together? I believe there was a falling out and Rick and Jerry started the Spaghetti Kitchen.
You do remember it well. There was a falling out of sorts and the parties moved on to other endeavors. Really great food at the restaurant. Ooohhhh, I'm hungry for a Veggie & Sprout on Wheatberry. Yum! :-X
Quote from: Scott Roth on January 19, 2005, 10:41 PM NHFT
You do remember it well.? There was a falling out of sorts and the parties moved on to other endeavors.? Really great food at the restaurant.? Ooohhhh, I'm hungry for a Veggie & Sprout on Wheatberry.? Yum! :-X
And the Sourdough rye bread!!!! HEAVENLY! :)
OK Alan, we're just gonna have to get together on your turf at a Water Street address soon.
That sounds good to me. I haven't eaten there lately, for some reason. (probably because I live in town) Hope you won't mind if I have the cheesecake. I can't possibly NOT have some.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on January 19, 2005, 09:15 PM NHFT
IN ANY CASE, if you want to do some ethical, positive action RIGHT NOW, then you should consider starting a local commodity-investment-based currency like Borsodi Constants in New Hampshire.
Borsodi Constants were a currency IN NEW HAMPSHIRE? :o created by the pro-independent-living, anti-fiat-currency activist, experimenter, and researcher Ralph Borsodi.
Tell us more Mike. Where can we find out about this.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on January 19, 2005, 09:15 PM NHFT
I usually do not stand in the way of someone who is moving in the same direction as I am, but I must take a very strong stand on this issue on the basis of ethics.
REAL coin mints all over the world decorate silver and gold bullion with beautiful designs (this adds value) in an attempt to profit from the higher added value of the coin.? This is a legitimate and ethical practice.
The Liberty Dollar does not attempt to do this.? It attempts to have people "pass it off" as far more than it's worth.? This is absolutely blatantly unethical and nothing they say will ever change that.? UNLESS, of course, they decide to remove the purposely-misleading dollar ("$") value from their coins.
IN ANY CASE, if you want to do some ethical, positive action RIGHT NOW, then you should consider starting a local commodity-investment-based currency like Borsodi Constants in New Hampshire.
Borsodi Constants were a currency IN NEW HAMPSHIRE? :o created by the pro-independent-living, anti-fiat-currency activist, experimenter, and researcher Ralph Borsodi.
At some point, I will do this project if nobody else does!? ;)
Your idea has my interest Mike. How would you go about starting this?
Alan
I love Google. ;)
http://www.motherearthnews.com/menarch/archive/issues/027/027-082-01.htm
http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/swann_robert_on_borsodi_and_money.html
http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/swann24.html
Russell and I talked about it for quite a while, but got distracted doing other things.
I've been wanting to do this for a long time, but I have far too many responsibilties right now, and joining this effort would only dilute my highly-diluted efforts. ;)
You can base a currency on labor like the Ithaca Hours, or on a mix of commodities like the Borsodi Constants, or you can just try to start using real gold and silver bullion as currency.
I haven't tried it yet on others, but I will accept silver and gold, at current market values, as payment for any debt that is owed to me.
I have decided Liberty Dollars or gold/silver is the best idea. :)
Quote from: russellkanning on March 29, 2005, 05:43 PM NHFT
I have decided Liberty Dollars or gold/silver is the best idea. :)
I definitely like the idea of real gold and silver bullion.
Why would anyone want to use Liberty Dollars except to make money off the ignorance of others? Just because a lot of people are doing it, that doesn't make it right. Look at it from an objective viewpoint...
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on March 29, 2005, 06:39 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on March 29, 2005, 05:43 PM NHFT
I have decided Liberty Dollars or gold/silver is the best idea. :)
I definitely like the idea of real gold and silver bullion.
Why would anyone want to use Liberty Dollars except to make money off the ignorance of others? Just because a lot of people are doing it, that doesn't make it right. Look at it from an objective viewpoint...
Exactly. Switching to bullion requires an intermediary step. We need to wean the general public off the idea of FRNs. The Liberty Dollar is one of the best ways to do it.
Liberty Dollars are fine as long as you can spend them. For me I can't wait to get my first couple hundred bucks of LD's and see how well they work.
The other thing you can do Mike F. is trade Liberty Dollars at whatever price you like. Like if I was paying you for PC service and didn't have any other gold coins, we could trade them at $8-9 or just as 1oz of silver. :)
Quote from: rhelwig on March 29, 2005, 06:56 PM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on March 29, 2005, 06:39 PM NHFT
Why would anyone want to use Liberty Dollars except to make money off the ignorance of others?? Just because a lot of people are doing it, that doesn't make it right.? Look at it from an objective viewpoint...
Exactly. Switching to bullion requires an intermediary step. We need to wean the general public off the idea of FRNs. The Liberty Dollar is one of the best ways to do it.
ARGH!!!!!!!!!!? *tearing my hair out in frustration*
Is it really that bad?
It is not like RonH is Alan Greenspan or something. ;)
(http://ecourses.pasadena.edu/images/needhelp.jpg)
man Mike we are going to have to redirect some of that anger. :)
maybe I can point you at the Fed and let you go >:D
Quote from: russellkanning on March 30, 2005, 05:57 PM NHFT
maybe I can point you at the Fed and let you go >:D
(http://www.uhca.com/frustrated.jpg)
except for the tie...that could be you Mike
I fear for government bureaucrat's safety
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on March 30, 2005, 10:03 PM NHFT
(http://www.uhca.com/frustrated.jpg)
Is that a guy calling Microsoft tech support or a man filling out a 1040 form?
Quote from: russellkanning on March 31, 2005, 07:12 AM NHFT
Is that a guy calling Microsoft tech support or a man filling out a 1040 form?
That's me looking at the Absolutely Lying Dollar thread.
"Hey, will you take this?"
"Sure, it says $10 on it..."
"Great!" *he sneaks away slowly, looking over his shoulder as he walks away*
I had reservations about the ALD too, but ultimately decided that it was worth doing because:
1.) Some of the margin will eventually go toward efforts to return us to the gold standard
2.) A few of the people who come across them will look into it and become more educated about the Federal Reserve.
I believe few of those who get an ALD without a speech will feel scammed. In reality, I would guess that 9 times out of 10, we are actually selling novelties. People think they are nifty, and bring them home to sit in a drawer, or give them to the grandkids.
Quote from: hewhocannotbenamed on March 31, 2005, 01:01 PM NHFT
I had reservations about the ALD too, but ultimately decided that it was worth doing because:
1.) Some of the margin will eventually go toward efforts to return us to the gold standard
2.) A few of the people who come across them will look into it and become more educated about the Federal Reserve.
I believe few of those who get an ALD without a speech will feel scammed.? In reality, I would guess that 9 times out of 10, we are actually selling novelties.? People think they are nifty, and bring them home to sit in a drawer, or give them to the grandkids.
Translation:
1) The end justifies the means.
2) The end justifies the means.
3) People will think they're cool and never look into their true value, so they'll never know they were actually scammed.
Quote from: president on March 31, 2005, 03:37 PM NHFT
I think bartering is the only fair way to exchange things.
Let each person decide the value of what they are trading with/for.
