Some Vermonters are complaining about the patrol's more aggressive tactics, especially the use of highway checkpoints as far as 100 miles from the border. They say the random checkpoints -- which stop all passing cars inside the state, even if they're not headed to or from the border -- can make driving within their state feel like being in Eastern Europe under communism.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2006/12/19/border_stops_snag_drugs_no_terrorists/
"Pretty annoying" is the harshest criticism?
My own personal criticism is considered unprintable by most newspapers.
They do this in NH as well.
I don't know why we just don't put checkpoints AT the borders. Seems more logical to me. I mean, people could have business just over the border in Vermont, and not even need to go as far south a... OH WAIT WE DO.
Quote from: aries on December 20, 2006, 06:47 PM NHFT
They do this in NH as well.
:angryfire: :pissedoff: :soapbox:
Great, now I have a whole OTHER set of bureaucrats to piss off within 5 minutes of my return to NH. >:D
Quote from: aries on December 20, 2006, 06:47 PM NHFT
I don't know why we just don't put checkpoints AT the borders. Seems more logical to me. I mean, people could have business just over the border in Vermont, and not even need to go as far south a... OH WAIT WE DO.
Checkpoints at the borders? Oh, that would never work...
don't the toll booths take pictures of your license plate as you pass through them? I could be blowing smoke, but it's something myself and friends have hypothesised for a while. . . if not NH, Maine has gotta do this, like a video camera near those blue lights keeping a record of when you enter and when you leave, and where you go within the state.
No I'm not saying all tolls have this, I don't think Dover tolls have these, but perhaps the 95 tolls?
Quote from: TEBON on December 20, 2006, 07:42 PM NHFT
don't the toll booths take pictures of your license plate as you pass through them? I could be blowing smoke, but it's something myself and friends have hypothesised for a while. . . if not NH, Maine has gotta do this, like a video camera near those blue lights keeping a record of when you enter and when you leave, and where you go within the state.
No I'm not saying all tolls have this, I don't think Dover tolls have these, but perhaps the 95 tolls?
I don't know if they do in Mass. -- this prankster dude had a pretty good time paying the toll with a variety of methods (including taping an IOU to the change basket) and it doesn't sound like he ever got in trouble:
http://www.zug.com/pranks/turnpike/
Why do they do this in Vermont and not in NH?
They do. I93 has checkpoints on occasion about 100 miles from the border. Huge show with 8 or 9 vehicles including large vans and state and local participation. They stop everyone.
Cathleen
Quote from: KurtDaBear on December 21, 2006, 03:26 PM NHFT
Why do they do this in Vermont and not in NH?
They do, on occasion. They had one set up this past summer, for a week or so.
But NH only has one part-time border crossing. More traffic goes through VT.
Customs & Border Patrol lists their authority to search here:
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/admissability/authority_to_search.xml
QuoteA U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officer?s border search authority is derived through 19 U.S.C. 1467 and 19 C.F.R. 162.6, which states that, ?All persons, baggage and merchandise arriving in the Customs territory of the United States from places outside thereof are liable to inspection by a CBP officer.?
In other words, by the law they cite, they have no authority to search anyone who isn't "arriving" in the U.S.
Kevin
Quote from: KBCraig on December 21, 2006, 06:16 PM NHFT
Customs & Border Patrol lists their authority to search here:
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/admissability/authority_to_search.xml
QuoteA U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officer?s border search authority is derived through 19 U.S.C. 1467 and 19 C.F.R. 162.6, which states that, ?All persons, baggage and merchandise arriving in the Customs territory of the United States from places outside thereof are liable to inspection by a CBP officer.?
In other words, by the law they cite, they have no authority to search anyone who isn't "arriving" in the U.S.
Kevin
That's good to know, but I suppose if you insisted on applying it, you'd probably spend a few days in a federal holding tank before they'd admit that, by golly, you were right. And, of course, they would have had to search you and your vehicle to conduct a proper inventory at time of detention.
(Incidentally, we have permanent federal border stations many miles inside Calif. in the southern part of the state, but I thought that was peculiar to the southwest because of the immigration situation.)
