Crossposted to FSP Forum
I just wanted to throw this on here. This sign is located along I-5 in Washington, about mile marker 72 south of Centralia/Chehalis (in case you wanted to look on a map.) I had reason to be in the area today and I pulled over and snapped a couple shots with the digital camera. This sign has been there for years and the guy changes the message every couple of weeks - different stuff on each side. Thought you might like to see it as a possibility for getting out pro-freedom messages in NH.
Man - if only I could get the guy to run a message about the FSP on there. :D I wonder what the daily vehicle count is. (After I wrote this, I got curious and went digging. I found this on a Corps of Engineers website: The most recently published Average Daily Traffic (ADT) volumes cited an average of 54,800 vehicles from 5 milepost stations between MP 69 and 86 in the year 2000, ranging between 45,000 and 65,000 vehicles (WSDOT and FHWA 2001).)
(http://aycu14.webshots.com/image/10533/2004577852407227276_rs.jpg)
(http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/11234/2004576153401774748_rs.jpg)
These signs look xenophobic. It would be great to get billboards put up, but are all of the signs this guy puts up like this? I wouldn't want people to think the FSP was anti-immigration.
Quote from: earthhaven on January 27, 2007, 10:16 PM NHFT
These signs look xenophobic. It would be great to get billboards put up, but are all of the signs this guy puts up like this? I wouldn't want people to think the FSP was anti-immigration.
That's an interesting interpretation. I hadn't seen them that way. I saw someone who is 1)frustrated that health care is subsidized by taking money from one person and giving it to another, and 2) frustrated that we provide government services in 47 different languages, again by dipping into public coffers. I just wonder if he realizes that health care shouldn't be subsidized at all and care for the poor and indigent should be provided by charitable organizations, and frankly I think he's right on the other. Most services shouldn't be provided at all by government, and those services that we are going to keep should be provided in one common language. If you move here and don't speak the language, bring your own interpreter.
Yes - he's more conservative than libertarian, but from what I've seen over the years, he might be convertable. :)
Regardless of whether or not the guy doesn't like immigrants/aliens, the signs are thought-provoking. I think it's great to see people doing these kinds of things. Sounds like this guy could be of some help to us. Or at the very least, he's given us a good idea. Perhaps an FSP billboard is in order?
Quote from: Quantrill on January 27, 2007, 11:10 PM NHFT
Perhaps an FSP billboard is in order?
Anyone got land along 93 just north of the MA border? You could have all kinds of fun with a sign that big. >:D
The FSP tries very hard to not be associated with any particular ideology, and will vehemenantly oppose any suggestion that they are for or against any issue. I think they are right to do that, that way issues do not cloud the water of their agenda, and cause breaks within the group. It would be better to claim association with some other group that is more specifically for or against immigration or any other idea. :)
Quote from: Crocuta on January 27, 2007, 10:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: earthhaven on January 27, 2007, 10:16 PM NHFT
These signs look xenophobic.
he's more conservative than libertarian, but from what I've seen over the years, he might be convertable. :)
Make no mistake: there are MANY (as in, millions) of people in exactly that boat.
They (we) used to think of themselves (OK, ok, "ourselves") as "Republicans"... until the Republicans started spending like Democrats, or some other triggering event happened.
If you want to get many, many more people to join the freedom movement, work on converting the people who are already 80% in agreement on specific issues, but haven't really considered the entire philosophy.
To be frank, anyone who wants "smaller government" is GOOD to have associated with us, and to have working for change in New Hampshire, even if they don't yet get that making a giant government bureaucracy to keep out immigrants is just not as good idea.
Quote from: d_goddard on January 29, 2007, 06:11 AM NHFT
To be frank, anyone who wants "smaller government" is GOOD to have associated with us, and to have working for change in New Hampshire, even if they don't yet get that making a giant government bureaucracy to keep out immigrants is just not as good idea.
I see the anti-immigration bureaucracies as being major threats towards freedom. Anti-immigration = police state. I know that it is important to convert people, but I've found that people who hate brown people can be hard to convert to liberty. Then again I have only seen this with the people I have spoken with so maybe others will have better luck :).
Are we talking about anti-immigrants or anti-illegal aliens?