It's also really hard to tax that type of transactions.
I like the way you think 8)
I like the idea of the alternate currencies where the two parties involved decide how much the labor or item is worth on a case by case basis. Kinda like ebay too.
Bartering... hmmm...
Quote from: president on March 31, 2005, 03:37 PM NHFT
I think bartering is the only fair way to exchange things.
Let each person decide the value of what they are trading with/for.
It's also really hard to tax that type of transactions.
Actually, no it's not hard to tax it. What is hard is to tax it at the incremental value.
Example: You and I trade a widget for a whatzit. The government comes in and says to you "You paid X dollars for the widget" and then turns around and says to me "you paid X dollars for the whatzit". Both sides then have to pay a 'sales tax'.
On the other hand, if I give you
currency for the widget, they only get to tax one side of the transaction.
Yes, the Liberty Dollar is not perfectly aligned with Austrian anarcho-capitalist thinking, but it is a lot closer than the FRN. Also, it educates people that see it, by it's mere existance.
If you don't like it, don't use it (at least you have that choice) or even better, compete with it. If your version is superior, you will win out in fair competition.
I like that the LD is labelled with a dollar value. It means it can actually be used
today, not just in some fantasy future.
The main problem I"m having with LD' is getting them , not spending them. I keep wanting to get the best rate, buy them from another porc, etc...so I only get maybe one chance a month to buy any. I can't wait to get more so I can spend more.
where do you do most of your "spending"?
Dada, in order to get the LD best rate, you need to become a rep. That way, you can get all of the LD's you need at the posted rate on the LD homepage.
Russell i haven't been able to spend very many yet since I've only had liberty dolllars once...I just keep seeing opportunities...mostly any time i give cash to free staters for soemthing. wal mart i haven't tried yet with the coins but i do understand they accept those. they did not accept the paper the one time i tried that however.
Does anyone here have a retail business that accepts Liberty Dollars? Bernard von Nothaus sent me a really nice mat for a commercial counter that says "We accept liberty dollars. Ask for your change in silver." The mat's yours if you will use it publically.
Quote from: katdillon on April 04, 2005, 08:59 AM NHFT
Does anyone here have a retail business that accepts Liberty Dollars?? Bernard von Nothaus sent me a really nice mat for a commercial counter that says "We accept liberty dollars.? Ask for your change in silver."? The mat's yours if you will use it publically.
Perhaps we can convince the lady that runs that citgo in peterborough on rt 101...?
JP
I thought that too! I'll ask next time I go through. Oh, I might be able to do that today.
You want a practical, honest alternative to Lying Dollars? Fine, here you go:
Silver Bullion
http://apmex.com/shop/shop_silver.asp?orderid=0
Gold Bullion
http://apmex.com/shop/shop_gold.asp?orderid=0
Buy the bullion, then go to www.Kitco.com once each day and write down the current value of it. Gold is currently at $424.20 per ounce. Silver is at 7.05 per ounce. Add a few percent to cover the premium on the coins. Preferably, use circulated silver rounds and gold krugerrands, which have a very low premium.
Here's where you can buy them in person with cash:
Seacoast Coin & Jewelry
725 Lafayette Road, Hampton, NH 03842
http://www.seacoastcoin.com/
There's probably another coin shop near Keene.
This is how real money has been used for thousands of years.
I don't see why the liberty dollar people shouldn't make money off their business. No one's forcing you to use them.
Quote from: katdillon on April 05, 2005, 09:19 AM NHFT
I don't see why the liberty dollar people shouldn't make money off their business.? No one's forcing you to use them.
They're not telling the truth about the value of the LDs.? If someone goes to cash an LD, they'll only get 70% of what they thought it was worth because it says a dollar amount on the coin.
It's that simple.? The LD is 30% fraud, no matter how you look at it.
-----
Constructive Fraud: conduct that is considered fraud despite the absence of an intent to deceive because it has the same consequences as an actual fraud.
Fraud in the Factum: fraud in which the deception causes the other party to misunderstand the nature of the transaction in which he or she is engaging especially with regard to the contents of an instrument (as a contract or promissory note). Also called "fraud in the execution".
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on April 05, 2005, 09:44 AM NHFT
They're not telling the truth about the value of the LDs. If someone goes to cash an LD, they'll only get 70% of what they thought it was worth because it says a dollar amount on the coin.
It's that simple. The LD is 30% fraud, no matter how you look at it.
I totally understand how you feel, LeRuineur6. I once felt that way as well, it took me a long time to come to understand the Liberty Dollar. I found that if someone goes to convert an LD to FRN, they are exchanged one-for-one by their local Regional Currency Office. Yes, that means the RCO is "losing" FRN when he performs the exchange, but that's part of his responsibility as an RCO.
We don't want anyone to feel "stuck" with Liberty Dollars. The purpose of course is to not exchange them, but to spend them. To circulate them. It's not intended as an investment, but a competing currency.
You are correct that using weighted unmarked silver rounds would be better, but if you think it's difficult to get people to accept Liberty Dollars (and it is), good luck with a currency without a "value" stamped on it.
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with profiting from the distribution of the Liberty Dollar. People need an incentive to get it out there. Plus, the banks profit BIG TIME off of f distributing the worthless FRNs. It's clear to me where the fraud is. It's called the Federal Reserve Note.
Ragging on the LD is akin to trying to poke holes in FedEx for competing with the post office! No one is stopping you from creating another competing currency! In fact, Bernard VonNothaus (Liberty Dollar founder) encourages more competition in currency.
Hey Kat? Gotta mat? Would love it!!! ;D
Cool, it's yours :) Would you and Lori like to meet us at Applebees in Keene, 6:30 tonight? We're having a mini porcu-gathering. If not, I'll get it to you some other time.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on April 05, 2005, 01:33 PM NHFT
I found that if someone goes to convert an LD to FRN, they are exchanged one-for-one by their local Regional Currency Office.? Yes, that means the RCO is "losing" FRN when he performs the exchange, but that's part of his responsibility as an RCO.
I've never heard about this before.? Are you absolutely positive about this?? If someone takes a "$10" LD to an RCO, they give the customer $10 US?? Are you sure? Nobody has ever said this to me before, even when confronted by my questions on this subject. This would effectively nullify my entire argument.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on April 05, 2005, 01:33 PM NHFT
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with profiting from the distribution of the Liberty Dollar.? People need an incentive to get it out there.? Plus, the banks profit BIG TIME off of f distributing the worthless FRNs.? It's clear to me where the fraud is.? It's called the Federal Reserve Note.
If they cannot get $10 out of a "$10" coin or piece of paper, then it's the same type of fraud as FRNs, but less extreme.? Let's not set our standards as being better than our government's standards.? ANYTHING is better than the government's practices of blatant monetary fraud.
However, if you can indeed redeem a "$10" LD for $10 US, then I'm fine with them.
Can't fnd this on their website.
Yes, it's true. The RCO will exchange a $10FRN for a $10LD. They really lose nothing inthe long run, due to the discount they have with the LD. And folks, we are in this for the long run. Mike, I know it seems like a ripoff, when all the facts aren't in front of you. But it IS a much better alternative than the FRN. It keeps government OUT...and puts the people back in. Of course, there is always room for other forms of exchange as well. You had mentioned Ralph Borsodi. There are many other ways to create economic strength, even within this forum. Be creative...
