:icon_pirat:
Yes, I've set up a Ripple trading site just for us. I have been studying and tweaking this thing for several months, and I think it is ready to try out. Here is the address:
https://ripple.libertybrew.com
I've discussed the Ripple project with some of you previously, but here is the concept in a nutshell:
Quote
Ripple is a monetary system that makes simple obligations between friends as useful for making payments as regular money.
Normally, if your friend Alice owed you $10, she would have to pay you back before you could make any use of that debt. If you were creative, however, you might be able to pass the debt on to someone else who knew and trusted Alice, in exchange for something you wanted. For example, you might be able to get a book you want from Bob, who also knows Alice, in exchange for letting Alice know that she now owes Bob $10. Instead of money, you used Alice's IOU to pay Bob. Alice acts as an intermediary between you and Bob.
Ripple does the same thing, only it takes the idea one step further. What happens if you want to get a haircut from Carol, who doesn't know Alice at all? Your $10 IOU from Alice isn't useful because Carol being owed money by Alice doesn't mean anything to Carol. But suppose you had a way to find out that Bob, who knows Alice, also knows Carol. You could talk to Bob and arrange for him to take Alice's IOU in exchange for giving his own IOU for $10 to Carol. Since Alice owes him exactly what he owes Carol, Bob is even on the deal. Both Alice and Bob act as intermediaries between you and Carol.
And that's how Ripple works. You create a profile on the system and indicate who you know and how much you trust them by connecting to people by email address and giving them credit limits. Then whenever you want to make a payment to another Ripple user using only friendly obligations, the system finds a chain of intermediaries connecting you to the person you want to pay, and records the payment in each intermediary's account all the way down the chain. You end up owing one of your "neighbours" on the system, and the payment recipient ends up being owed by one of her neighbours.
So you see it is a sort of IOU tracking system. Barterers no longer have to have a specific item or service on hand in order to transfer value to others who want to trade something of value. Nor do you have to know or trust anyone who helps you by acting as an intermediary -- passing your "ripple" of wealth on to others until it comes full circle back to you. It is a monetary system one can use to advance their wealth legally and with privacy.
The units of exchange I have set up on ripple.libertybrew are:
ounces of gold
ounces of silver
USD
If several of you request an additional currency that makes sense to add, I can add it no problem. The current exchange rate is 665 USD/oz.gold and 13.5 USD/oz.silver. I will update them as the spot prices change.
The guy behind the Ripple code is Ryan Fugger. He operates Ripplepay.com, and is working on a P2P protocol that will let anyone set up a ripple node on their computer, and hopefully sync ripple sites with ease. My implementation of Ripple does not connect to Ryan's, though it may in the future.
Why did I bother to set up a ripple site just for freestaters? I wanted to take some extra security measures, and also keep this idea going solid if ripplepay is ever shut down. I plan to use it for my own personal transactions as I get to know and do business with my friends in New Hampshire. Ripple.libertybrew is the framework for the network I plan to have.
So, why not just use ripplepay.com? What are the differences between ripple.libertybrew.com and ripplepay.com?
No per-transaction emails. The system will not send details of transactions you make. It will only mail you to do things like confirm an account or reset a password. This makes it much harder for some peeping-tom to figure out that Kat paid Russel 1oz. of silver for that footrub, or that anyone was paid for any reason. Since email is no more secure than sending a postcard, it doesn't make much sense to do a transaction through an encrypted connection, then send details of it as clear text over the internet. So I took that out.
In fact, I have not left the option to connect through regular http. You may have to tell your browser to accept the certificate from webfaction.com. Putting a regular http address will redirect you to the https site.
So there it is.. everyone is welcome to log on and start making connections to others. However, I have not done extensive testing on it for security bugs, so would like some of the computer gurus on here (error, Lex Berezhny, Mr. dollars, eques et.al.) to see if you can trip it up somehow, and tell me where the edges are roughest. FYI- ripple is written in Python and uses the django platform. The source code can be found at http://sourceforge.net/projects/ripple/
I've left Ryan's donation links up on my site, and they will remain there at least as long as it takes me to get to New Hampshire. Comments and suggestions are welcome!
My time is limited, so I can't give it an extensive security review, but I would strongly recommend that everyone here download a copy of the software and keep it in a safe place (you don't need the software to use the system, but there's a higher than zero chance that certain government thugs will eventually ask SourceForge to remove it).