Quote from: earthhaven on January 29, 2007, 09:07 AM NHFT
Quote from: d_goddard on January 29, 2007, 06:11 AM NHFT
To be frank, anyone who wants "smaller government" is GOOD to have associated with us, and to have working for change in New Hampshire, even if they don't yet get that making a giant government bureaucracy to keep out immigrants is just not as good idea.
I see the anti-immigration bureaucracies as being major threats towards freedom. Anti-immigration = police state. I know that it is important to convert people, but I've found that people who hate brown people can be hard to convert to liberty. Then again I have only seen this with the people I have spoken with so maybe others will have better luck :).
I definately agree with you.
I prefer to ostracize anybody who hates people based on something as totally arbitrary as skin color or land of birth, and refuses to see reason.
I was born and raised in the South, where racism and other remnants of the South's former peculiar institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiar_institution) still pervade everything.
I left at the first opportunity.
This anti-immigration sentiment is just more of the same blind unthinking hatred of anything different.
Quote from: Quantrill on January 29, 2007, 10:40 PM NHFT
Are we talking about anti-immigrants or anti-illegal aliens?
Illegal aliens are immigrants . . . .
Quote from: Braddogg on January 30, 2007, 07:55 AM NHFT
Quote from: Quantrill on January 29, 2007, 10:40 PM NHFT
Are we talking about anti-immigrants or anti-illegal aliens?
Illegal aliens are immigrants . . . .
Thank you. It drives me crazy when people say "I'm for immigration, just legal immigration."
It drives me crazy when non-U.S. citizens enter this country unlawfully. When I get busted for speeding I have to pay a hefty fine. Why am I subject to the laws of this country yet "immigrants" are not? And what about the property owners whose lands are being tresspassed on? Tough luck for them? The government is not supposed to protect their property? If I am on your property and am not wanted is it tough luck for you?
I think it's ridiculous to say that people who believe in border security are racist. The 9/11 hijackers came from Canada and I am STRONGLY in favor of more enforcement on both borders. This is one of the few things that our government is actually allowed to do per the Constitution. I don't want a government that goes overseas and stirs up trouble, but the government is there in part to protect our borders...
Quote from: Quantrill on January 30, 2007, 05:57 PM NHFT
It drives me crazy when non-U.S. citizens enter this country unlawfully. When I get busted for speeding I have to pay a hefty fine. Why am I subject to the laws of this country yet "immigrants" are not? And what about the property owners whose lands are being tresspassed on? Tough luck for them? The government is not supposed to protect their property? If I am on your property and am not wanted is it tough luck for you?
I think it's ridiculous to say that people who believe in border security are racist. The 9/11 hijackers came from Canada and I am STRONGLY in favor of more enforcement on both borders. This is one of the few things that our government is actually allowed to do per the Constitution. I don't want a government that goes overseas and stirs up trouble, but the government is there in part to protect our borders...
Let's see here. I'm pretty sure the hijackers on 9/11 entered this country legally.
If you have to ask permission to enter and leave a country clearly you do NOT live in a free country. I want to live in a free country.
Are people better depending on where they were born?
No. They had fake IDs and came down through Canada. I'm not going to argue this point anymore, as my refusal to be assimilated has resulted in a lot of smiting.
I do not think that people are better depending on where they were born but there is no question that people not born in this country are not U.S. citizens. Hence the need for border security.
Anyway, back on topic, big signs/billboards are a good idea and maybe we can work together to think of some slogans for said signs...
This is a problem with a simple two-step solution (it should be done in order):
(1) Eliminate all government hand-outs (including corporate welfare); and
(2) Eliminate all laws regulating / restricting immigration / emigration.
Result = free flow of free people at no cost to taxpayers.
Quote from: Spencer on January 30, 2007, 07:47 PM NHFT
This is a problem with a simple two-step solution (it should be done in order):
(1) Eliminate all government hand-outs (including corporate welfare); and
(2) Eliminate all laws regulating / restricting immigration / emigration.
Result = free flow of free people at no cost to taxpayers.
Sounds good to me :)
Interestingly enough, I don't have a problem with that either...
:)
Alright, now that we've reached common ground, let's get ourselves one big ass sign.