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on April 05, 2005, 11:21 PM NHFT
Quote from: FTL_Ian on April 05, 2005, 01:33 PM NHFT
I found that if someone goes to convert an LD to FRN, they are exchanged one-for-one by their local Regional Currency Office.? Yes, that means the RCO is "losing" FRN when he performs the exchange, but that's part of his responsibility as an RCO.
I've never heard about this before.? Are you absolutely positive about this?? If someone takes a "$10" LD to an RCO, they give the customer $10 US?? Are you sure?? Nobody has ever said this to me before, even when confronted by my questions on this subject.? This would effectively nullify my entire argument.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on April 05, 2005, 01:33 PM NHFT
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with profiting from the distribution of the Liberty Dollar.? People need an incentive to get it out there.? Plus, the banks profit BIG TIME off of f distributing the worthless FRNs.? It's clear to me where the fraud is.? It's called the Federal Reserve Note.
If they cannot get $10 out of a "$10" coin or piece of paper, then it's the same type of fraud as FRNs, but less extreme.? Let's not set our standards as being better than our government's standards.? ANYTHING is better than the government's practices of blatant monetary fraud.
However, if you can indeed redeem a "$10" LD for $10 US, then I'm fine with them.
Scott's right, RCO's have to give $10FRN for every $10LD. "$ for $" as they say.
Scott, Lori and I have been looking into this for quite sometime now.
JP
P.S. If you need more info, call Kamal Jain in Lowell, MA. He the the RCO for Northeastern, MA. Closest one to us, I believe.
Hopefully this month, Lori & I will become Liberty Dollar associates, so as to supply any and all who want the Liberty Dollar. We've gotten inquiries from a number of Free Staters about the LD. So, it's business as usual...
RCOs give you a $10frn for your $10LD silver piece?......now that is a ripoff.......getting paper for a perfectly good piece of silver ;)
You should not be as concerned with the positive effects of the LD as much as the possible negative effects.? That said, I've found something about this.
Quote
6. RCOs convert ALD to FRN at face value for "contracted merchants" only within their region. RCOs may provide convertibility to anyone else.
2. RCO Code of Ethics
b. RCO shall convert Liberty Dollars to FRNs at full face value for any Contracted Merchant within his region.
An RCO is not required to convert Liberty Dollars to FRNs unless the person is a Contracted Merchant with that RCO.
My only problem with the LD now is this:
How can an RCO NOT lose money doing this?? They give out LDs for less than $10, then they exchange them for $10?
For example:? Let's say an RCO gives you an LD for $8.? You go to the store and use it for "$10".? The store comes back to the RCO to exchange it for $10 US.? The RCO loses $2.
The only way an RCO could make money on this would be if people did not try to redeem their LDs.? If people did, the RDs could not survive.? This is why RCOs are NOT required to convert LDs to FRNs.? They would go bankrupt if the LD became too popular and LD to FRN conversion was mandatory.
This is my favorite quote from the LD website:? (http://www.libertydollar.org/html/silvertwice.asp)
"Exchanging $10.00 for a Silver Certificate when silver spot is $5.00 per ounce is very reasonable given the costs involved and they are much better than those dreaded Federal Reserve Note."HOW can you trust them when they say something like this?? HOW???
I may be alone in my opposition to the LD. That is fine. I know it is wrong.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on April 06, 2005, 09:59 AM NHFT
6. RCOs convert ALD to FRN at face value for "contracted merchants" only within their region. RCOs may provide convertibility to anyone else.
2. RCO Code of Ethics
b. RCO shall convert Liberty Dollars to FRNs at full face value for any Contracted Merchant within his region.
An RCO is not required to convert Liberty Dollars to FRNs unless the person is a Contracted Merchant with that RCO.
The impression I've gotten from associates is that they are trying to make a difference, not defraud people. Most regular associates offer to exchange FRNs for LDs, specifically to the person they have paid LDs to.
QuoteHow can an RCO NOT lose money doing this? They give out LDs for less than $10, then they exchange them for $10?
For example: Let's say an RCO gives you an LD for $8. You go to the store and use it for "$10". The store comes back to the RCO to exchange it for $10 US. The RCO loses $2.
Yes, the RCO would "lose" $2. However, this is apparantly an unusual occurance. The intention is to sell the merchant on accepting and giving out the LD as change. This allows the merchant to profit when he gives change, and proliferates the LD.
QuoteThe only way an RCO could make money on this would be if people did not try to redeem their LDs. If people did, the RDs could not survive.
Exactly. We want people to spend their LDs, not redeem them. Clearly if people don't see the value in the LD, they will redeem them. We're hoping they see the value. If they don't this country is fucked monitarily.
QuoteThis is why RCOs are NOT required to convert LDs to FRNs. They would go bankrupt if the LD became too popular and LD to FRN conversion was mandatory.
If the LD becomes "too popular", it's BECAUSE people are circulating them, and NOT converting them back.
QuoteThis is my favorite quote from the LD website: (http://www.libertydollar.org/html/silvertwice.asp)
"Exchanging $10.00 for a Silver Certificate when silver spot is $5.00 per ounce is very reasonable given the costs involved and they are much better than those dreaded Federal Reserve Note."
HOW can you trust them when they say something like this? HOW???
Because silver has value, and FRNs are crap.
QuoteI may be alone in my opposition to the LD. That is fine. I know it is wrong.
It took me a while to come around to it myself. What finally convinced me to join was when Von NotHaus endorsed the FSP. He's a member, I've spoken with him by phone. The Liberty Dollar isn't perfect, but it's worlds better than the FRN.
Regards,
Ian
I am with you Mike.....I don't think Redemption Centers have to give you $10 for each silver piece....
But I still like them :D
Guys I have a suggestion: Those of you who have liberty dollars for sale , please bring them to every freedom-lover event and social you attend! That way we can buy them from you! and don't be shy about letting us know you've got em for sale when you see us. I just got done spending 2 hours with Jim and forgot to ask him if he had any LD's with him for sale!
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 06, 2005, 05:40 PM NHFT
Guys I have a suggestion: Those of you who have liberty dollars for sale , please bring them to every freedom-lover event and social you attend! That way we can buy them from you! and don't be shy about letting us know you've got em for sale when you see us. I just got done spending 2 hours with Jim and forgot to ask him if he had any LD's with him for sale!
I always do this. The people at work have almost all held them in their hands as well.
BTW, AFAIK RCOs are NOT required to exchange $10FRN for $10ALD to just anyone. They have to for Merchants who have signed up, but a regular Joe might not. (Some RCOs DO exchange face for face, because they believe in it so strongly, but they are not required) The deal for merchants is an incentive thing. The merchant gets a discount on their purchase from the RCO, and gets a guarantee of face when exchanging it back. I guess that the RCO doesn't go broke from arbitrage because they sell more than they exchange back to FRNs.
In researching the RCO stuff, in the RCO Handbook that a friend of mine has, I found that RCO are supposed to exchange $ for $ ALD/FRN. If they aren't, it is my belief they are doing so against their contract.