For those of you who do want to use the system, note well that you are very likely to attract the attention of certain government thugs by using a system such as this. Payment systems like Ripple are under intense scrutiny right now from certain government thugs due to those government thugs believing that the payment systems are connected to, or useful to, certain other terrorist organizations such as al-Qaeda.
In addition, those same government thugs will be paying close attention because systems like this allow people to not pay them the annual tribute they demand.
That's not to say that you shouldn't use the system. But you should be aware that there is a significant component of risk.
not as much risk as using a bank account and having the feds know every single transaction you make .... or as much risk as getting postal money orders from your friendly neighborhood federale ... ask Ed and Elaine. :)
I thought al-qaeda had money transfered to their bank accounts straight from homeland security.
Quote from: Russell Kanning on March 04, 2007, 02:45 AM NHFT
I thought al-qaeda had money transfered to their bank accounts straight from homeland security.
Do you really want a serious answer to that?
no
It was a joke not a question.
Oh, well, in that case, you can easily defeat fed monitoring of your bank accounts, at least in some circumstances. Computers only do what they're told, you know, and if you tell them something that's wrong, people will still believe it, simply because it was in the computer. :)
Would working with the site via a proxy and an assumed name relieve the risk concern? :)
Quote from: error on March 04, 2007, 03:58 AM NHFT
Oh, well, in that case, you can easily defeat fed monitoring of your bank accounts, at least in some circumstances. Computers only do what they're told, you know, and if you tell them something that's wrong, people will still believe it, simply because it was in the computer. :)
It certainly doesn't hurt anything to pass along bogus tit-for-tat transactions amongst your friends, just "testing" so to speak.. and only you and your trading partner would know which transactions are legit. The trust model allows for fully deniable and extremely difficult to prove transactions. Just don't extend credit to anyone you don't trust.
Quote from: Tom Sawyer on March 04, 2007, 06:13 AM NHFT
Would working with the site via a proxy and an assumed name relieve the risk concern? :)
Yes, that would help obscure the fact that you connected to the site (and you could do a better job of that by running Tor through a coffee-shop connection) but the details of what is said over the connection is already private by design. Let's say you help roof Lauren's barn, and accept $10 worth of sticky-buns in exchange. You could run that deal through the system, and the SSL session having to do with it could be decrypted by an NSA supercomputer. But at that point they would have violated your reasonable expectation of privacy, and spent ridiculous resources just to uncover a trivial transaction that is totally deniable. "I did NOT eat the sticky-buns!" ;D Personally, I plan to just assert my right to communicate privately to my friends.
Thank goodness Ryan has released Ripple as free open-source software. That makes my site worth exactly nothing to terrorists. It would be stupid for them to use libertybrew, a site I have publically announced and have full access to, when they could easily set up their own site, keep it secret, and not have any pesky freestaters with access to their database. So the probability of some terrorist using my site is practically nil. If anyone tries to badger me, using the "terror" excuse, into turning over my log of IP addresses and connection times, I will plead the 4th until such time as I have done my own investigation and see that a true crime has occurred or is imminent. And no, I won't take a stupid "security letter" as evidence. I'll dump the IP log regularly and often, for good measure.. not that it matters.. FedNerds can see what IPs connect to the site and make their own logs, as they probably do with this forum.
we are all terrorists in the eyes of the feds.
Interesting. I don't consider it secure enough to try just yet, but in principle it's very similar to hawala, but on a p2p model. Let me know how it goes, though! I may try it in the future.
I really wish you wouldn't discuss my private sticky bun transactions... ;D
Thanks for the info. :)
Quote from: powerpenguin on March 04, 2007, 05:27 PM NHFT
Interesting. I don't consider it secure enough to try just yet, but in principle it's very similar to hawala, but on a p2p model. Let me know how it goes, though! I may try it in the future.
not secure enough?
Quote from: Russell Kanning on March 04, 2007, 08:16 PM NHFT
Quote from: powerpenguin on March 04, 2007, 05:27 PM NHFT
Interesting. I don't consider it secure enough to try just yet, but in principle it's very similar to hawala, but on a p2p model. Let me know how it goes, though! I may try it in the future.
not secure enough?