Quote from: earthhaven on January 30, 2007, 09:06 PM NHFT
Quote from: Spencer on January 30, 2007, 07:47 PM NHFT
This is a problem with a simple two-step solution (it should be done in order):
(1) Eliminate all government hand-outs (including corporate welfare); and
(2) Eliminate all laws regulating / restricting immigration / emigration.
Result = free flow of free people at no cost to taxpayers.
Sounds good to me :)
Quote from: Quantrill on January 30, 2007, 10:48 PM NHFT
Interestingly enough, I don't have a problem with that either...
:)
Quote from: Spencer on January 30, 2007, 11:18 PM NHFT
Alright, now that we've reached common ground, let's get ourselves one big ass sign.
Include me in that group, too.
People often misidentify the problem, and instead attack the symptom. When "illegals" are trespassing and trashing private property, or are dying in the desert, traditionalists want an iron curtain and landmines on the border. The right response is to make them answer this question: "Why are they walking through the middle of the desert and cutting across private land?"
The answer is simple:
Because they can't just drive up the highway like everyone else!Most traditionalist, "keep us safe from terrorists!"-type folks will accept a system that identifies everyone entering the country. It's pretty tough to ID people walking through the desert on foot, but relatively easy to ID them in their cars at manned border checkpoints. So, why not allow everyone in through the ports?
Throw in the argument to eliminate government welfare systems, and you've got a clincher.
Not saying that I think people should have to produce ID for crossing a national boundary, but this is a pretty good response for people who want to crack down on "illegal immigration".
Kevin
Quote from: Quantrill on January 30, 2007, 05:57 PM NHFTWhen I get busted for speeding I have to pay a hefty fine. Why am I subject to the laws of this country yet "immigrants" are not?
This used to bother me .... now I live like an illegal immigrant. I am more free now. :) I have achieved "mexican status" as I like to call it.
Quote from: Quantrill on January 30, 2007, 07:43 PM NHFTI'm not going to argue this point anymore, as my refusal to be assimilated has resulted in a lot of smiting.
Hence the need for border security.
So you like government border security (political power) but you kinda are annoyed at smiting (social power). I look forward to a time where there are no borders, but plenty of social interaction and pressure. :)
Albert Nock had some good thoughts on the subject.
Quote from: KBCraig on January 31, 2007, 02:18 AM NHFT
Most traditionalist, "keep us safe from terrorists!"-type folks will accept a system that identifies everyone entering the country. It's pretty tough to ID people walking through the desert on foot, but relatively easy to ID them in their cars at manned border checkpoints. So, why not allow everyone in through the ports?
That is already in place. Fucking iris scan and fingerprinting as well as interrogation about everything to be let in as a simple tourist. I can only imagine what they do to people who want to immigrate.
Quote from: lordmetroid on January 31, 2007, 02:03 PM NHFT
Quote from: KBCraig on January 31, 2007, 02:18 AM NHFT
Most traditionalist, "keep us safe from terrorists!"-type folks will accept a system that identifies everyone entering the country. It's pretty tough to ID people walking through the desert on foot, but relatively easy to ID them in their cars at manned border checkpoints. So, why not allow everyone in through the ports?
That is already in place. Fucking iris scan and fingerprinting as well as interrogation about everything to be let in as a simple tourist. I can only imagine what they do to people who want to immigrate.
For people who want to "immigrate" "legally" that's just the beginning. Then follows mountains of paperwork, and if the government loses a single sheet while you navigate the bureaucratic labyrinth, you get thrown out and have to start over. Or you get deported. Or you get thrown in jail. Or you get extraordinarily rendered to Syria and tortured for a year.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on January 31, 2007, 06:43 AM NHFT
Quote from: Quantrill on January 30, 2007, 07:43 PM NHFTI'm not going to argue this point anymore, as my refusal to be assimilated has resulted in a lot of smiting.
Hence the need for border security.
So you like government border security (political power) but you kinda are annoyed at smiting (social power). I look forward to a time where there are no borders, but plenty of social interaction and pressure. :)
Albert Nock had some good thoughts on the subject.