Folks, it may not be a perfect system, but it's a great place to start. Mike, do you have any interest in pursuing something like Ralph Borsodi did? I would love to work with you on it. 8)
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on January 20, 2005, 11:18 AM NHFT
I love Google. ;)
http://www.motherearthnews.com/menarch/archive/issues/027/027-082-01.htm
http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/swann_robert_on_borsodi_and_money.html
http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/swann24.html
hey Mike...don't forget to give credit where credit is due!
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on March 29, 2005, 05:05 PM NHFT
I've been wanting to do this for a long time, but I have far too many responsibilties right now, and joining this effort would only dilute my highly-diluted efforts. ;)
You can base a currency on labor like the Ithaca Hours, or on a mix of commodities like the Borsodi Constants, or you can just try to start using real gold and silver bullion as currency.
I haven't tried it yet on others, but I will accept silver and gold, at current market values, as payment for any debt that is owed to me.
or land as Borsodi was the foremost authority on Land Trusts as well as being a Georgist...
Just got a copy of "Inflation and The Coming Keynesian Catastrophe" by Ralph Borsodi, in which he talks about the story of the Exeter experiments with Constants. Great reading, folks. Everyone that is interested in alternative currencies should get a copy. As I have said before, the LD is not a perfect system, but it far better than the FRN system we have now. The LD is at least worth its weight in silver, where the FRN isn't even worth the paper it's printed on. And while the LD system has some aspects that could be improved upon, it picks up where our government left off...and it's not controlled by the government. So, one more for the people! So, we can all sit on our asses and argue and debate, or we can get out there and make a difference. Whatever...
Quote from: Scott Roth on May 08, 2005, 06:15 PM NHFT
Just got a copy of "Inflation and The Coming Keynesian Catastrophe" by Ralph Borsodi, in which he talks about the story of the Exeter experiments with Constants.? Great reading, folks.? Everyone that is interested in alternative currencies should get a copy.? As I have said before, the LD is not a perfect system, but it far better than the FRN system we have now.? The LD is at least worth its weight in silver, where the FRN isn't even worth the paper it's printed on.? And while the LD system has some aspects that could be improved upon, it picks up where our government left off...and it's not controlled by the government.? So, one more for the people!? So, we can all sit on our asses and argue and debate, or we can get out there and make a difference.? Whatever...
where did you get a copy - new or used?
I got my copy online from the E.F. Schumacher Society.
Quote from: Scott Roth on May 09, 2005, 04:37 PM NHFT
I got my copy online from the E.F. Schumacher Society.?
make sense...
LeRuineur6 is correct. The problem is not that Liberty dollars cost more to buy than the silver they are worth, but that when you attempt to buy things with it you claim that it is worth more than its value. Let me give an example:
1) I pay US $10 for a 1 ounce Liberty Dollar coin.
2) Due to the current exchange rate, the Liberty Dollar coin has a redeemable value of $7.11
3) If I now go to a merchant and attempt to purchase goods priced at more than $7.11 with a coin redeemable for one ounce of silver, I am essentially defrauding the merchant.
I have no problem with anyone here choosing to pay US $2.89 for the convenience of converting their unbacked US currency into a secure, easily tradeable form with precious metals backing. As others have suggested, the price of buying a Liberty Dollar may well be worth the cost difference. However, it is fraud to tell a merchant that your one ounce silver certificate is worth $10 just because that is what you paid for it.
By using Liberty dollars as equivelent to US dollars, you do not educate anyone. In fact, the Liberty Dollar website specifically recommends that you do not educate people when you attempt to use the Liberty Dollar, but rather to trust to their ignorance to cause them to accept your currency. When I travel internationally, I never expect people to exchange my currency on a one-to-one basis without question. Expecting US merchants to do so is taking advantage of their ignorance. Being dishonest in your trades is not the way to teach people to use a backed currency.
There's no dishonesty involved. Silver has real value, FRNs do not. $1000 in FRNs isn't worth what a $10 Silver Liberty is, in terms of backing.
Also, when I offer a Silver Liberty to a merchant, I ALWAYS leave my business card, and tell them if there's a problem to call me and I'll come buy it back. I also make it clear that their Bank will likely not take it.
The only "value" anything has is what another person is willing to trade for it.
I have traded FRN's in about about 40 states and 7 countries with out any problem. In fact folks in other countries were thrilled to get dollars.
Now if your gonna argue and talk about money colapses fine, but in those situations, I think bullets, booze and cigerettes will be worth more than liberty dollars.
Quote from: Pat K on May 11, 2005, 05:10 PM NHFT
Now if your gonna argue and talk about money colapses fine, but in those situations, I think bullets, booze and cigerettes will be worth more than liberty dollars.
Only time will tell, I suppose. Though those items tend to be valuable when easier to exchange items like silver, gold, and notes are scarce. (Like Jail. Yes, I know there are FRNs in jail, but certainly not in copious supply.)
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 11, 2005, 09:18 AM NHFT
There's no dishonesty involved. Silver has real value, FRNs do not. $1000 in FRNs isn't worth what a $10 Silver Liberty is, in terms of backing.
As Pat implied, there is nothing inherently "valuable" about silver. Backing a currency with a precious metal prevents the backer from simply printing more money, which is a good thing, but it still does not really give the currency any true inherent value.
http://www.libertydollar.org/html/profit.asp
Quote from: LibertyDollar.orgThe $1 Silver Certificate is not only our most popular item; it also loses money. We exchange it for $0.90, and it costs us $1.09 to produce.
http://www.libertydollar.org/html/spendit.asp
Quote from: LibertyDollar.org1. Please don't attempt to educate people about money when using Liberty Dollars.
2. Although prudence would seem to indicate that people would refuse a currency they've never seen, this is simply not the case. After thousands of transactions, the Liberty Dollar is readily accepted most of the time. It is meant to be SPENT!
....
5. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TEN DOLLARS. If you are asked anything, just keep your answers short. Remember to KISS - Keep it Short and Simple.
6. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver, 10 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.
So they are issuing a currency redeemable for less than a US dollar's worth of silver, that they distribute for $0.90, and then instructing people to act like it is worth $1 when they take it to the store. They
instruct that you should not try to educate, but rather just trust to the lack of education of the cashier to accept the unrecognized currency.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on May 11, 2005, 09:18 AM NHFTAlso, when I offer a Silver Liberty to a merchant, I ALWAYS leave my business card, and tell them if there's a problem to call me and I'll come buy it back. I also make it clear that their Bank will likely not take it.
Then you are likely being more honest in your dealings than the official instructions on the Liberty Dollar website. I don't have a problem as such with a partially backed currency, my problem is in the clearly dishonest procedure they instruct people to use with that currency.
They ought to just sell the currency at a higher rate to cover their costs, and make sure that it is redeemable for an equivelent value to its face value so that people have an easy out if they lose confidence in the currency. Normally when you switch from one currency to another, you pay a premium for that service. In this case since you are paying for a newly minted currency, you would expect to pay a higher premium. Rather than charging $0.90 for a coin that is worth $0.75 and instructing people to pretend it is worth $1.00, they should charge $1.25 for a coin that is worth $1.00 and tell people to act like it is worth $1.00. That is the honest way to change currencies.