"Not secure enough" in that the server and/or its data may be open to manipulation. I'm going to be looking into Ripple a bit more in the very near future, but since I work with "IT" stuff both professionally and as a hobby, I understand generally how things like this work - but I am *not* yet familiar with how Ripple actually handles the data so some of my concerns may be moot.
Possible problems with Ripple:
1. Server owner able to manipulate stored IOU data to his/her advantage (either via a program flaw or roll-back of stored data, etc.)
2. Users able to send forged data to the data store indicating that another user is now in debt to the forger
3. Privacy issues regarding individual transactions and/or the database/data store in general (most often due to program flaws)
4. Authentication and verification issues (can a cracker simply brute-force a username/password set?)
5. Denial of service issues (can a pissed-off user "clog" or block access to your account? To the whole "bank"?)
... and many other considerations.
Ryan has updated the software. Now it allows interest and also you can delete your account, if you don't have a balance. Barterer I'm glad another liberty lover sees the power of this idea. Barterer, have you considered having a currency unit that isn't an actual currency. I look forward to the day when people trade "ripples" which floats against the FRNs.
Constant devaluation then? Woo! My favorite! 8-) One could fix this by connecting it to metals though or some other good/service.
Quote from: penguins4me on March 05, 2007, 12:07 AM NHFT
Possible problems with Ripple:
1. Server owner able to manipulate stored IOU data to his/her advantage (either via a program flaw or roll-back of stored data, etc.)
Sure, same as with any bank. Of course, people tend to check their balances and will come out with pitchforks and guns if you try to rip them off. This is a problem for those who don't know who is managing the bank.. that will change after I move to New Hampshire and more people begin to take me seriously.
Quote
2. Users able to send forged data to the data store indicating that another user is now in debt to the forger
If there's a way for a user to force a payment from another user, I'd like to hear about it.
Quote3. Privacy issues regarding individual transactions and/or the database/data store in general (most often due to program flaws)
This is the sort of thing I'm hoping you guys can help with. See if there are any privacy issues I may have overlooked.
Quote
4. Authentication and verification issues (can a cracker simply brute-force a username/password set?)
I don't know.. obviously a weak password can be forced in only a few guesses. I can increase the maximum password length if that becomes an issue.
Quote5. Denial of service issues (can a pissed-off user "clog" or block access to your account? To the whole "bank"?)
Yeah. For now, I would ask that you not DoS my little $12/month host, which would temporarily prevent others from accessing their accounts. The integrity of the accounts would be fine though. Hmm, maybe I will look into per-IP bandwidth allocation.
EDIT: Whoops, I forgot to thank you for your comments.. this is just the sort of constructive criticism I am looking for. I appreciate it. :)
Quote from: freeman4liberty on March 05, 2007, 12:54 AM NHFT
Ryan has updated the software. Now it allows interest and also you can delete your account, if you don't have a balance. Barterer I'm glad another liberty lover sees the power of this idea. Barterer, have you considered having a currency unit that isn't an actual currency. I look forward to the day when people trade "ripples" which floats against the FRNs.
Right on, I'm running 0.2. You may charge interest if you want, or just leave it at 0%.
As for other currencies, I thought of adding "Liberty Dollars" and would do so if not for the Liberty Dollar "splits" designed to keep LDs roughly equivalent to USD, which makes LDs pointless on the system.
I am also thinking of adding labor-hours and professional-hours for the labor of blue and white-collar workers.. but of course everyone's labor is worth a different amount/hour.
I appreciate your comments freeman4liberty, thanks!
Quote from: Barterer on March 05, 2007, 09:31 AM NHFT
Quote from: penguins4me on March 05, 2007, 12:07 AM NHFT
Possible problems with Ripple:
1. Server owner able to manipulate stored IOU data to his/her advantage (either via a program flaw or roll-back of stored data, etc.)
Sure, same as with any bank. Of course, people tend to check their balances and will come out with pitchforks and guns if you try to rip them off. This is a problem for those who don't know who is managing the bank.. that will change after I move to New Hampshire and more people begin to take me seriously.