Quote from: KurtDaBear on December 21, 2006, 06:27 PM NHFT
(Incidentally, we have permanent federal border stations many miles inside Calif. in the southern part of the state, but I thought that was peculiar to the southwest because of the immigration situation.)
yeah that is what about 30-40 miles North of the border?
La Migra!
I also remember when I drove to CA there was an agricultural stop at the border.
I told him if he searched the back of the trailer he would have to put it all back how he found it.
Quote from: Dreepa on December 21, 2006, 06:50 PM NHFT
Quote from: KurtDaBear on December 21, 2006, 06:27 PM NHFT
(Incidentally, we have permanent federal border stations many miles inside Calif. in the southern part of the state, but I thought that was peculiar to the southwest because of the immigration situation.)
yeah that is what about 30-40 miles North of the border?
La Migra!
I also remember when I drove to CA there was an agricultural stop at the border.
I told him if he searched the back of the trailer he would have to put it all back how he found it.
Does CA claim the right to search all incoming vehicles?
Quote from: aries on December 22, 2006, 04:58 AM NHFT
Quote from: Dreepa on December 21, 2006, 06:50 PM NHFT
I also remember when I drove to CA there was an agricultural stop at the border.
I told him if he searched the back of the trailer he would have to put it all back how he found it.
Does CA claim the right to search all incoming vehicles?
I saw one of these in Utah. I just drove right past it.
From ACLU-VT:
=============================
"Traffic checkpoints" -- as distinguised from "line watches" on
borders -- have been used by the INS since 1927.
For authority to operate checkpoints up to within 100 miles of the
border, see the 1976 U.S. Supreme Court case, "U.S. v. Martinez-Fuerte."
=============================
UNITED STATES v. MARTINEZ-FUERTE, 428 U.S. 543 (1976) (http://www.roadblock.org/federal/caseUSmartinez.htm)
I don't want to get into the Supreme Court's tortured misreading and abuse of the Constitution right now. But I do want to draw attention to one thing:
QuoteWe noted last Term that "[e]stimates of the number of illegal immigrants [already] in the United States vary widely. A conservative estimate in 1972 produced a figure of about one million, but the Immigration and Naturalization Service now suggests there may be as many as 10 or 12 million aliens illegally in the country."
That was in 1975.30 years later, the best available estimates are STILL 10 to 12 million illegal aliens in the country.
So if there are illegal aliens coming IN, there must also be illegal aliens LEAVING.
Something to ponder...why would anyone want to leave the United States of America? :o
They have a border patrol road block in the southbound lane of I-93 around Exit 31 (between Lincoln and Thornton) every year during motorcycle week (around father's day). I've been stopped and they ask questions like "Are you a U.S. citizen," "where are you traveling to." And they take the opportunity to peer into your car and look around. I'm curious how many arrests/detainments they actually make from these?
Quote from: error on December 22, 2006, 08:50 PM NHFT
I don't want to get into the Supreme Court's tortured misreading and abuse of the Constitution right now. But I do want to draw attention to one thing:
QuoteWe noted last Term that "[e]stimates of the number of illegal immigrants [already] in the United States vary widely. A conservative estimate in 1972 produced a figure of about one million, but the Immigration and Naturalization Service now suggests there may be as many as 10 or 12 million aliens illegally in the country."
That was in 1975.
30 years later, the best available estimates are STILL 10 to 12 million illegal aliens in the country.
So if there are illegal aliens coming IN, there must also be illegal aliens LEAVING.
Something to ponder...why would anyone want to leave the United States of America? :o
you could be right, they could be leaving. . . but ask those people in South Central LA, who KNOW there's more illegals here now than ever. . . since their formerly BLACK peice of the city, is now just another Hispanic hometown.
There are more illegals coming in (in the last 10 years) than all Irish and Italian legal immigrants in the history of the US.
Quote from: malevil on December 23, 2006, 06:47 AM NHFT
They have a border patrol road block in the southbound lane of I-93 around Exit 31 (between Lincoln and Thornton) every year during motorcycle week (around father's day). I've been stopped and they ask questions like "Are you a U.S. citizen," "where are you traveling to." And they take the opportunity to peer into your car and look around. I'm curious how many arrests/detainments they actually make from these?