I am annoyed at smiting because I thought Libertarians were supposed to be tolerant. Name-calling and belittling those whose opinions differ from yours is not a very effective recruiting tactic. I try very hard to be open-minded but I admit I find it very difficult to be 100% objective when someone is being confrontational (even on an internet chat board). I understand that there are Libertarians, conservatives, Georgists, Randians, ANCAPS, independents, potheads, RLC-types, etc... and hopefully all these people think for themselves as opposed to blindly following the "party line" so to speak. Why would the FSP work with NORML when many NORML members are not Libertarians? Answer - They can work together for a
common goal. I look forward to a time where people refuse to be told what to think. As it is, people mock "us" because "our" views are not in the mainstream. Russell are you saying you should abandon your line of thinking due to peer pressure? If all your neighbors are Socialists and belittle your opinions should you admit defeat and join them? Of course not. That's the reason for joining the FSP - to concentrate "liberty lovers" in one state where we can regain lost freedoms, not look down our collective noses at those who disagree with us...
P.S. (Again to Rusell) While I seem to spend a lot of time disagreeing with some of your views I want you to know I like some of the things you are
doing and if you dress like Don Quixote and joust with stuffed IRS agents PLEASE put a video on youtube or somewhere!
Cheers. :occasion14:
Quote from: Quantrill on January 30, 2007, 05:57 PM NHFT
When I get busted for speeding I have to pay a hefty fine. Why am I subject to the laws of this country yet "immigrants" are not?
Isn't it preferable to have
less enforcement of unjust laws rather than more?
When you get busted for speeding, do you say to yourself "Gee, if only the government would steal money from everyone driving over the speed limit."?
or "I pay taxes so all tax evaders should be put in jail"?
etc.
Why begrudge someone his liberty?
QuoteWhy begrudge someone his liberty?
I understand your point but I don't know that letting non-U.S. citizens tresspass on private property constitutes liberty. I could just as easily have said "When I tresspass on private property I can be shot or arrested. Why am I subject to this law if "immigrants" are not?"
If a law is unjust then I won't fault people for not obeying said law.
Quote from: Quantrill on January 31, 2007, 08:06 PM NHFT
QuoteWhy begrudge someone his liberty?
I understand your point but I don't know that letting non-U.S. citizens tresspass on private property constitutes liberty. I could just as easily have said "When I tresspass on private property I can be shot or arrested. Why am I subject to this law if "immigrants" are not?"
I don't think that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) get a free pass at trespassing on private property. You have to keep in mind that most of them come here for work--in which case they enter private property with the express consent of the owner who's hiring them to pick crops or whatever.
If an immigrant rides in a car up I-5 across the border into San Diego, has he committed a
true crime deserving of punishment? Has he trespassed on anyone's person or property? I would say no. If he commits a true crime, then certainly the wrongdoer is entitled to act in defense of his person or property.
Quote from: Quantrill on January 31, 2007, 07:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: Russell Kanning on January 31, 2007, 06:43 AM NHFT
Quote from: Quantrill on January 30, 2007, 07:43 PM NHFTI'm not going to argue this point anymore, as my refusal to be assimilated has resulted in a lot of smiting.
Hence the need for border security.
So you like government border security (political power) but you kinda are annoyed at smiting (social power). I look forward to a time where there are no borders, but plenty of social interaction and pressure. :)
Albert Nock had some good thoughts on the subject.
I am annoyed at smiting because I thought Libertarians were supposed to be tolerant. Name-calling and belittling those whose opinions differ from yours is not a very effective recruiting tactic. I try very hard to be open-minded but I admit I find it very difficult to be 100% objective when someone is being confrontational (even on an internet chat board). I understand that there are Libertarians, conservatives, Georgists, Randians, ANCAPS, independents, potheads, RLC-types, etc... and hopefully all these people think for themselves as opposed to blindly following the "party line" so to speak. Why would the FSP work with NORML when many NORML members are not Libertarians? Answer - They can work together for a common goal. I look forward to a time where people refuse to be told what to think. As it is, people mock "us" because "our" views are not in the mainstream. Russell are you saying you should abandon your line of thinking due to peer pressure? If all your neighbors are Socialists and belittle your opinions should you admit defeat and join them? Of course not. That's the reason for joining the FSP - to concentrate "liberty lovers" in one state where we can regain lost freedoms, not look down our collective noses at those who disagree with us...