I was hesitant about the LD as well. I heard about it a long long long time ago, read a bit about it, and never went back to it. While reading about taxation and the FED and all of that, I began thinking of real currency again. The LD popped back into mind, and I looked into it deeper.
The only problem I see with it, is that the maker wanted to raise it to "Base $20" when silver reached and stayed at $7.50. This seems a bit steep to me. I'm not sure how he justifies that one. Why not at least wait until it reaches $15.00 for base $20. Oh well -- small problem.
The bottom line -- it's backed by SOMETHING. It's not backed by debt, it doesn't increase the national debt and your taxes, and it doesn't contribute to inflation. It also helps to educate people, and get people used to the idea of BACKED money once again. I mean come on, guys, some people think our money is backed by gold in Fort Knox!
So I say we start somewhere. We can't demand 100% perfection right off the bat. Let's start with something that will actually circulate with the masses. I think the Liberty Dollars are that. So start getting them in circulation -- I want to be able to receive and spend them when I get to NH :P
I'm a gun rights guy, and I live in Illinois. I've learned that in order to return things to how they should be (and get back what you've lost), you need to take it back the same way you lost it -- little by little, piece by piece. A gun bill for Vermont-style concealed carry in Illinois won't get very far, but perhaps a gun law preemption bill or a law enforcement/judge/etc carry bill might. It sucks that this is how things work, but you have to deal with it!
Bottom line is using Liberty Dollars is 1000 times better than using FRN. Think about that the next time you pull one out of your wallet. It's easy to criticize something for not being perfect, but how hypocritical it is to use something even less perfect! I'm not a Christian or a Bible thumper in any way, but the kind of talk in here knocking LD (I'm guessing by people who use FRN) is like the guy talking about the spec of sawdust in his brother's eye when he's got a fucking 2x4 in his own :)
P.S -- I deserve positive karma for the resurrection of this thread ;)
How are LD doing in NH at this time?
I suppose the way I have always looked at the Liberty Dollar is that it's not proper to compare it with any other piece if silver of equivalent mass. The fact that it has been minted into a coin by a large organization backing its legitimacy as a currency is what gives it the value in excess of what it's worth if melted into a blob of silver.
Most sheeple are total morons and can't figure out sales tax let alone assess the value of silver bullion. The minting of silver into beautiful coins that are readily identified, non-trivially counterfeited (who cares, as long as they're silver!), readily accepted by people as currency, and intrinsically backed by it's 3-nines silver content is what makes it worth "a dollar."
How much is a screwdriver worth? How much is it worth after I break or bend it? It's certainly worth more as a screwdriver than the bulk commodity iron and plastic that it's fabricated from. So is everything else that is manufactured. That's what gives it value. That's how value is created! By some people's reasoning, books should only be worth what the paper and ink cost, and automobiles should be priced like scrap metal. Ludicrous!
I don't see why that's so hard to understand, and therefore wonder why some people are trying to portray the manufactured Liberty Dollar as a "scam" because it's worth more than any old unrecognizable blob of metallic silver. It's worth it to a merchant to have an instrument of value that is easily used and exchanged, is inherently valuable, and whose need to be analyzed for silver content is low due to the difficulty involved in counterfeiting such coins.
I think it's a great idea, though I'm certainly willing to listen to reasonable arguments. Unless someone can objectively show me why it's a bad idea, I'd like to start converting every single FRN I get paid into LD's so that we can move toward purging FRN's from NH. Let the other States live like slaves to the FedGov.
Quote from: SAK on February 11, 2007, 10:04 PM NHFT
How are LD doing in NH at this time?
LD will be at the Liberty Forum.... 10 days from now!
Hi Bill!
If you stamped an eagle into your screwdriver how much more would it be worth? ;D
The LD has intrinsic value and relative scarcity, especially the issue marked $10.00 and the early $5.00 coin.
I've got a one-ounce silver round which the NORFED people marked with "$10" in the closet, along with some warehouse receipts I haven't yet sent in for replacement since they switched to the $20 silver base. I had quite a few more last year, but I :shock: spent them!! I imagine their current owners are quite happy I did.
Hey there Lloyd,
I suppose the eagle-stamped screwdriver might fetch a higher price if such a thing were desirable. How much more do clothing items which bear company logos such as Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger go for?
The point is that images stamped onto a screwdriver don't make the screwdriver any more suited to driving or removing screws, however the images stamped onto the coin make the coin more suitable as an instrument of exchange due to the identification as a LD and the difficulty in counterfeiting.
I'm don't understand the legitimacy of the presto-change-o $10 to $20 base, but I can't really say that I've yet made any concerted effort to.
No Klein or Hilfinger in my wardrobe, although, interestingly enough, some of my screwdrivers are stamped 'Klein'
If anyone is interested, I have a few of the new State $20 Silver Liberties. Most were issued in lots of as little as 250 units. There are also Central American LDs now. It's now an international currency! If you want one, let me know and I'll see if I can acquire some for you. I'm saving at least one of all the ones I can find, but I will offer any extras to loving owner-spenders. You all haven't touched on the collector aspect of the ALD very much in this thread... 8-)
I am a Liberty Associate.
I hear this from time to time about the ALD that its a rip off and its a scam and its immoral and the list goes on and on. I disagree and shortly I will give some examples for you to think about. All in all anything is better then the FRN, even sand is better, at least there is only a finite amount of sand, such is not true of the FRN. No system is perfect, however every deal is a win-win deal, if it weren't then we wouldn't have a deal.
Let me describe to you what it says on the 20 American Liberty Dollar: 'American Liberty Dollar. $20 Silver Certificate. This is a Receipt for twenty ($20.00) US Dollars given in exchange for the Title to one (1) Troy ounce of .999 fine silver. The acceptance and use of this Twenty ($20.00) Liberty Dollar Receipt is an exercise of this bearer's first Amendment right to petition the govenment for a silver backed currecny as mandated by the U.S. Constitution.' At the top of the Certficate it says in bold letters 'NEGOTIABLE'. At the bottom of the Certificate it says 'Redeemable by bearer on demand' Also it gives the phone number and website of the Liberty Dollar Org. The lower left it says '$X Silver base'(mines a $20). On the back at the top it says '$20 Liberty Dollar $20'. In the center it says, 'Warehouse Receipt. Terms: This warehouse receipt for one (1) troy ounce of .999 fine silver stored at the warehouse identifed below shall expire unless renewed or surrendered within twenty (20) years from date of issue. The undersigned warehouse official certifies that this silver is insured against fire and theft. Storage and insurance fees have been prepaid for five (5) years from date of issue. Thereafter, storage and insurance fees are one percent (%1) per year of the calue of silver prorated at the time of surrender. Additional fees limited to shipping and handling may be incurred upon surrender of this warehouse receipt.' Then it shows a date of issue with the signature of a warehouse official. It also states the warehouse where it is stored. At the bottom it says in bold letters 'NEGOTIABLE' and to the left it says, 'One ounce silver 999 fine'.