Dude,
Did they demand to see "your papers," or was it just those questions (which is bad enough anyway)?
They do arrest people that have drugs or anything in the car, and if you challenge them they get a state cop to ask for license/registration
Quote from: malevil on December 23, 2006, 06:47 AM NHFT
They have a border patrol road block in the southbound lane of I-93 around Exit 31 (between Lincoln and Thornton) every year during motorcycle week (around father's day). I've been stopped and they ask questions like "Are you a U.S. citizen," "where are you traveling to." And they take the opportunity to peer into your car and look around. I'm curious how many arrests/detainments they actually make from these?
How far into NH would that checkpoint be, and did your vehicle have NH plates?
Quote from: KurtDaBear on December 23, 2006, 10:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: malevil on December 23, 2006, 06:47 AM NHFT
They have a border patrol road block in the southbound lane of I-93 around Exit 31 (between Lincoln and Thornton) every year during motorcycle week (around father's day). I've been stopped and they ask questions like "Are you a U.S. citizen," "where are you traveling to." And they take the opportunity to peer into your car and look around. I'm curious how many arrests/detainments they actually make from these?
How far into NH would that checkpoint be, and did your vehicle have NH plates?
about exactly 100 miles of highway between Lincoln NH and Stanstead Quebec
I have NH plates. They stare at your plates as you approach the roadblock, then give you a more cursory look if you're from NH. I've seen people pulled over and they usually have out of state plates. I know the stupid roadblock is always there during motorcycle week, but I always forget to pull off the highway and take Rt. 3 to avoid it.
When I was going to college in San Diego in the late 90's, the local LP did yearly "roadblocks." They would pull over in a big van with a huge pro-freedom message on the side, "assume the position" (legs spread, hands against the side of the van), and generally make themselves very visible.
I wonder how they'd react to such a demonstration by undergrounders next motorcycle week?
Everyone could drive a Dada-esque car through the checkpoint (covered with signs, etc.).
Quote from: malevil on December 23, 2006, 06:43 PM NHFT
I have NH plates. They stare at your plates as you approach the roadblock, then give you a more cursory look if you're from NH. I've seen people pulled over and they usually have out of state plates. I know the stupid roadblock is always there during motorcycle week, but I always forget to pull off the highway and take Rt. 3 to avoid it.
It sounds like that have at least a small sense of the absurdity of their position. Based on the pretext they're using, it would be difficult to justify stopping cars from NH scores of miles inside NH on grounds they've crossed an international border. (They tend to just wave Calif. cars through their roadblocks here, and lately the state has been really lax on its "Agricultural Inspection" stations, too.)
Ohio does in state roadblocks. Supposebly to check for insurance, alcohol, licence, ect.
I've never gone through one, but I hear about one locally once or twice a year. It probably happens more than that, I just don't hear about them.
oh ... they only check for your "papers" .... then ok.
We should carry 'stick on' Swasticas to hand them when they stop us. "Here,......you might need this"
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on December 26, 2006, 07:35 AM NHFT
We should carry 'stick on' Swastikas to hand them when they stop us. "Here,......you might need this"
Brilliant! :clapping:
+1!
Incidentally, I thought I would be spending the night in jail Saturday, as I came upon flashing blue lights in the road just over a small rise. I stopped, and a surprisingly pleasant female cop warned me of an accident and icy road conditions just over the next rise. I was quite surprised . . . not only that the cop was actually nice, but that I didn't panic in abject fear as I approached the roadlock and certain incarceration for DWL (fourth year).
Quote from: maineiac on December 23, 2006, 09:58 AM NHFT
Quote from: malevil on December 23, 2006, 06:47 AM NHFT
They have a border patrol road block in the southbound lane of I-93 around Exit 31 (between Lincoln and Thornton) every year during motorcycle week (around father's day). I've been stopped and they ask questions like "Are you a U.S. citizen," "where are you traveling to." And they take the opportunity to peer into your car and look around. I'm curious how many arrests/detainments they actually make from these?