Actually, that and the information disclosure is what turned me off Ripple in the first place. I very much hope you're successful in attracting people to local digital banking (Ripple or otherwise), because it helps pave the way for all sorts of interesting opportunities. To that end I'll probably swing by and donate later, rather than add an account that has zero credibility ;)
I re-read the Ripple FAQs last night, and many of the possible issues I'd listed should be viewed in the light that Ripple is a trust-based monetary system (amusing enough, as ALL of them are) - it works best when your personal friends are the only ones you grant credit to, hopefully friends you can trust to pay you back, as that's how it works.
The interesting aspect of Ripple comes from its automation of connecting the trust chain: Joe trusts me, Jane trusts Joe, Bob trusts Jane, Barterer trusts Bob, error trusts Barterer, Russell trusts error, and so I can buy something from Russell using a Ripple-type currency. The system's power comes from its connectivity - it's not nearly as useful or interesting if everyone uses unconnected, isolated Ripple servers within their own communities...
-edit
clarification
Quote from: Barterer on March 05, 2007, 09:31 AM NHFT
Sure, same as with any bank. Of course, people tend to check their balances and will come out with pitchforks and guns if you try to rip them off. This is a problem for those who don't know who is managing the bank.. that will change after I move to New Hampshire and more people begin to take me seriously.
If the "banker" minipulated my account, then I would just not honor the bad transactions or data.
Quote from: penguins4me on March 05, 2007, 06:51 PM NHFT
I re-read the Ripple FAQs last night, and many of the possible issues I'd listed should be viewed in the light that Ripple is a trust-based monetary system (amusing enough, as ALL of them are) - it works best when your personal friends are the only ones you grant credit to, hopefully friends you can trust to pay you back, as that's how it works.
Exactly. You have to seek out and extend credit to your friends, who extend credit to you. The onus is on the traders to set up trading rings. The system will hopefully reach a sort of "critical mass" beyond which it will work like cash, and we won't have to think so much about who is in what trading group. One way to speed this along (as Ryan is working on) is connecting ripple servers together. Once that is accomplished, and well-connected members of servers A and B extend credit to each other, the group is now much larger and more diverse. The bridge(s) of trust would still have to be made by users on each server. The beauty of it is, no matter how complex things get, you decide exactly how much to trust each member. Whatever the state of server connectedness/isolation, you can only lose to the extent that you miscalculate the integrity of your immediate trading partners.
Another way to speed things along is brokers. Notice the opportunity that is coming about here.. someone can easily open a paypal or e-gold account and open shop, converting ripple currencies into cash, gold, etc.. for a fee. Being able to actually get money out (not just goods/services from others) will go a long way toward promoting confidence in ripple.
I don't want to go off too much about this.. like I said, it's just the framework for the trading network I hope to build someday. The reason I announced it so early is so that you guys can test it and begin to set up rings and trades (real or imagined) if you want to. I'll see ya in about 1.5 years if all goes according to plan. :)
Quote from: Barterer on March 05, 2007, 09:42 AM NHFT
Right on, I'm running 0.2. You may charge interest if you want, or just leave it at 0%.
As for other currencies, I thought of adding "Liberty Dollars" and would do so if not for the Liberty Dollar "splits" designed to keep LDs roughly equivalent to USD, which makes LDs pointless on the system.
I am also thinking of adding labor-hours and professional-hours for the labor of blue and white-collar workers.. but of course everyone's labor is worth a different amount/hour.
I appreciate your comments freeman4liberty, thanks!
Good objection about liberty dollars. I was thinking the same thing as "labor-hours" only I wanted to call the unit "a ripple." Suggest to people that one ripple should be the cost of one unskilled labor hour, but allow the market do it's magic, so the value could change as circumstances change. I was thinking in the abstract that maybe a new macDonald's worker could be paid one ripple/hour and experenced worker could be paid 1.2 ripples/hour but nothirg rigid. If so a candy bar would be about .1 ripple. Ahh, remember the days when a little money bought a lot? Me niether, but it would be nice.
Tom Sawyer pointed me to this thread at PorcFest. I never heard of the Ripple system before, but it sounds like it has fantastic potential for the Free State! I have some questions:
- Barterer, what's the latest? The last post on this thread was over 3 months ago.
- Does anyone here actually know Barterer? No offense intended, just being properly paranoid. :)
- How many users does LibertyBrew currently have?
- Does the system go by real names, online handles, or both?