P.S. (Again to Rusell) While I seem to spend a lot of time disagreeing with some of your views I want you to know I like some of the things you are doing and if you dress like Don Quixote and joust with stuffed IRS agents PLEASE put a video on youtube or somewhere!
Cheers. :occasion14:
I don't think people should be told what to think. It's when they put their thoughts into policy and law that I have a problem.
I've got a guy down here who has a line on a BIG HP plotter.
Does the FSP or any of it's resultant subversive groups want such an item? Does anyone have any place to STORE the damn thing?
It's about 5' x 3' x 2' or thereabouts.
I think you are missing the point fsp-ohio.
I think the original post was about the idea of having BILLBOARDS to get FSP messages out, not associating the FSP with someone who doesn't like SOCIALISM.
If you like SOCIALISM so much I guess that's YOUR business, but the point was the idea that these billboards reach many people.
Quote from: Bald Eagle on February 13, 2007, 09:10 PM NHFT
I've got a guy down here who has a line on a BIG HP plotter.
Does the FSP or any of it's resultant subversive groups want such an item? Does anyone have any place to STORE the damn thing?
It's about 5' x 3' x 2' or thereabouts.
HP plotter?
HP = Hewlett Packard
Quote from: Bald Eagle on February 13, 2007, 09:10 PM NHFT
I've got a guy down here who has a line on a BIG HP plotter.
Does the FSP or any of it's resultant subversive groups want such an item? Does anyone have any place to STORE the damn thing?
It's about 5' x 3' x 2' or thereabouts.
Let's talk about this. Please Pmail me...
Jack
Quote from: Quantrill on January 31, 2007, 07:15 PM NHFT
I am annoyed at smiting because I thought Libertarians were supposed to be tolerant. Name-calling and belittling those whose opinions differ from yours is not a very effective recruiting tactic.
On the contrary 'libertarians' are sometimes among the most narrow minded, purist and thus intolerant people I have ever come across.
Socialism is wrong - except sometimes when it suits them better.
State control over them is wrong, unless it is self serving, as in the case of parental notification law...
Likewise, with state-run gambling...some are willing to give the state that power just for self gratification...
And the hypocrisy goes on...you never know when true libertarian principles will be abandoned for selfishness.
However that's their business, since every case is different I suppose and I respect the rights of others to think what they wish..
But a lot of things can completely seem at odds with 'libertarianism' and even seem more in line with socialism.
Just look at the Bank America scandal that is now going on.
I'm pulling my business from them tomorrow.
Quote from: CNHT on February 14, 2007, 04:20 AM NHFT
Just look at the Bank America scandal that is now going on.
I'm pulling my business from them tomorrow.
Yeah, this is great! BoA is allowing accounts and credit cards now with no SSN. Several libertarians are rushing over there to see if they can open one today - most libertarians have been trying to do that for years!
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2007-02-13T053517Z_01_N13447905_RTRUKOC_0_US-BOFA-CARD.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
Thanks, Jane for giving another example of a good test to show if one is a libertarian, or its opposite, a conservative.
Here's the test:
Bank of America allows accounts without SSN, Do you...?:
A. Rush over to close your account...
B. Rush over and open up an account...
If you answered A, you're a conservative; if you answered B, you're a libertarian!
I don't know if libertarians and conservatives are exact opposites, but, the C's are always about 'them or us' (zero sum) and the l's are, usually are about 'them and us'
LOL, Jack...I had the same reaction...quick open an account!
I wonder if BOA would be willing to get rid of all of my numbers that they already have.
I know this is OT for the thread, but I LOVE what BoA is doing... It's just one step to eliminating the stranglehold of the IRS on Americans.
Jane - Wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I mean, I respect your opinions, but c'mon! :BangHead: You DO now that war is the ULTIMATE big-government project, right???
Happy VD everyone!!!!
JM
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on February 14, 2007, 08:48 AM NHFT
I wonder if BOA would be willing to get rid of all of my numbers that they already have.
Naw, that violates the law of "never give up data once you've got it saved", or something like that.
That was my assumption
The point is, you will find they won't...therefore I'm taking my business away from them.
They are discriminating against one group of people.
Quote from: CNHT on February 14, 2007, 10:26 AM NHFT
They are discriminating against one group of people.