Pull out that FRN and look for any garentee like that whatsoever. You won't find it. Look at your bullion and other coins, you won't find that garentee anywhere either. By the way, the warehouse in question is not owned by the Liberty Dollar Org. It is a private company that does month audits without any interference from Liberty Dollar Org.
Now for the long awaited examples. Today's silver spot price is $12.87. My Associate Rate USD to ALD is $.89. I buy twenty two 20 Liberty Dollars from Liberty Dollar.org, at $17.83 plus $3.50 shipping and handling. Okay, my total cost is $397.96 FRN. The difference between face value and my cost on this purchase is $42.04.
Okay, I go down to your business and gather together $20 FRN worth of stuff and then present you with the 20 Liberty Dollar. You ask me what it is, I tell you its a 20 Dollar Liberty Silver Certificate. You ask me what that is, I tell you its a title of ownership to one ounce of .999 fine silver. You look at me funny so I then pull out a 20 Dollar FRN and say, I have this $20 FRN but I would rather pay you in silver. So you accept the 20 Liberty Dollar and I go away with my purchases. Then another customer comes and and gets $20 FRN worth of stuff and offers you a $50 FRN, you accept it and offer them my 20 Liberty Dollar, telling them exactly what I told you, as part of their change. They accept and go on their way. Did anyone lie, cheat, or steal from anyone? No, you told me my total is $20 dollars. I offered you a receipt for 1 ounce of silver and we agreed that it was worth $20 FRN. You offered to someone else and got back exactly the same amount of value as you traded with me from someone else. You accepted my Liberty Dollar in exchange for your product. The customer accepted the 20 Liberty Dollar for change. You do it every day with the FRN, except in this case my 20 Liberty Dollar is worth 1 ounce of silver, whereas the FRN is worthless. I ask you who is the cheater, liar, or thief?
Same example, a little different. When I present you the 20 Liberty Dollar, you ask what is it worth. I tell you I paid $17.90 FRN for it, and its suggested value is $20 FRN. You then say, that will accept it for $17.90 for it. I agree its worth that much and then offer you the remaining $2.10 FRN to cover the remainder. I then take my stuff and leave. Later, the next customer comes in and you complete the transaction again as before. Did anyone cheat, lie, or steal from anyone? Again the answer is no. Did make money on the transaction, yes. Is that wrong or dishonest? No, the Federal government and banks do it all the time, and you don't complain much, except what they give you is worthless, and you gave something away that is worth something. If you don't question what you are given you are accepting that what you are given is worth what you think it is worth, even if later you find out its worth nothing. I mean we all did that till the day we found out that the FRN was worthless.
Lets say you couldn't get anyone to take the 20 Liberty Dollar, you call me up and say you want to give it back. I tell you the spot price of silver is at $14.94 and my FRN to ALD rate is $.94. I offer you $18.96(remember my shipping and handling costs) FRN for the 20 Liberty Dollar. You get angry and start yelling at me that I am ripping you off because we agreed it was worth $17.90 not just two days ago. I say, fine, then I offer you $20 FRN for your 20 ALD. You accept and appoligize for the outburst. I tell you thats okay and offer to take any other ALD off your hands. Now don't you feel like an ass? You'll prolly call me back again the next time you can't get rid of an ALD. Now who is lied, cheated, or a thief? Again, no one. Why would I offer you a premimum amount for the ALD? Easy, I will break even when I take your 20 ALD and exchange it with someone else, add to that the fact that I get all my ALD at a discount so I have a little bit of profit I can give away. Beyond the money angle, what about your acceptance of the ALD? You are more likely to accept it from anyone knowing that I will exchange it for you and that I am apparently a reasonable person.
Okay, so what if the value of tea(or silver or gold or whatever) is $12.87. Does it really matter what the spot price of silver is if you can exchange one item of value for an equal amount of currency? Let me ask you something else. Is the value of something defined by the market or is it instead defined by how much something is worth to the buyer/seller? The market is a guideline, it isn't law. A car isn't worth more or less because someone says it is, it still gets you from point A to point B.
Ultimately a silver based currency is better then one that isn't. And its up to -you- to accept or decline the ALD. However if you are business, and you don't accept my ALD, and the guy across the street has a similar item, even if it is slightly more, and he accepts ALD, I'm taking my business over to him. I think most people will once they are educated about the worthlessness of the FRN and the value of the ALD. Perhaps someday the ALD will replace the FRN as the currency of choice, and if you get on the bandwagon now, you'll make more money doing it now, then you will later.
Blessings to you all and live free or die.
I think most of you are missing a big flaw in Liberty dollars.
A Liberty Dollar would be considered = Good Money
While a FRN would be considered = Bad Money
When good money is introduced into a system where bad money is still in exchange, and widely accepted (such as the 2000 1$ coin) what happens is when you have 100$ of Good and also 100$ of bad money, you will tend to only spend the bad money, and save the good money. What happens is all the 'good money' remains in all the peoples homes while the 'bad money' is still being circulated.
It would be fun to get people involved, but honestly you could never use liberty dollars as money untill FRN are not accepted anymore
Bad money drives out good. That's an economic principle that somebody put forth, whose name I forget at present.
But that's okay. When the shit hits the fan people will remember they've got good money sitting in the back of their dresser drawers.
The interview on sovereign solution with Nothaus really explained everything I needed to know about the currency and specially what more it is than a gold depot and why the value isn't on a 1:1 basis of value.
And after that I think liberty dollar is indeed good. I am all upity about the potentially being able to use it.
one argument ive heared before was why would he sell gold for FRN,
The only explanaition is that he cant pay debts in gold and silver. But still hes taking bad money in exchange for good money.
He doesnt seem like a buisiness man doing it for just the money though, I think he just wants to put another option out there.
Quote from: PinoX7 on May 15, 2007, 07:57 PM NHFT
I think most of you are missing a big flaw in Liberty dollars.
A Liberty Dollar would be considered = Good Money
While a FRN would be considered = Bad Money
When good money is introduced into a system where bad money is still in exchange, and widely accepted (such as the 2000 1$ coin) what happens is when you have 100$ of Good and also 100$ of bad money, you will tend to only spend the bad money, and save the good money. What happens is all the 'good money' remains in all the peoples homes while the 'bad money' is still being circulated.
It would be fun to get people involved, but honestly you could never use liberty dollars as money until FRN are not accepted anymore
I disagree with your assumption. I attempt to use my Liberties every chance I get. I have a few that take it without any question, because when I run out, I come back to them and buy them back. Shipping charges are a pain in the ass in Alaska. Course, not everyone I deal with will let me buy them back at face value, most want to charge more so I don't buy them back.
People don't understand money. They need to be educated and I do that every time I use my Liberties because without exception every time I do, I find at least one person who has interest in it.
Further I have spoken with 4 merchants who love the idea and agreed to accept them. They are not yet willing to sign on to use them in their business, however they have taken the first step. I'm working to educate other businesses in the use of local currency.
I continue to talk to people and to other businesses and most, if not all, agree that they like the Liberty. I'm working on creating a cooperative in my area using the Liberty as the local currency however it expensive to create the materials needed so I only convert those who I can afford to.