- Regarding turning off the email functionality, couldn't you leave that up to the choice of the users? For most transactions, I would probably like an email receipt. I'll just switch it off prior to buying a handgun from XYZ and selling a crackpipe to PDQ. ;)
- Can anyone think of downsides to such a system, other than the ones already mentioned by PowerPenguin?
Quote from: Friday on June 26, 2007, 05:25 PM NHFT
I never heard of the Ripple system before, but it sounds like it has fantastic potential for the Free State!
The idea came out of the "Swiss Economic Trading Circles" during the depression when credit was tight. Today the modern equivalent in Switzerland is called the "WIR Coop Bank" and trades about 1.8 billion Swiss francs annually. It is a paperless, credit clearing/bookkeeping system kept on a secure network that employs a debit cards at the point of purchase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR
This is interesting. Can u turn off the email notification/authorization, at least for now during testing.
So in a ripple economy, who owns the land? And how would one purchase it through trade? Instead of 900 dollars a month in currency, we would trade 40 hours of labor?
Never heard of this, but am definetly willing to understand it!
Hi Friday, thanks for reviving my old thread. Obviously I agree that the ripple concept has lots of potential for promoting free trade in the free state!
Quote from: Friday on June 26, 2007, 05:25 PM NHFT
- Barterer, what's the latest? The last post on this thread was over 3 months ago.
There's not much new to report.. I have not changed the way the site works or had any requests to do so (that I can handle).
Quote- Does anyone here actually know Barterer? No offense intended, just being properly paranoid. :)
I don't think any freestaters have met me personally, but some could probably vouch for my longstanding support. Ian Bernard knows me as an FTL amplifier, Alan Milner knows me as a Freedom Friends Tuath applicant, Kat Kanning knows me via a donation to the KFP, Lauren Canario probably remembers a letter I sent while she was briefly detained in Connecticut. These are not really "knowing" sort of things, but that's the best I can do remotely. Of course it's all internet hearsay, but Barterer might also be found at johnbilyeu.com, or on the "board of engineers" sites for Texas and New Hampshire. ;)
As far as Ripple goes, knowledge of my character doesn't matter. All of the trust is between the individuals who extend credit to each other on the system. Likewise, it doesn't bother me too much that I don't know anyone who has signed up to use the site. I have no idea if any transactions passed through it pertain to real-world goods and services being exchanged, or if users are just running tit-for-tat transactions (or transaction loops) to test it out. I encourage both types of activity.
Quote- How many users does LibertyBrew currently have?
Not counting the few accounts I set up to test chains of transations... 6. Pretty sad, huh?
Quote- Does the system go by real names, online handles, or both?
That is your choice. You can use your real name or just a handle. It's the responsibility of the users to verify, in real life, that DadaOrwell=Dave and Friday=Sandy etc. before trusting a particular user.
Quote- Regarding turning off the email functionality, couldn't you leave that up to the choice of the users? For most transactions, I would probably like an email receipt. I'll just switch it off prior to buying a handgun from XYZ and selling a crackpipe to PDQ. ;)
Yeah, if I didn't suck so bad at programming that wouldn't be difficult. But I almost died of frustration just learning enough about Python, PostgreSQL and Django just to get it running. I did request the optional email feature a while back, and it is cued up for development. In the latest source code release notes it says "ideas for things to work on: ... make email notifications optional and/or encrypt them with user's PGP key." And, not being a *complete* computer-dolt, I can find the lines of code that control emails and comment them out (so could accommodate your gun purchase) but the behavior would be the same for everybody. Since the main developer is focused on the P2P protocol that will drive future versions, the per-user email option will have to wait.
Quote- Can anyone think of downsides to such a system, other than the ones already mentioned by PowerPenguin?
The main downside is the one that the P2P development will solve. The fact that the site depends on one server and could be construed as a central "bank." This is enough to cause both users and bureaucrats to think it is some sort of rich target where actual value is stored, or where criminal activity could occur. But really, it's just an IOU tracking system that, like currency, simplifies trade.
Quote from: nonya on June 27, 2007, 12:44 PM NHFT
This is interesting. Can u turn off the email notification/authorization, at least for now during testing.
So in a ripple economy, who owns the land? And how would one purchase it through trade? Instead of 900 dollars a month in currency, we would trade 40 hours of labor?
Never heard of this, but am definetly willing to understand it!