That could be the basis for a civil rights action.
Quote from: jgmaynard on February 14, 2007, 08:54 AM NHFT
I know this is OT for the thread, but I LOVE what BoA is doing... It's just one step to eliminating the stranglehold of the IRS on Americans.
Jane - Wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I mean, I respect your opinions, but c'mon! :BangHead: You DO now that war is the ULTIMATE big-government project, right???
Happy VD everyone!!!!
JM
As usual, some of you have misunderstood the situation.
BoA is DISCRIMINATING and only SOME people don't have to give their SS numbers. Others do. Certainly you can't abide by that?
Which again is why I'm pulling away my multitudinous business from them.
I don't know what this has to do with war? It's war on Americans is what it is!
Hmmmmm... I thought they were not requiring SS numbers from anyone... now THAT I thought would be good... But, I'm all about people taking their business elsewhere for moral or political objections... Some people here love Wal-Mart, but I've boycotted them for over a decade.
What this has to do with war is the fact that Republicans as whole are, IMNSHO, being hypocritical in calling for smaller government while instituting and supporting the largest and most invasive government program possible. This doesn't even get into our Republican president spending money like a drunken sailor on leave, but you know that... ;)
JM
Quote from: jgmaynard on February 14, 2007, 10:52 AM NHFT
Hmmmmm... I thought they were not requiring SS numbers from anyone... now THAT I thought would be good... But, I'm all about people taking their business elsewhere for moral or political objections... Some people here love Wal-Mart, but I've boycotted them for over a decade.
What this has to do with war is the fact that Republicans as whole are, IMNSHO, being hypocritical in calling for smaller government while instituting and supporting the largest and most invasive government program possible. This doesn't even get into our Republican president spending money like a drunken sailor on leave, but you know that... ;)
JM
Well this is not about Rs or Ds -- it's about discrimination. If you are going to let some people not use SS numbers, you must let ALL.
That was the issue. And until they do, I'm outta there. I already took my savings away from them when they 'lost' some of it because they moved it without my permission!
PS - The R's in the US Legislature are no different than the D's... we had some good R's here in NH, the top 25 on the NHLA list, but thanks to the national R's, and the stupidity of voters who don't know for whom or where our NH R's work, we lost about half those 25.
I absolutely agree with you on the 1st and 3rd parts and respect your decision on the 2nd.
JM
Quote from: CNHT on February 14, 2007, 10:26 AM NHFT
The point is, you will find they won't...therefore I'm taking my business away from them.
They are discriminating against one group of people.
I bet they would be willing to give you one of these cards for $99 down, at 21+% interest, hoping you would run up and not pay the $500.00, which they can write off and then pocket the $99.
Quote from: jgmaynard on February 14, 2007, 11:05 AM NHFT
I absolutely agree with you on the 1st and 3rd parts and respect your decision on the 2nd.
JM
Thanks Jim. Sometimes something that seems pro-liberty on the face of it, deserves further study to see what the REAL consequences are.
If BoA can do this for SOME, they must do it for ALL, as in liberty and justice FOR ALL, n'est ce pas?
Quote from: jaqeboy on February 14, 2007, 08:13 AM NHFT
Quote from: CNHT on February 14, 2007, 04:20 AM NHFT
Just look at the Bank America scandal that is now going on.
I'm pulling my business from them tomorrow.
Yeah, this is great! BoA is allowing accounts and credit cards now with no SSN. Several libertarians are rushing over there to see if they can open one today - most libertarians have been trying to do that for years!
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2007-02-13T053517Z_01_N13447905_RTRUKOC_0_US-BOFA-CARD.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
Thanks, Jane for giving another example of a good test to show if one is a libertarian, or its opposite, a conservative.
Here's the test:
Bank of America allows accounts without SSN, Do you...?:
A. Rush over to close your account...
B. Rush over and open up an account...
If you answered A, you're a conservative; if you answered B, you're a libertarian!
Um Jack my excellent engineering friend! That is quite a stretch. I don't think this has to do with labels of who is libertarian and who is a conservative. Do you think shifting the tax burden from one set of people onto another is 'libertarian' ?