If you like the Liberty, then get off your ass and do something about it. Everything you need is on the Liberty web site. Take that same initiative that you use to protest and use it to educate people. Don't be forceful, just be polite and honest. If you are it will show and help people understand the problem with the 'bad' money.
As for your reasoning for why he would sell gold or silver for FRN, you are right in that you can't pay government debts with gold or silver because the governments won't take it.
People can't seem to break away from the idea that gold, silver, or FRN are anything but commodities. Each has its worth, and its worth is not what the issuers say it is, but what the market says they are. People who point out that the Liberty isn't worth the silver and gold they are based on fail to realize they are talking about two different commodities. Silver and gold as offered by the market are based on ounces on a 5000 ounce brick, not some coin minted from some company, public or private. So to say that this 1 oz coin is worth the same price that 1 oz is on the market is simple theft.
If you had a 5000 oz brick, there are costs associated with taking that oz out of that brick, pouring it to a mold, taking it out of mold, striking it, and then shining it so it looks all pretty and stuff. So no one can say that they 1 oz coin in their pocket is the same as the 1 oz being offered at the market.
The Liberty Dollar shows that there are costs within manufacturing a coin, or a certificate and take that into account when they issue it. Thats why they issue it above the 'market spot price for silver in 5000 oz bricks' because it costs money along the way from the market to the final product.
The Liberty is no different then the silver or gold on the market or the FRN in that they are products. Each has costs associated with it to make each of them. It costs about 5 cents to make every FRN but they sell well above their cost and you don't complain. You don't do anything to change the system. The various coins you buy aren't sold at market price either, they are sold near market price, like the Liberty is, minus the costs of the various steps in production.
As for Von NotHaus, he isn't doing it for the money, he truly wants to change the system for the better, to get rid of the illegal money in circulation and replace it with good legal money. But like any product it needs marketing, and education to understand what it is. Is it perfect? No, but it is better then the alternative.
By the way, anyone interested in learning how or what I do to when I talk to people can hit my up on my IM or email.
SAK (Shaun) posted on the makethestand.com forum that he was arrested on Sunday when he tried to use a Liberty Dollar. He was supposed to go to court today. Has anyone heard anything?
Quote from: cyberdoo78 on May 16, 2007, 09:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: PinoX7 on May 15, 2007, 07:57 PM NHFT
I think most of you are missing a big flaw in Liberty dollars.
A Liberty Dollar would be considered = Good Money
While a FRN would be considered = Bad Money
When good money is introduced into a system where bad money is still in exchange, and widely accepted (such as the 2000 1$ coin) what happens is when you have 100$ of Good and also 100$ of bad money, you will tend to only spend the bad money, and save the good money. What happens is all the 'good money' remains in all the peoples homes while the 'bad money' is still being circulated.
It would be fun to get people involved, but honestly you could never use liberty dollars as money until FRN are not accepted anymore
I disagree with your assumption. I attempt to use my Liberties every chance I get. I have a few that take it without any question, because when I run out, I come back to them and buy them back. Shipping charges are a pain in the ass in Alaska. Course, not everyone I deal with will let me buy them back at face value, most want to charge more so I don't buy them back.
Thats exactly the point i was trying to make, They KEEP the real money, and they dont want your FRN for good money. So they keep it, in their homes, pockets, or whereever, but they would just as soon hold on to it because it has value.
Ya, you could get arrested for using it, but then again you could get arrested for just about anything today.
I see your point, but a majority of people I deal with trade it, they don't keep it. Its a currency, and not a collectible.
yeah, never said it was a bad idea,
just has some flaws, its a good educational tool though, cause people will want to get involved
That can be said of just about anything, money or not.
I think Anarchy would be a better form of government, the flaw is that people don't know what it is. I think Ron Paul would make a great president, the media either doesn't talk about him, or when they do, the ridicule him without giving him the benefit of the doubt like all the other candidates. All flaws.
I think no other form of currency has the following attributes that the Liberty does. Convenience in trade, it has a value stamped on it that both parties can agree on or negotiate on. Convenience in carrying, in either its paper form or its digital form, you can carry a couple hundred with you if you wanted to. Convertibility, it can quickly be interchanged with the world standard, the US Dollar, either at face value or some other value to be agreed on. It has intrinsic value, it is made of trip 9 fine silver and will never be worth 0 as 5000 years of history has shown.
I can not think of any other currency out there with such flexibility as the Liberty.
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Hmmm ... it seems that a state can make gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts. But it cannot coin money. I'm not well enough versed in the terminology to grok exactly what this implies.
Quote from: cxxguy on June 13, 2007, 07:31 PM NHFT
Hmmm ... it seems that a state can make gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts. But it cannot coin money. I'm not well enough versed in the terminology to grok exactly what this implies.
They can't coin the money. They also can't require that you pay your debts in wampum, beads, chickens, or diamonds.
Kevin
Or goddamned pieces of paper.
See, I read that differently. It says that the State cannot allow ANYTHING to pass as legal tender that isn't gold and silver coin.
In other words, doesn't the state have a constitutional obligation to oppose frn's, since they aren't gold and silver coin?
It's the feds that force the states to accept other than gold and silver as legal tender.
But constitutionally, the states aren't allowed to let that happen.
The whole thing is a clusterfuck and should be scrapped.
The Constitution? Or the Liberty dollar? ;) Either way I agree with you.
Quote from: Caleb on June 13, 2007, 10:43 PM NHFT
The Constitution? Or the Liberty dollar? ;) Either way I agree with you.
The Constitution. I like silver.
Constitutionally, the states aren't allowed to require that debts be tendered in pieces of paper. But, they may allow debts to be paid in wampum, chickens, or FRNs.
Quote from: cxxguy on June 13, 2007, 07:31 PM NHFT
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Hmmm ... it seems that a state can make gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts. But it cannot coin money. I'm not well enough versed in the terminology to grok exactly what this implies.
In Article 1 Section 10 of the Constitution (stated above), the term "coin" (with a small c) is not the same as the term "Coin" (with a capital C). The first term "coin" (with the small c) is a verb, which means "to make, create or fabricate something (not necessarily money, even though that's what the Constitution is referring to); where as the second term "Coin" (with the capital C) is a noun specifically meaning "a round piece of metal issued by a government to be used as money". Case in point regarding the first "coin" definition, anyone who has ever played Trivial Pursuit will remember sometimes drawing a card that asks the question "Who was the person that
coined the phrase......?". So as you can see, the two terms used in this Section are not the same. Now, it is my belief that the Founding Fathers put this clause into the Constitution to restrict the States from making their own money as they did prior to the Constitution. During the first 10-12 years of our country, the Supreme Law of the Land was known as the Articles of Confederation. And during that time, each state printed their own money called Colonial Script, which was made out of thin air and backed by nothing. Now because there were no restrictions or accountability on how much they could create, they went hog-wilded and kept making more and more and more....until the money became completely worthless and the economy crumbled (much like the FRN (we use to today) are doing to our economy). So the Founding Fathers decided to add this clause to establish a more controlled, honest, morale and valuable form of currency that would provide us with a more stable and prosperous life. So the Constitution prevents the States from "
coining
Money (round pieces of metal specific to their state only)
; emit (or issue)
Bills of Credit (fiat paper money similar to the Colonial Script)
; or make any Thing (generic metal, wood, etc.)
but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; that would cause a repeat of our past economic failure. So where did we go wrong?