Nonya,
I left the email authorization thing (to start a new account) enabled to prevent some smartass with a script from making thousands of accounts. So to get started, you have to hit the confirmation link which is sent to a unique email address. As a courtesy I'll PM you the confirmation email that bounced.
In a "ripple economy" the main thing that would change would be that people could conduct their business without the necessity of transferring so many coins, bullion or paper bills. Nothing about land or other property would change. Essentially we already live in a ripple economy, using paper bills as our primary medium of exchange. The problem is, these paper bills get counted as "income" and "sales" with taxes to be paid at every turn. By reducing the actual number of dollars changing hands, ripple cuts out the middleman.. who isn't so much a middleman as a thief.
As you can see by my username, I like the idea of bartering a lot, mainly because it trips up the government in its effort to rob you. There's no way to evaluate how much "value" changes hands when people just help each other out with even trades. When no actual money is exchanged, can you imagine some bureaucrat demanding that you to put a dollar amount on the (subjective) value you received, and pay him 30% of it?
Barterer is indeed an AMPlifier. I can't say anything further though.
Quote from: EthanAllen on June 26, 2007, 06:58 PM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on June 26, 2007, 05:25 PM NHFT
I never heard of the Ripple system before, but it sounds like it has fantastic potential for the Free State!
The idea came out of the "Swiss Economic Trading Circles" during the depression when credit was tight. Today the modern equivalent in Switzerland is called the "WIR Coop Bank" and trades about 1.8 billion Swiss francs annually. It is a paperless, credit clearing/bookkeeping system kept on a secure network that employs a debit cards at the point of purchase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR
That's really interesting; thanks for the link. I think this sort of thing would be more valuable if businesses started participating as well, which looks like what they're doing in Sweden. Even if every Freestater I know signed up, the truth is, most of them don't have the stuff I want to buy. hmmmm...
What do you want to buy?
Thanks for all the info, Barterer. Don't feel bad about only 6 people signing up so far. "The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step"... or... something.[/Butthead mode] By the way, when I first posted in this thread, I conflated your handle with your avatar and called you "Bartermonkey" repeatedly; you may need to change your name. ;)
So the guy who wrote the software is still actively working on it? I took a look at the Google discussion list and wasn't overwhelmed by the number of threads. Maybe this concept needs an evangelical blabbermouth... :icon_pirat:
Quote from: error on June 27, 2007, 08:36 PM NHFT
What do you want to buy?
Food, movie rentals, cafe mochas, clothing, gas... pretty standard stuff
Quote from: Friday on June 27, 2007, 08:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: error on June 27, 2007, 08:36 PM NHFT
What do you want to buy?
Food, movie rentals, cafe mochas, clothing, gas... pretty standard stuff
How about phone service (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=6253.0)?
Quote from: error on June 27, 2007, 08:44 PM NHFT
How about phone service (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=6253.0)?
I currently use Vonage, and would certainly consider transferring my business to help out a fellow Porcupine. Vonage is flaky; I've been told that people have called me when I know I was home, yet my phone never actually rang. I'm not too concerned with the security aspect; I try to speak clearly and enunciate to make it easier for the poor Feds who are forced to listen to my incredibly boring conversations. It's the least I can do. :)
Call me a month before your Vonage contract is up. :)
Quote from: Friday on June 27, 2007, 08:28 PM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on June 26, 2007, 06:58 PM NHFT
Quote from: Friday on June 26, 2007, 05:25 PM NHFT
I never heard of the Ripple system before, but it sounds like it has fantastic potential for the Free State!
The idea came out of the "Swiss Economic Trading Circles" during the depression when credit was tight. Today the modern equivalent in Switzerland is called the "WIR Coop Bank" and trades about 1.8 billion Swiss francs annually. It is a paperless, credit clearing/bookkeeping system kept on a secure network that employs a debit cards at the point of purchase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR
That's really interesting; thanks for the link. I think this sort of thing would be more valuable if businesses started participating as well, which looks like what they're doing in Sweden. Even if every Freestater I know signed up, the truth is, most of them don't have the stuff I want to buy. hmmmm...
The fastest growing food sector is farmers markets because people want to encourage local farmers and they want a personal relationship with them.
I tried to register, but got an error. We were talking about using your system for Shire Hours.
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=14400.0
everyone that I have connections with in the Shire Hours system, needs to up the credit limit with me in order for me to hand out some hours