I think you are going to find that you won't be able to open an account without your SS number. So if you are a true libertarian (not that we are having to pass litmus tests, but since you posed it that way) I should think you would CLOSE your account in protest of BoA's discriminatory practices..
Discriminatory or not, SSNs or not, it's still BoA. And BoA still sucks!
Quote from: KBCraig on February 14, 2007, 11:34 AM NHFT
Discriminatory or not, SSNs or not, it's still BoA. And BoA still sucks!
I agree. If you heard the story of what they did to me you'd freak.
Unfortunately credit cards are another story -- sometimes they are bought out by other companies. Suddenly the place that bills you changes and you don't even know it. That is what happened to me.
Well sorry to have to add further bad news about this situation, but BoA will require some sort of taxpayer ID so earnings can still be reported to the IRS even if the person has no SS#....so I guess unless you bury your savings in the back yard and don't use credit, you cannot escape!
From another news article I read:
"Bank of America requires customers have an Internal Revenue number or "other evidence of taxpayer status" to maintain an account if they do not have a Social Security number, spokeswoman Alex Trower said."
This is why you should all wait before you get your knickers in a knot and start attacking each other for being this or that, until the whole story is revealed. I'm sure other banks will be subject to the same laws as well so it would do me no good to boycott BoA.
I thought you were the one with knickers in a knot, saying you were going to cancel your account. ::)
Quote from: Kat Kanning on February 14, 2007, 12:10 PM NHFT
I thought you were the one with knickers in a knot, saying you were going to cancel your account. ::)
I do this all the time if I think something is wrong...it's part of the freedom to do business with whom I think is being fair and shunning those whom I think are not.
I would not even have mentioned it if others hadn't said this was a good thing. I don't know how shifting the tax burden from one person to another is a good thing..and turns out, those without SS# won't get away without being reported to the IRS either, so...back to Sq #1
I knew about the taxpayer ID. I understand they are not hard to get
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on February 14, 2007, 01:09 PM NHFT
I knew about the taxpayer ID. I understand they are not hard to get
Of course not. This is the alternate way of reporting income to the IRS... I don't know why it would be needed in the case of a credit card where you are the one paying the bank, but I guess it's for reporting interest on savings. So for our purposes, really no different in whether we could circumvent the IRS...?
Ok, I guess I haven't been up on current affairs. What exactly happened with BoA?
QuoteI knew about the taxpayer ID. I understand they are not hard to get
I've been curious about this. You don't have to give a SSN to start your own business do you? Your biz would have a tax ID and you could open an account with no SSN, probably at just about any bank...
Quote from: Quantrill on February 14, 2007, 08:19 PM NHFT
Ok, I guess I haven't been up on current affairs. What exactly happened with BoA?
QuoteI knew about the taxpayer ID. I understand they are not hard to get
I've been curious about this. You don't have to give a SSN to start your own business do you? Your biz would have a tax ID and you could open an account with no SSN, probably at just about any bank...
Originally it was thought that SOME people would get to have accounts with NO SS# or anythingthat would ID them to the IRS, but that this would not include people like you and me. I was not surprised that some on this board were for that as it was pandering to special interests. Then it turned out that NO one would really escape the IRS, because the law would never allow the bank to do that...and in fact they would require some sort of TAX ID, so they would be reporting interest earned in any case. I guess then the credit card issuance is moot since as long as you have some money in savings I guess they figure you can pay the credit card interest. The bank is just really insterested in making money from you ? and anyone else they could not before....I doubt they are interested in liberty of any kind, which is why I am always stunned when the politically correct calling themselves 'libertarian' crowd jumps to support things like that.
Quote from: CNHT on February 14, 2007, 11:32 AM NHFT
Quote from: jaqeboy on February 14, 2007, 08:13 AM NHFT
Quote from: CNHT on February 14, 2007, 04:20 AM NHFT
...Bank America scandal that is now going on...I'm pulling my business from them tomorrow.
Yeah, this is great! BoA is allowing accounts and credit cards now with no SSN. Several libertarians are rushing over there to see if they can open one today - most libertarians have been trying to do that for years!
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2007-02-13T053517Z_01_N13447905_RTRUKOC_0_US-BOFA-CARD.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
Thanks, Jane for giving another example of a good test to show if one is a libertarian, or its opposite, a conservative.