Dude,
Did they demand to see "your papers," or was it just those questions (which is bad enough anyway)?
I'm still curious to learn the answer to this question. Malevil, are you there?
Quote from: fsp-ohio on December 25, 2006, 09:25 PM NHFT
Ohio does in state roadblocks. Supposebly to check for insurance, alcohol, licence, ect.
I've never gone through one, but I hear about one locally once or twice a year. It probably happens more than that, I just don't hear about them.
We have those all over the place in Calif. also. The pretext is that they're DUI (Driving Under the Influence) checkpoints. My informal survey over the past two years shows that the average "DUI Checkpoint" stops approx. 1,500 citizens and results in one drunk driving arrest. Usually, however, about 50 other people are arrested or have their vehicles impounded for all sorts of other things. Obviously, the DUI thing is just a pretext for public stop-and-frisk operations by local goon squads.
My city (Fairfield, CA) is currently being sued by a guy who made a U-turn to get out of one of these things, then was chased down by police. After he repeatedly rejected their requests to search his car, they arrested him on suspicion of DUI, then searched his car. All charges were later dropped, and now he's suing for false arrest and violation of his civil rights.
Quote from: maineiac on December 26, 2006, 09:52 AM NHFT
Quote from: maineiac on December 23, 2006, 09:58 AM NHFT
Quote from: malevil on December 23, 2006, 06:47 AM NHFT
They have a border patrol road block in the southbound lane of I-93 around Exit 31 (between Lincoln and Thornton) every year during motorcycle week (around father's day). I've been stopped and they ask questions like "Are you a U.S. citizen," "where are you traveling to." And they take the opportunity to peer into your car and look around. I'm curious how many arrests/detainments they actually make from these?
Dude,
Did they demand to see "your papers," or was it just those questions (which is bad enough anyway)?
I'm still curious to learn the answer to this question. Malevil, are you there?
Sorry Maineiac....been out of commission with the flu. No, they did not demand to see my papers, but, like I said, I have NH plates...and my new-millenium-June-Cleaver-meets-soccer-mom looks probably don't arouse any suspicion >:D
Quote from: KurtDaBear on December 26, 2006, 10:59 AM NHFTAll charges were later dropped, and now he's suing for false arrest and violation of his civil rights.
I'm sure that will work out well. ::)
Quote from: malevil on December 27, 2006, 08:35 AM NHFTand my new-millenium-June-Cleaver-meets-soccer-mom looks probably don't arouse any suspicion >:D
In CA those are the folks that they like to pull over and ticket ... since you probably will not shoot the cops down.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on December 27, 2006, 02:58 PM NHFT
I'm sure that will work out well. ::)
Right. Sarcasm is noted. The city has asserted its officers did nothing wrong and that it will vigorously defend itself. Meanwhile, the poor sucker who was arrested on apparently groundless charges has spent a night in jail, had his car impounded, (which I know from experience runs a minimum of about $300 here), probably missed some work and has had to spring for two lawyers, one on the DUI charge and one for the suit. Even if he wins, he'll be lucky to break even.
On the other hand, just on the off chance that he were to get a decent settlement, it could encourage others in the populace to be less passive about these stop-and-frisk operations.
He paid for lawyers and still lost ... what a waste of money.
They had one of these checkpoints in Utah recently.
Those who attempted to change directions or drive past it were chased down and ticketed. 50% of people driving through received tickets that night. :o
Quote from: Russell Kanning on December 27, 2006, 11:12 PM NHFT
He paid for lawyers and still lost ... what a waste of money.
More of Russell's simple yet brilliant wisdom.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on December 27, 2006, 11:12 PM NHFT
He paid for lawyers and still lost ... what a waste of money.
Well, he's won one (getting the original charges dropped) , and one is pending. The average self-agrandizing prosecutor does not just drop a charge, no matter how flimsy, if the victim does not put up some resistance. That means either this guy or his lawyer put up a good enough defense to make the charges go away, which then created the foundation for the false-arrest suit, which is pending. (Also, the false-arrest suit is probably being done on a contingency basis, which costs him nothing if he loses.)