I believe I mentioned this elsewhere, but a bit of trivia:
The original Wizard of Oz children's book is widely believed to be a political allegory relating to currency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_interpretations_of_The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz
QuoteThe book opens not in an imaginary place but in real life Kansas, which in the 1890s was well-known for the hardships of rural life, and for destructive tornadoes. The Panic of 1893 caused widespread distress in rural America. Dorothy is swept away to a colorful land of unlimited resources that nevertheless has serious political problems.[1] This utopia is ruled in part by people designated as wicked. Dorothy and her cyclone kill the Wicked Witch of the East. The Witch had previously controlled the all-powerful silver slippers (which were changed to ruby in the 1939 film). The Wicked Witch of the West tries to seize the silver slippers, but cannot because they are already on Dorothy's feet. The slippers will in the end liberate Dorothy but first she must walk in them down the golden yellow brick road, i.e. she must take silver down the path of gold, the path of free coinage. Following the road of gold leads eventually only to the Emerald City, which may symbolize the fraudulent world of greenback paper money that only pretends to have value, or may symbolize the greenback value that is placed on gold (and for silver, possibly).
The ability of humans to see patterns, whether they are present or not, never ceases to amaze me.
Quote from: zaphar on September 01, 2007, 06:27 PM NHFT
Do you think it would be a good idea to leave a portion of tips in ALDs? Since, technically, you don't have to leave a tip, couldn't you use them in that case?
Huh, very interesting point. In fact, I may start doing that with silver rounds in general, but it would likely be very wise to leave a little note attached explicitly stating that the funny coin is silver and what it is approximately worth, based on a recent spot quote. For that matter, including a website address and/or a brief rundown of why fiat currency is bad might be informative, too.
*goes off to check bank balance and spot prices*
I've been doing that already, leaving a portion of tips in ALDs. Done it several times at Applebees in Hooksett, NH, several restaurants in North Conway including an Applebees and Friendly's when I was on vacation up there, even at many Dunkin Donuts locations throughout NH. The one question I have is "What are these people doing with the ALDs once they get them?" Do they investigate them? Do they set them aside? Do they throw them away thinking they are a joke? I would like to know.
I think what we need is a small card to go with the tips with a very short explanation and a URL for more info.
Also, the 1$ Copper Liberties might be good to use as partial tips.
Quote from: Paul Comeau Jr on September 04, 2007, 08:57 PM NHFT
I've been doing that already, leaving a portion of tips in ALDs. Done it several times at Applebees in Hooksett, NH, several restaurants in North Conway including an Applebees and Friendly's when I was on vacation up there, even at many Dunkin Donuts locations throughout NH. The one question I have is "What are these people doing with the ALDs once they get them?" Do they investigate them? Do they set them aside? Do they throw them away thinking they are a joke? I would like to know.
If you want servers to take your Liberty Dollars seriously, leave one dollar in addition to the tip. That way, instead of being upset that you did not tip them the full 15%, they will be appreciative of the full tip and instantly curious about the Liberty Dollar.
Quote from: Ron Helwig on September 04, 2007, 10:32 PM NHFT
I think what we need is a small card to go with the tips with a very short explanation and a URL for more info.
Also, the 1$ Copper Liberties might be good to use as partial tips.
yeah a slick business card would be a great idea.
Kinda like the 'liberty card'... but dealing with the LD.
I agree with Ron. A card briefly explaining LDs and their role in the economy would make a great companion to the Silver Certificates or Liberties given as tips to our fellow hard working Americans.
And yes, the wait staff should not get a majority of their tip in LDs just yet. We don't want them feeling as though they got cheated without them fully understanding the concept and benefits of the LDs. At this early stage of introducing the LD to the NH economy, putting a bad taste in people's mouths just might turn them off from ever researching and eventually supporting the Liberty Dollar. We want educate the community, not piss them off. I, myself, only leave a $1 Silver Certificate in addition to the FRN tip for a couple of reasons. 1) I mentioned above regarding the wait staff feeling cheated and 2) if I spend more on just one person, that limits my ability to introduce the LD to as many people as I can.
Quote from: Ron Helwig on September 04, 2007, 10:32 PM NHFT
I think what we need is a small card to go with the tips with a very short explanation and a URL for more info.
Also, the 1$ Copper Liberties might be good to use as partial tips.
at the Common Man, Concord, Wed. night: left tip of $1FRN + $1LD Copper + 1 Deception Dollar (http://www.deceptiondollar.com/) - that ought to keep the bartender busy for a while! :)
QuoteFollowing the road of gold leads eventually only to the Emerald City, which may symbolize the fraudulent world of greenback paper money that only pretends to have value, or may symbolize the greenback value that is placed on gold (and for silver, possibly).
What's interesting, too, is that the only reason the Emerald City appears to be green is because of the spectacles locked onto the heads of everyone visiting. The spectacles are putatively to protect visitors and residents from the "overwhelming brilliance" of the city, but actually just make everything appear to be green when it's actually plain white - a fraud, in other words.
I whanged out a little prototype for a Liberty Dollar Gift Card.
I based it on a $5 silver Liberty, and I'll work on adjusting it for other LD's
It holds onto the round pretty well when only printed out on standard printer paper (cuts are made on the 45-degree grey lines with a razor), so I think they'll work out nicely when printed on a good card stock.
Any suggestions for improvements / redesign?
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Nice job on the card. Here are some comments:
Front side:
- I like the layout
- It should be 99.9 % instead of 99.999 %
- Instead of "give you a gift of $___", you might simply offer to exchange it for full face value of FRNs. You might also consider leaving out this entire sentence. It is, after all, a gift.
Back side:
- Too much stuffed in there. I'm not sure if people would really read all of this. I would suggest instead making a bullet-point list of Liberty Dollar features. This might work better if printing in the other orientation.
- I would suggest leading them only to NHLibertyDollar.com. Also mention that they can find local merchants accepting Liberty Dollars there.
Another excellent idea by Bald Eagle.
I posted on NH Liberty Dollar in response to the folks who keep saying we should just try using generic silver as money:
http://nhlibertydollar.com/blog/2007/sep/silver_money_why_bother_liberty_dollar
(Note: I posted the same link on a different Liberty Dollar thread)
I haven't read every single post on this thread yet, but I'm sure it got contentious at times. I've been a supporter of the ALD since about 2001, though not officially an Associate until about 2 years ago. I have heard EVERY argument there is about whey the ALD is unethical, silly, whatever. I found none of them to be convincing. An item is worth whatever the two individuals involved in the transaction say it's worth. If someone accepts an ALD at face value, that is a CHOICE they have made and it must be worth it to them.
I won't try and refute all of the arguments here, because frankly I'm kind of tired of the debate. If you don't like it, don't use it and don't accept it in exchange.
Nuff said.
Just found this anonymous web hosting company that takes liberty dollars: http://www.katzglobal.com/hosting/hosting.html
Some very reputable friends of mine use it, and really like it.