Here's the test:
Bank of America allows accounts without SSN, Do you...?:
A. Rush over to close your account...
B. Rush over and open up an account...
If you answered A, you're a conservative; if you answered B, you're a libertarian!
Um Jack my excellent engineering friend! That is quite a stretch. I don't think this has to do with labels of who is libertarian and who is a conservative. Do you think shifting the tax burden from one set of people onto another is 'libertarian' ?
I think you are going to find that you won't be able to open an account without your SS number. So if you are a true libertarian (not that we are having to pass litmus tests, but since you posed it that way) I should think you would CLOSE your account in protest of BoA's discriminatory practices..
Um, I think I'm not the one to label what is pro-freedom and what is conservative - that's been done by others way before me. I'm just identifying it in this case.
The conservative issue set rares up here and a sample statement from that crowd seems to be "hey, they're getting some freedom - hey, government, crack down on those people - we don't want
them to have more freedom! [because they are a
them]"
Whereas, the libertarian says "Hey, cool, those people are getting some more freedom. Let's go over and see if we can get some more, too, and we'll all be freer."
See how those are opposite? One is upset :nono: and angry :hopmad: and lashes out (often calling for the heavy hand of the state to be involved :violent5:) and the other rejoices! :icon_cheers2:
The other interesting point is that BoA responded to a market that was unserved - we should be cheering that behaviour on, too! We should be piling on them showing them the size of our market for them to respond to.
BTW, I don't like BoA either and wouldn't generally go to them. They're just the one in the news.
And, yes, you can get a bank account without a SSN or any other number - there's a discussion on another thread, I think in the "business and job networking" area where a lot of that is laid out. It became more complicated with USA PATRIOT, which pushed a more stringent ID requirement onto Treasury, and Treasury through regs pushed CIP's, or customer identification programs down onto the banks, and the banks usu. use SSN as one of their primary ID methods.
Some new ground needs to be broken here, but the basic legal point is that there is no law requiring anyone to
have an SSN, but there is a law and Treasury regs requiring the banks to
ask for one. What happens in the middle ground formed by this dilemma is where the hassles are, but, basically, since the bank is acting in their capacity as an agent for the federal govt. ( by collecting info for them), they cannot discriminate against anyone (violation 0f 1964 civil rights act) under threat of $10,000 penalty, so the customer wins, with the bank usu. compromising by offering a non interest-bearing account.
I know this has absolutely nothing to do with Big Signs, so off of the SSN thing for me, now. I am interested in the oversize printer, though!
PS: apologies for the long post.
Quote from: Beavis on January 31, 2007, 03:58 PM NHFTOr you get extraordinarily rendered to Syria and tortured for a year.
I hate it when that happens.
.... and yes BofA moved here .... a year or so ago ... when they merged with some east coast bank. :)
BofA still sucks.
They closed my account a year and a half ago, without notice or warning, and without giving any reason.
Last month, they started E-MAILING ME about the account.
"We've switched your account from paper to online billing! Enjoy the benefits of..."
WTF.
No one called for the 'state' to take over anything in this case ? I don't see where I said that. (You might be confusing that with another thread where people are calling for the state to take over the children, in the name of 'more freedom' for them...)
I just said that discriminatory 'freedom' is not really freedom and to me, not very 'libertarian'.
I see it as more 'liberal' or 'left-wing' to support what we 'thought' they were doing, because it's fraught with special interests in that only certain groups should have rights that others don't somehow deserve and can't get.
If BoA were truly able to circumvent laws about reporting income to the feds, then they should do it for everyone.
However, I think it's a moot question, because I think they are unable to get around this law, hence the fact they will require a 'tax ID' which serves the same purpose as the SS#...
As I said, no change in BoA practices in the end.
(Had they really been giving out savings accounts with no reporting, I'd have been down there today giving them a chance to remove my SS# from my accounts since I'm an equal opportunity liberty seeker....)
As I said above, they would probably be glad to offer any one of us this deal. But, even if they won't, they are a private company and can discriminate all they want.
Apparently....for me
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on February 15, 2007, 05:49 PM NHFT
Apparently....for me
When you make the permanent move, I'll let you in on it. ;-)
Nevermind...I think I got it.